How Was Mace Windu Supposed to Arrest Palpatine Anyway?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 พ.ย. 2024
- Mace Windu walked directly into Darth Sidious' trap when he attempted to execute him in his office. But what would've happened if Jedi Master Mace Windu had heeded Anakin's advice and taken the sith lord alive? Was that even a possibility given the political circumstances at the time?
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He was never going to arrest a sith, he knew a sith lord would resist, giving him the excuse to use deadly force.
Thats the problem here.
The issue is Mace went to arrest the Chancellor with no evidence of a crime or treason. You can't just arrest someone with no evidence of a crime.
He than went on to attempt to kill him. To everyone else that would look like a Jedi just assassinated the Chancellor and attempting to seize power in a coup d'etat.
I agree that Mace had to do something but the way that he went about doing it would have made him and the Jedi look like traitors to The Republic and hunted down anyway.
@@brandonarmienti7734 yea good thing that Mace got thrown out the Windu.
@@Lobo-Perez Genius
He should have gotten some evidence and rounded up some trusted senators for the case and have some security to make the arrest either way it would have been a winnable outcome if Mace Windu did decide to kill Palpatine
@@Lobo-Perez lmfao
I always thought that Windu’s decision to kill palpatine was a very underrated character moment for him. Up until this moment, Mace had been the ultimate rule follower of the Jedi and would stick to these rules as dogmatically as possible. But in this one moment, Mace decides to finally break the rules since he recognizes that there are moments where “the Jedi way” fails and one has to compromise. Killing palpatine was literally the only way to save the galaxy. And even if it didn’t jive with the Jedi code that Mace had stuck to so dogmatically, Mace was going to do it because it was the right thing to do.
Exactly! Mace, in true Jedi fashion, was able to LET GO of such rules for the greater good of the galaxy. Sometimes, letting go is more than just letting a PERSON go, but beliefs and rules you once followed. Anakin's attachment to both Padme and Palpatine's false promises kept Mace from killing Palpatine, thus dooming the galaxy to 20+ years of a genocidal empire.
@@alexielshadowangellet go
The thing is though, it absolutely jives with the Jedi Code. The Clone Wars was as much a holy war as it was a civil war. It absolutely checks out that the Jedi would put their religious fervor above laws. They're zealots.
@ScooterinAB use the force
📠📠📠
This is what Mace Windu should have done, the second Anakin tells him Palpatine is a Sith Lord he should have informed all the Jedi Masters and Jedi Knights in the Coruscant Temple to prepare for any attack and about Palpatine being a Sith. He should have then sent a Jedi High Council transmission to all the Jedi in the galaxy telling them about Palpatine. He should have then contacted known Jedi allies in the Senate like Padme and Bail Organa about his findings and THEN headed to arrest Palpatine.
“If you want to stay ahead of me chancellor, you have to keep both eyes open”
- Mace Windu
Also Mace Window: gets eye scratched out by a Porg
Nick Fury was more competent at least until Sercret Invasion.
Dang. I knew “the force” was some sort of organization.
To be fair, the evidence Mace Windu needed against Palpatine was probably right there inside the office, but he probably never had any real intention of bringing him in alive
Yeah there would've been call logs to count dooku and grievous somewhere
Not really. Palpatine took care of that immediately. I think I read somewhere that Palpatine got his henchmen to alter the recordings to make it look like that the Jedi were committing an act of aggression against an elected Supreme Chancellor by trying to kill him. He would’ve edited out the parts where Mace Windu was trying to arrest him and all the evidence of the Sith stuff that happened during that assault.
@@FastTquick that was afterward. How could Palpatine do that if Mace killed him and started downloading files from his office
@@knightingale9833 Well, as Allen already pointed out, Palpatine has the entire judicial system in his hands and I can bet that his henchmen will find a way to exonerate him and still label the Jedi traitors anyway.
@@knightingale9833 Remember the no guards in the senate building thing? Palpatine knew Mace Windu was coming and thus repaired for his arrival. Palpatine's all about preparing in advance. He probably wiped his entire contact registry and put in a falsified one even before Anakin figured out he was a Sith. Heck he probably covered his tracks after every single call he made to anyone over the past decade.
What about the Sith artifacts all over the place? No one would know what those are. People would assume he was an avid art collector. Luthen Rael used that same guise to hide in plain sight while forging the Rebellion.
And this also assumes that Mace actually COULD kill him. Palpatine might have been playing the "wounded gazelle" card to entice Anakin to the Dark Side. Had Anakin not shown up it's possible Palpatine would have just wasted Mace Windu right then and there.
In ledgens, Mace Windo had PTSD. He suffered from knowing he could have stopped all the deaths on Geonosis buy killing Jango Fett. He didn't and knew if he let Palpatine live it would happen again.
Dooku*
And Dooku
Even when the Jedi had 10000 members (revenge of the Sith numbers) Jedi were still considered as mythical by much of the populace. Most had never met one, and most believed that the 'rumors' of their powers were greatly exaggerated.
The Sith had been hidden for a 1000 years at that point... if you tried to tell a regular citizen about them, they would have no idea what you were talking about.
Mace thought he might be able to arrest Palpatine. But after fighting him he clearly realized that he would be far too dangerous to arrest.
So frankly, as much as Jedi do not kill their prisoners - it’s better to kill one that could otherwise do untold damage to the galaxy.
And technically Palpatine wasn't a prisoner yet. He was still an active enemy combatant. One with no hope of winning unless his opponent did something extremely stupid, sure, but he was still fighting.
Whether that technicality actually matters is a different question.
Keep in mind, there was also the fact that Palpatine had just murdered several Jedi Masters with what could easily be identified as a Sith weapon. Sure the initial reason for arrest wasn't really justified but someone is going to raise a few eyebrows about the suspicious circumstances of the whole event. As stated, there was no security and a single old man murdered a group of decorated war heroes on his own with a weapon that hadn't seen use outside of the Jedi Order in centuries? That's going to make the idea that he's a Sith Lord much easier to believe.
@kylepessell1350 He packed the courts with sycophants and held the position that would make him responsible for his own sentencing.
