Thank you both for a great discussion. This issue has been giving me headaches for years, and I've never really resolved it fully. I've parked it for more than 10 years, but now after seeing this episode it resurfaced. Unfortunately my conclusion after studying the texts of acharyas before Bhaktivinod Thakur is that the sambandha jnana in Gaudiya Vaishnavism was never thoroughly developed and that the consensus was unclear. Baladeva Vidyabushana, Vishvanath Chakravarti thakur and Jiva Goswami however agree that the bondage of jiva with maya/karma is anadi (beginningless). They also agree that for the beginningless conditioning of a jiva no one is to be blamed (nor jiva, nor Krishna). It's just the way it is. Some add that this is the sweet will of the Lord. He is Lilamaya, Lila-purushottama, so for that purpose he also engages in the lila of the material creation and while nitya-siddha jivas have their position in the eternal spiritual reality and spiritual pastimes, we, the nitya-badha jivas have our position in his lila of this external manifestation. One devotee commented on this: "I hate being in the loosers camp. Right." So, the previous acaryas stated, that our conditioning with maya is anadi and that no one is to be blamed for this. It's neither our fault, nor Krishna's. The question of course is, who pressed the button that got the wheel of karma spinning :) Bhaktivinod Thakur was the first one who introduced time and space into this issue - the tatastha region. According to this theory the tatastha jivas are made weak and are bereft of cit-shakti, therefore they are prone to be covered by maya. In fact, as some point (Bhaktivinoda) stated that ALL tatastha jivas are disposed into maya. This theory has a problem, because Krishna "created" the tatastha jivas weak / bereft of cit-shakti. And it also is problematic, as Maharaj stated in the video, that it is contrary to the fact that Krishna is all attractive. Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati wrote that the jivas have a form of pencil-like rays and that their origin is Brahman. If I remember correctly (it's been more than 10 years since I last studied the matter) he also stated that we come from Mahavishnu. Srila Prabhupada was the first acarya who introduced the Christian "fall from paradise". We were with Krishna, but turned our back to him. This view was not his exclusive view as he shared Bhaktivinoda's view and the view of previous acaryas as well. As we can see, Bhaktivinod Thakur, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati and Srila Prabhupada all introduces three elements: place, time and (partially) cause. All four different sambandhas are problematic, one more than the other. The problem is that all of them make Krishna partial, because some jivas cannot be covered by maya, while others (we) can be and were. They also negate Krisna's all-attractiveness. I believe that unless we approach the acintya-bheda-abheda tattva in a more balanced way and look deeper into abedha side of it, we will be forever stuck in trying to patch the holes in the Gaudiya Vaishnava sambandha jnana. Perhaps the fear of looking into advaita is too great, but this issue cannot be solved without advaita / abheda. Perhaps learning from Abhinavagupta could be of help. This of course brings us to the question you've dealt with in another episode - is bhakti inherent in the jiva? And this leads us to the question: why bhakti at all if we've been here since time immemorial? We've never seen Krishna face to face, he wanted us to be here in this one-living-entity-is-food-for-another world just in order that he can be the full enjoyer of endless lilas. I hate to say it, and for years I didn't dare to think like this, but Gudiya sambandha jnana (and thus the whole Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta) appears to be built on rather week philosophical foundations. I have to seriously re-evaluate everything, because the abhideya and prayojana depend on sambhanda jnana.
@Nitais Servant let's say that I'm still trying to become one. But philosophically I'm pretty much on a different page now. But if you ask me on which page, I'm afraid I don't have the answer.
@Nitais Servant it depends what practicing Krishna Consciousness means for you. If it means the complete bhakti-yoga system as given by Srila Prabhupada, then no, I no longer practice that. If it means something more universal, not bound to a particular time frame and culture, a daily practice to be conscious of the Flutist and truly accept "sarva dharman parityajya...", then yes, this is what I'm striving for. The Truth is universal. It's a difficult phase, though, when even the religion is taken away from you. A small death.
Wow that is a great analysis on what you're going through. Additionally it's a great summary of the different viewpoints of the acaryas. I'm in a similar situation but ultimately I had to finally ask the question,"what do the materials have to say about this or the big three religions". Unfortunately none of their answers even come close to an answer compared Gaudiya Vaishnav. So I'm left here with sticking with the best answer even though it's incomplete , it hella of a lot better than the materialist, Christians, Jews, Muslim,or Buddhist.
Thank you for this podcast. I feel I’ve benefited greatly and love the broad minded attitude & understanding of the many shades of grey. Nectar to the ears which were troubled by the less accommodating approach .
My humble obeisances. I've learned so much from this topic, yet there remain unsolved puzzles in Maharaja's presentation. Conclusion, to me is that, we all originally were with Krishna in the anti-material world. Hare Krishna 🙏.
Swimming in the grey waters! Beautifully said. There is virudha dharam of the absolute truth. Contradictions are possible. Krishna is the supreme Lord, but he crawls in Nanda Maharaja's courtyard. Radharani's love is unlimited, but still, it is increasing.
Wow, for a community whose principles are based on love and understanding, those ideals are somehow widely lacking within the community itself. Some people just need to chill out. There are many branches on the Vaishnava tree. Variation is normal.
Really, really enjoyed this podcast! First of all appreciate the way you host it, Namarasa Prabhu. Then, of course, Maharaja's personality and impressive knowledge makes it even better. These two points: bhakti not being intrinsic part of jiva and jiva didn't fall from Vaikuntha to me personally make complete sense. Indeed! Only now everything falls into place. Still, I must comment on Maharaja's argument if we did fall from Vaikuntha, who or what can guarantee it will not happen again, I would say Krsna Himself says it. One who comes to Him will never (again? 🤭 ) have to experience material existence.
Pranama Olivera. Yes, one who comes to Krishna will never have to return, but my argument was that those who already are in Vaikuntha cannot actually fall, since that is also stated over and over again sastra. So the quote you share does not justify the notion of falling, then returning to Vaikuntha, and then no more fall.
@@SwamiPadmanabhaIn Jaiv Dharma Dashmool shiksha 5th shlok's last line Sa jeevo muktoapi prakritivashyogyah swaguntah Mean that Muktawastha me bhi jeev apne swabhav k anusar Maya Prakriti k vash me hone yogya hota hai Jeev kitna bhi upar uth jaaye us k gathan ki sambhavana sadaiv bani rhti hai ... what's your opinion about this? Hare Krsna 🙏
Thank you. Very interesting. Sometimes Acharyas can have different opinions. And sometimes these opinions may apparently contradict each other. I'd say that this happens because scriptures have multiple meanings, and different acharyas reveal some of these meanings and explanations through their commentaries. Thus, one acharya says that jiva is tatastha shakti, but later another acharya reveals that their are some jivas who are NOT TATASTHA.
In short, he is genius. Now it makes perfect sense why iskcon would insist on "fall" theory....and actually this is not weakening my faith but strengthening
I didn't watch the whole thing because in the 5 minutes I watched (skipped ahead) he covered the points which follow my understanding of the subject. Well done!
Sri Ramanujacarya ( Sri Vaishnavism ) purport Gita 15:16 : “The word aksarah meaning infallible, imperishable refers to the freed jiva who is situated in its own eternal, essential nature and not bound by material nature.” Jivas DO NOT fall from any spiritual world. This is a issue with lower consciousness who are unable to comprehend stuff, only they are saying we fell from there.
@@Parboogie it is , this is a issue only in iskcon. Your GBC refused to consult with other senior Gaudiya outside in this regard and take the matters themselves, because they think that they know everything. Hence I say again, lower consciousness. Unfit to be Gurus ( cheating ).
