Castle Roncolo in Bolzano. The walls and structures we're modified around 1400 (the swallow tail wall surrounded the whole keep back then), the Vintlers then added another structure, the castle is famous for its frescoes (considered quite controversial for their explicit and frolicky nature) and some of the ones you can see have astral sun and moon designs that mirror what's in voynich. In my humble opinion Hans Vintler is responsible for the voynich. He wrote a book (Die Plumen...) in German around 1411 that has artwork that somewhat resembles that of the voynich (the astral stuff does, as do some of the characters and an archer).
MONTHLY VOYNICH DEEP DIVES? SIGN ME UP! Seeing your little guy on the right reminded me of another possible lead to follow: the way people are drawn. from their hairstyles, proportions, the reddish lips on your example for instance... If there's any chance the voynich author has another extant work somewhere in the world where they've drawn people, their style could be comapred like a fingerprint to confirm likely shared authorship!
That's a very good question, but it appears tricky. I know people have tried in the past, but not much has come from it. Doing a video on this would take a few months of research I'm afraid...
@@geoffreypiltz271 agreed, and we do have some manuscript outliers. This knowledge does limit the range of options somewhat though. Can't have been a Finnish hermit.
A Facinating art-historical study. I loved some of your manuscript finds, and the cultural and historical range you considered. Congratulations. Just btw - use of such jagged battlements occurs in some medieval maps, too, and consistently refers then to an 'imperial' limit, and occasionally the limit of human habitation. There's an interesting example of Constantinople being represented with those merlons - not necessarily literal. Of course, the Voynich drawing you call the 'castle' combines that type with the square-topped type. You're right to distinguish between literal and symbolic or purely ornamental additions in art. Good, too, to see that you've included in your 'we' some discoveries made first by non-members of the ninja forum. As for where the manuscript was made - it could have been made anywhere the type was known. By a Venetian in the holy land, or a Genoese in the Crimea...but that's ok. Really great vid.
I looked all over and couldn’t find the Original video. I did find this one. Falak-ol-Aflak Castle in Iran. The merlins are wrong, but they have the unique clay pipe water supply system. Not sure about the date I didn’t get that far. It wasn’t Iran. I would remember that. I’m an American living in Thailand. Like I said on your last video. It wasn’t quite the Middle East. I’ll keep looking. Great video by the way. I learned a lot. I’m like you I feel it’s going to be a combination of all the clues that will solve the codex’s origin. Very curious about the communal baths filled with naked women that make me think of a Harim. Looking forward to your next video.
I wonder if the Catalan manuscript with the castles had anything to do with Alghero/Sardegna and the Aragon connection and the presence of Catalan there
I included the Catalan Atlas merely as an example of the "castles as symbols" possibility. No swallowtail merlons there, as far as I know, but it's still a fascinating medieval map. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Atlas Apparently associated with the Majorcan school of predominantly Jewish cartographers.
I really don't see why you dismissed out of hand the 'forked' merlons in Spain. The battlements depicted in the Voynich Manuscript actually resembles them *more* closely than the Ghibelline merlons which are distinctively curved. No such curves are seen in the Voynich battlements.
The Spanish ones often appear to have something like a cap on the forks. Also the other architectural elements of the castle and its surroundings (roofs of the towers, little "houses") don't read Spanish at all. You are right about the straight versus curved thing, but both classes also exist in Italy. Still, I did mention Spain for the off chance that someone wants to look into it.
@@andreaskallstrom9031 It isn't one outlier, there are multiple examples. That isn't the point anyway, I just think they're worthy of inclusion on the map, if examples as far away as Crimea are included. For that matter the Moscow Kremlin should be included if we want to be truly comprehensive.
There is cryptologist Josef Zlatoděj in Czech Republic, who claims to have deciphered the Voynich manuscript, using a method based on gematria. He is missing from the list on Voynich forum. He identifies the castle as Rožmberk Castle (first mentioned 1250) and the author as Eliška z Rožmberka (born 1466). You can find more on his blog or on his old blog available via Wayback Machine.