@@DarkEdgePrince That he did but the system wasn't entirely corrupted, just heavily in his favor. Those corrupt officials were mostly weak-willed follower types exactly like Palpatine wanted which means that if his position was weakened enough then their loyalties could flip since they were ultimately beholden to the galactic population. If it was proven without a shadow of a doubt everything that Palpatine was responsible for, there would be no way he could get away with it once the common republic citizen started demanding his arrest no matter how ostensibly loyal his cronies were. Of course, Palpatine knew this and made it as difficult as possible for this to ever come to pass but that doesn't mean it was entirely impossible.
Windu was still going to arrest him though. He didn’t decide to go full-on executioner until Sidious tried to blast him with Force Lightning. That’s when Windu realized that Sidious was too much trouble to arrest and he had to be killed right then and there.
Almost an impossible task but with Anakin's help they could have taken down Palatine and sent out a different message (or order) to the Clones and Jedi.
Palpatine would not let then take him in
@@Spider-Man647 I don't think Palatine could have taken on Windu and Anakin together. After a lengthy duel he would have lost.
@@Spider-Man647. Palpatine wasn’t in that condition. Mace had beaten him. Mace was prepare to arrest him. The last trick Palps had was Force Lightning and appealing to Anakin, which didn’t have the full direct effect that he had hoped for. But it did change Mace’s mind from an arrest to an assassination. Which is when Anakin stepped in. Because;
1 - such an act was treason.
2 - the act was unjust.
3 - it is not the Jedi way.
If Mace stood his ground with the arrest, Palpatine would’ve been arrested. And the rest of the Jedi would’ve been notified. There was just no way for Palpatine to hold off both of them AND called for Order 66. But Mace changed his mind because Palpatine was trying to appeal to Anakin while holding Mace off with Force Lightning and Mace didn’t have enough faith in Anakin’s ability to make good choices.
But the Jedi had the evidence linking everything to Darth Sidious. Just no way to draw the connection between him and Palpatine that would hold water in court. And they had some support in the Senate. But would need more time to be confident. And Mace didn’t have much trust in politicians.
But, it’s laughable that Palpatine could beat both Anakin and Mace and call for Order 66 before the other Jedi learned what was going on. The guy is a joke with his political connections and authority or his persuasive words for Force Users in Mace’s power class and competence.
The Jedi nor the Senate knew about the contingency orders. They just barely knew about the inhibitor chips. Most what if scenarios forget that Palpatine and the Kaminoans kept that a secret until Fives figured it out, but then it was just passed off as artificial aggression blockers.
Of course, the real problem is how do they prove any of this in a court of law? Disregarding the incredible influence Palpatine had over the systems of the Republic, their evidence against him was flimsy at best and consisted only of an alleged confession of allegiance to a system of belief that may or may not have been recorded by the building's security system (assuming Palpatine didn't wipe that particular record).
Even if they could prove he was Sith (presenting his personal lightsaber would have been the only other real move there), that doesn't automatically make him the one responsible for the war. Remember that Dooku, Ventres, Maul and Savage (before he was killed) were all also Sith of varying power. Without further evidence tying Palpatine to the Separatist movement and Dooku, the best they could probably manage was having Palpatine removed from his position in the Republic. And *that* is assuming the Republic even had laws preventing Sith from holding political office, because if not then the Jedi have no grounds to build a case against him.
Remember that the Jedi, for all of the claims made about them, are not a legitimate law enforcement agency. Their authority in matters is unofficial, granted with the understanding that they would act in the best interests of the Republic but given none of the oversight or regulations used with their actual officers of the law. And given the importance of the position Palpatine held, almost no one in the Senate is going to just sit back and let the Jedi waltz up and assassinate a sitting Chancellor on allegations that they are 'evil.' That is a wildly dangerous precedent to set for the future, and not one anyone there would have allowed especially given the Jedi's waning popularity towards the end of the war.
The fact Palpatine had already predicted the Jedi would try to take control of the government once they learned who he was shows, to me at least, that he'd already considered every possible action.
If Windu arrests him, Palpatine knows the court of public opinion would see him back in power in time for breakfast and Order 66 would've been something people demanded.
If he is killed, then he already has all the pieces in place for the seizure of power by his forces and allies and for Order 66 to be initiated in his absence, and he probably already has projects in place for his resurrection.
And let's not forget, the reason Anakin finds out Palpatine is Sidious is because he basically tells Anakin. He can afford to reveal his master-stroke because he's already won.
As Allen says, by the time Anakin finds out the truth, it's already too late for the Jedi.
I love the fact Palpatine makes in the thumbnail while being arrested. It totally says: "I knew I should have followed my dream of being a swoop racer."
Holy crap... I never thought about the lack of guards during the arrest attempt... good eye
They COULD have seareched through Palpetines personel terminals and maybe find SOME evidance to link him to the Seperatists, but im pretty sure Palpetine could easeley lie his way out. Honestly the only way the Jedi could at this point have survived if they managed to pin Palpetines death on the Sepratists ore if Palpetine had died on the Invisible Hand. Its kind of funnt how the ship crashlanding and killing Kenobi, Skywalker and Palpetine would have bein the best case scenario here
A guy who engineered the takeover of the entire galaxy probably (but not necessarily) would have been smart enough to not have a "My Secret Separatist Plot" folder on his desktop. :P
@@ScooterinAB He had the plans of the death Star in there so...who knows
If Palps is alive he can interfere in any investigation, he is a Sith Lord after all. Any evidence potentially exonerating the Jedi would be far far easier to collect with him dead rather than alive. At worst Jedi lose their political power (not a bad trade, all things considered) since I doubt a trial absent Palps would result in a state mandated genocide of the Jedi, even in the worst case where they have 0 non-witness or circumstantial evidence.
@@GeneralJarrett1997 Especley because I think Windu would have bein willing to take the fall and take all the bame on himself. heck he actet without the approvel of the Jedi Council he just heard Palpetine was a sith, and collectet 3 other Jedi and thats it. So..most likley only he would have bein punished not the entirtey of the Order
It was a lose-lose situation. They were doomed from the start.