@@Parboogie One shall read this book: Not even Leaf fall down from Vaikuntha by Satyanarayan Das Babaji , very important for all Gaudiyas , to understand that Jiva tattva is so much wrongly presented in Isckon Only, and nowhere else in other Gaudiya shakhas , they all accept No falldown Siddhant , Which is again bought forth by Imperfect Decisions made by GBC , Srila Gaur Govind Maharaj was so distressed due to their Conditioned Approach. Indeed Isckon is body of Srila Prabhupada, but Siddhant is an ornament of Body and , if someone creates Disputes or Contaminations within siddhant then ornament is of no use ... drive.google.com/file/d/1EKdSD_DMP7VJ_ChQqetAZFJ8Nz0JT5AT/view?usp=drivesdk
@@Parboogie In Siddhant , Siddhant means siddha + anta : which is perfect and one , there is no black and white in siddhant. It's either this or that ... Falldown siddhant is Perfectly Wrong , apasiddhant, And moreover Offensive...due to it's offensive Application upon Nitya muktas , that somehow they were once fallen . And this Siddhant brings up Mayavaad in Its womb , because fallvadis propose that shuddh mukta jivas , came into Maya and become baddha , it's pure Mayavaad, like Brahma becomes Jiva , this is literal nonsense...
Hare Krsna🙏 Jeevas like me have free will but we can't enjoy freely like Krsna Free will means that we can act wrongly and get suffering Conclusion: there is no freedom for jeevas like me Supreme God Krsna is the only enjoyer we are meant to provide for his enjoyment... *Really Sorry but I feel this is also a type of #hell ...Hare Krsna🙏
Hare Krsna! Thanks for the podcast. Thats such an interesting subject. I really would like to see and debate between Hridayananda Maharaj and Swami Padmanabha. Because Hridayananda Maharaj defends a very interesting reasoning about the "fall of the jiva" that Maharaj Padmanbha did not comment on the Podcast. Wich is: What about Jiva choose completely conscious to come to material world just to know Krsna in a deeper way, and to increase love and service. As love and service for Krsna is never ending to be incresed. So soul could choose to come, not falling, but chosing, and he defends this by shastra and so on. I really would like to see they talking about this. The elimination of the idea of "falling", but putting the idea of choice at the center.
@@NamarasaPodcast I can send him an email with the proposal for this debate. What do you think? I have contact with him, but never had with Swami Padmanabha. If HDG think its ok to participate, them you can proposal to Swami Padmanabha. (sorry for my bad english)
why would jiva come to this world to know more about krishna or love him deeply when all jiva here are conditioned and are averse to krishna does that soul who choses to come here will get favaurable enviroment to deepen his love ?? NO he is better be there with rupa and raghunath and deepnd his love for krishna as we love when we see someone love the other person in this case it is krishna,we learn to serve when we see Nitya siddha jiva serving so it would be better there not here in this world
Actually, Snowflakes Are Also falling down, but not in A damaging Manner that is An Embarrassment on that Aspect of the Absolute Truth. Rather, just As Mother Earth is not only Able to Absorb the Moisture, created As the Snowflakes Are melting into the Earth. Actually, Mother Nature's Arrangement is exactly for Absorbing that Higher, Pure And Heavenly Vibration...
@In the process calm down, unfortunately we are not all pure devotees like you, if you are the personification of bhakti or think you understand the svarupa of Srila Prabhupada, with your attitude there is no hope for the residents of this planet. Good luck on your way down
My respectful obeisances, Namarasa Pr. and Maharaja. With all due respect, Maharaja was incorrect in the various examples he gave in attempting to cement his stance that devotion to God is NOT inherent in the jiva. I can share my little, but bold understanding on this topic to substantiate shortcomings of Maharaja's defense. Differences in understanding the unfathomable depths of Vaisnava Siddhanta does not make one evil, we've got to remember that. Hare Krishna.
“The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However. When the living entity wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.” Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.54
“Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuṇṭha.” SB 7.1.35 He said both things... so what will you do? --We go to the sastra as the last word on the topic.
@@NamarasaPodcast 1: we are not Jaya & Vijaya 2: we don't FALL from Vaikuntha, we leave willingly (unlike heaven) 3: I go to Prabhupada, not someone outside who will minimize him.
@@NamarasaPodcast "One never falls from Vaikuntha" is a general statement. We are ALWAYS FREE to leave at will... But this is a minority, most souls never leave. What is the question of Bhakti without freedom ? It must be voluntary !
@@PradyumnaDasa so let me get this straight, you felt you were with Krishna and while being with Krishna you were like “this isn’t fun, I want to be by myself” and then you voluntarily left?
At (1:19:50) Swami Padmanabha alleges that Srila Prabhupada took the title "Back to Godhead" for his magazine from a lecture by the archbishop of Canterbury (which, as Swami Padmanabha further opines, in its original context meant something different, and therefore the title Back to Godhead cannot refer to going back to Vaikuntha). *Fact check:* This claim is completely incorrect. Here is how Bhakti Vikasa Swami's well-researched biography of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Vaibhava, accounts for the origin of the motto: "Circa 1934 Abhaya Caranaravinda Prabhu was present when Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati was discussing with Gaudiya Matha leaders about starting a new English magazine to complement the highly philosophical Harmonist by presenting Gaudiya teachings in a more broadly appealing manner. Three possibilities were broached for the title: Universal Brotherhood, Universal Truth, and Gaudiya Message. *But it was Abhayada's suggestion of Back to Godhead* that met with Srila Sarasvati Thakura's approval. *Back to Godhead was a phrase that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati had coined and often used.* He would say, "‘To go back home, back to Godhead' is the motto of the Gaudiya Matha." Shortly afterward he delivered a lecture on this subject. Yet somehow the magazine was never begun. So on Janmastami of that year, in his upstairs room at Sri Gaudiya Matha, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati told Abhaya to himself start a periodical of the name Back to Godhead." (Volume III, part 4) And, as one may expect, there are numerous instances of the phrase "Back to Godhead" occurring in Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati's writings. Indeed, here it is in the inaugural English edition of the Harmonist (25.1; June 1927): *"Most people of the world, forgetful of their own home* under the spell of the enchantress, are running headlong in the opposite direction. In this performance, again their intoxication, eagerness, concentration, and firm determination are so intense that they have indeed very little opportunity to think about home. But the voice of the Gaudiya Matha, the flying red-tinted banner of the Gaudiya Matha, arresting the ears and eyes of all persons, is ever proclaiming: ‘krsna' bolo, sange calo, ei-matra bhiksa cai Say ‘Krsna, ' come along; this is the only alms we beg. (Gitavali) *"Back to God, and back to home" is the message of Gaudiya Matha.* To arrest the perverted current tide and redirect it toward the eternal source is the seemingly unpleasant duty of the Gaudiya Matha." In other words, the motto (and its underlying notion of going back to our original home) was inherited by Srila Prabhupada from his own Guru Maharaja with his full approval - rather than lifted from an archbishop's lecture, as Swami Padmanabha alleges, dismissing it as a "figure of speech". Again, may we know the sources of Swami Padmanabha's this and other unverifiable yet quite consequential claims?
"Abhay quoted the Archbishop of Canterbury: In every quarter of earth men long to be delivered from the curse of War and to find, in a world which has regained its peace, respite from the harshness and bitterness of the world they have known till now. But so often they want the Kingdom of Heaven without its King, the kingdom of God without God. And they cannot have it. Our resolve must be back to God. We make plans for the future for peace amongst nations and for civil security at home. That is quite right enough and it would be wrong to neglect it. But all our plans will come to shipwreck on the rock of human selfishness unless we turn to God. BACK TO GOD, that is the chief need of England and of every nation.
@@NamarasaPodcast Thank you for your reply, Namarasa Prabhu. However, this quote from Srila Prabhupada-lilamrita simply states the obvious - that Srila Prabhupada (then Abhay Caranaravinda Prabhu) saw a statement by the Archbishop, that happened to be very similar in form to the Gaudiya-matha's motto coined by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswami, as an opportunity to preach. It does not prove that it was the first time Srila Prabhupada heard that statement and then appropriated it as the title of his own magazine, much less that the motto of his magazine had nothing to do with actually going back to Vaikuntha, as Swami Padmanabha contends. Therefore my humble request for Swami Padmanabha to either substantiate or rescind his claim remains. Many thanks.