I understand why it was easy to dismiss as unrelated to the Voynich Manuscript but I really want to know why a 14th century Sefardi Pesach Haggadah depicts swallowtail merlons.
@@ThaliaRosy-ee4qo me too! It's remarkable, but I don't know the answer. It's even more intriguing because the particular style of swallowtail merlons looks more Italian than Iberian. Maybe they had Italian manuscripts? Maybe one of the scribes visited Italy and liked the dramatic merlons? Maybe they even knew enough about them to lend them certain connotations? Maybe they were aiming for the Iberian style after all? Whatever the case may be, it's a clear outlier.
@voynichtalk I thought maybe it could be related to the number of swallowtail merlons depictions from the period related to biblical stories like on judean buildings and such? Maybe they saw them as a motif of high end biblical art (the could have even been trying to copy Italian motifs). If this was the case then it would be a really interesting example of Christian artistic conventions making there way into Jewish art.
@@ThaliaRosy-ee4qo the overall associations of the motif are still unclear to me; there's also Caesar attacking the British isles, or several manuscripts about the Trojan war. The situation is probably complex. On the one hand there are examples where you can suspect certain associations, but on the other it appears like this was simply the artist's idea of what "a castle" looked like. And in those cases where the motif had associations, those would probably have depended upon the artist's (or his patron's) own background. We can also wonder whether the biblical connections mean anything, or are just a result of the sheer amount of biblical scenes depicted during the Middle Ages.
@voynichtalk I have just found what the page says it’s the very beginning of the Seder This is the lachma anya [literally "poor bread," could be translated "bread of affliction" or could mean a simple/unleavened bread] that our ancestors ate in the land of Egypt. All who are hungry - come and eat, all who are in need - come and celebrate Passover [or could mean "eat the Passover offering"]. Now we are here, next year may we be in the Land of Israel. Now we are slaves, next year may we be free. The two very large letters at the top of the page spell ‘Ha’ meaning the I don’t think this actually brings me any closer to figuring out the swallowtails though. I wonder if give the last line mentioning next year in freedom the castle part might represent Jerusalem or perhaps more specifically the third temple? Still doesn’t explain the architecture itself though.
@voynichtalks I was talking with the person who helped figure out what the text on the page said and they told me that there were a number of mistakes in the calligraphy that are common when people who don’t know Hebrew try to write it. I wonder if the script inconsistencies they noticed are related to the out of place swallowtail merlons? Maybe a wealthy Sefardi family commissioned a goyish Italian scribe to produce the manuscript probably as a wedding gift
It's Mos-co", not "Mos-Cow". English spelling and pronunciation doesn't always match up, unless you're American, and even they fail at times. "Mos-cow" is American and "Mos-co" pretty much everybody else.
Hmm, I've always heard Mos-Cow, but then again I mostly hear American English. I sure know how the Germans say it: th-cam.com/video/lyuFLU2Zqz0/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared&t=73
@geoffreypiltz271 it must be a British thing. Americans tend to prefer Moss-cow (I'm sure there's regional variation). In Dutch we also say Moss-cow. In German it's even written Moskau.
Castle Roncolo in Bolzano. The walls and structures we're modified around 1400 (the swallow tail wall surrounded the whole keep back then), the Vintlers then added another structure, the castle is famous for its frescoes (considered quite controversial for their explicit and frolicky nature) and some of the ones you can see have astral sun and moon designs that mirror what's in voynich. In my humble opinion Hans Vintler is responsible for the voynich. He wrote a book (Die Plumen...) in German around 1411 that has artwork that somewhat resembles that of the voynich (the astral stuff does, as do some of the characters and an archer).
There's a digital tour available online (you can see the frescoes) and you can download an audio guide for the location that talks about the history.
Could you please provide a hyperlink to where you set forth your evidence that Voynich was copied in Bolzano?
@@GeraldM_inNC TH-cam doesn't seem to be a fan of my Google drive links. Hopefully you got it before they removed it.