Ngl, the Overlord of the Sith being put on trial is a really fascinating concept. In fact, some of the most important Sith lords, such as Revan or Bane, were very close to being tried by Republic courts, but the Force had different destinies for them.
I was of a thought that Mace probably realized that when it came down to the final call, he would probably need to sacrifice himself in order to rid the galaxy of Palps.
Following the killing, Mace wound need to ostracize himself and go into hiding, effectively becoming an exile.
He'd probably tell Yoda why he took this action but few if any others.
There's been a few cases of people doing so in our own world's history, so the idea isn't all that novel.
It also would 'cut through' a helluva lot of red tape.
Mace was quite capable of beating palpatine in that fight. That's why he was depending on Anakin to step in. Shatterpoint and vaapod had him ready to match him up till his arm got sliced. At least imo
Lucas clearly stated that Mace bested Palpatine. It was really a matter of making sure Anakin either helped or at the least didn't interfere for Mace to commit to killing him.
Palpatine was waiting for them to come….he planned it. Why would he do that if he wasn’t prepared to kill them all? You really think a guy who planed this moment for 30 years and put all the pieces together to take over the Galaxy…. left the whole thing up to chance and the presumption that Anakin wouldn’t get stuck in traffic?
@@akaviral5476Sure…..he plots for 30 years to take over the Galaxy and leaves the whole thing resting on Anakin showing up at the exact right moment and not getting stuck in traffic. He sent his guards away and lured the Jedi in….butchered three masters almost effortlessly but somehow loses 90% of his power the moment Anakin lands in the hanger and he genuinely gets “ beaten” just in time for Anakin to walk in and see Windu trying to kill a defenseless old man.
@@Matt-yg8ubit wasn't chance though, the Plageuis novel describes it perfectly: the force had turned against the jedi
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy
Yep. Just like the expanded prophecy mentioned - the Jedi would have to pay dearly in lives to restore *real* balance. They were punished for losing their way.
Yoda sees this during his fight with Sidious and realizes he (and by extension the former Jedi way) is not destined to defeat the Sith.
I think the key to Windu's downfall, is the fact that when Anakin comes to him with the news of Palpatine being the sith lord. He says "If what you say is true, you will have earned my trust." How is Anakin supposed to react to this?
I think if Windu had replied a simple "thank you," it would have gone down better and Anakin would not have been as easily manipulated by Palpatine.
I've got a few notes for consideration: 1). Order 66 can only be implemented if the Jedi are committing treason, hence why Palpatine says, "It's treason then." This is to ensure that there is evidence and/or a declaration of treason by the Office of the Chancellor of the Republic Senate; however, this also brings the question, "How is that evidence retained?" and if the answer is "The evidence is recorded via security systems in the chancellor's office" then you now also have to consider what other evidence can be found in that surveillance system. 2). If Palpatine is arrested, and there are known ways to restrain a force user, (Hondo Anaka held two Jedi and a Sith who only escaped because of a lack of properly trained or able guards, a situation which would be much different on a planet that maintains personal trained and able to confront force users.) Plus, the Jedi do not lose Anakin to the dark side, Padme lives and is able to help Bail Organa (and others) prosecute Palpatine, which may, if nothing else, put doubts into a lot more senators about keeping Palpatine as chancellor (vote of "no confidence".)
Finally, 3). Palpatine's rise to power, expanded reign and granted power, survival of insider assassination attempts, propagation to go to and continue an extremely destructive war, plus being able to hide his evilness from the public that supports him can all be compared to our own true history's Adolf Hitler.
F
That's a good point and a huge thing people seem to miss. Order 66 wasn't "kill the Jedi." It was "the Jedi have turned against the Republic." I think it was enough for him to just say they betrayed the Republic. Remember when Padme talks about how Palpatine spent a bunch of time explain the Jedi Order's plot to the Senate. He only had to justify it later, since it's not like he'd be contested.
@@ScooterinAB your response just gave me another question to consider; Palpatine explains to the senate what happened with the Jedi attacking him, etc., but that happens after he issues Order 66.
I think I just answered my own question in my head... can Palpatine give the order to execute Order 66 without the senate's approval? But then I realized that most likely he can as an emergency protocol much like the U.S. President can order the military services to conduct operations as an immediate response to any threat such as President Bush did after 9/11 or President Roosevelt did after Pearl Harbor.
@@skyden24195 It seems that he certainly had the authority to do so. He was given emergency powers, but he also would have engineered the whole thing so that he could just do it. He would have just had to pretend to justify it to the Senate after the fact.
@@ScooterinABThere's no way Order 66 was legal. He had all Jedi everywhere executed on sight without trial, including all the children and noncombatants. The only way order 66 can be legal is if it's successful and Palpatine makes himself emperor
@@histguy101 When your government is taken over by an evil wizard who has been granted legal authority to make laws, Order 66 was absolutely legal. There were other orders that were contingencies in case Palps didn't become the Supreme Chancellor, which means these orders would have been documented and known. If anything, Order 66 is one of the only believable things in the prequels. The Jedi turned against the Supreme Chancellor and were deemed traitors. Windu pretty much said so himself; he planned to kill Palpatine and have the Jedi step in to control the Senate until this was resolved. They were too dangerous to be brought in because they shown to immediately fight back and started killing clones to escape arrest. Just as it was too dangerous for Dooku and Palpatine to stand trial, the Jedi were too dangerous to be brought in.
Been wondering this for years now. How exactly could have the Jedi taken down Palpatine without having to make any sort of sacrifice that still insures they lose? No matter what they did, i believe it was over for them anyway.
But helped the galazy more
The Sith had totally outmaneuvered the Jedi, who left it too late to act.
I don't think so if the republic went after the Jedi I doubt they could mess with them palpatines empire failed hard against 100 or less survivors and that's an illegal operation without any restraints like the republic has since they are a diplomatic government not a tyranny like sidious
Well, no, because Palpatine's death would mean the end of his tyranny. Only he can hold it all together. When he dies in return of the Jedi, his whole system collapses, and that's after 20 some years of shoring it up and establishing it. If he Mace kills him, he dies without a capable apprentice and the Jedi would simply root out his allies
@@histguy101 that was mainly because he expanded Tyrany too far in an effort to stamp out the rebellion. Up until about 10-15 years in the Empires lifetime most ordinary people didn't have too big of an issue and the Senate still had some pull.