MM dasa, another proof is in the Mula Prakriti devi dasi's book Srila Prabhupad our well wisher, wherein she interviewed the person who was in the room when BSST coined the title for the magazine BTG, in bengali as Ghar phire chalo. I have come accross a BSST disciple Y Jagannatham's book called Endless Love. The book is about how the Jiva falls down from the spiritual world into this material world. There are many quotes from BVT wherein he explicitly states the Jiva was in the spiritual world and left Krishna and came to the material world.
In (42:35) Swami B. P. Padmanabha quotes Narada Muni as concluding in SB 4.28.65 that "the purpose of this story, an allegorical one, was not to indicate that we fell from nitya-lila". In (43:10) Namarasa interjects: "Who says that?" and Swami Padmanabha reaffirms: "Narada Muni [in the] last verse of this chapter, mentioning that all that is mentioned is not to point that we fell from Vaikuntha". *Fact check:* This statement is false. Neither the verse itself nor its translation by Srila Prabhupada say anything even remotely close to what Swami Padmanabha quotes Narada Muni as saying. Here is the translation: "My dear King Prācīnabarhi, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the cause of all causes, is celebrated to be known indirectly. Thus I have described the story of Purañjana to you. Actually it is an instruction for self-realization". I hope Swami Padmanabha will consider correcting himself by clarifying that the above statement was his indirect interpretation of the verse in question rather than its literal or logical import.
@@NamarasaPodcast //Maybe its in the commentary by another acarya like VCT.// Sridhara Swami, Jiva Gosvami and Visvanatha Cakravarti say nothing in their commentaries on SB 4.28.65 to the effect that "this story is not meant to indicate that we fell from nitya-lila". On the contrary, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura writes: "Do not take this to be simply a story. On the pretext of telling a story about a king (pārokṣyeṇa) I have given spiritual instruction. The reason is given. The Lord is fond of indirect expression. I have told a story to you which is beyond the limits of time". In other words, contrary to what Swami Padmanabha said at (42:35), Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura explicitly describes the story as not a mere allegory, but rather as a retelling of a timeless spiritual truth, or siddhanta. And part of the timeless spiritual truth, or siddhanta, are SB 4.28.53-55, in which the Lord disguised as a brahmana twice tells the living entity that "you have abandoned Me, your original friend, to come to this world", using the verbs "hitva" and "vihaya", both meaning "having rejected/abandoned [Me]". It would be interesting to know what the rationale for Swami Padmanabha's interpretation of SB 4.28.65 is.
@@NamarasaPodcast Unfortunately, this is not the only instance of inaccurate or unverifiable claims in this and the previous podcast by Swami Padmanabha. I have just fact-checked another one in a separate comment, and am hoping that Swami Padmanabha will either reveal his sources for them or clarify/rectify/retract them as incorrect. Many thanks, Namarasa Prabhu.
Krishna is equal to all, but some souls find themselves in a place of suffering, and some in prema. But its no one's fault? Nama rasa said "why would Krishna allow me to fall"...but why would Krishna allow you to start your existence in the miserable material world? In the fall idea....someone is responsible, the jiva. In the anadi idea....yea the jiva is responsible for continuing in material existence, but who is responsible for the unequal situation to begin with?
How can you say ishvara did not create everything? He is the original absolute truth. There is nothing superior to Him. Everything is moving by His will.
@@SwamiPadmanabha It doesn't ? There is something not created by Krishna ? Now I am really confused....Or, oh, You mean we all always are/were? The jivas, Krishna, hellish planets ? Hmmm. Yeah ok.
@@SwamiPadmanabha Hare Krsna🙏 Then who created Jivas ?and how he Krsna became our God Jeev like me feels anath (orphan) if we don't practice Bhakti or gyan Karma or Krsna instructions then we have to suffer... why we are not free ? because of suffering pain Fear which gives us by Maaya or Prakriti Or God shkti's which works under the control of Supreme God Krsna ... Because jeev like me feels no independence why I don't feel independence the reason behind it is I suffered too I felt fear too much in my life .Maaya shkti Or prakriti works under the control of Supreme God Krsna🙏
@@braveboy8176 Nobody created the jivas. Jivas are eternal, which means they have never been created. In fact, nothing is created out of nothing. Everything exists eternally, whether we speak of jiva-sakti, maya-sakti or svarupa-sakti. All these "why´s" questions presuppose the idea that someone chose our condition to be like it is, like if someone decided that before "creating" us. But again, there is no creation out of nothing, so God is not to blame for that. Everything already is, exists, and the whole system works perfectly: Krishna wants to love us, but love is a voluntary decision. Krishna already made his mind about us by showering unconditional love, but since love is voluntary, we have to choose to love him. And for choosing that we need another choice as well, since if we only have one choice, how much of a choice that is? So the second choice is choosing not to love him, with all the diverse consequences of that. And we have free will, but how free is our will? It all depends how properly we use it. The more we choose in the direction of loving Krishna, the more free is our will.
@@SwamiPadmanabhaHare Krsna 🙏 Swami ji why are you lying In JAIVA DHARMA there is clearly mentioned that KRSNA CREATED THE JIVAS so weak you can read it here 👉Vrajanātha: Kışņa is karunamaya (full of mercy), so "why did *He make the jiva so weak *that he became entangled in māyā?" Bābāji: It is true that Krşņa is karuņamaya, overflowing with mercy, however, He is also līlāmaya, overflowing with desire to perform pastimes. Desiring various pastimes to be enacted in different situations, Śrī Krsna made the jiva's eligable for all conditions, from the marginal state to the highest state of mahābhāva. And to facilitate the jiva's progressing practically and steadfastly towards becoming qualified for Krsna's service, He has also created the lower levels of material existence, beginning from the lowest inert matter up to ahańkāra, which are the cause. of unlimited obstruction in attaining paramānanda. Having fallen from their constitutional position, the jīvas who are entangled in māyā are indifferent to Krşņa and engrossed in personal sense gratification. However, Śrī Krşņa is the reservoir of mercy. The 360 JAIVA-DHARMA CHAPTER 16 more the jiva becomes fallen, the more Krsna provides him with opportunities to attain the highest spiritual perfection. He brings this about by appearing before him along with His spiritual dhāma and His eternal associates. Those jīvas who take advantage of this merciful opportunity and sincerely endeavor to attain the higher position gradually reach the spiritual world and attain a state similar to that of Śri Hari's eternal associates. Vrajanātha: Why must the jīvas suffer for the sake of Bhagavān's pastimes? Bābāji: The jīvas possess some independence. This is actually a sign of Bhagavān's special mercy upon them. Inert objects are very insignificant and worthless because they have no such independent desire. The jīva has attained sovereignty of the inert world only because of his independent desire. Misery and happiness are conditions of the mind. Thus what we may consider misery is happiness for one engrossed in ir Since all varieties of material sense gratification@SwamiPadmanabha
Here is a problem: If we never fell then we have spent an eternity in the material world. And the only way we can get out of this hell is to come in contact with bhakti. So why has Krsna and his devotees allowed us to undergo an infinite number of births before arranging for us to come in contact with bhakti? How is that compassionate? If bhakti-devi has the power to enter our lives why does she not do so for an eternity? And what purpose would be served if Krsna lets us suffer for a infinite number births without any chance of developing bhakti? Vaisnavas criticise the Christian belief in eternal hell because "God would not be such a monster." But the anadi theory is another theory of eternal hell. Eternal hell followed by eternal bliss. Well at least this is better than the Christian idea! Or is it that we have had sadhu sanga an infinite number of times but messed up an infinite number of times? Scripture says liberation follows quickly after sadhu sanga so this can't be the case, I would say. So it seems that contact with bhakti has a beginning, it is not anadi. Conclusion: Fall from Vaikuntha, fall from Brahman and we never fell are ALL problematic.
