Given how innovative that the IJN was concerning their designs, this was a missed opportunity to use her as a CAP / interceptor specific unit, with strike aircraft centred on the heavy carriers. Imagine Midway with IJN CAP recovery not causing delays in closing the flight decks to recovery / preparation of their balanced strike groups.
At Midway wasn't the delay of the "strike planes" not CAP aircraft the downfall of the fleet? The strike craft went from loading bomb to unloading them for torps to bombs again?
I've always quite liked the Ryujou. Very unique in appearance, but with graceful hull lines mated to the towering hangers. After modifications, she was a fairly capable carrier!
I've always liked the IJN Junyo myself "Peregrine Falcon" but Japanese carriers in general like the Ryujo just look cool despite their purpose for war.
Early leaders of the Navy and government in early 1920s were peaceniks like rest of the world after the Great War. They saw what the limitations were for, either for save the Navy from itself (couldn't compete with USA) or through annual national budgets of the Japanese people as 8-8 program was bankruptingthe country. Warhawks used pressure through assassination or phasing out/ retirement of the older admirals, so later in mid 1930s the younger hotheads demanded a bigger Navy they got it.
The ship did prove to be pretty useful for the IJN, providing some need cover during the Sino-Japanese war, and than proved to be one of the best second line carriers in the early war, only really being behind the Zuihos, which had been designed way after her.
OT: The whole treaty dodging took on a new form after the London naval treaty with anything under 600 tons being exempt from counting as destroyers. Hence many nations, especially Germany, Italy and Japan, developed torpedo boats ostensibly (but never actually) under 600 tons which ranged from useless for combat operations (German type 1935 and 1937 types) to downright dangerous for the crews (Tomozuru incident). Only the italians got half way decent combat vessels out of this and even these were heavier than claimed
Your initial conclusion at 1:05 "of flawed but not a complete waste of space" over looks some important facts. Had Japan actually been "less ambitious" about having a large two tier hangar this 10k Carrier might have almost worked and likewise had they ordered six to eight of them, not one she would have been more significant than she actually was as she could not be ingnored as a one off with the loophole plugged in the London treaty- everybody else would have wanted Cruiser Carriers as a result ( certainly the RN would as that was a post great war plan holed by Washington). The idea of the cruiser carrier working in a reconnaissance and/or fleet defence role was nothing new, that's what HMS Hermes was for, to test that idea for giving more flexible assets to distant stations. So Japan looking at the same idea make a lot of sense. The problem was that the double hangar raised the 'metacentric' height of the ship which made her very unstable, in anything other than a calm sea; such that you can't do air operations effectively under those circumstances. So as yourself the alternate history question, with those eight slightly smaller more stable aviation ships, capable extending the fleet scouting screen bubble OR whilst working with the cruisers OR acting as Escort carriers to do ASW operations OR as training vessels for new pilots. Does this overall help Japan in its war efforts from 1937 onwards?
I know most of their carriers started out with no above deck level superstructure, but wasn't such added at a later stage to all of them? This is tRICKy, and I admire your videos greatly, well researched too. Thank you!
& to this day, they (Japan), have "helicopter destroyers" (DDH). They look like WW II straight deck carriers -- on 10k tons. Now, they just had one ship come back out of refit -- as an aircraft carrier, using F-35 STO/VL fighter-bombers. Second ship is in refit to get the same modifications. Funny how history repeats itself.
The IJN would've gotten more use out of Ryujo as loaded exclusively with fighters, with the sole purpose of fleet defense, even to the point of training her pilots to prioritize defending other carriers over their home carrier.
That's actually what the Japanese did after Midway. Before Midway, their carrier divisions just consisted of two carriers, most of the time two fleet carriers. After Midway, they changed it so that a carrier division would have three carriers, two fleet carriers and a light carrier, with the light carrier mostly carrying fighters for fleet defense. Ryujo's air group at Eastern Solomons consisted of 24 fighters and nine torpedo bombers. Of course she couldn't carry out her defensive role in that battle, since she was split off from the other carriers to raid Henderson Field, but the other two carriers didn't get attacked in that battle anyway. (Besides two scout planes that narrowly missed Shokaku.) At the Santa Cruz Islands, the Zuiho was also mostly carrying fighters and this doctrine was still in place in the battle of the Philippine Sea in 1944. While the light carriers did retain a small number of torpedo bombers, the majority of their air group was fighters.
