Ahh...you said the magic words that made it all click when you described the difference between the light density between the darks and flats. It makes sense that there needs to be a corresponding dark to the flat to create a ratio that can be applied to the darks and lights. THANKS!
@@AmyAstro It's like finally graduating with a degree in Physics, Engineering, and Software, all in one, having put in the effort and pain... You never mentioned your background prior to the Eclipse Experience (which got me started also, but near Casper, Wyoming!) I assume, like most of the "artists" of astrophotography, you started in the visual arts, and got a big head start in Photoshop, etc.. Personally my background is in Aerospace engineering. Imaging software and such is a bit of a learning curve for me..
@@MrStacaz99 Nothing that glamorous. Photography is my extreme hobby. I'm a technical engineer by degree. I specialize in instrumentation for a local engineering design firm. I just like being creative and making things.
Wow, I am a newby but thought i was getting a handle on things. But you just set me back to the beginning again. Calibration? Light flats? Whoa. I knew about taking some blacks to help the signal to noise ratio when stacking but the rest of this is new to me. I am lost. Again. Basically i know enough to be good and dangerous. Thank you for introducing this to me. Back to the beginning i go. Cool! I have 3 kitties too. And a big goofy dog. Be safe!
There is always a learning curve in astro. :) I did not use flat darks my first 2 years, so don't stress over it. Take things one step at a time. Yeah for furry friends.
Hi Ron, I saw a comment pop up today. For some reason it is not showing up here to reply to. I hope you see this. If you have and elecronic autofocuser you will know the actual focus number by looking at the fits information in the image. I use sequence generator pro and I can have it name my files with the focus number as part of the file number. If you are using a manual focuser you really will not know the focus value. In this case you will have to take flats after you complete each filter run. It takes longer, and not light friendly if you have others around you. You can take the dark flats at the end of the night. Just keep track of your flat exposure times. Best of luck.
It would be interesting for the TH-cam leadership in Astrophotography to put together a presentation, or list, that shows about the best images you can expect from a system under $500, under $1000, $2000, $5000, and $10,000. This could show possible elements for a system at each price point. The other half (or 90%) of what makes great images is the post-processing, which is a whole other topic, but not necessarily dependent on the equipment used. Just a thought. Sorry if I was gruff earlier, I was experiencing a learning curve... ;) I used to work as a consultant for high end audio systems, and there was the same paradigm, given what you have to spend, and the sound quality you can expect to get. I was very good at that...This new hobby has many similarities, but also a steep learning curve..
This hobby has it's frustrations for sure. I've thrown my hands up many times. I wish I started YT sooner and I could have shown you my first attempts. But then you might not follow me now. lol I'm in my 3rd year and 4th telescope to get where I want to be for this price point. Lots of trial, error and $$$.
Great vid but I think you grabbed the wrong calibrated folder 'cal' in ImageIntegration. Should have been the 'cal_2' folder :) Keep up the good work Amy
Also, anyone taking Darks needs to have a cooled camera, because temperature variations certainly happen over the course of a night, especially in dryer climates. I have learned that the hard way. Once you get to a certain level, you need certain equipment, and I think that the TH-camrs need to say that, and be honest about it.. AstroBackyard is a bit too into his own galactic and nebulous fantasies...There is a fine line between glorified shots, slick editing, and actual useful information to those who would be receptive and needing it.
Yes a cooled camera really ups the game and gives you so much flexibility. My club guys steered me that way with my first astro camera. Best purchase. We all start with lower cost equipment. If we want to improve the quality sometimes it will cost a bit more. To me if you are going to spend the time taking the images and processing the image, maybe you should do it with the best equipment your budget will allow. I spent so much money thinking a certain item would get me where I wanted only to be disappointed. Every budget is different. A great tool is cloudy nights market place. I've traded a bunch of equipment there as I was learning what I needed to accomplish what I wanted. Clear skies! Thank you for the comments.
If anything uncooled sensors need more dark frames than a cooled one, because they have much higher thermal noise. It's true cooled systems have less noise, but still have things like amp glow to worry about. Your goal is to remove all the erroneous data from your images. You can't maintain a specific temp on an uncooled sensor as easily, but it doesn't have to be perfect. A few degrees either way is fine.
