I like the part about the back wheel has more sag than at the shock when progressivity is high. I'll set my sag a bit lower at the shock when my frame geometry is set more progressively; how much lower....I don't know the math. Got the Ride-9 adjustment system and I'll be playing with that alot. These vids are done very well and I love this information! Just hope I'm actually understanding it😄
Hi man, great video's! how do you get all this specific and accurate information? do you know the exact position of the pivots? brand keep this a secret right? Keep up the good work!
Great video. If you can do a comparison between Scott Spark and Genius it would be great.Also a comparison between 70kg and 100kg. Do XL bikes need different shocks to get the same results as a factory(70kg) bike.Thanks👍
Hi, the size of the frame won't change kinematics (designers usually preserve that). I'm not sure if some brands change the tune of the shock (L, M, H) regarding the frame size, but I don't think they do. In coil shock's equipped frames they change the springrate accordingly to the size. A 100kg rider would require +42% higher springrate in a given bike to achieve the same SAG as the 70kg rider (100/70 = 1.42). Therefore, the bottom-out force will be also 42% higher... But since a 100kg is also 42% heavier than a 70kg, at the end of the day if the SAG is the same the suspension will also feel identical independently of rider weight. Bye
Another great video Andre, glad I watched I always learn something new! Will you please analyze the Rocky Mountain Maiden when you get the chance? Thx and keep it up!
Already build the model of Maiden a couple months ago. Maiden is pretty cool, and it's one of the most braking independent bikes (with an anti-rise very low... 20%). Meaning that braking won't affect the suspension. Anti-squats are also on the low side (around 30% on average), meaning that pedaling efficiency is not the best, but on a DH bike that's not hugely important (the advantage is the low pedal kickback). The progressivity is also good for a DH bike, 50%! Bye :)
Thanks Andre, the braking independence and progressivity are what appeals to me, and the low AS is my concern (I actually thought it was a little higher, around 40% at sag - is your 30% number with a 36t?).... it is a dh bike like you say, but would I have significant pedal bob on sprinting sections? And could I address this by using a 34t, or would that not be small enough to have an impact?
It's for a 36T. You get 0% AS with a 11T rear cog and you get 50% for a 24T cog, for a 30% SAG. With a 34T you increase +10% in AS. You always get bob with a DH bike (because you pedal out the saddle, and your body moves a lot up and down). in this case you have a bit higher pedal bob. But for a Gravity application I think it wont affect much :) Bye
Hi. The design is interesting but it's not great (sorry). The software cannot calculate the Anti-squat because the BB is part of the unsprung mass (the moving part of the suspension). But, I can tell you that the anti-squat will be very low (the chaingrowth is also minimal). So, pedaling is not great in this bike. The braking also affects a bit the suspension due to the high main-pivot (anti-rise a bit higher than 100%). And the progressivity of the bike is around -5% (slightly regressive actually). The good part is the axle path (very rearward, therefore, it absorbs the bumps quite well). Bye
Hi andre! can you make a video that actually eplains about different rear shocks? how they work, old school and new school, who is the most progressive shock etc.. thanks!
I had that on my list but I've been quite busy for doing videos. The short answer is that air shocks with a bigger negative air chamber (not the main chamber) are getting really close to a coil sensitivity, with the option to tune the progressivity with spacers. The bigger negative chamber (eg: EVOL, Debonair) gives the air shock a smooth travel at the begging very similar to a coil. I have several graphics and a math model about this topic, maybe some day I compile this into a video. Regarding the coil spring, you get max sensitivity & heat consistency, however, it's heavy and hard to tune the progressivity (only via compression damping, or in some cases, changing the stiffness of the stop bumper). Regarding dampers it's harder to talk about without data, but I like a lot about the twin-tube philosophy, however a mono-tube can also be very capable. Bye
thanks. can you give at least a small table of shocks (personatly I prefer air) that mentions their progressivity? I got a 2014 Transition covert 650B and with the float R high volume I bottom out all the time, even with one or two spacers on it. I will replace the sleeve to a low volume, but I do not know how much will it help. so I would like to have in mind which shock will be able to compensate for the frame's linearity. have any ideas?
I have the model but I don't have the video. Swoop 170 has an OK pedaling efficiency (anti-squats around 90%) and it has a quite neutral braking (anti-rise 50%). The only problem in my opinion is it's low progressivity. Swoop 170 frame is almost linear (almost 0% progressivity). So, it would be quite easy to bottom-out on bigger impacts. This can be a problem on a 170mm bike where it's supposed to do a more aggresive riding. Bye
Thanks for the answer. Do you have a list of progressivity on all the bikes you have tested other than the list you show in the analyzis-videos? Curious for the progressivity on other bikes as well :)
I would love to see you make your own frame (diagram, not necessarily a physical frame)! It'd be so interesting to see what you create with the knowledge you have from all of your videos where you show the kinematics. Do you ever think you'll make a diagram of some ideas of your own on the program you use at 1:12 ? I'm sure people would be very interested, myself included! :D Let me know what you think.
