From what I've learned, she was a certified flight instructor, but sounded more like student here. I've been around aviation for quite some time, but never heard of anyone being an instructor at age like this. I know it doesn't take much to become one, but this accident just proves the requirements should be way higher. Still feel bad for the young lady. May she rest in peace and the student recovers well.
@@marcomm7828I was an instructor at 21. It’s perfectly fine and it’s how the majority of pilots in the USA started their flying career. The requirements are fine and age has zero to do with it.
yeah, I've known a few at around 25, but did prefer the experienced ones personally. It just appears to me, she kinda panicked in this distress situation, but who knows. I don't wanna play smart here, it's just how I feel about it..
Valentina was my instructor for my discovery flight back in December of 2022. She created an unforgettable experience and I have so much admiration in my heart for her. She was the sweetest woman and made sure I was comfortable while still having a fun time. Thoughts and prayers to all of her loved ones and those affected. Rest in peace pretty girl
April 11, 2011. My Navajo went down at KRIC. I survived with 65% burns, 2 amputated fingers, numerous broken bones, a completely destroyed and rebuilt nose, and 68 total surgeries (so far) for skin grafts, tissue reconstruction, and laser scar revision. I was on a fentanyl drip in a medically induced coma for over a month. NEVER take any day for granted. Each day we have is a gift. God bless.
I was a MEI with more than 250 hours of FT in a Seminole. If the engine dies on final, the plane is landing, period. That machine doesn't safely fly with one engine. Go around isn't an option.
Yup. I did all my multi rating in a Seminole. On my multi commercial checkride (which incorporated a multi instrument ride as well), I had to do a DME arc with one engine shut down (not just feathered). I could not for the life of me get it started again, I knew landing on one engine was a "you get one chance" deal - no going around. On the way back to the airport, which took about ten minutes, I did everything to get that engine going again, and finally got it to kick over and start, not long before I arrived in the pattern. Big sigh of relief!
I fly a baron and yeah priority is to land it at all cost, if I'm truly out of runway you need to know that before youre too low and if im going around though it's going to be straight out for like 10 miles so I can get some altitude before I turn back.
I'm trying to understand why she mentioned souls on board so soon instead of focussing on flying the plane. Is doing so part of that flight school's training?
That went bad extremely quickly. As a former instructor, I have difficulty understanding how the plane couldn’t land safely- on either runway or anywhere on the airport- from a position on short final. Was she too high or was the instructor confused by something the controller said? Was the student switched from a go around mode to a landing mode at last second? In any event, fly the airplane first. and stop talking to ATC until the aircraft is stable.Very sad scenario. RIP.
that is a lot of quarterbacking for a crash that just occurred a couple of days ago. let the investigators do their job. rip to the person who died and get well to the person who is in hospital.
My guess will be that the instructor took the controls at some point and flew the aircraft first. She then decided by herself to continue to communicate. Also it could be possible they started first the go around but decided to lad instead, but being too high. This could explain the request for another runway. We will have to wait for the final report. But it already shows how fast this can go south.
With a proprietary FAA-approved callsign, they're clearly a training operation. They must have been doing the one-engine-inoperative ILS approach for the pilot's Comm'l Multi-engine rating. Training in twins requires a high degree of safety awareness and risk-management, and a highly skilled instructor. Terrible sad mishap. Terrible. I expect a blancolirio brief on this accident soon.
Valentina was an incredible instructor, about to become a 4 bar instructor and I’m 100% sure she would’ve landed the aircraft if the scenario presented here was accurate but it isn’t, the comms are delayed and she was actually way closer to the middle of the runway when she lost the right engine. Everybody no matter how good u think you are has a shock moment (around 10 secs) in unexpected scenarios like this one, she chose to turn right and I’m sure she had a reason for it unfortunately 1 mistake is enough for everything to go south and that turn in combination with a slight pitch caused the spin. It’s easy to judge when you are not the one in her position but let’s have some respect for the family.
It seemed obvious to me that they must’ve been too high to make the runway. Losing the engine halfway down the runway while at 500 feet and moving fast isn’t a good situation. Lose it at minimums sure go straight ahead. In the climb after a possibly early missed? Your options aren’t so clear cut anymore.
@@gabrielakukolkaraoke4862 Mi más sentido pésame, siempre recordaré a Vale como la increíble y linda persona que fue, yo era su roommate desde que llegue hace más de 1 año y solo tengo buenos recuerdos con ella, a los meses de llegar nos fuimos al downtown de fort pierce y me mostró el centro de la ciudad, tomamos fotos (me mostró su escultura favorita de la cual tengo fotos de ese día) y me contó que su papa a penas llegó ella por acá, le dibujo un mapa de como movilizarse dentro de fort pierce, nos reímos y le dije que eso no lo hace cualquier papa, ayer me vi con los familiares en la casa pero lamentablemente no supe como decirles cuanto lamentaba su perdida, les mando un fuerte abrazo a todos y sepan que Vale era muy querida por aquí y no será olvidada, cuídense mucho.
@@gabrielakukolkaraoke4862 Mi más sentido pésame, siempre recordaré a Vale como la increíble y linda persona que fue, yo era su roommate desde que llegue hace más de 1 año y solo tengo buenos recuerdos con ella, a los meses de llegar nos fuimos al downtown de fort pierce y me mostró el centro de la ciudad, tomamos fotos (me mostró su escultura favorita de la cual tengo fotos de ese día) y me contó que su papa a penas llegó ella por acá, le dibujo un mapa de como movilizarse dentro de fort pierce, nos reímos y le dije que eso no lo hace cualquier papa, ayer me vi con los familiares en la casa pero lamentablemente no supe como decirles cuanto lamentaba su perdida, les mando un fuerte abrazo a todos y sepan que Vale era muy querida por aquí y no será olvidada, cuídense mucho.
No disrespect to Valentina, but a multi instructor (as any multi pilot) has to expect an engine failure at any time. It shouldn't take ten seconds to start to take action.
This is so very sad. A terrible place to lose an engine in an aircraft that simply doesn’t fly on one. Two lessons/reminders for the rest of us to possibly take away from this tragedy are: 1) to remember that in an emergency all surfaces are now “runways”; grass, taxiways, and open areas are all to be considered as viable landing areas so don’t fixate on the actual runway, 2) and do whatever it takes to NOT stall spin; always fly through the crash as controlled and level as possible.
Former ME CFI. That looked like a miss approach single engine actual. She tried to land on runway 14 but overshot it. Then on the single engine go around she let it VMC roll and down it went.
I tried this in a simulator. The best I could do was accelerate and dive to get cleaned up and then limp along. If I tried anything more aggressive I just spun towards the dead engine. I fear that the simulations these days are much more accurate than they used to be. So their only chance really was to power off the good engine and land straight ahead. At least crash upright. But I don't know what altitude they were at. Hopefully Blancolirio will analyze this crash.
First two things, full pwr good engine, opposite rudder to counter, push yoke forward get nose down and DO NOT clean up the plane if you have any flaps and gear out, your asking for a stall spin and thats exactly what flight path lopks like along with rapid loas of speed combined with possibly the student (female) on controls witj cfi at same time, not good in any way.
@08turboSS And you killed them. Because you jammed in full power before accelerating above Vmc. So you didn't have the rudder authority, and you yawed due to asymmetric thrust, spun from low altitude, and crashed before you could even get the power off and try to recover from your error.
@@08turboSS LOL.. DO NOT CLEAN UP THE AIRPLANE? How the hell will you not go down with all that drag of flaps and gear? Dont bullshit us. YOU HAVE TO CLEAN FLAPS AND GEAR TOO OR WONT CLIMB.
In any twin - that becomes single - it really is a glider. A really crap glider. If you lose an engine, your hands are on the throttles for a freaking reason. Close them both, pick a spot, and pray you survive. Crashing right side up is a whole lot better than crashing nose down inverted.
@@cageordiewhen you do practice approaches - you always fly it above VYSE and the Seminole VMC is above stall speed so what are you even on about? Do you think they're flying an Aerostar or something? I have a lot of hours in Piper twins, including the Seminole. That's hogwash what you just asserted. It might apply in a 310, Baron, whatever. But certainly not if you fly approaches properly. All aircraft you fly the approach above VMC or at VYSE in case of a failure, so you can make it to the ground on the one remaining. In some light twins, you do a go around --- highly unusual to be able to do so. We had a Seneca with a Robertson STOL kit that was an exception to the single engine = crashing soon rule. That's the only light twin I've flown that would legitimately fly on one. And it was because (yes, in the STC as well) of the STOL kit. I loved that plane. If I could still have it today, I would. So easy to fly well! You always clean up the airplane AS you smoothly apply power. If possible, keep the descent going until it's clean so it cleans up even faster. If it won't do a go around - full flaps, idle, and dive for whatever runway or field is ahead. I don't care. That's more survivable than stalling on one engine.
Sure thing, by so many aviation accidents in the past year. I'm in Kissimmee, Florida near the home of "Crazy Horse- P-51 Mustang." It's been a heartbreaking 2 years in general aviation for this state.
Atc and pilot here. Lot's of training mixed with a lot of established ga, with a lot of commercial traffic. Flying cross country is like space invaders.
