@MrHwaynefair God will be victorious in saving all of mankind from permanent death. His will, will be done. Lamentations 3:31 for no one is cast off by God forever. Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God. Romans 5:18 therfore just as one man's trespass led to condemnation for ALL, so also is one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for ALL men. 1Corinthians 15:32 for as in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ ALL will be made alive. God bless.
But wait, the whole reason I go to church is so that I can be scolded and feel miserable and know that I’m just not good enough. This ruins everything.
Thank you Steve, so much. Of course, you are right and the Gospel is far far brighter than we were led to believe. Beyond all the pain, "fire" and judgements, He will be "All in all" and His Love, will truly "win".
I think that was an extremely fair presentation from someone who doesn’t wholeheartedly embrace what I call “biblical universalism”. I can remember when I was rethinking my position of ECT, I bought Edward Fudge's book called “The Fire That Consumes”. In the book, Mr Fudge dismisses ECT whilst making a biblical case for conditional immortality. Yet, it was a small quote he made in that book that brought my attention to “biblical universalism”. Quote from Mr Fudge as follows:- Quote // This evangelical universalism cannot be so easily dismissed, for it affirms the awfulness of sin, the requirement of atonement, the uniqueness of Jesus Christ, the reality of final judgment and the necessity of hell // end quote. It was Mr Fudge's quote that led me to further explore this “universalism” and thankfully It’s now a position that I wholeheartedly embrace. I think what I’m trying to say is this, there are some great minds out there with a wealth of biblical knowledge, even though they don’t necessarily embrace universalism, they are at least gracious enough to understand that a biblical case can be made in its defence. There are many good scriptural presentations out there in favour of universalism, but for me it simply boils down to the following:- Psalm 115 :3:- Our God is in heaven and does whatever he [wills/ḥāp̄ēṣ] Lexicon:- Strong's H2654 - ḥāp̄ēṣ :- Outline of Biblical Usage:- To delight in, take pleasure in, desire, be pleased with etc …. 1 Tim 2:4:- who [wills/thelō] all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth. Lexicon:- Strong's G2309 - thelō:- Outline of Biblical Usage:- To will, have in mind, intend, to be resolved or determined, to purpose, to desire, to wish, to love, to like to do a thing, be fond of doing, to take delight in, have pleasure etc …. The word thelō is in verb form, and it doesn’t lend itself to some form of wishful thinking, it speaks of action and purpose [ie] God intends to save "all" men, or purposes for "all" men to be saved. If it's true that God achieves “all” he wills/desires, and God wills/desires “all” to be saved, then the saving of “all” is what must surely happen. Peace
Unfortunately, as you well know, I’m sure, from personal experience, taking that view will require you to allegorize much of the scripture that was never intended as allegory.
I was raised Evangelical Pentecostal and became Roman Catholic as a teenager and remained a faithful Catholic until 4 years ago. Bishop Carlton Pearson’s move towards Unitarian Universalist theology shook me to a new reality of faith! Your teaching has solidified my Universalist belief! Thank you!
Thanks for your comment ❤️ I do believe that Rev. Pearson's journey away from the traditional view of hell was an honest realization that such a perspective is incompatible the simple truth that "God IS Love". But - to be very clear and honest - I would not call myself (simply) "Unitarian" - and certainly not "Unitarian Universalist" (instead I prefer "Historic Christian Universalism"). Why? Because the latter deny a belief in the Triune nature of God - and (I think consistently) deny any real doctrine of "hell". I thoughtfully embrace these two realities - while admitting that none of us have a firm grasp on what these "doctrines" gesture towards. Our God is a consuming fire of Love - and this Love can bring us into painful disciplines and chastisements for our purification - both now and in the "afterlife". And this God exists eternally in a "dance" (perichoresis) of Trinitarian Love - out of which overflowed God's Love in creating "all things" - the, after the fall, restoring, reuniting and reconciling "all things". My greatest problem with "Unitarianism" is the denial of the eternal preexistence of Christ - the eternal Logos (John 1) - very God of very God, eternally "proceeding from the Father" - and, in His incarnation, fully God and fully man.... God Bless you as you continue your journey into the heart of God's Love! -wayne
I'd say he's already broken away from the bad news. I don't see any evidence that he's even close to any sort of bad news. Was he formerly a fundamentalist or something?
@@jasonegeland1446 Well- to be fair, in the full video (link in show notes) and book he (sorta) presents the 3 main views equally… but I think he saved Christian Universalism for last for a reason…. Also not sure he was ever what I’d call a fundamentalist…. but maybe? Thanks for your comments!
@@MrHwaynefair Steve has been a hardcore fundamentalist, believing for example in eternal conscious torment for most of his life. He`s come a long way though! I suspect watching some of his children waver from the faith has been very troubling to him. He WANTS Christian Universalism to be true and that shows his softened heart. He`s a deeply compassionate man. I doubt he`ll ever be able to move away from his current neutrality on the matter though. He would have to semi-abandon his ingrained sola scriptura approach I think
The traditional view of hell in how we Christians deal with daily life around a heavily disbelieving world is so philosophically troubling to our empathy that we have to live with a bit of cognitive dissonance to manage getting through a day and live life with any sense of wellbeing. Otherwise our lives would be consumed with an overwhelming and constant despair over the list who surround us in every possible activity we engage in and even in our most intimate relationships. It creates a defense mechanism of avoidance of the issue we have as a central doctrine (traditional view of hell) of our faith.
This is one of the best summaries of universal reconciliation I’ve found. Regarding the free will objection, What parent would not put impassable boundaries upon their child’s exercise of free will?
Paul said his first Corinthians 3:11 through 15 about what you were talking about about the refinement process, that when the wood hay and stubble the drose of your life has been burned away, but in the end you will be saved as through fire, like someone escaping from a burning House,
Thanks for posting this. I used to catch bits of Steve Gregg's radio show while driving. I came from New Age teachings & practices unto the Bible and Jesus Christ, but I never believed in 'hell'. I searched for a church or fellowship to be part of reading all their "What We Believe" statements hoping to find one that did not teach eternal punishment; could not find one. I'm so excited to see him pondering this.
Thanks so much for your comment! It is a deeply ingrained belief - but I do believe that God is using people like Gregg to begin to crack open the door to other Biblical possibilities. I was raised by a dear father who was a "Southern Baptist" pastor - and never hesitated to preach "hellfire and brimstone" to a "lukewarm" church. But it just never sat well with me - and 40+ years later I came to "see" what (at least to me) is SO obvious in Scripture: God's everlasting Love for ALL - and His "hellbent" determination to see all who bear His Image transformed into the Image of His Son, Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ! Richest Blessings! wayne
@@MrHwaynefair Thank you! I agree that Gregg would be a blessing. He'd help open up many others, who would in turn, help open up many others. I am new to your site and will listen to more. After this one earlier today, I also listened to: Why I Left Calvinism...". I appreciate your good point about in every age, God has always used an "Elect" Thanks again :)
@@ALL2BWell Thanks for this comment and your positive feedback. I think it was Lewis that said of poets that, "they say more than they say"... Your re-statement of something you heard me "say" brought a new insight to mind - or at least something I do not think I've had "occur" to me: Paul never calls (at least explicitly) the Gentiles themselves "elect" - i.e. those who benefit from the "elect" (also called the "remnant" and "firstfruits" of Israel - i.e. the Jewish believers). I am working on a second video presentation looking specifically at the idea/meaning of "firstfruits" - and how this (I intuit) illuminates the somewhat thorny issue of "election" - and gestures toward the truth that "election" is not for exclusive salvation - but to bring salvation to others... Thanks for this!
The bible teaches that the Gospel was preached to those dead from before the flood, which suggests that people possibly can recieve the gospel after life.
Thanks for you comment! Yes - and it's interesting that once Peter opened up that possibility - he goes on to say in the very next chapter: "For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does." - 1 Peter 4:6 Personally, I am totally convinced that there is NO "proof" from Scripture against post-mortem repentance. Blessings❤️ wayne
Fudge is good - the movie about his life was really well done (too)... I see him as a gateway towards Historic Christian Universalism ❤️ (as, in some ways, John Stott was for me as a former-Calvinist)
Great talk. The lake of fire is a cleansing, refining fire. Everlasting is the word eonian or age enduring. So punishment is not everlasting but only for the time it takes to purify a person. When you stand before God you will see yourself as you really are. God refines us now in the fire of tribulation and trials. Jesus is the savior of all men, and especially those who believe.
Thanks for your encouragement and comment! If your interested in "connecting" either with me or with our bi-weekly meet-up group (via Zoom) - please reach out to me at: hwaynefair [at] yahoo [dot] com. Blessings In Christ to you and yours! -wayne
Not just in Colossians, Peter said it in Acts 3:21, and Paul made it abundantly clear in 2nd Corinthians 5:18 and following, that God was in Christ reconciling the world the cosmos to himself not counting our trespasses against us.
I totally agree with a lot of Steve's points particularly about putting an end to sin but also about God's character which is paramount and also about Justice prevailing which I think is resulted by the annihilationist position. Certainly the traditional view lacks in every single area
Justice prevailing - or Love prevailing? Are they separated within the Being of God - does one have primacy over the other ("God IS Love")? Love endures all things - love never fails - Love keeps no record of wrongs... There is a destruction that leads to life, "Destroy this temple - and I will raise it again in three days..." Thanks for you comments! Even if we may disagree - I welcome anything offered "in good faith"!
12 New Testament Texts: HELL Is ETERNAL The different ways ETERNITY in hell is stated: • everlasting fire • everlasting punishment • eternal condemnation • the fire that shall never be quenched • their worm does not die • unquenchable fire • eternal destruction • eternal judgment • blackness of darkness reserved forever • tormented with fire…forever and ever Matthew 10:28 Matthew 18:8-9 Matthew 25:41 Matthew 25:46 Mark 3:29 Mark 9:43-48 Luke 3:17 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 Hebrews 6:1-2 2 Peter 2:1-2, 10-22 Jude v.7 Revelation 14:9-12
I ask sincerely: Are you here (on this channel) to "prove" you are right - or are you willing to enter into a "good faith" dialog? Steve Gregg is (I am sure) very aware of your objections - and in the full video (of which mine is only an excerpt) he presents each perspective (there are at least 3: Eternal Conscious Torment, Annihilationism and Historic Christian Universalism) very evenly and fairly. He sees what I think that maybe you do not see[?]: there are Scriptural "proof texts" for each view - the question is where will you "land" - which texts will reign supreme over interpreting the other passages that seem to run in a different direction. One thing (for instance) that it appears you may not have deeply considered is the meaning of "aionios" in (for example) Matthew 25:46 - it is *mistranslated* as simply "eternal" NOT because it cannot mean "eternal" - but because the very word is full of ambiguity and therefore should NEVER be "simply" translated "eternal" - this has mislead countless millions... The Greek word is based on the root word "aion" - which means an "age" (eon"). For example BibleHub says it "usage" is: "age-long, and therefore: practically [?!] eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which *lasts for an age* , as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting." Speaking of "severity" - I have often noted this passage - it is NOT to be ignored (I fully agree with you here). But it is NOT the severity of God that Paul says surpasses all knowledge - it is the LOVE of Christ - out of which flow a power beyond imagination (Eph.3:19-20). In effect Paul is saying (at least implicitly) this is not something I can put into words - it is something you must have a direct revelation of.... Jesus does speak much of hell - *AND I BELEIVE THAT IT IS REAL AND TO BE AVOIDED AT ALL COSTS* - I just do NOT believe it is eternal in duration OR merely retributive in nature. As someone has noted: "there are 1900 plus verses in the four Gospels that contain Jesus’ words. Surprisingly, only about 60 of those verses, or just 3% of them, might be construed as either directly or indirectly referring to Hell. On the other hand, there are more than three times as many verses in the Gospels in which Jesus references Heaven, eternal life, or his coming kingdom: 192 verses in all, or almost 10%." Regarding different levels of hell - thank you for the citations! I fully agree there are different levels - but please consider this: does this not also imply that this punishment is *finite and limited* - i.e. "few" and "many" stripes seem to speak of a measured and equitable justice - perfectly fitting to the person being punished - and NOT going on forever (which would make "few" and "many" meaningless)? You say that holiness is the greatest of God's attributes? How can you say that so dogmatically? Scripture never says that - that is your interpretation of (I guess) the fact that the angels exclaim, "Holy, Holy, Holy!". But Scripture NEVER says "God IS holiness" - but it DOES say, "God IS Love". I take that as a statement of "essence" - not "attributes". In my (limited and faulty) understanding - ALL of God's attributes flow out of His essence - therefore *God is not opposed to Himself* - i.e., His judgments must be a reflection of (and not divorced from) His essence: Love. Consider this when it comes to His Holiness: The thrice-Holy God enters into Eden and interacts directly with His fallen offspring - He doesn't just send in some avenging angels and have done with them! He even preaches the GOOD News to them that a Savior will come someday and crush the head of Satan... Holiness does NOT mean He is simply wrathful and hateful towards sinners... We see in Christ the full revelation of God: he was a friend of sinners! And TRUE friendship even means "wounding" your friend ("faithful are the wounds of a friend") Also please consider this remarkable passage when it comes to understanding God's Holiness: "I will not carry out my fierce anger, nor will I devastate Ephraim again. For I am God, and not a man- *the Holy One* among you. I will not come against their cities." - Hos.11:9 Finally - Don't merely look at your proof texts - Look wide-eyed at those that are in tension with your current perspective... You must wrestle with these passages that stand in tension with your current emphasis on God's severity and "eternal hell": 1. The restoration of ALL things - Acts 3:20-21 2. The recapitulation (unifications) of ALL things - Eph.1:10 3. The reconciliation of ALL things - Col.1:20 4. The renewal of ALL things - Rev.21:5 I could cite several other verses that point us to this great and ultimate Hope - the total Victory of Christ over Satan and sin - What I believe to be the unconditional Good News (a "blunt indicative" - not just an invitation or a possibility/provision - but the certainty that Christ WILL subdue ALL things - and it will be finally said that God will be "all in all" 1 Cor.15:28) If you want to dialog about this I welcome it - otherwise I have demands on my time that will not allow me to enter into a war of words - Blessing in Our Sovereign Lord! wayne P.S. Here are other passages that speak of (or at least allude to) the Hope of Universal Reconciliation: sovereign-love.blog/2023/11/12/scripture-proofs-of-gods-eternal-love-%e2%9d%a4%ef%b8%8f/
Yes he apparently did (in The Great Divorce) - perhaps under the influence of his “master” (as he called him) George MacDonald, a Christian Universalist…
4:13 I respect the gravity of this conversation and respect both sides of the discussion, but one of the most dangerous starting points for anyone seeking any sort of truth is that of their own understanding. It is treacherous business to ask the question “Is that the kind of God I would want to serve?” Instead, we ought to ask, “What can we understand about God?” “Who is he?” Most certainly not, “Who do I want him to be?” I’m sorry to say anyone who claims the Bible is “silent” on repentance after death is either lying to twist scripture to their own understanding or simply grossly ignorant of scripture. I say this because of the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Jesus himself clearly illustrates the reality that death is the final deterministic aspect of each individual’s eternal fate. This isn’t the result of God’s desires-it is true that God wishes that all were saved (John 3:16)- but a reflection of God’s holy, righteous essence and our choice to either cleave to our own self-rule in depravity or submit to God’s lordship through acceptance of Jesus’s sacrifice and covering of our wretched, sinful lives in his precious cleansing blood. Who will you believe, Jesus, himself, or this man?
Thanks for your comment, Jonathan. "Post mortem repentance" is a very critical - even necessary tenet of Historic Christian Universalism. To cut to the chase - I cannot agree that the story of the rich man and Lazarus offers a final, clear or definitive teaching on the matter - or that it was the purpose of the parable at all to answer this question... Even in that passage one must take note of how (at least to SOME degree) the rich man had changed his mind ("repented" - though not fully or perfectly). The "no one can cross" chasm is another matter - but it does not foreclose what the God of the (apparently) "impossible" can and will do... or what this same God PROMISES to do on behalf of "ALL people" (e.g. He "IS the Savior of ALL mankind" 1 Tim. 4:12) (see Jesus teachings on the obviously "impossible" salvation of the rich - as likely as a camel passing through the eye of a needle... to which the disciples asked in astonishment, "Who then CAN be saved?". Then Jesus says these remarkable words, "With God ALL things are possible!") You must admit this: that this parable teaches 'NO repentance after death" is NOT what the passage "says" - that is how you are interpreting it. AND, we must ALL do such interpreting - including me... But are we right? That parable (of the Rich man and Lazarus) is simply NOT the only verse of Scripture that touches on that specific question (of repentance after death) - there are others that MUST be considered..... For instance - consider Jonah: It could be strongly argued that he indeed died inside that enormous fish - His very prayer seems to indicate that: "Out of the belly of Sheol I cried" and "I went down to the moorings of the mountains; the earth with its bars closed behind me forever; Yet You have brought up my life from the pit, O Lord, my God." That Jonah actually died there also make the analogy Jesus draws from it far more fitting and compelling (e.g. "the sign of Jonah). (in passing, It's also interesting to note that Jonah uses the word "olam" to note that the duration of his "visit" to Sheol was "forever" - alerting us to the fact that that Hebrew word - like its counterpart in the Greek NT, "aion" - does NOT demand translating it "eternal" - for neither of these words literally means "eternal" - but a long period of time...) Then there are passages from 1Peter that seems to - even if vaguely - open up possibilities beyond the grave, including the repentance of the dead.... 1 Peter 3:18-19 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, d he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits..." Then 4:6 "For this is WHY the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does." This is not unlike what Paul says about another "judgment by fire" (and while it may contextually speak of the judgment of apostolic works - may it not be instructive about the purpose and result of God's judgments?): " 12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved-even though only as one escaping through the flames." Or even this verse: "5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord." 1 Cor.5:5 Do these verses prove anything with great finality or clarity? No - but they at the very least SHOULD open us up to the possibilities of the God of the "impossible".. Also, you say "death is the final deterministic aspect of each individual’s eternal fate" - and I would say, "No! GOD in Christ is the First and Last Word on ALL things..." It is HE who "takes away the sin of the world"... HE who said, "when I am lifted up I will draw ALL men to myself" - It is HE who is the Great Shepard that declares He will leave not ONE lost sheep behind. He IS "the Savior of the world" - the entire Cosmos which He created and sustains - and of which He promises that He will finally - in the end - bring about "the reconciliation of ALL things" (Col.1) My fundamental belief as a Christian Universalist is simply this: God IS [Agape] Love. And this Love - revealed above all in Christ - is described as the unrelenting love of 1 Cor.13: It endures ALL things - It NEVER gives up... And this God who is the Father of all (Acts 17:28) treasures ALL who bear His Image - i.e. who ARE His children (see. Gen.5:3) The Love of which I speak here cannot be contain or comprehended - it surpasses ALL knowledge - and its power exceeds ALL imagination! (Eph.3:19-20) Finally - I agree that we do not base our understanding of Truth on "who do I WANT God to be"... But there is something even here from Scripture that seems to say we DO have certain moral intuitions about what is truly GOOD... "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven..."(Matt.7:11 and Luke 11:13) The very fact that we KNOW that any human father who punishes (torments!) their children (let alone their enemies) without ceasing is just not "right" should at least give us pause when we are told that GOD will do just that to everyone who dies without hearing or believing "the GOOD News"?! Even Jesus dares to say, "Judge for yourselves what is right..." It is the image of God - the inner man - that gives us ALL some true sense of what is "right" - what is "good"... And I think Scripture gives us very good reason to believe that the God and Father of ALL would never do such a thing - that, like child sacrifice - it would NEVER even enter His mind (see Jer.19:5 and 32:35) So I would beg you to consider these and many other verses that have a say in this conversation - in answering the question of "post mortem repentance" ... Whatever else Scripture may say (and however we wind up interpreting it) He has promised to restore (Acts 3:21), reunite (Eph.1:10), reconcile (Col.1:20) and renew (Rev.21:5) *ALL* things - and I (for one) do not know how He will do this apart from "post mortem repentance"... Richest Blessings In Him, Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ! -wayne
Good work I have always been amused at the doctrine of such as Arminianism and Calvinism, and their exclusiveness and atempt to disparage the love and mercy of God. Its completely mind boggling, I mean I just don't get them. Sure there is a few snippets to support such a theological stance of an exclusive Gospel. But as a Lawyer, if I am to decide on scriptural evidence alone, Universal Salvation wins handsdown😊 The following I find clarifies such a finding in relation to an all inclusive Gospel of good news Lamentations 3:31-33 For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love. For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to anyone. 1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe. 1 Corinthians 15:22For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.” (Rom. 5:18) Jesus is “able even to subdue all things to Himself.” (Phil. 3:21) Jesus came “that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will.” (Eph. 1:10, 11) The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9) All shall know the Lord, from the least of them to the greatest of them.” (Heb. 8:11) Mercy shall triumph over judgment.” (James 2:13) Every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever.” (Rev. 5:13) Through the greatness of your power your enemies shall submit themselves to you. all the earth shall worship You and sing praises to you.” (Ps. 66:3, 4) For I will not contend forever, Nor will I always be angry; For the spirit would fail before Me, And the souls which I have made.” (Isaiah 57:16) There is no God besides Me, a just God and Savior; there is none besides Me. Look to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath. He shall say, surely in the Lord I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, and all shall be ashamed who are incensed against Him. In the Lord all the descendants of Israel shall be justifed and shall glory.” (Isaiah 45:21-25) In this mountain the Lord of Hosts will make for all people a feast of choice pieces, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of well-refined wines on the lees. And he shall destroy on this mountain the surface of the covering cast over all nations. He will swallow up death forever, and the Lord will wipe away tears from all faces.” (Isaiah 25:6-8) Of those who crucified Him (which is all of us) Jesus declared: “Father forgive them; for they know not what they do.” (Luke 23:34) But God would not take away a life; He would devise plans so that the one banished from Him does not remain banished.” 2 Sam. 14:14 Jesus says: “I pass judgment on no one.” [John 8:15] 4But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth. Titus3: 3-6 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. Romans 11:32
Thanks for your encouragement and the powerful passages that clearly speak of this truly GOOD News! (BTW - I am compiling a list that I will add these verses to [if not already there] sovereign-love.blog/2023/11/12/scripture-proofs-of-gods-eternal-love-%e2%9d%a4%ef%b8%8f/ ) I am increasingly amazed at the number of attorneys that are showing up on the side of Universal Reconciliation - in fact we have several who are part of a "meetup" group we have that has been meeting on a bi-weekly basis (via Zoom). If your either interested in "connecting" either with me or with our group - please reach out to me at: hwaynefair [at] yahoo [dot] com. Blessings In Christ to you and yours! -wayne
It all comes down to who and what you think God is. Christ is the expressed image of who God is. See that, and all falls into place. He showed us who He is.
Indeed! Thanks, Robert! If you happen to be interested in a regular zoom meetup with fellow-Christians who are moving towards embracing this Hope, please reach out to me at hwaynefair [at] yahoo [dot] com Thanks and Blessings! wayne
I was just warned by a older pastor that the exegisis of scripture and especially ephesians 1, in a non calvinist view leads to universlism. Well... here you go.
@@MrHwaynefair I just did a almost 2 hour you tube video speaking with a none Calvinist regarding the myths surrounding Reformed theology. It was very interesting. He wanted to speak on Ephesians 1 but we ran out of time. We will do it in a couple months. He has a difficult time with Calvinism since he only sees the loving side of God and also told me near the end that he does not believe there is a hell like the Bible describes. I believe Calvinists have the proper understanding of Ephesians 1. That is why I believe the doctrines of Reformed theology are correct. Interestingly during the discussion I had, he also did not really like John Piper being so sure of his beliefs on many of these issues. I think that is one of the things we are accused of when we are told we are arrogant to say what we believe. i just read Romans 2 this morning for my devotions. Gods wrath is described very clearly by Paul. As I study more and more I see that the objections are real and brought up by real people. They are not just ideas but people really struggle. By Gods grace, I hope to be someone who can help to speak truth to these things.
It is refreshing to get comments and feedback from a Calvinist that are peaceable and offered in good faith. I was a Calvinist for 15 years (went to Reformed Theological Seminary - studied under R.C. Sproul and J.I. Packer, etc. - pastored a PCA church for 9 years) - and I have come to the conviction (over many years) that the Calvinist have it right - but only half right. I maintain two fundamental theological convictions: God is absolutely Sovereign - and God IS Love. I will not collapse or compromise one into the other - and this (along with many [especially] Pauline texts) leads me inexorably to the belief that God will bring about the reconciliation of "all things" - i.e. all that was created - in, for and through Jesus Christ (Colossians 1). I believe in election - but that election is always ultimately for "the rest" (as I think a faithful reading of Romans 9-11 bears out) - and not exclusively for the salvation of "the elect". This was true of Abraham, Israel, the 12 disciples, etc. The meaning of "firstfruits" is critically important here (as in Romans 11:16) If you are interested please see my recent video, "Why I Left Calvinism"... *I would love to know what channel your recent 2 hour video is on?* Thanks and May God Bless You Richly! wayne
I cannot imagine loving to be in the presence of a sadistic torturer. I am convinced God for whom time is no boundary can persuade in moment that which a person was Incapable of receiving until that moment. As for universal salvation? I won't be upset that No One At All! is going to be tortured & without hope.
For those who cannot bring yourself to believe that God will eventually reconcile all Creation unto himself, I have a couple of thoughts. One, if you really dive into the teaching of the early Church fathers, you will find that it was a belief that was taught by many, and at least considered possible by most others. Two, you don't have to teach it to believe it in your heart - Why wouldn't you want to hold out the possibility that God will ultimately save all his creation. Three, people who believe in ultimate Christian restoration, believe that salvation is accomplished by Jesus' death on the cross and may require some "age of correction" to bring all to restoration.