Yes, I'm planning to do that in a future video. The software is really easy to use. You just need a schematic drawing or a side-view photo with no distortion, then, you identity the pivots and drawn the lines over that picture (like tracing paper!) :) Bye
Hi. The Linkage Software cannot analyse the anti-squat of GT AOS since the BB is part of the unsprung mass and it moves, therefore the classical method of the anti-squat calculation is not valid here. It requires another method. Anyway, I can tell you that GT force has a very rearward axle path for an Enduro bike and it also has a high anti-rise (brake-squat) value (both are due to the high position of the main pivot). GT Force is also linear (slightly regressive in fact). Bye
andrextr olá, André! Agora vi que você é de Portugal, se não estou enganado. Muito obrigado pela resposta! Ainda estou tentando entender os efeitos práticos do anti-rise value...
Thanks l lot for your videos, mate! Looks like that DH bike frames are designed to be more progressive to work with Coil Springs. While enduro bikes are less progressive to work better with Air Shocks. What do you think about Spec Enduro Evo? Does it make sense to have a spring on linear enduro frame?
I will talk about the air spring progressivity in a future video, but against the common belief, an air spring shock usually don't require more force than an equivalent coil spring. They are indeed progressive at the end of the travel, but they also have less mid-stroke support (flat middle), therefore, overall, they don't require more force to bottom-out than a coil spring. This is particularly true for older air shock models (even with max air spacers). The newer ones with a bigger negative chamber volume can indeed require more force to bottom-out than a coil, when spacers are included in main chamber (eg: Evol, Debonair, Vivid air, Vorsprung Corset air sleeve, etc). See this intuitive picture: ( ep1.pinkbike.org/p4pb13280494/p4pb13280494.jpg ) . So, given this, IMO, DH bikes have more progressivity because they have to deal with bigger impacts. Regaring the Enduro EVO, and what I said previously, it would require similar force to bottom-out when compared to the air spring Enduro. Bye :)
This is the best place for info about bicycle suspension. It would be very interesting to see the leverage ratio curve and performance of the Structure Cycleworks SCW 1. Especially considering what the designer is saying about the performance. I will copy what he wrote directly here from post nr 50 at this link: forums.mtbr.com/general-discussion/funky-linkage-bike-1053001.html """The fact that Structure's kinematic parameters are "right down the middle" isn't by coincidence. When I came on board with Structure, I spent the first several months creating a database of geometry parameters that currently stands at 19,298 data points and analyzing the dynamics of a few hundred existing bikes. I selected seventy of my favourite designs and weighted them by: 1. public review ratings, 2. press review ratings (excluding reviews that I was fairly certain were bought), 3. my own fondness for them. Using these weighted numbers, I treated the whole world's experience like my own test laboratory and created numerous weighted-average curves for almost every design parameter. Thankfully, they all agreed fairly closely - i.e. it looks like we really can zero in on preferred designs."""""" The performance of that bike could be the holy grail of specs to go after in my opinoin. Lastly I have 2 questions: I am doing a machine bachelor thesis closely related to bicycle suspension and air shocks. Is it possible to get a hold of your latest "Table of progressivity" to use in my thesis? And do you have any sources readily available for anything that you claim?
What program are you using to calculate the suspension curves etc.? I would like to make a small modification to my frame shock mount, and am wondering what effect (if it would matter at all) would it have.
can you give please a small table of shocks (personatly I prefer air) that mentions their progressivity? I got a 2014 Transition covert 650B and with the float R high volume I bottom out all the time, even with one or two spacers in it. I will replace the sleeve to a low volume, but I do not know how much will it help. so I would like to have in mind which shock will be able to compensate for the frame's linearity. have any ideas?
Covert is fully linear (around 0% progressivity), so it will be easy to bottom-out. I built a shock simulator some months ago, but since the limited data available about the internal sizes and volumes of the shocks in the market it's not possible to make the requested table. However, I can tell you that most older air spring shocks have low progressivities. I can also tell you that decreasing the volume of the main chamber (using spacers) will obviously increase the final progressivty, but, less obvious than that, is that INCREASING the negative air chamber can also increase the progressivity (indirectly). And by that, I am talking about the Vorsprung Corset air sleeve, or the new Fox EVOL, etc. With an air sleeve like that it requires more pressure to achieve the same SAG, and if on top of that you use the maximum amount of spacers, you get more progressivity overall. Another advantage of these chambers is the improved sensitivity. You can see the model graph here: www.pinkbike.com/photo/13274299/ You can get more info here: vorsprungsuspension.com/pages/corset-air-sleeve-installation-setup (PS: I'm not affiliated with corset, lol). Bye
Keep in mind that even with those tricks, it reduce your problem but it won't fully solve it. According to my brief calculations, even with a very progressive air spring shock, you only add + 20-40% progressivity to your bike. In your case you will end up with a bike similar to an "average" enduro bike with a normal air shock.
