the best way to know about Orthodox Theology is to go to Liturgy on Sundays and there you will see it being played out. "Taste and see that the Lord is good; blessed is the man who takes refuge in him." Psalm 34:8(NIV)
Read "Welcome to the Orthodox Church" by Frederica Mathewes-Green for starters. It gave me a quick rundown behind some practices and theology, making my first time a little less awkward. Or, you could look up (Eastern) Orthodox churches nearby and go there before reading. Either way, it's very beautiful.
Holy Orthodox Church kept the Fullness of Truth and for that reason we can follow our Lord Jesus Christ in his original Church. And you worship a human (Pope or pastor depending to what NGO you belong to).
Somewhere towards the end of this video, it finally got down to the real essence of what Orthodox Christianity is all about for me - mercy and compassion. "It's not a judgmental religion," said an Orthodox priest. Bingo - that alone distinguishes it from all the Protestant, evangelical and other Western churches that are out there. Up until that point, this video, with all its emphasis on unbroken apostolic succession, seemed to be tailor made for the ultra-conservative or dyed in the wool traditionalist.
I am greek , Orthodox . And on the contrary to "believe and don't search ( Πίστευε και μη ερεύνα ) i went through "believe or not search " And my searches result was to go closer to orthodoxy ( the right way ) . I will not judge those who say anything against orthodoxy , or even against my belief . I am not GOD to judge them . What i believe is this . Because i want now to believe even more than ever before .
valmorgan Horrible advice from my fellow Orthodox to someone seeking to convert. I advise you seek out a local Orthodox Parish Priest some where in your city. Search specifically for an Antiochian Church, OCA Church, or Greek usually they are American born priests and wont have a language barrier. Message me if you have any questions, and god bless you on your journey back home to Orthodoxy!
Orthodox Christian and you are supposed to be christian . Jesus said that " believe or not , search " If he searches he will find the truth , like i did. And it was my search , within me mostly , that brought me closer to God . I tell you that nowdays all churches ARE corrupted .Only few keep the path . All those so called christians , name them orthodox , catholic , protestants . They turned out to betray Lord and his teaching . You want to really do something ? Be a good man , be a good christian . Going to a catholic or orthodox church everyday will not make you a good christian . Your acts towards others will. Love is the path of god , not a church .
Dennis Rivers the church , is nothing more than you and me and anyone else coming together to pray God . Honor him and his wish with just prayers like the Pharisees . This what He wants ? Staying in a temple for a couple of hours ? Or acts of love anytime anywhere . We are loosing the path .
Giannis Kavala St James says in the Gospel that faith is dead without good works that I agree. However our Lord and Savior said " The Gates of Hades will not prevail against the church he made." So where is the Church that Christ established? It is simply the Orthodox Church which is the fulfillment of Orthodox Judaism. Your man made philosophy is no more then New Age Beliefs. Our God is a God of order not of Chaos. He is very specific on how we should worship him. Why not go to church and worship god as he has commanded, he is present in church during the divine liturgy. I used to have the same philosophy as you it leads to chaos. You should get in contact with a local parish Priest near you and talk to him about your doubts.
3. The fact that they felt they had to report against the abuses of iconography is one of the strongest kinds of historical evidence that use of imagery in Christian worship had by that time become very widespread, implying that their anti-imagery attitude was in the minority. Therefore the Church as a whole in those days loved icons.
Also, I would recommend visiting an Orthodox parish; Orthodoxy is a thing that can't really be grasped by means of books and reading; it has to be experienced in community in order to be understood. What part of the country (I assume you're in the US?) are you in? I know Orthodox Christians in practically every major city that can recommend a good church to you.
This has helped me with understanding Orthodoxy so much more. I'm more Orthodox than I think. I am seeking after being Catholic and Evangelical. Pray for me!! Thank you Lord Jesus Son of God!!
For the record, I've been venerating icons for years, and never have I ever even considered worshiping the image itself as God/a god. Have you ever asked an Orthodox if he thought he was worshiping wood and paint? I've never met one. I think you're culturally uncomfortable with religious art and are reaching for a theological justification for your reaction.
The truth is that religion is a deception. God created man, man created religion. Jesus said I Am the way, not religion is the way. Jesus said Follow Me, not follow men and then pick some brand of religion that tickles your fancy and follow it too. Only JESUS is the truth!! He is the truth, the way, the life, the light and the narrow gate through which we must enter. Turn away from religion now! Come out of her and partake not of her sins and receive not of her plagues!! Pick up your cross and follow Jesus!!!
I think that Mormonism and Protestantism are no way comparable. I have a lot of respect for much of traditional Lutheranism, but the LDS "church" is a johnny-come-lately impostor with no foundational doctrinal continuity to Christianity, and it was founded by an American occultist and Freemason, (by his own admission!)
Want to be popular with a protestant? Remind them the Luther was a Mystery religion initiate and later complained that the protestants were not building charities or orphanages like the Catholics. He knew his choice to put all salvation on an interior opinion of faith alone was a political choice, not a sincere one.
8:32 the music is so beautiful. They are sining "Koudus" ie "Holy" from the Trisagion hymn. Anyone know what particular recording that is from? So powerful
Yes I know how old this is . I am in the middle of becoming Orthodox and I wish I had found it decades ago. It was meant for me and it took me this long I might have 20 good years left and maybe another couple on a credit card! :-)
To my Eastern brothers and sisters in Christ. Russian, Romanian, Greece. Peace be upon you all. I understand that the schism of 1054 was a devastating event for us. Because of our theological differences, the perspective point of view on eternal salvation and eternal damnation, doctrine issues too. But rest assured, when we all die. Christ the righteous judge will decide whether we will enter Heaven or not. We cannot let our differences separate us and make us each other enemies. Instead we should trust in God, Jesus Christ, the reliance of the Saints, pray for each other. My hope is that we'll be bound for Heaven. We'll all be united in Heaven. This i swear. Amen.
Have mercy on him, pray for him, be slow to judge and speak with kindness and love. I believe we need to counsel the doubtful and instruct the ignorant while avoiding the temptation to judge them. Besides, by counseling, instructing and praying for these folks, we grow stronger in our own faith. Peace of the Lord be with you.
Regardless of what Christian denomination you follow. Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant. Lutheran, Baptist, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Congregational, Anglican/Episcopalian and so on. The Jehovah's Witness aren't Christian. Nor are the Mormons. Me, I grew up in a Irish Catholic family. And attending Sunday mass plays a vital role in my life.
Thank you very much it was wonderful. Blessed be the thrice blessed Philip Blessed be the thrice blessed Ignatius Patriarchs of Antioch. We are so blessed my daughter my granddaughter, who was three, and I converted to Orthodoxy December 16th 2016 what a blessed day that was. Metropolitan Philip said girls could serve behind the altar, my granddaughter has served St George of Troy because Father Joseph allows her, since she was seven years old she is now fourteen. May the Lord continue to bless Father Joseph. May the Lord continue to bless Richard and Walid of St George of Troy who seem to give to the Lord continuously. Today is Orthodox Sunday 2018 blessed be Irene and Theodora may their blessings continue on the Orthodox.
You seem pretty committed to your conclusions; I don't know what I can say to help you consider any other perspective. May God bless you in your walk with Him.
You have raised a good point and argued it intelligently and non-offensively. I want to thank you for that. If you would be so kind, give me some time to trace the origins of the commandment, the interpretations of it, translations of it, and how icons became such a part of our faith. I'll get back to you once I do. Would you have any other reading (than what's listed below) or things you think I should examine to further my education?
