American Reacts to Why the Dutch Wait Less at Traffic Lights
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2022
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Can I just point out that, as a Dutch person, my worst interaction with a traffic light isn't standing still at a red. It is the light turning green the SECOND you come to a full standstill😂
Haha so true!
What also is very annoying is the light turning orange after being green like 2 seconds😂
OMG soooooo true.
I have noticed this at lights near me in Scotland, I used to come up to a light on my moped, wait 5 minutes and then drive through the red onto the dual carriageway because the light clearly hadn't registered my presence, now I am approaching a light on my pedal bike and as I come to a stop, it will always turn green! It actually notices me on a bicycle! It is great! Although I have seen it let a car through and by the time I reach it, I'm too late and have to wait like 20 seconds to let a couple of cars through on the main road. It must be getting better locally if that is the most annoying thing that doesn't have 4 wheels!
If you drive a little unheralded the max speed 2 km/h, it's always green
.
Some traffic lights in the Netherlands also take into account the weather. When it's raining, the traffic lights give priority to cyclists and pedestrians, so they don't have to wait as long.
i wonder how they detect that. local sensors feel the rain or get the data from a server?
@@CMDRunematti I just looked it up. Mostly its done with local raindetectors on top of the traffic lights. But research is being done to see if they can use information from rain-radars.
Some traffic lights also contain infra-red sensors, to check how many pedestrians/cyclists are waiting and adjust the waiting time accordingly.
@@TheLA384 sounds like it'll get more and more complicated then... I fear if they make it do so much it'll be like Google - goes from working okay, to working well, and then working worse and worse... I only encounter one intersection with lights in my day to day tho, so I'll never know.
Information from rain radars would mean internet access, I'm not sure that's such a good idea
@@CMDRunematti I believe it all works like a charm and I'm confident that the people in charge won't go through with any change, if it doesn't improve the existing system or is a risk in any way.
But I will never know for sure, since I live way outside any city. I only encounter traffic lights when traveling by car. And most if not all of them are of the dumb kind. The fancy ones are mostly used in the bigger cities.
this is such BS that is not true at all idk where you are from but in venlo you can forget that and a lot of traffic lights there you need to wait so long its insane and i never have waited less when i was in the rain or whatever or pick the traffic lights in utrecht they are even worse just because they decided to keep the damn trams and lets not forget how fast the traffic light for the cyclists go from green to red its not even 5 sec and its already jumping to red or the traffic lights for walkers when it jumps to green you can walk and you are only half way through and it already jumps to red it doesnt even give you the proper time to walk to the other side without rushing lol
You should definitely do more reviews of Not Just Bikes! They are some of the best critical videos on how infrastructure should be setup to be more capable of supporting people getting from A to B. As an Australian, gotta say, it ain’t much better here with our infrastructure, although I’m glad the leading walk signal is in place as an almost standard feature.
Well i just seen this clip and i wanted to say exactly the same thing.
IIRC there is a video of why driving a car is better in Europe
Considering his most watched video has to do with trash collection
I’m so used to these traffic lights in Amsterdam I’ve never realized how smart they’re designed.
Not living in Amsterdam but yes i can 100% related, dont know who made these traffic lights but i do know he is a fricking god!
was a real culture shock when i started visiting other countries and realized i sometimes had to wait for 5 minutes or more for the light to turn green
@@turboslak why do you immediately assume it's a he? kind of weird
@@verasambience because engineering is a male-dominated field whether you like it or not.
Dutchy here, I live in the Hague, and if you have to wait 2 minutes for a traffic light it's extremely long.
Also, pedestrians are the most protected group in the traffic hierarchy, followed by bicycles and then in the last place are cars.
If you hit a pedestrian with your car, you're always in the wrong.
You don't want to hit a pedestrian or cyclist because it's going to cost you money, and drivers license points.
The last I waited 2 minutes (or longer) for a red light with my bike, was when a bridge was opened.. (Alkmaar)
In The Hague Loosduinseweg near De La | Reyweg is 2+ minutes. And feels like or you are getting older and gray at that point. The only place in the Netherlands that I think really takes too long. But has more to do with programmed traffic lights for public transport.
@@Fortapistone That, and the fact that seven roads cross at that point, with trams in three different directions. I prefer taking the tram if I need to go downtown from Loosduinen ;-)
@@SaskiaHoutmanKool Indeed, you're right. And crazy about that is that sometimes you have to wait for 4 to 5 public transport. If you are unlucky, because bus transport also crosses there and can take even longer.
When you hit a pedestrian with your car in the Netherland's you're not always in the wrong but just legally accountable. Cars all have insurance by law, pedestrians and bicyclists not.
I am from the Netherlands and I was absolutely shocked when visiting the USA (on many levels to be honest) but the car centric grid like cities were the most mind boggling to me and I believe a source of many other problems. It even scared me to be honest, it gave me a very uncanny unhuman friendly feeling. As if humans in general are on the second place. It feels like all prio lies in "more cars, bigger buildings, etc. Without thinking a second how humans actually interact with them.
And the funny thing is that even though the USA has cars as prio, it shocked me how bad the roads and urban planning are. The roads felt often bad, broken, (like we used to have in the Netherlands more decades ago). The super slow and unintelligent traffic lights, the lack of efficient driving rules, the seas of incrdebly unappealing parking lots everywhere, it felt sad.
To be super honest, I often feel like I can't take Americans seriously sometimes, due the choices the country seems to make, and unwillingness to learn from others. And then I haven't even started about the bad school systems, the laughable political system with only 2 parties, the scarily flawed judgements system, the lack of normal insurance. I could go on.
Sorry for the rant, this video made me want to share my perception. it's nothing personal to any American.
Helemaal mee eens!!
In the Netherlands the visitors of the Formula 1 GP come by bicycle and train. Peace between bikes and cars broke out a long time ago and that's a matter of culture that's essential to the infrastructure working.
