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Are Y connectors bad sounding?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ก.พ. 2018
- Subwoofers often require an extra output on the preamp or DAC that is unavailable and so we resort to splitting the output signal with a Y connector. Audiophile lore suggests this is a bad idea and Paul explains his thoughts on Y connectors as well as the best way to connect a subwoofer. Have a question you want to ask me? Go to www.psaudio.com...
Hi Paul!, please don’t stop making these. You are the Fred Rogers of hifi! You do a great service to us that think about and imagine sound. Thank You!
When looking at preout voltage is the a good safe range for Y able meaning enough to split.
Also do you think that most people don’t like to high level their subs because of crossover anxiety. Meaning I am going to lose response or introduce latency.
Back when I installed a moving coil cartridge in my turntable I was faced with determining what the input of the Conrad Johnson PV10 phono preamp should be. That preamp has a very high gain but was made with a 47k input resistance. The cartridge I was installing needed between 200 and 500 ohms.
I took a couple of good quality Y cables and inserted them between the preamp and the cable from the turntable. I then made up a couple of shielded phono plugs that I could solder resistors to, after some experimentation I found 400 ohms sounded best so I soldered a 402 ohm RN60 resistor to each of those phono plugs.
The output of that cartridge is about 300 microvolts, if those Y cables worked well enough for that they should work for anything. I ran that lashup for about 18 months without any problems.
I agree with Paul's opinion that a good quality Y connector should not have a large effect on the sound and that using the outputs of the power amp is a better way to go. The Y cable is 6 inches long and if the preamp to amp cable is 6 feet, never mind the 12 ft sub cable) the effect will be pretty small. What might be a problem is the load on the preamp is now half what it was and if it's a tube preamp that might be a problem. Also the cable capacitance might start to be felt in the high end.
When I installed a new moving coil cartridge in my system last year I read that peaple were loading them with anything from 100 to 500 ohms. To make it easy I used a y cable and homebrew terminating resistors so I could easily change resistors. This was quick and because of the low impedance the additional bit of wire had no discernible effect on the sound.
Just follow the DESIGNERS directions (the RELS are designed to perform their BEST that way). I upgraded the REL spec cables with a pair of Audioquest Gibraltar cables converted to REL spec and that was a very nice improvement (tightened up the bass considerably) !! Rel recommends solid core cables which all Audioquest cables are, that is why I chose them, the rest of my cable loom is Synergistic Research.
I was having a hard time understanding why my subwoofer sounded better connecting to the sub out on my audioengine desktop speakers than connected directly to the extra outputs on my dac. Just seemed to integrate better when connected to the speakers. Thanks Paul! I'll need to try this on my main listening system!
I had the same experience on both a5+ and hd6 vs Schiit joutenheim
Agreed!
Stereo RELs are wonderful.
The company replies very quickly to any emails. I have a set of Musical Fidelity amps bridged. You could blow an amp if connected to the subs incorrectly. Class D amps are also tricky. Email REL first!
Enjoy all of your music with a full range system :-)
Sir you have explained it so well as to how a subwoofer enhances the sound of the speakers and don't stand out like a sore thumb! I personally feel that once your set up is spot on all the speakers sound Astonishing and I have to keep checking if mu subwoofer is on or not! Lol
My concern wouldn’t be so much the adapter, but the effect of the parallel loads of the power amp and sub plus all that cable. Hopefully the preamp has a nice low output impedance. Ultimately though I agree, speaker level is the way to go..
That's not how it works. The RELs are powered subs, so you are connecting to the line level input of the built in amplifier. This is likely to have an input impedance in the tens of thousands of ohms. Still, you're better off using speaker level from the amplifier, because the output impedance of the amp will be ultra low.
Sorry I have to disagree that a sub connected to an amp's high output sounds better than via low level RCA / XLR from the preamp. One can argue that the former's benefit is gaining the sonic signature of the amp relayed to the sub via high output connection, however a) the power amp will have higher distortion than the native preamp signal and b) not all amplifiers output tight, articulate bass and, as such relay "sloppy" bass to the sub. In addition, I've owned many subs including Rel and JL Audio and IMO JL Audio is the most articulate and best for music and slightly better than Rel. YMMV.
Most amps has less than 1% distotion and will not be audible. Especially in the low frequencies, distortions are not very audible at all.
Bad bass will most likely be to bad room treatment, or failed to isolate the speakers from the floor.
Paul, I compared both high level and low level inputs, and for some reason, even after integrating the high level, the low level sounds way tighter on the bass. Have you experienced this? It should be that the high level is best, but man that tight bass is too good.
Using a y-adapter is not my first choice as it is a point where noise can enter because it is un shielded. You may want to wrap some electrical tape around it. It's best to hook up your equipment up directly with no interruptions.