Excerpt from “Christians and Images: Early Christian Attitudes Toward Images” by Steven Bigham Short excerpt from the chapter “The Jewish Attitudes Toward Images” “...What then is the simple, clear and elegant interpretation that explains the changing attitudes and practices of ancient Judaism concerning images? It is based on a reading of the Second Commandment that clearly distinguishes between an idolatrous art, obviously forbidden, and a non-idolatrous art, either symbolic, decorative or pedagogical. This latter kind of art is allowed in a context where the danger of idolatry is minimal or nonexistent. This interpretation is not artificially imposed on the biblical text from the outside, but rather derives directly from the text itself. By reading Dt 5:8-9 together as the expression of one idea, we arrive at a prohibition of idolatrous art alone. By reading the two verses separately as two commandments, we eliminate the category of non-idolatrous art. If we reread all the historical, archeological and literary evidence in the light of these two categories of art, we will see that the theory of Jewish hostility toward all figurative art is untenable 2.3 The Application of the Hypothesis. Let us begin with a few Old Testament events that demonstrate the distinction described above. They show how it operated in a period when, according to the theory that claims an absolute rejection of images in Israel, we ought to find very stringent practices. We can, first of all, eliminate those events that obviously associate images and idolatry: for example, 1) the golden calf that the people erected when Moses was late in coming down from the mountain (Ex. 32); 2) the statue of Nebuchadnezzar (Dn 3-4); 3) the statue of Zeus that Antiochus Epiphanes set up in the Temple (1 M 1:41-64); 4) the statue of himself that Caligula wanted to put in the Temple. Other examples of idolatry could be cited, but let us study rather the examples which undermine the credibility of the rigorist interpretation of the Second Commandment and which confirm the thesis of at least two kinds of images. • The cherubim on the ark of the testimony: Ex 25:122. We have here images of angelic beings, even made of gold like the calf in Ex. 23, which are not in the least likely to become idols or to take God's place, because, as His throne, He sits between them. Placed so close to God Himself and so intimately linked with the worship of the true God, the cherubim could never be separated from that worship and become themselves the object of misdirected, idolatrous worship. The cherubim on the Ark of the Testimony are a real problem for the advocates of rigorism, because God Himself ordered Moses to have them made. The untenable contradiction in the divine commands disappears if we assume a relative interpretation of the Second Commandment that allows for non-idolatrous, liturgical images. • The embroidered cherubim in the tabernacle: Ex 26:1, 31. God also ordered that cherubim be embroidered on ten curtains of fine linen for use in the tabernacle. It seems that there were at least ten cherubim, one for each curtain, but the text does not specify the exact number of cherubim. In addition, God ordered that a veil be placed between the Holy and the Holy of Holies of the tabernacle. This veil was also decorated with cherubim, though the text again does not state their size or number. What we said above for the sculpted cherubim on the Ark of the Testimony is equally valid for these images. The praise of Bezalel: Ex 31:1-11. After having ordered Moses to prepare the tabernacle and its furnishings, God designated Bezalel, son of Uri, to be the master workman, to design and to execute all the art work necessary for the tabernacle. Oholiab, son of Ahisamack, was also named along with all the other men "that they may make all that I have commanded you. . ." Among other things, these workers made the mercy seat whose two ends were decorated with the winged cherubim. The praise which God gives to Bezalel and the other artists, seeing that their task was to sculpt golden figurative images, would be contradictory and out of place in the context of an absolute prohibition against the making of all images. God's words go beyond simple praise; their tone comes close to that of a special consecration, as in the case of a prophet: ‘I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with ability and intelligence, with knowledge and all craftsmanship, to devise artistic designs, to work in gold, silver and bronze... and I have given to all able men ability that they may make all that I have commanded you.’ We have clearly expressed in this passage, the distinction between the two kinds of images: when an artist, an image maker, sculpts non- idolatrous, liturgical images for the glory of God, he is praised and blessed by God. The natural corollary follows, however: if an artist makes idols, he will be condemned. The bronze serpent: Nm 21:4-9. God again orders that a "graven image" be made, an image of something "that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth," a bronze serpent. The purpose of making the serpent was to serve as an antidote to the poisonous snakes God sent to punish the people who spoke against Him and Moses. By looking at the bronze snake, those who were bitten would not die. This story shows how a sculpted image can be used in a non-idolatrous way but according to the rigorist interpretation of the Second Commandment, this image should not have been permitted. Centuries later, however, when this image-was it really the snake Moses made, or a reproduction?-became an object of idolatrous worship, King Hezekiah destroyed it and other objects of idolatrous worship with which Israel had contaminated itself (see 2 K 18:1-4). This episode shows how an object, an image, normally not considered to be an idol, can become one. Idolatry is determined by a person's intention and attitude toward an image, and not by the image itself. Who would go so far as to say that museums that contain paintings or statues of mythical deities are pagan temples? Who would even use the word idol to talk about these images?...Since the Israelites offered idolatrous worship to the serpent, a thing that previously was not an idol, became one. It is interesting to note that Hezekiah did not seem at all concerned that the image of the serpent, at least the one made by Moses, existed by divine command. For Hezekiah, whatever the origin, human or divine, of an image that has become an idol, it deserves to be destroyed. Solomon's temple: 1 K 6:23-35 & 7:15-37. Solomon's Temple was a veritable art gallery; it is also a nightmare for the advocates of the rigorist interpretation. For the Temple's Holy of Holies, Solomon had two enormous cherubim sculpted out of wood and covered in gold. The king also had cherubim, palm trees and open flowers sculpted on all the walls of the Temple, and the door to the Holy of Holies was covered with these same images. He also put carved pomegranates on the capitals of columns. The molten sea sat on 12 bulls, and on the frames of the panels that formed the 10 stands, he put lions, bulls and cherubim. We can use the same argument here as in the case of the cherubim in the desert tabernacle: where there is no risk of turning worship of God toward sculpted images, this figurative art can have a place in worship. On the basis of this principle, Solomon felt quite free to put such images in the Temple, and by so doing, he introduced new types of non-idolatrous images, new in comparison with the tabernacle in the desert. It is important to note that beside all the reproaches that subsequent biblical authors made against Solomon, the wise king was never criticized for having broken the Second Commandment [in the making of non-idolatrous images in the Temple.] Flavius Josephus, however, did reproach Solomon for having introduced bulls and lions into the Temple, for him a violation of the commandment. We will examine this reproach later on and see that it is absolutely unique in all of Jewish literature. • Solomon's Throne: 1 K 10:18-20. Solomon had lions carved on his throne, a place obviously less holy than the Temple, but nonetheless of great importance. It was the royal seat of the Lord's anointed: ‘The king also made a great ivory throne [which] had six steps, and at the back of the throne was a calf's head and on each side of the seat were arm rests and two lions standing beside the arm rests, while twelve lions stood there one on each end of a step on the six steps. The like of it was never made in any kingdom.’ The biblical author not only did not criticize these "graven images," but he was manifestly impressed by them and quite proud of the king's glory as revealed in his throne. • Ezekiel's vision: Ez 41:15-21. After 25 years of captivity, the Prophet Ezekiel had a vision in which he saw the Temple restored. He described the various furnishings of the Temple whose interior, the Holy, was decorated with cherubim and palm trees: "Every cherub had two faces: the face of a man toward the palm tree on the one side, and the face of a young lion toward the palm tree on the other side."
It [is] not impossible that the cherubim on the Ark of the testimony, and in Solomon's Temple, also had human faces, but the biblical text does not make this clear. Ezekiel, on the other hand, clearly introduces, at least in theory and assuming these images did not already exist, a new element into the category of permitted images: the human face. The lions and palm trees have already been noticed. The prophet did not speak of an Ark decorated with cherubim or of sculpted cherubim in the Holy of Holies, following Solomon's example. Nonetheless, since Solomon had giant cherubim sculpted for the real Temple, it is not impossible that Ezekiel would have put them in the future Temple, but in describing the Holy of Holies, Ezekiel spoke only about its measurements, nothing about its furnishings. Concerning the prophet's attitude toward images, we can deduce nothing from his silence regarding the cherubim in the Holy of Holies, the molten sea and the bronze basins held up by bulls and lions. This omission is less significant since he placed cherubim with human and lion faces in the restored Temple. • The real, but mitigated, praise of the engraver: Ec 38:27. ‘So it is with every workman and craftsman, toiling day and night; those who engrave seals, always trying to think of new designs: they set their heart on producing a good likeness, and stay up perfecting the work.’ In this passage, the author praises Jewish engravers and other gifted and able craftsmen. He uses the same tone for farmers, blacksmiths and potters (38:24 - 39:1-11) that are necessary for every city. The skill and usefulness of these workers do not compare, however, with the wisdom of the scribe who in his leisure time "devotes his soul to reflecting on the Law of the Most High." The author's evaluation of these crafts in relation to the scribe-they are obviously on a lower level-is not what is important here. Our attention is drawn rather to the fact that a biblical author had no trouble praising workmen who made non-idolatrous images, even if they were only seals. The text itself does not mention what kinds of images were carved on the seals, but it says that there were always "new designs." Nothing prevents us from supposing that the engravers carved plants, animals and human beings on their seals. The oldest existing Jewish seal dates from 922 to 746 B. C. depending on the factors chosen for its dating47. A lion is carved on the seal. It is less surprising to allow the possibility of carved animals and humans on Jewish seals when we take into account that at a later period, that of the rabbis, even pagan gods, under certain conditions, could be carved on seals.48 • The condemnation of artistes: Ws 13-15. The campaign against idolatry and artists who use their talent to produce idols is sometimes cited as proof of the Old Testament's antipathy against all images and artists. In this vein, Cohen has written the following: ‘The author of the Wisdom of Solomon, who lived during the first century before the C. E., frowned upon the fruitless labor of the painter for another reason [other than idolatry]. According to him, the art of painting "leadeth fools into lust," an evident allusion to Pygmalion, King of Cyprus, who fell in love with a statue of Venus.’49 It is quite true that the author makes some very severe statements against various kinds of artists: ‘No invention of perverted human skill has led us astray, no painter's sterile labour, no figure daubed with as sorted colours, the sight of which sets fools yearning and reverencing the lifeless form of some unbreathing image.’ (Ws15:4-5) It is obvious, however, that the author's fury is directed against idols and artists who make them. Nothing is said about non-idolatrous images, nor the artists who make them. In describing the origin of idol worship, the author of Wisdom describes the progressive transformation of images into idols, images which at the beginning were not idols. For example, he notes the father crying about his prematurely dead son. The father had a portrait made to which eventually the family gave disproportionate veneration (W14:5) Another example is the worship of kings thought to be gods. At first, their images were simply honored, but that veneration progressively turned into idolatry (Ws 14:16-20). In both cases, the real problem seems to have been not the existence of images of human beings, whether portraits or statues, but rather the transformation of honor and veneration into idolatrous worship. This is the same transformation, in a pagan context, that we saw in the biblical story of the bronze serpent which became the object of idolatrous worship. It is possible that the author of Wisdom thought that this transformation was inevitable due to the weakness of foolish men carried away by their passions and the seductive power of images. It is also possible, however, for "intelligent men," that is those who know and worship the true God, not to fall into the same trap as the pagans. Most of the Old Testament passages noted in this section have always been, and still are, part of the standard answers of those who defend Christian images and their veneration against all kinds of iconoclasm based on the Second Commandment. In that sense, we have not brought forward new material. St. John of Damascus, On the Divine Images50 in the eighth century, as well as modern authors51, have noted them, but it is nonetheless important to bring together the biblical evidence which supports the thesis presented in this study.”
Do you accept the teaching of the Holy Apostle Paul? "If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." How dare you pass judgment on those believers in Christ who are outside of the Visible Church? Do you really think that by categorically condemning their relationship to Christ as demonic that you will save even one single soul?
@Mary Yeo: Eusebius had some dogmatic errors. His doctrine about the Holy Trinity is influenced by Origen, which has been anathemized. Also his doctrine on icons was influenced by the same Origen.
May the Lord bring wisdom and understanding to every one of his sons and daughters to sort out the reasons and foundations of our lack of unity. Greetings from Brazil.
may the lord bless their their families and communites and everyone that prays for them and with them, I join their prayer and entrust myself to their intercession forever
Metropolitan Phillip may his memory be eternal. Everyday I praise the Lord that my family found Orthodoxy, Decembers enjoy 2006 we were chrismated. Lord Jesus Christ Son of God have mercy on us.
Amen, the most inspiring thing about orthodoxy is the fact that from what i have studied this far into it, they do not condemn people. The orthodox Church is one of great tradition, and unwavering faith. I am not sure how anyone who watched this video could disagree with the facts presented. In the end orthodoxy is complex, and converts can feel out of place, but as a catechumen i have seen that the orthodox Church is a very welcoming community of believers.Through Love we spread the Faith.
I do believe in God. And with so many different variants of the faith it makes me overwhelmed as to which it the true church. But then again I am reminded as told in the Testament Jesus said that he would make his new church in us. That the temple of God was within the hearts of men. This Orthodoxy seems interesting. I will tend one and see for myself what its really like.
there are over 30,000 different Christian sects (including the many sects of Protestantism... some of which don't even believe in Christ. In my experience, having spoken at many different churches, there are baptists who don't even believe the same as other baptists. Too many inconsistencies within Protestantism... but that doesn't mean there aren't pious Christians outside of Orthodoxy or Catholicism.
In regards to Eusebius, et al. 1. We don't know if they were protesting icons or just 3D statuary (I was raised a Mexican Catholic, and in Mexico I have seen how 3D can lend itself to idolatry) 2. We know that they were protesting something, but we don't know that the whole Church agreed with them. You can find a Church Father to support practically any theological position if you look hard enough.
