Seriously embarassing to realize that so many people who think they know Jazz music cannot appreciate Ornette Coleman sixty years after he first broke through. Gotta take those earplugs out of your soul and learn the real meaning of the word "listen." Of course, this takes humility, which is pretty fucking rare out there.
@@lawrencecollins3190 I'm just concerned that a young generation learning about Jazz would even be exposed to such bullshit as the notion that Ornette was a "fraud." Extremely irresponsible to suggest it as a possible opinion. If you can't dig it, OK. But a "charlatan?" Yikes!
@@grawakendream8980 You have to be a bit more specific than "a lot of people." What exactly did his detractors object to? If you go back & take a look, it was ridiculous nonsense.
Ornette,in my opinion, was one of the most courageous musicians of any kind.He found a new way of self-expression that has had a world-changing effect on all contemporary music for over the last 60 years. I thought the choice of background music for this piece was,well---kinda weird.
I was introduced to Coleman decades ago, through Pat Metheny. It blew my mind. I don't know whether he was a genius or not, I just know I enjoy it. Ymmv.
All Prophets get ridiculed at first in the countries or home towns but get appreciated by few somewhere else, they come back one day and all of a sudden everyone worship him, actually wanting to be him or her! One elder in South Africa, a retired Jazz musician, bassist/guitarist introduced me to the music of Ornette Coleman and I loved it because it was all different from what I had about jazz before. I said this man is a Genius!!!
He freed the rhythm section from changes so you had time no changes which was very influential on the second Miles Davis quintet. For me it will always be a kind of meta jazz that threw up a lot of starkly beautiful and exciting moments but also a lot of crap.
For some reason Ornette's music was the first jazz I really got into. As with all art and music it's all a matter of individual taste. Some people love the songs of Cliff Richard but it's not for me! Thanks for your channel which I find interesting and entertaining. Keep up the good work.
The early opposition to Coleman showed how parochial many of the critics were: it was as if the concept of an avant-garde was quite unknown to them. The support of John Lewis was crucial, as he and the Modern Jazz Quartet were very popular with a middle-brow audience, and the MJQ recording of "Lonely Woman" helped enormously - it was my introduction to Coleman, whose music I loved from the start. I don't think that Coleman regarded himself as an innovator - just as someone who had his own style and was determined to see where it took him. At the Five Spot, his group played opposite a more conventional band, the Art Farmer/Gigi Gryce quintet. Aware that many in the audience were there to listen only to him, Coleman addressed them with praise for the Farmer group, and encouraged them to listen to both groups with equal attention and respect. I believe that he was rather embarrassed by the titles given to his LPs, as he didn't see himself as a deliberate innovator.
Ok… Ornette was indeed a visionary. An often unlistenable visionary, just as even Coltrane’s incessant blowing was both visionary and sometimes unlistenable. Ultimately, it’s all about what turns you on. When I was a teen I was listening to Ornette Coleman. Nowadays I’m more likely to dig on Dexter Gordon.
Last night, I was listening to Ornette (Soapsuds) after listening to Lester Young (Aladdin recordings). Same experience. Same pleasure. Same exploration of everything that makes Jazz music still important.
I don' hear his innovative ,more open, language in the actual jazz scene. What he was doing was trying, with his melodic constant serach,a way out to the clche of the be-bop idiom.
But only if this guy really digs Ayler. Don't need any more insults to giant cultural figures, like even using the word "charlatan" in the same sentence as "Ornette." Shameful. If you can't dig the music, just assume that someone with a sixty year career must be speaking to somebody. I grew up with people that mocked Louis Armstrong.
Well , i respect but dont gravitate to his music . European classical music already covevered a tonality and free time , from Varecse to John Cage , but the jazz players put it through the blues
Totally different. They didn’t sound like that. And what Cage did “Aleatoric music “ he would say is not free or improvisation. So ??? Ornette is first a foremost a blues musician. That’s the context he was coming out of
@@p.r.h.7283 That is what i said , he filtered post modern european concepts through the blues .most notably abandoned Afro diasporic concepts of call responce , dance drum concepts , for a free time , space and sound base , linear melodic aproach , that the europeans explored first , melodic concepts from other cultures like India , or North Africa , which is differant than West Africa concepts. The dancers knew , half the jazz players knew. It should have its own catagory , its a mistake to push " free jazz" onto jazz that retained call responce drum dance concepts. Ornette never could swing hard , its an injustice to him to suggest he could swing up bop
@@p.r.h.7283 I rember i heard a record by Andrew Cyril , Milford Graves and two other noted " free drummers " , they know how to play straight , but this was free , and i compared it to a university percusion group playing an avant guarde score for percusion. The similarities were very close , but the jazz free drummers had a looser aproach , yet , they were closer in concept than compared to those Art Blakey Sabu percusiin records. It causes great conflict to try to force avant guarde jazz into the groove based call responce , even bar forms coming from dance drum tradition . They are differant idioms
He definitely OFFENDED SENSIBILITIES. Saw him on SNL, introduced by UNCLE MILTIE, of all ppl. To tell the truth, l liked the 'Skies of America' and 'Science Fiction'.