Hello fellow ancient photons catcher! Thanks for this explanation. Endeed, I found that adding flats alone adds some noise to the image. It's cloudy night here, the camera is already cooling so I'm off to my roof to try your method :)
Hi Amy,great job as usual,i was wonder if it possible to have a video about how to set up EqMod,i know there is an old tutorial but will be nice to have a fresh new one:)Thx
Amy this was very helpful. Thank you. Can you use flat darks with the Weighted Batch Preprocessing script in Pixinsight? Or does that bring things to a new level of complexity?
Amy, another great job...again. I’m a newbie, and so very much love the detail you put into explaining pixinsight techniques. I wanted to ask you if you have any experience with Astro Pixel Processor. If so, what are your thoughts on it. Reason I ask is although I’ve been watching your videos for learning, I’ve hesitated in actually shelling out 250 bucks for the PI. Then I came across the less expensive processing tool , APP. Now I’m tempted on going that route just because of the lower cost. Thanks 🙏 and keep the great videos coming.
I have not used APP beyond the trial. At that point there were not many videos on it for me to learn it. Check out the TH-cam Channel for Roswell Astronomy. He uses APP.
Thanks Amy. Another great video. I'm learning so much. A quick question regarding taking flats. I notice that you used a piece of t-shirt cloth as well as a light panel. How necessary is the t-shirt? Isn't the panel defuse enough?
I use the T-shirt to help even out the led panel. I've seen some panels with a subtle flicker on them. Or even a bright spot. Plus I scratched my led panel so this erased my clumsiness.
If you are automating your Flats between the filters, don't you have to go out and manually place your light box over the objective and then remove it to continue with the sequence? How do people fully automate Flats then? Is there some sort of robotic arm that swings the light box over the front of the telescope? Thanks! BTW, you have some of the best astrophotography instructionals on TH-cam, especially the post-processing, which is a weak point for many people, and produces about 95% of the final image quality.
Yes, I do manually place the LED panel and remove it when needed mid sequence. There are robotic type flat panels for a price. Unless you are using a remote observatory the price may outweigh the value of it. At this moment I am completely portable and I set up every time I go out. Thank you for the compliment. Like everyone I am still learning, but enjoying all of it.
Amy, thank you for this informative video! I never really had to take flats much since my scope really didn't exhibit vignetting and I'm a fanatic about keeping things clean but I recently got a RASA and now flats "are a thing" with me so thanks for some info on a topic I'm digging into. I've also heard other people talk about processing flats with Bias frames as well, so now you've got flats that are being processed two different ways (with darks like you say and bias). Is there any kind of order to do these? Perhaps this is a duplication of effort since bias frames are essentially "instant darks" anyway? What is your opinion?
When I first started I would use the bias frames to calibrate with. Now I skip that part. They did not add any value. Bias was more of an issue with the older cameras. My darks are just integrated now, no calibration. The flat are calibrated with the Dark Flats. Then my images are calibrated with the master dark and the master flat. Clear as mud right? I need to update the calibration video process.
Hey, I was wondering what the difference is between darks and dark flats ? isn't it the same as taking darks ? i.e covering your scope and resetting the lights ?
When are you applying your MasterBias? Since I see you are using ZWO cameras as I do I should mention that zwo does not recommend appying MasterBias in the Light Calibration step. Since I began following their recommendation my photos are much cleaner and I have no problems with creating working flats nor glow artifacts. . See: astronomy-imaging-camera.com/tutorials/what-is-amp-glow.html
That isn't correct. Of course your panel will be out of focus, but it isn't about being in focus. It is about capturing the defects in your optical train. Stuff like dust motes will shift scale and disappear at a different focus. Moving your focus changes the position of the sensor in relation to your OTA, hence changing the image itself. Sure it might be a minor change, but the goal should be to have a calibrated frame that correctly accounts for the reality of your entire optical train when you take your light frames. Darks and bias frames are about capturing defects of your camera sensor, they should not be connected to the optical train when they are made.