Different Levels of Punishment in Hell: Hell HEAVY to Hell LIGHT - “That servant who knew his lord’s will and didn’t prepare, nor did what he wanted, will be beaten with many stripes, but he who didn’t know, and did things worthy of stripes, will be beaten with few stripes,” and even lighter than that? Different Levels of Punishment in Hell - 7 New Testament Statements Matthew 10:14-15, 11:20-24 Matthew 23:13 Luke 12:42-48 Hebrews 10:26-31 2 Peter 2:1-2, 10-22 James 3:1 Revelation 20:11-15
I ask sincerely: Are you here (on this channel) to "prove" you are right - or are you willing to enter into a "good faith" dialog? Steve Gregg is (I am sure) very aware of your objections - and in the full video (of which mine is only an excerpt) he presents each perspective (there are at least 3: Eternal Conscious Torment, Annihilationism and Historic Christian Universalism) very evenly and fairly. He sees what I think that maybe you do not see[?]: there are Scriptural "proof texts" for each view - the question is where will you "land" - which texts will reign supreme over interpreting the other passages that seem to run in a different direction. One thing (for instance) that it appears you may not have deeply considered is the meaning of "aionios" in (for example) Matthew 25:46 - it is *mistranslated* as simply "eternal" NOT because it cannot mean "eternal" - but because the very word is full of ambiguity and therefore should NEVER be "simply" translated "eternal" - this has mislead countless millions... The Greek word is based on the root word "aion" - which means an "age" (eon"). For example BibleHub says it "usage" is: "age-long, and therefore: practically [?!] eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which *lasts for an age* , as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting." Speaking of "severity" - I have often noted this passage - it is NOT to be ignored (I fully agree with you here). But it is NOT the severity of God that Paul says surpasses all knowledge - it is the LOVE of Christ - out of which flow a power beyond imagination (Eph.3:19-20). In effect Paul is saying (at least implicitly) this is not something I can put into words - it is something you must have a direct revelation of.... Jesus does speak much of hell - *AND I BELEIVE THAT IT IS REAL AND TO BE AVOIDED AT ALL COSTS* - I just do NOT believe it is eternal in duration OR merely retributive in nature. As someone has noted: "there are 1900 plus verses in the four Gospels that contain Jesus’ words. Surprisingly, only about 60 of those verses, or just 3% of them, might be construed as either directly or indirectly referring to Hell. On the other hand, there are more than three times as many verses in the Gospels in which Jesus references Heaven, eternal life, or his coming kingdom: 192 verses in all, or almost 10%." Regarding different levels of hell - thank you for the citations! I fully agree there are different levels - but please consider this: does this not also imply that this punishment is *finite and limited* - i.e. "few" and "many" stripes seem to speak of a measured and equitable justice - perfectly fitting to the person being punished - and NOT going on forever (which would make "few" and "many" meaningless)? You say that holiness is the greatest of God's attributes? How can you say that so dogmatically? Scripture never says that - that is your interpretation of (I guess) the fact that the angels exclaim, "Holy, Holy, Holy!". But Scripture NEVER says "God IS holiness" - but it DOES say, "God IS Love". I take that as a statement of "essence" - not "attributes". In my (limited and faulty) understanding - ALL of God's attributes flow out of His essence - therefore *God is not opposed to Himself* - i.e., His judgments must be a reflection of (and not divorced from) His essence: Love. Consider this when it comes to His Holiness: The thrice-Holy God enters into Eden and interacts directly with His fallen offspring - He doesn't just send in some avenging angels and have done with them! He even preaches the GOOD News to them that a Savior will come someday and crush the head of Satan... Holiness does NOT mean He is simply wrathful and hateful towards sinners... We see in Christ the full revelation of God: he was a friend of sinners! And TRUE friendship even means "wounding" your friend ("faithful are the wounds of a friend") Also please consider this remarkable passage when it comes to understanding God's Holiness: "I will not carry out my fierce anger, nor will I devastate Ephraim again. For I am God, and not a man- *the Holy One* among you. I will not come against their cities." - Hos.11:9 Finally - Don't merely look at your proof texts - Look wide-eyed at those that are in tension with your current perspective... You must wrestle with these passages that stand in tension with your current emphasis on God's severity and "eternal hell": 1. The restoration of ALL things - Acts 3:20-21 2. The recapitulation (unifications) of ALL things - Eph.1:10 3. The reconciliation of ALL things - Col.1:20 4. The renewal of ALL things - Rev.21:5 I could cite several other verses that point us to this great and ultimate Hope - the total Victory of Christ over Satan and sin - What I believe to be the unconditional Good News (a "blunt indicative" - not just an invitation or a possibility/provision - but the certainty that Christ WILL subdue ALL things - and it will be finally said that God will be "all in all" 1 Cor.15:28) If you want to dialog about this I welcome it - otherwise I have demands on my time that will not allow me to enter into a war of words - Blessing in Our Sovereign Lord! wayne P.S. Here are other passages that speak of (or at least allude to) the Hope of Universal Reconciliation: sovereign-love.blog/2023/11/12/scripture-proofs-of-gods-eternal-love-%e2%9d%a4%ef%b8%8f/
Let me try this comment again it got cut off, you said the Bible doesn't come right out and say that there's hope after the grave, but it sure does allude to it in several places, here's just one, in 1 Corinthians 15:19 Paul said, if in this life only we have hope in Christ we are of all men most miserable.!
13:35. I get the point but maybe because the few ones that do accept his sacrifice are so treasured and valuable compared to the ones who reject him...
But did the father of the prodigal treasure and value the "faithful" son more than the returning prodigal? The contention of Christian Universalism is that ALL will ultimately "accept his sacrifice": every knee will bow - and every tongue confess that Jesus IS Lord❤️ And that not one lost sheep will be left behind... There is, no doubt, a place of special honor ("crowns") for those who accept him first - and who faithfully serve him. But then there is the troubling parable of those who worked only a little time (compared to others) but received the same wage... God's love for the sinner and the ungodly (see Romans 5) are certainly amazing and baffling! As a father of four, I could not ultimately love my less compliant children less than the more compliant... Thanks for your thoughts and comment!
@@MrHwaynefair he was only valued after he came back tho. Also we shouldn't use our subjective human view of love to compare to Gods ultimate knowledge and love.
Agreed - but God's Love SURPASSES our conceptions - especially as Love is described in 1 Cor.13... Love keeps no record of wrongs... love endures all things.... Love never fails❤️ As Paul says in Ephesians - The Love of Christ SURPASSES knowledge - Again: God IS Love! Be Blessed! wayne
@@MrHwaynefair it also says God HATES the wicked though. I do agree thoug, that the greatest punishment for a cocky wicked man would be to get humbled and see how wrong and foolish he was and repent. As opposed to just being destroyed.
Yes - and Jesus said we are to hate our parents if we are to follow him... Yes - there are "explanations" - but the words remain there, black and white on the pages - long after the explanations have fallen silent... This is THE greatest issue with Scripture: we even read it "through a glass darkly" - and we all privilege some verses over others... But which are the maximally good and true? It is those that are for me the passages by which I will interpret the others - fundamentally,, that God IS Love - and all other verses - even about His hatred of the wicked - or Esau - I chose to read in that light - the light of His maximal Goodness and Love... Paul does this in Romans 11 - he tells us to behold BOTH the "goodness and severity of God" - but then ends with what is supremely and ultimately true of God: His Mercy on All - that from, through, and TO Him are ALL things❤️ Be Blessed my friend! wayne
maybe? Not sure it really rises to that level - just some basic questions based on some simple observations that challenge conventional interpretations...
@@MrHwaynefair right I'm just speaking in very general terms. But it's still largely hypothetical right? So would you still present hell to someone who wasn't familiar w/ the concept as very likely a place of potentially eternal flames and punishment or would you describe it to the person as a type of temporary correction? Matt10:28/5:28-30 still works for me as a celibate man who hasn't met a godly woman and has to battle against lust and porn temps for example. Mt5:28-30,10:28 is what worked for me and still is working; so the fear of avoiding that terrible fate. But I like this view as far as it not leaving the character of God so maligned
Excellent question, Justin. I cannot speak for Steve - but I think that the threat of eternal separation from God reveals a profound misunderstanding of just Who He really is.... Over the 69 years of my life - and engaging with various Christian understandings of the nature of God - I have finally (for the last 15+ years) come to a place in my own journey where I see God as completely, 100% Unconditional Love (in the same way He is unconditionally God) in His very essence. As Christians we grow toward or away from that Reality - that Living Truth (Jesus himself) - i.e. we mature or not.. And, as 1 John 4:18 says, "perfect [mature] love casts out all fear, because fear has to do with punishment..." Now, of course, that can be interpreted in diverse ways... But I believe that one thing implied is that when we mature in our understanding (and deep acceptance of) God's unrelenting (even furious) Love - then we are no longer motivated by fear of punishments - but by the beauty of His Glory... Believe me - I know the struggle with sexual sin - but I also know that when we fall into that sin that so easily besets us - NO one understands us better than our Abba - and our Lord, who entered into the depths of our human condition (even into the deepest depths of our fallenness)... I have a dear friend who has been part of a group called Samson Society for years - he considers himself to have been addicted to porn for years - even while a priest... but he swears to the healing that this fellowship has brought him in this area - so, Please feel free to check them out (and - to be clear - I am not suggesting that you are "addicted" - and it is not only for those so considered that this group exist) samsonsociety.com/ Blessing my friend! wayne
@@MrHwaynefair yeah well like I said its the fear mt10:28 of getting His wrath col3:5-6 that keeps me from the sin bc I decided it just wasn't worth going to hell over-1cor6:9-11 but to each there own-thanks for the reference
*Since Paul is clear that Christ does **_not_** help angels, how would fallen angels be reconciled to Christ without His help?* *_"Through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross."_*_ --Col.__1:20_ *_"For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham._*_ Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted." --Hebrews 2:16-18_
That's an interesting paradox - but Scripture is full of them. Both things are "clear" (largely depending on who is looking and which direction they are predisposed to). Neither I nor Steve Gregg claim (of a certainty) that "fallen angels [will] be reconciled". I think that is an open question that resides in the middle of the paradox itself (at least it is for me). What I both believe and teach is that those who are made in God's image will be reconciled - because they are the offspring of God (Acts 17), etc. Also - if you over-literalize the Hebrews text you quoted - you would also have to say you must be the "offspring of Abraham" to be helped, which would exclude Gentiles... I just don't think that is a dogmatic point of the text - but what is the point is that Jesus shared in our humanity to help all of humanity, etc. Thanks!
As to the bible being silent as to man’s opportunity to repent after death, it is not silent, at least not totally. From Hebrews 6:4-9 we at least know that the fires of “hell” have nothing to do with salvation.
That passage says NOTHING about hell… So- how do you “know” what you claim to know? “Our God is a consuming fire” - “We will ALL be salted with fire” Paul speaks of of fire that will try every man’s work… and an escape “as through fire” Are you really so sure you understand “hell”? I am fundamentally sure of ONE thing: God IS Love- and all He does- even the fiercest “hell” comes ultimately out of His Love…
@@MrHwaynefair granted. Whatever these fires are that burn the thorns and briars, they obviously, according to the author, are not something that accompany salvation. Heb 6:9. That was my point. You missed the point perhaps because you night not even bother to take the time to carefully consider alternative points of view. Maybe???
@@BuildingHisHouse You are right- I was irritated and it showed… I hope you can forgive me that even if you totally disagree. I watched your video on Eternal Torment and the Mystery of the Slain Lamb. I can tell your love for Christ is very deep and sincere… but we couldn’t disagree more on your understanding of the Love of the Lamb…. the “love” you described there is limited- unlike the Love described in 1 Corinthians 13. You put the wrath of God on an equal footing with His Love… But scripture never says, “God is wrath” - but it does say, “God is Love” - and Love never fails… You quoted and sung one of my favorite hymns- and wept while you did… I believe you know in your heart that the Love of our Father is greater than anything either of us can imagine… Could God really be that Good? Yes!
@@MrHwaynefair I agree with you. I may have even quoted in that video someone who once said that the wrath of God is as perfect as the love of God, for they flow from the same bosom. That, of course is not scriptural, and you are correct, God's wrath is not who He is, but He is love! I no longer use that quote, nor do I agree with it. I no longer put His wrath on the same level as his love. So far as eternal torment, I cannot conceive of it, but I currently see it clearly taught in scripture, though I could be wrong, of course. If you can answer my arguments for it in a substantive and biblical way, I am certainly open to being corrected. I don't know if I can post a link here or not. I tried earlier, and it appears that it was not allowed, but I will try to post it again in a reply to this reply. It is an article I wrote on the subject called Eternal Judgment - Are Universal Reconciliation or Annihilationism True?
@@BuildingHisHouse - please send the link to my personal email address: hwaynefair [at] yahoo [dot] com Wherever you land (for now - for we are both on a journey into the heart of God...) on this very important issue/question - I just want to share something that struck me so profoundly not too long ago: Paul, the great Apostle, never seemed to be at a loss for words - e.g. he could talk on and on into the night (Acts 20:7) trying to express the immeasurable riches of the Reality of Jesus Christ that he first encountered on the Road to Damascus... In his magisterial letter to the Ephesians he seems to make a remarkable admission (at least by implication): that with all the inspired words he wrote to them (and us) - there is one thing above all about this Christ that we could never grasp even if written about...And that one thing is "the Love of Christ"... and so he prayed (as I do for you - and I beg you to do for me) - *to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ and to know this love that surpasses knowledge* (Eph.3:18-19) Again - that old hymn puts it so beautifully and touches my heart so deeply: "to write the love of God above - would drain the oceans dry - nor could the scroll contain the whole - though stretched from sky to sky..." (of course, not surprisingly, my favorite line is: "it goes beyond the highest star, and reaches to the lowest hell...) I look forward to reading your article, Mark - and I want to thank you for showing me afresh what Christ-like humility looks like... Blessings in His Immeasurable and Abounding Grace and Love! wayne
the problem is, some people NEVER STOP turning away from God. that is what kills them. They shall never return. He is the source of life. obedience is life ( like the instruction to Adam to NOT eat the fruit). on the day we stop obeying Him, is the day we begin to die. But of course we also inherited all the damage to the human genome that resulted as well. Christ came to save us from this inheritance and our own sins, and salvage us for eternal life. Because some of us are " fixable" while others are not, and they are culls who will never return to Him nor cooperate with Him for salvation.
“Who then can be saved?”- the disciples “… with God ALL things are possible”- Jesus “18Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.” Romans 5 Blessings! wayne
Some translations are worded, Their part will be in the lake of fire burning with sulfur. A synonym for "part" is - portion. So, rendering that as something that would go on endlessly wouldn't make any sense.
True if it was endless then Hell has no purpose and no possible outcome, doesn't make one bit of sense. And if death itself is finally thrown in lake of Fire how could this so called Hell possibly be literal
The heart. . Picture a first round draft pick who turns into a bust. Then picture a seventh round pick who turns into a hall of famer. It's not the quantity, but the quality. The perseverance. Even one who repents makes all of heaven stand still. . Because it's a rare heart that is able to see what it does unto others. "What you have done for the least of these you have done for me. What you didn't do for the least of these, you didn't do for me" The heart determines the punishment. Only a repentant heart. . That is. . A heart that becomes self aware. . Will do unto others in a way that does not burden them. "My yoke is easy and my burden is light". Like human beings desire to create the holy grail of computer technology. . A self aware system. . So to it that God builds this world to make a self aware heart. . That becomes his bride. But not a bride he has to control. Or a bride who goes astray. . But a bride that challenges him. . Is strong. . One he does not control. . But at the same time is his match. God made eve for Adam because he saw all the work Adam was doing and that he was lonely. . So too did God work for six days and then rested. God is building a self aware bride. . Heart. . One where he doesn't need to be God to them. . But one who loves him even though he is God. . But doesn't see him in that way. She treats him as one she loves.
There is no hell in the true Hebrew or Greek scriptures, the Hell wordcame to us Viva the Latin Vulgate, Jesus never said it,and his apostles never taught it,!!
God has taken it upon Himself to play a chess game with the enemy in order to conquer death hell and the grave so that none should perish. So we must ask ourselves, at what point does He abandon play? Because that’s what would be required for any soul to be lost. Our salvation is not about us and whether we are good enough or not. We will be restored for the sake of Jesus and for the sake of God’s plan and will.
It is indeed possible that I am wrong about what I’ve believed. And yes I am very much looking for truth. By way of background, I am 25 years in the CC movement and am currently a CC Pastor. I’m kind of ashamed to admit that I have never given a second thought to alternative theological views but instead trusted my pastors and teachers as smarter and wiser than myself They must have done their homework,, right?? Anyway,, I have a quick question regarding hell What does the almillennialist believe. Is hell real and is it eternal. Do they believe that a person can be saved if they die in their sins and rejection of Jesus. We’ll start slow. Lol.
Thanks so much for your kind and good-spirited reply, Robert! I look forward (if you are interested) in an ongoing dialogue - as we both prayerfully seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and in that Spirit to build one another up in our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ❤️ First of all I will try and answer your question - then a bit of a bio so you can better know who I am - and where I am coming from… I have to admit that when I first read your response I thought you were asking me “what does the ANNIHILATIONIST believe” 😂 Then on second reading I realized you were asking about amillennialism. Briefly, I would say that this position does (typically) believe that hell IS real - and that those who “die in their sins” will at that point find their eternal fate forever sealed. Steve (who is an amillennialist) may be an exception to this predominant perspective. The main distinctive (in my opinion) is that there is no “literal” millennium - and that things will (overall) get progressively worse until the “second coming” of Christ. (I used to be a PCA pastor - and many of these Presbyterians are amillennialist.) So it does not necessarily dictate or entail what one believes about “final judgment” per se. BTW - By CC do you mean Calvary Chapel? Let me make it very clear that I am not Steve Gregg (who, of course, has a history with Calvary Chapel). The video you commented on is the second most watched video on my channel (Sovereign Love). The reason I extracted it from the larger video is because it is SO refreshing to me when someone (especially a pastor or teacher) actually takes time to consider (in good faith) the claims of what I call “Historic Christian Universalism” - or ‘Biblical Universalism”…. There are so many assumptions imposed on this position that lead most Bible-believers to just toss it in the “heresy bin”. In the end Steve is NOT saying that he personally embraces this position - but he does affirm that it can have a true Biblical basis and is very worthy of consideration…. The video comes from a larger presentation of three historic view of “hell” by Steve found here: th-cam.com/video/jBuG689nM1s/w-d-xo.html So, to reciprocate your sharing about some of your background - here are few things about myself: My name is Wayne Fair and I am from Tuscaloosa, Alabama (home of The University of Alabama). I am 69 years of age - was raised as a PK (preacher’s kid) in the home of a Baptist pastor (moving to various cities in the southeast over the course of my young life). As we Baptist put it - I “felt the call” to ministry at the age of 16, was “licensed to preach” at that time - then at graduation went on to attend the U of A, majoring in Religious Studies and minoring in Philosophy (all of which is said, not to present myself as some kind of “intellectual” - that piece of paper basically qualified me to buy a cup of coffee at the usual prices!) After college (which coincided with marriage to my wife, Pat, now approaching our 50th anniversary - evolving into 4 children and 13 grands [so far!]) I then proceeded to seminary at Reformed Theological Seminary, Jackson, MS. I forgot to mention that in my early college years I had been exposed to the “Reformed” perspective and found Romans 9 so compelling I embraced “5-Point Calvinism”. It took several decades for me to get around to seriously reading Romans 10-11 - which led, with deep repentance, to my departure from that perspective… but that’s another story - which I, BTW, flesh out in my “Why I left Calvinism” series on this channel… I pastored full time for several years - then bi-vocationally for a few as I began a parallel career as a software engineer (or, more modestly, just a plain old “computer programmer”) About 17 years ago I embarked on a journey that has changed my life… somehow (and, with fading memory, I cannot not say precisely how) I began to ponder God’s ultimate plan and purpose for His creation - which inevitably led me to consider “ultimate” eschatological questions (and, by the way, this is distinct from “penultimate” question, which I consider ones “millennial” position to be “penultimate”) - i.e. where is “all this” headed? Is it really as simple as I have been taught: that there will be an eternal divide down the center of God’s creation between those who are forever “lost” in the fires of hell - and those (few?) who have had the good fortune of hearing the Gospel and embracing it? Is that really “Good News for all” - or just a “good possibility” for the few? We can explore the details as deeply as you wish, but for now I will just say that it led me to ultimately embrace a very deep and transforming belief in the restoration, reunification, reconciliation and renewal of “ALL things” - to the Glory of God the Father. And (to school off of your question about amillennialism) I DO believe in a very real “hell” - but I am convinced that it is not “eternal”. Why? Because of one little Greek word often used in the New Testament along with “punishment”: aionios. To “translate” this word as simply “eternal” is NOT “translation” - it is “interpretation”. As the BibleHub “Strongs” dictionary puts it: 166: αἰώνιος Definition: agelong, eternal Usage: age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting. biblehub.com/greek/166.htm All I want you to take note of here is THE AMBIGUITY (at the least in terms of the Greek definition and usage) - i.e. that it does not simply (or by default) mean “eternity” - THIS was what began my journey into Christian Universalism - it cracked open (ever so slightly) a possibility: maybe the Good News is better than I ever imagined! (much more to come later, should you so desire). Maybe the Good News is, as one NT scholar has said, “a blunt indicative”!? Forgive this old windbag for going on so long… I very much look forward to hearing your thoughts and reflections, Robert! Richest and Eternal Blessing in Him Who Is the Fount of ALL Blessings - God our Father, “the Savior of all people” (1 Tim. 4:10) -wayne P.S. Just in case you want to dig deeper into the fundamental “aionios” issue - here is an excellent article: afkimel.wordpress.com/2022/06/05/sometimes-eternity-aint-forever-aionios-and-the-universalist-hope-2/ There are many books and resources - e.g. Biblical video presentations, that I can recommend - but I will leave that for later should you be interested 👍🏼
Rob - While I would love to hear back from you, I won't spam you with "replies".... I just want you to know that should you ever desire to go deeper in this conversation that I am here for you... May God continue to richly bless you, your family, and your ministry! In Him Who IS Love, -wayne
Sneaky. Nothing like comparing yourself as a better man than a Holy God. No one likes the doctrine of Hell. That doesn't make it go away though. Very dangerous teaching - and he can call it pondering all he wants to remove accountablity but that strategy is as old as it gets, just repackaged. Saddes part is the impact stuff. like this will have on souls who had the itching ears and heard what they wanted to hear. This is not loving at all. Hell is real, and love warns about that.
Steve NEVER denies the doctrine of hell - it's very real, very hot and lasts for an "age" ("aionios" does NOT simply mean "eternal") - If you believe in a god who will torture His own offspring for all eternity (or even His enemies, whom He is said to love) - you believe in a moral monster - not the God who IS Love. Love is fierce and unrelenting - and our God IS a consuming fire. Jesus said, "we must ALL be salted with fire" (Mark 9:49) May God help us both to see better and better the height, depth and breadth of the LOVE of Christ that surpasses knowledge!
@@MrHwaynefair I think we need to be carefuol of calling God a monster if Hell is eternal, or as Steve said, He would be vindictive. God is Holy, Holy, Holy. Do you or any of us begin to grasp His Holiness? I don't. I believe what His Word says, and don't rely on my understanding. I hate the doctrine of Hell. And, out of love for lost people who will go to Hell without trust in Christ, telling them there is no eternal punishment for rejecting Christ, is unloving. What he does here, and in context of saying its possible is not loving, or as someone put it, it is 'loving' people straight to hell. No one wants it to be true, but that doesn't mean it isn't.
I did not call the true and living God a moral monster - He isn't, He *IS* Love. The false "god" of tradition (who tortures His own children for an eternity) doesn't exist - but if he did he WOULD be a "moral monster"! Yes! God IS "Holy, Holy, Holy" (and - "the WHOLE earth is FULL of His GLORY!") - which means *there is NO one like Him* ! And YES - NONE of us can "grasp" His Holiness! But the Bible nowhere says that about His holiness - but it *DOES* say we cannot grasp His Love: "the LOVE of Christ that surpasses knowledge.... [He] is able to do more than we can think or imagine" (Eph.3:19-20). NO ONE is like God when it comes to His wrath - for example consider: "I will NOT carry out my fierce anger, nor will I devastate Ephraim again. For I AM GOD, and not a man- *THE HOLY ONE* among you. I will not come against their cities." - Hos.11:9 He is HOLY in this: "I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity." - Jonah 4:2 Do you not see that you are failing to consider that you cannot separate His Holiness from His Love? God is NOT internally divided - he is NOT schizophrenic! Do you NOT believe that Love "keeps no record of wrongs" - that Love "endures all things" - that Love "NEVER fails"? The Bible PROMISES that God WILL restore ALL things - reunite ALL things - reconcile ALL things and renew ALL things. *Do you NOT believe this?* So I too believe "what His Word says" - BUT, what *translation* of "His Word" do you believe? Here are two that accurately capture the meaning of the Greek word "aionios" (MIS-translated as "eternal" in what YOU call "the Word of God" - but is only a translation/interpretation of the original Greek and Hebrew texts) in Matt.25: ""And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages."" - Weymouth New Testament "And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'" - Young's Literal Translation "Aionios" (MIS-translated as simply "eternal") definition/usage from BibleHub: "age-long, and therefore: practically[!] eternal, unending; partaking of the character of *that which lasts for an age* , as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting." - Aionios" is from "aión": an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity. Again - I believe in the TRUE hell that burns with the consuming fire ["our God IS a consuming fire"] of the Wrath of God's Love ("Love is not *easily* angered" - but there is NOTHING that can become more angry than real Love - "LOVE is strong as death, jealousy is fierce as the grave. Its flashes are flashes of fire, the very flame of the LORD." - Son of Solomon 8:6 I beg you - ask yourself, "WHY do I HATE the doctrine of hell"? Because you know in your "inner man" - the image of God (which is Jesus Christ, THE Image of God) stamped on your very being, the very source of your conscience.... You intuitively know that the traditional "doctrine of hell" simply isn't right - just - or fair. God is the perfect (AND Loving) judge - he will mete out judgments and (restorative) punishment so that Jesus himself says that *some will be beaten with many stripes - others with few* (see Luke 12:47-48) But you *CAN* Love and embrace the TRUE "doctrine of hell" held by many (maybe even most!) Christians of the first 300 years (and is reported by many of the early writers/theologians like Clement, Origin and Gregory of Nyssa) - because they understood it as an expression of God's SEVERE but Fatherly Love towards all who bear His image - all who are inescapably His children. Think about it: Does God - who CANNOT change - LOVE the sinner and unbeliever - UNTIL they die - then cease to Love them? NO! His LOVE endures forever! (see Psalm 136 - it affirms this 26 times!) But, regarding His anger, the Bible says: Psalms 103:8-13: "He does not become angry quickly, and he has great love. He will not always accuse us, and *he will not be angry forever* ". Psalms 103:9: "He will not always accuse, *nor will he harbor his anger forever* ". Isaiah 57:16: "For I will not contend forever, *nor will I always be angry* " Jeremiah 3:5 *Will He be angry forever? Will He be indignant to the end?* This you have spoken, but you keep doing all the evil you can." Jeremiah 3:12 Go, proclaim this message toward the north: 'Return, O faithless Israel,' declares the LORD. 'I will no longer look on you with anger, for I am merciful,' declares the LORD. ' *I will not be angry forever* . Micah 7:18 Who is a God like You, who pardons iniquity and passes over the transgression of the remnant of His inheritance--*who does not retain His anger forever* , because He delights in loving devotion? Finally - please consider that THIS is what "the Word of God" says: Lamentations 3:31-33 For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love. For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to anyone. God BLESS you as you continue to wrestle with this - to wrestle with God (as did Jacob) and His Word! -wayne P.S. Here is a link full of eight-plus pages of scripture passages that reveal the eternal Love of God for ALL: sovereign-love.blog/2023/11/12/scripture-proofs-of-gods-eternal-love-%e2%9d%a4%ef%b8%8f/
@@MrHwaynefair God's foremost attribute is He is *holy,* not just love, which includes "severity": Romans 11:20 ..Don’t be conceited, but FEAR; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches [the truly ethnic Jews], neither will he spare you. 22 See then the GOODNESS *and SEVERITY* of God. Toward those who fell, SEVERITY; but toward you, GOODNESS, IF YOU CONTINUE in his GOODNESS; OTHERWISE YOU WILL ALSO BE *CUT OFF* [like in Mt. 7:19 and John 15:6]. The "severity" side of God is constantly avoided in sermons today, K-LOVE's "positive and encouraging"-only music, what's shared in social media. It's serious error to determine doctrine based upon only one side of God's character, which is what I see is going on here. Many statements Jesus makes about hell being eternal aren't mentioned at all, and the serious warnings about avoiding hell in the New Testament. Paul presents the balanced view of God in Romans 11, which I don't hear any pastors/teachers teaching today, just as hell is hardly mentioned, so the majority of "Christians" aren't walking according to the Spirit, but according to the flesh. Most lust without ever fully repenting, including pastors, so Satan is being allowed to destroy America and the world at the fastest pace in recent centuries. About 90 New Testament passages refute "once saved only saved" and "only believe," and in many of these are warning about hell if we don't overcome by God's grace, by walking according to the Spirit. "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." Modern teaching, starting with Luther and Calvin (or maybe even more so, Beza), then jumping to Billy Graham and now almost everyone has removed the fear of the Lord, so Jesus' prayer in John 17 and goal in Ephesians 4:11-16 is being ignored. Instead of revival, we have apostasy, almost all born-again Christians being lust-demon driven, many hating people, etc.. They're in the wrong list in Galatians 5, which Steve ignored in his teaching on Galatians.
I do not believe the scripture ever mentions "hell". Gehenna, or however it is spelt, is a physical place outside old Jerusalem. It's the trash dump where the fires burned perpetually. It's even the place where adherents to the baal cult sacrificed their children. In Matthew, the Lord says those who do not get out of Jerusalem with it's coming destruction will end up in Gehenna, hell, where their bodies will be burned. This actually happened in 70 AD when Rome sacked Jerusalem. There is no post mortem place for souls separated from God. Church leaders such as Augustine and reform theologians made up hell to keep their congregates in line just as fundamentalist and evangelical ministers do the same today. I'll never again support these places that pervert the love and mercy of the true Christian God!!