Calling me a liar is a pretty serious accusation. Are you sure you want to do that? That anathema above comes from a "council" which is considered heretical by the Orthodox. It's not our council at all. Looking at the anathemas from the other councils which the Orthodox consider legitimate, the principle I have laid out above still holds true. Anathemas are statements about the danger of adopting heresy, which causes one to separate himself from the Body of Christ, the Church.
"And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshipped, and he said to him, ‘What do you command your servant, my lord (NOT Lord)?'" (Joshua 5,14) => Joshua stood before an angel. /watch?v=0RTUHeDFu1A If bowing before e.g. a King is not a worship, then bowing before a Saint is not either. If kissing e.g. a beloved person's photograph is not a worship, then kissing a Saint's icon is not either.
Because it's not fiction. It's actually how the Orthodox understand themselves. The Orthodox do not approach any of their doctrine or scripture at face value alone. That's a Protestant approach.
It seems many in this thread are forgetting the basics. Quite simply put: LOVE. Love of God, neighbor, self; speak with kind words (not anger) and pray that the Lord may quiet and humble our passions. We are warned several times in scriptures in several ways about judging others. Simply put, no matter what denomination, religion or faith is right or wrong; best or worst; we should pray for those who are fallen that they may be redeemed before the final judgement. All is in God's hands.
Bowing before icons in the Orthodoxy, is considered as an act of honor, not worship! In Ex. 20,4-5 God forbids the worship bowing. So as John (who was fully aware of the 10 commandments) bowed 2 times before an angel (Ap. 19,10 & 22,8-9) he obviously didn't worship the angel and the angel didn't rejected his bowing as heretic, but only due to humility reasons. Yet in the case of Joshua 5,13-15 we see that the angel accepts(!) Joshua's bowing. See also Ap.3,9 and the promise of Jesus to a human!
the Pope AND the Patriarchs are all one in the faith of Jesus and come down from the early times...we have to all get back together for the Love of Jesus!!!!!As a Catholic I am am privileged to receive communion on the altar and i can feel Jesus presence so strong.. I love my Orthodox brothers as well and.we all need to stop this separation!!
If you're trying to return to living the NT church of Acts you should join Orthodoxy. Western church-"Catholicism" has made many doctrinal innovations after its separation from the Church in 1054 (purgatory, immaculate conception of Mary, papal supremacy and infallibility etc)
Why can't it be both? Christ continues incarnating himself ever time a new Christian is baptized into the community of the Body, the Church. Christ makes each one of us a temple, a little Christ in microcosm. That's the meaning of the word, "Christian," actually!
In the Roman Catholic Church, there’s been a severe shortage of Catholic priest and perhaps that’s the reason why many Roman Catholics are converting. But despite of what’s going on, never will I leave the Roman Catholic Church. Even if I do, I hope my parents and family won’t be upset with me.
Such vocations are actually flourishing in the real Catholic Church, but in the counterfeit Vatican II sect currently lead by heretic and apostate Antipope Francis, they are dieing out. In my small town parish church of 500+ people, made up of mostly young families and people below the age of 50, we have 4 priests and 6 Dominican nuns and 3 private Catholic schools. Anyway, the Novus Ordo sect is not Catholic, it's a new a religion created by Zionist Jews and Freemasons that has a new mass, new catechism, new rites of ordination, etc, something Our Lady warned would happened in her various apparitions . The traditional Catholic faith is the only Catholic faith and the Vatican II sect is not Catholi , so it's important that you don't confuse the two. As for Orthodoxy, you don't want to convert to that heretical false religion that is schismatic and polytheistic in doctrine. Check out this video, it exposes and debunks Eastern "Orrhodoxy", proving that it's a false religion and not true Christianity. m.th-cam.com/video/d07mgLoOW8g/w-d-xo.html
@@lukebrasting5108.... Who changed the Symbol of Faith ? By saying that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son? Jesus Christ revealed in John 15:26 that the Spirit proceeds from the Father. Roman Catholicism is heretical and based on deception.
8. In 754 the first “Seventh Ecumenical Council” met and condemned the icons. “If anyone ventures to represent in human figures, by means of material colours, by reason of the incarnation, the substance or person (ousia or hypostasis) of the Word, which cannot be depicted, and does not rather confess that even after the Incarnation he [i.e., the Word] cannot be depicted, let him be anathema!” (Ninth Statement.)
Anathemas are made to condemn doctrines, not the people who hold them. When the councils pronounce anathemas, they do so to underscore the seriousness of publicly teaching false doctrines which divide the Church-- if you promulgate false-teaching X, you are cutting *yourself* off from the Body of Christ. They are not made in order to spread hate.
6. The first "Seventh Ecumenical Council" (754) because it condemned icons. It is also known as the "Council of Hieria". It stated: If anyone ventures to represent in human figures, by means of material colours, by reason of the incarnation, the substance or person (ousia or hypostasis) of the Word, which cannot be depicted, and does not rather confess that even after the Incarnation he [i.e., the Word] cannot be depicted, let him be anathema!"
“…theologically unfounded?” Don’t you accept the teaching of the one holy catholic and apostolic Church? “Let not the Symbol of Faith be set aside…but let it remain unchanged: and let every heresy be given over to anathema…” Canon I of the Second Ecumenical Synod
My immediate family is Catholic, Orthodox, evangelical...underfoot in my life. I read and pray a lot about this. We all need each other...each split took something vital and weakened the Body of our Lord on earth. The "real" church will return only when obey Him. However, what do I feel? I don't want to be a coward and have no opinion. I believe orthodoxy comes closest to Heaven in the service....it's impossible to participate an not experience this. The Roman Catholic has this plus...it stoops to the weakest, the most common, and the weaknesses in each of us. It's the church of the Roman forums, the street, the Latin speaking poor. We need each other. I ask, if the "right" church was denied your attendance by poverty or distance...if you didn't have the gas to go 40 miles to the True Church...would you stay away from church altogether?
@kollyvades Well, even if those allegations were true, you would do well to pray for them with the pure love of Jesus Christ and free yourself from the chains of judgment you have hung around your own neck. I know Fr. John; he just retired from his service to St. Anthony's parish in San Diego.
4. Eusebius (c. 327) insisted that even the incarnate Christ cannot appear in an image. He wrote that o depict purely the human form of Christ before its transformation, on the other hand, is to break the commandment of God and to fall into pagan error." (David M. Gwynn, From Iconoclasm to Arianism: The Construction of Christian Tradition in the Iconoclast Controversy [Greek, Roman, and Byzantine Studies 47 (2007) 225-251], p. 227.)
Eusebius is not recognized as a church father or saint, so his opinion doesn’t matter. What matters is the consensus of the majority of the Church Fathers, and in the 7th ecumenical council the Fathers commanded the use of icons by Christians. St. John of Damascus wrote, “In times past, God, without body and form, could in no way be represented. But now, since God has appeared in flesh and lived among men, I can depict that which is visible of God. I do not venerate the matter, but I venerate the Creator of matter, who became matter for me, who condescended to live in matter, and who, through matter, accomplished my salvation; and I do not cease to respect the matter through which my salvation is accomplished.”
No. It's a simply matter of the "orthodox" doing exactly what is prohibited in the 2nd commandment -- making a likeness and bowing before it. Then they change the name of the sin and call it "venerating icons" thinking that that makes it less sinful. The early church prohibited such things, see quotes from Elvira, Eusebius, and Epiphanius below.
Take your time and devote much prayer to you're desire to join the Holy Orthodox Church . Bear in mind the Church its self is holy , the people in it are not . I would also suggest you seek out an Antiochian Orthodox Church , or the Orthodox Church in America . Both serve English language Divine Liturgies , and are free of the ethnic politics found elsewhere .
I am tired of your ridiculous copy n paste comments. Why even come on here and comment? no one is asking or forcing you to be orthodox....are you just a keyboard fighter?? Here to 'stir things up?? Orthodoxy has not only stood the test of time but has proven itself over and over again. It's people like you that help us preserve our faith and also ensure people like you dont come along with silly ideas and destroy everything we stand for.....
12:13 I think that's the crux of the thing. "We go to church to have a spiritual experience." Much as I am fond of liberal Christianity, this is where is really misses the mark. Milquetoast and dumbed-down worship doesn't produce a "spiritual experience"
If you're looking for an Orthodox Christian to condemn you, you'll have to try elsewhere, if you can find one at all, that is. I do not condemn or judge you. God bless you, and pray for me, a sinner.
Hi. Im a traditional Roman Catholic. At one point I nearly converted to Greek Orthodoxy, but I ended up where I am now, after going through sedevacantism and reconciliation. I am curious to know your position on Roman Catholics and on the pope specifically. I once had an Orthodox friend who argued the Holy Father was a valid bishop who just has too much power.
The original patriarchs of Alexandria and Antioch separated from Rome and Constantinople at the Council of Chalcedon. The patriarch of Constantinople was created for political reason at Chalcedon, as well.
The separations happened at the Schism of 1054 a,d, Rome separated itself from The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic church at that time. The separation simply inspired Luther to separate from Rome in the 1500's and those separations simply continue today,
You comment is not totally true. There exists two Patriarchs in Alexandria and Antioch, one Eastern Orthodox and the other Oriental Orthodox. The Oriental Orthodox are not in communion with Rome or the Eastern Orthodox. The Patriarch was not created for political reasons. If anyone was political it was the pope in Rome.
The disagreements that the Eastern Orthodox have with the Coptics is far older and historically speaking there was never any kind of a official schism as between the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Churches.
Sort of. There were pro-imperial factions within both churches which accepted Chalcedon and remained loyal to the emperor. These were called "Melkite" in Antioch, melek = king in Arabic. These days they call themselves "Roum Osodoxi" meaning Roman Orthodox, as the Byzantines did not call themselves "Byzantines," but rather called themselves "Romans." These groups elected new patriarchs for their respective sees which were in turn commemorated by the Church in Constantinople, so arguments for the "legitimacy" of the non-Chalcedonian vs Chalcedonian group in either country is really a matter of assumptions--is the teaching Chalcedon truth or heresy?
You really think that there was no worshiping of God going on as the Christians were burying their dead? No singing, no incense? You're correct in asserting that the Lord's Supper, the primary act of Christian worship, was *probably* not celebrated in the catacombs, but there are places in the catacombs decorated with 2nd Century Last Supper symbolism, complete with an altar table.
James Rockford Please view my site below if time permits and click on the link top left for 'salvation' theOrthodoxFaith (dot) org Feel free to ping me with any questions. Thanks.