Agreed. If the infrastructure allows it, people will walk and cycle.
The peace is because every car owner also owns a bike or once owned a bike, so he is a cyclist himself.
Car is in charge on the road. Bike is in charge on the street.
Car still needs to pay attention to the squishies on roads1, but they can keep rolling. Cars are free to go go go on the perfect highway net.
I am a Dutchie and Not Just Bikes made me appreciate the infrastructure much more. Before watching the channel I took it for granted, but now I see we are privileged in every form of transportation. Because The Netherlands is densly populated it is essential we have more forms of transportation/commuting than just the car.
We are not putting the car in the last place however. Where we can car traffic is given green flows to to avoid congestion and because the different forms of transportation are seperated the the traffic image for the driver is simpler, resulting in fewer accidents..Public transport is everywhere so you are less car dependent and often many times it is more efficient to use public transportation or the bike instead of the car.
When everyone is treated well, being in last place isn't a bad place to be :)
@@bramvanduijn8086 Nice philosophical thought!
Well, I am Dutch and NJB makes me realise there's a lot of work to be done near the border here in the Netherlands!
Most drivers blame pedestrians for crossing the road to slow and things like that, but what they fail to realize is as soon as they get out of the vehicle they become a pedestrian, one of those that they have just blamed for something.
BTW Ian don't forget BATHURST this weekend 🏎️
Also... I have never understood why the heck drivers gets annoyed at having to wait. They are after all sitting all nice and warm in their cars while the pedestrians have to endure whatever weather happens to exist outside. So I for one never get annoyed when pedestrians get the green light and I have to wait in my car. Let those poor people get out of the rain a bit faster, ok?
If it's a wide enough crossing and you can have 100 pedestrians crossing as a big block of people. Compare that with a line of 100 cars crossing that same road. And see what you want to wait for.
Thats why in US there are drive ins for everything
Totally recommend his ‘Why we won’t raise our kids in suburbia’ video and the Strong Towns playlist as a good place to start.
Also him explaining Stroads in that playlist… basically a street-road that tries to be both and fails at both while also being a heap more dangerous.
Was great to see this react video and that you are pro bikes and familiar with some of the issues.
Although as for those traffic lights that take forever, sounds like you really need a sensor for those so it can see where the vehicles are or aren’t in this case. I’m guessing it’s more of a cost priority basis on where they get installed, so maybe that could also be part of your issue and the US maybe has stuff like that but not everywhere.
Been following Not Just Bikes for ages and always worth watching. Once you watch a few of his (and RM Transit) you realise the deep seated planning flaws in the US.
So, another Dutchy here. Replying to what you mentioned at around 15min into the video, the reason why you have to wait longer at traffic lights even though traffic lights in the US give cars priority is because it's still a very inefficient system. Even though cars have priority, the traffic lights are still "stupid" meaning they're not able to change according to traffic sensors. This results in longer waiting times. Even though cars have the lowest priority over here, since the whole system is so efficient, waiting times for cars are still much shorter in general.
As a service engineer from the Netherlands who has to drive a lot everywhere. The dutch traffic lights are so much better, forget cyclists or pedestrians for a moment. The basic idea of removing conflict and keep traffic flow as high as possible is amazing.
The USA has a crumbling infrastructure, no serious money has been spent on it in decades. State and city councils don't want to spend money on it if they don't have to, especially since most are in enormous debt. The reality is most other developed countries spend double or even triple what the USA spends on infrastructure.
It depends on what kind of infrastructure. The road infrastructure, especially in cities, is insanely extensive.
The US'main problem is urban sprawl and zoning. Miles and miles of single family homes with gigantic yards in the middle of the cities without a single store in miles. It causes everything regarding infrastructure being extremely expensive because of the distances one has to travel to get anywhere, especially since it forces everyone into cars.
The federal government is in enormous debt too, with nothing to show for it.
Its crazy, living in the Netherlands all my life I assumed this was the way the majority of traffic lights worked around the world.
The thing that bugs me at traffic lights is when people don’t keep an eye on them and need a horn to tell them to get going 😡 hat’s off to the Dutch 👏
if it takes 2-3 minutes waiting for nothing, I can understand people start fiddling with their phone or radio and forget the light
Please use light signals first keeping the surroundings livable.
Then just a short tip on the horn PLEASE to avoid counter measures ...
And try not to let it spoil your day 💪🍀
Went to Morocco last summer. You didn’t have to look at the light, our driver didn’t, like ever! There was always someone beeping to signal it was green😂
especially when the are on their phone and don't pay attention to the traffic lights anymore. Sometimes they will just finish their msg first, despite traffic light turning green.
Huh, I don't really mind. I depart soon enough to make it in time to wherever I need to go by car & have my personal playlist on my radio. Won't let something like that ruin my day 🤔
I live in the Netherlands and traffic is verry efficient here and when i say traffic i mean all traffic not just cars, and i know that the Netherlands is a lot smaller then the states i'll get that but when i was in NY i saw a couple bikes but mostly cars cars and more cars and they all get stuck in traffic so traveling by car isn't any faster then biking that doesn't make sence to me why should i get in my car and spent more time traveling from a to b when i can get there faster and a lot chaeper with my bike......you guys put a man on the moon but a good working traffic light seems to be less important.......first learn to swim before you dive from a cliff into the ocean.......great to have a space station but it's even more great to have things on this planet work fine....great reaction btw and greetings from the Netherlands
We use these traffic flow dependant lights in the UK also. Sometimes a light will turn to red as you are approaching, but if nobody is waiting at the other light they'll change immediately back to green as it detects you about a hundred yards away. This reduces pollution by preventing the stop. If the traffic volume is higher for a particular direction, they will have more green time to move the traffic. There isn't such a big bicycle culture here however.