Already did! In the first day it came out :D It's indeed quite progressive (around 50%). Slightly above the average. Check it out here: BYe th-cam.com/video/V7MEskfGjvE/w-d-xo.html
Thank you for the great clip! I have a question though - how one can determine if the frame is progressive, and how much? Is there a rule of thumb that can help?
There's no easy way. Since most bike manufacturers (except Norco) don't share this info (leverage ratio), it's not possible to estimate the progressivity. The only way is to simulate it using this software (Linkage X3), or you can look at this blog: linkagedesign.blogspot.com/
Hi. I already have the videos for those bikes you can search in my account (not Tues vs V10 in that order, but you can compare them afterwards). Both bikes are very good. Tues is a bit more progressive and has a bit more braking independency. Main difference would be the frame design/construction/prices & others. Bye
+andrextr oh yes thanks! Also though could you make a video or say what the propain rage is like I want to know if the suspension on it is progressive, thanks
Hi. That bike has a good braking, but the pedaling is not the best due to the main pivot being very low, near the BB (resulting anti-squats around 50%). Thus a shock with climbing switch might be good to reduce pedal bob. The progressivity is around 0% (meaning it's very linear). For a 130 trail bike it's normal to have a low progressivity, but it could be a bit higher. Bye
OK, already build the model for TR500, it has a progressivity around 55% (with the anti-rise and anti-squat both around 100%) . Knolly's bikes usually are also progressive, I will check that later and try to make the video next week. Bye.
It's under the average for an enduro bike. Most enduro's are around 15-30%. Then you got a couple of them around 40-70% (like canyon strive, nomad and YT Capra). Bye
Ola andre. Tenho uma commencal meta am v4 Podes me dizer qual o sag que devo ter no amortecedor para fazer 25% de curso na roda traseira?Nao consegui perceber pelo grafico.E acho que a bike afunda muito com 25% sag medido no amortecedor ou seja sem saltos grandes o curso anda sempre perto do fim de curso. Bons videos e muito boas explicacoes Parabens pelo trabalho.
Olá Hugo. A Meta AM não é muito progressiva portanto o SAG do amortecedor é quase o mesmo que na roda (neste caso, 23% no amortecedor equivale a 25% na roda). O "problema" de ela chegar ao final do curso é mesmo esse, não é muito progressiva, é facil de usar o curso todo sem grandes saltos. Podes aumentar um pouco da compressão do amortecedor para ficar um pouco mais firme, e meter um espaçador para endurecer um pouco mais o final do curso. De qualquer modo, o ideal é usares o curso todo nas voltas normais, sem sentires muitas porradas em seco. Abraço
andrextr top Muito obrigado. Vou ter de trabalhar so com a compressão pois ainda nao consegui trocar o xfusion de origem ( que é muito fraquinho) e não encontro tokens para ele.
Como costumo dizer na brincadeira, podes meter cimento lá dentro eheh :) Para a malta do ghetto, 5 a 10mL de massa viscosa faz o mesmo efeito de um token (mas não é tão "clean").. Abrço
Hi, Atroz is a singlepivot, and according to the position of the main pivot (on top of the chainring), it will have a good anti-squat (~100%) for a singlering setup. So, it pedals good. Singlepivots like Atroz have an anti-rise of around 90% and progressivity is also low (it's linear). Therefore, for a XC/Trail use it's an OK bike since it has good pedaling and since for that usage you d'ont need much progressivity. Bye
Hi Andre, I make a lot of calculs on my bikes and i have already make a lot of graphics before to know that a software exist fot this (i work on Excel). I push the exercise to take in concideration the air "spring force" of the IFP in my tables. But, i don't find the path to calculate the progressivity. Can you help on this point ? Regards and thanks for your job ;)
I already built an air shock simulator in Excel with the option to consider the IFP pressure (and both negative and positve air shock volume), send me you mail and I will send you the file... I will make a special episode in the future to share the file with everyone :) To calculate the overall progressivity just make a straight line starting at zero and passing in the SAG point, then you compare the bottom-out force between real graph and that line (like I did in this video at minute 6:20). Bye
Hi! I have a GT force x and it is really easy to bottom out. it is a regressive linkage design. is there any way to make it more progressive? or should i just pump up the shock a bit more?