This flight school seriously needs investigated.. two fatal crashes in 6month span WITH CFIs onboard… Why on earth would you attempt to go around single engine in a Semiole??????????? At ATP we taught if you lose an engine in the PA44, you LAND at all costs straight ahead! No turning!! Its literally safer to bust minimuns and attempt to land than it is to go around single engine in a seminole… RIP😔
"Landing at all costs" is precisely what was attempted here, and is precisely WHY the crash. While counterintuitive, clawing for altitude gain and doing the full go-around would have been a better idea. If _simulated_ single engine failure at the moment equals go-round, _so does a real failure._ Unless the GOOD engine failed, and they were now gliding?
@@xheralt what are you talking about? Low to to the ground in a seminole, land straight ahead. What went wrong is she tried to turn low to the ground (PROBABLY into the bad engine making things even worse) on a single engine and land on 14 when she was already lined up with 10R! Should have landed on 10R.. even if it meant land long. I really hope an actual failure happened and this wasnt all apart of a simulated failure…
@@xxhockeymaster03xx I agree 100% and I am sick of all these phony virtue signalers who feign wringing their hands and gnashing their teeth when these people make hideous decisions and auger-in; they know nothing of the A/Cs performance and have next to no REAL WORLD flying experience. This is glaring to me, just as it was to you. People are flying today and being by trained by people who do not have the requisite body of knowledge to be at the controls of and aircraft and especially should not be instructing people on learning to fly an aircraft. Just look at the pilots in the TH-cam wonderland, that speaks for itself. Also, the only mishap debrief I am inclined to listen to, is Dan Gryder. Like his personality or not, he is not going to sugarcoat it, nor be afraid to speculate on the cause of the mishap for fear of offending the snowflakes in the audience. This is the court of public opinion, not a court of law. We are entitled to share our opinion, especially when we may have a little more real world experience flying the world than many of these content creators or virtue signaler.
@@xxhockeymaster03xx This....put it down even if you end up on the grass past the end of the runway, wheels up and even hitting the fence after skidding. If she was at Vref on final and had enough power to make that turn, she could have slammed it in on 10R. She may have had it in her mind to save the airplane and land it.
I only have 13 hours of multi time but form I learned that if you have a dead engine in the landing configuration that thing is not climbing, you have no othe option but to put it on the ground. My guess is that they lost their right engine, tried to climb, got too slow, and entered a Vmc roll at a very low altitude. Rest in peace to the pilot who passed away
Con tren abajo y un motor muerto es imposible si pierdes la mínima velocidad de control poder ir al aire,girar y ascender. Simplemente sigue recto sin potencia y aterriza adelante donde sea. Es así?
Really confused how a flight with an instructor could crash a small twin when right over top of an airport with runways in every direction. All power off, put it down wherever an open space exists, grass, pavement, doesn't matter. Don't stall and spin at 100 feet. Sad to see.
She declared the emergency before the go around. She used the memory items we are taught at my school and the ACS. “Gear up, flaps up, full prop, power, mixture, etc” and when you’re this low, she should have idled the engines and landed straight in but she already lost directional control banking towards the inop engine (on the right) which is why she made an attempt to land on 14
@@hillarynicole5089 Spent too much time worrying about communicating, trying to declare an emergency, worrying about souls on board and how much fuel left... worst stuff to be focusing on during a high stress and immediate situation. There was no presence of mind about what to do during an emergency before beginning the approach, something that should always be briefed or already thought of in the past. There must be some training about how marginal a PA44 is on single engine, especially in a go-around? it's not a 737.
This is so sad to hear. I lived in Vero S just north of Fort Pierce, and I knew of several pilots who flew to and from both air fields. My heart goes out to those involved and their families.
There must be security cameras footage of the last few seconds of this accident. I’m surprised that nothing additional has been published in two weeks. Also waiting to hear the accounts as related by the survivor student.
Same thing, same day, in Truckee Nevada, only, there they had snow, ice, 1/2 mile visibility, and mountains, and a non-precision localizer missed approach. Both in NV perished.
@@xxhockeymaster03xx Unless my charts are hopelessly out of date, KTRK has 3 RNAVs, no LOC/ILS at all. 14.5deg offset, ouch. Certainly non-precision at least.
@@davidbeattie1366 thats not the point. He initially said “non-precision ILS”. He corrected it to say “non-precision localizer” after i pointed that mistake out. There is no such thing as a “non precision ILS”.
Sad that aviation in the USA attracts racist, misogynist xenophobes who believe that only WHITE, MALE Americans can fly airplanes. They are proven wrong thousands of times a day when foreign pilots safely aviate around the world. As far as accents are concerned, I hope these twits don’t ever fly overseas where everyone has an accent. Their head may just burst at the challenge.
Guessing at this point, but maybe lost the right engine. Then stalled the right wing when they tried to turn to 14. Whatever they did was obviously too abrupt for the aircraft and they came down uncontrolled.
I think you may be on to something. There's a panicked "635" comm at about 02:32 that I was trying to make sense of. I think it happens just as 643 turns right, so what we hear might be his reaction to seeing the plane flipping around after the wing stall. It might also explain why the plane crashed with the gear side up.
These other pilots need to listen to what's going on before keying up their mics! Talk about complete lack of situational awareness. 1. When someone declares an emergency, you open your ears and don't step on them! 2. When you're approaching an airspace, don't just dial up the freq and blab. Listen for a bit first!
@@FlyingNDriving She was cleared for the Option, meaning she was cleared to land already. The problem was trying to return to the pattern. The Seminole with the gear down will not climb on a single engine, so she needed to use the remaining runway of 10R, and just use the grass, the fence and the vegetation ahead. Fortunately at that airport, there are no buildings after the fence...
Many of the comments have been about immigrants and language and some people showing their colors. But the issue is not about accents and immigrants, it is about the need and requirement for clear and concise language between pilots and Controllers...and that is not negotiable. Demanding that in no way is discriminatory against any citizen's origin, it is about safety in a complex three-dimensional world that is getting more and more crowded. Come on people!
agree its not about accents or immigrants whatsoever. too many racist sheep these days, not enough self-initiated thought - racist groupthink. if problems ARE being caused by communication breakdowns between english-first and non-english-first speakers, then the problem lies with the regulations, standards, and efficacy of the safety protocols that must be in place to curb those potential communication barriers. fucking obviously. the problem certainly does not lie in non-english-language speakers simply existing as pilots. i cannot with people.
You can't have clear and concise communication if someone has an undecipherable accent and poor English language skills. By the way most these foreign students are here on student/work visas, not immigrant visas.
I’m was immigrant child and used to be a school teacher in a predominantly immigrant school as a a grown up. One of the stupidest things I keep seeing is monolingual Americans thinking that shouting the same words louder will help someone understand. They’re just ignorant and xenophobic.
@@kewkabe aviation English is a highly specialized version of English that is designed to specifically mitigate differences in accents and dialect. Everyone one these highly motivated individuals has to pass ICAO English proficiency tests. You don’t have to have a beer with them but you also don’t have to be a nationalistic prick.
@@kewkabe The unclear communications seems to mirror the lack of flying capabilities. Given they declared an emergency, they sure weren't flying like one.
Another sad story. It is really frustrating when there is an "instructor" involved in an accident. Other things I noticed were the poor radio communications skills all around except for the controller.
I think we shouldn't jump to conclusions about the instructor just based on what we know at this point. There could have been something terribly wrong with the plane. Or the student might have gotten scared and pulled up all of a sudden causing a stall.
@@cfm1337 your job as a controller is to stay calm in situations like this, if you can handle it don’t become a controller, errors like that in a big airport could cause major issues
@@a_goblue2023 You can stay calm and still slip up by saying the wrong number for two very similar names. Especially when one of them is so in your mind due to a crash. And communication works two ways, you're simultaneously calling the pilots incompetent if they did not realize the controller's MINOR error and correct it. Everyone involved worked through this slip up seamlessly, and you're here calling for them to be robots.
I am a former glider pilot, so not as cued into communication protocol as many commenting might be, but I wonder if they could have declared an emergency sooner so the Tower could have handled things differently? And also the nature of the problem. But it is unclear to me when the emergency surfaced.
Truth is that is little ATC can do other than clearing up the airspace around you and maybe providing clearances for approach and landing. It's up to the pilot to fly the plane and make a safe landing. In extreme emergencies you don't even have to waste time and energy with comms. You just focus on landing the plane and do the explaining later. In this particular case they were so close to the runaway that is extremely shocking and sad to see how it all ended...
@@BlueSkyUp_EU Once you have called MAYDAY it's all up to you, ATC can give you help, but you don't need clearance to do anything. Even a military airfield will allow you to land once you say the three magic words. Very few pilots get that in the US. Listen to the Thompson 757 MAYDAY at Manchester, the pilot doesn't ask for directions he tells ATC what he's doing, because that was an ex RAF pilot and he knows how this works. UK ATC are very accommodating too. I've only ever heard one airport try to turn away an emergency and that controller chose the wrong person. That was Scott Purdue in a B-25 at Las Vegas McCarran. th-cam.com/video/F8fj9VoH5SA/w-d-xo.html
Great post Christian. So sorry for what happened 😪 Eng fail right when you add power to do a missed app, is THE worst thing in a low powered twin. May Valentina rest in peace 😪 And to the keyboard warriors - 2000 hours as a MEI..and another 16k in easy overpowered airplanes .