Thank You for sharing your knowledge with us, I am learning about sub woofer from you.
Paul i know u r trying to recommend the use of high pass to achieve the coherence of the sahsa with the rel sub but in actual the low pass will sound much better if is hookup with a matching sub
I'm not sure I understood this correctly. Did he connect the speaker level outputs on the amp to the low level inputs on the sub? Is this why he blew fuses? ie, sending an amplified signal to an input that should receive receive an unamplified signal?
Pls clarify...Power output of the power amp to high level input of subwoofer. You mean speaker output of the power amp to high level input of subwoofer?
I have Focal solo 6be studio monitors, but they only have one (female) xlr input. I’d like to use them with my UA Apollo interface (6.35 trs output) and my Cambridge audio stream magic 6v2 (xlr male output). Obviously not at the same time, but as they are on stands behind my desk I don’t want to have to go behind and switch cables all the time. As all of the cables I’d be using are balanced, would it be ok to attack an xlr y splitter cable to the one input on the Focals and then run from each device without any grounding issues or noise and still obtain optimal sound quality? The stream magic would usually be on standby when using the Apollo and the Apollo would be switched off when using the stream magic. All cabling would be of a high quality lynx type and neutrik connectors. Thanks.
You really should replace that missing dust cap on that Infinity woofer.
I don't understand this. How would you connect to the amplifier on a sub without line-level inputs? If there are only the right/LFE inputs, how would this work?
Hi I have a pair of B&W 803 series 1 and a Velodyne 1812 . I run a Conrad Johnson mv60se and want to connect it directly to the sub. There are no speaker wire connections for inputs on the sub? I have the sub connected via the sub out on my preamp. current a 7.1 Adcom but looking at a 2 channel NAD.
Denon AVR-3801 AM/FM Stereo 735-Watt 7.1-Channel Home Audio Surround Receiver - sub woofer has a pre out right and left.
the 2 subs i want to hookup has only one right left in on each sub. how to i hook them both up without loosing any power from each.? i did hook with a splitter one wire/ cord to each but lost power or sound to each too. do i need multiple kinds of splitters for this? thanks for any info? or help...i had pics but don't see where to add them? hmm.. but any help would be great! Thanks..
If you connect the output of your amp to the input of your sub, won't there be a delay or phase issues?
What about a single subwoofer pre-out (Denon AVR-3806) to a Yamaha YST-SW160 which has 2 RCA style inputs? Y connect those babies or just connect one (maybe the negative?)
...I've heard its fine to connect just one, and that it doesn't even matter which one, and I've heard that you can get a stronger signal from splitting the signal with a Y connector... I don't know if I buy that, but maybe its good... feels weird not connecting both... ugh. So much headache just on the subwoofer, I have bigger fish to fry! ha
EDIT: I've been pouring over the manuals for both devices by the way. The Yamaha manual just gives an example of a receiver that has 2 sub pre-outs, instead of one like mine has. Maybe connecting to the speaker terminals have an advantage??
Hey Paul, when you say the output of your power amplifier, do you mean RCA outs - or speaker outs? And, why am I finding that more expensive integrated amps have LFE Single RCA sub output but less expensive have the traditional RCA outs. Based on what I've heard you say recently, you DON'T want to use LFE for 2-channel hifi stereo set-ups. I want to be able to adjust everything myself.
I bought a bunch of Esoteric Audio RCA Y- splitters back in 1992 because they were on sale. Way more neutral sounding than cheaper Mainland Chinese made ones.
Hello everyone... Im trying to use an Onkyo p304to connect my main speakers and a velodyne powered sub to the same pre amp which has 2pre outs but im having a problem with a drop in the output signal since the outputs are probably wired together inside the pre amp. I cant really run my mains through the sub by using only one set of pre outs because the sub will not let me drop the signal going to the main speakers below 100hz. So with that said by doing that im losing a lot of low end in the main speakers. Also im wanting to run the signal to the mains through an equalizer and then into the main amp so i can have better control over them. Can anyone help me figure out how to do this correctly and more efficiently please? Thank you everyone for your help.
Hi Paul , I Have question about connecting active sub woofer. Which is give a better sound using RCA input or speaker input?
Wouldn't the amp of the subwoofer impart its own characteristics on the sound?
So with powered speakers and woofer the y cable will matter even less?
Are line level to RCA convertors any good or do they mess with the signal?
Paul question if you use a Y connector on a single sub pre-amp it would only play in mono correct? I am new to all this so just curious thanks keep up the good work!
Yes, only in mono. However, don't make the mistake of using a Y connector on a single sub to input both left and right channels to try and get mono from stereo. Choose one channel only-left or right- and use that for the sub feed. Not ideal, but better than trying to sum both left and right together with a Y connector.
Or even better is to get a Stereo to Mono Summing box
Howdy.