Thanks! Both the castle and the frescos were previously added already: www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1y1hxOfGDFhqo97deJVvFNi7ASspTlp9v&usp=sharing
TH-cam removes many posts with links, unfortunately I can't do much about that.
MONTHLY VOYNICH DEEP DIVES? SIGN ME UP!
Seeing your little guy on the right reminded me of another possible lead to follow: the way people are drawn. from their hairstyles, proportions, the reddish lips on your example for instance... If there's any chance the voynich author has another extant work somewhere in the world where they've drawn people, their style could be comapred like a fingerprint to confirm likely shared authorship!
That's a very good question, but it appears tricky. I know people have tried in the past, but not much has come from it. Doing a video on this would take a few months of research I'm afraid...
Great research work and infographics!
All the picture of the castle means is that the Voynich author had seen such crenellations. He may have travelled very widely.
@@geoffreypiltz271 agreed, and we do have some manuscript outliers. This knowledge does limit the range of options somewhat though. Can't have been a Finnish hermit.
Can have been a Finnish hermit with access to books.
Clicked so fast when I saw this :)
Fascinating! Thanks as always!
A Facinating art-historical study. I loved some of your manuscript finds, and the cultural and historical range you considered. Congratulations. Just btw - use of such jagged battlements occurs in some medieval maps, too, and consistently refers then to an 'imperial' limit, and occasionally the limit of human habitation. There's an interesting example of Constantinople being represented with those merlons - not necessarily literal. Of course, the Voynich drawing you call the 'castle' combines that type with the square-topped type. You're right to distinguish between literal and symbolic or purely ornamental additions in art. Good, too, to see that you've included in your 'we' some discoveries made first by non-members of the ninja forum. As for where the manuscript was made - it could have been made anywhere the type was known. By a Venetian in the holy land, or a Genoese in the Crimea...but that's ok. Really great vid.
Interesting discussion.
I looked all over and couldn’t find the Original video. I did find this one. Falak-ol-Aflak Castle in Iran. The merlins are wrong, but they have the unique clay pipe water supply system. Not sure about the date I didn’t get that far. It wasn’t Iran. I would remember that. I’m an American living in Thailand. Like I said on your last video. It wasn’t quite the Middle East. I’ll keep looking. Great video by the way. I learned a lot. I’m like you I feel it’s going to be a combination of all the clues that will solve the codex’s origin. Very curious about the communal baths filled with naked women that make me think of a Harim. Looking forward to your next video.
What if this castle is just nonexisting now?
@@jakubolszewski8284 very possible. In that case, finding out the geographical range of similar structures is the best we can do.
This guy is awewsome!
I wonder if the Catalan manuscript with the castles had anything to do with Alghero/Sardegna and the Aragon connection and the presence of Catalan there
I included the Catalan Atlas merely as an example of the "castles as symbols" possibility. No swallowtail merlons there, as far as I know, but it's still a fascinating medieval map. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Atlas
Apparently associated with the Majorcan school of predominantly Jewish cartographers.
I really don't see why you dismissed out of hand the 'forked' merlons in Spain. The battlements depicted in the Voynich Manuscript actually resembles them *more* closely than the Ghibelline merlons which are distinctively curved. No such curves are seen in the Voynich battlements.
The Spanish ones often appear to have something like a cap on the forks. Also the other architectural elements of the castle and its surroundings (roofs of the towers, little "houses") don't read Spanish at all.
You are right about the straight versus curved thing, but both classes also exist in Italy.
Still, I did mention Spain for the off chance that someone wants to look into it.
Because the totality of evidence already heavily indicate northern Italy, and one outlier isn’t going to change that.
@@andreaskallstrom9031 It isn't one outlier, there are multiple examples.
That isn't the point anyway, I just think they're worthy of inclusion on the map, if examples as far away as Crimea are included. For that matter the Moscow Kremlin should be included if we want to be truly comprehensive.
@@voynichtalk Can you explain what you mean about the roofs and houses?