Not sure what ATC could've handled differently, to be honest. The announcement of the emergency wasn't really the issue so much as handling the aircraft. Flying one-engine in a light twin like the semi at low speed is a pretty critical situation and regardless of how soon the ATC was made aware of the emergency, the pilot can land and discuss it later.
I sometimes wonder if the ATCs are conducting a contest on how fast and how garbled they can communicate vital information. You would think clarity would come first. On some of these recordings you get a concise and easily understandable radio call and on a lot you get what sounds like a burst of static. Are they trying to confuse?
I've replayed this flight over twenty times on Flightradar24.. She was at 50ft crossing the threshold of RW14, at 68kts heading east. She then gradually turned south, holding altitude at 25ft. Then quickly descended towards RW14 but crossed it at a right angle and heading towards some structures. One appears to be a restaurant. Now she's showing zero altitude but at 60kts and turning sharply right (north) and avoiding buildings but barely slowing down until the plane apparently flipped. The pictures show the landing gear lowered. I believe that if they hadn't flipped we'd be telling a different story.
Sad that this comment section has devolved by people who think their ancestors lived here 400 years ago and anyone with an “accent” isnt allowed to be here.
Do you not think it is a fair question to determine if language was an issue in this accident cause it sounded like it? What does that have to do with hating anyone?
@@jamesa5720 yeah, it's a fair question for the INVESTIGATORS to ask, not for bozos in youtube comment sections with about 15% of the total information needed in order to assess potential causes. obviously! there is no evidence***** here that her "accent" caused this crash. therefore it's fucking weird for so many people to be making hostile comments about an accent
@igclapp It's really hard to say what she should have done in that case without knowing what the chain of events that preceeded the crash. You could say landing in the grass is better then what appeared to be them spinning into the ground. I think she was trying to fix the problem. That is the worse case scenario for an engine failure. Approach speed, flaps out, and gear down. And listening to the video, it looked like she had around 70 seconds from engine failure to the end. I use to go to Aviator. I even was an instructor there. This is all just really sad.
RIP. As an MEI, I don't understand how the instructor let this happen. Aviate, navigate, communicate. Looks like the MEI forgot that, and that he was PIC. Who was flying, and why after the engine issue? Letting a student fly in emergency is fine - given the student, his experience, and circumstances. Real life CRM. They were perfectly lined up to land when the call was made about the engine, so why the go around? More often than not, a single-engine go-around is impossible due to weight, DA, and the low HP engine.
how do you know, SHE wasn't the PI here? She of course might have been in process of upgrading her license, but I really can't imagine a reasonable PI wouldn't have taken the charge.
@@marcomm7828 I'll wager you're correct, she was upgrading, and far enough along in training to handle everything - flying, instrument flying, and comms. The unknown MEI could have been a he or she of course. Statistically, a he. As 90% of pilots are men, plus or minus a bit. Of course again, the female might have been the MEI, handling comms whist giving the student a specific task or tasks. I did the same during a real engine out. But my student was a wizzo Air Force Lt. Col. working on his commercial twin, and rock solid on his VFR flying by then. I gave him the task to aviate - "You have the aircraft. Keep it straight and level, maintain heading 270. I have the comms and checklist".
@MarcPagan I'm guessing the engine didn't fail on short final in your case, so to let the student hand fly the plane gives perfect sense. In this particular case, the time frame was apparently very narrow, and things went south rather quickly. Can't wait what the investigation report reveals..
Why did the controller get 643 and 635 confused, don't answer it's rhetorical? Looks like an engine failure on short final and the confusion in the call-signs is a problem. I freaking hate the flight schools with their BS call-signs and not the most English proficient pilots. Use your N number and keep this clean for everyone. Two Seminoles in the same pattern with a 600 ish call-signs and tower clears the wrong one to land any runway. If this ends up being a messed of go-around due to confusion as to a landing clearance when they could have cut power and landed that thing on either runway, well that's just sad..........
@@Airpaycheck Part of that is advertising and part of that is so that at busy airports ground controllers can say “follow company” or “let Southwest pass in front”. No reason that flight schools need to do that.
@@lancomedicadvertising? Come on man. 🙄. And no, it’s not so that ground can say: “follow company”. The call sign is the flight number. This way, airlines can swap airplanes, but still have the flight plan filed.
It appears the right engine either failed or was shut down. Twin training is dangerous business. Why they didn't just land straight ahead is something the survivor of this accident probably knows.
The controller got the two Seminole Aircraft call signs confused. Definitely part of the problem and creating confusion in the entire scenario. He’s got one job and failed miserably when he was needed most.
The question[s] that arise after hearing that is 1) was the engine failure an actual one or simulated by the instructor?; 2) if the engine failure was actual did the instructor take flight controls and if not, why not?; 3) if simulated, why didn’t the instructor recover the simulation rather than let a bad situation become worse? 4) why was tower so deliberate about closing the airfield?; why did the instructor overload the student?; and 5) why did’t the instructor simply land the aircraft on Rwy 10R? The most import single action that a pilot can take in the event of a serious emergency (engine failure qualifies) is to land the aircraft safely.
Your questions are very Valid except for number 4. The tower called the airport deliberately closed so the fire truck from across the field could get to the crash site which the tower could see from the tower, The fire truck needed taxiways and runways. The big help came from the fuel service truck, they put out any prospective fire from one of the smoking engines as there was fuel spilling out of the wings. A sad note to the story, students from the academy showed up to take pictures with their phones.
@@ericlarabell2177 agree with all. It seemed to me that A couple of minutes went by before Tower closed the airfield after seeing the crash. Maybe it was due to air traffic in the pattern, I don’t know, but seemed to be a bit longer than we normally see.
@@kevingraham2733 I was scrolling through the comments and noticed a surprising number of borderline racist comments. Like I know it's Florida, but that's really no excuse.
@@MmmHuggles that’s what I’m saying Since my first post, a good number of misogynist screeds have come up to join the racist ones It’s like some people are obsessed with hate, and everything they see is an opportunity for them to apply their confirmation bias
FAA should mandate glider time before allowing the step up to power training. Far too many fatals caused by the inability to perform basic maneuvers. It can end up saving the pilot money because many glider hours can be used for Private and Commercial ratings.
Total guess but they probably lost an engine and being so close to the airport were distracted by landing, forgot to feather, and stalled...Twin engine engine failure training kills more people than it saves...Just go ahead and say it..."Airport closed we've had a bad crash"...
Other planes either just switched to tower or weren't listening. At least 2 asked for full stop right after ATC declared field shutdown. Then one pilot asked if he could land on another runway. Really?
So sad. I wonder why they didn't go for 10R. It's the longest and also required least manoeuvering from their position. Could the panicked "635" we hear at 02:32 / 02:33 be in fact the instructor from 643? If it was indeed 635, he regain composure quite quickly. And the women pilot speaking at around same timestamp, was she in the crashed accident? If so, her calmness is shocking.
One engine inoperative landing is not very challenging. However, the worst and best decision they made was "go-aroud". It was max (go-around) power, sea-level, windmilling prop and landing speed which is very close to stall speed as well as Vmc. There are many people saying "why they did not put it on the ground?" But their survival instinct for the problem was go-around which is correct and works very well for most landing problems but not this time. That was just unfortunate. I guess I might take the same action...maybe...idk
“Why wouldn’t you have tried to go around instead you crashed a plane with a perfectly good engine” they didn’t have any great options so naturally people want to pick the one that feels most normal.
from the communication stand point. it doesnt seem efficient to have callsign such as those, where more than 50% of the call sign represent no valuable information, since Whitecap is the same for many aircrafts. it lends itself to confusion, takes airtime etc.
She was lined up on the runway and could have landed in that emergency. Instead chose to fly away from the runway and it appears attempt a tight turn to the crossing runway, stalling and crash the plane.
My guess is she plainly lost control of the plane and it could be she was also new flying a twin engine. My reasoning is you basically don't start your IFR training in a TWIN and especially if you have low hours on flying the Twin. They don't say what kind of training was being done on this flight. Twin engine training or IFR training. It also; sounds like she was put on a fast track to obtain her commercial license by building twin engine time and getting her IFR rating at the same time.
@@Mr_Plop1 True however; I believe that that is required for a commercial rating but not required for your twin engine only rating. In general you get your IFR rating and Twin rate endorsement separate. If check ride is for getting your CFII or commercial with a twin then it may require a one engine approach
@@dakotaconners107 I’ve seen your comments elsewhere, which have been incorrect. She was the instructor, not the student. Also, you have no idea what part of the training the student was in.
@@rtbrtb_dutchy4183 Since there was no mention as to her status i made my comment based on her communication skills and the events leading up to the crash. Nice that you know for a fact she was the instructor. I didn't say what part of training was being done and neither did the video. The video only mentioned doing an IFR approach and go around then someone commented that they were doing it with one engine out. The only time, unless they changed the format in the last 30 years, that an examiner might require an engine out IFR approach in a check ride is for a commercial pilot rating. The IFR approach was not done if you were going for just a Twin Engine rating. Been There Done It and i have had my license for almost 40 years.