We also have far more roundabouts than traffic lights which speeds up traffic flow
These lights often don't detect cyclists,,have been cycling home at night I have to wave my arms at the sensor to get the lights to change.
@@seancollins2134 god roundabouts are AMAZING
@@seancollins2134 the Netherlands are also absolutely plastered with roundabouts with a big increase in turbo roundabouts over the past couple of years.
@@panchomcsporran2083 aren't the sensors in the pavement? Here they use a magnetic field to detect bicycles and other vehicles.
was a real culture shock when i started visiting other countries and realized i had to wait for up to 5 minutes for the light to turn green
During my Computer Science study I did an internship at a company that made the software for traffic lights at all kind of intersections. What we are doing here indeed sounds and looks logical. But it is actually very complicated. The first thing that occurred to me was the dazzling amount of variables that you have to work with. It's a really complex adaptive algorithm, especially when there are street level metro's, dedicated bus lanes, pedestrians and bikes. The last two are heavily protected by law here. Your first priority is to keep them safe and have them waiting as short as possible. After them comes the public transportation. They have a wireless transmitter that communicates through sensors with the central controller of the intersection. As soon a bus approaches, the whole situation is gonna change and the software must be prepared and equipped for that.
So the software starts to assess the current situation. Where exactly is the traffic and from which direction is it coming. Pressure plates in the ground knows how many cars went over it since the last cycle. But also how heavy they were and what the speed was. This way you can estimate breaking distance roughly. The bus approaches so the traffic lights that just went green are going to go to yellow and red sooner than expected, not everyone is prepared for that. If the system detected a truck going at roughly 50 KM/H, it is not easy to stop it very quickly so that light will keep green longer than when there's only a soccer mom in a Fiat panda approaching.
The most modern ones take also weather into account. There are pre-defined tables loaded into the software that have pretty accurate estimations on the added breaking distance of vehicles of a certain weight. By measuring the amount of water that is falling and also the temperature you can make the whole situation just a tad safer. Also traffic with a roof have to wait less in these conditions. All the small thing they think of have really add up to a better and safer flow of traffic.
Till this date, and I'm 42, one of the most fun and interesting things I've worked on.
I live in Poland and even there (we are far from The Netherlands in the technology) we have more and more AI and camera systems that allow us to cross a road or have a green light faster. It depends on the traffic, however last week I had yellow to leftturn and started slowing down but it turned green when I got closer! It's fantastic, especially in the netherlands where I have been for 8 days and it's true that their communication systems are efficient and accurate
Congrats! I am Dutch… it really works. The big thing in Dutch traffic is that law makes the stronger (read cars) are responsible for the safety of others (read cyclists and pedestrians).
Of course, one is responsible for his own safety as well.
POV from a Dutchman living abroad. Dutch traffic lights respond real quick to changing traffic. So much so they keep you hyper focused. Intersections are so efficient there's really no opportunity to relax. They force you to keep paying attention whereas in many other countries red light cycles can be so long you can basically have a nap. This also means people respond much quicker to a green light in The Netherlands increasing the efficiency even more. Driving in The Netherlands is a lot of fun. Dutch people complain a lot but they don't realize how good they have it.
Dutchy here, Most of the 'beg' buttons for bycicles are not connected, they install them to give the cyclists the idea that they have a bit of control in the sequence, but they are detected and are already 'known' to the traffic lights, but they are used to press the button.
And in my city (Apeldoorn) they are experimenting with prioritizing the cyclists even more when it rains, because people in cars have a roof above them and won't get wet while waiting for the traffic lights, but cyclists will get wet...
In the USA you often have to wait 3 minutes for a red light without traffic coming from other directions because in those areas the traffic lights work in a cycle. The cycle gives each section - for example - 1 minute of time to pass the intersection. Meaning there are 3 minutes before each light turns green again after turning red. Those intersections don’t use any sensors to detect any traffic coming from any direction. I call this traffic lights of the 60’s.
Now I am really curious what you would define as a reasonable distance 😅
Because, as a Dutchie, I can tell you, here, 10 miles to go on a (not electric) bike to work is considered to be a very reasonable distance for most of us. (We don't áll do thát, but there are still ten thousands at least that will do that on a daily base, and no one will think they're odd for doing so)
15 or 20 miles, just for fun, on a sunny Saturday is considered to be normal, even for the elderly.
Then, we don't really gó somewhere, the ride itself is what the whole point is.
Going wherever we want to, as we go...
Our traffic lights and bike lanes help a lot, also we're almost programmed to do so.
Our first bike comes with trainingwheels, mostly when a child is 2 years old.
They are considered pedestrians and go along with their walking parents. (Also walks nowhere, just to "train" them, or walking the dog, or go to a store nearby for a couple of items)
As soon as a child turns 4, most parents take the trainingwheels of, and give them a push in a park on the grass, so they don't bruise too much when falling down a couple of times 😂
After they get the hang of it, traffic rules are learned alongside a grown-up on the bike lanes.
Kindergarten starts at 4 for 2 years, if they're 6 and still use the trainingwheels, there is something wrong with the kid (not trying to be harsh here)
In traffic young children learning, will get their place on the road.
Why ?
Everyone with a drivers licence has at least 14 years of experience with using the bike lane in traffic. So as soon as they start to drive, they already know where the bikes are or will come from, and how they will react in traffic. (Also, you will absolutely NOT pass your exam for your drivers license if you're not observant enough... You can drive perfect, but didn't use the mirrors enough, or forgot to look over your shoulder after checking the mirrors first, before turning, and you will fail your exam, and taking them is unreasonably expensive.)
An elderly that has difficulties getting up or of a bike, won't stay of the streets, they simply get up at a point where it is safe, and if they are turning somewhere, they will just point in the direction they want to go, and trust the traffic around them to not kill them. They often don't even take the risk of looking over their shoulder and crash, they simply go, trusting the cars they'll get it.