Who are you to pass judgment? Even if they are gay, what bearing does that have on their decision to embrace the True Faith or their own personal holiness? This is at best a red herring and at worst soul-destroying gossip. Ugh. Hyper-Orthodox internet trolls will be my undoing.
In Orthodoxy, what is Hagia Sophia? What is Holly Wisdom? This teaching is unique to Orthodoxy, but, why do the Orthodox people talk so little about it?
Nice video, but the history presented is simplistic and abridged. The Eastern Orthodox must be more open about the politics that shaped it, the Roman Catholic and Oriental Orthodox Churches. The Coptic Orthodox church is, and has remained, the Patriarch of Alexandria. God bless that the beliefs of the two Orthodoxies remain the same. Perhaps one day they will be in full communion.
The "rock" was never Peter The corner rock in the foundation of the Christian Church is a certain statement of Peter, and not Peter himself! The rock talked about upon which Lord Jesus was going to build His Church was not a material rock as in bricks and stones, but the SPIRITUAL TRUTH (a teaching) that Lord Jesus is the Son of the living God. [Mathew 16:16] “And Simon Peter answer ed and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”. Lord Jesus answers: upon this rock (this Truth) I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [Mathew 16:18] “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
It is not true that the authority of Apostles was restricted into a single town or area. Apostolic authority (that ended up with the last of the Apostles, John) had to do with the whole of Church as through this authority all local Bishops were ordained! Recall what St. Paul wrote to the Corinthians: "and, in addition to these things, which are external: there is my daily earnestness and solicitude FOR ALL THE CHURCHES." [2Corinthians 11:28]
Joseph Conder If St. Paul succeeded St. Peter in Antioch, that is a new one on me. I dont think St. Paul knew that he was Bishop of Antioch. St. Ignatius of Antioch might differ
You're oversimplifying things. Surely you've read about God's command to create the two angels on the Ark of the Covenant and to adorn the Temple with images of animals. You really think the first Christians who died for Christ and painted the catacombs were idolaters?
Hi there, I'm a reformed Protestant, and I hope you will know that we Protestants are united, but we are not united by our buildings or names, but by our common faith and doctrine concerning the Lord Jesus Christ. Please do not bundle us in with LDS, Mormons, or liberal churches, that would be a grave mistake. I personally am trying to return to living the NT church of Acts. I looked into Catholicism and found it to be apostate in dogma (esp. Marian, purgatory) God bless in your journey.
I accidentally omitted an "Not": It should be: "If they try to re-interpret that later and say they are NOT anathematizing the actual people, they are lying." Anathemas are directed at people, not just their ideas. Hence, "orthodox" history is replete with condemnation of people.
It means that as Christianity was spreading, some of the former pagans were bringing their pagan practices with them into the church, like the use of images. And so the bishops responded pastorally to that by clearly teaching that Christian worship does not use icons. Canon 36 of the Council of Elvira states, "Pictures are not to be placed in churches, so that they do not become objects of worship and adoration." Later the "orthodox" church was overwhelmed by paganism and broke from tradition.
...And yet, yesterday, the Patriarch of Constantinople announced he plans to attend the inauguration of Pope Francis. Such a thing has not happened since anno domini 1054. I think we are fast on the road to reunification :D
he Orthodox Broke Away from the Tradition of the Early Church 5. Epiphanius, Bishop of Salamis, to John, Bishop of Jerusalem (c. 394) in Letter 51: I went in to pray, and found there a curtain hanging on the doors of the said church, dyed and embroidered. It bore an image either of Christ or of one of the saints; . . .. Seeing this, and being loath that an image of a man should be hung up in Christ's church contrary to the teaching of the Scriptures, I tore it asunder . . . .
Kopar'RUS He's the happy-clappy ultra right-wing brother of famous actor, Alec Baldwin. He has "acted" in several B-grade movies, and generally makes a nuisance of himself when it comes to politics because of his family's fame. His political ineptitude is exceeded only by his lack of acting ability.
LOL if you're at all familiar with the concreteness of Orthodox theology expressed in those church services, you'd see very quickly that this is merely a sound-byte taken from a man whose first language is not English. Orthodox worship could be characterized (though not exhaustively so) as "great gobs of theology set to music" as one Protestant observer friend once described. Liberal Christianity? Hardly. Go check out an English liturgy at a parish with a healthy cradle-convert mix. I dare ya.
I have specific references below proving that the early church was strictly opposed to icons. Catacombs were not churches; they were burial places. The subject is the use of images in worship. The Council of Elvira, Eusebius, and Epiphanes document that the early church opposed icons. See below.
Well, if you want to know how the Orthodox contextualize at their own doctrinal statements, including the principle of the anathema, why don't you just ask them?
What we KNOW is that the early church was strictly opposed to images in the church, in worship, of any kind. Canon 36 of the Council of Elvira states, "Pictures are not to be placed in churches, so that they do not become objects of worship and adoration." Eusebius wrote that to depict Christ is to break the commandment of God and to fall into pagan error. Epiphanius (Letter 51) wrote of how he tore down a decorated curtain, telling a fellow bishop that such images are contrary to our religion
No wonder Christianity is diminishing around the world. If the Church can't hold it together and remain ONE as Jesus prayed we would be, why would people in the secular world want to come be a part of such a splintered organization? I grew up in a protestant church, but I realized as an adult that it was not like what I read about in the Scriptures. The Orthodox Church seems to be the most like the Early Church, but who can find a Orthodox Church in many parts of the USA?
This was a somewhat interesting presentation of the Eastern Orthodox Church; however the Oriental Orthodox Church was not mentioned. Why? Perhaps it is because the Oriental Orthodox Church holds the same historical claim to being the true Church of Christ. In fact, the Oriental Orthodox Church has kept the Faith closer (without change) to the early Church. Further I would submit that Christianity (in all its guises) owes its existence today to Constantine the Great making Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire.
jstantoni I don't mean to sound harsh. I'm originally from South India and although born a protestant, i did spend some considerable time (~ 2 years) amongst the monophysites (one nature) before learning about Eastern Orthodoxy. The non-chalcedonians are not called 'orthodox' by any of the Fathers. This is an unfortunate novelty introduced by western pseudo-scholarship to call them 'orthodox and perpetuated by ecumenism. By your argument, why not extent the same principle of inclusion to the Oriental Nestorians as well? They are an even older heresy than monophysitsm. Furthermore, the monophysites are not 'one faith'; they have plurality of worship, theology, and practices amongst them. The only thing that unites them is their opposition to the sound Christology of Chalcedon. The Chalcedonian definition that the Lord after the incarnation has TWO natures, both Divine and Human -- not a mere hybrid (union) of the two as the monophysites / miaphysites assert - is *critical* to the Eastern Orthodox understanding of Theosis; which is at the core of Eastern Orthodox Soteriology. That the Lord has TWO wills -- the wills being a function of the nature -- is likewise *critical* to the Eastern Orthodox understanding of Theosis. For in submitting His Human Will to the Will of the Triune God Luke 22_42, He has given us the prototype that we must also follow. These are not mere semantics as the ecumenists and modernists will have us believe, but they are the very mysteries relating to our salvation which the Eastern Orthodox Church alone has guarded. A different Christology implies a different Christ, a different salvation, a different faith.
+Godly Mathew When you speak about the monophysites, you cannot be referring to the Oriental Orthodox, for they condemn the heresy of monophysitism and, in truth, proclaim that the Logos of God, perfect in his divinity, came and became Man, taking on perfect humanity. Consubstantial with the Father before all ages, consubstantial with the Theotokos in his incarnation. Do not be disrespectful in applying a heresy to a group that has always fought against that same heresy. The split between the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox is an unfortunate one that has gone on way too long. It began and was sustained by strong political motives and events and had little to do with actual theology. We must pray for the union of the Body of Christ, the two families of the Orthodox Church, who have been broken for too long. Both have kept the faith delivered once and for all!
james67707 _whether there be tongues, they shall cease_ - 1 Corinthians 13_8 *The Heresy of the Pentecostals* | 44 mins youtube (*dot*) com/watch?v=o4GWNHXsUrE
james67707 you said: QUOTE> _"your wrong they never ceased.."_ those are not my words - they are the words of the Holy Apostle Paul: _whether there be tongues, _*_they shall cease_* - 1 Corinthians 13_8 you said: QUOTE> _"i never hear of any people getting healed.."_ The Orthodox Church is *the hospital for sinners*. It is the very place of *_true_** healing*.
I feel a strong pull towards the Orthodox Church. It resonates as the one true church
The Orthodox Divine Liturgy is so beautiful and unchanging. I was raised in the Greek Orthodox Church. This was an informative presentation.
Sorry to hear that. I hope you've now left religion and follow Jesus?
@@adamgoodword7888 I don’t think you understood the video.
@@adamgoodword7888 lol, I like to think of the services as worshipping Jesus.
@@adamgoodword7888hope you left your heresy and returned to the church Jesus built.
the best way to know about Orthodox Theology is to go to Liturgy on Sundays and there you will see it being played out. "Taste and see that the Lord is good; blessed is the man who takes refuge in him." Psalm 34:8(NIV)
I think this is the video that has convinced me to turn to the Orthodox Church.
I will look more into it.
Read "Welcome to the Orthodox Church" by Frederica Mathewes-Green for starters. It gave me a quick rundown behind some practices and theology, making my first time a little less awkward. Or, you could look up (Eastern) Orthodox churches nearby and go there before reading. Either way, it's very beautiful.
Robert, I pray you did become orthodox!
The priest wife, Terry in Tennessee
I think i will turn orthodox.
Did you do it?
Welcome Home! ☦️☦️☦️
Our beloved Holy Orthodoxy!
disgusting!! You worship religion over Jesus.
Idol worshiper!!
Holy Orthodox Church kept the Fullness of Truth and for that reason we can follow our Lord Jesus Christ in his original Church. And you worship a human (Pope or pastor depending to what NGO you belong to).
Somewhere towards the end of this video, it finally got down to the real essence of what Orthodox Christianity is all about for me - mercy and compassion. "It's not a judgmental religion," said an Orthodox priest. Bingo - that alone distinguishes it from all the Protestant, evangelical and other Western churches that are out there. Up until that point, this video, with all its emphasis on unbroken apostolic succession, seemed to be tailor made for the ultra-conservative or dyed in the wool traditionalist.
Lutheran here and I agree. A lot of Protestant sects are odd and the LDS and Mormon churches are strange.
