Genetics and environment are both important factors. Genetics influence us much more than people want to admit. They've done plenty of studies on separated identical twins. They're shockingly similar despite having grown up in different places and economic conditions.
You are entirely right, and it Alpharius and Omegon, most likely. But with the other seventeen? Debatable. The Emperor did use magic, the Warp, and bio-manipulation. In such a situation, you'd be forgiven to cast put the 'genetics' aspect.
That vision Russ had always gave me the idea that the Primarchs were supposed to be like Elite officers and not warlord generals. But their worlds had given them that hands on approach to things and a desire to lead from the front, which may be noble but the desire to do so was something for chaos to prey upon. The Emperor probably would have had them a lot closer in personality to the custodes is my guess.
@edmundthespiffing2920 my guess is that the primarchs would still be corruptable but it would have taken way more work, and the emperor was on some sort of time limit. So perhaps his initial plans accounted for chaos not being able to crack them within that time, but Im definitely just speculating at this point lol.
Well it ignores the changes that many legions underwent when they were united with their primarchs as well as conveniently sidestepping the fact that several legion were initially quite similar in temperament. For instance, it wasn't only the war hounds who were known for the savagery and brutality of their assaults. Curze is also assuming that the Emperor shared his own level of confidence in the accuracy and reliability of his foresight, when we know that this was explicitly not the case.
I've thought a lot about this. And I believe that the Primarchs are more than 50% shaped by the warp entities implanted in their engineered bodies. And those souls were drawn to these appropriate planets through the warp. Like attracts like. The Great Angel was drawn to a world whose destiny is governed by angels. The Lord of Iron was drawn to a planet of mountain fortresses. And the Nighthaunter was drawn to a world of eternal night.
I just wonder how Choas didnt claim them. I think the Primarchs got abit of cleansed Gods in them Big E carved out of them and when the Primarchs were in the warp, the god bits shot them out onto the planets that would foster them.
I don't think the EoM allowed the Scattering I think he....prepared for it. Under the idea that something like the Scattering was one of a number of moves he foresaw Chaos trying. So he made sure should it happen then he would make sure the Primarchs arrived on prepared worlds. With as I mentioned before Guillemin being the only Primarch he actively watched over and made sure was found by the 'right' people.
@Wolf Lord Rho I’d love to hear more of your thoughts on Fulgrim & Jaghatai having their destinations switched during the scattering. Say, what would one look like if that never happened. You’re an amazing loretuber. Maybe someday I’ll be half as good as you! :)
But did angrons personality really match his world? There's lots of talk of him being more of a healer or paladin but the nails broke him of that. Yes a lot of worlds match well with the primarch that was sent there, but some don't match. I also wonder if it's a chicken or the egg situation. How much did the world affect each primarch, and push them into certain things?
Exactly, and having no good information on the two missing Primarchs we have even less ability to make comparisons and contrasts. Think what we would know if the mystery of the 2 were revealed?
I feel like the Primarchs we’re gonna be scattered, but in a more controlled way by the big E. Like he wanted them to grow out in the galaxy, but after he taught them.
I feel like a "duh" is in order. I do this all the time tho, believe I have an epiphany, only come to find out it's painfully obvious to most people around me. 🎉
Doesn't make sense to me. They were going to be his generals, fighting on frontiers of the Crusade. That is enough to experience independance and growth. Scattering them would have been a pointless waste of time.
This is close to my theory. I think Big E forsaw that Chaos would come for them, and in his at the time limited understanding of their power thought he could stop them. At the last minute, when he realized his error, the best he could do was try to direct where most (half) of them would go so h3 coulr pick th3m up. To me, that explains why he seems to literally not care how evil or messed up some of them are when he finds them because he has resigned himself to the understanding they are chaos touched. Instead, he is trying to figure out how to keep that chaos from hitting the other primarchs as well as cleanse it one day. Again, something he didnt fully understand until far too late
There is another option that I don't think we consider, perhaps the warp entities sent them to planets that were bastardizations of what their purpose was? So, it's not that the Emperor planned the scattering, but that they were sent to worlds tailor made for them, BUT ones that were also picked to corrupt them in some way or another.
I can see that with the Traitors and even like Russ, his demanor and actions were important to ruining Magnus. And imagine if Big E went full "Dont trust anything that doesnt glow like me" to Magnus.