Hey Trevor - would you like to chat (zoom) sometime? If you're interested - just reach out to me at: hwaynefair [at] yahoo [dot] com (and if you're just too busy - no worries or pressure!) Thanks and Many Blessings! -wayne
If the majority of people go to hell or are eternally separated from God, then that would mean Saten is the victor, and God loses. What a perfect God create a plan that didn't go as planned? Would God create irredeemable people? Afterall Jesus said with God nothing is impossible, but the church says redeeming all people is impossible. The fire is symbolic in the lake of fire it's not literal. Look at the use of the word fire in judgment in 1st Corinthians chapter 3:13, it tests the quality of each man's work, it's not there to burn them and torture them screaming and hollering for all of eternity so God can get his jollies. The cross = love for sinners Hell= hate for sinners See the contradiction
You cant take the position that God does not want forced confessions and God will make a new way for those that die in rejection to His only way of salvation “For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another- He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of MANY To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.” Hebrews 9:24-28 NKJV
Thanks, for your comment, Robert. I have two questions for you (before replying to your objection): 1. Are you interested in a "good faith" discussion? 2. Is it just possible you are wrong (but not completely) about what you currently believe about God's justice and judgment? Thanks and Blessings! wayne
Steve Gregg was one of my first Bible teachers. So I hope this rebuttal is understood to be coming from a place of love and respect: Your reasoning seems to be predicated on notion that being human is synonymous with being a child of God. I’m afraid this can’t be the case. For how then could our LORD call the pharisees children of the devil? How also could God denounce those whom He “never knew” if they are or even were at one time His children. Furthermore, how might it be said of Judas Iscariot that it would’ve been better if he “had never been born” if all are destined to be reconciled to the Father? Universalism-particularly “Christian” universalism is appealing to my human reasoning. But as Proverbs 14:12 says, “There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.” God did not apologize or defend His character before righteous Job. Nor should we feel compelled to do so on God’s behalf before His enemies. Preaching this more palatable version of Jesus will most certainly rid people of their fear of the LORD, and could possibly cause them to fall in love with a false doctrine and a false christ. I know that is not the goal of Mr Gregg’s sermon. And if he truly is in limbo on this matter, I pray the LORD brings him out of this potentially dangerous deception that is sweeping the modern church. Blessings.
I acknowledge and genuinely appreciate that your critique comes from a place of love and respect - and that your counter argument is offered in good-faith. Let me respond as best I can… We can each try to establish our perspectives by picking various passages as grounds for our perspectives/positions (and I am very certain Steve has considered the conundrum you raise about “children of the devil” and would have an illuminating answer). The answer (to me) lies somehow in the profound statement from Psalm 119, “the sum of thy word is truth”. First I would observe that Jesus at times made statements that can only be ultimately taken as hyperbole - extreme and shocking things that are intended to arouse the hearers from their spiritual slumbers - and are not intended to be the only or final word on the matter. One of the best examples of this I can think of is where he said in plain and unambiguous terms that if we are to follow him we must HATE our parents. This is what the Greek of the text literally says - but is it what He literally means? - in some ultimate and final sense is this what Jesus means or intends? I think the answer is obvious: No. Why? Because we know there are OTHER passages that are countervailing - e.g. we are to honor our parents - we are to love ALL, even our enemies, etc. So with Jesus calling the Pharisees “children of the devil” - they think of themselves as children of Abraham - but Jesus (I believe) seeks to arouse them - shock them into another perspective by His rebuke. Jesus calls Peter “Satan” - is this literally true - especially in a way that totally obscures His relationship with and love for Peter? Of course not. To counter-balance your doubt about all humanity as God’s children - you must come to terms with such passages as Acts 17 where Paul affirms (twice) that “we are all His [God’s] children” (Amplified Bible). I believe this is especially grounded in the fact that each and every human born is “fearfully and wonderfully made” in the image of God. I think it is instructive here to see that the very first place the double-description “image and likeness” are used after Adam’s creation is Genesis 5 - where we are told that Adam had a son in his “image and likeness” - Seth. Jesus seems to assume His audience has this relationship with God - often saying of them “your Father”, etc. I think the mystery of this relationship - even the ambiguity of it is captured in His statement about loving ones enemies, “that you may become children of your heavenly Father” - which seems to be saying God is already your Father - but you need to become [mature?] what you are - actually “live into it”, so to speak. About Judas - there is at least one thing to consider: it does not say it would not have been better had he not existed - i.e. what if Judas had been conceived but never born (alive)? That is among the possibilities of what this emotionally charged text could mean. I simply do not believe that cherry picking such verses presents us with an irresolvable problem or ultimate contradiction to God’s universal Love and intention to save “all”. So we must ultimately ask: is someone like Judas beyond all hope - beyond the power of God? Jesus answers such a question when he speaks of the camel going through the eye of a needle - and on the possibility of the rich being saved: The disciples “got it” and asked “who then CAN be saved”? Jesus’ answer - “with God ALL things are possible”. Paul echoes this ultimate truth when time and again he states “God is able…”. Perhaps we, like Abraham, “hope against hope”… I would offer for your consideration these final thoughts: There simply are many passages that explicitly give us the promise of God’s universal intentions - plan - and purposes. Steve has not simply gone off the rails with mere human reasoning or desire - he is genuinely wrestling with Scripture that counters the assumed belief in eternal conscious torment! Most powerful (to me) among them are such passages as Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15 which present Christ as the last Adam - and that just as none of us were consulted (e.g. our free will) about the effect of Adam’s sin and the condemnation that comes to us ALL through his actions - so also (“how much more”) is the redemptive effects of Christ death and resurrection brought to ALL. God does not intend or purpose that the end or goal of creation be an eternal divide between heaven and hell - His purpose is through Christ (the Final WORD) to “reunite all things” (Ephesians 1) and the “reconciliation of all things” (Col.1) (and I take “all things” to be all created things - create in, by and for “Him”, Jesus Christ!) He takes away the sin of the world - He will draw [drag] all men to himself when He is lifted up - He will leave the 99 and not return until He has found the last lost lamb… God desires that ALL be saved - and in His Sovereign Love, this love will not be ultimately frustrated - He sent His Word into the world that the world might be saved - and His Word will not return to Him void but will accomplish all for which it was sent…. (Isaiah 55:11) The greatest story that Jesus gave about this is that of (what we call) the prodigal son… That son represents each and every one of us… and it was finally said of him that “he came to himself” - he woke up to his true identity as a son of his father… and in repentance made his way “home” to the Father… That awakening awaits each and every one of us: every knee will bow and every tongue will swear allegiance - God’s desire to “have mercy on all” will see its fulfillment - for “from Him and through and to Him are all things”. God’s richest blessings on you as you continue your journey into the heart of the Father!
Brother, I come to terms with Acts 17 by understanding that Paul’s appeal to his Grecian audience is a tactful one, in which he uses elements that a Greek would already understand to impart a doctrine that would have otherwise sounded very foreign and very Jewish. I do not believe that the alter erected to “THE UNKNOWN GOD” of the Athenians was actually built to honor Jesus or even YHWH. But just as Paul used this as a means to introduce them to the one true God, I believe he likewise used an excerpt from their “own poets” (Acts 17:28) to introduce them to the Spirit of Adoption through Christ, by faith. The concept of adoption, by the way, would hold very little meaning for those who are already the offspring by nature. I may be wrong, for I am no scholar, but it is my understanding that the biblical patriarchs did not think of human beings as sons of God, but reserved such titles for heavenly beings. And I wholly reject our LORD giving us the power to be called children if The Most High as a mere euphemism for humans recognizing and embracing their own intrinsic nature, value and potential. That belief is New Age and did not come from above. Now concerning hyperbole. I fully acknowledge the Bible’s frequent use of it so as to illustrate deeper truths. That said, the truth which we extrapolate from out LORD’s use of hyperbole cannot be the exact opposite of what He is figuratively saying. Otherwise what would be the point of saying anything at all? If I say I can run like the wind, I must at very least be pretty fast, or else I am not being hyperbolic but a liar. Calling the Pharisees children of the Devil is in perfect harmony with other passages of scripture, such as the wheat and the tares, the sheep and goats, the wise and the foolish and so forth. If you insist that in every single one of these instances our LORD is merely speaking hyperbolically, I won’t argue with you (nor will I agree). But I hope we can at least agree, in light of what the scriptures teach us, both in literal and figurative terms, that to be God’s child in any sense that actually matters, one must be in Christ, the only begotten Son of The Father. I apologize if it seems like I was cherry picking verses, such as what our LORD said concerning Judas. That said, the Bible does say twice (in Mathew’s Gospel and in Mark’s) that “it would’ve been good for that man had he not been born.” Knowing full well the passage to which I’m referring, I’m not sure how much more context you’d need to recognize it as a legitimate strike against your viewpoint. Particularly when you consider (as even Mr Gregg has admitted) that the Bible is very much silent on the matter of repentance post judgement. I noticed you’re quoting from the Amplified Bible. And you know what, good on you, because I am not the King-James-Bible-only sort of Christian. However, concerning Romans 14:11, I found that most other translations read, “Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess TO God,” which makes sense to me, in light of the scriptures that speak of The Great White Throne judgement. That said, I am no linguist, but it seems a far cry from that to say that “Every tongue will swear allegiance to God.” And as a musician I’m reminded how amplification tends to creat distortion. Food for thought. On the surface this may seem like a secondary issue. But I hope through this critique to point out just how close you are to a gnostic heresy. For I see very little difference between “All roads lead to God” and “And all roads lead to Christ, who leads to God.” If we’re being honest, this is exactly what the Christian Universalist is implying. And I do not believe you can read the Bible with unbiased eyes and come to this conclusion. You just can’t. Understand me, brother. I have every reason in the world to want to agree with you, speaking of my unsaved loved ones, and absolutely nothing at all to lose if I turn out to be wrong. But Jesus gives no such hope to those who reject so great a salvation, such as He offers. Both His words and the warning in my heart tell me that this is a dangerous belief to espouse and even flirt with. And I see more clearly every day the fruit of Universalism in all flavors to be love without truth, grace without repentance, salvation without fruit, sonship without adoption, a god without holiness, a judgement without wrath, a christ with no cross, sin without consequence, a gospel with no power and a church with no Godly fear. My sister and her family became Christian Universalists a few years ago, and such a paradigm shift has not caused them to live holier lives. Quite the opposite in fact. Today, I’m sorry to say, there isn’t a nickel’s worth of difference between them and the World. Her 7 and 8-year-old children roll their eyes at the mere mention of Jesus. And as I understand it, her husband is even now questioning his belief in God entirely… Don’t fall into this pit, brother, and don’t lead others to it. For I am quite sure that there is no bottom. I apologize if this response fails to address every point you made earlier. There were many of them, after all, and my memory only serves me so well. Even so, I hope you receive it just as well as you received my initial rebuttal. Thank you for your time and for taking my concerns seriously. Godspeed.
Thanks again for your irenic and good-faith response. There are different kinds of Christian Universalist - and some indeed make a cheap thing of grace - and basically deny the reality of hell (even as a temporal but potentially very long process of ages of painful refining punishment - but one in which the just punishments of God are carried out - e.g. "some will be beaten with many stripes - others with few" - and "you will not get out until you have paid the last penny", "I will punish to the third and fourth generation" (not eternally) etc. My view (unlike your sister's) is not that of "cheap grace" - and is best captured in such teachers as George MacDonald (see Unspoken Sermons - the chapter on Justice) whose understanding of God is that He IS a "consuming fire" (and that Love is set on fire with the fire of Yah - Song of Solomon) - and He will not let anyone out of the purifying fires of hell until He has removed" all that is not of love's kind"... What should be acknowledged is that we BOTH take the "plain" reading of texts and have to interpret them (adding our own understanding as best we can). I think you greatly minimize what Paul DOES say in Acts 17, for instance - and you wind up making the "children of the devil" passages of fundamental importance - but I (on the other hand) make the image of God (in which we are ALL made) as the grounds for us all being "the offspring of God" of fundamental importance - and therefore the story of the prodigal son as a story true for us all. You see - we are forced by such conundrums to make a choice - and I chose to believe that God IS Love - and His justice, holiness and wrath can NEVER be separated from His essence. What you have not responded to are the many passages that DO minimally hint and others that maximally state clearly that this (universalist) perspective is taught in Scripture. Many (if not most) of the earliest Biblical expositors of the first 300 years of the Church's history took such a perspective (universal reconciliation) - and, for most, Greek was their native language. I know that doesn't "prove" my perspective - but it should weigh in as evidence. Such passages remain "there" after all our arguments are done (both those you make dominant in your interpretation - and those that I make out to be fundamental for my perspective). Steve sees all of this and is trying to come to terms with this paradox and tension - but do you think that he just lacks the proper intelligence to "see" what should be obvious to everyone? So - in the end, my foundational belief is that God IS Love - and the essence of Love is not something that is beyond our understanding (though the limits and boundaries of the Love of Christ are - as Paul clearly states to the Ephesians). My second foundational belief is that we ARE "all His offspring/children" - and this is why we are of such "great worth" to Him - and why He really does "so loved the world"... This also means that I think your take on adoption is fundamentally wrong - you are reading a more modern and Western conception of "adoption" into Paul's word - Consider that Paul says we already have a relation to the "father" before the day of adoption obtains (in Galatians 4:2) This is a good alternative understanding that I take to be closer to the truth of the matter: th-cam.com/video/IOp7foMwmL8/w-d-xo.htmlsi=40JJ8Ao_Uz_ZyzcC IF Jesus came to save the world - will He fail to do all that the Father sent Him to accomplish? I think not - nor can I believe that in the end (after eons and eons of time) that His creation will exist for eternity in utter division - for God's purpose in Christ is to unify "all things" - to reconcile "all things" - and to make "all things" new! Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree - but I DO appreciate your passion and love for our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ - who is "the savior of all men - especially of those that believe"! Blessing on You and Your House! wayne PS - I strongly encourage you to listen to the playlist, "Hope Beyond Hell" - where the fundamental misinterpretation of "aionios" (mistranslated as simply "eternal") is addressed from Scripture...
You,Sir, take criticism like a man, and I earnestly applaud you for it. You’re a credit to your theological camp, whichever kind of Christian Universalist that might be. I truly apologize if I have mischaracterized your beliefs, and am overjoyed that you understand the great cost at which came our amazing grace. As per your question concerning Steve Gregg, I assert that he lacks nothing in intelligence. But neither is he beyond deception. None of us are. As I mentioned earlier, he was one of my first Bible teachers, one whom I still hold in high esteem. I even knew years ago that he was the author of a book that expounded on the three views of Hell. Admittedly, I never read the book. Didn’t think I needed to. I listened to his podcast on the topic, and was quite sure that he in no way regarded all three views as being equal in their scriptural merit. I was led to believe he was in support of conditional immortality, the position I myself hold. Therefore I was surprised to find that he is apparently in limbo on the matter, for reasons I feel have more to do with philosophy than scripture. Nevertheless, being in limbo, he clearly acknowledges that there is at least some, if not substantial Biblical reason to doubt the claims of Universal reconciliation, as I suspect a man as smart as you does as well. And with such reasons, I haven’t the foggiest idea why you wouldn’t err on the side of caution. Particularly in light of Mark 9:42. I understand that you (and evidently Mr Gregg as well) hold man’s intrinsic sonship as fundamentally important to your case. Which is why I attempted to address it in the first place. And, yes, on this I’m afraid we must agree to disagree. For it is my fundamental belief, and paramount to the Gospel, that we become God’s children when we are saved because we are adopted into God’s family through our relationship with Jesus Christ. For what its worth, see 1 John 3:10. You’ve explained away a similar verse with hyperbole. But perhaps you should apply that same logic to certain excerpts you’ve taken from Paul; whom Peter already admits to being “hard to understand,” and not just to verses that undermine your viewpoint. I apologize for failing to address all of the passages that seem to favor your position in this TH-cam comment. Perhaps I’ll write a book someday. But in the meantime, I’ll have to content myself with these: “Some will be beaten with many stripes-others with few.” Amen. I am an annihilationist. “I will punish to the third and fourth generation.” There are no further generations post resurrection. For “in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels in Heaven.” Therefore the passage you’ve cited cannot be about punishment after death. “You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” I’m pleased you brought this one up, in that the meaning you seem to derive from it encapsulates the core reason I utterly reject Christian Universalism. The blood of Jesus saves us from the wrath of God (Romans 5:6-11). Jesus is the master who forgives us the great debt we could not repay. He is our passover Lamb. They who are not sealed with The Blood will have their part in the lake of fire, and the wrath of God will not pass over them. And should they be released from their proverbial dungeon, having actually paid off the immense sum of their debt, it will not have been at our LORD’s expense but their own. Brother, this CANNOT be the case. There is not a hard way and a more expedient way to the Father. There is one way, one hope, one life and all three of them begin and end with Jesus. If He does not pay for the sins, then He is not Redeemer. Can’t you see that this is the logical implication of what your position holds? Therefore I conclude the man in the parable who is thrown into prison until he has paid off every last cent will be there not until he has saved up enough to repay the master, but until he expires. Yes, brother, God is Love. But so say those peddling the prosperity gospel. So say all the gay-affirming preachers and every other goat and tare who will not inherit the Kingdom. To which-if I may quote the Princess Bride-would say, “You keep using that word…I do not think it means what you think it means.” Our God, who is love, is the same God who is thrice holy, who destroyed the world with a flood, who destroyed Sodom with fire, who struck down ananias and sapphira, who separates the sheep from the goats and Who will put all His enemies under His feet; and won’t be any less loving for having done so. Because, as you say, He is love, whether or not our philosophies agree. Anyway, I’ve taken up enough of your time. I promise to listen to Hope Beyond Hell, as you recommended, if you agree to pray earnestly and ask the LORD to reveal the truth of this matter. I will do likewise. You have my word..
Thanks for your kind words - I could echo your sentiments for maintaining a tone of a truly respectful discussion - even in those points wherein we strongly disagree. While we obviously do not agree about “adoption” ( I see it as a setting in and acknowledgment of sonship come of age - more like a Bar Mitzvah than “adoption” in the sense that we are unrelated orphans who are “adopted” by one who is no father at all or in any way to us). But you still haven’t dealt adequately with the paradox that such passages as Acts 17 presents where Paul emphasizes the nearness of God to his pagan audience - and twice calls them “the offspring of God”. This won’t go away… Nor will the profound truth of the prodigal son - he is and remains a true son of his father even in the depts. of his rebellion… And you still have to deal with all that is implied in Genesis 5 and how it relates to our being made in God’s image and likeness (and I take of deep importance the fact that Jesus IS “the image of God” - that we were made in, by and for Christ according to Colossians - and are through faith being remade in that image (of our creator) according to Colossians 3. But where we most fundamentally disagree is on the deepest nature of Love: I believe that true love - the greatest love - seeks what is the very best for “the other” - even for ones enemies. An I believe that Love can include some rather strong and fiery punishments - if it will in the long run bring about repentance and reform. This is NOT a payment for sins - the trespasses against the Law have been dealt with at the cross: “Behold the Lamb of God who TAKES AWAY the sins of the world”. The wages of sin, “death” - have been paid and the resurrection of all is secured. Now the business of conformity to the image of Christ continues - based on the judgment of Christ. “Love is not easily offended… Love keeps no record of wrongs... Love endures all things... Love never fails...” - God is no less loving than this - but infinitely more so! (BTW - I never meant the passage of punishment to the generations to be taken as referring to future punishments - only that as God reveals himself to Moses He doesn’t say that He is a God who punishes for all eternity - and this was before I knew you were an annihilationist - In that regard - I cannot see how you can get annihilationism from “few stripes and many”?!) Please remember that not all truth can be contained in Scripture - for some Truths surpass our knowledge - and Paul could only pray for a direct revelation of this for the Ephesians. And it is the full dimensions of the Love of Christ of which he speaks specifically - and grounded in this Paul says God is able (and dare I say willing) to do far above all that we can think or imagine! I close with this quotation from an old Calvinist (and Westminster Divine) - Peter Sterry - about whom I was shocked to discover that he believed in universal reconciliation by the God of Sovereign Love: “Dear Soul, whoever, whatever thou art, thou art the Offspring of God. St. Paul citeth this from a Poet, confirmeth it by a Divine Testimony, applyeth it Universally to all, maketh it the ground of Evangelical Truths, and Loves; Acts 17. 28. As some of your own Poets have said; We are his Off-spring. St. Paul hath something very like this, Ephes. 3. 9. The Gospel was hid in God from the Foundation of the World, who made all things by Jesus Christ. God had the love of the Gospel in his Heart, and sowed it as a secret Seed in the Foundations of the whole Creation, when he made all things by Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the Seed of Nature, as well as of Grace, and so lieth hid in the Bosom of every Creature, as the true Pearl in the Field. That Divine Image, of which we spake before, was the similitude only, the Mother of Pearl; This is the Substance, the Pearl itself. In the Off-spring of God is the Seed of God. Where the Seed of God is, there is God himself in the Vertue, Power, and fulness of his Divine Nature. For so the Seed of every Plant hath that Plant Virtually, and Spiritually in it. Be now no more unbelieving; but believe. Believe the love, which God hath to thee. Believe, that all the Inclinations of the Divine Will are to thee; that the Eye, and heart of God are turned toward thee in every place, fixt upon thee with all that intention, and force of Sweetness in the Divine Nature. For why? He is drawn irresistibly to his own Seed, his own Son, his own self in thee. Thou art his Off-spring." Should you chose - you may have to “last word” - I will try and restrain myself with further responses. I will continue to pray earnestly that both you and I will have this revelation aof Christ’s Love above all - as well as that we should not err nor (and especially) lead others into the same. Thanks again for the gracious dialog and May God continue to Bless you! wayne
The smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever... no way around this... Revelation 14:11 “And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
"and the smoke of their torment doth go up to *ages of ages* " - Youngs Literal Translation If aionios possibly means "ages" (and I am convinced that in its Greek root meaning, it does) then this opens up new possibilities. I recommend: www.mercyuponall.org/?s=aionios I could rejoinder with several passages that there is "no way around this" when it comes to universal reconciliation (e.g. those that promise the restoration, unification, reconciliation and renewal of ALL things). The bottom line is: do you really believe that God IS Love? For me, that changed everything... But there are no "mic drop moments" for either side of this debate... over years of pondering the question of a place of eternal conscious torment - I can no longer believe it (but I DO believe in a "place" where everything in us that is not of loves kind WILL be burned away by the consuming fire of God's Love ❤️) God bless you beyond imagination! wayne
No man is able to fully understand God's righteousness. If we say God's righteousness is "perfection", we would try in vain to comprehend God's perfect righteousness. Annihilation appeals to human sensibility and emotions. Leave it to God; He knows what His plan is and He will accomplish it perfectly.
And has Scripture revealed *nothing* of His ultimate goal and plan? To restore, reunify, reconcile and renew ALL things in creation? Steve makes no claim or pretension to understand "fully" - he is just questioning what is so often taught as "clearly" Biblical - when it in fact is not. The grandest theological mistake we make (in my opinion) is to divorce His "righteousness" (or justice, or holiness, etc.) from His essence: Love ❤️ God IS Love... (no "ifs", "ands" OR "BUTS" 🤗) Thanks for your comment!
@@MrHwaynefair Amen. Just like His righteousness is perfect, His love is perfect. His plan of redemption and His plan of destruction also is perfect: He, all He is, and all He has planned, is perfect. We are able to know God and His plan to the extent He has revealed it to us in His word. Knowing that God is perfect, we can be confident that His plan for our (believers) glorification will be perfect, and His plan for the unbelievers' station at the "second death" will be perfect, all because our perfect creator has determined it. Whether God's plan for belivers and unbelievers have equally eternal destinies, in light and in darkness respectively, it is His perfect plan to reconcile "all" things to Himself.
Thanks for your comment - But I think that maybe what you are saying is different from what I am saying: "God *IS* Love" is a statement about essence - not attributes. And Love "keeps no record of wrongs" "endures all things" "never fails" So - Yes! - He *WILL* "reconcile ALL things to Himself" - making PEACE through the cross ❤️ "and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross." - Col.1:20 In view of all of this - I can never - ever accept the "traditional" view that God will punish His enemies for all eternity - Why? Because I KNOW that True Love would/could NEVER do that And, besides, Jesus told us to LOVE our enemies - Would God (our Father) do less? Blessings In and Through the Living God, "the Savior of all mankind" (1 Tim. 4:10) wayne
@@MrHwaynefair Hi Wayne, and amen re: God's love. Pauls letter letter (1 Corinthians 13) is addressed to Christians, and in it exhorts believers to show to others the same kind of love God shows toward believers: "to them who love God, to them who are the called according to God's purpose." Romans 8:28. However, since we all have fallen short of God's standard of perfection, none of us are able to love as perfectly as God loves. Many who call themselves disciples of Christ affirm and celebrate sinful behaviors, which God has sovereignly determined to be rebellion towards Him. Affirming and celebrating sin and rebellion is not an act of love; it's an act of evil. God's love is so perfect that He does not affirm sinful deeds and thoughts, but condemns and chastises those who engage in them. To those who reject God's call to turn from sin and believe on the Lord, God's perfect love will give them over to a reprobate mind, be outright rejected by God because they've reoeatedly rejected God's offer of grace and His call to repent and believe; they refuse to ever repent and believe. Ultimately God proves His love for unrepentant sinners by consigning them after death to a place of complete separation from God, and, in God's word, that place of separation is called: "outer darkness", "eternal fire", "shame and everlasting contempt", "torment and everlastimg destruction", a "lake of burning fire where the wicked are tormented Day and night forever and ever." Those who find themselves eternally separated from God are without excuse.
Wait - you say 1 Cor. 13 shows us how GOD Loves? THEN you say (in effect): Love DOES keep a record of wrongs? Love DOES give up - in the end? Love DOES fail? If "God is LOVE" only temporally and conditionally - Then GOD in not forever GOD! But He IS Love - and cannot be otherwise - this is His ESSENCE.... (this is why the "IS" in "God is love" is SO important - but overlooked!) That's not the God I worship - I worship the God and Father of ALL - who will not let His prodigal children go - who intervenes with sovereign Love, power and wisdom (even AFTER death!) He will never give up (just as I would never give up on my on "offspring" (Acts 17)) It is *impossible* to exist apart from God (who IS a Consuming fire!) -"In Him we live and move and have our being" (Acts 17) PLEASE give time to digging into this ONE word that *changes everything*: aionios (as translated in Mt.15 as "eternal punishment" - and elsewhere) Definition: agelong, eternal Usage: age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting. Ask yourself: WHY DO WE INSIST THAT IT MUST ALWAYS MEAN (and mistranslated) "ETERNAL" (e.g. "eternal punishment")? No - it lasts for "an age" - and is perfectly just - and comes from 100% PURE Love ❤️ Remember: "you will not get out until you have paid the last penny" - annd "some will be beaten with many stripes - others with few", etc. - And also consider, "kolasis" - translated "punishment" comes from the word for "pruning" - The heart of Love desires our BEST - our GROWTH into Christ-likeness.... PLEASE rethink your idea of "love" - *IT'S NOT BIG ENOUGH MY FRIEND!* Blessings in Him Who IS "the Savior of ALL mankind"! (1 Tim.4:10) wayne
@@MrHwaynefair Sure, I ask because I think recognizing the audience in 2 Peter 3:9 would shift how you see the passage. It’s a beautiful passage! I just think a meaning is assumed in the video without looking at it more carefully. That’s all! God bless.
Thanks for the clarification! While I cannot speak for Steve - here is my take: It does appear that most NT scholars would say the "audience" is both Jew and Gentile (for what that's worth). For interpretive reasons - I know that some might say he means ONLY those to whom he has written - not "anyone" in general (or universally). But (and, of course I am admittedly inclined to think so) I think the simplicity (lack of greater specificity or narrowing) of the grammar should leave the interpretation universally open to include *all* of humanity. Peter could have used a more narrowing language - e.g. "τις ὑμῶν" - like that used of Paul in 1 Cor. 6:1 "If *any of you* has a dispute with another..." It is (to me) harmonious with 1 Tim. 2 "3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants *all* people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." I hope this helps - Blessing! wayne P.S. For other passages that seem to gesture towards (if not plainly state) this universal hope - see: sovereign-love.blog/2023/11/12/scripture-proofs-of-gods-eternal-love-%e2%9d%a4%ef%b8%8f/
@@MrHwaynefair I much appreciate your honesty about your inclinations. I would say that both 2 Peter 3:9 and 1 Timothy 2:4 have more specific meanings that are very convicting if one doesn’t assume a universal atonement from both. In 1 Timothy 2:4, I know you’ve heard of the argument of categories defining who the “all” is. I see the takeaway from this passage to be “Hey, God desires all kinds of men to be saved, EVEN THOSE IN POWER THAT PERSECUTE YOU”. So, for me, I pray for those in authority over me, to change my own heart towards them. I’m not really good at that, honestly. But, 1 Timothy 2:4 convicts me of it.