I am greek , Orthodox . And on the contrary to "believe and don't search ( Πίστευε και μη ερεύνα ) i went through "believe or not search " And my searches result was to go closer to orthodoxy ( the right way ) . I will not judge those who say anything against orthodoxy , or even against my belief . I am not GOD to judge them . What i believe is this . Because i want now to believe even more than ever before .
valmorgan you mean Magna Grecia . Mate that is your choise . Do whatever you want .
valmorgan Horrible advice from my fellow Orthodox to someone seeking to convert. I advise you seek out a local Orthodox Parish Priest some where in your city. Search specifically for an Antiochian Church, OCA Church, or Greek usually they are American born priests and wont have a language barrier. Message me if you have any questions, and god bless you on your journey back home to Orthodoxy!
Orthodox Christian and you are supposed to be christian . Jesus said that " believe or not , search " If he searches he will find the truth , like i did. And it was my search , within me mostly , that brought me closer to God . I tell you that nowdays all churches ARE corrupted .Only few keep the path . All those so called christians , name them orthodox , catholic , protestants . They turned out to betray Lord and his teaching . You want to really do something ? Be a good man , be a good christian . Going to a catholic or orthodox church everyday will not make you a good christian . Your acts towards others will. Love is the path of god , not a church .
Dennis Rivers the church , is nothing more than you and me and anyone else coming together to pray God . Honor him and his wish with just prayers like the Pharisees . This what He wants ? Staying in a temple for a couple of hours ? Or acts of love anytime anywhere . We are loosing the path .
Giannis Kavala St James says in the Gospel that faith is dead without good works that I agree. However our Lord and Savior said " The Gates of Hades will not prevail against the church he made." So where is the Church that Christ established? It is simply the Orthodox Church which is the fulfillment of Orthodox Judaism. Your man made philosophy is no more then New Age Beliefs. Our God is a God of order not of Chaos. He is very specific on how we should worship him. Why not go to church and worship god as he has commanded, he is present in church during the divine liturgy. I used to have the same philosophy as you it leads to chaos. You should get in contact with a local parish Priest near you and talk to him about your doubts.
3. The fact that they felt they had to report against the abuses of iconography is one of the strongest kinds of historical evidence that use of imagery in Christian worship had by that time become very widespread, implying that their anti-imagery attitude was in the minority. Therefore the Church as a whole in those days loved icons.
Metropolitan Philip may his memory be eternal
Fr. Gillquist, also. ✝️
Also, I would recommend visiting an Orthodox parish; Orthodoxy is a thing that can't really be grasped by means of books and reading; it has to be experienced in community in order to be understood.
What part of the country (I assume you're in the US?) are you in? I know Orthodox Christians in practically every major city that can recommend a good church to you.
This has helped me with understanding Orthodoxy so much more. I'm more Orthodox than I think. I am seeking after being Catholic and Evangelical. Pray for me!! Thank you Lord Jesus Son of God!!
I haven't been a Catholic for ten years. I'm a canonical Orthodox.
How did you get Stephen Baldwin to narrate?
I wish this had 7 Billion views.
For the record, I've been venerating icons for years, and never have I ever even considered worshiping the image itself as God/a god. Have you ever asked an Orthodox if he thought he was worshiping wood and paint? I've never met one. I think you're culturally uncomfortable with religious art and are reaching for a theological justification for your reaction.
Absolutely uplifting! Glory to God.
The truth.
Thank you so much.Chrit is risen.
The truth is that religion is a deception.
God created man, man created religion.
Jesus said I Am the way, not religion is the way.
Jesus said Follow Me, not follow men and then pick some brand of religion that tickles your fancy and follow it too.
Only JESUS is the truth!! He is the truth, the way, the life, the light and the narrow gate through which we must enter.
Turn away from religion now! Come out of her and partake not of her sins and receive not of her plagues!!
Pick up your cross and follow Jesus!!!
I think that Mormonism and Protestantism are no way comparable. I have a lot of respect for much of traditional Lutheranism, but the LDS "church" is a johnny-come-lately impostor with no foundational doctrinal continuity to Christianity, and it was founded by an American occultist and Freemason, (by his own admission!)
Want to be popular with a protestant? Remind them the Luther was a Mystery religion initiate and later complained that the protestants were not building charities or orphanages like the Catholics. He knew his choice to put all salvation on an interior opinion of faith alone was a political choice, not a sincere one.
Thank you for sharing this documentary.
May God have mercy on me a sinner, and on all his children. +
8:32 the music is so beautiful. They are sining "Koudus" ie "Holy" from the Trisagion hymn. Anyone know what particular recording that is from? So powerful
Yes I know how old this is . I am in the middle of becoming Orthodox and I wish I had found it decades ago. It was meant for me and it took me this long I might have 20 good years left and maybe another couple on a credit card! :-)
To my Eastern brothers and sisters in Christ. Russian, Romanian, Greece. Peace be upon you all. I understand that the schism of 1054 was a devastating event for us. Because of our theological differences, the perspective point of view on eternal salvation and eternal damnation, doctrine issues too. But rest assured, when we all die. Christ the righteous judge will decide whether we will enter Heaven or not. We cannot let our differences separate us and make us each other enemies. Instead we should trust in God, Jesus Christ, the reliance of the Saints, pray for each other. My hope is that we'll be bound for Heaven. We'll all be united in Heaven. This i swear. Amen.
Have mercy on him, pray for him, be slow to judge and speak with kindness and love. I believe we need to counsel the doubtful and instruct the ignorant while avoiding the temptation to judge them. Besides, by counseling, instructing and praying for these folks, we grow stronger in our own faith. Peace of the Lord be with you.
Regardless of what Christian denomination you follow. Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant. Lutheran, Baptist, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Congregational, Anglican/Episcopalian and so on. The Jehovah's Witness aren't Christian. Nor are the Mormons. Me, I grew up in a Irish Catholic family. And attending Sunday mass plays a vital role in my life.
Only one of those is Christianity bro
Thank you very much it was wonderful.
Blessed be the thrice blessed Philip
Blessed be the thrice blessed Ignatius Patriarchs of Antioch.
We are so blessed my daughter my granddaughter, who was three, and I converted to Orthodoxy December 16th 2016 what a blessed day that was.
Metropolitan Philip said girls could serve behind the altar, my granddaughter has served St George of Troy because Father Joseph allows her, since she was seven years old she is now fourteen.
May the Lord continue to bless Father Joseph.
May the Lord continue to bless Richard and Walid of St George of Troy who seem to give to the Lord continuously.
Today is Orthodox Sunday 2018 blessed be Irene and Theodora may their blessings continue on the Orthodox.
You seem pretty committed to your conclusions; I don't know what I can say to help you consider any other perspective. May God bless you in your walk with Him.
You have raised a good point and argued it intelligently and non-offensively. I want to thank you for that. If you would be so kind, give me some time to trace the origins of the commandment, the interpretations of it, translations of it, and how icons became such a part of our faith. I'll get back to you once I do. Would you have any other reading (than what's listed below) or things you think I should examine to further my education?
Excerpt from “Christians and Images: Early Christian Attitudes Toward Images” by Steven Bigham
Short excerpt from the chapter “The Jewish Attitudes Toward Images”
“...What then is the simple, clear and elegant interpretation that explains the changing attitudes and practices of ancient Judaism concerning images? It is based on a reading of the Second Commandment that clearly distinguishes between an idolatrous art, obviously forbidden, and a non-idolatrous art, either symbolic, decorative or pedagogical. This latter kind of art is allowed in a context where the danger of idolatry is minimal or nonexistent.
This interpretation is not artificially imposed on the biblical text from the outside, but rather derives directly from the text itself. By reading Dt 5:8-9 together as the expression of one idea, we arrive at a prohibition of idolatrous art alone. By reading the two verses separately as two commandments, we eliminate the category of non-idolatrous art. If we reread all the historical, archeological and literary evidence in the light of these two categories of art, we will see that the theory of Jewish hostility toward all figurative art is untenable
2.3 The Application of the Hypothesis.
Let us begin with a few Old Testament events that demonstrate the distinction described above. They show how it operated in a period when, according to the theory that claims an absolute rejection of images in Israel, we ought to find very stringent practices. We can, first of all, eliminate those events that obviously associate images and idolatry: for example,
1) the golden calf that the people erected when Moses was late in coming down from the mountain (Ex. 32);
2) the statue of Nebuchadnezzar (Dn 3-4);
3) the statue of Zeus that Antiochus Epiphanes set up in the Temple (1 M 1:41-64);
4) the statue of himself that Caligula wanted to put in the Temple.
Other examples of idolatry could be cited, but let us study rather the examples which undermine the credibility of the rigorist interpretation of the Second Commandment and which confirm the thesis of at least two kinds of images.
• The cherubim on the ark of the testimony: Ex 25:122.
We have here images of angelic beings, even made of gold like the calf in Ex. 23, which are not in the least likely to become idols or to take God's place, because, as His throne, He sits between them. Placed so close to God Himself and so intimately linked with the worship of the true God, the cherubim could never be separated from that worship and become themselves the object of misdirected, idolatrous worship. The cherubim on the Ark of the Testimony are a real problem for the advocates of rigorism, because God Himself ordered Moses to have them made. The untenable contradiction in the divine commands disappears if we assume a relative interpretation of the Second Commandment that allows for non-idolatrous, liturgical images.
• The embroidered cherubim in the tabernacle: Ex 26:1, 31.
God also ordered that cherubim be embroidered on ten curtains of fine linen for use in the tabernacle. It seems that there were at least ten cherubim, one for each curtain, but the text does not specify the exact number of cherubim. In addition, God ordered that a veil be placed between the Holy and the Holy of Holies of the tabernacle. This veil was also decorated with cherubim, though the text again does not state their size or number. What we said above for the sculpted cherubim on the Ark of the Testimony is equally valid for these images.
The praise of Bezalel: Ex 31:1-11.
After having ordered Moses to prepare the tabernacle and its furnishings, God designated Bezalel, son of Uri, to be the master workman, to design and to execute all the art work necessary for the tabernacle. Oholiab, son of Ahisamack, was also named along with all the other men "that they may make all that I have commanded you. . ." Among other things, these workers made the mercy seat whose two ends were decorated with the winged cherubim. The praise which God gives to Bezalel and the other artists, seeing that their task was to sculpt golden figurative images, would be contradictory and out of place in the context of an absolute prohibition against the making of all images. God's words go beyond simple praise; their tone comes close to that of a special consecration, as in the case of a prophet:
‘I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with ability and intelligence, with knowledge and all craftsmanship, to devise artistic designs, to work in gold, silver and bronze... and I have given to all able men ability that they may make all that I have commanded you.’
We have clearly expressed in this passage, the distinction between the two kinds of images: when an artist, an image maker, sculpts non- idolatrous, liturgical images for the glory of God, he is praised and blessed by God. The natural corollary follows, however: if an artist makes idols, he will be condemned.