I truly believe Emperor didn't plan the scattering. I mean you don't build yourself 20 Demi-gods just to give half to chaos and "loose" 2 along the way. Magnus clearly had a direct purpose to handle the Throne, Lorgar supposed to be the Voice of the Emperor, Conrad had to uphold the law, Perturabo Build new tech, Alpharius a spy, Horus a leader and Fulgrim to to try and obtain a more fabulous hair than the Big E.
Why did the Primarchs grow so fast? Why was Angron able to kill an ELDARI strike team at pretty much the moment he emerged from the pod, for example? (The Lion and Russ surviving on hostile, wild worlds is almost as crazy, giving Angron the leg up because of the intelligence and armament difference between Eldari and wild animals.) Why did most of the Primarchs reach "adulthood" in a matter of what, 5 years? How was the Emperor supposed to give TWENTY competitive, brilliant, ambitious and deserving boys an appropriate amount of attention? They had most knowledge in themselves already as well, so what was the Emperor supposed to teach them? How did the Emperor plan on controlling 20 Primarch children/teenagers? Was the plan to bring them out at different times, one or two at a time, then use the older ones to control the younger ones? Were the Custodes going to be the custodians of the Primarchs until they were able to be on their own? No, I think the Scattering was always meant to happen. Or, if not outright planned, that the Emperor saw it was a virtual certainty, and so designed them in such a way that they would be able to survive damn near any scenario the moment they left their gestation pods. Perhaps he hoped that he could avoid it, and planned for what would happen if he succeeded in stopping it, but all in all I think he expected it would happen.
He probably enough hints that showed the Primarchs would leave him unwillingly so he hedged his bets. Also if they stood on earth, i think he would of did them one by one or in batches of 4 or 5?
He had rooms built for each and every one of them below the Imperial Palace. Dorn found them abandoned while he was fortifying Terra to prepare for the Siege. He definetly planned to raise them, what that plan looked like we don't know
There's some truth I think in all these scenarios. I think the Chaos version is actually Erda and not Horus. She was lost in pursuit to free her children. She's powerful enough to kill custodes and the emperor saying "I know you" and then in my opinion instead of stopping it (or possibly not being able to) he altered it and sent them to the world's he wanted. It doesn't mean he forsaw it ,more altered a path that was chosen.
Not bad idea but only like G man help conquer more worlds. Doe i think like Curze or some of the more unstable ones wanted to conquer, they would have a chip on their Shoulder.
I am confused about something, in The First Heretic book when Lorgar send Argel Thal to discover the truth about the warp the Gods makes him time travel and provoke the scattering Is it still cannon or was it just Chaos hallucinations ?
I believe it was erda who sent out the Primarchs to worlds she knew would suit them and I believe the vision Horus saw was what the chaos gods were able to see I believe erda can hide her presence from them and even the emperor which Is why the Chaos couldn't see her and as such the vision Horus saw didn't show her I believe the emperor knew she may attempt this and failed to stop her and failed so all 3 takes on this are true but from different perspectives
Personally it makes sense that the Emperor intended to raise the primarchs on Terrra for a time and THEN "scatter" them to their respective worlds as a sort of final trial. Angron would conquer Niceria through brotherhood, Guilliman Macragge through diplomacy, Mortarion Barbarus through tenacity etc. It is no mistake that every primarch landed on a world that perfectly reflected their nature.
Did the planets the Primarchs landed on reflect their natures, or did they form their natures? Did the ruinous powers insert some chaos in their matrices to foment the development of these natures to sabotage the project?
Now if the primarchs were a product of the planets they landed on, then how does one square the legions falling to the same traits the primarchs had before they were found? Quantum primarch entanglement? QPE? Planet-> primarch-> legion?
Corax, Mortarion, Angron and Sanguinius's legions were somewhat different before they met their primarchs, so I am not so sure about inheriting the same traits as their gene fathers.
@@waterbloom1213 I can't remember how the raven guard were but the dusk raiders were about about total grinding assault and resilience just like morty. The war hounds were like Angron just not to the full extent. And the blood angels were brutal as was sanguinius but he figured out how to tame it. 3 of your 4 examples were like their primarchs but diluted. The were hightened to their primarchs' level once he was found.
@@adams5613 The Raven guard until meeting Corax was often used as a frontline legion by Horus. The emphasis on fast hitting and stealth was not as prevalent then. The Blood Angels were more like the World Eaters until they met with Sanguinius. So yeah they were combat beasts either way but their overall philosophy and culture was very different. Same with the Dusk Raiders and Mortarion, who became much more brutal alongside him and drastically changed their traditions. As for Angron, the legion was supposed to be more like supportive and noble paladins and ended up becoming crazed berserkers. To me it's not so clear that the legions were copies of their primarch and planet in the way they carried warfare. Honestly I think both of our points are valid.