It's possible but sometimes not easy, it depends on the adjustability of your fork & shock. You can use volume spacers on an air fork, or you can increase the high speed compression a bit to give more bottom-out resistance on big impacts. You can also try to reduce the rear shock progressivity in the same way. In my experience with the YT Tues from friends, sometimes you feel the fork bottoming out quite hard on bigger impacts while the rear suspension feels that is not bottoming out at all...
Which bikes would you recommend for heavy riders 100+ kg? I mean, I guess there are some types of suspension linkage systems that would be better for heavy riders, or am I wrong?
Hi Michael, actually that's kind of a myth. An heavier rider don't require more progressivity. All it requires is more pressure / springrate in shock. If your bike is tuned for a 30% SAG for your weight, then it will feel very similar as a 70 kg rider on the same bike with the same SAG. Progressivity is more related to how "hardcore" you ride and not so much on how heavier you are. Bye :)
nice video, but there is little mistake, at the end of video, on the chart, downhill bikes are 100% more progressive (20% x 120% = 24%,20 x 200% = 40%)
Heheh nice catch. Since I express the progressivity already as a percentage when I say more +20% I'm referring to absolute values and not relative. By the way, the progressivity is just how much extra force is required to bottom-out the bike in comparison with a fully linear frame, for the same SAG. Enduro bikes on average take +20% force to bottom-out when comparing to a linear bike, and most DH bikes take 40% more force comparing to an hypothetical linear bike. A good example of a fully linear frame is the Orange Alpine 160. In that case the progressivity is 0%. Bye
Jesús Ortiz You can get a similar effect by adding tokens or by designing a progressive bike (by tweaking the leverage ratio). However, the effect of tokens is kind of limited and if you want a truly progressive bike you must use a progressive frame. At the end of the day the total progressivity of the bike is the sum of frame' and shock' progressivity. Bye
That's physics. When the shock is compressing, the piston moves up and the internal volume decreases. The lower the internal volume the more the internal pressure rises. When the volume is almost zero the pressure is extremely high (Pressure is proportional to 1/V). The token won't affect much the volume at SAG (percentually), however at the end of the travel where the space is already low, if you place a token the remaining space will be even lower, so the pressures rises a lot, making the shock firmer and harder to bottom-out. This is why tokens won't affect much the first part of the travel, and only affect the final ramp up.
Unfortunately you are right... I am not talking specifically about my videos, its global... from flat earthers to presidents suggesting injecting desinfectant to clean a virus from lungs, we live in a crazy world of fools :) cheers
@@andrextr yes it s plainly stupid but in this situation he is not even the most stupid...governments locking poeples and sheeps believing this "flue" is as deadly as ww2 without checking any stat are the worst there. I would be a ww2 veteran i would just not swallow it...ironicaly there are another time the ones that could potentialy lost there life another time (and not our sissies generation).
I like the part about the back wheel has more sag than at the shock when progressivity is high. I'll set my sag a bit lower at the shock when my frame geometry is set more progressively; how much lower....I don't know the math. Got the Ride-9 adjustment system and I'll be playing with that alot. These vids are done very well and I love this information! Just hope I'm actually understanding it😄
Although it's all numbers and science, it's very interesting, usefull, clear and precise . Keep it up !
So nice thanks for all the helpful Videos
Intressting, Its the Same linkage Geometrie Like Focus FOLD.
Learned a lot from these series of videos! Thank you! If you get a chance do you think you can do the pivot switchblade?
Hi man, great video's! how do you get all this specific and accurate information? do you know the exact position of the pivots? brand keep this a secret right? Keep up the good work!
Great video. If you can do a comparison between Scott Spark and Genius it would be great.Also a comparison between 70kg and 100kg.
Do XL bikes need different shocks to get the same results as a factory(70kg) bike.Thanks👍
Hi, the size of the frame won't change kinematics (designers usually preserve that). I'm not sure if some brands change the tune of the shock (L, M, H) regarding the frame size, but I don't think they do. In coil shock's equipped frames they change the springrate accordingly to the size. A 100kg rider would require +42% higher springrate in a given bike to achieve the same SAG as the 70kg rider (100/70 = 1.42). Therefore, the bottom-out force will be also 42% higher... But since a 100kg is also 42% heavier than a 70kg, at the end of the day if the SAG is the same the suspension will also feel identical independently of rider weight. Bye
Thx man, wonderfull guide :)
Another great video Andre, glad I watched I always learn something new! Will you please analyze the Rocky Mountain Maiden when you get the chance? Thx and keep it up!
