TAYLORMADE SIM vs TITLEIST TSi3... WHICH IS BEST???

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
  • WHICH IS THE BEST FITTED DRIVER!? TAYLORMADE SIM vs TITLEIST TSi3...THE ULTIMATE COMPARISON!!! 2020 has seen the launch of some fantastic drivers... notably recently we have seen the new 2020 Titleist Drivers come to the market, the Titleist TSi2 and Titleist TSi3 Drivers... but how does a fitted Titleist TSi3 compare against a fitted Tailor-made Sim driver? which is the best driver of 2020? which is the longest driver of 2020? what's the best driver for mid handicap golfers? should you buy a new driver? do you need a new driver? in this video we take both drivers out on the golf course for a head to head and then also test them in the studio looking for numbers... let's do it... and let's do it now!

ความคิดเห็น • 296

  • @SwayPromo
    @SwayPromo 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I tested the tsi against my sim today. And I can’t wait to get my tsi. The spin was way better I didn’t get a few just 1400 spin ones that just fall out of the air. I have 170 ball speed. I hit a few 300 carry drives with tsi. Easier swing. Love It!

  • @IOJR17
    @IOJR17 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I tried the sim last week for a couple of indoor swings. Felt amazing but was a totally different feel and weight from my old R1. Going to try all options to see what’s the best fit. Hello from Texas

  • @jeffong1
    @jeffong1 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Changing my driver from TM M1 to a PXG gen 2 0811 XF this Fall. Cant wait to get it in my bag!

  • @warrenburch6545
    @warrenburch6545 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I've been playing the TS1 for a year now and will not be upgrading my driver no time soon. I like this format for testing.

  • @andylinacre8231
    @andylinacre8231 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Like the 50/50 part of the test , But no mention of price ?? Srixon ZX drivers are ubiquitous ! 😳
    Long word Thursday !
    On lockdown here !! so keep doing wot your doing !

  • @sprtsfanatic1
    @sprtsfanatic1 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Loved the hybrid inside and outside comparison. Get to take both factors of the course and the elements, versus testing in perfect settings and getting the numbers. I just picked up a SIM this week, after not upgrading a driver since 2012. I’m definitely in the honeymoon phase and haven’t yet been able to test it on the course. But, hitting on the range, it was phenomenal. My worst mishit would still have been workable on the course. Feels good to be using a TaylorMade driver again, after not using one since the Burner 2.0 from ‘09 and then my father’s OG Burner Bubble from the 90s

  • @wmvaux
    @wmvaux 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Yes enjoyed the outside and inside test, good way to really see how the different clubs stack up against one another.

  • @richardsdiaz1
    @richardsdiaz1 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Watching now! I’m looking forward to seeing your honest opinion on these 2 drivers!
    Will comment more after I’m done watching!

  • @nicholasmartin3540
    @nicholasmartin3540 3 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    Almost commented on yesterday’s video about please adding shot tracer, what a pleasant surprise! Great content James, always a good way to start off my mornings.

  • @TenPester
    @TenPester 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I have a Titleist full bag but sim driver with an Oban Kiyoshi white shaft that works so well with it. Also kinda decided after your video on it lol

  • @tonyveneziano5598
    @tonyveneziano5598 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I have a TS 2 and I hit frozen rope bombs with it won’t be upgrading until the 550 dollar price tag comes down but Titleist makes true golfers equipment I’m a huge fan of all their clubs gaming TS2 Driver TS3 fairway and my true love the 735 cm irons the best combo set ever made Vokey wedges and a 1996 Scotty Catalina. Handicap is coming down but currently 6.2

  • @randolphantoniuk5239
    @randolphantoniuk5239 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Like the idea of course then in doors. Not to worried about length. Cgeers James

    • @Garbox80
      @Garbox80 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Me too. It also allows him to do that on course test without knowing the differences and thus possibly affect his shots subconsciously. But a little bit of a warm up with some clubs would be benefical I think 😂

  • @russellgarner3073
    @russellgarner3073 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Just got a Sim max yesterday I’m 9 deg with hzrdus smoke 6.0. Got a launch angle of 12.3 and spin of 2100
    . Fitted at golf support in Mansfield

  • @michaelcooley8275
    @michaelcooley8275 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    After testing drivers for literally weeks versus my 20 year old Titleist I came to the conclusion that there isn't much difference and certainly nothing there to pull $500 out of my pocket. Since I'm aging, (60) I bought a left over M3 with a regular shaft and it it helping me to get the ball up in the air.