It' not by chance that a mongolian primarch ended up on space mongolian planet and the only black primarch ended up on a planet of only black people. Your surrounding can impact your character but not your etnicity...
but Jagatai was supposed to land on Chemos and become Space North Korean. Fulgrim was supposed to land on Chogoris and be raised by the other culture there that was high middle ages Space French.
I think the Primarchs and Legions were shaped by Black Library and authors piecing together the lore as they came about it or learned what someone else was writing that might contradict what they wrote.
Well that's the entire point of like the last 3 or 4 of his uploads. He literally went through the perspectives of everyone from the Imperium, to Chaos, to Erda, to the Primarchs themselves
Genetics and environment are both important factors. Genetics influence us much more than people want to admit. They've done plenty of studies on separated identical twins. They're shockingly similar despite having grown up in different places and economic conditions.
You are entirely right, and it Alpharius and Omegon, most likely. But with the other seventeen? Debatable. The Emperor did use magic, the Warp, and bio-manipulation. In such a situation, you'd be forgiven to cast put the 'genetics' aspect.
Sanguineous never said he believes the emperor was involved. He simply said he didn’t believe it was chance.
Did the fact he said just that imply the Angel has no idea about why it happened? :/
Angron was crippled by his homeworld. Him landing there suited Khorne's plans but didn't suit the Emperor at all.
Considering they were in the warp, makes sense why some landed on potato planets.
Doe i think some got spared by something while others winged it.
Maybe this was the deal the Emperor made with the Warp entities. You give me power, and I'll use a portion of it to craft tools for the four of you.
That vision Russ had always gave me the idea that the Primarchs were supposed to be like Elite officers and not warlord generals. But their worlds had given them that hands on approach to things and a desire to lead from the front, which may be noble but the desire to do so was something for chaos to prey upon. The Emperor probably would have had them a lot closer in personality to the custodes is my guess.
Wouldn't Horus have turned like this then?
@edmundthespiffing2920 my guess is that the primarchs would still be corruptable but it would have taken way more work, and the emperor was on some sort of time limit. So perhaps his initial plans accounted for chaos not being able to crack them within that time, but Im definitely just speculating at this point lol.
Angron was clearly changed from the Emporer's intention by the world he landed on
Alpharius was conveniently dropped off nearby.
Well it ignores the changes that many legions underwent when they were united with their primarchs as well as conveniently sidestepping the fact that several legion were initially quite similar in temperament. For instance, it wasn't only the war hounds who were known for the savagery and brutality of their assaults. Curze is also assuming that the Emperor shared his own level of confidence in the accuracy and reliability of his foresight, when we know that this was explicitly not the case.
I've thought a lot about this. And I believe that the Primarchs are more than 50% shaped by the warp entities implanted in their engineered bodies. And those souls were drawn to these appropriate planets through the warp. Like attracts like. The Great Angel was drawn to a world whose destiny is governed by angels. The Lord of Iron was drawn to a planet of mountain fortresses. And the Nighthaunter was drawn to a world of eternal night.
I just wonder how Choas didnt claim them.
I think the Primarchs got abit of cleansed Gods in them Big E carved out of them and when the Primarchs were in the warp, the god bits shot them out onto the planets that would foster them.
I don't think the EoM allowed the Scattering I think he....prepared for it. Under the idea that something like the Scattering was one of a number of moves he foresaw Chaos trying. So he made sure should it happen then he would make sure the Primarchs arrived on prepared worlds. With as I mentioned before Guillemin being the only Primarch he actively watched over and made sure was found by the 'right' people.
@Wolf Lord Rho I’d love to hear more of your thoughts on Fulgrim & Jaghatai having their destinations switched during the scattering. Say, what would one look like if that never happened.
You’re an amazing loretuber. Maybe someday I’ll be half as good as you! :)
Many suspect that it was done by the Clown God for the Alderi's future and arguably had little or no effect on EoM or Chaos's plans.
Wolf lord dropping another fantastic video this was an awesome analysis
Angron’s world certainly didn’t suit him…
But did angrons personality really match his world? There's lots of talk of him being more of a healer or paladin but the nails broke him of that. Yes a lot of worlds match well with the primarch that was sent there, but some don't match. I also wonder if it's a chicken or the egg situation. How much did the world affect each primarch, and push them into certain things?