And I appreciate your honesty as well - but why not believe in the wideness of His mercy? It is (after all) his Love that surpasses knowledge - and His power that is greater than can be imagined.... (Eph.3:19) Frankly - if Paul or Peter had intended to limit the scope to "all kinds" - I think they could have made that clear. But I acknowledge the potential ambiguity of the word "all" But when it comes to "τὰ πάντα" (lit. the all things) - there is far less wiggle-room. And it means nothing less than the "all things" created in, by, for Christ (Colossians 1). And Scripture uses this same phrasing in reference to the restoration, recapitulation, reconciliation and renewal of "all things". *THAT* - to me - is REAL Sovereignty - and unilateral Victory! So - as is too disappointingly frequent (for me) - I am baffled by well meaning, intelligent people (including us both) who cannot even seem to agree on the meaning of the simplest Biblical proposition: "God is Love". Don't get me wrong... as a former Calvinist I still believe in a very real election - but now (from this perspective) I see them as Paul puts it in Romans 11, "first fruits" of the larger "lump" (the full harvest) - and - that if the first fruits are holy (Paul states) the whole lump is holy. Thank you - it's refreshing to be able to disagree without being polemical ❤️ May God bless you greatly! wayne
The Bible - in its original Greek manuscripts - does NOT say "eternal" - it says "aionios" punishment. And, yes, I believe God means it! BibleHub captures the meaning well: age-long, and therefore: practically[!] eternal, unending; *partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age* as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting. The root word for aionios is aion: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity. God's Word is ultimately and above all the Lord Jesus Christ (John 1) - He is God's FINAL Word - sent by the Father to accomplish His purposes - "that the world through Him might be saved..." That Word above ALL "words" will NOT return to Him void (Isaiah 55:11) - but will accomplish ALL that He was sent to do. Blessings!
@@MrHwaynefair we must ask ourselves “is the doctrine there” NOT “is the word there” For example omnipotent and omniscient are not in the Bible as words however they are there when you look at Gods characteristics. Further the word “Trinity” isn’t in the Bible yet the doctrine is there. Let’s not get too technical when we discuss these things lol
The doctrine of Apokatastasis (the restoration of all things) has been "there" since the writings of the New Testament. Such chapters as Romans 5, 1 Corinthians 15, Ephesians 1 and (especially) Colossians 1 are examples on which the belief in universal reconciliation are based. It was a major view held by many (it could be argued by most) of the varying doctrinal schools of the first 3 centuries of the Church - Until Augustine came along in his latter years and developed the "doctrine" of eternal conscious torment. I would encourage you to actually look into it - for example: (the book) Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years: With Authorities and Extracts by J.W. Hanson. It is available for free here in PDF form: www.mercyuponall.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Prevailing.pdf *If you can disprove the argument of this book I will personally reject Historic Christian Universalism* Blessings in Christ! wayne
Argument from the defeat of God’s last remaining enemy in 1 Corinthians 15:26 This argument states that after all of God’s enemies are defeated with the defeat of the last enemy, death, leading to God becoming “all in all” over a redeemed creation, no enemies can still exist as such-including human “enemies of the cross” (Phil 3:18)-nor can there be any post-defeat defeat of death in their case anyway. Universalism is ruled out because the Bible links the timing and mode of this defeat of death to the immortalizing resurrection of believers. According to 1 Corinthians 15:42-55, the believer’s resurrection, when “the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality,” is the moment when death itself is defeated, that is, “swallowed up in victory.”1 This conquest is grounded in the vision of new creation, when there “will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away” (Rev 21:4 cf. Isa 25:8). But as 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 makes clear, “The last enemy to be destroyed is death” (v26), leaving no more enemies in existence. We are told in this passage that Jesus is right now reigning over “all things,” until he has finally “put all his enemies under his feet” (v25). Only after “destroying every rule and every authority and every power” (v24) does the consummation of salvation history occur, when Jesus submits himself and his rule to God the Father, “that God may be all in all” (1 Cor 15:28 cf. 24). This is precipitated, we are told, by the victory over death demonstrated in the immortalization of believers, which makes them fit for eternal life in the new creation, signaling the destruction of the final enemy, death. The fact that death is utterly defeated at this point means that it is not subsequently defeated gradually, as unbelievers-who were already resurrected but not made immortal in a victory over death-progressively confess Christ. On universalism, they still remain in mortal corruption, just as they are now. Moreover, since all enemies are destroyed by the time Jesus hands cosmic rule over “all things” to the Father, to have been among the “enemies of the cross” (Phil 3:18) is to have already been destroyed. Therefore, the mode and timing of the defeat of God’s last remaining enemy in 1 Corinthians 15:26, and the commensurate absence of any enemy in a fully reconciled creation, rules out universalism. Argument from the rationale for the limited delay of Judgment Day in 2 Peter 3:9 This argument states that since the rationale given in 2 Peter 3:9 is that God is being patient by delaying the day of judgment, “not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance,” this delay expires when judgment day occurs, along with the related opportunity for repentance, thus ruling out universalism.2 In 2 Peter 3, the apostle encourages believers to pursue holiness while “waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God,” the dawning of “the day of eternity” (2 Pet 3:12, 18). This eternal age will fulfil God’s promises of “new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells,” given through the prophets and apostles (2 Pet 3:13 cf. 2-4).3 God is patient rather than slow, and we are to “count the patience of our Lord as salvation” (v15). The purpose of the delay, then, is so that more may repent and not perish. In theory, the delay could have been indefinite, so that all may eventually repent (universalism) and none may perish-but the logic of the passage indicates that in practice God’s will is more particular and conditional. Paul taught that God “has fixed a day on which he will judge the world” (Acts 17:31). Jesus taught that the day of the Lord would take many by surprise, and would come like a thief in the night (Matt 24:36-44). This is reiterated in Revelation 16:15, and 1 Thessalonians 5:2-4, where like a thief in the night the day of the Lord will overtake those who are in darkness, and “sudden destruction will come upon them . . . they will not escape.” It is also reiterated right here, immediately after Peter explains the delay: “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief . . . ” (2 Pet 3:10). Therefore, the rationale for a limited postponement of “the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly” (2 Pet 3:7), as given in 2 Peter 3:9, rules out the opportunity for repentance beyond that same event, and hence rules out universalism as well.
@@MrHwaynefair Argument from the “removal” of what cannot “remain” in Hebrews 12:27 This argument states that a crisis of judgment between the present age and the coming age results, according to Hebrews 12:27, in the “removal” of everything that does not belong to the eternal “kingdom that cannot be shaken,” “in order that” everything that does belong “may remain.” Among human beings, only believers belong to the unshakable kingdom; hence, all others are excluded from the age to come, and universalism is ruled out. Hebrews 12:27 falls within the passage of Hebrews 12:18-29, which draws to a climax an extended discussion that had been building at least since Hebrews 9. We are told there that Jesus appeared “at the end of the ages” to purify and sanctify his people, securing for them an “eternal redemption” for “the promised eternal inheritance” (vv. 26, 12, 15). The earthly tabernacle was a copy and shadow of the true tabernacle in heaven (Heb 8:5 cf. v2; Heb 9:23-24), and Jesus has offered himself as a living sacrifice to gain access to the holy places “in heaven itself” (9:24). But the way is not yet opened to us on earth “as long as the first section is still standing (which is symbolic for the present age)” (9:8). The implication of the present age being a barrier in the cosmic temple, is that the age to come involves full access to God, in a sense uniting the heavens and the earth. The temple access motif is still in play throughout chapter 10, which speaks of “those who draw near” to God, such that without a sacrifice for sins, there is “a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries” (Heb 10:1, 27). It concludes that in approaching God, “we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls” (Heb 10:39). Hebrews 11:1-12:17 is an excursus about that faith and its pursuit of the blessed inheritance. In this context, Hebrews 12:18-29 describes a cosmic “shaking” event that we recognize as the day of judgment. It is patterned after the terrifying Sinai theophany, “a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest,” when “the LORD had descended on it in fire . . . and the whole mountain trembled greatly” (Heb 12:18; Exod 19:18). The concluding statement from verse 29, “for our God is a consuming fire,” wraps up the references to this awesome historic moment, when the manifest “glory of the LORD was like a consuming fire on top of the mountain” (Exod 24:17). At that time God’s thunderous voice shook the earth, but now there’s been this warning from heaven: “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens” (Heb 12:25-26). There is every suggestion, therefore, that God will shake the heavens and earth in the same way as before, by manifesting his glorious presence and its consuming fire. The passage explains why believers need not be afraid at that time. They belong to an unshakeable kingdom, the heavenly kingdom, so will pass through the judgment crisis unscathed. What does not belong will suffer “removal . . . in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken . . . ” (Heb 12:27-28). The purpose and timing of this removal, therefore, rules out the subsequent existence of those who do not belong to the eternal kingdom, thus also ruling out universalism. Bonus: Argument from theophanic infliction of “eternal destruction” in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 There is another argument against universalism that could be simply expressed, but which deserves a more thorough treatment. Indeed, I have already written about it, and would love for you to consider reading this article through, as it presents an important argument for conditionalism, that is simultaneously an argument against other views. Briefly, there is every indication in the context of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 that we are meant to think of “eternal destruction” (which everybody agrees relates to final punishment) as something to occur in the same mode as old testament theophanies (appearances of God). On the day of judgment, Jesus will punish “those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved,” by appearing dramatically “in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance” that issues “from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,” exactly as he will do that day to the figure of the lawless one, whom he “will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming”-an unmistakable reference to theophanic destruction (2 Thess 1:7-9; 2:8-10). We should allow this passage to set its own scene, and not force into it any preconceived notions about eternal destruction supposedly taking place in a separate location we’ve called “hell.” This article, as well as its second part, argue forcefully against that view. Conclusion There are some interesting philosophical arguments in favor of universalism, and some biblical passages that do speak of a future time when God will be “all in all,” as creation is no longer infected by any evil. But universalism has a core tenet that may be directly challenged, namely, its assertion that there will be an indefinite opportunity to repent and be saved beyond the day of judgment, into the everlasting age of a new heavens and earth.4 1 Corinthians 15:26, 2 Peter 3:9, and Hebrews 12:27 (as well as 2 Thessalonians 1:9) give good reason to seriously doubt that scenario, if not to reject it outright. Together, they present a picture of a climax to redemptive history in which-through means of those climactic events of resurrection and judgment-nothing and nobody persists beyond that point, should they be judged not to belong to the new creation.
People who go to hell are not, were not, his children, so God does not feel towards them, like you and I feel towards our children. Bad comparison. And Jesus said, "They will not come to me." He said, "They won't come to me because they prefer to remain in, and sin in darkness." He didn't say, For now, they prefer this. Why is one lifetime too short to look for God, for some people? Is He not able to give each one sufficient opportunity to come to Him, to trust Him, during one lifetime, no matter how short? Also, the problem is not that they need more time. The problem is that they hate God absolutely, and the love themselves and their sins, absolutely. Do you do that? No. Do they? Yes. Hard to believe, isn't it. Yes, it's hard for you to believe because you have never gone this direction.
Are you willing to have a good faith discussion about this? The Bible DOES teach that ALL who bear God's Image ARE His children... And I will tell you where it says this if you want to discuss it with mutual respect. Is it possible that you have never gone in the "direction" of a Love that surpasses ALL knowledge? The Love that the Father has for His enemies? Are you limiting God - by limiting His Love? Would you ever give up on YOUR children? No - not if your love is real - because Love keeps no record of wrongs, Love endures ALL things, and Love NEVER fails ❤️ Remember: God is not just loving - *God IS Love* (and He cannot be otherwise - for this is His essence).
@@MrHwaynefair Sure. We could start by telling me where the Bible teaches that all who bear His image are His children. I don't think this is in the Bible. I try my best to go "in the direction" of God's love. The most impt topic on earth and heaven. But love doesn't force, and it gives freedom, free will, and image-bearers are his creatures but it's necessary to be born (again, of His Spirit) to be an actual child of His. People get what they want--they want to be born again, His child, they get this. They want to turn away decisively forever, they get that. God, who is love, never gave up on them--they gave up on God. What would you say to that?
Rob - so delighted to get your response and your questions (and observations) offered in good faith! Your remark about what “the Bible teaches” opens up into many more questions that are deep and profound. There are things the Bible says explicitly - and then there are things the Bible strongly implies. A great example of this is “the Trinity”. One might argue that the Bible nowhere “teaches” anything explicitly called “Trinity” - but those of us who embrace historically “orthodox” Christianity affirm that the eternal Godhead is made up of three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I say that to frame what I will say here about how being made in God’s Image strongly (even inevitably) implies the relation of father to child - and how all of humanity bears this image which is now hidden within each of us - covered over and obscured by our sin and fallenness. There are several passages that (to me) converge to compel me to this belief (that all who bear God’s image are thereby His children) - i.e. that this is what “the Bible teaches”. I must confess my embarrassment that (not until my mid to late 60’s) I had never really seen or taken notice of Genesis 5:3, “When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.” Note that this is the first time the couplet “image” and “likeness” are used after the creation of Adam and Eve (Adam, notably, being himself called a “son of God” in Luke 3:38) For me it doesn’t take a lot of imagination to “see” the inner logic of how deeply related these concepts are - e.g. it lies behind the old saying, “he’s the spitting image of his father!” We find the same inner-logic with Jesus as THE Image of God - and Son of God - e.g., Col.1:15, “The SON is the IMAGE of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.” Son - Image - firstborn: they are entangled (I believe) in the mind of Paul. And (though some want to limit its implication) does not Paul clearly say that God is “the Father of all”? “one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” - Ephesians 4:6 Just before this (in chapter 3) Paul has stated, “14For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name.” But for me the “clincher” is Acts 17 (Paul’s sermon to the pagan Athenians has radically altered my theological perspective!) There Paul says explicitly and unequivocally that the unconverted pagans to whom he was speaking are God’s offspring/children: “‘For we also are His children.’”! He even repeats this twice (apparently for emphasis?)! The New American Standard (1995), Amplified, and International Standard all translate “children” - others “offspring” - but the meaning is inevitably the same. And then Paul immediately goes on to speak of “image”, and how even in their ignorance the pagans should know better than to think that God is “an image made by human design and skill”. I do not think that the stream of thought from which Paul speaks is merely coincidental - i.e. that speaking of their being “children” then of an “image” of God are unrelated. I hope that all of this taken together at least opens your mind and heart to see there just is (Biblically) a connection between being made in God’s Image and our being in some very real way God’s children/offspring? But there is something even deeper going on here: What is this Image? The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus Christ IS the express Image of God. So, for us to be made “IN the Image” of God means (to me) that we ALL bear the very imprint on our Being of Jesus Christ - we all bear (deep within) the very likeness of God’s Son! THIS is why we are so very precious to the Father! I think Paul alludes to this in his brief but profound remark: “15But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16to reveal his Son IN me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles” - Gal.1 Note here that Paul is saying (by logical implication) that Christ was hidden in him - I say “hidden” because that is inescapably what the word (translated here) “revealed” must mean: it is “apokalypsai” - which means to UN-cover what is covered or hidden! And don’t miss that Paul is speaking of his state BEFORE he is “born again”. You see, I believe that Christ is “entombed” in the very being of every human being - like a dormant seed awaiting the be “called forth” - like Lazarus from the tomb! So - I ask: is this what “the Bible teaches”? Or is this some perverse “twisting” of Scripture? Is this not the Truth beneath the story of “the prodigal son’? Is this story not universal in its application to ALL who are “lost” (the word literally means “destroyed”!)? And yet - no matter how far the willful son wanders from the Love of the Father, he is STILL a son - he cannot escape the very DNA of his being - of his father! But - finally - one day “he came to himself” - he awoke to his TRUE identity, and returned home to his Father! Finally - you say that “love doesn’t force”. Really? Think about it…. As a father of four (now adult) children - I OFTEN “forced” them to do things BECAUSE I loved them! But I did so with a view toward their maturity - that one day my purpose for them was to be responsible, mature adults who FREELY reflected the Love of their Father in heaven in thought, word and deed. And even if they had been young adults who had been seduced by the world (for example - if they had gotten addicted to meth) - would I just say, “Oh well - they made their choice…”? NO! I would do an intervention - again and again if needed… And if they decided to throw themselves into a burning building while under the influence of drugs - would I not stop them? Of course I would! The God who IS Love never, ever gives up on His children! “Love endures ALL things… Love NEVER fails…”. Will God get what He desires and wants - what He “wills”? Will “thy will be done” finally be answered? I have no doubt that - in the end - He will! Ane what is His will? “That none should perish” (2 Pet.3:9) but “that ALL should be saved” (1 Tim.2:4). God sent His Logos/Word into the world NOT “to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.” - John 3:17 WILL HIS WORD FAIL? “So shall My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.” Isaiah 55:11 I admit it - my heart screams “YES!” at the prospect that the ultimate ending of this “story” is [almost] “too good to be true”! But I cannot unsee what I now see so profoundly clear and plain in Scripture: The RESTORATION of ALL things - Acts 3:21 The RECAPITULATION of ALL things - Ephesians 1:10 The RECONCILATION of ALL things - Colossians 1:20 The RENEWAL of ALL things - Revelation 21:5 Yes! There IS a very real “Hell” - and I believe it is the manifestation of the God who is BOTH “a consuming fire” - and who IS LOVE. Through this fire of God’s LOVING judgment every child who bears His image will eventually (perhaps after a very long time for some) come to the place where their knees will WILLINGLY bow - and their tongues GLADLY confess, “Jesus IS Lord” - to the Glory of God THE FATHER! I certainly affirm our “free” moral agency - and that God is not a puppeteer! But there is NO scripture that teaches that “we turn away decisively” in such a way that places us outside the power of a Love that surpasses knowledge and imagination. Always remember Jesus response to the question: “Who then CAN be saved?”…. “With God ALL things are possible”! YES, we must be “born again”! But our first birth is what lays the groundwork of the second birth - our creation in His image (“fearfully and wonderfully made”!) plants in us that dormant “seed” - which must be “hydrated”, if you will, by the Holy Spirit to bring this hidden image alive into its intended goal: eternal life and fruitfulness - conformed to the image of THE Image: God’s Son! I BEG you to read this(link at the bottom of this "comment") : because to me there is no better illustration outside of Scripture that illustrates our plight - our true condition: we are not just morally neutral beings who randomly decide for or against God - No! We are God’s children who have (since Eden) been kidnapped - taken into a slavery to Satan through deception and blindness - taken captive to do HIS will - but our TRUE, created nature is deeper than our temporal “fallen” nature! May God Bless You Abundantly! wayne open.substack.com/pub/waynefair/p/is-free-will-a-myth?r=oev2h&
I love Steve Gregg, however it is dangerous to judge God's character by our standards..this is how we get away from truth...I fall on the side of anialation in Lake of Fire....trusting that the Lord gives everyone the proper time to repent...many chose the wide path...we part ways on salvation from hell....but its not essential to my walk...so I could change my view
I deeply appreciate your comment - even your "push back", refreshingly offered in love and good faith! Let me (very) briefly respond here - and assure you that I am here for you should you like to enter into further dialogue (even a one on one zoom chat should you be interested) [Please forgive typos and incomplete sentences - I wanted to get this off to you before going to church this morning!] There are two fundamental, foundational and inescapable Truths to this Biblical perspective (Historic Christian Universalism): FIRST - For me the most simple yet most revelatory statement in all of Scripture: God IS Love. Why are we so quick to add a qualifying "BUT" after these words? And, if God IS Love in God's very Triune essence, how can God AS Love be anything LESS than the Love that is described to be in 1 Cor.13? For example: Love is OTHER centered, "It seeks not its own" Love keeps NO record of wrongs (in agreement with 2 Cor.5, [God HAS reconciled the world] "not counting men's sins against them..." Love believes and hopes ALL things Love endures ALL things Love NEVER fails... SECOND - We ALL - everyone who bears His Image (see Gen5:3) - are His children! (Acts 17) That means we are ALL - even before and apart from repentance - still in relationship with our Father - we are just estranged - we are ALL prodigals... But what happens? "He came TO HIMSELF"...and returned home to his father! Where does Scripture tell us there is no repentance after death? Usually the passage is cited, "It is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgment" There are at least a few problems with concluding that this forecloses on "post mortem repentance": 1. It never says of implies that there can be NO repentance after death! 2. Even it's assertion cannot be taken as utterly "absolute" - e.g. we know that many died twice! (e.g. Lazarus and others Jesus raised from the dead) Furthermore - one should be open to consider that in Jonah's case - there was death in the belly of that fish - AND genuine repentance - then his "resurrection" to continue his prophetic mission to Nineveh. 3. Peter seems to at least open up possibilities - and I am not drawing dogmatic conclusions here - but offering observations that at the least imply the possibility that there have been those who have died - THEN heard the Gospel, and were saved! See 1 Peter 3:19 - then 4:6 You are correct - we cannot judge God's character by our standards. Where we see and recognize "Goodness" and "Love" - we should intuitively know that He is infinitely HIGHER - that He is MAXIMALLY Good - MAXIMALLY love! BUT - and this is very critical - can we NOT recognize what is good and right and loving? I think we allow ourselves to think that a thing can be "Good" for God when it obviously EVIL for us (at least for me it was the case as a Calvinist)... This is called "equivocation" - and means that words become meaningless... For example if I had 12 children and everyone observed how loving I was towards them - but what if I had a 13th child whom I had bound and tortured every night in my basement - for the rest of their lives? Who would not call that evil - and how would that not cast at the least a shadow across my character? Jesus said these remarkable words: "Judge for yourselves what is right!" And he said, "If you then being evil know how to give good gifts to your children - HOW MUCH MORE your heavenly Father!" Many passages (taken literally) promise that the Salvation Christ brings will be unilaterally Victorious! See especially Romans 5, 1 Cor. 15 (I will add a link below to many passages that point us in this direction) Scripture promises: The Restoration of ALL things (Acts 3) The Recapitulation of ALL things (Eph.1) The Reconciliation of ALL things (Col.1) The Renewal of ALL things (Rev. 21) Finally - what began to seriously open me to this historic and scriptural perspective was one word: Aionios - translated "eternal" in most translation (but not all!) Just consider this definition from BibleHub (NOT a Christian Universalist site!) "age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting." And "Olam" (also translated "eternal" in the OT): "long duration, antiquity, futurity" THIS SHOCKED AND ASTONISHED ME NEARLY 15 YEARS AGO! IT SHOULD GIVE EVERY BIBLE-BELIEVING CHRISTIAN PAUSE TO RE-THINK THE "DOCTRINE" OF "ETERNAL" PUNISHMENT! If you are open to chat - just let me know... Richest Blessing in Your Ministry! wayne waynefair.substack.com/p/scripture-proofs-of-gods-eternal-love
@MrHwaynefair OK...here we go. Yes all are reconciled to God because of Jesus...at our birth...then we sin..at that point we need to be born again.. This happens during ones life. # Though, in a sense, all are His children by creation...this is not truly relationship...we are only "adopted" into His family by faith...not by birth...we must listen to and obey Him to be His..."if any Love Me, they will obey me" I do not know if one can repent after they are judged and thrown into the Lake of Fire....it could be possible...but I wouldn't risk it, or tell others to... Even if they could be refined and saved from hell..they still suffer ..God does that... No, I don't think we can judge what is right when it comes to God...look at the book of Joshua...God tells them to kill everyone, even babies and livestock..."happy is the one who dashes infants on a rock" Psalm 137:9...This to us could never be right?!? The verse that you use for renewal and such of all things...this could include creatures, but I think it means heaven and earth...this will happen after they are all destroyed, with a fervent heat.... If all things do include Satan and demons, then I suppose they will be saved also?? Eternal can mean a very long time...the wors forever is similar...I belive it means 'past the vanishing point" which is beyond our ability to see how long. But it also means eternal.. As in the forever/eternal kingdom. And the fact that pur glorified bodies will be eternal...our very souls are eternal in Him. I do not believe ineternal punishment. I am a Anihilationist . But not because I think it just or right...but because it is biblical and historical...Edward Fudge ..the Fire that Consumes..though I do believe it is just. This is not an essential doctrine.. So I an not stuck on it. The bottom line is that some do not want to be reconciled.. no matter how long the punishment, read The Great Divorce by CS Lewis..its a great take
Sorry - not sure what verbiage you are referring to? Maybe? "10to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment-to bring *UNITY* to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ." ἀνακεφαλαιώσασθαι (anakephalaiōsasthai) Verb - Aorist Infinitive Middle Strong's 346: To sum up, summarize, *recapitulate* , gather up in one. From ana and kephalaioo; to sum up.
Thanks for you "comment" - But please realize that anyone can quote passages to shore up their "side" of this issue... The question remains, "Who do YOU say that I am?" Is the God who IS Love going to eventually hate HIS enemies - when He has commanded us to love ours? Don't get me wrong - I believe in a hell after death for many. But is it the "final word"? I don't think so - and there are MANY passages that give me this hope... Blessings in Christ! th-cam.com/video/lsUYBZyuJPE/w-d-xo.html
*"Are the Claims of Christian Universalism Possibly ... True?"* Not to put too sharp a point on it but...no, there is no possible way that they are true.
"No possible way"? How are you SO sure? Many great theologians have disagreed with you (e.g., Gregory of Nyssa being one) The Bible tells us otherwise - and gives us the great hope that not only does God desire that all be saved - but that His Word (Jesus Christ) will not return to Him void - and he did NOT come to condemn the world - but that the world will be saved through Him. Do these passages (for instance) give you NO pause? 1. whom heaven must keep until the time for the [complete] restoration of all things about which God promised through the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. - Acts 3:21 2. to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment-to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. - Eph.1:10 3. and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. - Col.1:20 4. Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.” - Rev.21:5
Throughout the video Steve quotes from scripture - he just doesn't mention chapter and verse... e.g. 00:57 seconds in "God is not willing that any should perish", etc. If you are not open to the possibility that God genuinely wants all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth - your probably wasting your time here (on this channel) - Otherwise please stay and spend some time exploring... Bessings!
The Bible was all over his message. This message is the true message of Christ who did everything for us. Your faith is very much need in the world we live in, but it does not save your soul. Only Christ can do that.
So pleased to see someone as humble and clear thinking as Steve Gregg coming to this core truth 🙌
Completely agree- thanks Joel!
Amen !...PRAISE GOD !
Once you see the truth, it's hard to not see it. The truth shall set you free. Love wins.
As in Adam ALL die, so as in Christ ALL will be made alive.
Amen !
Amen!
@MrHwaynefair God will be victorious in saving all of mankind from permanent death. His will, will be done.
Lamentations 3:31 for no one is cast off by God forever.
Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Romans 5:18 therfore just as one man's trespass led to condemnation for ALL, so also is one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for ALL men.
1Corinthians 15:32 for as in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ ALL will be made alive.
God bless.
Honestly, there is no disputing the universal implications of that passage.
But wait, the whole reason I go to church is so that I can be scolded and feel miserable and know that I’m just not good enough. This ruins everything.
Thank you Steve, so much. Of course, you are right and the Gospel is far far brighter than we were led to believe. Beyond all the pain, "fire" and judgements, He will be "All in all" and His Love, will truly "win".
Amen...God is Good not a tyrant
its the most optimistic view ever, everything else pales in comparison.
I think that was an extremely fair presentation from someone who doesn’t wholeheartedly embrace what I call “biblical universalism”. I can remember when I was rethinking my position of ECT, I bought Edward Fudge's book called “The Fire That Consumes”. In the book, Mr Fudge dismisses ECT whilst making a biblical case for conditional immortality. Yet, it was a small quote he made in that book that brought my attention to “biblical universalism”. Quote from Mr Fudge as follows:-
Quote // This evangelical universalism cannot be so easily dismissed, for it affirms the awfulness of sin, the requirement of atonement, the uniqueness of Jesus Christ, the reality of final judgment and the necessity of hell // end quote.