@@michaell1473 I still don't agree, all the dust particles which are visible in your subs without flats are positioned before the focuser (so at the camera end of the focuser). So the distance in relation to these particles and the sensor will not change when you alter the focus position. Dust on the main lens (e.g. of an APO) or mirrors (on other types of scopes) are not visible because due to the distance of these particles in relation to the sensor they will be sooooo out of focus that they are not visible anymore... Give it a try yourself and see (that is always the best way to convince people...
![จบจนได้ ! | Black Myth: Wukong #007 [ตอนจบ?]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/DSqvWndF0sw/mqdefault.jpg)
Great video, clear as water ! And so happy to see a woman in astrophotography !
Thank you and Welcome!!
Ahh...you said the magic words that made it all click when you described the difference between the light density between the darks and flats. It makes sense that there needs to be a corresponding dark to the flat to create a ratio that can be applied to the darks and lights. THANKS!
So happy to help.
FINALLY! A good explanation of Dark Flats! I understood the theory but this is the first video to explain the process. Thanks!
Thank you! Glad tyou liked it!
Amy, thank you for this wonderful detailed information since nobody talks about them. thank you
Always happy to help.
I watched it once, now I'm going to get my SkyFlats going and compare the two results. I'll definitely watch this again. Well done.
Best of luck. You see the biggest improvement in the narrow band area with the longer exposure flats.
It takes a lot of courage to "put yourself out there" on TH-cam. I certainly appreciate all that you have put into your videos.. Thank you.
Thank you so much! It is definitely different.
Atrophotography seems to be very complicated and time consuming. This is not a job for everyone. Thanks for the useful instructions!
It is definitely both, but very satisfying when it all comes together.
@@AmyAstro It's like finally graduating with a degree in Physics, Engineering, and Software, all in one, having put in the effort and pain... You never mentioned your background prior to the Eclipse Experience (which got me started also, but near Casper, Wyoming!) I assume, like most of the "artists" of astrophotography, you started in the visual arts, and got a big head start in Photoshop, etc.. Personally my background is in Aerospace engineering. Imaging software and such is a bit of a learning curve for me..
@@MrStacaz99 Nothing that glamorous. Photography is my extreme hobby. I'm a technical engineer by degree. I specialize in instrumentation for a local engineering design firm. I just like being creative and making things.
Great video :0) I love getting the best out of calibration because it makes my pics pop. Thanks for all your help x
Happy to help!
Thanks Amy, best explanation of Flatdarks, darkflats or whatever they are called. 😊
Thanks Matt!
Wow, I am a newby but thought i was getting a handle on things. But you just set me back to the beginning again. Calibration? Light flats? Whoa. I knew about taking some blacks to help the signal to noise ratio when stacking but the rest of this is new to me. I am lost. Again. Basically i know enough to be good and dangerous. Thank you for introducing this to me. Back to the beginning i go. Cool! I have 3 kitties too. And a big goofy dog. Be safe!
There is always a learning curve in astro. :) I did not use flat darks my first 2 years, so don't stress over it. Take things one step at a time. Yeah for furry friends.
Hi Ron, I saw a comment pop up today. For some reason it is not showing up here to reply to. I hope you see this. If you have and elecronic autofocuser you will know the actual focus number by looking at the fits information in the image. I use sequence generator pro and I can have it name my files with the focus number as part of the file number. If you are using a manual focuser you really will not know the focus value. In this case you will have to take flats after you complete each filter run. It takes longer, and not light friendly if you have others around you. You can take the dark flats at the end of the night. Just keep track of your flat exposure times. Best of luck.
Great video and really informative! I'm heading out to shoot tonight and I'll take some and see how they work! Thanks, Amy!
Good luck!!!
Thanks Amy. Great job.
Thank you!
It would be interesting for the TH-cam leadership in Astrophotography to put together a presentation, or list, that shows about the best images you can expect from a system under $500, under $1000, $2000, $5000, and $10,000. This could show possible elements for a system at each price point. The other half (or 90%) of what makes great images is the post-processing, which is a whole other topic, but not necessarily dependent on the equipment used. Just a thought. Sorry if I was gruff earlier, I was experiencing a learning curve... ;) I used to work as a consultant for high end audio systems, and there was the same paradigm, given what you have to spend, and the sound quality you can expect to get. I was very good at that...This new hobby has many similarities, but also a steep learning curve..