Pranama Govinda Rama. As I mentioned in the podcast, Krishna did not created us nor this world, nor planned in advance for us to suffer here or there--saktiman and sakti exist for eternity, so instead of judging God for what he created (he created nothing) we have to consider him regarding how he behaves to those things which already exist. In connection to the notion of anadi and us being here from time without beginning, this does not imply that Krishna is cruel, because bhakti is there in the world from anadi time, so if we have not chosen to embrace it till now (it is not inherent! :), then Krishna is not to fault for that. Bhakti has the power to enter into our lives, but love is a voluntary affair and we have to express our own will accepting her approach. The fact that bhakti is a causeless gift basically means that we did nothing to deserve it, but it also implies that we have to use our volition to accept such a gift.
@@SwamiPadmanabha My obeisances, Swami Padmanabha. Some of your claims in this podcast appear to be incorrect. I have begun fact-checking them as separate comments here and would be grateful for your response. Many thanks.
@@giftprabhupada Pranama MM Dasa, sorry for the delay in my reply, quite busy in Navadvipa these last weeks. Before replying to your questions, I would like to ask you the following: Is the intention of your questions to prove that I am wrong on this topic, and that the jiva actually falls from Vaikuntha? Because if that is the case, I would not engage in that conversation, since I have already shared considerable sastra-pramana about how that is not our Gaudiya siddhanta.
@@SwamiPadmanabha Thank you for your response, Maharaja. At this point my intention is just to clarify and verify the sources (if any) for some of your statements in this podcast, starting with the two above. I hope you see this intention as legitimate by itself, regardless of its possible ramifications for the larger issue at hand. Many thanks.
Maharaj is explaining away 4.28.53 with 4.28.65 I'm not seeing his logic. Yes, the allegory was instruction in self realization. The allegory is of a brahmana and the queen. The brahmana is God, the queen is the soul. Its an allegory describing something real. Prabhupada says in the purport to 65 that the stories in the Puranas "refer to real facts".
I´m just explaining that section in the context of everything else that sastra has said on this topic, which clearly support no-fall. A text without a context becomes a pretext.
Hare Krishna, Its is not convincing that Back to Godhead was a preaching technique, and living entities can not go to Goloka. We see within Iskcon Achaeyas, great learners (Amarendra prabhu, Amogh Leela prabhu), also other swamis from other sampradaya (Kripalu maharaj) and many other saints (eg Sant Tukaram) reference to going back to Goloka and Vaikunth.
57:59 "why would Krishna allow that to happen (the fall of a jiva)". to counter that, why would Krishna allow there to be even a material world? If He is all powerful, why does He even create the material world.
@@SwamiPadmanabha But Maaya works under the presidency of Bhagvan Shri Krsna (B. G 9.10,7.14....) Krsna is the causes of all causes (Bhramasamhita )maaya is shadow of Antranga swaroop shkti of Krsna ...Hare Krsna🙏
IN JAIV DHARMA CHAPTER 16 THERE IS CLEARLY MENTIONED THAT KRSNA CREATED THE JIVAS SO WEAK VRAJNATH IS ASKING 👉Vrajanātha: Kışņa is karunamaya (full of mercy), so why did He make the jiva so weak that he became entangled in māyā? Bābāji: It is true that Krşņa is karuņamaya, overflowing with mercy, however, He is also līlāmaya, overflowing with desire to perform pastimes. Desiring various pastimes to be enacted in different situations, Śrī Krsna made the jiva's eligable for all conditions, from the marginal state to the highest state of mahābhāva. And to facilitate the jiva's progressing practically and steadfastly towards becoming qualified for Krsna's service, He has also created the lower levels of material existence, beginning from the lowest inert matter up to ahańkāra, which are the cause. of unlimited obstruction in attaining paramānanda. Having fallen from their constitutional position, the jīvas who are entangled in māyā are indifferent to Krşņa and engrossed in personal sense gratification. However, Śrī Krşņa is the reservoir of mercy. The 360 JAIVA-DHARMA CHAPTER 16 more the jiva becomes fallen, the more Krsna provides him with opportunities to attain the highest spiritual perfection. He brings this about by appearing before him along with His spiritual dhāma and His eternal associates. Those jīvas who take advantage of this merciful opportunity and sincerely endeavor to attain the higher position gradually reach the spiritual world and attain a state similar to that of Śri Hari's eternal associates. Vrajanātha: Why must the jīvas suffer for the sake of Bhagavān's pastimes? Bābāji: The jīvas possess some independence. This is actually a sign of Bhagavān's special mercy upon them. Inert objects are very insignificant and worthless because they have no such independent desire. The jīva has attained sovereignty of the inert world only because of his independent desire. Misery and happiness are conditions of the mind. Thus what we may consider misery is happiness for one engrossed in ir Since all varieties of material sense gratification@@SwamiPadmanabha
I would like to think it is Krishna that is removing my previous memories of this ridiculous life I am still living, but I fear it is just alzheimers..... Either way it qualifies as mercy.
Actually, Snowflakes Are Also falling down, but not in A damaging Manner that is An Embarrassment on that Aspect of the Absolute Truth. Rather, just As Mother Earth is not only Able to Absorb the Moisture, created As the Snowflakes Are melting into the Earth. Actually, Mother Nature's Arrangement is exactly for Absorbing that Higher, Pure And Heavenly Vibration...
He is too young to be a Swami. Very disturbing trend for ISKCON. Kirtanananda was initiated at 30. He wanted power, prestige and worship and had no life experience. Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.
Just because some fell down doesn't mean everyone will fall down. Srila Jaypataka Swami Maharaj was initiated as a Sanyasi at the age of 21, Now Maharaj has completed 51 years of Sanyas and is the longest Standing Sanyasi in ISKCON. We must respect everyone.
There is a deliberate attempt to discredit Srila Prabhupada. I see such things do happen in your podcasts for grabbing eyeballs, but ultimately, try to not flow away with their thoughts. The jiva's svaroop itself is the indication that somehow he is in an unhealthy unnatural circumstances. So, the actual state is in service of Krsna, whether Vaikuntha or Devidham, hardly matters. All energies are eternal. But material time is only to make the jiva aware of the arrangement of getting off the limitations of changing bodies, and ultimately, re unite in svaroop in cintamani dham. So, any time( material time or spiritual time) there is a free will to serve Krsna or serve oneself.
I don’t think there is an attempt to discredit His Divine Grace. I think it’s simply that we have Prabhupada AND the books of the Goswamis. So we can have both. I’m not sure of your other points.
Thank you for this presentation. I am most indebted
Thank you both for a great discussion. This issue has been giving me headaches for years, and I've never really resolved it fully. I've parked it for more than 10 years, but now after seeing this episode it resurfaced. Unfortunately my conclusion after studying the texts of acharyas before Bhaktivinod Thakur is that the sambandha jnana in Gaudiya Vaishnavism was never thoroughly developed and that the consensus was unclear. Baladeva Vidyabushana, Vishvanath Chakravarti thakur and Jiva Goswami however agree that the bondage of jiva with maya/karma is anadi (beginningless). They also agree that for the beginningless conditioning of a jiva no one is to be blamed (nor jiva, nor Krishna). It's just the way it is. Some add that this is the sweet will of the Lord. He is Lilamaya, Lila-purushottama, so for that purpose he also engages in the lila of the material creation and while nitya-siddha jivas have their position in the eternal spiritual reality and spiritual pastimes, we, the nitya-badha jivas have our position in his lila of this external manifestation. One devotee commented on this: "I hate being in the loosers camp. Right."
So, the previous acaryas stated, that our conditioning with maya is anadi and that no one is to be blamed for this. It's neither our fault, nor Krishna's. The question of course is, who pressed the button that got the wheel of karma spinning :)
Bhaktivinod Thakur was the first one who introduced time and space into this issue - the tatastha region. According to this theory the tatastha jivas are made weak and are bereft of cit-shakti, therefore they are prone to be covered by maya. In fact, as some point (Bhaktivinoda) stated that ALL tatastha jivas are disposed into maya. This theory has a problem, because Krishna "created" the tatastha jivas weak / bereft of cit-shakti. And it also is problematic, as Maharaj stated in the video, that it is contrary to the fact that Krishna is all attractive.
Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati wrote that the jivas have a form of pencil-like rays and that their origin is Brahman. If I remember correctly (it's been more than 10 years since I last studied the matter) he also stated that we come from Mahavishnu.
Srila Prabhupada was the first acarya who introduced the Christian "fall from paradise". We were with Krishna, but turned our back to him. This view was not his exclusive view as he shared Bhaktivinoda's view and the view of previous acaryas as well.
As we can see, Bhaktivinod Thakur, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati and Srila Prabhupada all introduces three elements: place, time and (partially) cause.
All four different sambandhas are problematic, one more than the other. The problem is that all of them make Krishna partial, because some jivas cannot be covered by maya, while others (we) can be and were. They also negate Krisna's all-attractiveness. I believe that unless we approach the acintya-bheda-abheda tattva in a more balanced way and look deeper into abedha side of it, we will be forever stuck in trying to patch the holes in the Gaudiya Vaishnava sambandha jnana. Perhaps the fear of looking into advaita is too great, but this issue cannot be solved without advaita / abheda. Perhaps learning from Abhinavagupta could be of help.
This of course brings us to the question you've dealt with in another episode - is bhakti inherent in the jiva? And this leads us to the question: why bhakti at all if we've been here since time immemorial? We've never seen Krishna face to face, he wanted us to be here in this one-living-entity-is-food-for-another world just in order that he can be the full enjoyer of endless lilas. I hate to say it, and for years I didn't dare to think like this, but Gudiya sambandha jnana (and thus the whole Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta) appears to be built on rather week philosophical foundations. I have to seriously re-evaluate everything, because the abhideya and prayojana depend on sambhanda jnana.
Are you a THEIST? 🤔
If so, what are the reasons for your BELIEF in God? 🤓
@Nitais Servant let's say that I'm still trying to become one. But philosophically I'm pretty much on a different page now. But if you ask me on which page, I'm afraid I don't have the answer.
@Nitais Servant it depends what practicing Krishna Consciousness means for you. If it means the complete bhakti-yoga system as given by Srila Prabhupada, then no, I no longer practice that. If it means something more universal, not bound to a particular time frame and culture, a daily practice to be conscious of the Flutist and truly accept "sarva dharman parityajya...", then yes, this is what I'm striving for. The Truth is universal. It's a difficult phase, though, when even the religion is taken away from you. A small death.
@@rok_koritnikHare Krsna 🙏 Yes I'm already stucked in this since long time . Did you find any solution ? How to connect with you ?
Wow that is a great analysis on what you're going through. Additionally it's a great summary of the different viewpoints of the acaryas. I'm in a similar situation but ultimately I had to finally ask the question,"what do the materials have to say about this or the big three religions". Unfortunately none of their answers even come close to an answer compared Gaudiya Vaishnav. So I'm left here with sticking with the best answer even though it's incomplete , it hella of a lot better than the materialist, Christians, Jews, Muslim,or Buddhist.
Please invite HG AMOGH LEELA PRABHUJI
Love Maharaj, amazing soul. Very saintly devotee.
Thank you for this podcast. I feel I’ve benefited greatly and love the broad minded attitude & understanding of the many shades of grey. Nectar to the ears which were troubled by the less accommodating approach .
My humble obeisances. I've learned so much from this topic, yet there remain unsolved puzzles in Maharaja's presentation. Conclusion, to me is that, we all originally were with Krishna in the anti-material world.
Hare Krishna 🙏.
I thought realization is recollections that seperation is the illusion.
Haribol prabhu. Please keep inviting Maharaj again and again . Jai
Kindly repeat that in ENGLISH, Miss.☝️
Incidentally, are you VEGAN? 🌱
Swimming in the grey waters! Beautifully said. There is virudha dharam of the absolute truth. Contradictions are possible. Krishna is the supreme Lord, but he crawls in Nanda Maharaja's courtyard. Radharani's love is unlimited, but still, it is increasing.
Wow, for a community whose principles are based on love and understanding, those ideals are somehow widely lacking within the community itself. Some people just need to chill out. There are many branches on the Vaishnava tree. Variation is normal.
Good Girl! 👌
Incidentally, are you a member of ISKCon? 🤔
Really, really enjoyed this podcast! First of all appreciate the way you host it, Namarasa Prabhu. Then, of course, Maharaja's personality and impressive knowledge makes it even better. These two points: bhakti not being intrinsic part of jiva and jiva didn't fall from Vaikuntha to me personally make complete sense. Indeed! Only now everything falls into place. Still, I must comment on Maharaja's argument if we did fall from Vaikuntha, who or what can guarantee it will not happen again, I would say Krsna Himself says it. One who comes to Him will never (again? 🤭 ) have to experience material existence.
Pranama Olivera. Yes, one who comes to Krishna will never have to return, but my argument was that those who already are in Vaikuntha cannot actually fall, since that is also stated over and over again sastra. So the quote you share does not justify the notion of falling, then returning to Vaikuntha, and then no more fall.
@@SwamiPadmanabha pranam Maharaja! Yes, I get your point. Thank you for clarification.
Nope. Bhakti is an intrinsic part of the jiva, yes. Bhakti is the nature of all souls.
Hare Krishna 🙏.
Don't follow iskcon
@@SwamiPadmanabhaIn Jaiv Dharma Dashmool shiksha 5th shlok's last line Sa jeevo muktoapi prakritivashyogyah swaguntah Mean that Muktawastha me bhi jeev apne swabhav k anusar Maya Prakriti k vash me hone yogya hota hai Jeev kitna bhi upar uth jaaye us k gathan ki sambhavana sadaiv bani rhti hai ... what's your opinion about this? Hare Krsna 🙏
Thank you. Very interesting.
Sometimes Acharyas can have different opinions. And sometimes these opinions may apparently contradict each other.
I'd say that this happens because scriptures have multiple meanings, and different acharyas reveal some of these meanings and explanations through their commentaries.
Thus, one acharya says that jiva is tatastha shakti, but later another acharya reveals that their are some jivas who are NOT TATASTHA.
In short, he is genius. Now it makes perfect sense why iskcon would insist on "fall" theory....and actually this is not weakening my faith but strengthening
I didn't watch the whole thing because in the 5 minutes I watched (skipped ahead) he covered the points which follow my understanding of the subject.
Well done!
Sri Ramanujacarya ( Sri Vaishnavism ) purport Gita 15:16 : “The word aksarah meaning infallible, imperishable refers to the freed jiva who is situated in its own eternal, essential nature and not bound by material nature.”
Jivas DO NOT fall from any spiritual world. This is a issue with lower consciousness who are unable to comprehend stuff, only they are saying we fell from there.
Don't you think your comment is insulting? Differences in opinion should not be termed as being in lower consciousness, okay 🆗.
@@Parboogie it is , this is a issue only in iskcon. Your GBC refused to consult with other senior Gaudiya outside in this regard and take the matters themselves, because they think that they know everything. Hence I say again, lower consciousness. Unfit to be Gurus ( cheating ).
@@Parboogie One shall read this book: Not even Leaf fall down from Vaikuntha by Satyanarayan Das Babaji , very important for all Gaudiyas , to understand that Jiva tattva is so much wrongly presented in Isckon Only, and nowhere else in other Gaudiya shakhas , they all accept No falldown Siddhant , Which is again bought forth by Imperfect Decisions made by GBC , Srila Gaur Govind Maharaj was so distressed due to their Conditioned Approach. Indeed Isckon is body of Srila Prabhupada, but Siddhant is an ornament of Body and , if someone creates Disputes or Contaminations within siddhant then ornament is of no use ...
drive.google.com/file/d/1EKdSD_DMP7VJ_ChQqetAZFJ8Nz0JT5AT/view?usp=drivesdk
@@Parboogie In Siddhant , Siddhant means siddha + anta : which is perfect and one , there is no black and white in siddhant. It's either this or that ... Falldown siddhant is Perfectly Wrong , apasiddhant, And moreover Offensive...due to it's offensive Application upon Nitya muktas , that somehow they were once fallen . And this Siddhant brings up Mayavaad in Its womb , because fallvadis propose that shuddh mukta jivas , came into Maya and become baddha , it's pure Mayavaad, like Brahma becomes Jiva , this is literal nonsense...