Students don't even point (they should, but 🤷🏼♀️) but instead of the elderly, they mostly will look to find a way to squeeze themselves through 😂 and it almost always works.
As long as you aren't doubtful about what you're going to do, most other traffic will give you exactly that much space you need (and not half an inch more, so be sure or wait.)
I live in Britain and cycle a bit. 15 or 20 miles is my average sort of distance for a leisure ride, and I used to cycle to work which was about 5 miles away.
The advantage you have in the Netherlands is that it is much flatter than a lot of places. I don’t live in a part of Britain noted for its hills, but even here a 20 mile ride can involve climbing 300 metres and the occasional stretch steeper than 10%. It’s hard work if you are not fit!
The other advantage you have, of course, is your much better infrastructure! Ours is pretty abysmal…
@@cerdicw9998 try riding a bike in Limburg (province known for its hills) apart from limburg its mostly flat, thats true... 👍
you do know that a mile and a Km are not the same right?
BIG difference between biking 10 miles and 10 K's
@@viincanity yes, I most certainly do know that... And math isn't a problem either 😉
40 k is just a 2 hour fun ride...
I didn't even exaggerate 😆
When my son was 6 years old, we went for a ride every evening after dinner. Small circles of 5 k. We often let him decide to do one extra, often he said yes 😆
@@cerdicw9998 Electric bikes solve that problem
Intelligent traffic lights are common in Finland too, although in most cities the road design is still very much car centric. One thing to note is that in most cities here the lights turn green well in advance for approaching ambulances and fire trucks when they have their signals on. This minimizes the risk of somebody colliding with a rescue vehicle at intersections.
Also, although this is pretty basic everywhere, the lights are programmed to favor inbound traffic in the mornings and outbound traffic in the afternoon to assure smooth(er) commute. If you are driving towards the city at seven am and keep to the speed limit, you most likely get a green wave and so on.
Dutch guy here went a couple of days to finland last year. Not going to say it was of the level we got in the Netherlands but i can agree that at least the major city´s have good system also the public transport in Helsinky was pretty good (i rented a car went i beyond youre beutifull capital). I did feel very safe driving and walking over there so Kudo's to you.
Intersections near me that weren't on the main road often would not change at all if you were on a motorbike, the sensors just could not see you, so you'd just go through the red after a while as you knew a green was not going to come! Now the lights near me change when I approach on a pedal bike! It is great! They actually see me coming on a bicycle and turn the lights green for me! For Scotland, that is like a dream come true!
We bow to the holy god of “flow”. Flow is the keyword for traffic. The best experiment I’ve seen is with a circling traffic train of cars causing a traffic jam and how difficult it becomes to get them running again. Disturbing the flow the least as possible makes the traffic as efficient as possible
From the Netherlands here, but more important raised in the city of Almere. I had cycle 7km to my highschool, being on the other side of the city. I had to go through the city center, but I still only passed 2 traffic light and those were for busses only and not cars, so most of the time I didn't need to stop.
To give a bit more information about the city, it is close to Amsterdam but it is a fairly new city founded (from the top of my head) somewhere 50 years ago. All the infrastructure is modern and well planned with great public transport, cycling lanes and decent routes for cars. Most of the time you are as fast or faster with the bike somewhere as with the car within the city.
Even cycling to Amsterdam from that city isn't to bad, there are cycling roads to Amsterdam and it is 25km travel. But most people will take public transport or the car over cycling to Amsterdam.
Cities have the ability to not only save tine, but gasoline wasted while waiting for a light. I know that in the 80s in Frankfurt Germany, you could almost drive across the center of the city without stopping, as long as you were on main roads. Plus they have a lot of training before they get a license.
There’s no ‘jaywalking’ law in the UK. The only roads with no pedestrians are motorways (interstates). I can walk across any road, anytime as long as I take care. Which makes it weird when Americans say they’re free! They’re not even allowed to walk on a road!
It seems from your description how traffic lights in North America work that many of them do still have quite old relais or PLC controls, which just run trough a sequence with fixed times and start over again when the sequence is done, controlling all lights of one direction at a time.
That is how traffic lights in the Netherlands did work 40 years ago.
The Dutch traffic lights are now mostly controlled by computer control which use algorithms to operate the lights independent and depending on amount and speed of traffic approaching from each direction and like stated, even weather conditions.
On roads which are mainly used by cars often several intersections will be linked up to form a green wave at a given speed, ensuring a steady flow of traffic in the busiest direction, this way more traffic will flow trough in the same amount of time as only the first signal will stop and start the traffic in that direction.
Busses and trams have GPS controlled transmitters sending a signal when approaching a traffic light, the signal is picked up by the controller and it will interrupt the normal algorithms and keep the direction from where the bus or tram comes green, giving priority to public transport.
One thing they have put in here in Australia is the 2 stage pedestrian crossing where the main thoroughfare is very wide both ways so that you cross the road to the centre traffic island and then you get a second pedestrian crossing to the other side so that the traffic lights aren't red for excessive length of time for the pedestrian crossing to go all the way across non stop.
The Dutch lights,and Australian lights have loops under the road in front of the lights. If there is no traffic on the cross street, then your presence is detected and the light turns green. If cars are constantly detected on both cross streets, then the timer is in play. Timer and loop are both setup to include the pedestrian button.
What always surprises me is that in the USA all electrical cables are above the ground instead of under the ground. With every storm or tornado you are without electricity.
I'm subscribed to Not Just Bikes and they are a very interesting channel since I'm studying urban planning at uni
I also waited like 3 minutes once at a Dutch traffic light, but eventually I realised that I drove over the badly placed road sensor and I just had to move 10-15 cm backwards...