I am shocked she was not called a "Aircraft transport ship"... That should have put her more in a support role rather then a attack role and could have been removed from the treaty....
The switch from dive bombers to attack olanes was because of her rear elevator but you don’t really say why. The new Val did not have folding wings and didn’t fit. The new Kate was bigger and heavier overall but had folding wings and could use it.
The IJN should have just built her as a large "submarine tender" and incorporated her into her shadow fleet program, to be converted later on in 1936 after Japan abrogated from the Washington Naval Treaty.
The US Sec State strode in and highandedly dictated the terms of the treaty eventually agreed to at the first Washington Naval Conference. The threat was, if anybody didn't like it, the US would embark on a massive ship building program, to exceed the other Navies current & future ship inventories by at least two times. We just didn't want to make the sacrifice and everybody else was broke & owed US banks huge debts from the war. Oh, we made them pay it back in US dollars.
Given how innovative that the IJN was concerning their designs, this was a missed opportunity to use her as a CAP / interceptor specific unit, with strike aircraft centred on the heavy carriers.
Imagine Midway with IJN CAP recovery not causing delays in closing the flight decks to recovery / preparation of their balanced strike groups.
It would have been smarter, yeah.
At Midway wasn't the delay of the "strike planes" not CAP aircraft the downfall of the fleet? The strike craft went from loading bomb to unloading them for torps to bombs again?
I've always quite liked the Ryujou. Very unique in appearance, but with graceful hull lines mated to the towering hangers. After modifications, she was a fairly capable carrier!
I've always liked the IJN Junyo myself "Peregrine Falcon" but Japanese carriers in general like the Ryujo just look cool despite their purpose for war.
I’m surprised Japan even signed up to the London Naval Treaty given their dislike of limitations that were imposed.
They walked out of later talks.
They liked thay it limited the USA too
They got recognition as a "Great Naval Power", being listed above France & Italy. The first non-white country to be so recognized.
Early leaders of the Navy and government in early 1920s were peaceniks like rest of the world after the Great War. They saw what the limitations were for, either for save the Navy from itself (couldn't compete with USA) or through annual national budgets of the Japanese people as 8-8 program was bankruptingthe country. Warhawks used pressure through assassination or phasing out/ retirement of the older admirals, so later in mid 1930s the younger hotheads demanded a bigger Navy they got it.
They didn't have the money to get into a building race with the USA.
The ship did prove to be pretty useful for the IJN, providing some need cover during the Sino-Japanese war, and than proved to be one of the best second line carriers in the early war, only really being behind the Zuihos, which had been designed way after her.
Going by its earlier photos. The aircraft carrier does look very odd but still managed to do its job.
OT: The whole treaty dodging took on a new form after the London naval treaty with anything under 600 tons being exempt from counting as destroyers. Hence many nations, especially Germany, Italy and Japan, developed torpedo boats ostensibly (but never actually) under 600 tons which ranged from useless for combat operations (German type 1935 and 1937 types) to downright dangerous for the crews (Tomozuru incident). Only the italians got half way decent combat vessels out of this and even these were heavier than claimed
Great video Skynea. The Ryujo is my favorite Japanese carrier. Interesting design history, still provided valuable service to Imperial Japan.
Love your content
Your initial conclusion at 1:05 "of flawed but not a complete waste of space" over looks some important facts. Had Japan actually been "less ambitious" about having a large two tier hangar this 10k Carrier might have almost worked and likewise had they ordered six to eight of them, not one she would have been more significant than she actually was as she could not be ingnored as a one off with the loophole plugged in the London treaty- everybody else would have wanted Cruiser Carriers as a result ( certainly the RN would as that was a post great war plan holed by Washington).