Hare Krsna
What about Prabhupad statement in this video 👉th-cam.com/video/2fjTLm4gJdQ/w-d-xo.htmlsi=S7oU9oIEgWnG1fKK @@nitai2222
Hare Krsna🙏 Jeevas like me have free will but we can't enjoy freely like Krsna
Free will means that we can act wrongly and get suffering
Conclusion: there is no freedom for jeevas like me Supreme God Krsna is the only enjoyer we are meant to provide for his enjoyment...
*Really Sorry but I feel this is also a type of #hell ...Hare Krsna🙏
Hare Krsna! Thanks for the podcast. Thats such an interesting subject. I really would like to see and debate between Hridayananda Maharaj and Swami Padmanabha. Because Hridayananda Maharaj defends a very interesting reasoning about the "fall of the jiva" that Maharaj Padmanbha did not comment on the Podcast. Wich is: What about Jiva choose completely conscious to come to material world just to know Krsna in a deeper way, and to increase love and service. As love and service for Krsna is never ending to be incresed. So soul could choose to come, not falling, but chosing, and he defends this by shastra and so on. I really would like to see they talking about this. The elimination of the idea of "falling", but putting the idea of choice at the center.
I would love to host a debate b/w HDG and PS. Any way you could arrange that?
@@NamarasaPodcast I can send him an email with the proposal for this debate. What do you think? I have contact with him, but never had with Swami Padmanabha. If HDG think its ok to participate, them you can proposal to Swami Padmanabha. (sorry for my bad english)
@@radhashakti108 yes that sounds good
why would jiva come to this world to know more about krishna or love him deeply when all jiva here are conditioned and are averse to krishna does that soul who choses to come here will get favaurable enviroment to deepen his love ?? NO he is better be there with rupa and raghunath and deepnd his love for krishna as we love when we see someone love the other person in this case it is krishna,we learn to serve when we see Nitya siddha jiva serving so it would be better there not here in this world
Actually, Snowflakes
Are
Also falling down, but not in
A damaging Manner that is
An Embarrassment on that
Aspect of the
Absolute Truth. Rather, just
As Mother Earth is not only
Able to
Absorb the Moisture, created
As the Snowflakes
Are melting into the Earth.
Actually, Mother Nature's
Arrangement is exactly for
Absorbing that Higher, Pure
And Heavenly Vibration...
_.___.__ò__
Thank you Maharaja.
Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare / Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare
Whatever happened to the podcast of the Narayan Maharaj disciple with the rebuttal to this podcast?
Episode #77
Mind boggling, but great and interesting discussion 🙏
@In the process calm down, unfortunately we are not all pure devotees like you, if you are the personification of bhakti or think you understand the svarupa of Srila Prabhupada, with your attitude there is no hope for the residents of this planet. Good luck on your way down
In South Indian Vaisnavism there is no an idea of falling of the jiva.
My respectful obeisances, Namarasa Pr. and Maharaja. With all due respect, Maharaja was incorrect in the various examples he gave in attempting to cement his stance that devotion to God is NOT inherent in the jiva. I can share my little, but bold understanding on this topic to substantiate shortcomings of Maharaja's defense.
Differences in understanding the unfathomable depths of Vaisnava Siddhanta does not make one evil, we've got to remember that. Hare Krishna.
Thank you for your comment. This episode is now 2 years old and we have moved onto greener pastures 😌
What happened to your Instagram account and this account??
I left IG
“The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However. When the living entity wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.”
Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.54
“Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuṇṭha.”
SB 7.1.35
He said both things... so what will you do? --We go to the sastra as the last word on the topic.
@@NamarasaPodcast 1: we are not Jaya & Vijaya
2: we don't FALL from Vaikuntha, we leave willingly (unlike heaven)
3: I go to Prabhupada, not someone outside who will minimize him.
@@NamarasaPodcast "One never falls from Vaikuntha" is a general statement. We are ALWAYS FREE to leave at will... But this is a minority, most souls never leave. What is the question of Bhakti without freedom ? It must be voluntary !
@@PradyumnaDasa so let me get this straight, you felt you were with Krishna and while being with Krishna you were like “this isn’t fun, I want to be by myself” and then you voluntarily left?
@@PradyumnaDasa back up your statements with Sastra please. There is no sastric pramana for LEAVE-VADA. You are speculating BIG TIME :)
At (1:19:50) Swami Padmanabha alleges that Srila Prabhupada took the title "Back to Godhead" for his magazine from a lecture by the archbishop of Canterbury (which, as Swami Padmanabha further opines, in its original context meant something different, and therefore the title Back to Godhead cannot refer to going back to Vaikuntha).
*Fact check:* This claim is completely incorrect. Here is how Bhakti Vikasa Swami's well-researched biography of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Vaibhava, accounts for the origin of the motto:
"Circa 1934 Abhaya Caranaravinda Prabhu was present when Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati was discussing with Gaudiya Matha leaders about starting a new English magazine to complement the highly philosophical Harmonist by presenting Gaudiya teachings in a more broadly appealing manner. Three possibilities were broached for the title: Universal Brotherhood, Universal Truth, and Gaudiya Message. *But it was Abhayada's suggestion of Back to Godhead* that met with Srila Sarasvati Thakura's approval. *Back to Godhead was a phrase that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati had coined and often used.* He would say, "‘To go back home, back to Godhead' is the motto of the Gaudiya Matha." Shortly afterward he delivered a lecture on this subject. Yet somehow the magazine was never begun. So on Janmastami of that year, in his upstairs room at Sri Gaudiya Matha, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati told Abhaya to himself start a periodical of the name Back to Godhead." (Volume III, part 4)
And, as one may expect, there are numerous instances of the phrase "Back to Godhead" occurring in Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati's writings. Indeed, here it is in the inaugural English edition of the Harmonist (25.1; June 1927):
*"Most people of the world, forgetful of their own home* under the spell of the enchantress, are running headlong in the opposite direction. In this performance, again their intoxication, eagerness, concentration, and firm determination are so intense that they have indeed very little opportunity to think about home. But the voice of the Gaudiya Matha, the flying red-tinted banner of the Gaudiya Matha, arresting the ears and eyes of all persons, is ever proclaiming:
‘krsna' bolo, sange calo, ei-matra bhiksa cai
Say ‘Krsna, ' come along; this is the only alms we beg. (Gitavali)
*"Back to God, and back to home" is the message of Gaudiya Matha.* To arrest the perverted current tide and redirect it toward the eternal source is the seemingly unpleasant duty of the Gaudiya Matha."
In other words, the motto (and its underlying notion of going back to our original home) was inherited by Srila Prabhupada from his own Guru Maharaja with his full approval - rather than lifted from an archbishop's lecture, as Swami Padmanabha alleges, dismissing it as a "figure of speech".
Again, may we know the sources of Swami Padmanabha's this and other unverifiable yet quite consequential claims?
"Abhay quoted the Archbishop of Canterbury:
In every quarter of earth men long to be delivered from the curse of War and to find, in a world which has regained its peace, respite from the harshness and bitterness of the world they have known till now. But so often they want the Kingdom of Heaven without its King, the kingdom of God without God. And they cannot have it.
Our resolve must be back to God. We make plans for the future for peace amongst nations and for civil security at home. That is quite right enough and it would be wrong to neglect it. But all our plans will come to shipwreck on the rock of human selfishness unless we turn to God. BACK TO GOD, that is the chief need of England and of every nation.
@@NamarasaPodcast Thank you for your reply, Namarasa Prabhu. However, this quote from Srila Prabhupada-lilamrita simply states the obvious - that Srila Prabhupada (then Abhay Caranaravinda Prabhu) saw a statement by the Archbishop, that happened to be very similar in form to the Gaudiya-matha's motto coined by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswami, as an opportunity to preach. It does not prove that it was the first time Srila Prabhupada heard that statement and then appropriated it as the title of his own magazine, much less that the motto of his magazine had nothing to do with actually going back to Vaikuntha, as Swami Padmanabha contends. Therefore my humble request for Swami Padmanabha to either substantiate or rescind his claim remains. Many thanks.