Already build the model of Maiden a couple months ago. Maiden is pretty cool, and it's one of the most braking independent bikes (with an anti-rise very low... 20%). Meaning that braking won't affect the suspension. Anti-squats are also on the low side (around 30% on average), meaning that pedaling efficiency is not the best, but on a DH bike that's not hugely important (the advantage is the low pedal kickback). The progressivity is also good for a DH bike, 50%! Bye :)
Thanks Andre, the braking independence and progressivity are what appeals to me, and the low AS is my concern (I actually thought it was a little higher, around 40% at sag - is your 30% number with a 36t?).... it is a dh bike like you say, but would I have significant pedal bob on sprinting sections? And could I address this by using a 34t, or would that not be small enough to have an impact?
It's for a 36T. You get 0% AS with a 11T rear cog and you get 50% for a 24T cog, for a 30% SAG. With a 34T you increase +10% in AS. You always get bob with a DH bike (because you pedal out the saddle, and your body moves a lot up and down). in this case you have a bit higher pedal bob. But for a Gravity application I think it wont affect much :) Bye
Great video. Thanks
awesome work
These are awesome - do you keep a current "Table of progressivity" posted up anywhere as you add new frames in?
No... I don't have the table published... But I should have done that :)
Please do a suspension analysis of a 2011 mongoose boot'r a rather interesting design
Hi. The design is interesting but it's not great (sorry). The software cannot calculate the Anti-squat because the BB is part of the unsprung mass (the moving part of the suspension). But, I can tell you that the anti-squat will be very low (the chaingrowth is also minimal). So, pedaling is not great in this bike. The braking also affects a bit the suspension due to the high main-pivot (anti-rise a bit higher than 100%). And the progressivity of the bike is around -5% (slightly regressive actually). The good part is the axle path (very rearward, therefore, it absorbs the bumps quite well). Bye
Excelente
Can you make the analysis of the Identiti Mettle Horst Link enduro bike ?
Hi. Yes. Drop me a request on my website www.andrextr.com/ thanks!
Yayyyy new video :D
:D eheh This things take like 1 hour to do per minute of video... :D
I can absolutely imagine ;) Great job you're doing there!
Hi andre! can you make a video that actually eplains about different rear shocks? how they work, old school and new school, who is the most progressive shock etc.. thanks!
I had that on my list but I've been quite busy for doing videos. The short answer is that air shocks with a bigger negative air chamber (not the main chamber) are getting really close to a coil sensitivity, with the option to tune the progressivity with spacers. The bigger negative chamber (eg: EVOL, Debonair) gives the air shock a smooth travel at the begging very similar to a coil. I have several graphics and a math model about this topic, maybe some day I compile this into a video. Regarding the coil spring, you get max sensitivity & heat consistency, however, it's heavy and hard to tune the progressivity (only via compression damping, or in some cases, changing the stiffness of the stop bumper). Regarding dampers it's harder to talk about without data, but I like a lot about the twin-tube philosophy, however a mono-tube can also be very capable. Bye
thanks. can you give at least a small table of shocks (personatly I prefer air) that mentions their progressivity? I got a 2014 Transition covert 650B and with the float R high volume I bottom out all the time, even with one or two spacers on it. I will replace the sleeve to a low volume, but I do not know how much will it help. so I would like to have in mind which shock will be able to compensate for the frame's linearity. have any ideas?
Have you tested the Radon Swoop 170? Would be great to see how that bike comes out from your analyzes.
I have the model but I don't have the video. Swoop 170 has an OK pedaling efficiency (anti-squats around 90%) and it has a quite neutral braking (anti-rise 50%). The only problem in my opinion is it's low progressivity. Swoop 170 frame is almost linear (almost 0% progressivity). So, it would be quite easy to bottom-out on bigger impacts. This can be a problem on a 170mm bike where it's supposed to do a more aggresive riding. Bye
Thanks for the answer. Do you have a list of progressivity on all the bikes you have tested other than the list you show in the analyzis-videos? Curious for the progressivity on other bikes as well :)
I would love to see you make your own frame (diagram, not necessarily a physical frame)! It'd be so interesting to see what you create with the knowledge you have from all of your videos where you show the kinematics. Do you ever think you'll make a diagram of some ideas of your own on the program you use at 1:12 ? I'm sure people would be very interested, myself included! :D Let me know what you think.
Yes, I'm planning to do that in a future video. The software is really easy to use. You just need a schematic drawing or a side-view photo with no distortion, then, you identity the pivots and drawn the lines over that picture (like tracing paper!) :) Bye
Of course there are some tricks but that's the main picture :) Bye
andrextr Awesome! What program is it?
www.bikechecker.com Linkage X3
Hello, man! Excellent as always! Do you plan to do a simulation on the GT AOS system? I would be very interested in that! Cheers!