Traffic lights in America have a commecial componient. Intersections with major chains generally have a slightly longer red, to induce impulsiveness to buy that treat, snack or trinket. Also, waiting at traffic lights also benifits the fuel industry.
We have a similar system in the U.K, and I feel your pain in regard Traffic lights in the States. I travel over there a lot and the light phasing is really abysmal.
Not Just Bikes is trustworthy in his videos, he does do good research, and I can hardly ever find anything which isn't accurate.
I work for a municipality and know much effort, and money, is invested in good intelligent traffic lights.
Most of them are coordinated from a central point and can be managed according circumstances, when more traffic is expected for a festival or big event that route gets more green to prevent jams.
When there is no traffic, in the middle of the night, all lights are red, and the loop in the road activates green ahead of arrival, so the one who comes first can go on without stopping, whether pedestrian, bicycle or car. Waiting time is zero seconds.
Because all intersections are connected, the next crossing 'knows' someone is approaching and they will get green just in time when they respect the local speed limit. So when the amount of traffic is low, there is no waiting time for anyone.
It is a very strange mindset that intelligent, sensor activated, traffic lights are bad for cars, all road users benefit from this efficiency.
Many drivers seem to enjoy waiting at red lights, and rush up to them. If the lights are red for me I slow down, and very often the lights will go green before I arrive so that I don't need to stop. Sometimes I can overtake someone who has just overtaken me in a rush to get to the red lights, which is very satisfying!
I always thought that I was the only one that does this and think like this 😉.
@@musictolive4 Coincidentally, Ashley Neal makes the same point today! th-cam.com/video/x3-FkqTR0zw/w-d-xo.html
@@Alan_Clark Thanks for your suggestion. That's a good one!! 👍
in the UK we try to design out traffic lights by putting in roundabouts where possible, as you approach the roundabout you must give way to anything going around the roundabout for congested junctions they put in lights as necessary we also try to design out stop signs, however when one is needed people are ignoring them as they are not common
Here in Florence, SC the edge of town is under 10 miles to the opposite edge, which absolutely a reasonable distance to bike, especially on an e-bike.
But as you mentioned, the lack of infrastructure makes it incredibly scary (and dangerous).
The only reason I ride in town is because I’m a bit of an adrenaline junkie.
The video is very accurate. As a Dutch person, our system makes so much sense that I'm actually surprized it's not universal! HOW DOES ANYTHING OTHER THAN THIS MAKE SENSE?!
Making sense is NOT the issue. The issue is what one is USED TO, one's habituations.
@@user-gx1rk8yw6l, well, yeah, but *because* it makes sense, it would be logical to develop a similar system from the start, eliminating the issue of being used to something else
@@Jan_Koopman Actually, quite a few cities in the USA had a wonderful public transportation system a century ago. That was trashed in fsvour of the almighty automobile (& those who made money from the car)via a lot of hype. So now the USA-ers must become UN-used to a CAR-centric system & RE-used to a PEOPLE-centric system. [sigh...]
Logic plays no role here.
Here in Czechia we have from time to time traffic lights with traffic detection (with cameras) and it will give you green light if other directions are empty. BUT, in some cases, it will give you a RED light f you go faster than speed limit, even if it's few km/h. As soon as you stop,it will give you green again.I even remember a village,where they have traffic lights on a straight road; it's actually marked with a sign saying it will stop speeding cars.
I love this guys energy. Just how fascinated he is and the way he match to learn more about the world outside of the US.
I kust loooooove our Dutch smart traffic lichts. Happens all the time. That I'm the only car. Red light, and even before I have to down shift, the light turns green because it senses me comming and the crossing lanes being empty. And EVERY time it makes me smile😊😊😊
In the US I had the amazing experience of not getting served at a drive-through restaurant because I was on a bike and not in a car. Talk about car centric ...
That Dutch system is awsome and beats our systems in the UK into a Top Hat, but at least we don't allow people to drive right (or left) when the Lights are Red . We do have Left Turn filters, but that is a Green arrow which is really just a separate traffic light. But hey, we practically invented the Roundabout and we excel at those with several Magic Roundabouts, 6 or 7 little ones all around a central one :) We even have Roundabouts with Traffic Lights ;) The Lights you are experiencing long delays on , sounds like they are only on a timed circuit and don't have the sensors to overide the timing. We have some (mostly temporary ones for Roadworks) where you can cheat. The design is supposed to be for Emergency Vehicles only, where there is a sensor that picks up if you have your headlights on Full Beam or are flashing them and it changes quickly to let the emergency vehicles through :) but we are not supposed to know that
me might be competing for that roundabout title tho. They're VERY popular in The Netherlands too.
Those "big" roundabouts with traffic lights are sooo useless and confusing if you're going onto one you haven't gone onto before though.
I get really excited from your reaction videos to Dutch traffic sytems! I can't comprehend having to wait 3 minutes for a red light. As a dutch car driver or as a dutch cyclist in small cities, I feel like I rarely have to wait more than a 60 or 90 seconds.
There is a video from Ontario Traffic Man called "How to shorten red light clearance times without reducing safety" that explains it more indepth. How the timings work, how the sensors work and how the clearing times works.
WAITING 3 MINUTES AT A TRAFFIC LIGHT WHAAAAAAT THATS MINDBLOWING
im from the netherlands
Dang... In the Netherlands the traffic lights are only getting smarter. One of the things i did not know is that the push buttons for bicycles at traffic lights are only psychological and do not actually work. All roads have 'loops' (lussen in Dutch, not sure how to translate), so if anyone nears a traffic light, you are getting into the priority list.