I have trouble finding specs on HiFi.
Back in the days of tubes only it seems to me that these are some specs. Frequency span 40 Hz - 15 kHz +-3dB. And THD
I use a high impedance to low imp. buffer with unity gain
I see..... where does this 'gunkiness' come from and how do you know it's there at all if the dust cap is fitted...
Paul McGowan
Thanks Paul ... I get the nature of the problem now .. and wow .. yes those speakers are getting on a bit now ... so I wonder how heat, humidity and fatigue have affected their overall performance..
I am a person who not entirely goes with servo feedback systems... I believe in making an amp/ speaker combo work perfectly in the first place.... I always oppose adding things to correct things that should not be there in the fist place ..
Also I might add that this philosophy of mine applies to speaker design too... high order passive XO's are not so good an lots of tuned LCR networks are to be avoided .. it's far better to get the speaker drive unit perfect and be able to use it with lower order XO networks ... the ideal speaker would have maximally flat spl respond.. 0 phase response and a very smooth impedance curve .. group delay should be as minimal as possible too. If you have the facility to do it .. a waterfall decay plot would be most revealing too...
I run a pair of Aerial Acoustics 10Ts. Sub not needed. These are good down to 21 Hz by themselves. They shake parts of my anatomy I shouldn't talk about.
Hi Paul,
I currently have 2 BIC F12's that running off 2 LFE outs from the receiver.
My main fronts are the Pioneer SP‑FS52's by Andrew Jones. Great budget towers that in my room generate enough bass
But the F12's Shake the foundation when I am in the mood for such. I was wondering if you think there would be any benefit from
wiring the F12 subs up on the speaker level inputs instead of the LFEs.
Thanks
Answered my own question, with my Rig it is a definitive drop in low frequency response. Back to dual LFE setup.
whats ur opinion on WOOFER RCF 9006 AS
It's nice to see a couple of videos in a row where the answer is pretty simple: no, not a problem if it's reasonable good quality. Yesterday: solar powered HiFi, nice idea but sorry, no.
What about using a y-connector from a pre-amp to powered subs? My receiver has two sub pre-outs and I'm wanting to connect 4 subs using two y-connectors. Is this ok since it's not a powered signal?
Round Earth Shill
Yes
I have an Adcom GFA 555 amp. It doesn't have an output for a subwoofer. What can I do? It only has two RCA inputs and then the two connections for left and right speakers...Thanks...
If your sub has line level inputs then: sub line level input -> speaker cables -> amp speaker output
This is wrong. Learn what "line level" means before giving advice.
The dust cap is missing because Paul wanted to show how and where the accelerometer is fitted to one of the LF drivers. It should be replaced by now !!
Jania Palmer- Paul said this- "I had to remove it to work on the accelerometer inside. The connections to the accelerometer, the basis of the system's servo control for the woofers, gets a little gunky and old and I have to clean it on occassion."
Rhodium plated RCA Y-connectors are the way to go.
Whats the speaker behind you?
Infinity RS5 (the woofer tower)
How about an active crossover? Maybe I'm totally wrong?????
Why can't you use the right channel pre-amp out to the right sub and visa-versa, instead of using a set of Y connectors on each output?
Disadvantage of Y connecters for amplifiers
You STILL haven't replaced the dust cap on that woofer !! It is an air leak otherwise!
You say that you shouldn't be able to point to the sub or identify it ... I agree ! So why have 2 placed apart ? I keep asking this question because the room becomes a total pressure domain at very low frequencies... in other words the whole room vibrates ... so it's far better to LOCALISE the source of excitation . Failure to do this will result in positional interference and subsequent phase cancellations..
You don't sound like a broken record. More like a broken DAC. (A good one.)
You should use rubber surrounds instead of foam surrounds so they last a longer time
Would luke to see a video of the irs v speakers performing a big orchestral piece of music.
Thomas Cordero you are welcome to go and see for yourself. Paul is always inviting people to go. I'm going in June.
Great video. What happen to the dust cap on ur awesome Infinity IRS sub tower? 😬
MegaF1guy he removed it to place an accelerometer so they can accurately measure it's performance.
Paul McGowan I see. Thanks Paul. Keep up the great videos.
MegaF1guy I has the best sound system in the world and I use Y connection to send stereo to my mono subwoofer it sounds great
patk2 - Sure you do. Thats what everyone says.
everyone says they has the best sound system that means you say you has the best sound system also
I use a Bluetooth setup never looked back. There subs not mains....
Joined in Serial! Maybe I'm totally wrong?