Hi. The Linkage Software cannot analyse the anti-squat of GT AOS since the BB is part of the unsprung mass and it moves, therefore the classical method of the anti-squat calculation is not valid here. It requires another method. Anyway, I can tell you that GT force has a very rearward axle path for an Enduro bike and it also has a high anti-rise (brake-squat) value (both are due to the high position of the main pivot). GT Force is also linear (slightly regressive in fact). Bye
andrextr olá, André! Agora vi que você é de Portugal, se não estou enganado. Muito obrigado pela resposta! Ainda estou tentando entender os efeitos práticos do anti-rise value...
Thanks l lot for your videos, mate!
Looks like that DH bike frames are designed to be more progressive to work with Coil Springs. While enduro bikes are less progressive to work better with Air Shocks.
What do you think about Spec Enduro Evo? Does it make sense to have a spring on linear enduro frame?
I will talk about the air spring progressivity in a future video, but against the common belief, an air spring shock usually don't require more force than an equivalent coil spring. They are indeed progressive at the end of the travel, but they also have less mid-stroke support (flat middle), therefore, overall, they don't require more force to bottom-out than a coil spring. This is particularly true for older air shock models (even with max air spacers). The newer ones with a bigger negative chamber volume can indeed require more force to bottom-out than a coil, when spacers are included in main chamber (eg: Evol, Debonair, Vivid air, Vorsprung Corset air sleeve, etc). See this intuitive picture: ( ep1.pinkbike.org/p4pb13280494/p4pb13280494.jpg ) . So, given this, IMO, DH bikes have more progressivity because they have to deal with bigger impacts. Regaring the Enduro EVO, and what I said previously, it would require similar force to bottom-out when compared to the air spring Enduro. Bye :)
Okay thanks so much for the help
This is the best place for info about bicycle suspension. It would be very interesting to see the leverage ratio curve and performance of the Structure Cycleworks SCW 1. Especially considering what the designer is saying about the performance. I will copy what he wrote directly here from post nr 50 at this link: forums.mtbr.com/general-discussion/funky-linkage-bike-1053001.html """The fact that Structure's kinematic parameters are "right down the middle" isn't by coincidence. When I came on board with Structure, I spent the first several months creating a database of geometry parameters that currently stands at 19,298 data points and analyzing the dynamics of a few hundred existing bikes. I selected seventy of my favourite designs and weighted them by: 1. public review ratings, 2. press review ratings (excluding reviews that I was fairly certain were bought), 3. my own fondness for them. Using these weighted numbers, I treated the whole world's experience like my own test laboratory and created numerous weighted-average curves for almost every design parameter. Thankfully, they all agreed fairly closely - i.e. it looks like we really can zero in on preferred designs."""""" The performance of that bike could be the holy grail of specs to go after in my opinoin. Lastly I have 2 questions: I am doing a machine bachelor thesis closely related to bicycle suspension and air shocks. Is it possible to get a hold of your latest "Table of progressivity" to use in my thesis? And do you have any sources readily available for anything that you claim?
What program are you using to calculate the suspension curves etc.? I would like to make a small modification to my frame shock mount, and am wondering what effect (if it would matter at all) would it have.
Piotr Sulej Linkage X3 from bikechecker.com
can you give please a small table of shocks (personatly I prefer air)
that mentions their progressivity? I got a 2014 Transition covert 650B
and with the float R high volume I bottom out all the time, even with
one or two spacers in it. I will replace the sleeve to a low volume, but
I do not know how much will it help. so I would like to have in mind
which shock will be able to compensate for the frame's linearity. have
any ideas?
Covert is fully linear (around 0% progressivity), so it will be easy to bottom-out. I built a shock simulator some months ago, but since the limited data available about the internal sizes and volumes of the shocks in the market it's not possible to make the requested table. However, I can tell you that most older air spring shocks have low progressivities. I can also tell you that decreasing the volume of the main chamber (using spacers) will obviously increase the final progressivty, but, less obvious than that, is that INCREASING the negative air chamber can also increase the progressivity (indirectly). And by that, I am talking about the Vorsprung Corset air sleeve, or the new Fox EVOL, etc. With an air sleeve like that it requires more pressure to achieve the same SAG, and if on top of that you use the maximum amount of spacers, you get more progressivity overall. Another advantage of these chambers is the improved sensitivity. You can see the model graph here: www.pinkbike.com/photo/13274299/ You can get more info here: vorsprungsuspension.com/pages/corset-air-sleeve-installation-setup (PS: I'm not affiliated with corset, lol). Bye
Keep in mind that even with those tricks, it reduce your problem but it won't fully solve it. According to my brief calculations, even with a very progressive air spring shock, you only add + 20-40% progressivity to your bike. In your case you will end up with a bike similar to an "average" enduro bike with a normal air shock.
thanks alot!!! I probably need to change the frame.. thank you!