If the Jedi had succeeded in assassinating Palpatine, the order would very likely be branded traitors and his chosen circle would likely have taken over with sending the armies after the Jedi, but without the singular evil force to let the public realize their error.
In Mace Windu's defense, this supposedly harmless old man was able to kill several jedi masters in a matter of seconds without breaking a sweat and he himself just had one of the most intense fights of his life with the guy. Factor in that, as you said, there were no guards nearby then that would leave two possibilities. Either Palpatine is a lot more dangerous than he appears and might be a fallen jedi at the very least or these jedi masters decided to kill each other and frame Palpatine for it.
Also there's a very important factor here for why it would have been a good idea to kill Palpatine, dead men tell no tales. If he's dead then all the public would have to go on would be Mace and Anakin's stories and so long as Anakin played ball then they could cover up the circumstances of Palpatine's death and pin the blame on separatist agents while the jedi can quietly return to their previous duties from before the clone wars once when the CIS was dealt with. At that point the biggest risk to the Republic and the Jedi Order would be people like Tarkin who would try to continue Palpatine's vision.
By asking nicely of course. Mace is a Jedi not a monster.
He’s a keeper of the peace, not a soldier, dammit!
The Jedi treated all Force sensitives, Force divinity, everything Force related that isn't under their purview as heresy
I dunno if comparing the Sith to witches and warlocks is exact. I mean it is a part of Coruscant history that the Sith did attack and conquer the planet at one time. Though I admit it will be hard to get Palpantine to be known as a villain one can make the same argument about the Jedi. They have been a part of Republic and done a lot of good with many that have witness this first hand being they have so many members. Leaving Palpatine to face trial though is hard when he did have control of the Senate and the Courts. I mean no one seemed to find it odd that Palpatine dismissed his entire protective unit on the night he was attacked. In the end it was just his word that he was attacked though he was scarred from it. I always found it odd that more people did not question just why the Jedi did this in the middle of a war none the the less. They could have taken power at any time it seemed yet allowed their armies to dismissed and to take a more back seat role compared to what they used to hold. Yet everyone just believed all of a sudden the Jedi were evil so one could argue that everyone would have believed Palpatine was also had he been arrested.
The deeper you dig, the more you realize the Jedi were just straight up screwed. There was no outcome that favored them or the Republic by this point. Thanks for putting together such a compelling argument and video. Love your content.
The public wouldn't have believed Mace, but they definitely would have believed Anakin because people love him. He would be there to testify against him. Of course there would be some that say it was a Jedi conspiracy to overthrow the Republic, a few Palpatine loyalists would probably break him out of captivity, and I believe Anakin would be the one that broke him out.
Anakin would still turn to the darkside no matter what, but Palpatine would no longer be in control of the Republic.
The public didn't know who Anakin was. The public likely had never met a Jedi. The odds that even someone on Coruscant even knew someone who had met a Jedi was unlikely. This is why everyone "forgot" about the Jedi during the time of the Empire; they barely knew they existed in the first place.
Mind control the loyalists to be against Palpatine.
@@ScooterinAB @ScooterinAB No one knew? There was a big war being televised, and we saw Jedi like Yoda with Chewbacca and everything.
Back when Timothy Zahn made his trilogy, Luke was treated like a peace maker, everyone brought their grievances right to him like he was the local judge or district attorney and abided by his decision.
Anakin was the poster-boy of Republic War Propaganda. He was called "The Hero With No Fear" even according to Canon.@@ScooterinAB
@@philippschwarz4539 So? How many people knew anything about him? How many people even cared that there was a war on the other side of the galaxy?
There is another scenario... Mace kills Palpatine, things play out, Dooku pivots and reveals he KNEW Palpatine was evil and that was the reason for the war and sues for peace. With Dooku coming to the Jedi's aid in confirming that Palpatine was a master manipulator he ends up rising to the position of the new chancellor of the republic and something in between the empire and the Republic comes into play. Mace killing Palpatine shows that the war has pushed the jedi in the direction Dooku always wanted them to go at this point.
But dooku’d head is missing!
Hi Alan, great video as always but I feel like you might have skimmed over a little bit on the potential roles that political allies that the Jedi had such as Padme, Bail, and Mon might have had. Also at this point, perhaps another order or directive to arrest or even negotiate with the Separatist council might be in place in order to secure peace. Some of those council members might be granted immunity or even amnesty in exchange for cooperating in the trial of Palpatine. Just a thought but regardless, terrific work as always. Please keep it up!
I wonder how different the situation would be if Windu’s team brought along a division of Clone Troopers and Senate Guards to arrest Palpatine?
That could be a fun what if scenario, but it would probably just end with Palpatine executing order 66 a few minutes early
He could just have them execute Order 66 in that room pretty easily. Would've been even worse for the Jedi in the room, though I wonder what it would do to Anakin. Probably would turn out the same, but he might recognize that this was a long term plan and question things more. I doubt it though
Tbh Palp woud have killed the senate guards and spoke order 66 in person...How ever i think Mace would have escaped and been able to help more jedi escape the temple and warn outlying Jedi about the full order 66 ambushes
The Senate Guards are useless.
what sort of reason could windu give to the guard to arrest the chancellor? and i doubt the coruscant clones would be entirely onboard, with the idea either, even if windu is a general
One thing I disagree with Alan with in this video is the Jedi were well known throughout the galaxy at this point (especially in the republic and separatist space) as they’ve been leading and fighting a massive war and have been used in propaganda extensively throughout the conflict (especially Anakin and Kenobi).
That’s not to say they had any understanding what they actually were and how they worked besides the basics like most people here with giant institutions that exist on earth.
A easy fix I would use for the public was call him (paps) an evil Jedi and it’s their job and purpose to protect everyone from them. Then explain the reality to the senate and those who needs and cares to know the truth. Most people won’t care as long as they get the gist as they have more important things to worry about.