Hello...Great channel by the way, I'm wanting to run 3 subs in my room, the 1st sub is going on my centre channel with high level only via neutrik speakon cable ( NO LFE RCA) .1 cable) wired to the centre speaker post
The 2nd sub is going to be fed by another neutrik speakon cable on the front left and right channels ++- ( on the posts)
3rd sub is going to the back of the room also wired albeit with a lot longer neutrik speakon cable ( wired to the rear channels on the rear of the receiver ++- and 1 long RCA also ( I could make a cable up and split it from the rear speakers direct rather than going all the way to the AV receiver ( saves length) but I don't want to see the wire feeds so will the long neutrik from the sub back to the AV receiver be ok?
Lastly my AV receiver has 2 subwoofer outputs: subwoofer out and subwoofer pre out.. I'm looking to use a very high quality y splitter to feed the 2 subs ( front and rear) remember I don't need a RCA for the centre sub! Question..could I not just hook up both subs to the subwoofer AV receiver outputs is subwoofer out and subwoofer pre out? Or do they have different power/sound output? Or should I just split off from one output with the splitter subwoofer out or subwoofer pre out? Which is the best on to use.
Hmmmm. If it were my room I'd skip the rear placement and have all 3 subs L C R in the front. At the long wavelengths involved it would probably not matter where they were placed but you'd likely get a better sense of reality with separate L and R subs. I prefer the high level speaker connections into the subs and using the sub's crossover set low to make it all work.
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio wow thanks for the reply..I never thought of that! So no RCA cables at all then? Is that what you are saying? My pro acoustic pro 50 MK2 subs have twin crossovers ( high input neutrik and low level RCA) they are downfiring by the way...how would you exactly set them up then to a AV receiver..room is not that big..only about 15ft by 14 ft
i always love your Outro
Wouldn't connecting the power outs of an amplifier to the input of another amplifier be EXTREMELY bad for the input circuit of the secondary amplifier? I have done this before with the amplification end of a sound card into the input of another amp and it blew the input circuit in the amplifier. A sound cards amplifier is very weak, maybe 15 to 25 watts. I can only imagine what 250 watts would do to the input phase of a power amp and I can't imagine that it is good. Not to mention that your first power amp is going to be seeing a secondary load of 100k ohms which may be negligible to the sound quality, but really who knows....
I also don't really see the need of sending the distortion of your power amp to the power amp of the woofer. The woofers power amp is going to have its own distortion anyways, so adding the distortion of the first amp is just going to multiply how much distortion you are getting. Personally, I think if your preamp doesn't have multiple outputs, you got the wrong preamp for your application.
Unless you are talking about an unpowered woofer, in which case it is just a simple question of can your amp handle a 4 ohm load.
oh, ok, that makes more sense. In that case you are just dealing with the reduced ohms seen by the preamp. That can add distortion but it can be eliminated with series resistors on both ends of the Y. The only problem this causes is reduced output and you will have to set your gain higher.
My preamp is 30 Ohms into an amplifier of 100K Ohms and the manual itself states that splitting the outputs with a Y connector is not suggested as it will produce distortion. It also states that if you must, use series resistors of at least 1K Ohms in series on the tails of the Y to reduce this distortion. I have yet to try that but it seems like it is not optimal to say the least.
I think rel subs also have a wireless connection for their subs and they claim no sound degradation.
Why bother with a 30 foot interconnect. Just connect your REL sub woofers to the back of the Wilson Shasas? They can't be 30 feet from each other.
Didn't he say he connected them to the back of the amp as reccommended and it blew the fuse on the amp, either end of the speaker cable it's going to be same result.
Yes, I agree. Just pointing out how Paul, in other posts, has connected his subs to his speakers. Don't know why either way would blow a fuse unless there was a issue with the integrity of the wires or a defect in the subs. I can't imagine that this puts any additional load on the amps since the subs are driven by their own internal amps. My proposal does cut back on the total amount of speaker wire used. I have blown amp fuses using much lesser quality amps with say an A/B speaker switch and then used very long runs of cheap, say zip cord, speaker wire. An old Cambridge Amp comes to mind.
Good speaker wire is expensive. Why buy two long sets of speaker wires to run from the back of the amps or use a y connector on the back of the amp. I have an 8 foot pair of MG Planus IV Speaker Wires that run from the amps to the speakers. These wires were expensive but sound exquisite. I would not want to duplicate that effort just for the subs. I run a 4 foot pair of good quality but less expensive wires with pins on one end (connected to the Speaker's binding post and spades on the other end connected to the subs, in my case the Martin Logan Descent i's. This allows to position the subs around the Speakers until they "disappear" and keeps the integrity of the investment in the "cd/dac-amp-speaker" connections.
Bris'bn my man. You don't pronounce the A.
a video from down under 😅
I’m freaking out right now 😁
one dust cap is missing
BRISbane hehe. Proper pronounciation is like BRISBEN 😊
matters not
haha
Cables don't 'sound'. If they do, they are broken!