It was Mr Fudge's quote that led me to further explore this “universalism” and thankfully It’s now a position that I wholeheartedly embrace. I think what I’m trying to say is this, there are some great minds out there with a wealth of biblical knowledge, even though they don’t necessarily embrace universalism, they are at least gracious enough to understand that a biblical case can be made in its defence. There are many good scriptural presentations out there in favour of universalism, but for me it simply boils down to the following:-
Psalm 115 :3:- Our God is in heaven and does whatever he [wills/ḥāp̄ēṣ]
Lexicon:- Strong's H2654 - ḥāp̄ēṣ :-
Outline of Biblical Usage:- To delight in, take pleasure in, desire, be pleased with etc ….
1 Tim 2:4:- who [wills/thelō] all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth.
Lexicon:- Strong's G2309 - thelō:-
Outline of Biblical Usage:- To will, have in mind, intend, to be resolved or determined, to purpose, to desire, to wish, to love, to like to do a thing, be fond of doing, to take delight in, have pleasure etc ….
The word thelō is in verb form, and it doesn’t lend itself to some form of wishful thinking, it speaks of action and purpose [ie] God intends to save "all" men, or purposes for "all" men to be saved.
If it's true that God achieves “all” he wills/desires, and God wills/desires “all” to be saved, then the saving of “all” is what must surely happen.
Peace
Very well said!
Thanks for your comment- It really is as “simple” as that!
Robin Parry has also been influenced and encouraged along the way after he had read 'The Fire That Consumes '
@@TheHumbuckerboy I didn’t know that. Thanks for the interesting info.
Peace
Unfortunately, as you well know, I’m sure, from personal experience, taking that view will require you to allegorize much of the scripture that was never intended as allegory.
@@BuildingHisHousesuch as?
Wow! Praise God for you steve gregg! And thank you wayne for sharing this wonderful teaching! ❤️
Thanks Nelson- always appreciate your encouragement!
I was raised Evangelical Pentecostal and became Roman Catholic as a teenager and remained a faithful Catholic until 4 years ago. Bishop Carlton Pearson’s move towards Unitarian Universalist theology shook me to a new reality of faith! Your teaching has solidified my Universalist belief! Thank you!
Thanks for your comment ❤️
I do believe that Rev. Pearson's journey away from the traditional view of hell was an honest realization that such a perspective is incompatible the simple truth that "God IS Love".
But - to be very clear and honest - I would not call myself (simply) "Unitarian" - and certainly not "Unitarian Universalist" (instead I prefer "Historic Christian Universalism").
Why? Because the latter deny a belief in the Triune nature of God - and (I think consistently) deny any real doctrine of "hell". I thoughtfully embrace these two realities - while admitting that none of us have a firm grasp on what these "doctrines" gesture towards.
Our God is a consuming fire of Love - and this Love can bring us into painful disciplines and chastisements for our purification - both now and in the "afterlife". And this God exists eternally in a "dance" (perichoresis) of Trinitarian Love - out of which overflowed God's Love in creating "all things" - the, after the fall, restoring, reuniting and reconciling "all things". My greatest problem with "Unitarianism" is the denial of the eternal preexistence of Christ - the eternal Logos (John 1) - very God of very God, eternally "proceeding from the Father" - and, in His incarnation, fully God and fully man....
God Bless you as you continue your journey into the heart of God's Love!
-wayne
Makes sense mate.i was one that once believed in eternal conscious torment .God is Love and Truth.john 8.32 . Shane from Australia
Thanks Shane! On this side of things it’s hard to believe now what we thought we just “had” to believe then…
Blessings!
wayne
Let's pray for him, seriously as he is so close to breaking away from the bad news! Most of the religious system's blinders are off him, it seems.
Thanks John- totally agreed!
I'd say he's already broken away from the bad news. I don't see any evidence that he's even close to any sort of bad news.
Was he formerly a fundamentalist or something?
@@jasonegeland1446 Well- to be fair, in the full video (link in show notes) and book he (sorta) presents the 3 main views equally… but I think he saved Christian Universalism for last for a reason….
Also not sure he was ever what I’d call a fundamentalist…. but maybe?
Thanks for your comments!
@@MrHwaynefair Interesting. I need to watch more of his content.
Thanks for the feedback! You have a great channel!
@@MrHwaynefair Steve has been a hardcore fundamentalist, believing for example in eternal conscious torment for most of his life. He`s come a long way though!
I suspect watching some of his children waver from the faith has been very troubling to him. He WANTS Christian Universalism to be true and that shows his softened heart. He`s a deeply compassionate man.
I doubt he`ll ever be able to move away from his current neutrality on the matter though. He would have to semi-abandon his ingrained sola scriptura approach I think
The traditional view of hell in how we Christians deal with daily life around a heavily disbelieving world is so philosophically troubling to our empathy that we have to live with a bit of cognitive dissonance to manage getting through a day and live life with any sense of wellbeing. Otherwise our lives would be consumed with an overwhelming and constant despair over the list who surround us in every possible activity we engage in and even in our most intimate relationships. It creates a defense mechanism of avoidance of the issue we have as a central doctrine (traditional view of hell) of our faith.
This is one of the best summaries of universal reconciliation I’ve found. Regarding the free will objection, What parent would not put impassable boundaries upon their child’s exercise of free will?
Paul said his first Corinthians 3:11 through 15 about what you were talking about about the refinement process, that when the wood hay and stubble the drose of your life has been burned away, but in the end you will be saved as through fire, like someone escaping from a burning House,
Thanks for posting this. I used to catch bits of Steve Gregg's radio show while driving. I came from New Age teachings & practices unto the Bible and Jesus Christ, but I never believed in 'hell'. I searched for a church or fellowship to be part of reading all their "What We Believe" statements hoping to find one that did not teach eternal punishment; could not find one. I'm so excited to see him pondering this.
Thanks so much for your comment! It is a deeply ingrained belief - but I do believe that God is using people like Gregg to begin to crack open the door to other Biblical possibilities. I was raised by a dear father who was a "Southern Baptist" pastor - and never hesitated to preach "hellfire and brimstone" to a "lukewarm" church. But it just never sat well with me - and 40+ years later I came to "see" what (at least to me) is SO obvious in Scripture: God's everlasting Love for ALL - and His "hellbent" determination to see all who bear His Image transformed into the Image of His Son, Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ!
Richest Blessings!
wayne
@@MrHwaynefair Thank you! I agree that Gregg would be a blessing. He'd help open up many others, who would in turn, help open up many others. I am new to your site and will listen to more. After this one earlier today, I also listened to: Why I Left Calvinism...". I appreciate your good point about in every age, God has always used an "Elect" Thanks again :)
@@ALL2BWell Thanks for this comment and your positive feedback.
I think it was Lewis that said of poets that, "they say more than they say"... Your re-statement of something you heard me "say" brought a new insight to mind - or at least something I do not think I've had "occur" to me:
Paul never calls (at least explicitly) the Gentiles themselves "elect" - i.e. those who benefit from the "elect" (also called the "remnant" and "firstfruits" of Israel - i.e. the Jewish believers).
I am working on a second video presentation looking specifically at the idea/meaning of "firstfruits" - and how this (I intuit) illuminates the somewhat thorny issue of "election" - and gestures toward the truth that "election" is not for exclusive salvation - but to bring salvation to others...
Thanks for this!
Same here we have been kicked out of church for our beliefs in the love of God for all men
The bible teaches that the Gospel was preached to those dead from before the flood, which suggests that people possibly can recieve the gospel after life.
Thanks for you comment!
Yes - and it's interesting that once Peter opened up that possibility - he goes on to say in the very next chapter:
"For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does." - 1 Peter 4:6
Personally, I am totally convinced that there is NO "proof" from Scripture against post-mortem repentance.
Blessings❤️
wayne
I would check out Edward fudge who presents the annihilationist position
Fudge is good - the movie about his life was really well done (too)...
I see him as a gateway towards Historic Christian Universalism ❤️
(as, in some ways, John Stott was for me as a former-Calvinist)
Great talk. The lake of fire is a cleansing, refining fire. Everlasting is the word eonian or age enduring. So punishment is not everlasting but only for the time it takes to purify a person. When you stand before God you will see yourself as you really are. God refines us now in the fire of tribulation and trials. Jesus is the savior of all men, and especially those who believe.
Thanks for your encouragement and comment!
If your interested in "connecting" either with me or with our bi-weekly meet-up group (via Zoom) - please reach out to me at: hwaynefair [at] yahoo [dot] com.
Blessings In Christ to you and yours!
-wayne
Amen sister. That is truly good news. Look at Romans 5:18&19 too.
Not just in Colossians, Peter said it in Acts 3:21, and Paul made it abundantly clear in 2nd Corinthians 5:18 and following, that God was in Christ reconciling the world the cosmos to himself not counting our trespasses against us.
I totally agree with a lot of Steve's points particularly about putting an end to sin but also about God's character which is paramount and also about Justice prevailing which I think is resulted by the annihilationist position. Certainly the traditional view lacks in every single area
Justice prevailing - or Love prevailing?
Are they separated within the Being of God - does one have primacy over the other ("God IS Love")?
Love endures all things - love never fails - Love keeps no record of wrongs...
There is a destruction that leads to life, "Destroy this temple - and I will raise it again in three days..."
Thanks for you comments! Even if we may disagree - I welcome anything offered "in good faith"!
12 New Testament Texts: HELL Is ETERNAL
The different ways ETERNITY in hell is stated:
• everlasting fire
• everlasting punishment
• eternal condemnation
• the fire that shall never be quenched
• their worm does not die
• unquenchable fire
• eternal destruction
• eternal judgment
• blackness of darkness reserved forever
• tormented with fire…forever and ever
Matthew 10:28
Matthew 18:8-9
Matthew 25:41
Matthew 25:46
Mark 3:29
Mark 9:43-48
Luke 3:17
2 Thessalonians 1:5-10
Hebrews 6:1-2
2 Peter 2:1-2, 10-22
Jude v.7
Revelation 14:9-12
I ask sincerely: Are you here (on this channel) to "prove" you are right - or are you willing to enter into a "good faith" dialog?
Steve Gregg is (I am sure) very aware of your objections - and in the full video (of which mine is only an excerpt) he presents each perspective (there are at least 3: Eternal Conscious Torment, Annihilationism and Historic Christian Universalism) very evenly and fairly. He sees what I think that maybe you do not see[?]: there are Scriptural "proof texts" for each view - the question is where will you "land" - which texts will reign supreme over interpreting the other passages that seem to run in a different direction.
One thing (for instance) that it appears you may not have deeply considered is the meaning of "aionios" in (for example) Matthew 25:46 - it is *mistranslated* as simply "eternal" NOT because it cannot mean "eternal" - but because the very word is full of ambiguity and therefore should NEVER be "simply" translated "eternal" - this has mislead countless millions... The Greek word is based on the root word "aion" - which means an "age" (eon").
For example BibleHub says it "usage" is:
"age-long, and therefore: practically [?!] eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which *lasts for an age* , as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting."
Speaking of "severity" - I have often noted this passage - it is NOT to be ignored (I fully agree with you here). But it is NOT the severity of God that Paul says surpasses all knowledge - it is the LOVE of Christ - out of which flow a power beyond imagination (Eph.3:19-20). In effect Paul is saying (at least implicitly) this is not something I can put into words - it is something you must have a direct revelation of....
Jesus does speak much of hell - *AND I BELEIVE THAT IT IS REAL AND TO BE AVOIDED AT ALL COSTS* - I just do NOT believe it is eternal in duration OR merely retributive in nature. As someone has noted:
"there are 1900 plus verses in the four Gospels that contain Jesus’ words. Surprisingly, only about 60 of those verses, or just 3% of them, might be construed as either directly or indirectly referring to Hell. On the other hand, there are more than three times as many verses in the Gospels in which Jesus references Heaven, eternal life, or his coming kingdom: 192 verses in all, or almost 10%."
Regarding different levels of hell - thank you for the citations! I fully agree there are different levels - but please consider this: does this not also imply that this punishment is *finite and limited* - i.e. "few" and "many" stripes seem to speak of a measured and equitable justice - perfectly fitting to the person being punished - and NOT going on forever (which would make "few" and "many" meaningless)?
You say that holiness is the greatest of God's attributes? How can you say that so dogmatically? Scripture never says that - that is your interpretation of (I guess) the fact that the angels exclaim, "Holy, Holy, Holy!". But Scripture NEVER says "God IS holiness" - but it DOES say, "God IS Love". I take that as a statement of "essence" - not "attributes". In my (limited and faulty) understanding - ALL of God's attributes flow out of His essence - therefore *God is not opposed to Himself* - i.e., His judgments must be a reflection of (and not divorced from) His essence: Love.
Consider this when it comes to His Holiness: The thrice-Holy God enters into Eden and interacts directly with His fallen offspring - He doesn't just send in some avenging angels and have done with them! He even preaches the GOOD News to them that a Savior will come someday and crush the head of Satan...
Holiness does NOT mean He is simply wrathful and hateful towards sinners... We see in Christ the full revelation of God: he was a friend of sinners! And TRUE friendship even means "wounding" your friend ("faithful are the wounds of a friend")
Also please consider this remarkable passage when it comes to understanding God's Holiness:
"I will not carry out my fierce anger, nor will I devastate Ephraim again. For I am God, and not a man- *the Holy One* among you. I will not come against their cities." - Hos.11:9
Finally - Don't merely look at your proof texts - Look wide-eyed at those that are in tension with your current perspective... You must wrestle with these passages that stand in tension with your current emphasis on God's severity and "eternal hell":
1. The restoration of ALL things - Acts 3:20-21
2. The recapitulation (unifications) of ALL things - Eph.1:10
3. The reconciliation of ALL things - Col.1:20
4. The renewal of ALL things - Rev.21:5
I could cite several other verses that point us to this great and ultimate Hope - the total Victory of Christ over Satan and sin - What I believe to be the unconditional Good News (a "blunt indicative" - not just an invitation or a possibility/provision - but the certainty that Christ WILL subdue ALL things - and it will be finally said that God will be "all in all" 1 Cor.15:28)
If you want to dialog about this I welcome it - otherwise I have demands on my time that will not allow me to enter into a war of words -
Blessing in Our Sovereign Lord!
wayne
P.S. Here are other passages that speak of (or at least allude to) the Hope of Universal Reconciliation:
sovereign-love.blog/2023/11/12/scripture-proofs-of-gods-eternal-love-%e2%9d%a4%ef%b8%8f/
I read somewhere that even that favourite writer of so many Christians, CS Lewis, believed in post-mortem salvation.
Yes he apparently did (in The Great Divorce) - perhaps under the influence of his “master” (as he called him) George MacDonald, a Christian Universalist…
4:13 I respect the gravity of this conversation and respect both sides of the discussion, but one of the most dangerous starting points for anyone seeking any sort of truth is that of their own understanding. It is treacherous business to ask the question “Is that the kind of God I would want to serve?” Instead, we ought to ask, “What can we understand about God?” “Who is he?” Most certainly not, “Who do I want him to be?” I’m sorry to say anyone who claims the Bible is “silent” on repentance after death is either lying to twist scripture to their own understanding or simply grossly ignorant of scripture. I say this because of the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Jesus himself clearly illustrates the reality that death is the final deterministic aspect of each individual’s eternal fate. This isn’t the result of God’s desires-it is true that God wishes that all were saved (John 3:16)- but a reflection of God’s holy, righteous essence and our choice to either cleave to our own self-rule in depravity or submit to God’s lordship through acceptance of Jesus’s sacrifice and covering of our wretched, sinful lives in his precious cleansing blood. Who will you believe, Jesus, himself, or this man?
Thanks for your comment, Jonathan. "Post mortem repentance" is a very critical - even necessary tenet of Historic Christian Universalism.
To cut to the chase - I cannot agree that the story of the rich man and Lazarus offers a final, clear or definitive teaching on the matter - or that it was the purpose of the parable at all to answer this question... Even in that passage one must take note of how (at least to SOME degree) the rich man had changed his mind ("repented" - though not fully or perfectly). The "no one can cross" chasm is another matter - but it does not foreclose what the God of the (apparently) "impossible" can and will do... or what this same God PROMISES to do on behalf of "ALL people" (e.g. He "IS the Savior of ALL mankind" 1 Tim. 4:12)
(see Jesus teachings on the obviously "impossible" salvation of the rich - as likely as a camel passing through the eye of a needle... to which the disciples asked in astonishment, "Who then CAN be saved?". Then Jesus says these remarkable words, "With God ALL things are possible!")
You must admit this: that this parable teaches 'NO repentance after death" is NOT what the passage "says" - that is how you are interpreting it. AND, we must ALL do such interpreting - including me... But are we right?
That parable (of the Rich man and Lazarus) is simply NOT the only verse of Scripture that touches on that specific question (of repentance after death) - there are others that MUST be considered.....
For instance - consider Jonah: It could be strongly argued that he indeed died inside that enormous fish - His very prayer seems to indicate that: "Out of the belly of Sheol I cried" and "I went down to the moorings of the mountains; the earth with its bars closed behind me forever; Yet You have brought up my life from the pit, O Lord, my God." That Jonah actually died there also make the analogy Jesus draws from it far more fitting and compelling (e.g. "the sign of Jonah).
(in passing, It's also interesting to note that Jonah uses the word "olam" to note that the duration of his "visit" to Sheol was "forever" - alerting us to the fact that that Hebrew word - like its counterpart in the Greek NT, "aion" - does NOT demand translating it "eternal" - for neither of these words literally means "eternal" - but a long period of time...)
Then there are passages from 1Peter that seems to - even if vaguely - open up possibilities beyond the grave, including the repentance of the dead....
1 Peter 3:18-19
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, d he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits..."
Then 4:6 "For this is WHY the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does."
This is not unlike what Paul says about another "judgment by fire" (and while it may contextually speak of the judgment of apostolic works - may it not be instructive about the purpose and result of God's judgments?):
" 12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved-even though only as one escaping through the flames."
Or even this verse: "5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord." 1 Cor.5:5
Do these verses prove anything with great finality or clarity? No - but they at the very least SHOULD open us up to the possibilities of the God of the "impossible"..
Also, you say "death is the final deterministic aspect of each individual’s eternal fate" - and I would say, "No! GOD in Christ is the First and Last Word on ALL things..." It is HE who "takes away the sin of the world"... HE who said, "when I am lifted up I will draw ALL men to myself" - It is HE who is the Great Shepard that declares He will leave not ONE lost sheep behind. He IS "the Savior of the world" - the entire Cosmos which He created and sustains - and of which He promises that He will finally - in the end - bring about "the reconciliation of ALL things" (Col.1)
My fundamental belief as a Christian Universalist is simply this: God IS [Agape] Love. And this Love - revealed above all in Christ - is described as the unrelenting love of 1 Cor.13: It endures ALL things - It NEVER gives up...
And this God who is the Father of all (Acts 17:28) treasures ALL who bear His Image - i.e. who ARE His children (see. Gen.5:3)
The Love of which I speak here cannot be contain or comprehended - it surpasses ALL knowledge - and its power exceeds ALL imagination! (Eph.3:19-20)
Finally - I agree that we do not base our understanding of Truth on "who do I WANT God to be"... But there is something even here from Scripture that seems to say we DO have certain moral intuitions about what is truly GOOD... "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven..."(Matt.7:11 and Luke 11:13) The very fact that we KNOW that any human father who punishes (torments!) their children (let alone their enemies) without ceasing is just not "right" should at least give us pause when we are told that GOD will do just that to everyone who dies without hearing or believing "the GOOD News"?! Even Jesus dares to say, "Judge for yourselves what is right..."
It is the image of God - the inner man - that gives us ALL some true sense of what is "right" - what is "good"... And I think Scripture gives us very good reason to believe that the God and Father of ALL would never do such a thing - that, like child sacrifice - it would NEVER even enter His mind (see Jer.19:5 and 32:35)
So I would beg you to consider these and many other verses that have a say in this conversation - in answering the question of "post mortem repentance" ...
Whatever else Scripture may say (and however we wind up interpreting it) He has promised to restore (Acts 3:21), reunite (Eph.1:10), reconcile (Col.1:20) and renew (Rev.21:5) *ALL* things - and I (for one) do not know how He will do this apart from "post mortem repentance"...
Richest Blessings In Him, Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ!
-wayne
Good work
I have always been amused at the doctrine of such as Arminianism and Calvinism, and their exclusiveness and atempt to disparage the love and mercy of God. Its completely mind boggling, I mean I just don't get them.
Sure there is a few snippets to support such a theological stance of an exclusive Gospel.
But as a Lawyer, if I am to decide on scriptural evidence alone, Universal Salvation wins handsdown😊
The following I find clarifies such a finding in relation to an all inclusive Gospel of good news
Lamentations 3:31-33
For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love. For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to anyone.
1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
1 Corinthians 15:22For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.” (Rom. 5:18)
Jesus is “able even to subdue all things to Himself.” (Phil. 3:21)
Jesus came “that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will.” (Eph. 1:10, 11)
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9)
All shall know the Lord, from the least of them to the greatest of them.” (Heb. 8:11)
Mercy shall triumph over judgment.” (James 2:13)
Every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever.” (Rev. 5:13)
Through the greatness of your power your enemies shall submit themselves to you. all the earth shall worship You and sing praises to you.” (Ps. 66:3, 4)
For I will not contend forever, Nor will I always be angry; For the spirit would fail before Me, And the souls which I have made.” (Isaiah 57:16)
There is no God besides Me, a just God and Savior; there is none besides Me. Look to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath. He shall say, surely in the Lord I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, and all shall be ashamed who are incensed against Him. In the Lord all the descendants of Israel shall be justifed and shall glory.” (Isaiah 45:21-25)
In this mountain the Lord of Hosts will make for all people a feast of choice pieces, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of well-refined wines on the lees. And he shall destroy on this mountain the surface of the covering cast over all nations. He will swallow up death forever, and the Lord will wipe away tears from all faces.” (Isaiah 25:6-8)
Of those who crucified Him (which is all of us) Jesus declared: “Father forgive them; for they know not what they do.” (Luke 23:34)
But God would not take away a life; He would devise plans so that the one banished from Him does not remain banished.” 2 Sam. 14:14
Jesus says: “I pass judgment on no one.” [John 8:15]
4But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth. Titus3: 3-6
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. Romans 11:32
Thanks for your encouragement and the powerful passages that clearly speak of this truly GOOD News! (BTW - I am compiling a list that I will add these verses to [if not already there]
sovereign-love.blog/2023/11/12/scripture-proofs-of-gods-eternal-love-%e2%9d%a4%ef%b8%8f/
)
I am increasingly amazed at the number of attorneys that are showing up on the side of Universal Reconciliation - in fact we have several who are part of a "meetup" group we have that has been meeting on a bi-weekly basis (via Zoom). If your either interested in "connecting" either with me or with our group - please reach out to me at: hwaynefair [at] yahoo [dot] com.
Blessings In Christ to you and yours!
-wayne
It all comes down to who and what you think God is. Christ is the expressed image of who God is. See that, and all falls into place. He showed us who He is.
This is so well articulated!
Indeed! Thanks, Robert!
If you happen to be interested in a regular zoom meetup with fellow-Christians who are moving towards embracing this Hope, please reach out to me at hwaynefair [at] yahoo [dot] com
Thanks and Blessings!
wayne
Gad is greater than our hearts & knows all things1 Jn 3:20
I was just warned by a older pastor that the exegisis of scripture and especially ephesians 1, in a non calvinist view leads to universlism. Well... here you go.
Can you clarify your point? Are you saying that only a Calvinist interpretation of Eph. 1 is correct?
@@MrHwaynefair I just did a almost 2 hour you tube video speaking with a none Calvinist regarding the myths surrounding Reformed theology. It was very interesting. He wanted to speak on Ephesians 1 but we ran out of time. We will do it in a couple months.
He has a difficult time with Calvinism since he only sees the loving side of God and also told me near the end that he does not believe there is a hell like the Bible describes.
I believe Calvinists have the proper understanding of Ephesians 1. That is why I believe the doctrines of Reformed theology are correct. Interestingly during the discussion I had, he also did not really like John Piper being so sure of his beliefs on many of these issues. I think that is one of the things we are accused of when we are told we are arrogant to say what we believe.
i just read Romans 2 this morning for my devotions. Gods wrath is described very clearly by Paul.
As I study more and more I see that the objections are real and brought up by real people. They are not just ideas but people really struggle. By Gods grace, I hope to be someone who can help to speak truth to these things.
It is refreshing to get comments and feedback from a Calvinist that are peaceable and offered in good faith. I was a Calvinist for 15 years (went to Reformed Theological Seminary - studied under R.C. Sproul and J.I. Packer, etc. - pastored a PCA church for 9 years) - and I have come to the conviction (over many years) that the Calvinist have it right - but only half right.
I maintain two fundamental theological convictions: God is absolutely Sovereign - and God IS Love.
I will not collapse or compromise one into the other - and this (along with many [especially] Pauline texts) leads me inexorably to the belief that God will bring about the reconciliation of "all things" - i.e. all that was created - in, for and through Jesus Christ (Colossians 1).
I believe in election - but that election is always ultimately for "the rest" (as I think a faithful reading of Romans 9-11 bears out) - and not exclusively for the salvation of "the elect". This was true of Abraham, Israel, the 12 disciples, etc. The meaning of "firstfruits" is critically important here (as in Romans 11:16)
If you are interested please see my recent video, "Why I Left Calvinism"...
*I would love to know what channel your recent 2 hour video is on?*
Thanks and May God Bless You Richly!
wayne
@@davevandervelde4799Please read 1 Corinthians 15. Here is where Paul lays out his eschatology.
Way to go, Steve!
I cannot imagine loving to be in the presence of a sadistic torturer.
I am convinced God for whom time is no boundary can persuade in moment that which a person was Incapable of receiving until that moment. As for universal salvation? I won't be upset that No One At All! is going to be tortured & without hope.
For those who cannot bring yourself to believe that God will eventually reconcile all Creation unto himself, I have a couple of thoughts.
One, if you really dive into the teaching of the early Church fathers, you will find that it was a belief that was taught by many, and at least considered possible by most others.
Two, you don't have to teach it to believe it in your heart - Why wouldn't you want to hold out the possibility that God will ultimately save all his creation.
Three, people who believe in ultimate Christian restoration, believe that salvation is accomplished by Jesus' death on the cross and may require some "age of correction" to bring all to restoration.
Thanks, Ronnie - completely agree! Really appreciate your comments!
Blessings In Our Lord and Savior!
wayne
Different Levels of Punishment in Hell: Hell HEAVY to Hell LIGHT - “That servant who knew his lord’s will and didn’t prepare, nor did what he wanted, will be beaten with many stripes, but he who didn’t know, and did things worthy of stripes, will be beaten with few stripes,” and even lighter than that?
Different Levels of Punishment in Hell - 7 New Testament Statements
Matthew 10:14-15, 11:20-24
Matthew 23:13
Luke 12:42-48
Hebrews 10:26-31
2 Peter 2:1-2, 10-22
James 3:1
Revelation 20:11-15
I ask sincerely: Are you here (on this channel) to "prove" you are right - or are you willing to enter into a "good faith" dialog?
Steve Gregg is (I am sure) very aware of your objections - and in the full video (of which mine is only an excerpt) he presents each perspective (there are at least 3: Eternal Conscious Torment, Annihilationism and Historic Christian Universalism) very evenly and fairly. He sees what I think that maybe you do not see[?]: there are Scriptural "proof texts" for each view - the question is where will you "land" - which texts will reign supreme over interpreting the other passages that seem to run in a different direction.
One thing (for instance) that it appears you may not have deeply considered is the meaning of "aionios" in (for example) Matthew 25:46 - it is *mistranslated* as simply "eternal" NOT because it cannot mean "eternal" - but because the very word is full of ambiguity and therefore should NEVER be "simply" translated "eternal" - this has mislead countless millions... The Greek word is based on the root word "aion" - which means an "age" (eon").
For example BibleHub says it "usage" is:
"age-long, and therefore: practically [?!] eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which *lasts for an age* , as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting."
Speaking of "severity" - I have often noted this passage - it is NOT to be ignored (I fully agree with you here). But it is NOT the severity of God that Paul says surpasses all knowledge - it is the LOVE of Christ - out of which flow a power beyond imagination (Eph.3:19-20). In effect Paul is saying (at least implicitly) this is not something I can put into words - it is something you must have a direct revelation of....