Agreed. Ornette was the Schoenberg of Jazz. Is that supposed to be an insult? The greatest musicians (Glenn Gould, Pierre Boulez, Yehudi Menuhin, LaSalle Quartet, etc. etc) devoted their great energies to the music of Schoenberg. But of course, taste is personal.
@@leeroc1 I love the sound of nature vocabulary, not ugly conceptions builted in Dr. Frankenstein laboratories. Read about George Russell's statement at lydian cromathic conception.
Seriously embarassing to realize that so many people who think they know Jazz music cannot appreciate Ornette Coleman sixty years after he first broke through. Gotta take those earplugs out of your soul and learn the real meaning of the word "listen." Of course, this takes humility, which is pretty fucking rare out there.
Great comment 👍🏿 👌🏿
@@lawrencecollins3190 I'm just concerned that a young generation learning about Jazz would even be exposed to such bullshit as the notion that Ornette was a "fraud." Extremely irresponsible to suggest it as a possible opinion. If you can't dig it, OK. But a "charlatan?" Yikes!
@@robertpolevoi8630 these silly videos titles are just there to generate views.
@@rhythmking10 I know that. But this is irresponsible. And frankly stupid.
@@rhythmking10 I know that. But this is irresponsible. And frankly stupid.
How, in any respect, could Ornette Coleman have been a fraud? The notion is absolutely absurd.
lot of people criticized what he did
@@grawakendream8980 You have to be a bit more specific than "a lot of people." What exactly did his detractors object to? If you go back & take a look, it was ridiculous nonsense.
Ornette,in my opinion, was one of the most courageous musicians of any kind.He found a new way of self-expression that has had a world-changing effect on all contemporary music for over the last 60 years.
I thought the choice of background music for this piece was,well---kinda weird.
lol
I love Ornette Coleman ,I have all of his records. Ornette Lives ! Dig it
Great documentary 👏🏿
'Lonely Woman ' !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ornette Coleman the pride of Fort Worth, TX
Interesting channel ……subbed
Thanks!
I was introduced to Coleman decades ago, through Pat Metheny. It blew my mind. I don't know whether he was a genius or not, I just know I enjoy it. Ymmv.
Ornette was definitely a visionary. Genius.
All Prophets get ridiculed at first in the countries or home towns but get appreciated by few somewhere else, they come back one day and all of a sudden everyone worship him, actually wanting to be him or her! One elder in South Africa, a retired Jazz musician, bassist/guitarist introduced me to the music of Ornette Coleman and I loved it because it was all different from what I had about jazz before. I said this man is a Genius!!!
Miles Davis later on during the fusion phase of his career was influenced by Ornette Coleman.
Great video, but did you have to mention Yoko Ono?
exactly.. '' I wonder what Carlos Santana have to say about this?''' ha ha ha
He did - but no mention of Pat Metheny?
Miles had an extraordinarily quiet speaking voice and was often misquoted.
He freed the rhythm section from changes so you had time no changes which was very influential on the second Miles Davis quintet. For me it will always be a kind of meta jazz that threw up a lot of starkly beautiful and exciting moments but also a lot of crap.
Pat Metheny said that when he first heard Ornette Coleman on a record he was taken by it. That means Ornette Coleman was genius.
For some reason Ornette's music was the first jazz I really got into. As with all art and music it's all a matter of individual taste. Some people love the songs of Cliff Richard but it's not for me! Thanks for your channel which I find interesting and entertaining. Keep up the good work.
'' One must be brain dead to call him a fraud '' Orion
Hey man if Coleman didn’t start it you know somebody else would start it. Cecil Taylor was already on that really really out shit
The early opposition to Coleman showed how parochial many of the critics were: it was as if the concept of an avant-garde was quite unknown to them. The support of John Lewis was crucial, as he and the Modern Jazz Quartet were very popular with a middle-brow audience, and the MJQ recording of "Lonely Woman" helped enormously - it was my introduction to Coleman, whose music I loved from the start. I don't think that Coleman regarded himself as an innovator - just as someone who had his own style and was determined to see where it took him. At the Five Spot, his group played opposite a more conventional band, the Art Farmer/Gigi Gryce quintet. Aware that many in the audience were there to listen only to him, Coleman addressed them with praise for the Farmer group, and encouraged them to listen to both groups with equal attention and respect. I believe that he was rather embarrassed by the titles given to his LPs, as he didn't see himself as a deliberate innovator.