Exactly, and having no good information on the two missing Primarchs we have even less ability to make comparisons and contrasts. Think what we would know if the mystery of the 2 were revealed?
I feel like the Primarchs we’re gonna be scattered, but in a more controlled way by the big E. Like he wanted them to grow out in the galaxy, but after he taught them.
I feel like a "duh" is in order. I do this all the time tho, believe I have an epiphany, only come to find out it's painfully obvious to most people around me. 🎉
Doesn't make sense to me. They were going to be his generals, fighting on frontiers of the Crusade. That is enough to experience independance and growth. Scattering them would have been a pointless waste of time.
@@ОлегБочаров-щ8к I saw this one guy and i liked his reasoning, basically he prepared them incase anything bad would go wrong.
This is close to my theory. I think Big E forsaw that Chaos would come for them, and in his at the time limited understanding of their power thought he could stop them. At the last minute, when he realized his error, the best he could do was try to direct where most (half) of them would go so h3 coulr pick th3m up. To me, that explains why he seems to literally not care how evil or messed up some of them are when he finds them because he has resigned himself to the understanding they are chaos touched. Instead, he is trying to figure out how to keep that chaos from hitting the other primarchs as well as cleanse it one day. Again, something he didnt fully understand until far too late
I have to agree, the Primarchs were shaped by their environment, they just can’t see it because they’re all too wrapped up in the Emperor’s glamour.
There is another option that I don't think we consider, perhaps the warp entities sent them to planets that were bastardizations of what their purpose was? So, it's not that the Emperor planned the scattering, but that they were sent to worlds tailor made for them, BUT ones that were also picked to corrupt them in some way or another.
I can see that with the Traitors and even like Russ, his demanor and actions were important to ruining Magnus.
And imagine if Big E went full "Dont trust anything that doesnt glow like me" to Magnus.
I think that's the most likely and best answer!
Thanks for this series, really enjoyed it. your style of delivery is perfect for me. Cheers
I truly believe Emperor didn't plan the scattering. I mean you don't build yourself 20 Demi-gods just to give half to chaos and "loose" 2 along the way. Magnus clearly had a direct purpose to handle the Throne, Lorgar supposed to be the Voice of the Emperor, Conrad had to uphold the law, Perturabo Build new tech, Alpharius a spy, Horus a leader and Fulgrim to to try and obtain a more fabulous hair than the Big E.
Imagine a scenario with 20 Primarchs standing around a fighting ring watching each other fight servitors on maximum lethality level. 🤯❤️🤩
This is like the telephone game. Can we just agree that everyone has a different perspective of what actually happened . 🤩
NO! There can be only ONE! * highlander theme starts to play *
Nice...enjoyed this week..thanks
Why did the Primarchs grow so fast? Why was Angron able to kill an ELDARI strike team at pretty much the moment he emerged from the pod, for example? (The Lion and Russ surviving on hostile, wild worlds is almost as crazy, giving Angron the leg up because of the intelligence and armament difference between Eldari and wild animals.) Why did most of the Primarchs reach "adulthood" in a matter of what, 5 years? How was the Emperor supposed to give TWENTY competitive, brilliant, ambitious and deserving boys an appropriate amount of attention? They had most knowledge in themselves already as well, so what was the Emperor supposed to teach them? How did the Emperor plan on controlling 20 Primarch children/teenagers? Was the plan to bring them out at different times, one or two at a time, then use the older ones to control the younger ones? Were the Custodes going to be the custodians of the Primarchs until they were able to be on their own?
No, I think the Scattering was always meant to happen. Or, if not outright planned, that the Emperor saw it was a virtual certainty, and so designed them in such a way that they would be able to survive damn near any scenario the moment they left their gestation pods. Perhaps he hoped that he could avoid it, and planned for what would happen if he succeeded in stopping it, but all in all I think he expected it would happen.
He probably enough hints that showed the Primarchs would leave him unwillingly so he hedged his bets.
Also if they stood on earth, i think he would of did them one by one or in batches of 4 or 5?
He had rooms built for each and every one of them below the Imperial Palace. Dorn found them abandoned while he was fortifying Terra to prepare for the Siege. He definetly planned to raise them, what that plan looked like we don't know
You're an Englishman, your ability to queue is off the charts.
There's some truth I think in all these scenarios.
I think the Chaos version is actually Erda and not Horus. She was lost in pursuit to free her children. She's powerful enough to kill custodes and the emperor saying "I know you" and then in my opinion instead of stopping it (or possibly not being able to) he altered it and sent them to the world's he wanted.