Jesus does speak much of hell - *AND I BELEIVE THAT IT IS REAL AND TO BE AVOIDED AT ALL COSTS* - I just do NOT believe it is eternal in duration OR merely retributive in nature. As someone has noted:
"there are 1900 plus verses in the four Gospels that contain Jesus’ words. Surprisingly, only about 60 of those verses, or just 3% of them, might be construed as either directly or indirectly referring to Hell. On the other hand, there are more than three times as many verses in the Gospels in which Jesus references Heaven, eternal life, or his coming kingdom: 192 verses in all, or almost 10%."
Regarding different levels of hell - thank you for the citations! I fully agree there are different levels - but please consider this: does this not also imply that this punishment is *finite and limited* - i.e. "few" and "many" stripes seem to speak of a measured and equitable justice - perfectly fitting to the person being punished - and NOT going on forever (which would make "few" and "many" meaningless)?
You say that holiness is the greatest of God's attributes? How can you say that so dogmatically? Scripture never says that - that is your interpretation of (I guess) the fact that the angels exclaim, "Holy, Holy, Holy!". But Scripture NEVER says "God IS holiness" - but it DOES say, "God IS Love". I take that as a statement of "essence" - not "attributes". In my (limited and faulty) understanding - ALL of God's attributes flow out of His essence - therefore *God is not opposed to Himself* - i.e., His judgments must be a reflection of (and not divorced from) His essence: Love.
Consider this when it comes to His Holiness: The thrice-Holy God enters into Eden and interacts directly with His fallen offspring - He doesn't just send in some avenging angels and have done with them! He even preaches the GOOD News to them that a Savior will come someday and crush the head of Satan...
Holiness does NOT mean He is simply wrathful and hateful towards sinners... We see in Christ the full revelation of God: he was a friend of sinners! And TRUE friendship even means "wounding" your friend ("faithful are the wounds of a friend")
Also please consider this remarkable passage when it comes to understanding God's Holiness:
"I will not carry out my fierce anger, nor will I devastate Ephraim again. For I am God, and not a man- *the Holy One* among you. I will not come against their cities." - Hos.11:9
Finally - Don't merely look at your proof texts - Look wide-eyed at those that are in tension with your current perspective... You must wrestle with these passages that stand in tension with your current emphasis on God's severity and "eternal hell":
1. The restoration of ALL things - Acts 3:20-21
2. The recapitulation (unifications) of ALL things - Eph.1:10
3. The reconciliation of ALL things - Col.1:20
4. The renewal of ALL things - Rev.21:5
I could cite several other verses that point us to this great and ultimate Hope - the total Victory of Christ over Satan and sin - What I believe to be the unconditional Good News (a "blunt indicative" - not just an invitation or a possibility/provision - but the certainty that Christ WILL subdue ALL things - and it will be finally said that God will be "all in all" 1 Cor.15:28)
If you want to dialog about this I welcome it - otherwise I have demands on my time that will not allow me to enter into a war of words -
Blessing in Our Sovereign Lord!
wayne
P.S. Here are other passages that speak of (or at least allude to) the Hope of Universal Reconciliation:
sovereign-love.blog/2023/11/12/scripture-proofs-of-gods-eternal-love-%e2%9d%a4%ef%b8%8f/
Let me try this comment again it got cut off, you said the Bible doesn't come right out and say that there's hope after the grave, but it sure does allude to it in several places, here's just one, in 1 Corinthians 15:19 Paul said, if in this life only we have hope in Christ we are of all men most miserable.!
13:35. I get the point but maybe because the few ones that do accept his sacrifice are so treasured and valuable compared to the ones who reject him...
But did the father of the prodigal treasure and value the "faithful" son more than the returning prodigal? The contention of Christian Universalism is that ALL will ultimately "accept his sacrifice": every knee will bow - and every tongue confess that Jesus IS Lord❤️ And that not one lost sheep will be left behind...
There is, no doubt, a place of special honor ("crowns") for those who accept him first - and who faithfully serve him. But then there is the troubling parable of those who worked only a little time (compared to others) but received the same wage... God's love for the sinner and the ungodly (see Romans 5) are certainly amazing and baffling!
As a father of four, I could not ultimately love my less compliant children less than the more compliant...
Thanks for your thoughts and comment!
@@MrHwaynefair he was only valued after he came back tho. Also we shouldn't use our subjective human view of love to compare to Gods ultimate knowledge and love.
Agreed - but God's Love SURPASSES our conceptions - especially as Love is described in 1 Cor.13... Love keeps no record of wrongs... love endures all things.... Love never fails❤️
As Paul says in Ephesians - The Love of Christ SURPASSES knowledge - Again: God IS Love!
Be Blessed!
wayne
@@MrHwaynefair it also says God HATES the wicked though. I do agree thoug, that the greatest punishment for a cocky wicked man would be to get humbled and see how wrong and foolish he was and repent. As opposed to just being destroyed.
Yes - and Jesus said we are to hate our parents if we are to follow him...
Yes - there are "explanations" - but the words remain there, black and white on the pages - long after the explanations have fallen silent...
This is THE greatest issue with Scripture: we even read it "through a glass darkly" - and we all privilege some verses over others... But which are the maximally good and true? It is those that are for me the passages by which I will interpret the others - fundamentally,, that God IS Love - and all other verses - even about His hatred of the wicked - or Esau - I chose to read in that light - the light of His maximal Goodness and Love...
Paul does this in Romans 11 - he tells us to behold BOTH the "goodness and severity of God" - but then ends with what is supremely and ultimately true of God: His Mercy on All - that from, through, and TO Him are ALL things❤️
Be Blessed my friend!
wayne
A compelling presentation
Thanks @TheHumbuckerboy! Good to see you back “here” commenting again.
So this is really similar to a purgatory type of argumentation on a philosophical level
maybe? Not sure it really rises to that level - just some basic questions based on some simple observations that challenge conventional interpretations...
@@MrHwaynefair right I'm just speaking in very general terms. But it's still largely hypothetical right? So would you still present hell to someone who wasn't familiar w/ the concept as very likely a place of potentially eternal flames and punishment or would you describe it to the person as a type of temporary correction? Matt10:28/5:28-30 still works for me as a celibate man who hasn't met a godly woman and has to battle against lust and porn temps for example. Mt5:28-30,10:28 is what worked for me and still is working; so the fear of avoiding that terrible fate. But I like this view as far as it not leaving the character of God so maligned
Excellent question, Justin. I cannot speak for Steve - but I think that the threat of eternal separation from God reveals a profound misunderstanding of just Who He really is....
Over the 69 years of my life - and engaging with various Christian understandings of the nature of God - I have finally (for the last 15+ years) come to a place in my own journey where I see God as completely, 100% Unconditional Love (in the same way He is unconditionally God) in His very essence. As Christians we grow toward or away from that Reality - that Living Truth (Jesus himself) - i.e. we mature or not..
And, as 1 John 4:18 says, "perfect [mature] love casts out all fear, because fear has to do with punishment..." Now, of course, that can be interpreted in diverse ways...
But I believe that one thing implied is that when we mature in our understanding (and deep acceptance of) God's unrelenting (even furious) Love - then we are no longer motivated by fear of punishments - but by the beauty of His Glory...
Believe me - I know the struggle with sexual sin - but I also know that when we fall into that sin that so easily besets us - NO one understands us better than our Abba - and our Lord, who entered into the depths of our human condition (even into the deepest depths of our fallenness)...
I have a dear friend who has been part of a group called Samson Society for years - he considers himself to have been addicted to porn for years - even while a priest... but he swears to the healing that this fellowship has brought him in this area - so, Please feel free to check them out
(and - to be clear - I am not suggesting that you are "addicted" - and it is not only for those so considered that this group exist)
samsonsociety.com/
Blessing my friend!
wayne
@@MrHwaynefair yeah well like I said its the fear mt10:28 of getting His wrath col3:5-6 that keeps me from the sin bc I decided it just wasn't worth going to hell over-1cor6:9-11 but to each there own-thanks for the reference
*Since Paul is clear that Christ does **_not_** help angels, how would fallen angels be reconciled to Christ without His help?*
*_"Through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross."_*_ --Col.__1:20_
*_"For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham._*_ Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted." --Hebrews 2:16-18_
That's an interesting paradox - but Scripture is full of them. Both things are "clear" (largely depending on who is looking and which direction they are predisposed to).
Neither I nor Steve Gregg claim (of a certainty) that "fallen angels [will] be reconciled". I think that is an open question that resides in the middle of the paradox itself (at least it is for me).
What I both believe and teach is that those who are made in God's image will be reconciled - because they are the offspring of God (Acts 17), etc.
Also - if you over-literalize the Hebrews text you quoted - you would also have to say you must be the "offspring of Abraham" to be helped, which would exclude Gentiles... I just don't think that is a dogmatic point of the text - but what is the point is that Jesus shared in our humanity to help all of humanity, etc.
Thanks!
As to the bible being silent as to man’s opportunity to repent after death, it is not silent, at least not totally. From Hebrews 6:4-9 we at least know that the fires of “hell” have nothing to do with salvation.
That passage says NOTHING about hell…
So- how do you “know” what you claim to know? “Our God is a consuming fire” - “We will ALL be salted with fire”
Paul speaks of of fire that will try every man’s work… and an escape “as through fire”
Are you really so sure you understand “hell”? I am fundamentally sure of ONE thing: God IS Love- and all He does- even the fiercest “hell” comes ultimately out of His Love…
@@MrHwaynefair granted. Whatever these fires are that burn the thorns and briars, they obviously, according to the author, are not something that accompany salvation. Heb 6:9. That was my point. You missed the point perhaps because you night not even bother to take the time to carefully consider alternative points of view. Maybe???
@@BuildingHisHouse You are right- I was irritated and it showed… I hope you can forgive me that even if you totally disagree.
I watched your video on Eternal Torment and the Mystery of the Slain Lamb. I can tell your love for Christ is very deep and sincere… but we couldn’t disagree more on your understanding of the Love of the Lamb…. the “love” you described there is limited- unlike the Love described in 1 Corinthians 13. You put the wrath of God on an equal footing with His Love… But scripture never says, “God is wrath” - but it does say, “God is Love” - and Love never fails… You quoted and sung one of my favorite hymns- and wept while you did… I believe you know in your heart that the Love of our Father is greater than anything either of us can imagine… Could God really be that Good? Yes!
@@MrHwaynefair I agree with you. I may have even quoted in that video someone who once said that the wrath of God is as perfect as the love of God, for they flow from the same bosom. That, of course is not scriptural, and you are correct, God's wrath is not who He is, but He is love! I no longer use that quote, nor do I agree with it. I no longer put His wrath on the same level as his love. So far as eternal torment, I cannot conceive of it, but I currently see it clearly taught in scripture, though I could be wrong, of course. If you can answer my arguments for it in a substantive and biblical way, I am certainly open to being corrected. I don't know if I can post a link here or not. I tried earlier, and it appears that it was not allowed, but I will try to post it again in a reply to this reply. It is an article I wrote on the subject called Eternal Judgment - Are Universal Reconciliation or Annihilationism True?
@@BuildingHisHouse - please send the link to my personal email address:
hwaynefair [at] yahoo [dot] com
Wherever you land (for now - for we are both on a journey into the heart of God...) on this very important issue/question -
I just want to share something that struck me so profoundly not too long ago:
Paul, the great Apostle, never seemed to be at a loss for words - e.g. he could talk on and on into the night (Acts 20:7) trying to express the immeasurable riches of the Reality of Jesus Christ that he first encountered on the Road to Damascus...
In his magisterial letter to the Ephesians he seems to make a remarkable admission (at least by implication): that with all the inspired words he wrote to them (and us) - there is one thing above all about this Christ that we could never grasp even if written about...And that one thing is "the Love of Christ"... and so he prayed (as I do for you - and I beg you to do for me) - *to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ and to know this love that surpasses knowledge*
(Eph.3:18-19)
Again - that old hymn puts it so beautifully and touches my heart so deeply:
"to write the love of God above - would drain the oceans dry - nor could the scroll contain the whole - though stretched from sky to sky..." (of course, not surprisingly, my favorite line is: "it goes beyond the highest star, and reaches to the lowest hell...)
I look forward to reading your article, Mark - and I want to thank you for showing me afresh what Christ-like humility looks like...
Blessings in His Immeasurable and Abounding Grace and Love!
wayne
Conditionism or Reconcilliationsism are both more plausible to my lights than ECT.
But, Of these two - which yields a maximal view of God's Goodness and Love? Which approaches a Love that surpasses knowledge?
Thanks for your comment!
Good insight and something to think about.
Thanks for your comment!
Blessings in Our *Immensely* Loving, Powerful and Gracious Saviour -
wayne
the problem is, some people NEVER STOP turning away from God. that is what kills them. They shall never return. He is the source of life. obedience is life ( like the instruction to Adam to NOT eat the fruit). on the day we stop obeying Him, is the day we begin to die. But of course we also inherited all the damage to the human genome that resulted as well. Christ came to save us from this inheritance and our own sins, and salvage us for eternal life. Because some of us are " fixable" while others are not, and they are culls who will never return to Him nor cooperate with Him for salvation.
“Who then can be saved?”- the disciples
“… with God ALL things are possible”- Jesus
“18Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.” Romans 5
Blessings!
wayne
Some translations are worded, Their part will be in the lake of fire burning with sulfur. A synonym for "part" is - portion.
So, rendering that as something that would go on endlessly wouldn't make any sense.
True if it was endless then Hell has no purpose and no possible outcome, doesn't make one bit of sense. And if death itself is finally thrown in lake of Fire how could this so called Hell possibly be literal
This is a blessing!
you have some very good points
Good job Steve.
The heart. .
Picture a first round draft pick who turns into a bust. Then picture a seventh round pick who turns into a hall of famer. It's not the quantity, but the quality. The perseverance.
Even one who repents makes all of heaven stand still. .
Because it's a rare heart that is able to see what it does unto others.
"What you have done for the least of these you have done for me. What you didn't do for the least of these, you didn't do for me"
The heart determines the punishment. Only a repentant heart. . That is. . A heart that becomes self aware. . Will do unto others in a way that does not burden them. "My yoke is easy and my burden is light".
Like human beings desire to create the holy grail of computer technology. . A self aware system. . So to it that God builds this world to make a self aware heart. . That becomes his bride. But not a bride he has to control. Or a bride who goes astray. . But a bride that challenges him. . Is strong. . One he does not control. . But at the same time is his match.
God made eve for Adam because he saw all the work Adam was doing and that he was lonely. . So too did God work for six days and then rested. God is building a self aware bride. . Heart. . One where he doesn't need to be God to them. . But one who loves him even though he is God. . But doesn't see him in that way. She treats him as one she loves.
There is no hell in the true Hebrew or Greek scriptures, the Hell wordcame to us Viva the Latin Vulgate, Jesus never said it,and his apostles never taught it,!!
God has taken it upon Himself to play a chess game with the enemy in order to conquer death hell and the grave so that none should perish. So we must ask ourselves, at what point does He abandon play? Because that’s what would be required for any soul to be lost. Our salvation is not about us and whether we are good enough or not. We will be restored for the sake of Jesus and for the sake of God’s plan and will.
It is indeed possible that I am wrong about what I’ve believed.
And yes I am very much looking for truth.
By way of background, I am 25 years in the CC movement and am currently a CC Pastor.
I’m kind of ashamed to admit that I have never given a second thought to alternative theological views but instead trusted my pastors and teachers as smarter and wiser than myself
They must have done their homework,, right??
Anyway,, I have a quick question regarding hell
What does the almillennialist believe. Is hell real and is it eternal.
Do they believe that a person can be saved if they die in their sins and rejection of Jesus.
We’ll start slow. Lol.
Thanks so much for your kind and good-spirited reply, Robert! I look forward (if you are interested) in an ongoing dialogue - as we both prayerfully seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and in that Spirit to build one another up in our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ❤️
First of all I will try and answer your question - then a bit of a bio so you can better know who I am - and where I am coming from…
I have to admit that when I first read your response I thought you were asking me “what does the ANNIHILATIONIST believe” 😂
Then on second reading I realized you were asking about amillennialism.
Briefly, I would say that this position does (typically) believe that hell IS real - and that those who “die in their sins” will at that point find their eternal fate forever sealed. Steve (who is an amillennialist) may be an exception to this predominant perspective. The main distinctive (in my opinion) is that there is no “literal” millennium - and that things will (overall) get progressively worse until the “second coming” of Christ. (I used to be a PCA pastor - and many of these Presbyterians are amillennialist.) So it does not necessarily dictate or entail what one believes about “final judgment” per se.
BTW - By CC do you mean Calvary Chapel?
Let me make it very clear that I am not Steve Gregg (who, of course, has a history with Calvary Chapel). The video you commented on is the second most watched video on my channel (Sovereign Love). The reason I extracted it from the larger video is because it is SO refreshing to me when someone (especially a pastor or teacher) actually takes time to consider (in good faith) the claims of what I call “Historic Christian Universalism” - or ‘Biblical Universalism”…. There are so many assumptions imposed on this position that lead most Bible-believers to just toss it in the “heresy bin”. In the end Steve is NOT saying that he personally embraces this position - but he does affirm that it can have a true Biblical basis and is very worthy of consideration….
The video comes from a larger presentation of three historic view of “hell” by Steve found here:
th-cam.com/video/jBuG689nM1s/w-d-xo.html
So, to reciprocate your sharing about some of your background - here are few things about myself:
My name is Wayne Fair and I am from Tuscaloosa, Alabama (home of The University of Alabama). I am 69 years of age - was raised as a PK (preacher’s kid) in the home of a Baptist pastor (moving to various cities in the southeast over the course of my young life). As we Baptist put it - I “felt the call” to ministry at the age of 16, was “licensed to preach” at that time - then at graduation went on to attend the U of A, majoring in Religious Studies and minoring in Philosophy (all of which is said, not to present myself as some kind of “intellectual” - that piece of paper basically qualified me to buy a cup of coffee at the usual prices!) After college (which coincided with marriage to my wife, Pat, now approaching our 50th anniversary - evolving into 4 children and 13 grands [so far!]) I then proceeded to seminary at Reformed Theological Seminary, Jackson, MS. I forgot to mention that in my early college years I had been exposed to the “Reformed” perspective and found Romans 9 so compelling I embraced “5-Point Calvinism”. It took several decades for me to get around to seriously reading Romans 10-11 - which led, with deep repentance, to my departure from that perspective… but that’s another story - which I, BTW, flesh out in my “Why I left Calvinism” series on this channel…
I pastored full time for several years - then bi-vocationally for a few as I began a parallel career as a software engineer (or, more modestly, just a plain old “computer programmer”)
About 17 years ago I embarked on a journey that has changed my life… somehow (and, with fading memory, I cannot not say precisely how) I began to ponder God’s ultimate plan and purpose for His creation - which inevitably led me to consider “ultimate” eschatological questions (and, by the way, this is distinct from “penultimate” question, which I consider ones “millennial” position to be “penultimate”) - i.e. where is “all this” headed?
Is it really as simple as I have been taught: that there will be an eternal divide down the center of God’s creation between those who are forever “lost” in the fires of hell - and those (few?) who have had the good fortune of hearing the Gospel and embracing it? Is that really “Good News for all” - or just a “good possibility” for the few?
We can explore the details as deeply as you wish, but for now I will just say that it led me to ultimately embrace a very deep and transforming belief in the restoration, reunification, reconciliation and renewal of “ALL things” - to the Glory of God the Father. And (to school off of your question about amillennialism) I DO believe in a very real “hell” - but I am convinced that it is not “eternal”.
Why? Because of one little Greek word often used in the New Testament along with “punishment”: aionios. To “translate” this word as simply “eternal” is NOT “translation” - it is “interpretation”. As the BibleHub “Strongs” dictionary puts it:
166: αἰώνιος
Definition: agelong, eternal
Usage: age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.
biblehub.com/greek/166.htm
All I want you to take note of here is THE AMBIGUITY (at the least in terms of the Greek definition and usage) - i.e. that it does not simply (or by default) mean “eternity” - THIS was what began my journey into Christian Universalism - it cracked open (ever so slightly) a possibility: maybe the Good News is better than I ever imagined! (much more to come later, should you so desire). Maybe the Good News is, as one NT scholar has said, “a blunt indicative”!?
Forgive this old windbag for going on so long… I very much look forward to hearing your thoughts and reflections, Robert!
Richest and Eternal Blessing in Him Who Is the Fount of ALL Blessings - God our Father, “the Savior of all people” (1 Tim. 4:10)
-wayne
P.S. Just in case you want to dig deeper into the fundamental “aionios” issue - here is an excellent article:
afkimel.wordpress.com/2022/06/05/sometimes-eternity-aint-forever-aionios-and-the-universalist-hope-2/
There are many books and resources - e.g. Biblical video presentations, that I can recommend - but I will leave that for later should you be interested 👍🏼
Rob - While I would love to hear back from you, I won't spam you with "replies"....
I just want you to know that should you ever desire to go deeper in this conversation that I am here for you...
May God continue to richly bless you, your family, and your ministry!
In Him Who IS Love,
-wayne
Sneaky. Nothing like comparing yourself as a better man than a Holy God. No one likes the doctrine of Hell. That doesn't make it go away though. Very dangerous teaching - and he can call it pondering all he wants to remove accountablity but that strategy is as old as it gets, just repackaged. Saddes part is the impact stuff. like this will have on souls who had the itching ears and heard what they wanted to hear. This is not loving at all. Hell is real, and love warns about that.
Steve NEVER denies the doctrine of hell - it's very real, very hot and lasts for an "age" ("aionios" does NOT simply mean "eternal") -
If you believe in a god who will torture His own offspring for all eternity (or even His enemies, whom He is said to love) - you believe in a moral monster - not the God who IS Love.
Love is fierce and unrelenting - and our God IS a consuming fire. Jesus said, "we must ALL be salted with fire" (Mark 9:49)
May God help us both to see better and better the height, depth and breadth of the LOVE of Christ that surpasses knowledge!
@@MrHwaynefair I think we need to be carefuol of calling God a monster if Hell is eternal, or as Steve said, He would be vindictive. God is Holy, Holy, Holy. Do you or any of us begin to grasp His Holiness? I don't. I believe what His Word says, and don't rely on my understanding. I hate the doctrine of Hell. And, out of love for lost people who will go to Hell without trust in Christ, telling them there is no eternal punishment for rejecting Christ, is unloving. What he does here, and in context of saying its possible is not loving, or as someone put it, it is 'loving' people straight to hell. No one wants it to be true, but that doesn't mean it isn't.
I did not call the true and living God a moral monster - He isn't, He *IS* Love.
The false "god" of tradition (who tortures His own children for an eternity) doesn't exist - but if he did he WOULD be a "moral monster"!
Yes! God IS "Holy, Holy, Holy" (and - "the WHOLE earth is FULL of His GLORY!") - which means *there is NO one like Him* ! And YES - NONE of us can "grasp" His Holiness! But the Bible nowhere says that about His holiness - but it *DOES* say we cannot grasp His Love: "the LOVE of Christ that surpasses knowledge.... [He] is able to do more than we can think or imagine" (Eph.3:19-20). NO ONE is like God when it comes to His wrath - for example consider: "I will NOT carry out my fierce anger, nor will I devastate Ephraim again. For I AM GOD, and not a man- *THE HOLY ONE* among you. I will not come against their cities." - Hos.11:9
He is HOLY in this: "I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity." - Jonah 4:2
Do you not see that you are failing to consider that you cannot separate His Holiness from His Love? God is NOT internally divided - he is NOT schizophrenic! Do you NOT believe that Love "keeps no record of wrongs" - that Love "endures all things" - that Love "NEVER fails"?
The Bible PROMISES that God WILL restore ALL things - reunite ALL things - reconcile ALL things and renew ALL things.
*Do you NOT believe this?*
So I too believe "what His Word says" - BUT, what *translation* of "His Word" do you believe? Here are two that accurately capture the meaning of the Greek word "aionios" (MIS-translated as "eternal" in what YOU call "the Word of God" - but is only a translation/interpretation of the original Greek and Hebrew texts) in Matt.25:
""And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages."" - Weymouth New Testament
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'" - Young's Literal Translation
"Aionios" (MIS-translated as simply "eternal") definition/usage from BibleHub: "age-long, and therefore: practically[!] eternal, unending; partaking of the character of *that which lasts for an age* , as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting." - Aionios" is from "aión": an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.
Again - I believe in the TRUE hell that burns with the consuming fire ["our God IS a consuming fire"] of the Wrath of God's Love ("Love is not *easily* angered" - but there is NOTHING that can become more angry than real Love - "LOVE is strong as death, jealousy is fierce as the grave. Its flashes are flashes of fire, the very flame of the LORD." - Son of Solomon 8:6
I beg you - ask yourself, "WHY do I HATE the doctrine of hell"? Because you know in your "inner man" - the image of God (which is Jesus Christ, THE Image of God) stamped on your very being, the very source of your conscience.... You intuitively know that the traditional "doctrine of hell" simply isn't right - just - or fair. God is the perfect (AND Loving) judge - he will mete out judgments and (restorative) punishment so that Jesus himself says that *some will be beaten with many stripes - others with few* (see Luke 12:47-48)
But you *CAN* Love and embrace the TRUE "doctrine of hell" held by many (maybe even most!) Christians of the first 300 years (and is reported by many of the early writers/theologians like Clement, Origin and Gregory of Nyssa) - because they understood it as an expression of God's SEVERE but Fatherly Love towards all who bear His image - all who are inescapably His children.
Think about it: Does God - who CANNOT change - LOVE the sinner and unbeliever - UNTIL they die - then cease to Love them? NO! His LOVE endures forever! (see Psalm 136 - it affirms this 26 times!)
But, regarding His anger, the Bible says:
Psalms 103:8-13:
"He does not become angry quickly, and he has great love. He will not always accuse us, and *he will not be angry forever* ".
Psalms 103:9:
"He will not always accuse, *nor will he harbor his anger forever* ".
Isaiah 57:16:
"For I will not contend forever, *nor will I always be angry* "
Jeremiah 3:5
*Will He be angry forever? Will He be indignant to the end?* This you have spoken, but you keep doing all the evil you can."
Jeremiah 3:12
Go, proclaim this message toward the north: 'Return, O faithless Israel,' declares the LORD. 'I will no longer look on you with anger, for I am merciful,' declares the LORD. ' *I will not be angry forever* .
Micah 7:18
Who is a God like You, who pardons iniquity and passes over the transgression of the remnant of His inheritance--*who does not retain His anger forever* , because He delights in loving devotion?
Finally - please consider that THIS is what "the Word of God" says:
Lamentations 3:31-33
For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love. For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to anyone.
God BLESS you as you continue to wrestle with this - to wrestle with God (as did Jacob) and His Word!
-wayne
P.S. Here is a link full of eight-plus pages of scripture passages that reveal the eternal Love of God for ALL:
sovereign-love.blog/2023/11/12/scripture-proofs-of-gods-eternal-love-%e2%9d%a4%ef%b8%8f/
@@MrHwaynefair God's foremost attribute is He is *holy,* not just love, which includes "severity":
Romans 11:20 ..Don’t be conceited, but FEAR; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches [the truly ethnic Jews], neither will he spare you. 22 See then the GOODNESS *and SEVERITY* of God. Toward those who fell, SEVERITY; but toward you, GOODNESS, IF YOU CONTINUE in his GOODNESS; OTHERWISE YOU WILL ALSO BE *CUT OFF* [like in Mt. 7:19 and John 15:6].
The "severity" side of God is constantly avoided in sermons today, K-LOVE's "positive and encouraging"-only music, what's shared in social media.
It's serious error to determine doctrine based upon only one side of God's character, which is what I see is going on here. Many statements Jesus makes about hell being eternal aren't mentioned at all, and the serious warnings about avoiding hell in the New Testament.
Paul presents the balanced view of God in Romans 11, which I don't hear any pastors/teachers teaching today, just as hell is hardly mentioned, so the majority of "Christians" aren't walking according to the Spirit, but according to the flesh. Most lust without ever fully repenting, including pastors, so Satan is being allowed to destroy America and the world at the fastest pace in recent centuries.
About 90 New Testament passages refute "once saved only saved" and "only believe," and in many of these are warning about hell if we don't overcome by God's grace, by walking according to the Spirit.
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."