When i started programming about 30 years ago it was indeed turn N S green for 2 minutes, then turn E W green for 2 minutes. Now there is actually some smart systems behind it here
Everything is too far away for bicycles in the US because everything is extremely big. We are used to smaller houses, smaller gardens, smaller stores, smaller roads. So everything is more compressed and thus the distances are doable
Most lights in the city nowadays are by-default green for bicycles and red for cars. That means that when there's no traffic at all, car lights are red and bicycle lights are green. This means cyclists can just go without any interference on intersections.
I noticed that there is a set time of day that affects the timing intervals of when the lights change in peak and off peak traffic times. In our area it's off peak around 9pm to 5:30am where you come to a side street stop and the lights immediately go orange for the thoroughfare lights so you can enter the main street in seconds from stopping at the lights. After 5:30am the lights change to peak times mode and you will be waiting for the lights to turn red on the main street until they are good and ready and not a second earlier....even though there's hardly any cars driving through at the time. That's annoying because they could've changed 3 times in the time space and it would have been no issue for anyone else on the road at the time.
I'm Dutch but live in Germany, here (Germany) you have two options when you turn right or left: if you get a green arrow, you're the only one crossing (in the car) if it is a normal green light, you have to check for pedestrians or cyclists (who have right of way), and doing left, for oncoming cars crossing straight.
4:00 Town centers should not be designed with the same priorities as interstate highways.
3:00 I remember an edutainment show in the 90s (in the Netherlands; Klokhuis I think) where they showed the switchboard for a set of traffic lights. It really was a printboard computer, in a box, on the side of the road.
We're now 25 years on, and most of that tech has been even further optimized. *Networked.*
10:02 - In Netherlands there is round light and arrow -> light.
O light means that if you turn, you will need to give way to all "straight moving traffic" (cars, cyclists, or pedestrians).
-> arrow light means you turn unimpeded (there will be NO other cars, cyclists, or pedestrians.)
You know what else is logical?
The metric system.
The US just wants to do things their own way, and often not for the better.
In addition, we have many traffic control centers in the Netherlands, all of which work together to keep traffic moving smoothly... there are people there 24 hours a day to improve the flow of traffic... (I do this work myself)
Part of the reason for your long wait times at traffic lights is that, because there is so much traffic, the lights are optimised for throughput rather than wait times. Every time the lights change, there needs to be a period when the intersection is empty to allow the traffic from one direction to clear before the other direction starts. The more frequently the lights change (i.e. the shorter the wait times), the larger the proportion of time that is wasted, and therefore the lower the overall throughput of the intersection.
Also, larger intersections (more lanes) means the dead period needs to be longer to allow more time for the traffic to clear. This further incentivises the system designers to lengthen the cycle times.
Lights in the netherlands rarely have red clearance time and sometimes they have negative clearance time.
There are also cases a light turns green, while the crossing lane is still allowed to drive (being yellow). Not for long of course, just a second for the time it takes a car to accelerate from a standstill to actually start crossing the intersection.
In urban regios (in The Netherlands) traffic lights are not only 'smart' per intersection, but all main intersections are also connected to one big network.
A simple example is, when cars get green , the next intersection they will reach knows these cars are coming to its direction , and will priorities green light for these comming cars so they dont have to stop but can move on, a so called 'green wave' . Racing from one intersection to another wont have any use as the gren wave is calculated based on the normal speed for that traject ( acceleration + max speed) .
An other example is, a center of a town only can handle a certain amount of traffic, when more traffic is allowed to enter the center it will result in a traffic jam inside that center. Solution is to add some seconds more red light to the incoming traffic. Same for traject. Its not of much use to give green light when the next traject has a traffic jam.
The funny thing is, all these technics and ideas comes from diverse metropolis of the United Stated who did a lot of studies into it in the 70's of last century. (and also applied it in a certain way)
Something he doesn't cover in that video but does in a different one is that we don't have the long delay between lights in one direction going red and the lights in the other direction going green.
They are done based on the fact that in the time it takes you to actually react to the green light and pull into the intersection the other car will have cleared, on wide intersections where there is more than one lane they actually stagger the green so the cars in the left lanes can start moving a fraction soomer since that lane will clear first.
It gives the effect to the untrained eye that people are running the red when in fact they are not it's just timed properly.
There is another reason that we, the Dutch, don't wait as long for traffic lights and it is 'red light clearance times'.
Ontario Traffic Man did a video about it which I found very informative.
th-cam.com/video/7KPGVP85WpU/w-d-xo.html
I am 70 years old and still bicycle in traffic in the Netherlands , it's safe because drivers also cycle .
In Denmark we normally have "Green Lines" which are adjusted to the speed in which the cars drive, so they hardly have to stop at any time. And sensors which find out if some comes from the side.
The traffic lights in the US all favour cars,
However, that doesn't take away the fact that your light cycle is unnecessarily slow,
effectively what happens in a lot of US intersections is, check for 1 direction whether the light needs to be green or red,
Then wait the pre-coded time if green, then turn red again, then if the light is red (which it'll always be because of dumb sequencing) wait an additional amount of time to make sure any late crossers have passed the entire intersection.
Then check the next direction, starting from step 1.
This is extremely inefficient, because it is waiting for cars to cross, even if there's no cars crossing.
That is why you have to wait literal minutes, because the system says the imaginary cars need to cross first,
And most importantly, if you missed your 6 second window in these 3 minute cycles you need to wait for the entire cycle to complete.
It's legitimately the dumbest system, all it is good for is cutting costs. (tho only if we disregard the increased levels of road rage and illegal crossing these light have been shown to cause)
Edit: according to my estimations it would be more than 3 minutes per cycle,
But the green light and crossing delay differ per intersection.
So your window might be 3 seconds out of 7 minutes,
Or it might be 6 seconds out of 2 minutes,
But on average 6 seconds out of 3 minutes seems to be most accurate baseline.
Tho longer cycles and/or shorter windows are apparently fairly common due to crappy intersection design.