  • @jimaverill1659
    @jimaverill1659 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I like this format ....outside comparison

  • @sonnymitchell8466
    @sonnymitchell8466 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I like the evrything cuz then we get see both sides how they are on course in real conditions n numbers that come from inside.

  • @johnsaundersorsam
    @johnsaundersorsam 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    As always though enjoy the content and delivery. P.S. love grumpy Chris !!

  • @garyr2723
    @garyr2723 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    All new club tests should follow this format in one video, compare with current gamer on course and in the studio, Repeat this format in a 2nd video with the mid handicapper. And a 3rd video on the course and in the studio with the the club it replaced from the same manufacturer 👌

  • @Ready_Golf
    @Ready_Golf 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Solid feedback on that review. I'm gaming the m5 tour driver, it can be such a joy to hit and I can square one up. I would be interested to see how a 460 driver of that caliber would feel and perform like.

  • @terrybrett6164
    @terrybrett6164 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I'm waiting to try the new ping g425 but will also try g410 and see the difference in performance and price.

  • @TonyAhie
    @TonyAhie 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Mic, new look, great! Definitely in an out ~ but mixing it up is good too. Particularly like the amateur testing, since most of us probably aren't pro 😂

  • @stuartmacdonald305
    @stuartmacdonald305 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Every time the heads hit together when you were holding them in the studio a little piece of me died

  • @j.christianlarsen8587
    @j.christianlarsen8587 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Nice video. I like when you do indoor and course comparisons for the same clubs.

  • @Unknown1234_9
    @Unknown1234_9 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Good honest review. Think it comes down to looks for you now so I think you're leaving towards the TSi3. Think your spec in the SIM might be good for me 🤔

  • @brianrizza2045
    @brianrizza2045 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    This was a good test because you had reality and also the numbers

  • @janikorhonen4488
    @janikorhonen4488 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    This format is great, where you go outdoors and indoors 👌

  • @nickhales8612
    @nickhales8612 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Playing Mizuno, but looking at getting a new fitting arranged, I have some ideas for the replacement but it’s about what I feel comfortable with on the day.

  • @AUSSIEGOLFREVIEWER
    @AUSSIEGOLFREVIEWER 3 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    Stop talking about inch out and premature in the same sentence. Gets my anxiety going

  • @grahamsmith539
    @grahamsmith539 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Great 👍 content, the price point of the Titleist is off putting, £519 seems excessive, but I might still give it a try against my Callaway Rogue

  • @grahame7859
    @grahame7859 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Got a fitting at titleist Thursday event for the tsi range soon. Looking forward to it

  • @ThunderMk2
    @ThunderMk2 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    What shaft is in the Titleist?

  • @aaronnimz3807
    @aaronnimz3807 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I really want to try a SIM driver. I currently have the F9. But...new irons are probably needed more.

  • @simonfaulkner2007
    @simonfaulkner2007 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Looking to try the Ping425, love a good Ping driver. Also looking forward to your review on it

  • @halfkraazy
    @halfkraazy 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Keep the new Titleist, and you can send me the SIM to test. 😆... Good video I enjoyed the format

  • @markc3653
    @markc3653 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Imo.. On the course is a much better way of comparing clubs

  • @donlai6674
    @donlai6674 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Addition of shot tracer is great.

  • @aartvdmolen
    @aartvdmolen 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Please reserve a place for the upcoming PING G425 Max and G425 SFT for us high handicappers needing maximum forgiveness

  • @Baby-tt9jy
    @Baby-tt9jy 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    17:19 the word you're looking for is "audibly"

  • @geecars8887
    @geecars8887 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Great video keep up the good work

  • @lokidecat
    @lokidecat 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I may look at the next Callaway (whatever is after Mavrik) if it has adjustability. i tend to have a little draw setting with my GBB Epic.

  • @ww-oo7ic
    @ww-oo7ic 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    something seems a bit off. Average PGA tour carry is 275 but that's with 167mph ball speed. now granted that's with 2600 spin and a bit of a downward delivery but a 275 carry with mid 150's ball speed seems like a bit of a stretch.

  • @X00000370
    @X00000370 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    The results were pretty much what I expected...it's Physics after all. I guess that why I'm still using my G30?

  • @bernardhilton3527
    @bernardhilton3527 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Other testers in TH-cam couldn’t separate these drivers. In the end it’s down to looks and sound. Fair comment?