I had to land a duchess single engine (pretty much the same airplane) back in the early 2000s. Ironically it was runway 10R in Fort Pierce when I was doing time building with Ari Ben Aviator.
Human factors are always such a big question in aviation accidents. At what point does a pilots trained decision making deteriorate into poor decision making? We had two C310's and a Baron. Fly straight ahead, (IVFS) pitch for blue line if not there, clean up the airplane and prepare to put the airplane down under control if blue line is unattainable. Messing with VMC/A is lethal, once that airplane starts to roll over you have no chance. See this interesting video. th-cam.com/video/CkAxdRGGeZY/w-d-xo.html Don't mess with being a test pilot, fly straight out. Then and only then do you give your brain a chance to apply proper single engine twin training. Tragic, RIP young lady. Interested to see what additional details come out about this accident.
@@maxtanicfilms No, Vmca decreases with increasing density altitude because maximum engine power is reduced and there is less yawing tendency from the operating engine. Therefore less indicated airspeed is required for the rudder to provide adequate counter-yaw.
@@lebojayI thought so too but there's that hook at the ned of the track, I don't get it either. Maybe they just dropped a wing stalling and pulled out the other way before crashing?
Looks like it doesn’t it. However that’s not what happened here. They VMC’d the aircraft. Got to slow and rolled on her back. So so sad. There have been so so so many VMC accidents recently
Interesting, a flight school that seems to lean heavily on EASA Flight Training. Not that it should matter for standards but does explain the foreign students.
I landed at night on a taxiway at the controllers request when a V-Tail Bonanza landed gear up on the one runway. Why should the other runway have been shut down. It was not a factor. It was well clear of the mishap. In my opinion the arriving flights should have been able to continue to land and at least taxi to a specified location. When I was coming into Fox Field, I was number two following the Bonanza. The tower advised me of the Bonanza gear up on the runway and gave me the option to take the taxiway. I said I could do it and loved it. AND THIS WAS AT NIGHT. After I landed I went out to the runway and was talking to the Bonanza owner and his son who were bringing the plane back from the East Coast as they just bought it a couple days before. The owner said it was a long trip across the United States and was excited to get home and forgot to drop the gear.
Whats going on with General Aviation in the USA? It seems there is a serious accident every day. There can only be two reasons. Aircraft maintenance and pilot incompetence. Looking at NSTB data the latter is the main cause. In many cases it private pilots with minimal skills and experience trying to get home facing approaching darkness of bad weather, or simoply bad decisions. Looking at licensing, the max hours I could find to get an IFR in the USA is 40 hours. Some will do it in a day. In Australia its an 8 week full time course with 220hrs flight time. Thats just IFR. This is in addition to the minimum 150 hours for your pilots license. The minimum hours to get an airline pilots job here is 1500 hours including 500 multi engine.
None of what you said is correct. A private pilots license in the USA requires 40 hours. Same in Australia. (Certain schools in the USA and Australia can bring that to 35 hrs) Instrument rating is next. Takes an additional 40 hours in the USA. Roughly the same in Australia. A commercial license in the USA takes 250 hours of flight time. It takes 200 hours in Australia. ATP license is 1500 for both the USA and Australia.
@@billpugh58 It is most likely the truth. They either love instructing or building time to move on to get an airline gig. Generally, most instructors do not like instructing. It gets old very quickly and is more frustrating than teaching a teenager to drive by magnitudes of the nth degree.
Actually land on 10R taxi way would be the way to go. She’s already sidestepped due to the engine at low altitude. Could have went idled and land on the taxiway instead.
Indecision at the wrong time and little to no experience (both pilots). A fatal combination that rarely works out well. I've had more simulated engine failures during part 135 check rides than I can count. Always with real airplanes (LR25/35, C310R & E110) and experienced check airmen. Better do everything right immediately and without hesitation. These incidents are becoming disturbingly common. We play for keeps in this profession...
How dare you say that? You don’t know what the details are and I go to this school. She was an excellent pilot and instructor. You can try to speculate all you want, but when you’re in a real life emergency, you don’t know how you would respond either. She’s dead, and can’t defend herself. Shame on you
pa-44 has 2 engines. There's a part in the comms where you could hear "single engine" and declaring the emergency. To me, this looks like an engine fail but I'm not an expert at all. I just listen.
I once taught as a school where the chief CFI was a rich idiot. He could not fly IFR even with glass panel, Not if some winds, and hated steep turns. LOL. But was always wearing wings and well dressed.
Carrying too much velocity to land? With doing intentional go-round, may have been too fast for remaining runway (long as it was), but not enough to (in PIC opinion) gain altitude and do a full go-round?
Yeah it’ll be pretty obvious if you’re too high, too fast, too far down runway to make a safe landing ahead on it. Committing to that is something very few people would naturally do.
22 year-old Maria Valentina Guillen was the person who perished. RIP young lady.
🙏🏼
From what I've learned, she was a certified flight instructor, but sounded more like student here. I've been around aviation for quite some time, but never heard of anyone being an instructor at age like this. I know it doesn't take much to become one, but this accident just proves the requirements should be way higher. Still feel bad for the young lady. May she rest in peace and the student recovers well.
@@marcomm7828I was an instructor at 21. It’s perfectly fine and it’s how the majority of pilots in the USA started their flying career. The requirements are fine and age has zero to do with it.
My instructor is 21... a few years younger than me. @@marcomm7828
yeah, I've known a few at around 25, but did prefer the experienced ones personally. It just appears to me, she kinda panicked in this distress situation, but who knows. I don't wanna play smart here, it's just how I feel about it..
Valentina was my instructor for my discovery flight back in December of 2022. She created an unforgettable experience and I have so much admiration in my heart for her. She was the sweetest woman and made sure I was comfortable while still having a fun time. Thoughts and prayers to all of her loved ones and those affected. Rest in peace pretty girl
You’re a cuck, ya know that?!
Well said.
April 11, 2011. My Navajo went down at KRIC. I survived with 65% burns, 2 amputated fingers, numerous broken bones, a completely destroyed and rebuilt nose, and 68 total surgeries (so far) for skin grafts, tissue reconstruction, and laser scar revision. I was on a fentanyl drip in a medically induced coma for over a month. NEVER take any day for granted. Each day we have is a gift. God bless.
Small airplanes are just a dance with death. A very interesting pursuit, but ultimately not worth it for about 99% of us.
I completely agree with you. It’s so sad how many people are killed in small aircraft.
Here's hoping you're well along in your recovery . Why did you pull back both throttles ?
TOO HIGH AOA. STALLED A strong airplane hard to stall. Panic Pull?
Wow! Sounds like it was a miracle you survived period!!!
I was a MEI with more than 250 hours of FT in a Seminole. If the engine dies on final, the plane is landing, period. That machine doesn't safely fly with one engine. Go around isn't an option.
Yup. I did all my multi rating in a Seminole. On my multi commercial checkride (which incorporated a multi instrument ride as well), I had to do a DME arc with one engine shut down (not just feathered). I could not for the life of me get it started again, I knew landing on one engine was a "you get one chance" deal - no going around. On the way back to the airport, which took about ten minutes, I did everything to get that engine going again, and finally got it to kick over and start, not long before I arrived in the pattern. Big sigh of relief!
It depends on when/where on final that the engine dies.
Interesting... Do you think it is the shorter wingspan, coupled with the heavy dated engines?
Oh great! I got my Commercial MEL rating in a Seminole.
I fly a baron and yeah priority is to land it at all cost, if I'm truly out of runway you need to know that before youre too low and if im going around though it's going to be straight out for like 10 miles so I can get some altitude before I turn back.
When she reported souls on board before declaring an emergency or mayday or something, it was SAD. You knew they were in trouble
I'm trying to understand why she mentioned souls on board so soon instead of focussing on flying the plane. Is doing so part of that flight school's training?
She sounded so unsure and overwhelmed. :(
She didn’t sound overwhelmed
She sounded “resigned,” one of the five danger-attitudes.
How would you sound in the air during an emergency?
…like every single other FEMALE PILOT in aviation!
@@V1AbortV2How dare you, you nasty ignorant sexist, racist shuck
That went bad extremely quickly. As a former instructor, I have difficulty understanding how the plane couldn’t land safely- on either runway or anywhere on the airport- from a position on short final. Was she too high or was the instructor confused by something the controller said? Was the student switched from a go around mode to a landing mode at last second? In any event, fly the airplane first. and stop talking to ATC until the aircraft is stable.Very sad scenario. RIP.
Too many questions, we need to wait for the investigation report
@@marcospark2803 hopefully whoever survived can be interviewed because there’s no other way to know what happened in the cockpit
that is a lot of quarterbacking for a crash that just occurred a couple of days ago. let the investigators do their job. rip to the person who died and get well to the person who is in hospital.
@@JOSHL50asking questions isn’t the same as quarterbacking in my book.
My guess will be that the instructor took the controls at some point and flew the aircraft first.
She then decided by herself to continue to communicate.
Also it could be possible they started first the go around but decided to lad instead, but being too high. This could explain the request for another runway.