It doesn't mean he forsaw it ,more altered a path that was chosen.
what better way to conquer worlds than scatter the primarchs to grow up and become leader of the worlds before hes reunited with them
Not bad idea but only like G man help conquer more worlds.
Doe i think like Curze or some of the more unstable ones wanted to conquer, they would have a chip on their Shoulder.
But let us never forget.... the Emperor protects
Perturabo: "The Emperor neglects."
Morty- The Emperor KS, ban him for trolling.
Which section of england are you from? I would have figured Kansas
I am confused about something, in The First Heretic book when Lorgar send Argel Thal to discover the truth about the warp the Gods makes him time travel and provoke the scattering
Is it still cannon or was it just Chaos hallucinations ?
Probably the 2nd one, but that's the mystery behind it. We'll never know
I believe it was erda who sent out the Primarchs to worlds she knew would suit them and I believe the vision Horus saw was what the chaos gods were able to see I believe erda can hide her presence from them and even the emperor which Is why the Chaos couldn't see her and as such the vision Horus saw didn't show her I believe the emperor knew she may attempt this and failed to stop her and failed so all 3 takes on this are true but from different perspectives
Personally it makes sense that the Emperor intended to raise the primarchs on Terrra for a time and THEN "scatter" them to their respective worlds as a sort of final trial. Angron would conquer Niceria through brotherhood, Guilliman Macragge through diplomacy, Mortarion Barbarus through tenacity etc. It is no mistake that every primarch landed on a world that perfectly reflected their nature.
That makes sense. He knew it was coming, but not exactly when it was coming
Did the planets the Primarchs landed on reflect their natures, or did they form their natures? Did the ruinous powers insert some chaos in their matrices to foment the development of these natures to sabotage the project?
🎉
I am never going to READ! Wolf Lord!!!! Never!!!! I don't even know what I wrote!!!! Because I refuse to Read!
Now if the primarchs were a product of the planets they landed on, then how does one square the legions falling to the same traits the primarchs had before they were found? Quantum primarch entanglement? QPE? Planet-> primarch-> legion?
Corax, Mortarion, Angron and Sanguinius's legions were somewhat different before they met their primarchs, so I am not so sure about inheriting the same traits as their gene fathers.
@@waterbloom1213 I can't remember how the raven guard were but the dusk raiders were about about total grinding assault and resilience just like morty. The war hounds were like Angron just not to the full extent. And the blood angels were brutal as was sanguinius but he figured out how to tame it. 3 of your 4 examples were like their primarchs but diluted. The were hightened to their primarchs' level once he was found.
@@adams5613
The Raven guard until meeting Corax was often used as a frontline legion by Horus. The emphasis on fast hitting and stealth was not as prevalent then.
The Blood Angels were more like the World Eaters until they met with Sanguinius. So yeah they were combat beasts either way but their overall philosophy and culture was very different. Same with the Dusk Raiders and Mortarion, who became much more brutal alongside him and drastically changed their traditions.
As for Angron, the legion was supposed to be more like supportive and noble paladins and ended up becoming crazed berserkers.
To me it's not so clear that the legions were copies of their primarch and planet in the way they carried warfare.
Honestly I think both of our points are valid.
@@waterbloom1213 agreed!
Not every Primarch had it easy on their planets more than others, But what do you guys think?
Was the Canis Helix and Rus ending up on Fenris a coincidence then? Particularly given the genetic compatibility problems that would arise?
It' not by chance that a mongolian primarch ended up on space mongolian planet and the only black primarch ended up on a planet of only black people. Your surrounding can impact your character but not your etnicity...
The primarchs are warpy and were goo babies at the time.. the planet and inhabitants affecting the primarchs could be very real
but Jagatai was supposed to land on Chemos and become Space North Korean. Fulgrim was supposed to land on Chogoris and be raised by the other culture there that was high middle ages Space French.
I'd have to see you before I'd agree that you're English.
Rho is English?
You're ENGLISH???? D: D: D:
I thought you were Australian.
I think the Primarchs and Legions were shaped by Black Library and authors piecing together the lore as they came about it or learned what someone else was writing that might contradict what they wrote.
This is like the telephone game. Can we just agree that everyone has a different perspective of what actually happened . 🤩
Well that's the entire point of like the last 3 or 4 of his uploads. He literally went through the perspectives of everyone from the Imperium, to Chaos, to Erda, to the Primarchs themselves