The bronze serpent: Nm 21:4-9.
God again orders that a "graven image" be made, an image of something "that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth," a bronze serpent. The purpose of making the serpent was to serve as an antidote to the poisonous snakes God sent to punish the people who spoke against Him and Moses. By looking at the bronze snake, those who were bitten would not die. This story shows how a sculpted image can be used in a non-idolatrous way but according to the rigorist interpretation of the Second Commandment, this image should not have been permitted. Centuries later, however, when this image-was it really the snake Moses made, or a reproduction?-became an object of idolatrous worship, King Hezekiah destroyed it and other objects of idolatrous worship with which Israel had contaminated itself (see 2 K 18:1-4). This episode shows how an object, an image, normally not considered to be an idol, can become one. Idolatry is determined by a person's intention and attitude toward an image, and not by the image itself. Who would go so far as to say that museums that contain paintings or statues of mythical deities are pagan temples? Who would even use the word idol to talk about these images?...Since the Israelites offered idolatrous worship to the serpent, a thing that previously was not an idol, became one. It is interesting to note that Hezekiah did not seem at all concerned that the image of the serpent, at least the one made by Moses, existed by divine command. For Hezekiah, whatever the origin, human or divine, of an image that has become an idol, it deserves to be destroyed.
Solomon's temple: 1 K 6:23-35 & 7:15-37.
Solomon's Temple was a veritable art gallery; it is also a nightmare for the advocates of the rigorist interpretation. For the Temple's Holy of Holies, Solomon had two enormous cherubim sculpted out of wood and covered in gold. The king also had cherubim, palm trees and open flowers sculpted on all the walls of the Temple, and the door to the Holy of Holies was covered with these same images. He also put carved pomegranates on the capitals of columns. The molten sea sat on 12 bulls, and on the frames of the panels that formed the 10 stands, he put lions, bulls and cherubim.
We can use the same argument here as in the case of the cherubim in the desert tabernacle: where there is no risk of turning worship of God toward sculpted images, this figurative art can have a place in worship. On the basis of this principle, Solomon felt quite free to put such images in the Temple, and by so doing, he introduced new types of non-idolatrous images, new in comparison with the tabernacle in the desert. It is important to note that beside all the reproaches that subsequent biblical authors made against Solomon, the wise king was never criticized for having broken the Second Commandment [in the making of non-idolatrous images in the Temple.] Flavius Josephus, however, did reproach Solomon for having introduced bulls and lions into the Temple, for him a violation of the commandment. We will examine this reproach later on and see that it is absolutely unique in all of Jewish literature.
• Solomon's Throne: 1 K 10:18-20.
Solomon had lions carved on his throne, a place obviously less holy than the Temple, but nonetheless of great importance. It was the royal seat of the Lord's anointed:
‘The king also made a great ivory throne [which] had six steps, and at the back of the throne was a calf's head and on each side of the seat were arm rests and two lions standing beside the arm rests, while twelve lions stood there one on each end of a step on the six steps. The like of it was never made in any kingdom.’
The biblical author not only did not criticize these "graven images," but he was manifestly impressed by them and quite proud of the king's glory as revealed in his throne.
• Ezekiel's vision: Ez 41:15-21.
After 25 years of captivity, the Prophet Ezekiel had a vision in which he saw the Temple restored. He described the various furnishings of the Temple whose interior, the Holy, was decorated with cherubim and palm trees: "Every cherub had two faces: the face of a man toward the palm tree on the one side, and the face of a young lion toward the palm tree on the other side."
It [is] not impossible that the cherubim on the Ark of the testimony, and in Solomon's Temple, also had human faces, but the biblical text does not make this clear. Ezekiel, on the other hand, clearly introduces, at least in theory and assuming these images did not already exist, a new element into the category of permitted images: the human face. The lions and palm trees have already been noticed. The prophet did not speak of an Ark decorated with cherubim or of sculpted cherubim in the Holy of Holies, following Solomon's example. Nonetheless, since Solomon had giant cherubim sculpted for the real Temple, it is not impossible that Ezekiel would have put them in the future Temple, but in describing the Holy of Holies, Ezekiel spoke only about its measurements, nothing about its furnishings. Concerning the prophet's attitude toward images, we can deduce nothing from his silence regarding the cherubim in the Holy of Holies, the molten sea and the bronze basins held up by bulls and lions. This omission is less significant since he placed cherubim with human and lion faces in the restored Temple.
• The real, but mitigated, praise of the engraver: Ec 38:27.
‘So it is with every workman and craftsman, toiling day and night; those who engrave seals, always trying to think of new designs: they set their heart on producing a good likeness, and stay up perfecting the work.’
In this passage, the author praises Jewish engravers and other gifted and able craftsmen. He uses the same tone for farmers, blacksmiths and potters (38:24 - 39:1-11) that are necessary for every city. The skill and usefulness of these workers do not compare, however, with the wisdom of the scribe who in his leisure time "devotes his soul to reflecting on the Law of the Most High." The author's evaluation of these crafts in relation to the scribe-they are obviously on a lower level-is not what is important here. Our attention is drawn rather to the fact that a biblical author had no trouble praising workmen who made non-idolatrous images, even if they were only seals. The text itself does not mention what kinds of images were carved on the seals, but it says that there were always "new designs." Nothing prevents us from supposing that the engravers carved plants, animals and human beings on their seals. The oldest existing Jewish seal dates from 922 to 746 B. C. depending on the factors chosen for its dating47. A lion is carved on the seal. It is less surprising to allow the possibility of carved animals and humans on Jewish seals when we take into account that at a later period, that of the rabbis, even pagan gods, under certain conditions, could be carved on seals.48
• The condemnation of artistes: Ws 13-15.
The campaign against idolatry and artists who use their talent to produce idols is sometimes cited as proof of the Old Testament's antipathy against all images and artists. In this vein, Cohen has written the following:
‘The author of the Wisdom of Solomon, who lived during the first century before the C. E., frowned upon the fruitless labor of the painter for another reason [other than idolatry]. According to him, the art of painting "leadeth fools into lust," an evident allusion to Pygmalion, King of Cyprus, who fell in love with a statue of Venus.’49
It is quite true that the author makes some very severe statements against various kinds of artists:
‘No invention of perverted human skill has led us astray, no painter's sterile labour, no figure daubed with as sorted colours, the sight of which sets fools yearning and reverencing the lifeless form of some unbreathing image.’ (Ws15:4-5)
It is obvious, however, that the author's fury is directed against idols and artists who make them. Nothing is said about non-idolatrous images, nor the artists who make them.
In describing the origin of idol worship, the author of Wisdom describes the progressive transformation of images into idols, images which at the beginning were not idols. For example, he notes the father crying about his prematurely dead son. The father had a portrait made to which eventually the family gave disproportionate veneration (W14:5) Another example is the worship of kings thought to be gods. At first, their images were simply honored, but that veneration progressively turned into idolatry (Ws 14:16-20). In both cases, the real problem seems to have been not the existence of images of human beings, whether portraits or statues, but rather the transformation of honor and veneration into idolatrous worship. This is the same transformation, in a pagan context, that we saw in the biblical story of the bronze serpent which became the object of idolatrous worship. It is possible that the author of Wisdom thought that this transformation was inevitable due to the weakness of foolish men carried away by their passions and the seductive power of images. It is also possible, however, for "intelligent men," that is those who know and worship the true God, not to fall into the same trap as the pagans.
Most of the Old Testament passages noted in this section have always been, and still are, part of the standard answers of those who defend Christian images and their veneration against all kinds of iconoclasm based on the Second Commandment. In that sense, we have not brought forward new material. St. John of Damascus, On the Divine Images50 in the eighth century, as well as modern authors51, have noted them, but it is nonetheless important to bring together the biblical evidence which supports the thesis presented in this study.”
How could Peter have been Bishop of Rome when he never lived there?
Your simply wrong. Peter lived, died, and was buried in Rome.
Exelente video, could there be subtitles in Spanish?
Do you accept the teaching of the Holy Apostle Paul?
"If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing."
How dare you pass judgment on those believers in Christ who are outside of the Visible Church? Do you really think that by categorically condemning their relationship to Christ as demonic that you will save even one single soul?
The Papacy has ultimately failed to provide unity to Christendom. Papacy is not the solution.
The true church does not belong to Christendom. The true church is the sum of believers, the body of Christ.
@Mary Yeo: Eusebius had some dogmatic errors. His doctrine about the Holy Trinity is influenced by Origen, which has been anathemized. Also his doctrine on icons was influenced by the same Origen.
May the Lord bring wisdom and understanding to every one of his sons and daughters to sort out the reasons and foundations of our lack of unity. Greetings from Brazil.
may the lord bless their their families and communites and everyone that prays for them and with them, I join their prayer and entrust myself to their intercession
forever
Metropolitan Phillip may his memory be eternal.
Everyday I praise the Lord that my family found Orthodoxy, Decembers enjoy 2006 we were chrismated.
Lord Jesus Christ Son of God have mercy on us.
It might be too much of a culture shock for me though haha
Although, I'm glad that the Orthodox church is biblical in its essential doctrine.
Amen, the most inspiring thing about orthodoxy is the fact that from what i have studied this far into it, they do not condemn people. The orthodox Church is one of great tradition, and unwavering faith. I am not sure how anyone who watched this video could disagree with the facts presented. In the end orthodoxy is complex, and converts can feel out of place, but as a catechumen i have seen that the orthodox Church is a very welcoming community of believers.Through Love we spread the Faith.
I do believe in God. And with so many different variants of the faith it makes me overwhelmed as to which it the true church. But then again I am reminded as told in the Testament Jesus said that he would make his new church in us. That the temple of God was within the hearts of men. This Orthodoxy seems interesting. I will tend one and see for myself what its really like.
there are 50 million orthodox christians in east africa ethiopia
wow, that is 50 million people who do not know Jesus and who are on the broad path to destruction.
@ServantMichael I know Fr. Braun, and to my darkened nous, he is a bright light.
Fr. John Braun is my family’s and my Godfather. God grant him many years! ❤️🙏☦️
What are the chants featured in this documentary
there are over 30,000 different Christian sects (including the many sects of Protestantism... some of which don't even believe in Christ. In my experience, having spoken at many different churches, there are baptists who don't even believe the same as other baptists. Too many inconsistencies within Protestantism... but that doesn't mean there aren't pious Christians outside of Orthodoxy or Catholicism.
In regards to Eusebius, et al.