It was too late the moment that the Jedi were forced to participate in the First Battle of Geonosis. They would rarely be left to their own devices afterwards outside of the Jedi Temple and a majority of the order was wiped out during this battle alone save for the more veteran members & initiates too young to participate. Even if they had been able to stop Palpatines grand plan the order would have never been the same again after such a devastating battle. They might have been taught to not have attachments but I am sure many close friends were lost that battle, and had they not had the Clone Wars to focus that negative energy towards many might have fallen to the darkside afterwards had this been a standalone battle. Anakin wasnt the only one to fall during the war.
8:58 in the novelization, Palpatine has a recorder that he destroys when he attacks
I think more people would know about the sith bring back than you think.
At least the senate would have likely known about maul, and definitely knew about dooku.
And Dooku was pretty publicly a sith so a good number of regular citizens would have known about him too
Don't forget that by the point Windu was poised to arrest him, good old Palpatine had just murdered several decorated war heroes with a distinctly Sith weapon while security was mysteriously absent. Most of the uncorrupted members of the Senate and even some of the lightly corrupted ones are going to demand an explanation for how he managed to do that and 'space magic' is going to end up a lot more believable in such suspicious circumstances.
It's a throwaway line, but Allen's mention of a group of bored academics rehabilitating the Sith's image is remarkably close to the plot of an old Legends comics series set millennia before the Clone Wars. I think it came out before the Prequel Trilogy debuted. The basic premise was that a group of Force-sensitive planetary nobles rediscovered a bunch of Sith artifacts and teachings, subverted the planetary government, and tried to break away from the Republic. The Jedi and a Republic task force put down the uprising, but not before one of the Jedi began a very Anakin-like fall.
Mace did nothing wrong. Palpatine literally was controlling both sides. Palpatine also just killed 3 masters and was the stringest situ in existence. Mace tried to arrest him peacefully at first, but Palpatine attacked them first
The issue is Mace went to arrest the Chancellor with no evidence of a crime or treason. He than went on to attempt to kill him. To everyone else that would look like a Jedi just assassinated the Chancellor and attempting to seize power in a coup d'etat.
I agree that Mace had to do something but the way that he went about doing it would have made him and the Jedi look like traitors to The Republic and hunted down anyway.
@brandonarmienti6875 they went to arrest him and would formulate all the evidence later. Plus Palpatine used recordings and doctored them to make it seem like the jedi randomly attack him. They would just use that recording. Killing Palpatine was the best option. No one else had the absolute power he had. A simple way to prove Palpatine is a sith lord would be after his arrest to test his midicholorian count
@@Spider-Man647the Jedi were screwed no matter what they did. If Mace Windu had killed Palpatine than the Jedi would still be in serious trouble. Palpatine was the Chancellor of the Galactic Republic. He was a respected and admired leader in the eyes of the public. The population of the galaxy were largely kept in the dark concerning Jedi business and would have no knowledge of what a Sith is.
Therefore, Mace Windu has just killed the most powerful individual in the whole galaxy without any proof that Palpatine was a Sith Lord or more importantly a traitor. Palpatine himself was the only proof that Windu had and now he is gone. The rest of the Jedi Order would probably believe him. But not the general public or the Senate. They would turn against him and demand he be put on trial for treason. They would see Mace Windu as a criminal who had to be brought to justice.
The only scenario I can see the Jedi probably getting out of this is if Mace took full blame and said he acted on his own, basically he says he went rogue against the order to protect them. He would probably be executed for treason and the rest of the order would still be in a bad spot cuz now nobody trusts them and the Jedi's power and authority in the Republic would be greatly diminished or worse be banned.
Either way Palpatine wins.
@@brandonarmienti7734Would there not be evidence of separatist contact, though? Or would that be lost if it's not within his office? He had the Death Star plans there, so there's a chance.
@@akaviral5476 What evidence was there against Palpatine? His contact with the Separatists was through Dooku, and there was no evidence of his contact with Dooku. Heck, he'd been a prisoner of Dooku...there was evidence of _that._
I'm still wondering why Mace didn't go ahead with his original plan when he confronted Palpatine: inform the Chancellor that Grievous had been defeated, demand that he give up his emergency powers (since the war was basically over by that point), and when Palpatine inevitably refused or otherwise tried to finangle his way out of doing so, arrest him. Still not a great plan, if you ask me, but one that has a far better chance of success than whatever the hell Mace was thinking when he and his boys whipped out their lightsabers.
Apparently the showdown went a bit differently in the books in a way that makes more sense, Palpatine brought up a lot of the points explained in the video how they couldn't arrest him and would only make more problems for themselves by trying. While his cunning manipulations distracted and unnerved the Jedi, he was able to catch them off guard and kill two before the others even realized a fight had started. At that point, Mace Windu and pals were fighting more in self-defense for their lives against a cunning ambush rather than starting off the bat with aggressive threatening shown in the film.
during The Clone Wars series of course Yoda had the revelation they'd already lost, their fate had been sealed, and that whatever they did wasn't going to change that. perhaps Mace's actions were more of a going-through-the-motions sorta thing on the grounds that the outcome was the same regardless of what he did
The question is, *could* somebody else issue Order 66 if Mace and Anakin had successfully arrested Palpatine? The only time we've ever seen that happen is when a group of clones got mind-tricked into thinking the person saying it was Palpatine. Would Palpatine really have allowed the inhibitor chips to recognize commands from somebody other than himself?
It's likely that someone had emergency power of succession. Maybe that head tentacle guy. At least the wording of the orders (incidentally why I never like the chip idea) suggests that it's really the Senate that's doing it, not Palpatine himself.
The Senate had the authority to issue any of the orders as well, iirc
In the novel, Palpatine calls out the Jedi for the pickle they get into by coming to "arrest" him & basically calmly questions them & lulls them into complacency & kills the 1st 2 with no resistance. While the film is more action oriented & exciting by having Palpatine force scream & fly at them without much debate, the novel is more realistic & shows Palpatine how convincing, cunning & deadly he can be.