Really intresting
You should look at the canyon sender (who is really progressif)
Already did! In the first day it came out :D It's indeed quite progressive (around 50%). Slightly above the average. Check it out here: BYe
th-cam.com/video/V7MEskfGjvE/w-d-xo.html
+andrextr aha sorry i didn't saw it
Thank you for the great clip! I have a question though - how one can determine if the frame is progressive, and how much? Is there a rule of thumb that can help?
There's no easy way. Since most bike manufacturers (except Norco) don't share this info (leverage ratio), it's not possible to estimate the progressivity. The only way is to simulate it using this software (Linkage X3), or you can look at this blog: linkagedesign.blogspot.com/
Could you do a video of the V10 vs another progressive DH bike such as the YT Tues etc
Hi. I already have the videos for those bikes you can search in my account (not Tues vs V10 in that order, but you can compare them afterwards). Both bikes are very good. Tues is a bit more progressive and has a bit more braking independency. Main difference would be the frame design/construction/prices & others. Bye
+andrextr oh yes thanks! Also though could you make a video or say what the propain rage is like I want to know if the suspension on it is progressive, thanks
Yes, Rage is progressive. Around 30-35% progressivity. It's close to the average for a DH bike. Bye
Which frame is this? Who is produced that frame? Tnx
will you be planning on doing a kinamatics breakdown for the white t130 rs?
Hi. That bike has a good braking, but the pedaling is not the best due to the main pivot being very low, near the BB (resulting anti-squats around 50%). Thus a shock with climbing switch might be good to reduce pedal bob. The progressivity is around 0% (meaning it's very linear). For a 130 trail bike it's normal to have a low progressivity, but it could be a bit higher. Bye
Doo Transition TR 500 vs Knolly podium !! pls 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
OK, already build the model for TR500, it has a progressivity around 55% (with the anti-rise and anti-squat both around 100%) . Knolly's bikes usually are also progressive, I will check that later and try to make the video next week. Bye.
Done! th-cam.com/video/ZvxA2bwsDpM/w-d-xo.html
Thanks Awesome :D
Would the Knolly warden be quite a progressive suspension design for an enduro bike then? I think your other video said it was around 30%
It's under the average for an enduro bike. Most enduro's are around 15-30%. Then you got a couple of them around 40-70% (like canyon strive, nomad and YT Capra). Bye
Ola andre. Tenho uma commencal meta am v4 Podes me dizer qual o sag que devo ter no amortecedor para fazer 25% de curso na roda traseira?Nao consegui perceber pelo grafico.E acho que a bike afunda muito com 25% sag medido no amortecedor ou seja sem saltos grandes o curso anda sempre perto do fim de curso.
Bons videos e muito boas explicacoes Parabens pelo trabalho.
Olá Hugo. A Meta AM não é muito progressiva portanto o SAG do amortecedor é quase o mesmo que na roda (neste caso, 23% no amortecedor equivale a 25% na roda). O "problema" de ela chegar ao final do curso é mesmo esse, não é muito progressiva, é facil de usar o curso todo sem grandes saltos. Podes aumentar um pouco da compressão do amortecedor para ficar um pouco mais firme, e meter um espaçador para endurecer um pouco mais o final do curso. De qualquer modo, o ideal é usares o curso todo nas voltas normais, sem sentires muitas porradas em seco. Abraço
andrextr
top
Muito obrigado. Vou ter de trabalhar so com a compressão pois ainda nao consegui trocar o xfusion de origem ( que é muito fraquinho) e não encontro tokens para ele.
Como costumo dizer na brincadeira, podes meter cimento lá dentro eheh :) Para a malta do ghetto, 5 a 10mL de massa viscosa faz o mesmo efeito de um token (mas não é tão "clean").. Abrço
andrextr lol
Tanks
andrextr vou curtir assim ate o trocar por um monarch RT3 debonair ou RC3 plus debonair com o tune certo M/L para a bike. :)
can you do the kinamatics of a diamondback atroz comp? please
Hi, Atroz is a singlepivot, and according to the position of the main pivot (on top of the chainring), it will have a good anti-squat (~100%) for a singlering setup. So, it pedals good. Singlepivots like Atroz have an anti-rise of around 90% and progressivity is also low (it's linear). Therefore, for a XC/Trail use it's an OK bike since it has good pedaling and since for that usage you d'ont need much progressivity. Bye
Hi Andre,
I make a lot of calculs on my bikes and i have already make a lot of graphics before to know that a software exist fot this (i work on Excel).
I push the exercise to take in concideration the air "spring force" of the IFP in my tables.
But, i don't find the path to calculate the progressivity.
Can you help on this point ?