1. We don't know if they were protesting icons or just 3D statuary (I was raised a Mexican Catholic, and in Mexico I have seen how 3D can lend itself to idolatry)
2. We know that they were protesting something, but we don't know that the whole Church agreed with them. You can find a Church Father to support practically any theological position if you look hard enough.
The other one is the assistant (Fr Reagan) at St Barnabas in Southern California.
Calling me a liar is a pretty serious accusation. Are you sure you want to do that?
That anathema above comes from a "council" which is considered heretical by the Orthodox. It's not our council at all.
Looking at the anathemas from the other councils which the Orthodox consider legitimate, the principle I have laid out above still holds true. Anathemas are statements about the danger of adopting heresy, which causes one to separate himself from the Body of Christ, the Church.
"And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshipped, and he said to him, ‘What do you command your servant, my lord (NOT Lord)?'" (Joshua 5,14) => Joshua stood before an angel.
/watch?v=0RTUHeDFu1A
If bowing before e.g. a King is not a worship, then bowing before a Saint is not either.
If kissing e.g. a beloved person's photograph is not a worship, then kissing a Saint's icon is not either.
Because it's not fiction. It's actually how the Orthodox understand themselves. The Orthodox do not approach any of their doctrine or scripture at face value alone. That's a Protestant approach.
It seems many in this thread are forgetting the basics. Quite simply put: LOVE. Love of God, neighbor, self; speak with kind words (not anger) and pray that the Lord may quiet and humble our passions. We are warned several times in scriptures in several ways about judging others. Simply put, no matter what denomination, religion or faith is right or wrong; best or worst; we should pray for those who are fallen that they may be redeemed before the final judgement. All is in God's hands.
I am sure that somewhere in both C and O theology there is a reluctant concession that you're right.....shhhh!
Bowing before icons in the Orthodoxy, is considered as an act of honor, not worship! In Ex. 20,4-5 God forbids the worship bowing. So as John (who was fully aware of the 10 commandments) bowed 2 times before an angel (Ap. 19,10 & 22,8-9) he obviously didn't worship the angel and the angel didn't rejected his bowing as heretic, but only due to humility reasons. Yet in the case of Joshua 5,13-15 we see that the angel accepts(!) Joshua's bowing. See also Ap.3,9 and the promise of Jesus to a human!
the Pope AND the Patriarchs are all one in the faith of Jesus and come down from the early times...we have to all get back together for the Love of Jesus!!!!!As a Catholic I am am privileged to receive communion on the altar and i can feel Jesus presence so strong.. I love my Orthodox brothers as well and.we all need to stop this separation!!
Well, are they disagreeing on essential doctrine? or secondary issues? Cos if they disagree on essential doctrine then its a problem.
If you're trying to return to living the NT church of Acts you should join Orthodoxy. Western church-"Catholicism" has made many doctrinal innovations after its separation from the Church in 1054 (purgatory, immaculate conception of Mary, papal supremacy and infallibility etc)
Why can't it be both? Christ continues incarnating himself ever time a new Christian is baptized into the community of the Body, the Church. Christ makes each one of us a temple, a little Christ in microcosm. That's the meaning of the word, "Christian," actually!
In the Roman Catholic Church, there’s been a severe shortage of Catholic priest and perhaps that’s the reason why many Roman Catholics are converting. But despite of what’s going on, never will I leave the Roman Catholic Church. Even if I do, I hope my parents and family won’t be upset with me.
Such vocations are actually flourishing in the real Catholic Church, but in the counterfeit Vatican II sect currently lead by heretic and apostate Antipope Francis, they are dieing out. In my small town parish church of 500+ people, made up of mostly young families and people below the age of 50, we have 4 priests and 6 Dominican nuns and 3 private Catholic schools. Anyway, the Novus Ordo sect is not Catholic, it's a new a religion created by Zionist Jews and Freemasons that has a new mass, new catechism, new rites of ordination, etc, something Our Lady warned would happened in her various apparitions . The traditional Catholic faith is the only Catholic faith and the Vatican II sect is not Catholi , so it's important that you don't confuse the two.
As for Orthodoxy, you don't want to convert to that heretical false religion that is schismatic and polytheistic in doctrine. Check out this video, it exposes and debunks Eastern "Orrhodoxy", proving that it's a false religion and not true Christianity.
m.th-cam.com/video/d07mgLoOW8g/w-d-xo.html
@@lukebrasting5108 Amen
@@lukebrasting5108.... Who changed the Symbol of Faith ? By saying that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son? Jesus Christ revealed in John 15:26 that the Spirit proceeds from the Father. Roman Catholicism is heretical and based on deception.
8. In 754 the first “Seventh Ecumenical Council” met and condemned the icons. “If anyone ventures to represent in human figures, by means of material colours, by reason of the incarnation, the substance or person (ousia or hypostasis) of the Word, which cannot be depicted, and does not rather confess that even after the Incarnation he [i.e., the Word] cannot be depicted, let him be anathema!” (Ninth Statement.)
Anathemas are made to condemn doctrines, not the people who hold them. When the councils pronounce anathemas, they do so to underscore the seriousness of publicly teaching false doctrines which divide the Church-- if you promulgate false-teaching X, you are cutting *yourself* off from the Body of Christ. They are not made in order to spread hate.
6. The first "Seventh Ecumenical Council" (754) because it condemned icons. It is also known as the "Council of Hieria". It stated: If anyone ventures to represent in human figures, by means of material colours, by reason of the incarnation, the substance or person (ousia or hypostasis) of the Word, which cannot be depicted, and does not rather confess that even after the Incarnation he [i.e., the Word] cannot be depicted, let him be anathema!"
“…theologically unfounded?”
Don’t you accept the teaching of the one holy catholic and apostolic Church? “Let not the Symbol of Faith be set aside…but let it remain unchanged: and let every heresy be given over to anathema…” Canon I of the Second Ecumenical Synod
My immediate family is Catholic, Orthodox, evangelical...underfoot in my life. I read and pray a lot about this. We all need each other...each split took something vital and weakened the Body of our Lord on earth. The "real" church will return only when obey Him. However, what do I feel? I don't want to be a coward and have no opinion. I believe orthodoxy comes closest to Heaven in the service....it's impossible to participate an not experience this. The Roman Catholic has this plus...it stoops to the weakest, the most common, and the weaknesses in each of us. It's the church of the Roman forums, the street, the Latin speaking poor. We need each other. I ask, if the "right" church was denied your attendance by poverty or distance...if you didn't have the gas to go 40 miles to the True Church...would you stay away from church altogether?
@kollyvades Well, even if those allegations were true, you would do well to pray for them with the pure love of Jesus Christ and free yourself from the chains of judgment you have hung around your own neck.
I know Fr. John; he just retired from his service to St. Anthony's parish in San Diego.
4. Eusebius (c. 327) insisted that even the incarnate Christ cannot appear in an image. He wrote that o depict purely the human form of Christ before its transformation, on the other hand, is to break the commandment of God and to fall into pagan error." (David M. Gwynn, From Iconoclasm to Arianism: The Construction of Christian Tradition
in the Iconoclast Controversy [Greek, Roman, and Byzantine Studies 47 (2007) 225-251], p. 227.)
Eusebius is not recognized as a church father or saint, so his opinion doesn’t matter. What matters is the consensus of the majority of the Church Fathers, and in the 7th ecumenical council the Fathers commanded the use of icons by Christians.
St. John of Damascus wrote,
“In times past, God, without body and form, could in no way be represented. But now, since God has appeared in flesh and lived among men, I can depict that which is visible of God. I do not venerate the matter, but I venerate the Creator of matter, who became matter for me, who condescended to live in matter, and who, through matter, accomplished my salvation; and I do not cease to respect the matter through which my salvation is accomplished.”
I love you too. Do you know that typing ALL IN CAPS means you're yelling?
No. It's a simply matter of the "orthodox" doing exactly what is prohibited in the 2nd commandment -- making a likeness and bowing before it. Then they change the name of the sin and call it "venerating icons" thinking that that makes it less sinful.
The early church prohibited such things, see quotes from Elvira, Eusebius, and Epiphanius below.
Take your time and devote much prayer to you're desire to join the Holy Orthodox Church . Bear in mind the Church its self is holy , the people in it are not . I would also suggest you seek out an Antiochian Orthodox Church , or the Orthodox Church in America . Both serve English language Divine Liturgies , and are free of the ethnic politics found elsewhere .
OCA isn’t in communion with the Eastern Orthodox patriarchates
@@DysmasTheGoodThief proof?
I am tired of your ridiculous copy n paste comments. Why even come on here and comment? no one is asking or forcing you to be orthodox....are you just a keyboard fighter?? Here to 'stir things up?? Orthodoxy has not only stood the test of time but has proven itself over and over again. It's people like you that help us preserve our faith and also ensure people like you dont come along with silly ideas and destroy everything we stand for.....
12:13 I think that's the crux of the thing. "We go to church to have a spiritual experience." Much as I am fond of liberal Christianity, this is where is really misses the mark. Milquetoast and dumbed-down worship doesn't produce a "spiritual experience"
I find that comment both rude and theologically unfounded. How's the view up there from your ivory tower?
If you're looking for an Orthodox Christian to condemn you, you'll have to try elsewhere, if you can find one at all, that is. I do not condemn or judge you. God bless you, and pray for me, a sinner.
Hi. Im a traditional Roman Catholic. At one point I nearly converted to Greek Orthodoxy, but I ended up where I am now, after going through sedevacantism and reconciliation. I am curious to know your position on Roman Catholics and on the pope specifically. I once had an Orthodox friend who argued the Holy Father was a valid bishop who just has too much power.
The pope is retarded as a concept
I, too, have a foot in each.....the hard noses will just have to live with us.
The original patriarchs of Alexandria and Antioch separated from Rome and Constantinople at the Council of Chalcedon. The patriarch of Constantinople was created for political reason at Chalcedon, as well.
The separations happened at the Schism of 1054 a,d, Rome separated itself from The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic church at that time. The separation simply inspired Luther to separate from Rome in the 1500's and those separations simply continue today,
You comment is not totally true. There exists two Patriarchs in Alexandria and Antioch, one Eastern Orthodox and the other Oriental Orthodox. The Oriental Orthodox are not in communion with Rome or the Eastern Orthodox. The Patriarch was not created for political reasons. If anyone was political it was the pope in Rome.
The disagreements that the Eastern Orthodox have with the Coptics is far older and historically speaking there was never any kind of a official schism as between the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Churches.
Sort of. There were pro-imperial factions within both churches which accepted Chalcedon and remained loyal to the emperor. These were called "Melkite" in Antioch, melek = king in Arabic. These days they call themselves "Roum Osodoxi" meaning Roman Orthodox, as the Byzantines did not call themselves "Byzantines," but rather called themselves "Romans."