The had most of the evidence they needed for a case except for the identity of Darth Sidious.
Excluding Anakin from the picture, either way would’ve been risky to bad for the Jedi.
If Mace chose to arrest Palpatine, he could’ve taking him to the Jedi Temple where other Jedi and a few Jedi masters were and alerted the rest of the Jedi. That or moved him off world for the same. They could’ve used the arrest and trail to give their coup the air of legitimacy. While giving time for the Senate to air out their differences. The outcome would be completely up in the air at best.
Where as if Mace chose to assassinate Palpatine. The Jedi’s best chance at saving face would have been to press the narrative that Mace Windu and the four dead Jedi Masters found in the Chancellor’s office suite had acted alone. And then went through with a hunt to bring Mace to Justice. While they tried to figure out how to handle the issue of the Chancellor’s legacy and the secret Sith Lord through their allies in the Senate where they had allies. The problem there would’ve been that Mace had meet with all of them and that might be on record.
Either was would’ve been risky, but Mace would’ve tarnished support for the Jedi in either case. And the Courts are an unknown factor.
Now if with included Anakin:
Here the only solution that doesn’t lead to everything falling apart immediately without the Jedi Order first getting a heads up, is if Mace Windu went ahead with the arrest like he said even after Anakin showed up on the scene.
I've heard a lot of what ifs when it came to Mace and Anakin's confrontation of Palpatine and I've been wondering how balance in the Force would have been restored if Anakin didn't turn to the dark side? Genuine question.
Whatever happened to Mace or the Jedi afterwards, Mace took his shot because leaving a Sith Lord in control of the Republic was unacceptable. Look at how the republic was devouring itself after just a decade of Sidious' rule in hiding.
I love that you address the Jedi as engaging in a holy war no one else cared about. The Jedi Order was the worst and their motives and actions were extremely questionable.
5:50 “history is written by the victors” Winston Churchill
Barring some major contingency plan the Jedi would have been able to write the narrative that they thought best. But just saying that makes it obvious that Palpatine _definitely_ had a contingency or more probably layers of contingency plans.
This really makes me wonder even more what Lord Havelock Vetinari would do to save the Republic and Jedi Order.
Palpatine had cohorts who knew his secrets that would have been caught. Anakin killed most of them later but Palpatine's two cohorts were very much around.
I remember before he went in he talks with Yoda about both seizing control and a peaceful transfer of power. I think the plan was that once Palpatine was removed the jedi would take control of the position. They would probably appoint a master palatable to the public until the senate could organize to vote on a new chancellor. I think they may have been a bit naive in thinking this would just be a rough patch until things got back to normal.
Well at that time they did not know the chancellor was Sidious
@@LetsHavePun No, I meant more the political ramifications. Like they thought they could just remove and and seize the office without long term issues or even immediate consequences. If they considered how risky it really was they would have amassed about 90% of the order on Coruscant before approaching Palpatine to both secure the senate and fortify the Temple.
@@sonicguyver7445 They deliberately sent Yoda off-world to make the order on Coruscant weaker because they wanted to lure Palpatine out. They probably had a plan to withdraw as many Jedi as possible as quickly as possible once Palpatine was out of the picture, but doing so beforehand would have been a very dangerous move.
"Ladies and Gentlemen of the Republic, I killed him because he's an Evil Wizard." Mace Windu.
without Vader at the temple it would have gone poorly for the 501st. Each Jedi can defeat multiple clones ( Think Yoda and Obi-Wan when they returned) this is where having a war would have backfired for Sidious. Because the Jedi who made it this far were the ones best suited to combat.. And the temple would not have fallen. Sure the same Jedi out in the field may have fallen, but again without Palpie doing his battle meditations maybe more Jedi would have survived. But with Anakin, Mace, Yoda, Obi-Wan and several at the Temple, there would be more than enough left to take care of business.
Yea like what evidence would they have against Palpatine? Oh he’s secretly a force sensitive and has a red lightsaber and aligns with a religious group called the Sith. What about any recordings he has had with Dooku he most likely keeps very discreet? What about records of his involvement with the clone army (news flash Dooku was the only one you can factually prove to be behind that), and finally what authority do the Jedi have to forcefully arrest a guy because he doesn’t align with their beliefs. Sounds like a massive PR nightmare for them and things would certainly do downhill from there regardless if order 66 happened or not.
I don't think the Sith were considered legendary by general public. There were so many wars between them and the Republic it's basically Galactic History 101. Those who din't see Jedi in action might have not believed in Sith's abilities but they would certainly know that in the past there was a powerful sect with a lot of military power known as the Sith.
Perfect timing, just rewatched ep 3 today
Anikan: You can’t, he’s already won.
A police officer has to decide in milliseconds what to do when the enemy opens fire.
Windu was in a similar situation with Sidious.
He might have been a rigit, by-the-book asshole, but he was in his right exercising the Jedi perogative against Darth Sidious.
This guys videos are thoughtful and funny as hell
Is it possible Palpatine had a Contingency (as he did following RotJ) should the Jedi have actually succeeded in killing him? Some skeletons in the Jedi Council's collective closets revealed that would have ruined them in the eyes of the public following his death, or even a cloning program set up as he had in the works later in the series?
I think that there is another option I think that instead of going over to arrest him Mace windu contacts senators amadala, organa, mothma, and whomever else they feel that they can trust and inform them of the situation then until a proper situation presents itself you simply buy time, you slow the offensives your jedi are leading and make them aware of the situation you then have the chancellor put under surveillance and quietly begin to investigate Palpatines connection to the CIS you simply play the long game. He had already revealed himself to anakin which means he knew that they would have to act so instead you do what he doesn't expect, you do nothing it places him on defense for the first time and maybe puts him in a position to make a mistake. Sorry for the wall of text I just had to get the idea out of my head
What could they do though? The whole point here is that Palpatine was the Senate and the Courts. I mean, if Trump can buy his way out of jail, Palpatine absolutely could.
It would be really intresting to learn what the Galaxy knew about the Jedis and Siths after the fall of the Empire. Did Luke tell them they were ruled by an evil space wizard?