Modern teaching, starting with Luther and Calvin (or maybe even more so, Beza), then jumping to Billy Graham and now almost everyone has removed the fear of the Lord, so Jesus' prayer in John 17 and goal in Ephesians 4:11-16 is being ignored.
Instead of revival, we have apostasy, almost all born-again Christians being lust-demon driven, many hating people, etc..
They're in the wrong list in Galatians 5, which Steve ignored in his teaching on Galatians.
I do not believe the scripture ever mentions "hell". Gehenna, or however it is spelt, is a physical place outside old Jerusalem. It's the trash dump where the fires burned perpetually. It's even the place where adherents to the baal cult sacrificed their children. In Matthew, the Lord says those who do not get out of Jerusalem with it's coming destruction will end up in Gehenna, hell, where their bodies will be burned. This actually happened in 70 AD when Rome sacked Jerusalem. There is no post mortem place for souls separated from God. Church leaders such as Augustine and reform theologians made up hell to keep their congregates in line just as fundamentalist and evangelical ministers do the same today. I'll never again support these places that pervert the love and mercy of the true Christian God!!
Nice work!
Thanks!
Hey Trevor - would you like to chat (zoom) sometime?
If you're interested - just reach out to me at:
hwaynefair [at] yahoo [dot] com
(and if you're just too busy - no worries or pressure!)
Thanks and Many Blessings!
-wayne
If the majority of people go to hell or are eternally separated from God, then that would mean Saten is the victor, and God loses.
What a perfect God create a plan that didn't go as planned?
Would God create irredeemable people?
Afterall Jesus said with God nothing is impossible, but the church says redeeming all people is impossible.
The fire is symbolic in the lake of fire it's not literal.
Look at the use of the word fire in judgment in 1st Corinthians chapter 3:13, it tests the quality of each man's work, it's not there to burn them and torture them screaming and hollering for all of eternity so God can get his jollies.
The cross = love for sinners
Hell= hate for sinners
See the contradiction
You cant take the position that God does not want forced confessions and God will make a new way for those that die in rejection to His only way of salvation
“For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another- He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of MANY To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.”
Hebrews 9:24-28 NKJV
Thanks, for your comment, Robert.
I have two questions for you (before replying to your objection):
1. Are you interested in a "good faith" discussion?
2. Is it just possible you are wrong (but not completely) about what you currently believe about God's justice and judgment?
Thanks and Blessings!
wayne
Experiencing a portion of something.
That's all I'm trying to say.
Steve Gregg was one of my first Bible teachers. So I hope this rebuttal is understood to be coming from a place of love and respect:
Your reasoning seems to be predicated on notion that being human is synonymous with being a child of God. I’m afraid this can’t be the case. For how then could our LORD call the pharisees children of the devil? How also could God denounce those whom He “never knew” if they are or even were at one time His children.
Furthermore, how might it be said of Judas Iscariot that it would’ve been better if he “had never been born” if all are destined to be reconciled to the Father?
Universalism-particularly “Christian” universalism is appealing to my human reasoning. But as Proverbs 14:12 says, “There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.”
God did not apologize or defend His character before righteous Job. Nor should we feel compelled to do so on God’s behalf before His enemies.
Preaching this more palatable version of Jesus will most certainly rid people of their fear of the LORD, and could possibly cause them to fall in love with a false doctrine and a false christ.
I know that is not the goal of Mr Gregg’s sermon. And if he truly is in limbo on this matter, I pray the LORD brings him out of this potentially dangerous deception that is sweeping the modern church.
Blessings.
I acknowledge and genuinely appreciate that your critique comes from a place of love and respect - and that your counter argument is offered in good-faith.
Let me respond as best I can…
We can each try to establish our perspectives by picking various passages as grounds for our perspectives/positions (and I am very certain Steve has considered the conundrum you raise about “children of the devil” and would have an illuminating answer).
The answer (to me) lies somehow in the profound statement from Psalm 119, “the sum of thy word is truth”.
First I would observe that Jesus at times made statements that can only be ultimately taken as hyperbole - extreme and shocking things that are intended to arouse the hearers from their spiritual slumbers - and are not intended to be the only or final word on the matter. One of the best examples of this I can think of is where he said in plain and unambiguous terms that if we are to follow him we must HATE our parents. This is what the Greek of the text literally says - but is it what He literally means? - in some ultimate and final sense is this what Jesus means or intends? I think the answer is obvious: No. Why? Because we know there are OTHER passages that are countervailing - e.g. we are to honor our parents - we are to love ALL, even our enemies, etc.
So with Jesus calling the Pharisees “children of the devil” - they think of themselves as children of Abraham - but Jesus (I believe) seeks to arouse them - shock them into another perspective by His rebuke.
Jesus calls Peter “Satan” - is this literally true - especially in a way that totally obscures His relationship with and love for Peter? Of course not.
To counter-balance your doubt about all humanity as God’s children - you must come to terms with such passages as Acts 17 where Paul affirms (twice) that “we are all His [God’s] children” (Amplified Bible). I believe this is especially grounded in the fact that each and every human born is “fearfully and wonderfully made” in the image of God. I think it is instructive here to see that the very first place the double-description “image and likeness” are used after Adam’s creation is Genesis 5 - where we are told that Adam had a son in his “image and likeness” - Seth.
Jesus seems to assume His audience has this relationship with God - often saying of them “your Father”, etc. I think the mystery of this relationship - even the ambiguity of it is captured in His statement about loving ones enemies, “that you may become children of your heavenly Father” - which seems to be saying God is already your Father - but you need to become [mature?] what you are - actually “live into it”, so to speak.
About Judas - there is at least one thing to consider: it does not say it would not have been better had he not existed - i.e. what if Judas had been conceived but never born (alive)? That is among the possibilities of what this emotionally charged text could mean. I simply do not believe that cherry picking such verses presents us with an irresolvable problem or ultimate contradiction to God’s universal Love and intention to save “all”.
So we must ultimately ask: is someone like Judas beyond all hope - beyond the power of God? Jesus answers such a question when he speaks of the camel going through the eye of a needle - and on the possibility of the rich being saved: The disciples “got it” and asked “who then CAN be saved”? Jesus’ answer - “with God ALL things are possible”. Paul echoes this ultimate truth when time and again he states “God is able…”. Perhaps we, like Abraham, “hope against hope”…
I would offer for your consideration these final thoughts:
There simply are many passages that explicitly give us the promise of God’s universal intentions - plan - and purposes. Steve has not simply gone off the rails with mere human reasoning or desire - he is genuinely wrestling with Scripture that counters the assumed belief in eternal conscious torment!
Most powerful (to me) among them are such passages as Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15 which present Christ as the last Adam - and that just as none of us were consulted (e.g. our free will) about the effect of Adam’s sin and the condemnation that comes to us ALL through his actions - so also (“how much more”) is the redemptive effects of Christ death and resurrection brought to ALL.
God does not intend or purpose that the end or goal of creation be an eternal divide between heaven and hell - His purpose is through Christ (the Final WORD) to “reunite all things” (Ephesians 1) and the “reconciliation of all things” (Col.1) (and I take “all things” to be all created things - create in, by and for “Him”, Jesus Christ!)
He takes away the sin of the world - He will draw [drag] all men to himself when He is lifted up - He will leave the 99 and not return until He has found the last lost lamb… God desires that ALL be saved - and in His Sovereign Love, this love will not be ultimately frustrated - He sent His Word into the world that the world might be saved - and His Word will not return to Him void but will accomplish all for which it was sent…. (Isaiah 55:11)
The greatest story that Jesus gave about this is that of (what we call) the prodigal son… That son represents each and every one of us… and it was finally said of him that “he came to himself” - he woke up to his true identity as a son of his father… and in repentance made his way “home” to the Father…
That awakening awaits each and every one of us: every knee will bow and every tongue will swear allegiance - God’s desire to “have mercy on all” will see its fulfillment - for “from Him and through and to Him are all things”.
God’s richest blessings on you as you continue your journey into the heart of the Father!
Brother,
I come to terms with Acts 17 by understanding that Paul’s appeal to his Grecian audience is a tactful one, in which he uses elements that a Greek would already understand to impart a doctrine that would have otherwise sounded very foreign and very Jewish. I do not believe that the alter erected to “THE UNKNOWN GOD” of the Athenians was actually built to honor Jesus or even YHWH. But just as Paul used this as a means to introduce them to the one true God, I believe he likewise used an excerpt from their “own poets” (Acts 17:28) to introduce them to the Spirit of Adoption through Christ, by faith.
The concept of adoption, by the way, would hold very little meaning for those who are already the offspring by nature.
I may be wrong, for I am no scholar, but it is my understanding that the biblical patriarchs did not think of human beings as sons of God, but reserved such titles for heavenly beings. And I wholly reject our LORD giving us the power to be called children if The Most High as a mere euphemism for humans recognizing and embracing their own intrinsic nature, value and potential. That belief is New Age and did not come from above.
Now concerning hyperbole. I fully acknowledge the Bible’s frequent use of it so as to illustrate deeper truths. That said, the truth which we extrapolate from out LORD’s use of hyperbole cannot be the exact opposite of what He is figuratively saying. Otherwise what would be the point of saying anything at all? If I say I can run like the wind, I must at very least be pretty fast, or else I am not being hyperbolic but a liar.
Calling the Pharisees children of the Devil is in perfect harmony with other passages of scripture, such as the wheat and the tares, the sheep and goats, the wise and the foolish and so forth. If you insist that in every single one of these instances our LORD is merely speaking hyperbolically, I won’t argue with you (nor will I agree). But I hope we can at least agree, in light of what the scriptures teach us, both in literal and figurative terms, that to be God’s child in any sense that actually matters, one must be in Christ, the only begotten Son of The Father.
I apologize if it seems like I was cherry picking verses, such as what our LORD said concerning Judas. That said, the Bible does say twice (in Mathew’s Gospel and in Mark’s) that “it would’ve been good for that man had he not been born.” Knowing full well the passage to which I’m referring, I’m not sure how much more context you’d need to recognize it as a legitimate strike against your viewpoint. Particularly when you consider (as even Mr Gregg has admitted) that the Bible is very much silent on the matter of repentance post judgement.
I noticed you’re quoting from the Amplified Bible. And you know what, good on you, because I am not the King-James-Bible-only sort of Christian. However, concerning Romans 14:11, I found that most other translations read, “Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess TO God,” which makes sense to me, in light of the scriptures that speak of The Great White Throne judgement. That said, I am no linguist, but it seems a far cry from that to say that “Every tongue will swear allegiance to God.” And as a musician I’m reminded how amplification tends to creat distortion. Food for thought.
On the surface this may seem like a secondary issue. But I hope through this critique to point out just how close you are to a gnostic heresy. For I see very little difference between “All roads lead to God” and “And all roads lead to Christ, who leads to God.” If we’re being honest, this is exactly what the Christian Universalist is implying. And I do not believe you can read the Bible with unbiased eyes and come to this conclusion. You just can’t.
Understand me, brother. I have every reason in the world to want to agree with you, speaking of my unsaved loved ones, and absolutely nothing at all to lose if I turn out to be wrong. But Jesus gives no such hope to those who reject so great a salvation, such as He offers. Both His words and the warning in my heart tell me that this is a dangerous belief to espouse and even flirt with. And I see more clearly every day the fruit of Universalism in all flavors to be love without truth, grace without repentance, salvation without fruit, sonship without adoption, a god without holiness, a judgement without wrath, a christ with no cross, sin without consequence, a gospel with no power and a church with no Godly fear.
My sister and her family became Christian Universalists a few years ago, and such a paradigm shift has not caused them to live holier lives. Quite the opposite in fact. Today, I’m sorry to say, there isn’t a nickel’s worth of difference between them and the World. Her 7 and 8-year-old children roll their eyes at the mere mention of Jesus. And as I understand it, her husband is even now questioning his belief in God entirely… Don’t fall into this pit, brother, and don’t lead others to it. For I am quite sure that there is no bottom.
I apologize if this response fails to address every point you made earlier. There were many of them, after all, and my memory only serves me so well. Even so, I hope you receive it just as well as you received my initial rebuttal. Thank you for your time and for taking my concerns seriously.
Godspeed.
Thanks again for your irenic and good-faith response.
There are different kinds of Christian Universalist - and some indeed make a cheap thing of grace - and basically deny the reality of hell (even as a temporal but potentially very long process of ages of painful refining punishment - but one in which the just punishments of God are carried out - e.g. "some will be beaten with many stripes - others with few" - and "you will not get out until you have paid the last penny", "I will punish to the third and fourth generation" (not eternally) etc.
My view (unlike your sister's) is not that of "cheap grace" - and is best captured in such teachers as George MacDonald (see Unspoken Sermons - the chapter on Justice) whose understanding of God is that He IS a "consuming fire" (and that Love is set on fire with the fire of Yah - Song of Solomon) - and He will not let anyone out of the purifying fires of hell until He has removed" all that is not of love's kind"...
What should be acknowledged is that we BOTH take the "plain" reading of texts and have to interpret them (adding our own understanding as best we can). I think you greatly minimize what Paul DOES say in Acts 17, for instance - and you wind up making the "children of the devil" passages of fundamental importance - but I (on the other hand) make the image of God (in which we are ALL made) as the grounds for us all being "the offspring of God" of fundamental importance - and therefore the story of the prodigal son as a story true for us all. You see - we are forced by such conundrums to make a choice - and I chose to believe that God IS Love - and His justice, holiness and wrath can NEVER be separated from His essence.
What you have not responded to are the many passages that DO minimally hint and others that maximally state clearly that this (universalist) perspective is taught in Scripture. Many (if not most) of the earliest Biblical expositors of the first 300 years of the Church's history took such a perspective (universal reconciliation) - and, for most, Greek was their native language. I know that doesn't "prove" my perspective - but it should weigh in as evidence. Such passages remain "there" after all our arguments are done (both those you make dominant in your interpretation - and those that I make out to be fundamental for my perspective).
Steve sees all of this and is trying to come to terms with this paradox and tension - but do you think that he just lacks the proper intelligence to "see" what should be obvious to everyone?
So - in the end, my foundational belief is that God IS Love - and the essence of Love is not something that is beyond our understanding (though the limits and boundaries of the Love of Christ are - as Paul clearly states to the Ephesians). My second foundational belief is that we ARE "all His offspring/children" - and this is why we are of such "great worth" to Him - and why He really does "so loved the world"...
This also means that I think your take on adoption is fundamentally wrong - you are reading a more modern and Western conception of "adoption" into Paul's word -
Consider that Paul says we already have a relation to the "father" before the day of adoption obtains (in Galatians 4:2)
This is a good alternative understanding that I take to be closer to the truth of the matter:
th-cam.com/video/IOp7foMwmL8/w-d-xo.htmlsi=40JJ8Ao_Uz_ZyzcC
IF Jesus came to save the world - will He fail to do all that the Father sent Him to accomplish? I think not - nor can I believe that in the end (after eons and eons of time) that His creation will exist for eternity in utter division - for God's purpose in Christ is to unify "all things" - to reconcile "all things" - and to make "all things" new!
Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree - but I DO appreciate your passion and love for our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ - who is "the savior of all men - especially of those that believe"!
Blessing on You and Your House!
wayne
PS - I strongly encourage you to listen to the playlist, "Hope Beyond Hell" - where the fundamental misinterpretation of "aionios" (mistranslated as simply "eternal") is addressed from Scripture...
You,Sir, take criticism like a man, and I earnestly applaud you for it. You’re a credit to your theological camp, whichever kind of Christian Universalist that might be. I truly apologize if I have mischaracterized your beliefs, and am overjoyed that you understand the great cost at which came our amazing grace.
As per your question concerning Steve Gregg, I assert that he lacks nothing in intelligence. But neither is he beyond deception. None of us are. As I mentioned earlier, he was one of my first Bible teachers, one whom I still hold in high esteem. I even knew years ago that he was the author of a book that expounded on the three views of Hell. Admittedly, I never read the book. Didn’t think I needed to. I listened to his podcast on the topic, and was quite sure that he in no way regarded all three views as being equal in their scriptural merit. I was led to believe he was in support of conditional immortality, the position I myself hold. Therefore I was surprised to find that he is apparently in limbo on the matter, for reasons I feel have more to do with philosophy than scripture. Nevertheless, being in limbo, he clearly acknowledges that there is at least some, if not substantial Biblical reason to doubt the claims of Universal reconciliation, as I suspect a man as smart as you does as well. And with such reasons, I haven’t the foggiest idea why you wouldn’t err on the side of caution. Particularly in light of Mark 9:42.
I understand that you (and evidently Mr Gregg as well) hold man’s intrinsic sonship as fundamentally important to your case. Which is why I attempted to address it in the first place. And, yes, on this I’m afraid we must agree to disagree. For it is my fundamental belief, and paramount to the Gospel, that we become God’s children when we are saved because we are adopted into God’s family through our relationship with Jesus Christ. For what its worth, see 1 John 3:10. You’ve explained away a similar verse with hyperbole. But perhaps you should apply that same logic to certain excerpts you’ve taken from Paul; whom Peter already admits to being “hard to understand,” and not just to verses that undermine your viewpoint.
I apologize for failing to address all of the passages that seem to favor your position in this TH-cam comment. Perhaps I’ll write a book someday. But in the meantime, I’ll have to content myself with these:
“Some will be beaten with many stripes-others with few.”
Amen. I am an annihilationist.
“I will punish to the third and fourth generation.”
There are no further generations post resurrection. For “in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels in Heaven.” Therefore the passage you’ve cited cannot be about punishment after death.
“You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.”
I’m pleased you brought this one up, in that the meaning you seem to derive from it encapsulates the core reason I utterly reject Christian Universalism. The blood of Jesus saves us from the wrath of God (Romans 5:6-11). Jesus is the master who forgives us the great debt we could not repay. He is our passover Lamb. They who are not sealed with The Blood will have their part in the lake of fire, and the wrath of God will not pass over them. And should they be released from their proverbial dungeon, having actually paid off the immense sum of their debt, it will not have been at our LORD’s expense but their own. Brother, this CANNOT be the case. There is not a hard way and a more expedient way to the Father. There is one way, one hope, one life and all three of them begin and end with Jesus. If He does not pay for the sins, then He is not Redeemer. Can’t you see that this is the logical implication of what your position holds? Therefore I conclude the man in the parable who is thrown into prison until he has paid off every last cent will be there not until he has saved up enough to repay the master, but until he expires.
Yes, brother, God is Love. But so say those peddling the prosperity gospel. So say all the gay-affirming preachers and every other goat and tare who will not inherit the Kingdom. To which-if I may quote the Princess Bride-would say, “You keep using that word…I do not think it means what you think it means.” Our God, who is love, is the same God who is thrice holy, who destroyed the world with a flood, who destroyed Sodom with fire, who struck down ananias and sapphira, who separates the sheep from the goats and Who will put all His enemies under His feet; and won’t be any less loving for having done so. Because, as you say, He is love, whether or not our philosophies agree.
Anyway, I’ve taken up enough of your time. I promise to listen to Hope Beyond Hell, as you recommended, if you agree to pray earnestly and ask the LORD to reveal the truth of this matter. I will do likewise. You have my word..
Thanks for your kind words - I could echo your sentiments for maintaining a tone of a truly respectful discussion - even in those points wherein we strongly disagree.
While we obviously do not agree about “adoption” ( I see it as a setting in and acknowledgment of sonship come of age - more like a Bar Mitzvah than “adoption” in the sense that we are unrelated orphans who are “adopted” by one who is no father at all or in any way to us). But you still haven’t dealt adequately with the paradox that such passages as Acts 17 presents where Paul emphasizes the nearness of God to his pagan audience - and twice calls them “the offspring of God”. This won’t go away… Nor will the profound truth of the prodigal son - he is and remains a true son of his father even in the depts. of his rebellion… And you still have to deal with all that is implied in Genesis 5 and how it relates to our being made in God’s image and likeness (and I take of deep importance the fact that Jesus IS “the image of God” - that we were made in, by and for Christ according to Colossians - and are through faith being remade in that image (of our creator) according to Colossians 3.
But where we most fundamentally disagree is on the deepest nature of Love: I believe that true love - the greatest love - seeks what is the very best for “the other” - even for ones enemies. An I believe that Love can include some rather strong and fiery punishments - if it will in the long run bring about repentance and reform. This is NOT a payment for sins - the trespasses against the Law have been dealt with at the cross: “Behold the Lamb of God who TAKES AWAY the sins of the world”. The wages of sin, “death” - have been paid and the resurrection of all is secured. Now the business of conformity to the image of Christ continues - based on the judgment of Christ.
“Love is not easily offended… Love keeps no record of wrongs... Love endures all things... Love never fails...” - God is no less loving than this - but infinitely more so!
(BTW - I never meant the passage of punishment to the generations to be taken as referring to future punishments - only that as God reveals himself to Moses He doesn’t say that He is a God who punishes for all eternity - and this was before I knew you were an annihilationist - In that regard - I cannot see how you can get annihilationism from “few stripes and many”?!)
Please remember that not all truth can be contained in Scripture - for some Truths surpass our knowledge - and Paul could only pray for a direct revelation of this for the Ephesians. And it is the full dimensions of the Love of Christ of which he speaks specifically - and grounded in this Paul says God is able (and dare I say willing) to do far above all that we can think or imagine!
I close with this quotation from an old Calvinist (and Westminster Divine) - Peter Sterry - about whom I was shocked to discover that he believed in universal reconciliation by the God of Sovereign Love:
“Dear Soul, whoever, whatever thou art, thou art the Offspring
of God. St. Paul citeth this from a Poet, confirmeth it by a
Divine Testimony, applyeth it Universally to all, maketh it the
ground of Evangelical Truths, and Loves; Acts 17. 28. As some
of your own Poets have said; We are his Off-spring.
St. Paul hath something very like this, Ephes. 3. 9. The Gospel
was hid in God from the Foundation of the World, who made
all things by Jesus Christ.
God had the love of the Gospel in his
Heart, and sowed it as a secret Seed in the Foundations of the
whole Creation, when he made all things by Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is the Seed of Nature, as well as of Grace, and so lieth hid in the Bosom of every Creature, as the true Pearl in the Field.
That Divine Image, of which we spake before, was the similitude only, the Mother of Pearl; This is the Substance, the Pearl itself. In the Off-spring of God is the Seed of God. Where the Seed of God is, there is God himself in the Vertue, Power, and fulness of his Divine Nature. For so the Seed
of every Plant hath that Plant Virtually, and Spiritually in it.
Be now no more unbelieving; but believe. Believe the love, which
God hath to thee. Believe, that all the Inclinations of the Divine
Will are to thee; that the Eye, and heart of God are turned toward
thee in every place, fixt upon thee with all that intention, and force
of Sweetness in the Divine Nature. For why?
He is drawn irresistibly to his own Seed, his own Son, his own self in
thee. Thou art his Off-spring."
Should you chose - you may have to “last word” - I will try and restrain myself with further responses.
I will continue to pray earnestly that both you and I will have this revelation aof Christ’s Love above all - as well as that we should not err nor (and especially) lead others into the same.
Thanks again for the gracious dialog and
May God continue to Bless you!
wayne
Excellent
The smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever... no way around this...
Revelation 14:11
“And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
"and the smoke of their torment doth go up to *ages of ages* " - Youngs Literal Translation
If aionios possibly means "ages" (and I am convinced that in its Greek root meaning, it does) then this opens up new possibilities.
I recommend:
www.mercyuponall.org/?s=aionios
I could rejoinder with several passages that there is "no way around this" when it comes to universal reconciliation (e.g. those that promise the restoration, unification, reconciliation and renewal of ALL things).
The bottom line is: do you really believe that God IS Love? For me, that changed everything...
But there are no "mic drop moments" for either side of this debate... over years of pondering the question of a place of eternal conscious torment - I can no longer believe it (but I DO believe in a "place" where everything in us that is not of loves kind WILL be burned away by the consuming fire of God's Love ❤️)
God bless you beyond imagination!
wayne
@@MrHwaynefair same.i agree
The destruction of Edom is spoken of in Isaiah 34:8-10 as its smoke will go up forever and ever.
No man is able to fully understand God's righteousness. If we say God's righteousness is "perfection", we would try in vain to comprehend God's perfect righteousness. Annihilation appeals to human sensibility and emotions. Leave it to God; He knows what His plan is and He will accomplish it perfectly.
And has Scripture revealed *nothing* of His ultimate goal and plan?
To restore, reunify, reconcile and renew ALL things in creation?
Steve makes no claim or pretension to understand "fully" - he is just questioning what is so often taught as "clearly" Biblical - when it in fact is not. The grandest theological mistake we make (in my opinion) is to divorce His "righteousness" (or justice, or holiness, etc.) from His essence: Love ❤️
God IS Love... (no "ifs", "ands" OR "BUTS" 🤗)
Thanks for your comment!
@@MrHwaynefair
Amen. Just like His righteousness is perfect, His love is perfect. His plan of redemption and His plan of destruction also is perfect: He, all He is, and all He has planned, is perfect.
We are able to know God and His plan to the extent He has revealed it to us in His word. Knowing that God is perfect, we can be confident that His plan for our (believers) glorification will be perfect, and His plan for the unbelievers' station at the "second death" will be perfect, all because our perfect creator has determined it.
Whether God's plan for belivers and unbelievers have equally eternal destinies, in light and in darkness respectively, it is His perfect plan to reconcile "all" things to Himself.
Thanks for your comment -
But I think that maybe what you are saying is different from what I am saying: "God *IS* Love" is a statement about essence - not attributes.
And Love
"keeps no record of wrongs"
"endures all things"
"never fails"
So - Yes! - He *WILL* "reconcile ALL things to Himself" - making PEACE through the cross ❤️
"and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross." - Col.1:20
In view of all of this - I can never - ever accept the "traditional" view that God will punish His enemies for all eternity - Why? Because I KNOW that True Love would/could NEVER do that
And, besides, Jesus told us to LOVE our enemies - Would God (our Father) do less?
Blessings In and Through the Living God, "the Savior of all mankind" (1 Tim. 4:10)
wayne
@@MrHwaynefair
Hi Wayne, and amen re: God's love.
Pauls letter letter (1 Corinthians 13) is addressed to Christians, and in it exhorts believers to show to others the same kind of love God shows toward believers: "to them who love God, to them who are the called according to God's purpose." Romans 8:28.
However, since we all have fallen short of God's standard of perfection, none of us are able to love as perfectly as God loves.
Many who call themselves disciples of Christ affirm and celebrate sinful behaviors, which God has sovereignly determined to be rebellion towards Him. Affirming and celebrating sin and rebellion is not an act of love; it's an act of evil.
God's love is so perfect that He does not affirm sinful deeds and thoughts, but condemns and chastises those who engage in them. To those who reject God's call to turn from sin and believe on the Lord, God's perfect love will give them over to a reprobate mind, be outright rejected by God because they've reoeatedly rejected God's offer of grace and His call to repent and believe; they refuse to ever repent and believe.
Ultimately God proves His love for unrepentant sinners by consigning them after death to a place of complete separation from God, and, in God's word, that place of separation is called: "outer darkness", "eternal fire", "shame and everlasting contempt", "torment and everlastimg destruction", a "lake of burning fire where the wicked are tormented Day and night forever and ever." Those who find themselves eternally separated from God are without excuse.
Wait - you say 1 Cor. 13 shows us how GOD Loves?
THEN you say (in effect):
Love DOES keep a record of wrongs?
Love DOES give up - in the end?
Love DOES fail?
If "God is LOVE" only temporally and conditionally - Then GOD in not forever GOD!
But He IS Love - and cannot be otherwise - this is His ESSENCE.... (this is why the "IS" in "God is love" is SO important - but overlooked!)
That's not the God I worship - I worship the God and Father of ALL - who will not let His prodigal children go - who intervenes with sovereign Love, power and wisdom (even AFTER death!)
He will never give up (just as I would never give up on my on "offspring" (Acts 17))
It is *impossible* to exist apart from God (who IS a Consuming fire!) -"In Him we live and move and have our being" (Acts 17)
PLEASE give time to digging into this ONE word that *changes everything*:
aionios (as translated in Mt.15 as "eternal punishment" - and elsewhere)
Definition: agelong, eternal
Usage: age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.
Ask yourself: WHY DO WE INSIST THAT IT MUST ALWAYS MEAN (and mistranslated) "ETERNAL" (e.g. "eternal punishment")?