  • @rysobaszkiewicz
    @rysobaszkiewicz 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Do you think the up in price for the TSi3 is worth it compared to the TS3?

  • @vesarontu3666
    @vesarontu3666 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    This is my first ever youtube comment 😀 I'm currently using the TS3...is it worth thinking of going for the i version!?! I like my TS3.. would I gain anything? 🤔

    • @scottmackey4182
      @scottmackey4182 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      I switched over and gained 10+ yards per drive. The new ATI face is amazing.

  • @scottwhite4685
    @scottwhite4685 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Hey James, how do you feel about the Hzrdus Yellow vs Black? I noticed that the TSI is in the blackand TM in yellow, which do you prefer?

  • @alanmartin6265
    @alanmartin6265 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I was wondering whether there is anything between the two types of ball . So why not try with one ball with both clubs. Alan Martin

  • @playandteach
    @playandteach 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    13:08 2 divots? What happened to the first shot - not like you to be shy of miss hits?

    • @JamesRobinsonGolf
      @JamesRobinsonGolf  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Poor practice swing mate. 😂😂😂 note how the ball never moves lol. (Yes you can duff a practice swing) 😂

  • @iansmith2685
    @iansmith2685 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Great video, shot tracer makes it more enjoyable, keep it up 👍

  • @michaelcollins989
    @michaelcollins989 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    mixing it up is perfect. inside is never real golf. having the outside option shows real life performance.

  • @markhillyer721
    @markhillyer721 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Who did the fittings? Seems your left miss could be reduced more. The slinger is fun but not every shot.

    • @JamesRobinsonGolf
      @JamesRobinsonGolf  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      The brands did them mate. Tell me about it 😂🙈

  • @jarosdav
    @jarosdav 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    What shafts are in the drivers?

  • @renmay3171
    @renmay3171 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    So you were fitted for both of these drivers, and I don’t know if the TM is draw bias and the Titleist is fade bias, but your Sim has the weight in the fade position and the TSI is in a draw setting? What’s up with that?

    • @JamesRobinsonGolf
      @JamesRobinsonGolf  3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Because the premises behind the Titleist fit is to maintain the ball speed on off centre bits Ren, you’ll see it doesn’t say draw or fade on the Titleist anymore. Big difference behind the weight tracks are at the front of the sim and back of the TSI 🤘🏼👍🏼

  • @andrewmurphy4921
    @andrewmurphy4921 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Must be great to be able to hit these amazing clubs all day

  • @lavonsurgick1038
    @lavonsurgick1038 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Are you adjusting the drivers or leaving them stock?

  • @Andrew-tr5yv
    @Andrew-tr5yv 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Have you done the new Srixon drivers?

  • @tonyk2860
    @tonyk2860 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I'm wondering about the difference between same manufacturer drivers 7 to 10 years ago with today's model. I would believe a lot of people have older drivers, but are not sure you get your money's worth with a new model. 5 or 10 yards gained would not be worth the money.

  • @joelcopeland3018
    @joelcopeland3018 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Just bought a 2019 Cobra F9 Speedback in July... You really seem to prefer the TSi3.... just my take on the video... I really have no dog in the hunt...

  • @Bogeypro256
    @Bogeypro256 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Change out that 6.0 rdx shaft. It's spinning too much and accuracy isn't great. I tried it as well... It's not a great shaft.

  • @nojosm
    @nojosm 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Dry stats and on course test data

  • @stuartmillar5996
    @stuartmillar5996 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Good all round review and wasn’t too long to lose interest

  • @gillletourneau9863
    @gillletourneau9863 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    TM Sim Max? Callaway maybe.

  • @andrewpelley6369
    @andrewpelley6369 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    This look th-cam.com/video/lQ6AXjAvbF4/w-d-xo.html was priceless! LOL
    LOVE the on course content and side by side testing. I will pay attention to comparable data from a launch monitor, but outside is where I see true ballflights and carry distances. As someone else mentioned....maybe on a couple tees hit 3 with each and look at averages. Been seriously staring at the TSi3 with love in my eyes...but holy the prices these days! Got a mint condition used lefty ? :-)

  • @vegas005
    @vegas005 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    take a backswing mate. Short backswing equals pull left!

    • @JamesRobinsonGolf
      @JamesRobinsonGolf  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      First of all... no it doesn’t. 😂 second, my bad shot is a hook not a pull... and third of all, my physical state won’t let me 😂😂😂 it’s a curse! (Or a spinal injury)

  • @kielcathey2800
    @kielcathey2800 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Id like to see at test on the new Hogan driver...