Sabine's throwaway line as she explained it to Ezra in "Ahsoka" suggests that the galaxy never learned those details.
The masses would never believe it.
@@gumdeo Yes. From the perspective of the masses who had been oppressed by the Republic going to being oppressed by the Empire, it was just the elite replacing the elite for whatever reasons the elite did such things.
They could’ve gone after him for the zilo beast incident
Mace kills Palpatine, Anakin arrests Mace. Mace Windu goes to jail, but the war ends, and eventually, Palpatine's hand in the war is brought to light. Mace still remains in jail for treason, and the Jedi distance themselves from the public.
Could u make your videos available in pic-in-pic format? I would want to watch your videos while doing schoolwork. ❤❤❤
Imagine if Anakin realized he was being manipulated as he was goibg to Palpatine and that caused his wife's death. So he uses the force to pretends as if he is going to cut of Mace Windus hands but cuts off Palpatine instead.
By telling him the party is over
Speaking of the Battle of Ruusan, it's quite curious to see that, after 1000 years of war, the resources had been so overexploited that, by the time of Darth Bane, the literal battlefields now looked like something out of LOTR. Without a doubt, this war was equally disastrous for the Jedi and the Sith.
Or Mace could have sat on Anakin. Contacted Yoda and then made a plan. Remember at his time no order 66 was set in action Anakin was conflicted and not on Palpetne side. Mace problem was that he reacted to fast on made bad decisions.
Actually, what the Jedi should have done was declare the crisis over with the defeat of Graves. They could then begin pulling their knights from the GAotR, and turn the clone units over to the Senate for demobolization. The senate would then either have to agree with the Jedi, or continue the war on their own terms without the Jedi.
If Star Wars were R rated
Mace Windu would said the MF word 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Would Mace Windu have been the kind of person, had he been successful, to surrender after it was over to the appropriate authorities and accepting whatever punishment they thought fit, perhaps dying a martyr to the Jedi Order? Or does this very act corrupt him necessarily to the Dark Side of the Force, making him believe even more strongly in the righteousness of his actions and what now "needs to be done"?
Excellent breakdown, keep up the great content.
Lmfao that Palpatine reaction gif in the background of your office
The jedi could have arrested Palpatine for staying in office too long after his term had expired, a sentiment that the citizens of the Glactic Republic would appeal to since Palpatine would be breaching their constitutional laws , making the jedi on the side of democracy and the Republic.
Basically it's the only excuse that would work and would be very hard for Palps to worm his way out of. Even something that even the clone troopers would understand.
And again we get the thing I like about SWTOR: it seems like the Light Sith you can play as are about the only ones who get the Jedi to REALLY back off of their fanaticism and sit down to advance a common cause. This is especially true if you play a Light Sith as the Outlander. I'm pretty sure "canon," if the game were officially incorporated, would be a traditional Jedi stick up the ass type, but then again the ever-pragmatic Darth Marr gets the freaking Grand Master of the Order, Satele Shan, to pay attention to him regardless of who you play as the Outlander.
You mean "I gotcha you mothafuckin sith lord"
Personally my idea of a galaxy where Mace and Anakin kill Palpatine is optimistic, but also cynical. This would be riding on the inhibitor chips, whether or not they can only be activated by Palpatine. This would determine whether or not Mas Amedda can execute Order 66, but also could serve as evidence of Palpatine’s treachery since there’s no way he should have had any ties to Kamino before the Clone Wars.
Best case scenario to me is that a portion of the Senate and populace side with the Jedi along with a majority of the clones. However, a significant portion of the Republic would secede and become the Galactic Empire. Maybe they start out as a political group like the First Order Centrists in the New Republic or begin as some insurgency swearing to avenge Palpatine. Given how much the Republic changed during the Clone Wars, the Imperials would be quite popular.
The Separatists are going to have a mixed time. At first there may be chaos as Dooku would be exposed. While it may call into question the existence of the CIS, it wouldn’t last since the whole Sith Conspiracy still proves the point of the Republic’s corruption. Imagine if the Imperials did secede. I imagine the Separatist Parliament would try to lead, but the Separatist Council using the military and their influence over the economy would come out on top.
The Clone Wars would likely end, the Separatists wanted to end the war and the Republic would be in chaos. Many planets may just become independent, refusing to trust factions. In my eyes though, I feel another war would happen. A three-way conflict between the Empire, Separatists, and what’s left of the Republic.
I love the video but you skipped the one thing I wanted you to cover: exactly how were Mace and Anakin supposed to safely restrain Palpatine? Maybe they could use Morichro to slow down Palp's bodily functions? But that doesn't seem like an ability most Jedi outside of Yaddle tended to use. I am also sure that Mace beat Palps in lightsaber combat but he hasn't broken through Palps Force Wall just yet.
I mean we saw Barriss Offee in hand cuffs and I am sure she could have easily gotten out of them. But Barriss stayed in the cuffs and submitted because she was surrounded by guards that could defeat her. Palpatine could have defeated those 4 guards so what level of security was required to make Palps submit to restraints?
I agree that the Mandelorian restraint device would have worked but how do they get Palps into that device at his power level? Everythng Mace saw up to this point showed Mace that Palps should not be underestimated. If I was Mace, I wouldn't even put magical force dampening cuffs on a force user that I can't completely dominate with the force.
See, I don't think the plan was ever to arrest him. I know he says that's what he was trying to do, but I don't think that was the end game. Windu knew he was going there to kill Palpatine, because there is no way he would have allowed himself to be arrested.
Are you saying "he's too dangerous to be left alive"?
The one thing that I didn't understand, is why Mace didn't have one of those little hover robo-recorders there for the arrest.
The only move the jedi had left is the clone wars itself if they proved that paplatine was behind the clone wars or actually waited for it to be over and palpatine did not step down they could use that
Well mace windu definitely jumped the gun on the whole arresting of palpatine thing.
He should have passed on the information via holorecording or get someone else to do it at the Temple then prepare them for anything that can happen at any time before even stepping foot palpatine’s office.