Regards and thanks for your job ;)
I already built an air shock simulator in Excel with the option to consider the IFP pressure (and both negative and positve air shock volume), send me you mail and I will send you the file... I will make a special episode in the future to share the file with everyone :) To calculate the overall progressivity just make a straight line starting at zero and passing in the SAG point, then you compare the bottom-out force between real graph and that line (like I did in this video at minute 6:20). Bye
+andrextr Tanks a lot. I'll send you my mail as soon as possible. See you soon. Degards
How progressive is author ninja dh team?
Hi! I have a GT force x and it is really easy to bottom out. it is a regressive linkage design. is there any way to make it more progressive? or should i just pump up the shock a bit more?
Inserting some spacers inside will help (a bit at least)... Increasing the pressure also helps but reduces small bump compliance. Bye
Thank you, I will try that. Great videos btw 👍
will it be possible to make a balance between fork and shock when the rear has a very progressive linkage?
It's possible but sometimes not easy, it depends on the adjustability of your fork & shock. You can use volume spacers on an air fork, or you can increase the high speed compression a bit to give more bottom-out resistance on big impacts. You can also try to reduce the rear shock progressivity in the same way. In my experience with the YT Tues from friends, sometimes you feel the fork bottoming out quite hard on bigger impacts while the rear suspension feels that is not bottoming out at all...
thanks for reply.
thanks for kindness always.
Which bikes would you recommend for heavy riders 100+ kg?
I mean, I guess there are some types of suspension linkage systems that would be better for heavy riders, or am I wrong?
Hi Michael, actually that's kind of a myth. An heavier rider don't require more progressivity. All it requires is more pressure / springrate in shock. If your bike is tuned for a 30% SAG for your weight, then it will feel very similar as a 70 kg rider on the same bike with the same SAG. Progressivity is more related to how "hardcore" you ride and not so much on how heavier you are. Bye :)
what software did you use to draw and analyze the bikes?
+Oscar Olguin Linkage X3. www.bikechecker.com
Can someone remind me how to calculate progressivity represented as a percentage?
Check in this other video:
How progressive is your mountain bike? (MTB suspension Ep.20)
Any new video coming soon?
Don't have much free time now, (neither for riding mtb :( ) , but I will try to make more videos soon. Bye
How you calculate the progressive present?
By comparing the bottom-out force to a fully linear bike (for the same SAG).
nice video, but there is little mistake, at the end of video, on the chart, downhill bikes are 100% more progressive (20% x 120% = 24%,20 x 200% = 40%)
Heheh nice catch. Since I express the progressivity already as a percentage when I say more +20% I'm referring to absolute values and not relative. By the way, the progressivity is just how much extra force is required to bottom-out the bike in comparison with a fully linear frame, for the same SAG. Enduro bikes on average take +20% force to bottom-out when comparing to a linear bike, and most DH bikes take 40% more force comparing to an hypothetical linear bike. A good example of a fully linear frame is the Orange Alpine 160. In that case the progressivity is 0%. Bye
what program is that
+GAMER4861 Linkage X3 and excel
Andre,
I don´t understand why system progressivity is not the same as the progressivity you get by adding tokens to a linear system.
Please help! ;)
Jesús Ortiz You can get a similar effect by adding tokens or by designing a progressive bike (by tweaking the leverage ratio). However, the effect of tokens is kind of limited and if you want a truly progressive bike you must use a progressive frame. At the end of the day the total progressivity of the bike is the sum of frame' and shock' progressivity. Bye
But I don't get why tokens do not affect the pressure to have the same sag, as a progressive frame does. thanks!
That's physics. When the shock is compressing, the piston moves up and the internal volume decreases. The lower the internal volume the more the internal pressure rises. When the volume is almost zero the pressure is extremely high (Pressure is proportional to 1/V). The token won't affect much the volume at SAG (percentually), however at the end of the travel where the space is already low, if you place a token the remaining space will be even lower, so the pressures rises a lot, making the shock firmer and harder to bottom-out. This is why tokens won't affect much the first part of the travel, and only affect the final ramp up.
More smart you are, less follower you have. Hope to live in a smarter world.
Unfortunately you are right... I am not talking specifically about my videos, its global... from flat earthers to presidents suggesting injecting desinfectant to clean a virus from lungs, we live in a crazy world of fools :) cheers
@@andrextr yes it s plainly stupid but in this situation he is not even the most stupid...governments locking poeples and sheeps believing this "flue" is as deadly as ww2 without checking any stat are the worst there. I would be a ww2 veteran i would just not swallow it...ironicaly there are another time the ones that could potentialy lost there life another time (and not our sissies generation).
non si capisce niente nella traduzione in lingua italiana,silvano.
Mi dispiace, ma io sono portoghese, non so come parlare italiano... Ciao, andré.