We will have to wait for the final report.
But it already shows how fast this can go south.
Communicate comes after aviate. When you have an emergency, you’re in the drivers seat. You don’t ask. Just do.
Devil is in the details.
Actually it comes after navigate as well.
Aviate, Navigate, Communicate
With a proprietary FAA-approved callsign, they're clearly a training operation. They must have been doing the one-engine-inoperative ILS approach for the pilot's Comm'l Multi-engine rating. Training in twins requires a high degree of safety awareness and risk-management, and a highly skilled instructor. Terrible sad mishap. Terrible. I expect a blancolirio brief on this accident soon.
Valentina was an incredible instructor, about to become a 4 bar instructor and I’m 100% sure she would’ve landed the aircraft if the scenario presented here was accurate but it isn’t, the comms are delayed and she was actually way closer to the middle of the runway when she lost the right engine. Everybody no matter how good u think you are has a shock moment (around 10 secs) in unexpected scenarios like this one, she chose to turn right and I’m sure she had a reason for it unfortunately 1 mistake is enough for everything to go south and that turn in combination with a slight pitch caused the spin. It’s easy to judge when you are not the one in her position but let’s have some respect for the family.
Soy tía de Valentina, prime hermana de su mamá, estamos todos destrozados😢
It seemed obvious to me that they must’ve been too high to make the runway. Losing the engine halfway down the runway while at 500 feet and moving fast isn’t a good situation.
Lose it at minimums sure go straight ahead. In the climb after a possibly early missed? Your options aren’t so clear cut anymore.
@@gabrielakukolkaraoke4862 Mi más sentido pésame, siempre recordaré a Vale como la increíble y linda persona que fue, yo era su roommate desde que llegue hace más de 1 año y solo tengo buenos recuerdos con ella, a los meses de llegar nos fuimos al downtown de fort pierce y me mostró el centro de la ciudad, tomamos fotos (me mostró su escultura favorita de la cual tengo fotos de ese día) y me contó que su papa a penas llegó ella por acá, le dibujo un mapa de como movilizarse dentro de fort pierce, nos reímos y le dije que eso no lo hace cualquier papa, ayer me vi con los familiares en la casa pero lamentablemente no supe como decirles cuanto lamentaba su perdida, les mando un fuerte abrazo a todos y sepan que Vale era muy querida por aquí y no será olvidada, cuídense mucho.
@@gabrielakukolkaraoke4862 Mi más sentido pésame, siempre recordaré a Vale como la increíble y linda persona que fue, yo era su roommate desde que llegue hace más de 1 año y solo tengo buenos recuerdos con ella, a los meses de llegar nos fuimos al downtown de fort pierce y me mostró el centro de la ciudad, tomamos fotos (me mostró su escultura favorita de la cual tengo fotos de ese día) y me contó que su papa a penas llegó ella por acá, le dibujo un mapa de como movilizarse dentro de fort pierce, nos reímos y le dije que eso no lo hace cualquier papa, ayer me vi con los familiares en la casa pero lamentablemente no supe como decirles cuanto lamentaba su perdida, les mando un fuerte abrazo a todos y sepan que Vale era muy querida por aquí y no será olvidada, cuídense mucho.
No disrespect to Valentina, but a multi instructor (as any multi pilot) has to expect an engine failure at any time. It shouldn't take ten seconds to start to take action.
This is so very sad. A terrible place to lose an engine in an aircraft that simply doesn’t fly on one. Two lessons/reminders for the rest of us to possibly take away from this tragedy are: 1) to remember that in an emergency all surfaces are now “runways”; grass, taxiways, and open areas are all to be considered as viable landing areas so don’t fixate on the actual runway, 2) and do whatever it takes to NOT stall spin; always fly through the crash as controlled and level as possible.
Former ME CFI. That looked like a miss approach single engine actual. She tried to land on runway 14 but overshot it. Then on the single engine go around she let it VMC roll and down it went.
I tried this in a simulator. The best I could do was accelerate and dive to get cleaned up and then limp along. If I tried anything more aggressive I just spun towards the dead engine. I fear that the simulations these days are much more accurate than they used to be. So their only chance really was to power off the good engine and land straight ahead. At least crash upright. But I don't know what altitude they were at. Hopefully Blancolirio will analyze this crash.
First two things, full pwr good engine, opposite rudder to counter, push yoke forward get nose down and DO NOT clean up the plane if you have any flaps and gear out, your asking for a stall spin and thats exactly what flight path lopks like along with rapid loas of speed combined with possibly the student (female) on controls witj cfi at same time, not good in any way.
@08turboSS And you killed them. Because you jammed in full power before accelerating above Vmc. So you didn't have the rudder authority, and you yawed due to asymmetric thrust, spun from low altitude, and crashed before you could even get the power off and try to recover from your error.
@@08turboSS LOL.. DO NOT CLEAN UP THE AIRPLANE? How the hell will you not go down with all that drag of flaps and gear? Dont bullshit us. YOU HAVE TO CLEAN FLAPS AND GEAR TOO OR WONT CLIMB.
In any twin - that becomes single - it really is a glider. A really crap glider. If you lose an engine, your hands are on the throttles for a freaking reason. Close them both, pick a spot, and pray you survive. Crashing right side up is a whole lot better than crashing nose down inverted.
@@cageordiewhen you do practice approaches - you always fly it above VYSE and the Seminole VMC is above stall speed so what are you even on about? Do you think they're flying an Aerostar or something? I have a lot of hours in Piper twins, including the Seminole. That's hogwash what you just asserted. It might apply in a 310, Baron, whatever. But certainly not if you fly approaches properly. All aircraft you fly the approach above VMC or at VYSE in case of a failure, so you can make it to the ground on the one remaining. In some light twins, you do a go around --- highly unusual to be able to do so. We had a Seneca with a Robertson STOL kit that was an exception to the single engine = crashing soon rule. That's the only light twin I've flown that would legitimately fly on one. And it was because (yes, in the STC as well) of the STOL kit. I loved that plane. If I could still have it today, I would. So easy to fly well!
You always clean up the airplane AS you smoothly apply power. If possible, keep the descent going until it's clean so it cleans up even faster. If it won't do a go around - full flaps, idle, and dive for whatever runway or field is ahead. I don't care. That's more survivable than stalling on one engine.
Florida general aviation having a rough time recently
Sure thing, by so many aviation accidents in the past year. I'm in Kissimmee, Florida near the home of "Crazy Horse- P-51 Mustang." It's been a heartbreaking 2 years in general aviation for this state.
@@Aonexia guessing it’s just because the weather down there is warm so people are flying.
@@gumbyshrimp2606 I guess...
Atc and pilot here. Lot's of training mixed with a lot of established ga, with a lot of commercial traffic. Flying cross country is like space invaders.
@@freakfly23 True... Thanks for the reply. I so get the "Space Invaders" analogy. Haaa... I love you guy's!
This flight school seriously needs investigated.. two fatal crashes in 6month span WITH CFIs onboard…
Why on earth would you attempt to go around single engine in a Semiole???????????
At ATP we taught if you lose an engine in the PA44, you LAND at all costs straight ahead! No turning!! Its literally safer to bust minimuns and attempt to land than it is to go around single engine in a seminole…
RIP😔
"Landing at all costs" is precisely what was attempted here, and is precisely WHY the crash. While counterintuitive, clawing for altitude gain and doing the full go-around would have been a better idea. If _simulated_ single engine failure at the moment equals go-round, _so does a real failure._ Unless the GOOD engine failed, and they were now gliding?
@@xheralt what are you talking about? Low to to the ground in a seminole, land straight ahead. What went wrong is she tried to turn low to the ground (PROBABLY into the bad engine making things even worse) on a single engine and land on 14 when she was already lined up with 10R! Should have landed on 10R.. even if it meant land long. I really hope an actual failure happened and this wasnt all apart of a simulated failure…
@@xxhockeymaster03xx I agree 100% and I am sick of all these phony virtue signalers who feign wringing their hands and gnashing their teeth when these people make hideous decisions and auger-in; they know nothing of the A/Cs performance and have next to no REAL WORLD flying experience.
This is glaring to me, just as it was to you. People are flying today and being by trained by people who do not have the requisite body of knowledge to be at the controls of and aircraft and especially should not be instructing people on learning to fly an aircraft.
Just look at the pilots in the TH-cam wonderland, that speaks for itself. Also, the only mishap debrief I am inclined to listen to, is Dan Gryder. Like his personality or not, he is not going to sugarcoat it, nor be afraid to speculate on the cause of the mishap for fear of offending the snowflakes in the audience. This is the court of public opinion, not a court of law. We are entitled to share our opinion, especially when we may have a little more real world experience flying the world than many of these content creators or virtue signaler.
That’s what happens when these FL flight schools cater to female and MINORITY foreigners! You’re going to have a high accident rate!
@@xxhockeymaster03xx This....put it down even if you end up on the grass past the end of the runway, wheels up and even hitting the fence after skidding. If she was at Vref on final and had enough power to make that turn, she could have slammed it in on 10R. She may have had it in her mind to save the airplane and land it.