I'm a brit who lives in the Netherlands. My mother country has a big chip on its shoulder about cyclists and red lights, out of an alleged concern for safety. As you've seen, it's less of a problem here: a red light for a cyclist usually means that there's a car coming and so you stop. At the very least, road design usually leads to visibility being high so a highly manoeuvrable bicycle can make an informed judgement about the level of safety that would come with crossing the red light.
I believe there are states in the US (ISTR Oregon, could be wrong) where it is the case, or it has been proposed that cyclists may treat red lights as yields rather than stops, but I can't remember fully off the top of my head, and it may be just for turning right.
Also, in the segment at the end you talk about optimization and how it appears that optimization for drivers leads to a sub-optimal implementation, whereas the Dutch optimization for all leads to better implementation for all. There seems to be a feeling in the zeitgeist of the UK and I'm guessing the USA as well that if a solution would give some class of people a benefit that they don't "deserve", then that solution is discarded in favour of one that is just worse for everyone. It's a really depressing mode of thought, IMO, and I'm so happy that the Dutch infrastructure and culture doesn't bow to that sort of thinking often.
It is also just so much more relaxed and safe as a driver. You can TRUST that there won't be any traffic in your way when you turn. (Unless someone runs a light, of course.)
I had lived in the Netherlands for a couple of years when I had to make a business trip to Berlin. I almost had a crash when turning left into a street: the traffic from the oncoming direction ALSO had a green light at the same time and had the right of way as they were not turning... That would never happen here.
Also in many other countries, some stoplights are purely time-based, whether there are cars there or not. So you can really stand still there for five minutes waiting for no one. The other end of the spectrum is: when people who are used to THAT kind of lights come here, they can be caught off guard how quickly the lights here change because they sensed their car waiting and no other traffic around. So it can happen that you are standing still for maybe two seconds before you get the green again and the foreign drivers won't move because they expect to wait for a couple of minutes and are looking on their phone etc. With the typical Dutch directness, however, they will be "woken up" with a short honk from your horn... 😉
These lights are the same where I live in the UK if no traffic give priority where traffic is a no brainer
I'm a Dutchy, living in Germany since 2000. It's not as bad as in North America but it definitely ain't close to the Netherlands either. There are way too many stoplights where your time is just wasted because it's red although no other traffic in sight. And there are some stoplights that turn red and than 1 second later back to green just because they have to do a cycle I guess.
Most of the trafficlights don't really use sensors though and many pedestrian lights have buttons which do almost nothing except make sure you will be included in the cycle. Still gonna be waiting for nothing or just like for 3 minutes until your time finally has come. Occassionally you come across a well thought out system but that's like winning the jackpot xD
In Australia traffic lights 🚥 are like a lucky dip some lights seam to take for ages & other times the lights are so quick you don't get a chance to drive through them it's ridiculously frustrating 😤.
A lot of the traffic light here in western Sydney have radar on them so the traffic can flow until someone needs to come out of a side street or at an intersection 👍🏻
Awesome in the morning commute before traffic really starts flowing because all the lights are just green, green, green. The issue of course is when you stop accounting for extra time and you get a red. XD
They don’t have radar, they just prioritise the main road. The default setting is to show green for the main road until a vehicle drives onto the in road sensor on the side street. This isn’t a western Sydney things it’s the default type of traffic light all across every city and town in Australia.
Look on the road before almost any traffic lights and you will see these grey lines on the road. That’s the sensor.
Here in The Netherlands as a bicyclist you can go through red lights but you can't cross the road where cars drive (for obvious reasons) its only allowed when you're going to the left or right which automatically counts as going straight along the road (even though you make a left or right turn) since all you're doing is follow the road
in America car companies own the government and made all other transportation illegal including walking
More and more trafficlights for bikes now have rain sensors. I've only been to Canada and America both once, but what i love is that your traffig lights are across the road, and not directly above you. That's much more relaxed. Easier to see.
That's actually a feature to keep cars outside of intersections. When lights are on the other side of the road, cars end up stopping too far to get that tiny bit closer to their destination.
It's so bad that stop lines are usually meters away from the actual intersection and 99% of the time, the first car in line is fully in front of the line, back bumper and all. Not Just Bikes talks about this very phenomenon in another video.
Right on red is a rule for some major intersections in the Dutch city of Groningen... but only for the bike lane (and usually there is no official pedestrian crossing immediately to the right, and there will be a cycling lane on the road to the right so the cars and cyclists stay separated). Additionally, the end of the video hints at the biggest/busiest intersections in Groningen have lights that turn green for cyclists from/to all directions at once. Collisions very rarely happen (I've never seen an incident with people falling), because people know to be careful.
This is mostly in cities though. In my city there's a traffic light that will sometimes stop all traffic in the middle of the night and have 3 people waiting for several minutes for nothing at all...
Mine detects bikes and is prety fast
If i see these vids i’m happy i’m from the Netherlands, beside our trafficlights our public transport is really good and accurate. A lot of stations have 4 to 8 trains per hour going to the bigger city’s, sidenote: in our smaller regions it decreases to 1 to 2 trains/bus/other public transport. A fun fact we have a naggy culture even if we’re having a happy life.
@Ed209 😂 wanneer ben jij voor het laatst met het openbaar vervoer geweest? 20 jaar geleden?
the dutch system is a joy . funny thing is most of them don't realise how much better it is on their roads . coming from belgium . you can close your eyes and feel when you cross the actual border
and they've been doing it for so long it's a shame it's not a standard
Wow that's the third vid from you in less than two days about us, the Dutch. You mentioned sensors in traffic lights for ambulances aso. Well, most traffic lights have sensors, usually running in the ground. Safety first and it reduces road rage.