Couldn't he be both a chalatain AND a visionary?
Ok… Ornette was indeed a visionary. An often unlistenable visionary, just as even Coltrane’s incessant blowing was both visionary and sometimes unlistenable.
Ultimately, it’s all about what turns you on. When I was a teen I was listening to Ornette Coleman. Nowadays I’m more likely to dig on Dexter Gordon.
Last night, I was listening to Ornette (Soapsuds) after listening to Lester Young (Aladdin recordings). Same experience. Same pleasure. Same exploration of everything that makes Jazz music still important.
Everything is listenable grass hopper .
I don' hear his innovative ,more open, language in the actual jazz scene.
What he was doing was trying, with his melodic constant serach,a way out to the clche of the be-bop idiom.
Thanks.
Thank you ❤
Genius
A true master 🎷
The only concert I have ever walked out on. I just couldn’t take any more. I really didn’t get it.
please do Albert Ayler!
But only if this guy really digs Ayler. Don't need any more insults to giant cultural figures, like even using the word "charlatan" in the same sentence as "Ornette." Shameful. If you can't dig the music, just assume that someone with a sixty year career must be speaking to somebody. I grew up with people that mocked Louis Armstrong.
If Ornette didn't exist it would be necessary to invent him.
I'll always remember the plastic sax.
Grafton. I used to have one, my first sax.
I thought "FREE JAZZ" and "SONG X " were excellent.
Speaking of the Avant Garde check out Sam Rivers and David S Ware . Thanks
Well , i respect but dont gravitate to his music .
European classical music already covevered a tonality and free time , from Varecse to John Cage , but the jazz players put it through the blues
Totally different. They didn’t sound like that. And what Cage did “Aleatoric music “ he would say is not free or improvisation. So ??? Ornette is first a foremost a blues musician. That’s the context he was coming out of
@@p.r.h.7283
That is what i said , he filtered post modern european concepts through the blues .most notably abandoned Afro diasporic concepts of call responce , dance drum concepts , for a free time , space and sound base , linear melodic aproach , that the europeans explored first , melodic concepts from other cultures like India , or North Africa , which is differant than West Africa concepts.
The dancers knew , half the jazz players knew.
It should have its own catagory , its a mistake to push " free jazz" onto jazz that retained call responce drum dance concepts.
Ornette never could swing hard , its an injustice to him to suggest he could swing up bop
@@p.r.h.7283
I rember i heard a record by Andrew Cyril , Milford Graves and two other noted " free drummers " , they know how to play straight , but this was free , and i compared it to a university percusion group playing an avant guarde score for percusion.
The similarities were very close , but the jazz free drummers had a looser aproach , yet , they were closer in concept than compared to those Art Blakey Sabu percusiin records.
It causes great conflict to try to force avant guarde jazz into the groove based call responce , even bar forms coming from dance drum tradition . They are differant idioms
He definitely OFFENDED SENSIBILITIES. Saw him on SNL, introduced by UNCLE MILTIE, of all ppl.
To tell the truth, l liked the 'Skies of America' and 'Science Fiction'.
🤓
But he was also, from the beginning, hailed by many leading musicians as a genius. So - just decide for yourself- do you like him or not ?
Cool.
Thanks for sharing
Aw yeah, im early
Ornette Coleman is the Schoenberg of Jazz. Both created a bizarre, boring and unbearable musical conceptions.
Agreed. Ornette was the Schoenberg of Jazz. Is that supposed to be an insult? The greatest musicians (Glenn Gould, Pierre Boulez, Yehudi Menuhin, LaSalle Quartet, etc. etc) devoted their great energies to the music of Schoenberg. But of course, taste is personal.
@@robertpolevoi8630 Serialism, atonalism, dodecafonism, elctroacoustic music >> 🤮
Take heed to the wise words of Augusto the youtube viewer! How extensive his musical vocabulary must be! 🤢🤢 🤢
@@leeroc1 I love the sound of nature vocabulary, not ugly conceptions builted in Dr. Frankenstein laboratories. Read about George Russell's statement at lydian cromathic conception.
@@leeroc1 I'm not smart, I just dislike ugly musical conceptions.