MM dasa, another proof is in the Mula Prakriti devi dasi's book Srila Prabhupad our well wisher, wherein she interviewed the person who was in the room when BSST coined the title for the magazine BTG, in bengali as Ghar phire chalo. I have come accross a BSST disciple Y Jagannatham's book called Endless Love. The book is about how the Jiva falls down from the spiritual world into this material world. There are many quotes from BVT wherein he explicitly states the Jiva was in the spiritual world and left Krishna and came to the material world.
@@vishnubuddha4188 Srila BVT throughout his Jaiva Dharma and Caitanya Shikshamrita has talked about Fall from a "Tatastha Region" not from Vaikuntha.
1.55.28 Krishna is not creating anything. Everything already existing.
But Brahma samhita: Ishvara parama Krishna …….. sarva karan karanam?
In (42:35) Swami B. P. Padmanabha quotes Narada Muni as concluding in SB 4.28.65 that "the purpose of this story, an allegorical one, was not to indicate that we fell from nitya-lila". In (43:10) Namarasa interjects: "Who says that?" and Swami Padmanabha reaffirms: "Narada Muni [in the] last verse of this chapter, mentioning that all that is mentioned is not to point that we fell from Vaikuntha".
*Fact check:* This statement is false. Neither the verse itself nor its translation by Srila Prabhupada say anything even remotely close to what Swami Padmanabha quotes Narada Muni as saying. Here is the translation:
"My dear King Prācīnabarhi, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the cause of all causes, is celebrated to be known indirectly. Thus I have described the story of Purañjana to you. Actually it is an instruction for self-realization".
I hope Swami Padmanabha will consider correcting himself by clarifying that the above statement was his indirect interpretation of the verse in question rather than its literal or logical import.
Maybe its in the commentary by another acarya like VCT.
@@NamarasaPodcast
//Maybe its in the commentary by another acarya like VCT.//
Sridhara Swami, Jiva Gosvami and Visvanatha Cakravarti say nothing in their commentaries on SB 4.28.65 to the effect that "this story is not meant to indicate that we fell from nitya-lila".
On the contrary, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura writes: "Do not take this to be simply a story. On the pretext of telling a story about a king (pārokṣyeṇa) I have given spiritual instruction. The reason is given. The Lord is fond of indirect expression. I have told a story to you which is beyond the limits of time".
In other words, contrary to what Swami Padmanabha said at (42:35), Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura explicitly describes the story as not a mere allegory, but rather as a retelling of a timeless spiritual truth, or siddhanta. And part of the timeless spiritual truth, or siddhanta, are SB 4.28.53-55, in which the Lord disguised as a brahmana twice tells the living entity that "you have abandoned Me, your original friend, to come to this world", using the verbs "hitva" and "vihaya", both meaning "having rejected/abandoned [Me]".
It would be interesting to know what the rationale for Swami Padmanabha's interpretation of SB 4.28.65 is.
@@NamarasaPodcast Unfortunately, this is not the only instance of inaccurate or unverifiable claims in this and the previous podcast by Swami Padmanabha. I have just fact-checked another one in a separate comment, and am hoping that Swami Padmanabha will either reveal his sources for them or clarify/rectify/retract them as incorrect. Many thanks, Namarasa Prabhu.
ill ask Maharaj to take a look.
@@NamarasaPodcast //I'll ask Maharaj to take a look.//Thank you, I'd appreciate that.
Krishna is equal to all, but some souls find themselves in a place of suffering, and some in prema. But its no one's fault? Nama rasa said "why would Krishna allow me to fall"...but why would Krishna allow you to start your existence in the miserable material world? In the fall idea....someone is responsible, the jiva. In the anadi idea....yea the jiva is responsible for continuing in material existence, but who is responsible for the unequal situation to begin with?
There is no "to begin with". That exact question is addressed in the Vedanta-sutra, and the reply to where it all begin "to begin with" is anadi.
How can you say ishvara did not create everything? He is the original absolute truth. There is nothing superior to Him. Everything is moving by His will.
Gaudiya Vedanta does not follow the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo.
@@SwamiPadmanabha It doesn't ? There is something not created by Krishna ? Now I am really confused....Or, oh, You mean we all always are/were? The jivas, Krishna, hellish planets ? Hmmm. Yeah ok.
@@SwamiPadmanabha Hare Krsna🙏 Then who created Jivas ?and how he Krsna became our God Jeev like me feels anath (orphan) if we don't practice Bhakti or gyan Karma or Krsna instructions then we have to suffer... why we are not free ? because of suffering pain Fear which gives us by Maaya or Prakriti Or God shkti's which works under the control of Supreme God Krsna ...
Because jeev like me feels no independence why I don't feel independence the reason behind it is I suffered too I felt fear too much in my life .Maaya shkti Or prakriti works under the control of Supreme God Krsna🙏
@@braveboy8176 Nobody created the jivas. Jivas are eternal, which means they have never been created. In fact, nothing is created out of nothing. Everything exists eternally, whether we speak of jiva-sakti, maya-sakti or svarupa-sakti.
All these "why´s" questions presuppose the idea that someone chose our condition to be like it is, like if someone decided that before "creating" us. But again, there is no creation out of nothing, so God is not to blame for that.
Everything already is, exists, and the whole system works perfectly: Krishna wants to love us, but love is a voluntary decision. Krishna already made his mind about us by showering unconditional love, but since love is voluntary, we have to choose to love him. And for choosing that we need another choice as well, since if we only have one choice, how much of a choice that is? So the second choice is choosing not to love him, with all the diverse consequences of that.
And we have free will, but how free is our will? It all depends how properly we use it. The more we choose in the direction of loving Krishna, the more free is our will.
@@SwamiPadmanabhaHare Krsna 🙏 Swami ji why are you lying In JAIVA DHARMA there is clearly mentioned that KRSNA CREATED THE JIVAS so weak you can read it here 👉Vrajanātha: Kışņa is karunamaya (full of mercy), so "why did *He make the jiva so weak *that he became entangled in māyā?"
Bābāji: It is true that Krşņa is karuņamaya, overflowing with mercy, however, He is also līlāmaya, overflowing with desire to perform pastimes. Desiring various pastimes to be enacted in different situations, Śrī Krsna made the jiva's eligable for all conditions, from the marginal state to the highest state of mahābhāva. And to facilitate the jiva's progressing practically and steadfastly towards becoming qualified for Krsna's service, He has also created the lower levels of material existence, beginning from the lowest inert matter up to ahańkāra, which are the cause. of unlimited obstruction in attaining paramānanda. Having fallen from their constitutional position, the jīvas who are entangled in māyā are indifferent to Krşņa and engrossed in personal sense gratification. However, Śrī Krşņa is the reservoir of mercy. The
360 JAIVA-DHARMA
CHAPTER 16
more the jiva becomes fallen, the more Krsna provides him with opportunities to attain the highest spiritual perfection. He brings this about by appearing before him along with His spiritual dhāma and His eternal associates. Those jīvas who take advantage of this merciful opportunity and sincerely endeavor to attain the higher position gradually reach the spiritual world and attain a state similar to that of Śri Hari's eternal associates.
Vrajanātha: Why must the jīvas suffer for the sake of Bhagavān's pastimes?
Bābāji: The jīvas possess some independence. This is actually a sign of Bhagavān's special mercy upon them. Inert objects are very insignificant and worthless because they have no such independent desire. The jīva has attained sovereignty of the inert world only because of his independent desire.
Misery and happiness are conditions of the mind. Thus what
we may consider misery is happiness for one engrossed in ir
Since all varieties of material sense gratification@SwamiPadmanabha
Dandavats.