The idea of the cruiser carrier working in a reconnaissance and/or fleet defence role was nothing new, that's what HMS Hermes was for, to test that idea for giving more flexible assets to distant stations. So Japan looking at the same idea make a lot of sense. The problem was that the double hangar raised the 'metacentric' height of the ship which made her very unstable, in anything other than a calm sea; such that you can't do air operations effectively under those circumstances.
So as yourself the alternate history question, with those eight slightly smaller more stable aviation ships, capable extending the fleet scouting screen bubble OR whilst working with the cruisers OR acting as Escort carriers to do ASW operations OR as training vessels for new pilots. Does this overall help Japan in its war efforts from 1937 onwards?
I know most of their carriers started out with no above deck level superstructure, but wasn't such added at a later stage to all of them? This is tRICKy, and I admire your videos greatly, well researched too. Thank you!
& to this day, they (Japan), have "helicopter destroyers" (DDH). They look like WW II straight deck carriers -- on 10k tons. Now, they just had one ship come back out of refit -- as an aircraft carrier, using F-35 STO/VL fighter-bombers. Second ship is in refit to get the same modifications. Funny how history repeats itself.
I like 'em weird, and Ryujo definitely fits.
The IJN would've gotten more use out of Ryujo as loaded exclusively with fighters, with the sole purpose of fleet defense, even to the point of training her pilots to prioritize defending other carriers over their home carrier.
That's actually what the Japanese did after Midway. Before Midway, their carrier divisions just consisted of two carriers, most of the time two fleet carriers. After Midway, they changed it so that a carrier division would have three carriers, two fleet carriers and a light carrier, with the light carrier mostly carrying fighters for fleet defense. Ryujo's air group at Eastern Solomons consisted of 24 fighters and nine torpedo bombers. Of course she couldn't carry out her defensive role in that battle, since she was split off from the other carriers to raid Henderson Field, but the other two carriers didn't get attacked in that battle anyway. (Besides two scout planes that narrowly missed Shokaku.)
At the Santa Cruz Islands, the Zuiho was also mostly carrying fighters and this doctrine was still in place in the battle of the Philippine Sea in 1944. While the light carriers did retain a small number of torpedo bombers, the majority of their air group was fighters.
The IJN did amazing things under incredible circumstances.
aMaZiNg
0:08 If that doesn’t look like the most top heavy thing that should just roll over in a slight cross wind, then I don’t know does.
Ryujo looked good.
better than either the British or US carriers of a similar size.
I also liked 29 knots laid down in 1929.
I'd like to see you do a comparison of how Ryujo and Ryuho stacked up against US light carriers.
Good stuff
I am shocked she was not called a "Aircraft transport ship"... That should have put her more in a support role rather then a attack role and could have been removed from the treaty....
The switch from dive bombers to attack olanes was because of her rear elevator but you don’t really say why. The new Val did not have folding wings and didn’t fit. The new Kate was bigger and heavier overall but had folding wings and could use it.
There is another later carrier that has a very similar name that us confused with this ship.
Ryuho, the dragon phoenix as opposed to Ryujo, the prancing dragon.
@katrinapaton5283 that's it. For some reason I couldn't remember. It wasn't a very successful ship.
interesting story...thx!
The IJN should have just built her as a large "submarine tender" and incorporated her into her shadow fleet program, to be converted later on in 1936 after Japan abrogated from the Washington Naval Treaty.
I'm an Aussie.
We had nothing. Nothing.
A crappy carrier is better than no carrier at all.
That's not a bad service record for a carrier that was originally intended to be the first of many loophole abusers.
The US Sec State strode in and highandedly dictated the terms of the treaty eventually agreed to at the first Washington Naval Conference.
The threat was, if anybody didn't like it, the US would embark on a massive ship building program, to exceed the other Navies current & future ship inventories by at least two times. We just didn't want to make the sacrifice and everybody else was broke & owed US banks huge debts from the war. Oh, we made them pay it back in US dollars.
👍🏻🏴
Archimedes Revenge
Top heavy rolls over easy.
Its not illegal if you don't think it is
Ralph Spring
Jerry Mokes
Noah Plains
Ronald Taft
*’ighly ellegal*