When the sith is involved you can never be sure about whats due to happen next & the Jedi found that out the HARD WAY😆👏🏾‼️.
"Ahh, Master Windu ..."
"The path of the righteous man, is beset on all sides ..."
"Oh shit."
If aniken wore a wire . Theyd have proof he was behind the clone wars being a sith would connect him to count Duku
Mace Windu: Take Seat Young Chancellor!!!
13:16 "...the lesser Evil!"
Man! Really missed a chance here.
The true question is why did Windu hesitate? He had defeated Palpatine... There was no need to take the saber high up over his head a smal tip forwards would have been enough to kill palpatine with a blade in his face. Windus hesitation was what allowed anakin to step in. Everything after would have been difficult but not that kind of doomsday for the entirety of the jedi order as Vader and Sedious were after the war was over.
Like Thor in MCU choosing to say badass line to Thanos, instead of hiting him in head immediatelly, and losing because of it.
Because Windu wasn't entirely sure that he was doing the right thing. After all, killing a defenseless prisoner goes against the Jedi Code (though Palpatine is only kind of defenseless and is most certainly not a prisoner), and Windu always strayed closer to the dark side than most. And it's possible that he wouldn't have gone through with it, in the end.
The jedi had more authority than anything else in the republic. They seemed to be on an even footing with the entire council.
The extra privileges and freedoms as well as rituals really made the jedi a higher and intrusive power in the galaxy.
The jedi were easier to blame simply because they had power, even though they didnt really use it.
I got to thinking in the Kenobi show the Jawas found a Jedi belt in the desert. I wonder if some how it could be mace windu’s but probably not as location has no understanding unless mace was trying to find Luke if he ever learned about him.
The Palpatine arrest scene is one of the greatest failures of George Lucas as a director and story teller. It was ridiculously goofy.
I still question what most think would've happened if Anakin would've followed Mace's order to stay at the Jedi Temple until Mace and the other masters returned, if they returned.
Edit: also, Idk why it's taken me up till just now, after having seen this scene and clips of it innumerable amounts of times since the ROTS came out for me to question, why in the hell does Chancellor's office have so many buttons just everywhere?? Like he's got the little swivel chair at the center of the room that he spins around in while just in front of that chair is an enormous desk that looks like a board with just a massive array of multiple colored squares, rectangles, and circles. Then to the left and right of the chair are two cone shaped objects that are about 3/4 the height of the chair with a singular light at their peaks while the rest of these cones are, like the light board, just covered in lit up colorful buttons of different shapes. Then beyond that light board is just a window that takes up the majority of the wall which altogether in the shot with just palps make it look like he's in Captain's chair of a space ship. Which if he were, the buttons could be rationalized with no further questions needed cause I could see piloting a space ship in this universe as complicated. But this is an office of an elected politician. Granted the like the highest position of a governing body that consists of representative officials over an entire galaxy, but still I don't think that would have much if anything to do with explaining what the purpose of any of those buttons would be used for in the office of the Chancellor lol
An AU where Ani and Mace team up and Star Wars turns into a odd couple buddy cop dramedy.
With time travel.
Under arrest the Jedi may have discovered his collaboration with the Separatists and the sham that the war was. But Palpatine would probably figure out a way to block all of that from appearing in court as unlawfully gained information.
they knew -- it was obvious that Windu was trying to suggest that they downplay it. I never caught on to his expression and tone until now.
how come we don't see any grocery stores in starwars
Windu went on to create his phunky dope empire...PHUNKY EMPIRE!
To be honest, he should have recalled all the Jedi back to the temple before he tried to make the arrest. Waited for the entire council to return and than went in with all 4 councils.
Really should have waited for Obi-Wan, Fisto had the “W” advice.
Skywalker wasn't defending Palpatine by *blocking* Windu's blade, it was more "disarming" Windu and making him defenseless as a result.
Skywalker saw the whole lightning show and that Windu could just about block it with his saber.
"Young fool.." ~Palpatine
If the galaxy is in a state similar to China back during the 11th century when it was divided into Song dynasty, Liao dynasty and Western Xia, how will this affected the Jedi and the Sith alike? Heck, can Palpatine even executed such a plan to eradicate the Jedi like at all?
to give him due process, with the understanding that he would resist anyway
They should never have tried to arrest him. They should have gathered evidence, which would have been easy to do, after they knew what the game actually was, and then arrested him in a full senate session. Then, either way, the Jedi would have won. Either they get him without a fight, or sidious fights, and the entire senate gets to see palpatine acting like a sith lord.
In the novel "Labyrinth of Evil," the Jedi did discover a significant amount of evidence, coming close to success as they stumble upon the Works and its underground Sith tunnels leading to Coruscant and Palpatine's apartment. Darth Sidious initiates the Battle of Coruscant, signaling the early demise of the Separatists as a distraction. Engrossed in the Battle of Coruscant, the Jedi permit the clones to proceed with the investigation through the tunnels. Unfortunately, Sidious, along with some Sith-loyal Separatists, intervenes, resulting in the death of the troopers. This all happened before Palpatine was captured by Grievous.
Upon Anakin's revelation that Darth Sidious is Palpatine, Mace Windu promptly believes it, having played a role in leading the investigation at the Works. While Mace and the Jedi possess the evidence, their primary objective is to apprehend Palpatine first. Regrettably, Order 66 leads to the destruction of the Jedi, with Palpatine successfully eliminating the evidence they had gathered. Sidious is smart but he had to end the Clone Wars early because he wanted to bait the Jedi into learning his Sith identity on his own terms. It worked when Mace's attempt to arrest and later assassinate Palpatine failed, though George Lucas admitted that Mace defeated Sidious fair and square.
Windu was up shit creek without a paddle, when it came to attempting to arrest Sidious. As it was a desperate last rash act of the jedi in trying to defeat the sith, before it was too late, even though it was far too late for that, given the machinations of the Sith's grand plan were almost complete. Without evidence of his treachery in playing both sides in the war against each other, he would be soon released and Jedi destroyed in the court of public opinion. Only option open to the Jedi would be to kill him as I suspect Windu intended and then role the dice inm respect of the consequences that would come with it.