These groups elected new patriarchs for their respective sees which were in turn commemorated by the Church in Constantinople, so arguments for the "legitimacy" of the non-Chalcedonian vs Chalcedonian group in either country is really a matter of assumptions--is the teaching Chalcedon truth or heresy?
You really think that there was no worshiping of God going on as the Christians were burying their dead? No singing, no incense? You're correct in asserting that the Lord's Supper, the primary act of Christian worship, was *probably* not celebrated in the catacombs, but there are places in the catacombs decorated with 2nd Century Last Supper symbolism, complete with an altar table.
What is the Greek Orthodox plan of salvation?
James Rockford
Please view my site below if time permits and click on the link top left for 'salvation'
theOrthodoxFaith (dot) org
Feel free to ping me with any questions. Thanks.
+James Rockford thet is not GREEK, the orthodox church is one church, but rome lost the orthodoxy in 1054
Not about us but Jesus Christ.
ΝΟPE I DIDNT KNOW THAT...
hahaha am so sorry from deep in my heart i wasnt yelling!!!
im orthodox cthristan from eritrean
Who are you to pass judgment? Even if they are gay, what bearing does that have on their decision to embrace the True Faith or their own personal holiness? This is at best a red herring and at worst soul-destroying gossip.
Ugh. Hyper-Orthodox internet trolls will be my undoing.
In Orthodoxy, what is Hagia Sophia? What is Holly Wisdom? This teaching is unique to Orthodoxy, but, why do the Orthodox people talk so little about it?
Which Protestant sect are you a part of?
Nice video, but the history presented is simplistic and abridged. The Eastern Orthodox must be more open about the politics that shaped it, the Roman Catholic and Oriental Orthodox Churches. The Coptic Orthodox church is, and has remained, the Patriarch of Alexandria. God bless that the beliefs of the two Orthodoxies remain the same. Perhaps one day they will be in full communion.
The "rock" was never Peter
The corner rock in the foundation of the Christian Church is a certain statement of Peter, and not Peter himself!
The rock talked about upon which Lord Jesus was going to build His Church was not a material rock as in bricks and stones, but the SPIRITUAL TRUTH (a teaching) that Lord Jesus is the Son of the living God.
[Mathew 16:16] “And Simon Peter answer ed and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”.
Lord Jesus answers: upon this rock (this Truth) I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
[Mathew 16:18] “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
I'm Orthodox, but I'm not sure about the claim that St Paul succeeded St Peter as patriarch of Antioch.
It is not true that the authority of Apostles was restricted into a single town or area. Apostolic authority (that ended up with the last of the Apostles, John) had to do with the whole of Church as through this authority all local Bishops were ordained!
Recall what St. Paul wrote to the Corinthians: "and, in addition to these things, which are external: there is my daily earnestness and solicitude FOR ALL THE CHURCHES." [2Corinthians 11:28]
Joseph Conder If St. Paul succeeded St. Peter in Antioch, that is a new one on me. I dont think St. Paul knew that he was Bishop of Antioch. St. Ignatius of Antioch might differ
While I believe you may be correct, that direct criticism of yeoberry is neither necessary nor helpful. Let us bless and not curse. Rom 12
Amen.
You're oversimplifying things. Surely you've read about God's command to create the two angels on the Ark of the Covenant and to adorn the Temple with images of animals. You really think the first Christians who died for Christ and painted the catacombs were idolaters?
Hi there, I'm a reformed Protestant, and I hope you will know that we Protestants are united, but we are not united by our buildings or names, but by our common faith and doctrine concerning the Lord Jesus Christ. Please do not bundle us in with LDS, Mormons, or liberal churches, that would be a grave mistake. I personally am trying to return to living the NT church of Acts. I looked into Catholicism and found it to be apostate in dogma (esp. Marian, purgatory) God bless in your journey.
Heretic
I am sorry you find us so offensive. Please, I ask forgiveness on behalf of any Orthodox who has ever offended you or failed to offer you kindness.
I accidentally omitted an "Not": It should be: "If they try to re-interpret that later and say they are NOT anathematizing the actual people, they are lying."
Anathemas are directed at people, not just their ideas. Hence, "orthodox" history is replete with condemnation of people.
It means that as Christianity was spreading, some of the former pagans were bringing their pagan practices with them into the church, like the use of images. And so the bishops responded pastorally to that by clearly teaching that Christian worship does not use icons. Canon 36 of the Council of Elvira states, "Pictures are not to be placed in churches, so that they do not become objects of worship and adoration."
Later the "orthodox" church was overwhelmed by paganism and broke from tradition.
...And yet, yesterday, the Patriarch of Constantinople announced he plans to attend the inauguration of Pope Francis. Such a thing has not happened since anno domini 1054. I think we are fast on the road to reunification :D
Actually the chair of Peter is in Rome
So?
exactly so
he Orthodox Broke Away from the Tradition of the Early Church
5. Epiphanius, Bishop of Salamis, to John, Bishop of Jerusalem (c. 394) in Letter 51:
I went in to pray, and found there a curtain hanging on the doors of the said church, dyed and embroidered. It bore an image either of Christ or of one of the saints; . . .. Seeing this, and being loath that an image of a man should be hung up in Christ's church contrary to the teaching of the Scriptures, I tore it asunder . . . .
The moment I saw the name Stephen Baldwin, I fled screaming.
who is stephen baldwin?
Kopar'RUS Exactly!
nicksum29 but really, who is he?
Kopar'RUS He's the happy-clappy ultra right-wing brother of famous actor, Alec Baldwin. He has "acted" in several B-grade movies, and generally makes a nuisance of himself when it comes to politics because of his family's fame. His political ineptitude is exceeded only by his lack of acting ability.
nicksum29 Sorry, I'm not a really good english speaker, but what does "B-grade movie" mean?
LOL if you're at all familiar with the concreteness of Orthodox theology expressed in those church services, you'd see very quickly that this is merely a sound-byte taken from a man whose first language is not English. Orthodox worship could be characterized (though not exhaustively so) as "great gobs of theology set to music" as one Protestant observer friend once described.
Liberal Christianity? Hardly. Go check out an English liturgy at a parish with a healthy cradle-convert mix. I dare ya.
I have specific references below proving that the early church was strictly opposed to icons. Catacombs were not churches; they were burial places. The subject is the use of images in worship. The Council of Elvira, Eusebius, and Epiphanes document that the early church opposed icons. See below.
Well, if you want to know how the Orthodox contextualize at their own doctrinal statements, including the principle of the anathema, why don't you just ask them?
We don't worship or serve the icons. I can see why you think we do, though. 'tis a simple matter of misunderstanding, my friend.
What we KNOW is that the early church was strictly opposed to images in the church, in worship, of any kind. Canon 36 of the Council of Elvira states, "Pictures are not to be placed in churches, so that they do not become objects of worship and adoration." Eusebius wrote that to depict Christ is to break the commandment of God and to fall into pagan error. Epiphanius (Letter 51) wrote of how he tore down a decorated curtain, telling a fellow bishop that such images are contrary to our religion
No wonder Christianity is diminishing around the world. If the Church can't hold it together and remain ONE as Jesus prayed we would be, why would people in the secular world want to come be a part of such a splintered organization? I grew up in a protestant church, but I realized as an adult that it was not like what I read about in the Scriptures. The Orthodox Church seems to be the most like the Early Church, but who can find a Orthodox Church in many parts of the USA?
This was a somewhat interesting presentation of the Eastern Orthodox Church; however the Oriental Orthodox Church was not mentioned. Why? Perhaps it is because the Oriental Orthodox Church holds the same historical claim to being the true Church of Christ. In fact, the Oriental Orthodox Church has kept the Faith closer (without change) to the early Church. Further I would submit that Christianity (in all its guises) owes its existence today to Constantine the Great making Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire.
jstantoni I don't mean to sound harsh. I'm originally from South India and although born a protestant, i did spend some considerable time (~ 2 years) amongst the monophysites (one nature) before learning about Eastern Orthodoxy. The non-chalcedonians are not called 'orthodox' by any of the Fathers. This is an unfortunate novelty introduced by western pseudo-scholarship to call them 'orthodox and perpetuated by ecumenism. By your argument, why not extent the same principle of inclusion to the Oriental Nestorians as well? They are an even older heresy than monophysitsm. Furthermore, the monophysites are not 'one faith'; they have plurality of worship, theology, and practices amongst them. The only thing that unites them is their opposition to the sound Christology of Chalcedon.
The Chalcedonian definition that the Lord after the incarnation has TWO natures, both Divine and Human -- not a mere hybrid (union) of the two as the monophysites / miaphysites assert - is *critical* to the Eastern Orthodox understanding of Theosis; which is at the core of Eastern Orthodox Soteriology. That the Lord has TWO wills -- the wills being a function of the nature -- is likewise *critical* to the Eastern Orthodox understanding of Theosis. For in submitting His Human Will to the Will of the Triune God Luke 22_42, He has given us the prototype that we must also follow. These are not mere semantics as the ecumenists and modernists will have us believe, but they are the very mysteries relating to our salvation which the Eastern Orthodox Church alone has guarded. A different Christology implies a different Christ, a different salvation, a different faith.
+Godly Mathew When you speak about the monophysites, you cannot be referring to the Oriental Orthodox, for they condemn the heresy of monophysitism and, in truth, proclaim that the Logos of God, perfect in his divinity, came and became Man, taking on perfect humanity. Consubstantial with the Father before all ages, consubstantial with the Theotokos in his incarnation.
Do not be disrespectful in applying a heresy to a group that has always fought against that same heresy. The split between the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox is an unfortunate one that has gone on way too long. It began and was sustained by strong political motives and events and had little to do with actual theology.
We must pray for the union of the Body of Christ, the two families of the Orthodox Church, who have been broken for too long. Both have kept the faith delivered once and for all!
Peter Mansour
1. how many natures in Christ?
2. how many wills in Christ?
james67707
_whether there be tongues, they shall cease_ - 1 Corinthians 13_8
*The Heresy of the Pentecostals* | 44 mins
youtube (*dot*) com/watch?v=o4GWNHXsUrE
james67707
you said:
QUOTE> _"your wrong they never ceased.."_
those are not my words - they are the words of the Holy Apostle Paul:
_whether there be tongues, _*_they shall cease_* - 1 Corinthians 13_8
you said:
QUOTE> _"i never hear of any people getting healed.."_
The Orthodox Church is *the hospital for sinners*. It is the very place of *_true_** healing*.