This hobby has it's frustrations for sure. I've thrown my hands up many times. I wish I started YT sooner and I could have shown you my first attempts. But then you might not follow me now. lol I'm in my 3rd year and 4th telescope to get where I want to be for this price point. Lots of trial, error and $$$.
This video is megamegamega helpful
Thank you
Amy Astro Good video Amy! I have a ASI1600MM Cooled and use DarkFlats all the time - no bias. Bias with some ZWO cameras don't work very well.
Yes I agree about the bias. I gave up on those in the last couple months. Dark Flats are a game changer with narrowband.
So what i am hearing is to not use bias frames if taking dark flats, is that correct?
Tim Myers yes bias are not necessary anymore. That has more to do with the new astro cameras from what I understand.
Great vid but I think you grabbed the wrong calibrated folder 'cal' in ImageIntegration. Should have been the 'cal_2' folder :) Keep up the good work Amy
yeah, sleight of hand there. lol I cancelled the process going to cal2 to save time making the video. A+ for paying attention. lol
Also, anyone taking Darks needs to have a cooled camera, because temperature variations certainly happen over the course of a night, especially in dryer climates. I have learned that the hard way. Once you get to a certain level, you need certain equipment, and I think that the TH-camrs need to say that, and be honest about it.. AstroBackyard is a bit too into his own galactic and nebulous fantasies...There is a fine line between glorified shots, slick editing, and actual useful information to those who would be receptive and needing it.
Yes a cooled camera really ups the game and gives you so much flexibility. My club guys steered me that way with my first astro camera. Best purchase. We all start with lower cost equipment. If we want to improve the quality sometimes it will cost a bit more. To me if you are going to spend the time taking the images and processing the image, maybe you should do it with the best equipment your budget will allow. I spent so much money thinking a certain item would get me where I wanted only to be disappointed. Every budget is different. A great tool is cloudy nights market place. I've traded a bunch of equipment there as I was learning what I needed to accomplish what I wanted. Clear skies! Thank you for the comments.
@@AmyAstro I have been on Cloudy Nights for a couple years, and all the most desirable equipment has already been taken and not for sale... LOL
MrStacaz99 timing is everything.
If anything uncooled sensors need more dark frames than a cooled one, because they have much higher thermal noise. It's true cooled systems have less noise, but still have things like amp glow to worry about. Your goal is to remove all the erroneous data from your images. You can't maintain a specific temp on an uncooled sensor as easily, but it doesn't have to be perfect. A few degrees either way is fine.
Hello fellow ancient photons catcher!
Thanks for this explanation.
Endeed, I found that adding flats alone adds some noise to the image.
It's cloudy night here, the camera is already cooling so I'm off to my roof to try your method :)
Best of luck!!! Catch those photons!!!
Hi Amy,great job as usual,i was wonder if it possible to have a video about how to set up EqMod,i know there is an old tutorial but will be nice to have a fresh new one:)Thx
Sure, just a basic tour?
Yep that will be good👍
Amy this was very helpful. Thank you. Can you use flat darks with the Weighted Batch Preprocessing script in Pixinsight? Or does that bring things to a new level of complexity?
In the recent update with pixinsight, something was changed with the ssweight that I have not figured out yet. :(
Amy, another great job...again. I’m a newbie, and so very much love the detail you put into explaining pixinsight techniques. I wanted to ask you if you have any experience with Astro Pixel Processor. If so, what are your thoughts on it. Reason I ask is although I’ve been watching your videos for learning, I’ve hesitated in actually shelling out 250 bucks for the PI. Then I came across the less expensive processing tool , APP. Now I’m tempted on going that route just because of the lower cost. Thanks 🙏 and keep the great videos coming.
I have not used APP beyond the trial. At that point there were not many videos on it for me to learn it. Check out the TH-cam Channel for Roswell Astronomy. He uses APP.
Thanks Amy. Another great video. I'm learning so much. A quick question regarding taking flats. I notice that you used a piece of t-shirt cloth as well as a light panel. How necessary is the t-shirt? Isn't the panel defuse enough?
I use the T-shirt to help even out the led panel. I've seen some panels with a subtle flicker on them. Or even a bright spot. Plus I scratched my led panel so this erased my clumsiness.