I only have 13 hours of multi time but form I learned that if you have a dead engine in the landing configuration that thing is not climbing, you have no othe option but to put it on the ground. My guess is that they lost their right engine, tried to climb, got too slow, and entered a Vmc roll at a very low altitude. Rest in peace to the pilot who passed away
Con tren abajo y un motor muerto es imposible si pierdes la mínima velocidad de control poder ir al aire,girar y ascender. Simplemente sigue recto sin potencia y aterriza adelante donde sea. Es así?
Si.
Really confused how a flight with an instructor could crash a small twin when right over top of an airport with runways in every direction. All power off, put it down wherever an open space exists, grass, pavement, doesn't matter. Don't stall and spin at 100 feet. Sad to see.
We had the Chief flight instructor and a student gear up a Seminole because they forgot to put the landing gear down.
As an instructors with barely any hours, becoming instructors to build time, is that what you’re referring to :-)
Don’t talk if you don’t know what happened
She declared the emergency before the go around. She used the memory items we are taught at my school and the ACS. “Gear up, flaps up, full prop, power, mixture, etc” and when you’re this low, she should have idled the engines and landed straight in but she already lost directional control banking towards the inop engine (on the right) which is why she made an attempt to land on 14
@@hillarynicole5089 Spent too much time worrying about communicating, trying to declare an emergency, worrying about souls on board and how much fuel left... worst stuff to be focusing on during a high stress and immediate situation. There was no presence of mind about what to do during an emergency before beginning the approach, something that should always be briefed or already thought of in the past. There must be some training about how marginal a PA44 is on single engine, especially in a go-around? it's not a 737.
This is so sad to hear. I lived in Vero S just north of Fort Pierce, and I knew of several pilots who flew to and from both air fields. My heart goes out to those involved and their families.
🙏
There must be security cameras footage of the last few seconds of this accident. I’m surprised that nothing additional has been published in two weeks. Also waiting to hear the accounts as related by the survivor student.
Same thing, same day, in Truckee Nevada, only, there they had snow, ice, 1/2 mile visibility, and mountains, and a non-precision localizer missed approach. Both in NV perished.
Non-precision ILS? What? Theres no such thing.
@@xxhockeymaster03xx Unless my charts are hopelessly out of date, KTRK has 3 RNAVs, no LOC/ILS at all. 14.5deg offset, ouch. Certainly non-precision at least.
@@michaelhoffmann2891 he said non-precision ILS approach initially but corrected it to localizer.
@@xxhockeymaster03xx Localizer approach uses same beam. You can be cleared for an ILS approach “Glide slope inop”.
@@davidbeattie1366 thats not the point. He initially said “non-precision ILS”. He corrected it to say “non-precision localizer” after i pointed that mistake out. There is no such thing as a “non precision ILS”.
I think there are bots in the comments because they're all screaming about the pilot's English accent, her speaking was clear and concise.
Yeah, her thinking and preparedness, not so much.
@@AndrewGrey22it’s called panic go play MSFS you non pilot 😊
Sad that aviation in the USA attracts racist, misogynist xenophobes who believe that only WHITE, MALE Americans can fly airplanes. They are proven wrong thousands of times a day when foreign pilots safely aviate around the world. As far as accents are concerned, I hope these twits don’t ever fly overseas where everyone has an accent. Their head may just burst at the challenge.
Rip. Looking forward to ntsb report.
Guessing at this point, but maybe lost the right engine. Then stalled the right wing when they tried to turn to 14. Whatever they did was obviously too abrupt for the aircraft and they came down uncontrolled.
You don’t ever turn into the dead engine.
I think you may be on to something. There's a panicked "635" comm at about 02:32 that I was trying to make sense of. I think it happens just as 643 turns right, so what we hear might be his reaction to seeing the plane flipping around after the wing stall. It might also explain why the plane crashed with the gear side up.
@@richwilde4908 right but the plane crashed, so they may have attempted to, leading to the crash is what is being said, obviously
@@user-lm2ix1xd4c that’s why you don’t turn into the dead engine.
@@richwilde4908 well no shit lol
These other pilots need to listen to what's going on before keying up their mics! Talk about complete lack of situational awareness.
1. When someone declares an emergency, you open your ears and don't step on them!
2. When you're approaching an airspace, don't just dial up the freq and blab. Listen for a bit first!
Problem is not a single mayday call, atc basically had to declare the emergency
@@FlyingNDriving Exactly!
@@FlyingNDriving She was cleared for the Option, meaning she was cleared to land already. The problem was trying to return to the pattern. The Seminole with the gear down will not climb on a single engine, so she needed to use the remaining runway of 10R, and just use the grass, the fence and the vegetation ahead. Fortunately at that airport, there are no buildings after the fence...
Many of the comments have been about immigrants and language and some people showing their colors. But the issue is not about accents and immigrants, it is about the need and requirement for clear and concise language between pilots and Controllers...and that is not negotiable. Demanding that in no way is discriminatory against any citizen's origin, it is about safety in a complex three-dimensional world that is getting more and more crowded. Come on people!
agree its not about accents or immigrants whatsoever. too many racist sheep these days, not enough self-initiated thought - racist groupthink.
if problems ARE being caused by communication breakdowns between english-first and non-english-first speakers, then the problem lies with the regulations, standards, and efficacy of the safety protocols that must be in place to curb those potential communication barriers. fucking obviously. the problem certainly does not lie in non-english-language speakers simply existing as pilots. i cannot with people.
You can't have clear and concise communication if someone has an undecipherable accent and poor English language skills. By the way most these foreign students are here on student/work visas, not immigrant visas.
I’m was immigrant child and used to be a school teacher in a predominantly immigrant school as a a grown up. One of the stupidest things I keep seeing is monolingual Americans thinking that shouting the same words louder will help someone understand. They’re just ignorant and xenophobic.
@@kewkabe aviation English is a highly specialized version of English that is designed to specifically mitigate differences in accents and dialect. Everyone one these highly motivated individuals has to pass ICAO English proficiency tests. You don’t have to have a beer with them but you also don’t have to be a nationalistic prick.
@@kewkabe The unclear communications seems to mirror the lack of flying capabilities. Given they declared an emergency, they sure weren't flying like one.
Prayers to all those impacted by the incident.
🙏
You’re a cuck, ya know that?
Well, I wasn't flying in that pattern, and I was confused
Another sad story. It is really frustrating when there is an "instructor" involved in an accident. Other things I noticed were the poor radio communications skills all around except for the controller.
The controller confused 2 different planes, he confused them just as much
I think we shouldn't jump to conclusions about the instructor just based on what we know at this point.
There could have been something terribly wrong with the plane. Or the student might have gotten scared and pulled up all of a sudden causing a stall.
@@a_goblue2023 this was after he witnessed the plane crash. Would love to see how calm you stay in a situation like this.
@@cfm1337 your job as a controller is to stay calm in situations like this, if you can handle it don’t become a controller, errors like that in a big airport could cause major issues
@@a_goblue2023 You can stay calm and still slip up by saying the wrong number for two very similar names. Especially when one of them is so in your mind due to a crash. And communication works two ways, you're simultaneously calling the pilots incompetent if they did not realize the controller's MINOR error and correct it. Everyone involved worked through this slip up seamlessly, and you're here calling for them to be robots.
I am a former glider pilot, so not as cued into communication protocol as many commenting might be, but I wonder if they could have declared an emergency sooner so the Tower could have handled things differently? And also the nature of the problem. But it is unclear to me when the emergency surfaced.
They could, but they'd have been better landing and worrying about telling people why later.
Truth is that is little ATC can do other than clearing up the airspace around you and maybe providing clearances for approach and landing. It's up to the pilot to fly the plane and make a safe landing.
In extreme emergencies you don't even have to waste time and energy with comms. You just focus on landing the plane and do the explaining later.
In this particular case they were so close to the runaway that is extremely shocking and sad to see how it all ended...
@@BlueSkyUp_EU Once you have called MAYDAY it's all up to you, ATC can give you help, but you don't need clearance to do anything. Even a military airfield will allow you to land once you say the three magic words. Very few pilots get that in the US. Listen to the Thompson 757 MAYDAY at Manchester, the pilot doesn't ask for directions he tells ATC what he's doing, because that was an ex RAF pilot and he knows how this works. UK ATC are very accommodating too. I've only ever heard one airport try to turn away an emergency and that controller chose the wrong person. That was Scott Purdue in a B-25 at Las Vegas McCarran. th-cam.com/video/F8fj9VoH5SA/w-d-xo.html
Great post Christian. So sorry for what happened 😪 Eng fail right when you add power to do a missed app, is THE worst thing in a low powered twin. May Valentina rest in peace 😪 And to the keyboard warriors - 2000 hours as a MEI..and another 16k in easy overpowered airplanes .
Not sure what ATC could've handled differently, to be honest. The announcement of the emergency wasn't really the issue so much as handling the aircraft. Flying one-engine in a light twin like the semi at low speed is a pretty critical situation and regardless of how soon the ATC was made aware of the emergency, the pilot can land and discuss it later.
I sometimes wonder if the ATCs are conducting a contest on how fast and how garbled they can communicate vital information. You would think clarity would come first. On some of these recordings you get a concise and easily understandable radio call and on a lot you get what sounds like a burst of static. Are they trying to confuse?