Kremlin was built too late for it to be included @@patavinity1262
There is cryptologist Josef Zlatoděj in Czech Republic, who claims to have deciphered the Voynich manuscript, using a method based on gematria. He is missing from the list on Voynich forum. He identifies the castle as Rožmberk Castle (first mentioned 1250) and the author as Eliška z Rožmberka (born 1466). You can find more on his blog or on his old blog available via Wayback Machine.
I understand why it was easy to dismiss as unrelated to the Voynich Manuscript but I really want to know why a 14th century Sefardi Pesach Haggadah depicts swallowtail merlons.
@@ThaliaRosy-ee4qo me too! It's remarkable, but I don't know the answer. It's even more intriguing because the particular style of swallowtail merlons looks more Italian than Iberian.
Maybe they had Italian manuscripts? Maybe one of the scribes visited Italy and liked the dramatic merlons? Maybe they even knew enough about them to lend them certain connotations? Maybe they were aiming for the Iberian style after all? Whatever the case may be, it's a clear outlier.
@voynichtalk I thought maybe it could be related to the number of swallowtail merlons depictions from the period related to biblical stories like on judean buildings and such? Maybe they saw them as a motif of high end biblical art (the could have even been trying to copy Italian motifs). If this was the case then it would be a really interesting example of Christian artistic conventions making there way into Jewish art.
@@ThaliaRosy-ee4qo the overall associations of the motif are still unclear to me; there's also Caesar attacking the British isles, or several manuscripts about the Trojan war. The situation is probably complex. On the one hand there are examples where you can suspect certain associations, but on the other it appears like this was simply the artist's idea of what "a castle" looked like.
And in those cases where the motif had associations, those would probably have depended upon the artist's (or his patron's) own background.
We can also wonder whether the biblical connections mean anything, or are just a result of the sheer amount of biblical scenes depicted during the Middle Ages.
@voynichtalk I have just found what the page says it’s the very beginning of the Seder
This is the lachma anya [literally "poor bread," could be translated "bread of affliction" or could mean a simple/unleavened bread] that our ancestors ate in the land of Egypt.
All who are hungry - come and eat, all who are in need - come and celebrate Passover [or could mean "eat the Passover offering"].
Now we are here, next year may we be in the Land of Israel.
Now we are slaves, next year may we be free.
The two very large letters at the top of the page spell ‘Ha’ meaning the
I don’t think this actually brings me any closer to figuring out the swallowtails though.
I wonder if give the last line mentioning next year in freedom the castle part might represent Jerusalem or perhaps more specifically the third temple?
Still doesn’t explain the architecture itself though.
@voynichtalks
I was talking with the person who helped figure out what the text on the page said and they told me that there were a number of mistakes in the calligraphy that are common when people who don’t know Hebrew try to write it.
I wonder if the script inconsistencies they noticed are related to the out of place swallowtail merlons? Maybe a wealthy Sefardi family commissioned a goyish Italian scribe to produce the manuscript probably as a wedding gift
"The Holy Land" sure is a funny way to refer to Israel.
5:48 actually that’s England
No way. No mountains like that in England.
No that's Crimea in Russia
italy
Wait, so its all just a prototype monty python joke? :)
th-cam.com/play/PLNNZZOSa8w1trMNDRYyvHFoFjcBp6Yk2B.html
th-cam.com/video/L_D7519kDE0/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=GrzegorzOstrowski
It's Mos-co", not "Mos-Cow". English spelling and pronunciation doesn't always match up, unless you're American, and even they fail at times. "Mos-cow" is American and "Mos-co" pretty much everybody else.
Hmm, I've always heard Mos-Cow, but then again I mostly hear American English. I sure know how the Germans say it: th-cam.com/video/lyuFLU2Zqz0/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared&t=73
Moss-co for me in Britain.
@geoffreypiltz271 it must be a British thing. Americans tend to prefer Moss-cow (I'm sure there's regional variation). In Dutch we also say Moss-cow. In German it's even written Moskau.