@@AmyAstro thanks. I've ordered my light panel and planning to use your ideas to create my flats. Keep up the good work.
David Misisco excellent. It is a huge help.
If you are automating your Flats between the filters, don't you have to go out and manually place your light box over the objective and then remove it to continue with the sequence? How do people fully automate Flats then? Is there some sort of robotic arm that swings the light box over the front of the telescope? Thanks! BTW, you have some of the best astrophotography instructionals on TH-cam, especially the post-processing, which is a weak point for many people, and produces about 95% of the final image quality.
Yes, I do manually place the LED panel and remove it when needed mid sequence. There are robotic type flat panels for a price. Unless you are using a remote observatory the price may outweigh the value of it. At this moment I am completely portable and I set up every time I go out. Thank you for the compliment. Like everyone I am still learning, but enjoying all of it.
Hello Amy, again a great video thanks, a question, do you do your flats during the day or right after your recordings at night
Regards Jose
I'm lazy and do all the flats later in the morning. Typically I do them in the house unless I have a 2 night window out.
Amy, thank you for this informative video! I never really had to take flats much since my scope really didn't exhibit vignetting and I'm a fanatic about keeping things clean but I recently got a RASA and now flats "are a thing" with me so thanks for some info on a topic I'm digging into. I've also heard other people talk about processing flats with Bias frames as well, so now you've got flats that are being processed two different ways (with darks like you say and bias). Is there any kind of order to do these? Perhaps this is a duplication of effort since bias frames are essentially "instant darks" anyway? What is your opinion?
When I first started I would use the bias frames to calibrate with. Now I skip that part. They did not add any value. Bias was more of an issue with the older cameras. My darks are just integrated now, no calibration. The flat are calibrated with the Dark Flats. Then my images are calibrated with the master dark and the master flat. Clear as mud right? I need to update the calibration video process.
So does this apply for OSC cameras as well?
Yes it does.
Hey, I was wondering what the difference is between darks and dark flats ? isn't it the same as taking darks ? i.e covering your scope and resetting the lights ?
Yes, same concept. Cover your scope. The difference is the exposure time. The darks match your actual image. The dark flats exposure match the flats.
@@AmyAstro Again, thank you for your input and help :)
@@AmyAstro Please keep making these tutorials. They are very helpful
CR thank you. I will do my best.
When are you applying your MasterBias? Since I see you are using ZWO cameras as I do I should mention that zwo does not recommend appying MasterBias in the Light Calibration step. Since I began following their recommendation my photos are much cleaner and I have no problems with creating working flats nor glow artifacts. . See: astronomy-imaging-camera.com/tutorials/what-is-amp-glow.html
Yes, I have eliminated the bias step lately and I do see an improvement.
@Michael Covington Yes, that is how I understand it. I no longer use bias in my processing.
I don't believe setting your focus point adds anything, you do need stuff to be out of focus form your flats...
Can you explain why? I've always followed the focus points. I honestly have not found anyone saying either way. Your input would be appreciated.
@@AmyAstro because your flatpanel is so nearby it will be out of focus regardless whatever focal point you would set your focuser on...
RobboRob67 thank you. That makes sense. I will give it a try.
That isn't correct. Of course your panel will be out of focus, but it isn't about being in focus. It is about capturing the defects in your optical train. Stuff like dust motes will shift scale and disappear at a different focus. Moving your focus changes the position of the sensor in relation to your OTA, hence changing the image itself. Sure it might be a minor change, but the goal should be to have a calibrated frame that correctly accounts for the reality of your entire optical train when you take your light frames. Darks and bias frames are about capturing defects of your camera sensor, they should not be connected to the optical train when they are made.
@@michaell1473 I still don't agree, all the dust particles which are visible in your subs without flats are positioned before the focuser (so at the camera end of the focuser). So the distance in relation to these particles and the sensor will not change when you alter the focus position. Dust on the main lens (e.g. of an APO) or mirrors (on other types of scopes) are not visible because due to the distance of these particles in relation to the sensor they will be sooooo out of focus that they are not visible anymore...
Give it a try yourself and see (that is always the best way to convince people...