Here is a problem: If we never fell then we have spent an eternity in the material world. And the only way we can get out of this hell is to come in contact with bhakti. So why has Krsna and his devotees allowed us to undergo an infinite number of births before arranging for us to come in contact with bhakti? How is that compassionate? If bhakti-devi has the power to enter our lives why does she not do so for an eternity? And what purpose would be served if Krsna lets us suffer for a infinite number births without any chance of developing bhakti? Vaisnavas criticise the Christian belief in eternal hell because "God would not be such a monster." But the anadi theory is another theory of eternal hell. Eternal hell followed by eternal bliss. Well at least this is better than the Christian idea!
Or is it that we have had sadhu sanga an infinite number of times but messed up an infinite number of times? Scripture says liberation follows quickly after sadhu sanga so this can't be the case, I would say. So it seems that contact with bhakti has a beginning, it is not anadi.
Conclusion: Fall from Vaikuntha, fall from Brahman and we never fell are ALL problematic.
Pranama Govinda Rama. As I mentioned in the podcast, Krishna did not created us nor this world, nor planned in advance for us to suffer here or there--saktiman and sakti exist for eternity, so instead of judging God for what he created (he created nothing) we have to consider him regarding how he behaves to those things which already exist. In connection to the notion of anadi and us being here from time without beginning, this does not imply that Krishna is cruel, because bhakti is there in the world from anadi time, so if we have not chosen to embrace it till now (it is not inherent! :), then Krishna is not to fault for that. Bhakti has the power to enter into our lives, but love is a voluntary affair and we have to express our own will accepting her approach. The fact that bhakti is a causeless gift basically means that we did nothing to deserve it, but it also implies that we have to use our volition to accept such a gift.
@@SwamiPadmanabha My obeisances, Swami Padmanabha. Some of your claims in this podcast appear to be incorrect. I have begun fact-checking them as separate comments here and would be grateful for your response. Many thanks.
@@giftprabhupada Pranama MM Dasa, sorry for the delay in my reply, quite busy in Navadvipa these last weeks. Before replying to your questions, I would like to ask you the following: Is the intention of your questions to prove that I am wrong on this topic, and that the jiva actually falls from Vaikuntha? Because if that is the case, I would not engage in that conversation, since I have already shared considerable sastra-pramana about how that is not our Gaudiya siddhanta.
@@SwamiPadmanabha Thank you for your response, Maharaja. At this point my intention is just to clarify and verify the sources (if any) for some of your statements in this podcast, starting with the two above. I hope you see this intention as legitimate by itself, regardless of its possible ramifications for the larger issue at hand. Many thanks.
@@giftprabhupada I understand, you intention is accepted. I´ll try to reply to your questions these days, here still quite busy in Nadiya.
Maharaj is explaining away 4.28.53 with 4.28.65 I'm not seeing his logic. Yes, the allegory was instruction in self realization. The allegory is of a brahmana and the queen. The brahmana is God, the queen is the soul. Its an allegory describing something real. Prabhupada says in the purport to 65 that the stories in the Puranas "refer to real facts".
I´m just explaining that section in the context of everything else that sastra has said on this topic, which clearly support no-fall. A text without a context becomes a pretext.
Hare Krishna,
Its is not convincing that Back to Godhead was a preaching technique, and living entities can not go to Goloka.
We see within Iskcon Achaeyas, great learners (Amarendra prabhu, Amogh Leela prabhu), also other swamis from other sampradaya (Kripalu maharaj) and many other saints (eg Sant Tukaram) reference to going back to Goloka and Vaikunth.
That’s absolutely fine. The podcast was more aimed at being informative, at least that was my motivation.
first
Second
57:59 "why would Krishna allow that to happen (the fall of a jiva)". to counter that, why would Krishna allow there to be even a material world? If He is all powerful, why does He even create the material world.
Krishna does not create a material world. Maya-sakti exists eternally along with its energetic source, or saktiman.
@@SwamiPadmanabha But Maaya works under the presidency of Bhagvan Shri Krsna (B. G 9.10,7.14....) Krsna is the causes of all causes (Bhramasamhita )maaya is shadow of Antranga swaroop shkti of Krsna ...Hare Krsna🙏
IN JAIV DHARMA CHAPTER 16 THERE IS CLEARLY MENTIONED THAT KRSNA CREATED THE JIVAS SO WEAK VRAJNATH IS ASKING 👉Vrajanātha: Kışņa is karunamaya (full of mercy), so why did He make the jiva so weak that he became entangled in māyā?
Bābāji: It is true that Krşņa is karuņamaya, overflowing with mercy, however, He is also līlāmaya, overflowing with desire to perform pastimes. Desiring various pastimes to be enacted in different situations, Śrī Krsna made the jiva's eligable for all conditions, from the marginal state to the highest state of mahābhāva. And to facilitate the jiva's progressing practically and steadfastly towards becoming qualified for Krsna's service, He has also created the lower levels of material existence, beginning from the lowest inert matter up to ahańkāra, which are the cause. of unlimited obstruction in attaining paramānanda. Having fallen from their constitutional position, the jīvas who are entangled in māyā are indifferent to Krşņa and engrossed in personal sense gratification. However, Śrī Krşņa is the reservoir of mercy. The
360 JAIVA-DHARMA
CHAPTER 16
more the jiva becomes fallen, the more Krsna provides him with opportunities to attain the highest spiritual perfection. He brings this about by appearing before him along with His spiritual dhāma and His eternal associates. Those jīvas who take advantage of this merciful opportunity and sincerely endeavor to attain the higher position gradually reach the spiritual world and attain a state similar to that of Śri Hari's eternal associates.
Vrajanātha: Why must the jīvas suffer for the sake of Bhagavān's pastimes?
Bābāji: The jīvas possess some independence. This is actually a sign of Bhagavān's special mercy upon them. Inert objects are very insignificant and worthless because they have no such independent desire. The jīva has attained sovereignty of the inert world only because of his independent desire.
Misery and happiness are conditions of the mind. Thus what
we may consider misery is happiness for one engrossed in ir
Since all varieties of material sense gratification@@SwamiPadmanabha
I would like to think it is Krishna that is removing my previous memories of this ridiculous life I am still living, but I fear it is just alzheimers..... Either way it qualifies as mercy.
You don't have to fall from Vaikuntha, you can just descend like Krishna does often to do some Work over here...
Actually, Snowflakes
Are
Also falling down, but not in
A damaging Manner that is
An Embarrassment on that
Aspect of the
Absolute Truth. Rather, just
As Mother Earth is not only
Able to
Absorb the Moisture, created
As the Snowflakes
Are melting into the Earth.
Actually, Mother Nature's
Arrangement is exactly for
Absorbing that Higher, Pure
And Heavenly Vibration...
If this is not "LEAVE-VADA, as you call it, then I don't know what is :)
Kindly repeat that in ENGLISH, Miss.☝️
Incidentally, are you VEGAN? 🌱
He is too young to be a Swami. Very disturbing trend for ISKCON. Kirtanananda was initiated at 30. He wanted power, prestige and worship and had no life experience. Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.
He is not from ISKCON.
Just because some fell down doesn't mean everyone will fall down. Srila Jaypataka Swami Maharaj was initiated as a Sanyasi at the age of 21, Now Maharaj has completed 51 years of Sanyas and is the longest Standing Sanyasi in ISKCON.
We must respect everyone.
There is a deliberate attempt to discredit Srila Prabhupada. I see such things do happen in your podcasts for grabbing eyeballs, but ultimately, try to not flow away with their thoughts. The jiva's svaroop itself is the indication that somehow he is in an unhealthy unnatural circumstances. So, the actual state is in service of Krsna, whether Vaikuntha or Devidham, hardly matters. All energies are eternal. But material time is only to make the jiva aware of the arrangement of getting off the limitations of changing bodies, and ultimately, re unite in svaroop in cintamani dham. So, any time( material time or spiritual time) there is a free will to serve Krsna or serve oneself.
I don’t think there is an attempt to discredit His Divine Grace. I think it’s simply that we have Prabhupada AND the books of the Goswamis. So we can have both. I’m not sure of your other points.
They glorify Srila Prahbupada in the podcast. Sorry you feel differently