This episode is so great. I really appreciate the open minded approach and the obvious desire of everyone on the show to figure out what the best way to understand the material is. I really appreciate all of you for being a good example to others for how reasonable people should talk with each other and how we should approach issues that are ambiguous enough to allow for disagreement among reasonable men. I grew up being taught the mainstream idea of people going to heaven or hell at death. Later I studied the issue for myself and came to a view very like Sam's, basically that the wicked will be destroyed after the judgement but I don't have a clear idea of what all happens during the interim. Based on some of the texts that were discussed in this episode I supposed that there may be a wide variety of experiences in sheol and that the experience could vary from time to time depending on the circumstances, that sometimes people might be conscious and other times not. Since then I have thought about it a little and while I still don't really know what happens I do have a tentative theory about why the Bible is less than clear about what goes on during that time. The passage in 1 Peter 3:18 talks about Jesus preaching to imprisoned spirits who had died in the flood. I find this hard to reconcile with the idea that everybody is just unconscious from death until the resurrection. And, it does seem to imply that these people who apparently died in their sins might have been given a second chance to repent during the intermediate state, but we are not given any details about how that might work or who else if anyone will be given a second chance to repent. It seems to me that the main thrust of scripture is the call for people to repent now and to be refined into the people God wants us to be now. I could be mistaken, but it seems to me that creating this world for us to inhabit during this time was done primarily to give us that opportunity. If that is true then it also seems to me that giving us all the details about how the second chance would be offered and what category of people would be offered a second chance could compromise the primary purpose of this creation. Leaving the details ambiguous but giving a bit of information for those who care enough to really study seems like a reasonable plan. I think God likes for people to seek Him and the ones who do can benefit both from the inherent benefits of the knowledge they can gather and from the extrinsic rewards God may reward them with later for seeking Him.
@JohnLLJ Sam is taking the word sleep to its logical conclusion. Sleep is different from for the living and sleep is different for the dead. Just like among the living some of the dead will experience a hell like/night mare like sleep. Just like among the living some will experience a bliss like/ paradise like sleep. This is the position of Sankt Ephraim, Afrahat and of the Quran.
@@economician I am not convinced anyone is immortal or that my dead wife is aware of anything. Maybe I'll strike up a conversation with her ashes.... Sleep is just a euphemism for dead.
@JohnLLJ But one thing does not have to exclude the other. Just because the dead experience sleep that does not mean that they have access to this realm. Even though the dead are a sleep and if riighteous experience a blissful sleep they are still cut off from this world (until Judgement day): ”A man came from the other end of the city, saying, "O my people, follow the messengers. Follow those who do not ask you for any wage, and are guided. Why should I not worship the One who initiated me, and to Him is your ultimate return? Shall I set up beside Him gods? If the Most Gracious willed any harm for me, their intercession cannot help me one bit, nor can they rescue me."In that case, I would be totally astray. "I have believed in your Lord; please listen to me."(At the time of his death) he was told, "Enter Paradise." He said, "Oh, I WISH MY PEOPLE KNEW.” ( Quran36:20-26)
@@economician I don't believe there is anything that can convince me otherwise that the state of the dead is absent of consciousness in the ether. The plain simple reading of scripture doesn't teach a resurrection from life to eternal life.
@JohnLLJ Consciousness outside our space time realm does not have to manifest itself in the same way as our biochemical consciousness manifests itself in this world. But you are correct in the sense that the dead are cut off from this world and that our prayers and worship should be dedicated to God alone.
This episode is so great. I really appreciate the open minded approach and the obvious desire of everyone on the show to figure out what the best way to understand the material is. I really appreciate all of you for being a good example to others for how reasonable people should talk with each other and how we should approach issues that are ambiguous enough to allow for disagreement among reasonable men.
I grew up being taught the mainstream idea of people going to heaven or hell at death. Later I studied the issue for myself and came to a view very like Sam's, basically that the wicked will be destroyed after the judgement but I don't have a clear idea of what all happens during the interim. Based on some of the texts that were discussed in this episode I supposed that there may be a wide variety of experiences in sheol and that the experience could vary from time to time depending on the circumstances, that sometimes people might be conscious and other times not.
Since then I have thought about it a little and while I still don't really know what happens I do have a tentative theory about why the Bible is less than clear about what goes on during that time. The passage in 1 Peter 3:18 talks about Jesus preaching to imprisoned spirits who had died in the flood. I find this hard to reconcile with the idea that everybody is just unconscious from death until the resurrection. And, it does seem to imply that these people who apparently died in their sins might have been given a second chance to repent during the intermediate state, but we are not given any details about how that might work or who else if anyone will be given a second chance to repent.
It seems to me that the main thrust of scripture is the call for people to repent now and to be refined into the people God wants us to be now. I could be mistaken, but it seems to me that creating this world for us to inhabit during this time was done primarily to give us that opportunity. If that is true then it also seems to me that giving us all the details about how the second chance would be offered and what category of people would be offered a second chance could compromise the primary purpose of this creation. Leaving the details ambiguous but giving a bit of information for those who care enough to really study seems like a reasonable plan. I think God likes for people to seek Him and the ones who do can benefit both from the inherent benefits of the knowledge they can gather and from the extrinsic rewards God may reward them with later for seeking Him.
According to Sam, people don't die until God allows it. Dead has no definition now.
@JohnLLJ
Sam is taking the word sleep to its logical conclusion. Sleep is different from for the living and sleep is different for the dead. Just like among the living some of the dead will experience a hell like/night mare like sleep. Just like among the living some will experience a bliss like/ paradise like sleep.
This is the position of Sankt Ephraim, Afrahat and of the Quran.
@@economician I am not convinced anyone is immortal or that my dead wife is aware of anything. Maybe I'll strike up a conversation with her ashes....
Sleep is just a euphemism for dead.
@JohnLLJ
But one thing does not have to exclude the other. Just because the dead experience sleep that does not mean that they have access to this realm. Even though the dead are a sleep and if riighteous experience a blissful sleep they are still cut off from this world (until Judgement day):
”A man came from the other end of the city, saying, "O my people, follow the messengers. Follow those who do not ask you for any wage, and are guided. Why should I not worship the One who initiated me, and to Him is your ultimate return? Shall I set up beside Him gods? If the Most Gracious willed any harm for me, their intercession cannot help me one bit, nor can they rescue me."In that case, I would be totally astray. "I have believed in your Lord; please listen to me."(At the time of his death) he was told, "Enter Paradise." He said, "Oh, I WISH MY PEOPLE KNEW.” ( Quran36:20-26)
@@economician I don't believe there is anything that can convince me otherwise that the state of the dead is absent of consciousness in the ether. The plain simple reading of scripture doesn't teach a resurrection from life to eternal life.
@JohnLLJ
Consciousness outside our space time realm does not have to manifest itself in the same way as our biochemical consciousness manifests itself in this world.
But you are correct in the sense that the dead are cut off from this world and that our prayers and worship should be dedicated to God alone.