Greetings from Netherland
A lot of these systems came in place exactly because of safety and happy to report they work. This is why kids at ages below 10 can be on bikes going to school.
as a follow up, i think you should also watch the video called _How to shorten red light clearances without reducing safety_ by Ontario Traffic Man.
it dips into another reason why US traffic lights are inefficient which was not addressed in this video.
heres a link to that video:
th-cam.com/video/7KPGVP85WpU/w-d-xo.html
NJB shows in his video what the dutch traffic lights do, Ontario Traffic Man explains how these lights do it. Both videos are very interesting.
simple magnetic metal detecting cable or weight sensing cables in the roads to detect cars, can solve allot of waiting.
those cable can also be used to detect drivers passing a red light, and make a foto, you get automatic a bill...lol
some busses transporting people and trams even have transmitters to activate a traffic lights so they don't have to stop, so some cars stay close behind them...
We even have traffic lights on major public transport routes which prioritize green lights for busses and trams.
Right on red is allowed for bicycles on all intersections, unless there is a traffic light for bicycles at an intersection.
In Holland you can call out these things at your counsel and they have a lol at it. Also at your last example you would have to wait longer because, as the walking people on the right where not able to cross at the same time as the left was going, you now have to wait extra time to let them crossover. So yes in this example you would wait extra time that was not needed.
I think one of the best inventions we have here in the netherlands is ZOAB (zeer open asfalt beton) and it only benefits cars and people lifing near the road.
It reduces sound and has way beter visability during rain as the rainwater sinks into the road.
We have such signals in Sweden that count down until it turns green, but they are very rare. In Sweden, we have something else that speeds up traffic, called green wave. Slightly larger roads have the traffic signals synchronized, so if you drive at the permitted speed, you will have a green signal all the time. If you drive faster, you reach the next intersection too early and have to brake. if you drive more slowly, it will have time to change to red again. But if you drive at the permitted speed, when you get to the next intersection it switches to green just in time for you to get there.
In Sweden they don't optimize for any particular type of traffic, they optimize to have as few accidents as possible.
The Netherlands is one of the most densely populated countries in the world. More people per square kilometer than e.g. India and China with 518 people/km2
while the USA has 36 people/km2.
The Netherlands is flat so it is easy to cycle there and it is extremely expensive to park in the big cities. You have to admire the Dutch for how good they are at farming. While in Sweden they have grass and trees between the high-rise buildings, in the Netherlands they drive tractors and cultivate between the houses.
In Sweden, they normally revoke your driver's license for 4 months if you drive against a red light. If you drive without a valid driver's license in Sweden, you are in a really bad place and can then have to wait 2 years before you can start driving school and retake all the tests again (the cost of getting a driver's license alone is significant).
That "green wave" is also well-known in Spain. But if you go too fast, then the next light WILL be RED, AND REMAIN RED FOR ABOUT DOUBLE THE NORMAL TIME. This gives other traffic the chance to GLARE ANGRILY at the 1st car at the light, the too-fast driver...
Not Just Bikes is a really good and authorive channel
The distances are the difference. In the Netherlands you could bike across the country in 4 days. If you take it slow. Everything is so crammed up here. Smart traffic lights are a necessity.
The ONLY problem that *I* had in bicycling in The Netherlands was that despite all roads being horizontal & flat, one ALWAYS drove INTO the wind, WHATEVER direction one faced...🤣
an interesting thing about dutch intersections is that some intersections stop regulating traffic at certain times. i've had experiences where I had to start work at 7 am so I had to bike at 6:30, and the traffic lights would flicker yellow to indicate that it was a 'enter at own risk' type of situation. this kind of surprised me at first, but then I realized that there was just too little tragic to regulate in an efficient way. the one car or one bike at each stop light would take to much time to orderly cross the road. so until traffic starts flowing, you have to treat it like any other intersection without stop lights
5:30 Nah, it is fucking amazing. i wish we had something ike this in Romania, but with our infractusture I know it will never be a thing.
The only similar function be have, but very rare, is crosswalks. You push a button to activate a crosswalk, and make the cars traffic light red.
If you press it and a certain time passed after the previous time, it will stop the cars immediately and green for people.
here in Dubai we have sensors and pressure plates that detects roughly how many cars are stopped at this traffic lights and opens up the one with the most cars but some traffic lights depends only on pressure plates which can be flawed because if a semi truck is stopping at that light it would detect it as 4 or 5 cars and sometimes when i ride my motorcycles i have to stop where the pressure sensors grooves are on the road . But the good news is that the pressure plates depended traffic lights are getting upgraded to sensors and plates.
Interesting that you call it "pressure plates" as AFAIK these are mainly induction loops that detect a vehicle.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_loop
I am living at the coast in the Netherlands, also the rain detection there are also some routes that detect wind so that cyclists do not have to stop and the time the green light is on for them is doubled
In Groningen (northern Netherlands) we don't have count downs in numbers but it's a vertical bar next to the lights. Even if it moves slow it helps to see it's still moving. Because you know the system is aware of you and you know you'll probably only stand there for like 30-40 seconds when it's moving at its slowest. That "they haven noticed me" things helps keeping people from running red lights because you have that visual feedback that the system is working for you. It's super neat. It's not 100% common though. But most big cities have this.
Just come over to the Netherlands and experience 'our' trafic-lights yourself on a bicycle ;) .
I'll show you around Emmen if you like, even let you walk or ride a bike busy intersections during rush-hour
in australia we have crossings or walk cross some of the lights have a countdown so you have to get across in that time before the traffic lights turn green and i noticed in america your traffic lights are horizontal
We've had some crazy accidents here in the Netherlands though, because cars who want to turn right are supposed to stop at a green light (!) to check for bicycles on the path next to them - who are also given a green light to go straight. Obviously not all drivers know that rule, and automatically turn right without checking. For example foreign drivers, who are not aware. I don't want to sound like a Dutch perfectionist, but it shouldn't be hard to arrange this in the system. But I'm sure engineers are looking at it.