The single biggest complaint I have about communication between pilots and ATC is the unnecessarily hurried speed of speech.
I've replayed this flight over twenty times on Flightradar24.. She was at 50ft crossing the threshold of RW14, at 68kts heading east. She then gradually turned south, holding altitude at 25ft. Then quickly descended towards RW14 but crossed it at a right angle and heading towards some structures. One appears to be a restaurant. Now she's showing zero altitude but at 60kts and turning sharply right (north) and avoiding buildings but barely slowing down until the plane apparently flipped. The pictures show the landing gear lowered. I believe that if they hadn't flipped we'd be telling a different story.
I believe you need to add 250 feet to those altitude figures due to the altimeter setting of 30.17.
@@igclapp so you’re saying she was at 300ft over the runway?
@@Taino505 Yes, between 250 and 325 feet MSL, which is about 225 to 300 feet above the runway.
Sad that this comment section has devolved by people who think their ancestors lived here 400 years ago and anyone with an “accent” isnt allowed to be here.
We are fed up with diversity and you are commenting about the blow back.
For some, hatred is an obsession and everything they see is an opportunity to apply their confirmation bias.
Do you not think it is a fair question to determine if language was an issue in this accident cause it sounded like it? What does that have to do with hating anyone?
Well if you're a hammer everything looks like a nail. I couldn't understand her either.
@@jamesa5720 yeah, it's a fair question for the INVESTIGATORS to ask, not for bozos in youtube comment sections with about 15% of the total information needed in order to assess potential causes. obviously! there is no evidence***** here that her "accent" caused this crash. therefore it's fucking weird for so many people to be making hostile comments about an accent
It's sad. So young Girl.
Very sad. Breaks my heart.
@igclapp It's really hard to say what she should have done in that case without knowing what the chain of events that preceeded the crash. You could say landing in the grass is better then what appeared to be them spinning into the ground. I think she was trying to fix the problem. That is the worse case scenario for an engine failure. Approach speed, flaps out, and gear down. And listening to the video, it looked like she had around 70 seconds from engine failure to the end. I use to go to Aviator. I even was an instructor there. This is all just really sad.
Question: Did 635 step on top of 643 radio call while she was talking to the tower after declaring an emergency?
RIP.
As an MEI, I don't understand how the instructor let this happen.
Aviate, navigate, communicate.
Looks like the MEI forgot that, and that he was PIC.
Who was flying, and why after the engine issue?
Letting a student fly in emergency is fine - given the student, his experience, and circumstances.
Real life CRM.
They were perfectly lined up to land when the call was made about the engine,
so why the go around?
More often than not,
a single-engine go-around is impossible due to weight, DA, and the low HP engine.
how do you know, SHE wasn't the PI here? She of course might have been in process of upgrading her license, but I really can't imagine a reasonable PI wouldn't have taken the charge.
@@marcomm7828
I'll wager you're correct, she was upgrading, and far enough along in training to handle everything - flying, instrument flying, and comms.
The unknown MEI could have been a he or she of course. Statistically, a he.
As 90% of pilots are men, plus or minus a bit.
Of course again, the female might have been the MEI, handling comms whist giving the student a specific task or tasks.
I did the same during a real engine out.
But my student was a wizzo Air Force Lt. Col. working on his commercial twin, and rock solid on his VFR flying by then.
I gave him the task to aviate -
"You have the aircraft.
Keep it straight and level, maintain heading 270.
I have the comms and checklist".
@MarcPagan I'm guessing the engine didn't fail on short final in your case, so to let the student hand fly the plane gives perfect sense. In this particular case, the time frame was apparently very narrow, and things went south rather quickly. Can't wait what the investigation report reveals..
Second crash from this flight school in 6 months
I don't think MOST pilots even think about an engine quitting. The ones that do always have a plan, instructing or not.
Probably like Daytona - pulled the mixture - engine quit completely no restart - stall / spin
This was an avgas piston plane. The engine can restart fairly quickly when you move the mixture back to normal.
Why did the controller get 643 and 635 confused, don't answer it's rhetorical? Looks like an engine failure on short final and the confusion in the call-signs is a problem. I freaking hate the flight schools with their BS call-signs and not the most English proficient pilots. Use your N number and keep this clean for everyone. Two Seminoles in the same pattern with a 600 ish call-signs and tower clears the wrong one to land any runway. If this ends up being a messed of go-around due to confusion as to a landing clearance when they could have cut power and landed that thing on either runway, well that's just sad..........
Airlines use call signs instead of tail numbers. I'm just sayin.................
@@Airpaycheck Part of that is advertising and part of that is so that at busy airports ground controllers can say “follow company” or “let Southwest pass in front”. No reason that flight schools need to do that.
Count me in on the bs call signs. Home field currently has 6 different flight schools and it’s confusing as hell.
@@lancomedicadvertising? Come on man. 🙄. And no, it’s not so that ground can say: “follow company”.
The call sign is the flight number. This way, airlines can swap airplanes, but still have the flight plan filed.
@@rtbrtb_dutchy4183 Okay
Despite the incident still a safe way to travel rip lost soul
So the engine failed after they went around?
It appears the right engine either failed or was shut down. Twin training is dangerous business. Why they didn't just land straight ahead is something the survivor of this accident probably knows.
RIP....I got so many question about this incident, :/
Sadly this incident happened to a person whom I know. He's the one who survived this crash and I'm also sorry for the loss of the instructor
Sorry to hear that. How is he doing? Is he able to provide any information about what happened?
RIP
The controller got the two Seminole Aircraft call signs confused. Definitely part of the problem and creating confusion in the entire scenario. He’s got one job and failed miserably when he was needed most.
He seemed to become flustered, yes, but I cannot see how the ATC caused or contributed to the incident.
There was a crash in FL yesterday, seems like it’s once a week now, really wanna see what when wrong.
Get used to it! All these undertrained yo-yos are heading to the airlines
The question[s] that arise after hearing that is 1) was the engine failure an actual one or simulated by the instructor?; 2) if the engine failure was actual did the instructor take flight controls and if not, why not?; 3) if simulated, why didn’t the instructor recover the simulation rather than let a bad situation become worse? 4) why was tower so deliberate about closing the airfield?; why did the instructor overload the student?; and 5) why did’t the instructor simply land the aircraft on Rwy 10R?
The most import single action that a pilot can take in the event of a serious emergency (engine failure qualifies) is to land the aircraft safely.
Your questions are very Valid except for number 4. The tower called the airport deliberately closed so the fire truck from across the field could get to the crash site which the tower could see from the tower, The fire truck needed taxiways and runways. The big help came from the fuel service truck, they put out any prospective fire from one of the smoking engines as there was fuel spilling out of the wings. A sad note to the story, students from the academy showed up to take pictures with their phones.
@@ericlarabell2177 agree with all. It seemed to me that A couple of minutes went by before Tower closed the airfield after seeing the crash. Maybe it was due to air traffic in the pattern, I don’t know, but seemed to be a bit longer than we normally see.
These frequent incidents are why many mechs prefer staying on the ground
A&P/IA
If your first instinct after watching this is to complain about immigration, there is something wrong with you.
Why? Fuq em
Never even come to mind, only yours it seems
@@kevingraham2733 my post was a reaction to comments I read here. It didn’t occur to me either. Like you, I was surprised that it occurred to others.
@@kevingraham2733 I was scrolling through the comments and noticed a surprising number of borderline racist comments. Like I know it's Florida, but that's really no excuse.
@@MmmHuggles that’s what I’m saying
Since my first post, a good number of misogynist screeds have come up to join the racist ones
It’s like some people are obsessed with hate, and everything they see is an opportunity for them to apply their confirmation bias
FAA should mandate glider time before allowing the step up to power training. Far too many fatals caused by the inability to perform basic maneuvers. It can end up saving the pilot money because many glider hours can be used for Private and Commercial ratings.
So tragic and sad!
Total guess but they probably lost an engine and being so close to the airport were distracted by landing, forgot to feather, and stalled...Twin engine engine failure training kills more people than it saves...Just go ahead and say it..."Airport closed we've had a bad crash"...
Rest in peace🥺
Looks like engine sim failed, failed for real with gear and flaps down. She needed to land it, but VMC roll or stalled instead.
Other planes either just switched to tower or weren't listening. At least 2 asked for full stop right after ATC declared field shutdown. Then one pilot asked if he could land on another runway. Really?
So sad. I wonder why they didn't go for 10R. It's the longest and also required least manoeuvering from their position.
Could the panicked "635" we hear at 02:32 / 02:33 be in fact the instructor from 643?
If it was indeed 635, he regain composure quite quickly.
And the women pilot speaking at around same timestamp, was she in the crashed accident?
If so, her calmness is shocking.
What the hell happened here? Changed runways at last minute, missed it, turned too tight and stalled?
One engine inoperative landing is not very challenging. However, the worst and best decision they made was "go-aroud". It was max (go-around) power, sea-level, windmilling prop and landing speed which is very close to stall speed as well as Vmc. There are many people saying "why they did not put it on the ground?" But their survival instinct for the problem was go-around which is correct and works very well for most landing problems but not this time. That was just unfortunate. I guess I might take the same action...maybe...idk
“Why wouldn’t you have tried to go around instead you crashed a plane with a perfectly good engine” they didn’t have any great options so naturally people want to pick the one that feels most normal.