  • @davidbowe9999
    @davidbowe9999 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Outdoor is better. I don't completely trust those launch monitors.

  • @chrissellings
    @chrissellings 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Audibly 😂😂The word you're looking for is audibly. Made no difference to the review James. Was good inside and out. I'm still using my M3. Like a comfortable pair of trainers.

  • @TimC887
    @TimC887 3 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Might I suggest a different type of test for drivers? 3-5 balls with each, on a few different tees, and then compare the averages. Smooths out the results on course. Just a thought. Cheers!

    • @JamesRobinsonGolf
      @JamesRobinsonGolf  3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      Good idea Tim, I’ve done this in the past but then thought “you only get one shot” when you play kinda thing

  • @garysylvester5685
    @garysylvester5685 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Just bought the Sim Max Team Europe Driver (Love the Colour Scheme over the normal one )in 10.5 only played with it for 2 rounds and in the 2nd round hit 10/11 good drives with it So happy so far

  • @richardsdiaz1
    @richardsdiaz1 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Finally watched the whole thing!
    I have a few thoughts...
    1). Seems like there is nothing to split the 2 drivers other than personal preference and the separation that a first class fitting can sometimes create.
    2). I’m not a huge fan a split colors or futuristic looks. So for the me the Titleist is a clear winner on looks.
    3). I don’t like the idea of twist face. I tend to miss high toe and the whole concept of twist face seems to run counter to my miss pattern.
    Also, I’d live to see the new TSi3 up against:
    1)TS3
    2) Maverick
    Thanks for a great video! Looking forward to more!

  • @robertbox7666
    @robertbox7666 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    When I tested drivers I tried everything PGA Superstore and Edwin Watts had. I ended up with the Cobra F8. The Titleist T2 was just as good but not $300.00 better.

  • @peterwhite6962
    @peterwhite6962 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Wpuld be super interested to see a TS4 vs TSI3, from what i have heard the TSI3 is a bit lower spin and more like a 3.5. Im going to test both when TSI3 comes out!

  • @davegambrill4495
    @davegambrill4495 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Much better doing both tests as one review👍 I’ll be looking to get the Taylormade Sim Max when Taylormade bring out their new driver as it looks and sounds 😍😍🔥🔥

  • @sirhc7938
    @sirhc7938 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Really good review, insight and diversity of conditions. I'm a huge Titleist fan, but ended up with a Taylormade, as it performed better for me. Thanks for the time and effort you put into your videos, a lot of work that goes unnoticed!

  • @johnmac4769
    @johnmac4769 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Your are great inside or outside. Enjoy you videos in either location.

  • @andrewbentley2593
    @andrewbentley2593 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Loving the on course section, especially with the addition of shot tracer. It adds so much to the review. Personally, a quick fast forward on the ‘net hits’ works wonders but love the stats at the end just for an empirical compare.

  • @brocklanders1984
    @brocklanders1984 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I own a SIM which I love, I can’t see there being a big enough improvement in any driver for at least a few generations.

  • @berriejasper2631
    @berriejasper2631 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Like how you’re doing the review, outside then in. Can we get some more reviews of mid cost clubs over the high end. Cost sadly doe factor.

  • @davidgerald285
    @davidgerald285 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Do the testing on course, I've just got TSi3 driver, 3wood, hybrid, all with Hzrdus rdx smoke stiff shafts, they're are better than my previous set of TS3 Evenflo stiff Dr, 3W, Hy.

  • @andrewmigmitch
    @andrewmigmitch 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Keep doing the on course test and then indoor test. 👍🏼
    Need to have a go of the titleist

  • @rickrisatti6029
    @rickrisatti6029 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I played a TS3 all summer.My golf partner bought a Sim and we both use a Hazardus yellow shaft. My skycaddy said I was 3mph faster and 12 yards longer with my titleist when testing both..I was very surprised but that's golf..I don't think I'll be getting the TSI anytime soon..Different reviews have said it might be 3 to 5 yards longer than the TS3..thats not worth $750 to me..

  • @simonsez39
    @simonsez39 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    James, I prefer you to test clubs in the studio, because it takes the environment out of the equation. An average of 10 shots with each club, you're going to get a good comparison. Your on course shots were influenced by weird bounces twice, you don't get that inside. JM2PW. And for you, SIM is best by a little mile. 🤔⛳👍

  • @markwoodward1716
    @markwoodward1716 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    3 shots in the rough vs 3 shots not great but fairway-ish and/or playable. Give me the forgiveness. (I play TS3 currently; maybe time for a change.) Thanks for the "Friday Nuggets"....