Which number AQP scenario is this?
from the communication stand point. it doesnt seem efficient to have callsign such as those, where more than 50% of the call sign represent no valuable information, since Whitecap is the same for many aircrafts. it lends itself to confusion, takes airtime etc.
Rip !
Single Engine Go Around and VMC Roll?
As a former X-15 jockey, Shuttle commander, and Concorde captain, I completely agree with the guys comments below.
Whitecap 635 heard there was an accident and still wanted to do a full stop landing! OMFG!
Settle down blasphemer
@@comcfi okay tool!
She was lined up on the runway and could have landed in that emergency. Instead chose to fly away from the runway and it appears attempt a tight turn to the crossing runway, stalling and crash the plane.
Appears to be a vmc stall spin.
My guess is she plainly lost control of the plane and it could be she was also new flying a twin engine. My reasoning is you basically don't start your IFR training in a TWIN and especially if you have low hours on flying the Twin. They don't say what kind of training was being done on this flight. Twin engine training or IFR training. It also; sounds like she was put on a fast track to obtain her commercial license by building twin engine time and getting her IFR rating at the same time.
Twin engine training requires a single engine instrument approach for the checkride though.
@@Mr_Plop1 True however; I believe that that is required for a commercial rating but not required for your twin engine only rating. In general you get your IFR rating and Twin rate endorsement separate. If check ride is for getting your CFII or commercial with a twin then it may require a one engine approach
@@dakotaconners107 I’ve seen your comments elsewhere, which have been incorrect. She was the instructor, not the student. Also, you have no idea what part of the training the student was in.
@@rtbrtb_dutchy4183 Since there was no mention as to her status i made my comment based on her communication skills and the events leading up to the crash. Nice that you know for a fact she was the instructor. I didn't say what part of training was being done and neither did the video. The video only mentioned doing an IFR approach and go around then someone commented that they were doing it with one engine out. The only time, unless they changed the format in the last 30 years, that an examiner might require an engine out IFR approach in a check ride is for a commercial pilot rating. The IFR approach was not done if you were going for just a Twin Engine rating. Been There Done It and i have had my license for almost 40 years.
Seems obvious they were too high and far down the runway to easily land ahead with remaining runway.
I had to land a duchess single engine (pretty much the same airplane) back in the early 2000s. Ironically it was runway 10R in Fort Pierce when I was doing time building with Ari Ben Aviator.
Human factors are always such a big question in aviation accidents. At what point does a pilots trained decision making deteriorate into poor decision making? We had two C310's and a Baron. Fly straight ahead, (IVFS) pitch for blue line if not there, clean up the airplane and prepare to put the airplane down under control if blue line is unattainable. Messing with VMC/A is lethal, once that airplane starts to roll over you have no chance. See this interesting video. th-cam.com/video/CkAxdRGGeZY/w-d-xo.html
Don't mess with being a test pilot, fly straight out. Then and only then do you give your brain a chance to apply proper single engine twin training. Tragic, RIP young lady. Interested to see what additional details come out about this accident.
Doesn't Vmca decrease with increasing density altitude and increasing weight?
@@maxtanicfilms No, Vmca decreases with increasing density altitude because maximum engine power is reduced and there is less yawing tendency from the operating engine. Therefore less indicated airspeed is required for the rudder to provide adequate counter-yaw.
looks like another attempt at the "impossible turn" back to the runway
Weren’t they already on final?
@@lebojayI thought so too but there's that hook at the ned of the track, I don't get it either. Maybe they just dropped a wing stalling and pulled out the other way before crashing?
Looks like it doesn’t it. However that’s not what happened here. They VMC’d the aircraft. Got to slow and rolled on her back. So so sad. There have been so so so many VMC accidents recently
Thank you God for blessing my family and protecting us from the evils in this world. I love you. ❤️❤️❤️🙏🙏🙏
What happened??
Interesting, a flight school that seems to lean heavily on EASA Flight Training. Not that it should matter for standards but does explain the foreign students.
Took the controller long enough to stop airport operations.
That's an airport manager decision, not controller.
It's not the controller's responsibility 😂
I landed at night on a taxiway at the controllers request when a V-Tail Bonanza landed gear up on the one runway. Why should the other runway have been shut down. It was not a factor. It was well clear of the mishap. In my opinion the arriving flights should have been able to continue to land and at least taxi to a specified location.
When I was coming into Fox Field, I was number two following the Bonanza. The tower advised me of the Bonanza gear up on the runway and gave me the option to take the taxiway. I said I could do it and loved it. AND THIS WAS AT NIGHT. After I landed I went out to the runway and was talking to the Bonanza owner and his son who were bringing the plane back from the East Coast as they just bought it a couple days before. The owner said it was a long trip across the United States and was excited to get home and forgot to drop the gear.
@johnbasiglone1219 aren't you a legend... pity you understand f-all about airfield ops.
Whats going on with General Aviation in the USA? It seems there is a serious accident every day. There can only be two reasons. Aircraft maintenance and pilot incompetence. Looking at NSTB data the latter is the main cause. In many cases it private pilots with minimal skills and experience trying to get home facing approaching darkness of bad weather, or simoply bad decisions. Looking at licensing, the max hours I could find to get an IFR in the USA is 40 hours. Some will do it in a day. In Australia its an 8 week full time course with 220hrs flight time. Thats just IFR. This is in addition to the minimum 150 hours for your pilots license. The minimum hours to get an airline pilots job here is 1500 hours including 500 multi engine.
My guess is new money
None of what you said is correct. A private pilots license in the USA requires 40 hours. Same in Australia. (Certain schools in the USA and Australia can bring that to 35 hrs)
Instrument rating is next. Takes an additional 40 hours in the USA. Roughly the same in Australia.
A commercial license in the USA takes 250 hours of flight time. It takes 200 hours in Australia.
ATP license is 1500 for both the USA and Australia.
The US GA accident rate has been coming down for years. ANd it is way below the average so far this year. Your words are all false.
@@michaelspunich7273 watch the news, daily carnage.
Private aviation has never been safer. There were literally four or five fatal crashes per day decades ago.
Unless the instructor is doing this out of love for instructing, its a time builder for many.
Is that an accusation?
Its a foreign pilot mil.
@@billpugh58 It is most likely the truth. They either love instructing or building time to move on to get an airline gig. Generally, most instructors do not like instructing. It gets old very quickly and is more frustrating than teaching a teenager to drive by magnitudes of the nth degree.
@@billpugh58 no...an accurate observation
Seen a lot of Seminole training wrecks in the last few months, MEI training is definitely lacking.
Sooner or later, death comes for us all
RIP
Actually land on 10R taxi way would be the way to go. She’s already sidestepped due to the engine at low altitude. Could have went idled and land on the taxiway instead.
Si..we speak many languages. You?
Stall is not your friend
Indecision at the wrong time and little to no experience (both pilots). A fatal combination that rarely works out well. I've had more simulated engine failures during part 135 check rides than I can count. Always with real airplanes (LR25/35, C310R & E110) and experienced check airmen. Better do everything right immediately and without hesitation. These incidents are becoming disturbingly common. We play for keeps in this profession...
Your training is complete.
I'm really confused why they didn't just land on Rwy 10? Were they too high?
22 and already an instructor smh sounds fatal
Tower mixed up the callsigns of the planes. I think that may have been a contributing factor.
It really wasn't though.
When you have an emergency you fly the plane where you need to go and let ATC get people out of the way.
Too many crashes, to many engine out real/training scenarios, fuel outs, What's Going On?!
Whoever certified her needs their license yanked. Not prepared at all for losing an engine on approach.
Ridiculous thing to say.
You have no idea what happened. 🙄
How dare you say that? You don’t know what the details are and I go to this school. She was an excellent pilot and instructor. You can try to speculate all you want, but when you’re in a real life emergency, you don’t know how you would respond either. She’s dead, and can’t defend herself. Shame on you
@@hillarynicole5089 my condolences. Don’t listen to these loser keyboard warriors.
pa-44 has 2 engines. There's a part in the comms where you could hear "single engine" and declaring the emergency. To me, this looks like an engine fail but I'm not an expert at all. I just listen.
Sounded like the student (female) was trying to fly and comms fighting the cfi. 😢
She was the instructor.
Rip;-;
Every other pilot into Ft Pierce is a foreigner? Where is this place/
No. JetBlue has a pilot program at this school full of former employees; who are US citizens. Including myself
I once taught as a school where the chief CFI was a rich idiot. He could not fly IFR even with glass panel, Not if some winds, and hated steep turns. LOL. But was always wearing wings and well dressed.
did the engun propelor stop spinns
Why trying to circle to 14 to land??? Runway 10 was right in front of her!
Carrying too much velocity to land? With doing intentional go-round, may have been too fast for remaining runway (long as it was), but not enough to (in PIC opinion) gain altitude and do a full go-round?
Yeah it’ll be pretty obvious if you’re too high, too fast, too far down runway to make a safe landing ahead on it. Committing to that is something very few people would naturally do.
Gezzz I don’t understand what happened.