  • @gwilko6452
    @gwilko6452 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Everybody is different. Just go out and try different brands and pick what suits you best . I got custom fitted last week and was certain i wanted everything Cobra. Came out having bought Taylormade sim irons and driver. Picked my new driver up already waiting on the irons. I had been using and slicing a Cobra F7 for a year. The Taylormade Sim driver is just amazing, 15 yards either side of middle after 50 out 60 balls at the driving range . Well chuffed

  • @3944-w3q
    @3944-w3q 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Went and got fitted today. Walked in dead set on the Sim2 and walked out with the Tsi3 which wasnt even in the 4 drivers I started looking at (always a Taylormade guy). For whatever reason I could not get that Sim under control and Tsi was just longer and straighter for me. I hit high spinny drives typically and Tsi seemed to help me control it. (Hit a fade and quite high and spinny, 5 handicap) just for reference and my experience

  • @johnsaundersorsam
    @johnsaundersorsam 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I know it's not everything but based on the dry distance numbers (280 vs 278) and the current price from a well known high street store and my rough maths the Titleist would cost £30 for each extra yard.... Really !

  • @johnzelenjak
    @johnzelenjak 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Real shots are great. Simulator/studio is great but not real life. I currently game a mizuno GT180. I have tried the Sim, but my club pro thinks the TS3 will suit me better. Hoping to try that soon. I have also tried the Mavrick but not a fan of how it looks at address.

  • @stephenbeach1933
    @stephenbeach1933 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Where's the golf ball 16:11 (there's a pile of them behind you, unless it's down the left side of the simulator..!) PS loving the pix ball, have now played 72 holes without losing one, that's a win...!

  • @adrianrice354
    @adrianrice354 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    funny how you mishit the sim and only 15 to 20 yards behind on the 1 and 2nd drive and sim was in fw on second but you gave the hole to tsi , To each their own took 2 middle strikes to beat 2 off center strikes sounds like the sim is more forgiving to me lol since the sim won now your back tracking trying to make things up to make the TSi3 better then it was LOL SIM for the WIN

  • @AJ-pd8or
    @AJ-pd8or 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    “Audioally”
    “Audioally?”
    .. “With sound.”
    😂 ... Acoustically.

  • @garyhague5882
    @garyhague5882 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Not looking to buying a new driver anytime soon. Only had the mavrik driver since December. Definitely prefer the sound of the Titleist out of the two.

  • @samuelmosley3120
    @samuelmosley3120 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Tsi3 all day for me. I just bought one and compared to the stealth thw tsi3 dominated on all levels and got backspin around 2300 for me.

  • @markrudd917
    @markrudd917 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Much prefer reviews with shots on the golf course. I don’t mind the numbers review in the studio but there’s times when you’re in danger of disappearing up your own tail pipe through the analysis. Love your channel though James!

  • @keithfinley2939
    @keithfinley2939 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Hmmn... I think you hit SIM better on the sim... there isn't 500 rpm between the heads. That first tee shot was pretty convincing for TSi.

  • @kepler240
    @kepler240 ปีที่แล้ว

    2:21 that sound is why I sold my Cobra LTSX LS and bought this TSi3. That sound is phenomenal. The Cobra sounded a little hollow and felt too soft. This TSi3 is a bad you know what.

  • @mikeg.5233
    @mikeg.5233 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Your average hacker wouldn't know the difference. Next year he will go buy a new one and still remain a hacker. 😂😂😂

  • @nadyerfdog22
    @nadyerfdog22 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    They are both very nice looking drivers... wondering about the TSi face? How much better is that new technology?

  • @curtismelick2513
    @curtismelick2513 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Gaming a ts2 with haz smoke shaft. 10.5 set to 12. Considering tsi3. Thoughts?

  • @jamiegilbert1098
    @jamiegilbert1098 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Good video.stay out doors as much as you can.we don't PLAY golf in the club house.

  • @creepintrex
    @creepintrex 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    When you dropped your club on accident you said, "that would have been a stroke penalty." Why is that a penalty?

    • @chrissellings
      @chrissellings 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Think James was referring to if he'd dropped the club and it hit/caused the ball to move. Rule 9 ball not moved by natural causes.