No - it lasts for "an age" - and is perfectly just - and comes from 100% PURE Love ❤️
Remember: "you will not get out until you have paid the last penny" - annd "some will be beaten with many stripes - others with few", etc. - And also consider, "kolasis" - translated "punishment" comes from the word for "pruning" - The heart of Love desires our BEST - our GROWTH into Christ-likeness....
PLEASE rethink your idea of "love" - *IT'S NOT BIG ENOUGH MY FRIEND!*
Blessings in Him Who IS "the Savior of ALL mankind"! (1 Tim.4:10)
wayne
Who is the audience of 2 Peter?
May I ask, why you ask?
I.e., how is this question related to the video in question?
Thanks!
@@MrHwaynefair Sure, I ask because I think recognizing the audience in 2 Peter 3:9 would shift how you see the passage. It’s a beautiful passage! I just think a meaning is assumed in the video without looking at it more carefully. That’s all! God bless.
Thanks for the clarification!
While I cannot speak for Steve - here is my take:
It does appear that most NT scholars would say the "audience" is both Jew and Gentile (for what that's worth).
For interpretive reasons - I know that some might say he means ONLY those to whom he has written - not "anyone" in general (or universally).
But (and, of course I am admittedly inclined to think so) I think the simplicity (lack of greater specificity or narrowing) of the grammar should leave the interpretation universally open to include *all* of humanity. Peter could have used a more narrowing language - e.g. "τις ὑμῶν" - like that used of Paul in 1 Cor. 6:1 "If *any of you* has a dispute with another..."
It is (to me) harmonious with 1 Tim. 2 "3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants *all* people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."
I hope this helps -
Blessing!
wayne
P.S. For other passages that seem to gesture towards (if not plainly state) this universal hope - see:
sovereign-love.blog/2023/11/12/scripture-proofs-of-gods-eternal-love-%e2%9d%a4%ef%b8%8f/
@@MrHwaynefair I much appreciate your honesty about your inclinations. I would say that both 2 Peter 3:9 and 1 Timothy 2:4 have more specific meanings that are very convicting if one doesn’t assume a universal atonement from both.
In 1 Timothy 2:4, I know you’ve heard of the argument of categories defining who the “all” is. I see the takeaway from this passage to be “Hey, God desires all kinds of men to be saved, EVEN THOSE IN POWER THAT PERSECUTE YOU”. So, for me, I pray for those in authority over me, to change my own heart towards them. I’m not really good at that, honestly. But, 1 Timothy 2:4 convicts me of it.
And I appreciate your honesty as well - but why not believe in the wideness of His mercy? It is (after all) his Love that surpasses knowledge - and His power that is greater than can be imagined.... (Eph.3:19)
Frankly - if Paul or Peter had intended to limit the scope to "all kinds" - I think they could have made that clear. But I acknowledge the potential ambiguity of the word "all"
But when it comes to "τὰ πάντα" (lit. the all things) - there is far less wiggle-room. And it means nothing less than the "all things" created in, by, for Christ (Colossians 1). And Scripture uses this same phrasing in reference to the restoration, recapitulation, reconciliation and renewal of "all things".
*THAT* - to me - is REAL Sovereignty - and unilateral Victory!
So - as is too disappointingly frequent (for me) - I am baffled by well meaning, intelligent people (including us both) who cannot even seem to agree on the meaning of the simplest Biblical proposition: "God is Love".
Don't get me wrong... as a former Calvinist I still believe in a very real election - but now (from this perspective) I see them as Paul puts it in Romans 11, "first fruits" of the larger "lump" (the full harvest) - and - that if the first fruits are holy (Paul states) the whole lump is holy.
Thank you - it's refreshing to be able to disagree without being polemical ❤️
May God bless you greatly!
wayne
Take God at his word on all things. When God says Eternal punishment he means it.
The Bible - in its original Greek manuscripts - does NOT say "eternal" - it says "aionios" punishment. And, yes, I believe God means it!
BibleHub captures the meaning well:
age-long, and therefore: practically[!] eternal, unending; *partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age* as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.
The root word for aionios is aion:
an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.
God's Word is ultimately and above all the Lord Jesus Christ (John 1) - He is God's FINAL Word - sent by the Father to accomplish His purposes - "that the world through Him might be saved..."
That Word above ALL "words" will NOT return to Him void (Isaiah 55:11) - but will accomplish ALL that He was sent to do.
Blessings!
@@MrHwaynefair we must ask ourselves “is the doctrine there” NOT “is the word there”
For example omnipotent and omniscient are not in the Bible as words however they are there when you look at Gods characteristics. Further the word “Trinity” isn’t in the Bible yet the doctrine is there. Let’s not get too technical when we discuss these things lol
The doctrine of Apokatastasis (the restoration of all things) has been "there" since the writings of the New Testament.
Such chapters as Romans 5, 1 Corinthians 15, Ephesians 1 and (especially) Colossians 1 are examples on which the belief in universal reconciliation are based. It was a major view held by many (it could be argued by most) of the varying doctrinal schools of the first 3 centuries of the Church - Until Augustine came along in his latter years and developed the "doctrine" of eternal conscious torment.
I would encourage you to actually look into it - for example:
(the book) Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years: With Authorities and Extracts by J.W. Hanson. It is available for free here in PDF form:
www.mercyuponall.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Prevailing.pdf
*If you can disprove the argument of this book I will personally reject Historic Christian Universalism*
Blessings in Christ!
wayne
Argument from the defeat of God’s last remaining enemy in 1 Corinthians 15:26
This argument states that after all of God’s enemies are defeated with the defeat of the last enemy, death, leading to God becoming “all in all” over a redeemed creation, no enemies can still exist as such-including human “enemies of the cross” (Phil 3:18)-nor can there be any post-defeat defeat of death in their case anyway. Universalism is ruled out because the Bible links the timing and mode of this defeat of death to the immortalizing resurrection of believers.
According to 1 Corinthians 15:42-55, the believer’s resurrection, when “the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality,” is the moment when death itself is defeated, that is, “swallowed up in victory.”1 This conquest is grounded in the vision of new creation, when there “will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away” (Rev 21:4 cf. Isa 25:8).
But as 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 makes clear, “The last enemy to be destroyed is death” (v26), leaving no more enemies in existence. We are told in this passage that Jesus is right now reigning over “all things,” until he has finally “put all his enemies under his feet” (v25). Only after “destroying every rule and every authority and every power” (v24) does the consummation of salvation history occur, when Jesus submits himself and his rule to God the Father, “that God may be all in all” (1 Cor 15:28 cf. 24). This is precipitated, we are told, by the victory over death demonstrated in the immortalization of believers, which makes them fit for eternal life in the new creation, signaling the destruction of the final enemy, death.
The fact that death is utterly defeated at this point means that it is not subsequently defeated gradually, as unbelievers-who were already resurrected but not made immortal in a victory over death-progressively confess Christ. On universalism, they still remain in mortal corruption, just as they are now. Moreover, since all enemies are destroyed by the time Jesus hands cosmic rule over “all things” to the Father, to have been among the “enemies of the cross” (Phil 3:18) is to have already been destroyed.
Therefore, the mode and timing of the defeat of God’s last remaining enemy in 1 Corinthians 15:26, and the commensurate absence of any enemy in a fully reconciled creation, rules out universalism.
Argument from the rationale for the limited delay of Judgment Day in 2 Peter 3:9
This argument states that since the rationale given in 2 Peter 3:9 is that God is being patient by delaying the day of judgment, “not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance,” this delay expires when judgment day occurs, along with the related opportunity for repentance, thus ruling out universalism.2
In 2 Peter 3, the apostle encourages believers to pursue holiness while “waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God,” the dawning of “the day of eternity” (2 Pet 3:12, 18). This eternal age will fulfil God’s promises of “new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells,” given through the prophets and apostles (2 Pet 3:13 cf. 2-4).3 God is patient rather than slow, and we are to “count the patience of our Lord as salvation” (v15).
The purpose of the delay, then, is so that more may repent and not perish. In theory, the delay could have been indefinite, so that all may eventually repent (universalism) and none may perish-but the logic of the passage indicates that in practice God’s will is more particular and conditional. Paul taught that God “has fixed a day on which he will judge the world” (Acts 17:31). Jesus taught that the day of the Lord would take many by surprise, and would come like a thief in the night (Matt 24:36-44). This is reiterated in Revelation 16:15, and 1 Thessalonians 5:2-4, where like a thief in the night the day of the Lord will overtake those who are in darkness, and “sudden destruction will come upon them . . . they will not escape.” It is also reiterated right here, immediately after Peter explains the delay: “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief . . . ” (2 Pet 3:10).
Therefore, the rationale for a limited postponement of “the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly” (2 Pet 3:7), as given in 2 Peter 3:9, rules out the opportunity for repentance beyond that same event, and hence rules out universalism as well.
@@MrHwaynefair Argument from the “removal” of what cannot “remain” in Hebrews 12:27
This argument states that a crisis of judgment between the present age and the coming age results, according to Hebrews 12:27, in the “removal” of everything that does not belong to the eternal “kingdom that cannot be shaken,” “in order that” everything that does belong “may remain.” Among human beings, only believers belong to the unshakable kingdom; hence, all others are excluded from the age to come, and universalism is ruled out.
Hebrews 12:27 falls within the passage of Hebrews 12:18-29, which draws to a climax an extended discussion that had been building at least since Hebrews 9. We are told there that Jesus appeared “at the end of the ages” to purify and sanctify his people, securing for them an “eternal redemption” for “the promised eternal inheritance” (vv. 26, 12, 15). The earthly tabernacle was a copy and shadow of the true tabernacle in heaven (Heb 8:5 cf. v2; Heb 9:23-24), and Jesus has offered himself as a living sacrifice to gain access to the holy places “in heaven itself” (9:24). But the way is not yet opened to us on earth “as long as the first section is still standing (which is symbolic for the present age)” (9:8). The implication of the present age being a barrier in the cosmic temple, is that the age to come involves full access to God, in a sense uniting the heavens and the earth. The temple access motif is still in play throughout chapter 10, which speaks of “those who draw near” to God, such that without a sacrifice for sins, there is “a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries” (Heb 10:1, 27). It concludes that in approaching God, “we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls” (Heb 10:39). Hebrews 11:1-12:17 is an excursus about that faith and its pursuit of the blessed inheritance.
In this context, Hebrews 12:18-29 describes a cosmic “shaking” event that we recognize as the day of judgment. It is patterned after the terrifying Sinai theophany, “a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest,” when “the LORD had descended on it in fire . . . and the whole mountain trembled greatly” (Heb 12:18; Exod 19:18). The concluding statement from verse 29, “for our God is a consuming fire,” wraps up the references to this awesome historic moment, when the manifest “glory of the LORD was like a consuming fire on top of the mountain” (Exod 24:17). At that time God’s thunderous voice shook the earth, but now there’s been this warning from heaven: “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens” (Heb 12:25-26). There is every suggestion, therefore, that God will shake the heavens and earth in the same way as before, by manifesting his glorious presence and its consuming fire. The passage explains why believers need not be afraid at that time. They belong to an unshakeable kingdom, the heavenly kingdom, so will pass through the judgment crisis unscathed. What does not belong will suffer “removal . . . in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken . . . ” (Heb 12:27-28).
The purpose and timing of this removal, therefore, rules out the subsequent existence of those who do not belong to the eternal kingdom, thus also ruling out universalism.
Bonus: Argument from theophanic infliction of “eternal destruction” in 2 Thessalonians 1:9
There is another argument against universalism that could be simply expressed, but which deserves a more thorough treatment. Indeed, I have already written about it, and would love for you to consider reading this article through, as it presents an important argument for conditionalism, that is simultaneously an argument against other views. Briefly, there is every indication in the context of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 that we are meant to think of “eternal destruction” (which everybody agrees relates to final punishment) as something to occur in the same mode as old testament theophanies (appearances of God). On the day of judgment, Jesus will punish “those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved,” by appearing dramatically “in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance” that issues “from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,” exactly as he will do that day to the figure of the lawless one, whom he “will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming”-an unmistakable reference to theophanic destruction (2 Thess 1:7-9; 2:8-10). We should allow this passage to set its own scene, and not force into it any preconceived notions about eternal destruction supposedly taking place in a separate location we’ve called “hell.” This article, as well as its second part, argue forcefully against that view.
Conclusion
There are some interesting philosophical arguments in favor of universalism, and some biblical passages that do speak of a future time when God will be “all in all,” as creation is no longer infected by any evil. But universalism has a core tenet that may be directly challenged, namely, its assertion that there will be an indefinite opportunity to repent and be saved beyond the day of judgment, into the everlasting age of a new heavens and earth.4 1 Corinthians 15:26, 2 Peter 3:9, and Hebrews 12:27 (as well as 2 Thessalonians 1:9) give good reason to seriously doubt that scenario, if not to reject it outright. Together, they present a picture of a climax to redemptive history in which-through means of those climactic events of resurrection and judgment-nothing and nobody persists beyond that point, should they be judged not to belong to the new creation.
where does Satan go genuine question
Thanks for your question... do you mean "where does Satan go" as in "going" to hell, heaven, the lake of fire?
People who go to hell are not, were not, his children, so God does not feel towards them, like you and I feel towards our children. Bad comparison. And Jesus said, "They will not come to me." He said, "They won't come to me because they prefer to remain in, and sin in darkness." He didn't say, For now, they prefer this. Why is one lifetime too short to look for God, for some people? Is He not able to give each one sufficient opportunity to come to Him, to trust Him, during one lifetime, no matter how short? Also, the problem is not that they need more time. The problem is that they hate God absolutely, and the love themselves and their sins, absolutely. Do you do that? No. Do they? Yes. Hard to believe, isn't it. Yes, it's hard for you to believe because you have never gone this direction.
Are you willing to have a good faith discussion about this? The Bible DOES teach that ALL who bear God's Image ARE His children... And I will tell you where it says this if you want to discuss it with mutual respect.
Is it possible that you have never gone in the "direction" of a Love that surpasses ALL knowledge? The Love that the Father has for His enemies? Are you limiting God - by limiting His Love? Would you ever give up on YOUR children? No - not if your love is real - because Love keeps no record of wrongs, Love endures ALL things, and Love NEVER fails ❤️
Remember: God is not just loving - *God IS Love* (and He cannot be otherwise - for this is His essence).
@@MrHwaynefair Sure. We could start by telling me where the Bible teaches that all who bear His image are His children. I don't think this is in the Bible. I try my best to go "in the direction" of God's love. The most impt topic on earth and heaven. But love doesn't force, and it gives freedom, free will, and image-bearers are his creatures but it's necessary to be born (again, of His Spirit) to be an actual child of His. People get what they want--they want to be born again, His child, they get this. They want to turn away decisively forever, they get that. God, who is love, never gave up on them--they gave up on God. What would you say to that?
Rob - so delighted to get your response and your questions (and observations) offered in good faith!
Your remark about what “the Bible teaches” opens up into many more questions that are deep and profound. There are things the Bible says explicitly - and then there are things the Bible strongly implies. A great example of this is “the Trinity”. One might argue that the Bible nowhere “teaches” anything explicitly called “Trinity” - but those of us who embrace historically “orthodox” Christianity affirm that the eternal Godhead is made up of three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I say that to frame what I will say here about how being made in God’s Image strongly (even inevitably) implies the relation of father to child - and how all of humanity bears this image which is now hidden within each of us - covered over and obscured by our sin and fallenness.
There are several passages that (to me) converge to compel me to this belief (that all who bear God’s image are thereby His children) - i.e. that this is what “the Bible teaches”.
I must confess my embarrassment that (not until my mid to late 60’s) I had never really seen or taken notice of Genesis 5:3, “When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.”
Note that this is the first time the couplet “image” and “likeness” are used after the creation of Adam and Eve (Adam, notably, being himself called a “son of God” in Luke 3:38)
For me it doesn’t take a lot of imagination to “see” the inner logic of how deeply related these concepts are - e.g. it lies behind the old saying, “he’s the spitting image of his father!”
We find the same inner-logic with Jesus as THE Image of God - and Son of God - e.g., Col.1:15, “The SON is the IMAGE of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.” Son - Image - firstborn: they are entangled (I believe) in the mind of Paul.
And (though some want to limit its implication) does not Paul clearly say that God is “the Father of all”?
“one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” - Ephesians 4:6
Just before this (in chapter 3) Paul has stated, “14For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name.”
But for me the “clincher” is Acts 17 (Paul’s sermon to the pagan Athenians has radically altered my theological perspective!)
There Paul says explicitly and unequivocally that the unconverted pagans to whom he was speaking are God’s offspring/children: “‘For we also are His children.’”! He even repeats this twice (apparently for emphasis?)! The New American Standard (1995), Amplified, and International Standard all translate “children” - others “offspring” - but the meaning is inevitably the same.
And then Paul immediately goes on to speak of “image”, and how even in their ignorance the pagans should know better than to think that God is “an image made by human design and skill”. I do not think that the stream of thought from which Paul speaks is merely coincidental - i.e. that speaking of their being “children” then of an “image” of God are unrelated.
I hope that all of this taken together at least opens your mind and heart to see there just is (Biblically) a connection between being made in God’s Image and our being in some very real way God’s children/offspring?
But there is something even deeper going on here: What is this Image? The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus Christ IS the express Image of God. So, for us to be made “IN the Image” of God means (to me) that we ALL bear the very imprint on our Being of Jesus Christ - we all bear (deep within) the very likeness of God’s Son! THIS is why we are so very precious to the Father!
I think Paul alludes to this in his brief but profound remark:
“15But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16to reveal his Son IN me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles” - Gal.1
Note here that Paul is saying (by logical implication) that Christ was hidden in him - I say “hidden” because that is inescapably what the word (translated here) “revealed” must mean: it is “apokalypsai” - which means to UN-cover what is covered or hidden! And don’t miss that Paul is speaking of his state BEFORE he is “born again”. You see, I believe that Christ is “entombed” in the very being of every human being - like a dormant seed awaiting the be “called forth” - like Lazarus from the tomb!
So - I ask: is this what “the Bible teaches”? Or is this some perverse “twisting” of Scripture?
Is this not the Truth beneath the story of “the prodigal son’? Is this story not universal in its application to ALL who are “lost” (the word literally means “destroyed”!)? And yet - no matter how far the willful son wanders from the Love of the Father, he is STILL a son - he cannot escape the very DNA of his being - of his father! But - finally - one day “he came to himself” - he awoke to his TRUE identity, and returned home to his Father!
Finally - you say that “love doesn’t force”. Really? Think about it…. As a father of four (now adult) children - I OFTEN “forced” them to do things BECAUSE I loved them! But I did so with a view toward their maturity - that one day my purpose for them was to be responsible, mature adults who FREELY reflected the Love of their Father in heaven in thought, word and deed.
And even if they had been young adults who had been seduced by the world (for example - if they had gotten addicted to meth) - would I just say, “Oh well - they made their choice…”? NO! I would do an intervention - again and again if needed… And if they decided to throw themselves into a burning building while under the influence of drugs - would I not stop them? Of course I would!
The God who IS Love never, ever gives up on His children! “Love endures ALL things… Love NEVER fails…”. Will God get what He desires and wants - what He “wills”? Will “thy will be done” finally be answered? I have no doubt that - in the end - He will! Ane what is His will? “That none should perish” (2 Pet.3:9) but “that ALL should be saved” (1 Tim.2:4).
God sent His Logos/Word into the world NOT “to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.” - John 3:17
WILL HIS WORD FAIL? “So shall My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.” Isaiah 55:11
I admit it - my heart screams “YES!” at the prospect that the ultimate ending of this “story” is [almost] “too good to be true”! But I cannot unsee what I now see so profoundly clear and plain in Scripture:
The RESTORATION of ALL things - Acts 3:21
The RECAPITULATION of ALL things - Ephesians 1:10
The RECONCILATION of ALL things - Colossians 1:20
The RENEWAL of ALL things - Revelation 21:5
Yes! There IS a very real “Hell” - and I believe it is the manifestation of the God who is BOTH “a consuming fire” - and who IS LOVE. Through this fire of God’s LOVING judgment every child who bears His image will eventually (perhaps after a very long time for some) come to the place where their knees will WILLINGLY bow - and their tongues GLADLY confess, “Jesus IS Lord” - to the Glory of God THE FATHER!
I certainly affirm our “free” moral agency - and that God is not a puppeteer! But there is NO scripture that teaches that “we turn away decisively” in such a way that places us outside the power of a Love that surpasses knowledge and imagination.
Always remember Jesus response to the question: “Who then CAN be saved?”…. “With God ALL things are possible”!
YES, we must be “born again”! But our first birth is what lays the groundwork of the second birth - our creation in His image (“fearfully and wonderfully made”!) plants in us that dormant “seed” - which must be “hydrated”, if you will, by the Holy Spirit to bring this hidden image alive into its intended goal: eternal life and fruitfulness - conformed to the image of THE Image: God’s Son!
I BEG you to read this(link at the bottom of this "comment") : because to me there is no better illustration outside of Scripture that illustrates our plight - our true condition: we are not just morally neutral beings who randomly decide for or against God - No! We are God’s children who have (since Eden) been kidnapped - taken into a slavery to Satan through deception and blindness - taken captive to do HIS will - but our TRUE, created nature is deeper than our temporal “fallen” nature!
May God Bless You Abundantly!
wayne
open.substack.com/pub/waynefair/p/is-free-will-a-myth?r=oev2h&
I love Steve Gregg, however it is dangerous to judge God's character by our standards..this is how we get away from truth...I fall on the side of anialation in Lake of Fire....trusting that the Lord gives everyone the proper time to repent...many chose the wide path...we part ways on salvation from hell....but its not essential to my walk...so I could change my view
I deeply appreciate your comment - even your "push back", refreshingly offered in love and good faith!
Let me (very) briefly respond here - and assure you that I am here for you should you like to enter into further dialogue (even a one on one zoom chat should you be interested)
[Please forgive typos and incomplete sentences - I wanted to get this off to you before going to church this morning!]
There are two fundamental, foundational and inescapable Truths to this Biblical perspective (Historic Christian Universalism):
FIRST -
For me the most simple yet most revelatory statement in all of Scripture:
God IS Love.
Why are we so quick to add a qualifying "BUT" after these words?
And, if God IS Love in God's very Triune essence, how can God AS Love be anything LESS than the Love that is described to be in 1 Cor.13?
For example:
Love is OTHER centered, "It seeks not its own"
Love keeps NO record of wrongs (in agreement with 2 Cor.5, [God HAS reconciled the world] "not counting men's sins against them..."
Love believes and hopes ALL things
Love endures ALL things
Love NEVER fails...
SECOND -
We ALL - everyone who bears His Image (see Gen5:3) - are His children! (Acts 17)
That means we are ALL - even before and apart from repentance - still in relationship with our Father - we are just estranged - we are ALL prodigals...
But what happens? "He came TO HIMSELF"...and returned home to his father!
Where does Scripture tell us there is no repentance after death?
Usually the passage is cited, "It is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgment"
There are at least a few problems with concluding that this forecloses on "post mortem repentance":
1. It never says of implies that there can be NO repentance after death!
2. Even it's assertion cannot be taken as utterly "absolute" - e.g. we know that many died twice! (e.g. Lazarus and others Jesus raised from the dead)
Furthermore - one should be open to consider that in Jonah's case - there was death in the belly of that fish - AND genuine repentance - then his "resurrection" to continue his prophetic mission to Nineveh.
3. Peter seems to at least open up possibilities - and I am not drawing dogmatic conclusions here - but offering observations that at the least imply the possibility that there have been those who have died - THEN heard the Gospel, and were saved!
See 1 Peter 3:19 - then 4:6
You are correct - we cannot judge God's character by our standards. Where we see and recognize "Goodness" and "Love" - we should intuitively know that He is infinitely HIGHER - that He is MAXIMALLY Good - MAXIMALLY love!
BUT - and this is very critical - can we NOT recognize what is good and right and loving? I think we allow ourselves to think that a thing can be "Good" for God when it obviously EVIL for us (at least for me it was the case as a Calvinist)...
This is called "equivocation" - and means that words become meaningless...
For example if I had 12 children and everyone observed how loving I was towards them - but what if I had a 13th child whom I had bound and tortured every night in my basement - for the rest of their lives? Who would not call that evil - and how would that not cast at the least a shadow across my character?
Jesus said these remarkable words: "Judge for yourselves what is right!"
And he said, "If you then being evil know how to give good gifts to your children - HOW MUCH MORE your heavenly Father!"
Many passages (taken literally) promise that the Salvation Christ brings will be
unilaterally Victorious!
See especially Romans 5, 1 Cor. 15 (I will add a link below to many passages that point us in this direction)
Scripture promises:
The Restoration of ALL things (Acts 3)
The Recapitulation of ALL things (Eph.1)
The Reconciliation of ALL things (Col.1)
The Renewal of ALL things (Rev. 21)
Finally - what began to seriously open me to this historic and scriptural perspective was one word: Aionios - translated "eternal" in most translation (but not all!)
Just consider this definition from BibleHub (NOT a Christian Universalist site!)
"age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting."
And "Olam" (also translated "eternal" in the OT):
"long duration, antiquity, futurity"
THIS SHOCKED AND ASTONISHED ME NEARLY 15 YEARS AGO! IT SHOULD GIVE EVERY BIBLE-BELIEVING CHRISTIAN PAUSE TO RE-THINK THE "DOCTRINE" OF "ETERNAL" PUNISHMENT!
If you are open to chat - just let me know...
Richest Blessing in Your Ministry!
wayne
waynefair.substack.com/p/scripture-proofs-of-gods-eternal-love
@MrHwaynefair this is a lot I will reply..thank you...I do not believe in eternal punishment...I am Anihilationist
@MrHwaynefair in Ephesians 1 I don't see the verbiage in my Bible...please explain
@MrHwaynefair OK...here we go.
Yes all are reconciled to God because of Jesus...at our birth...then we sin..at that point we need to be born again..
This happens during ones life.
# Though, in a sense, all are His children by creation...this is not truly relationship...we are only "adopted" into His family by faith...not by birth...we must listen to and obey Him to be His..."if any Love Me, they will obey me"
I do not know if one can repent after they are judged and thrown into the Lake of Fire....it could be possible...but I wouldn't risk it, or tell others to...
Even if they could be refined and saved from hell..they still suffer ..God does that...
No, I don't think we can judge what is right when it comes to God...look at the book of Joshua...God tells them to kill everyone, even babies and livestock..."happy is the one who dashes infants on a rock" Psalm 137:9...This to us could never be right?!?
The verse that you use for renewal and such of all things...this could include creatures, but I think it means heaven and earth...this will happen after they are all destroyed, with a fervent heat....
If all things do include Satan and demons, then I suppose they will be saved also??
Eternal can mean a very long time...the wors forever is similar...I belive it means 'past the vanishing point" which is beyond our ability to see how long.
But it also means eternal..
As in the forever/eternal kingdom.
And the fact that pur glorified bodies will be eternal...our very souls are eternal in Him.
I do not believe ineternal punishment.
I am a Anihilationist . But not because I think it just or right...but because it is biblical and historical...Edward Fudge ..the Fire that Consumes..though I do believe it is just.
This is not an essential doctrine..
So I an not stuck on it.
The bottom line is that some do not want to be reconciled.. no matter how long the punishment, read The Great Divorce by CS Lewis..its a great take
Sorry - not sure what verbiage you are referring to?
Maybe? "10to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment-to bring *UNITY* to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ."
ἀνακεφαλαιώσασθαι (anakephalaiōsasthai)
Verb - Aorist Infinitive Middle
Strong's 346: To sum up, summarize, *recapitulate* , gather up in one. From ana and kephalaioo; to sum up.
deep waters
Deep calls to deep...
Rev 14:9-11
Thanks for you "comment" -
But please realize that anyone can quote passages to shore up their "side" of this issue... The question remains, "Who do YOU say that I am?"
Is the God who IS Love going to eventually hate HIS enemies - when He has commanded us to love ours? Don't get me wrong - I believe in a hell after death for many. But is it the "final word"? I don't think so - and there are MANY passages that give me this hope...
Blessings in Christ!
th-cam.com/video/lsUYBZyuJPE/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/DG5Fplb0_Q0/w-d-xo.html
*"Are the Claims of Christian Universalism Possibly ... True?"* Not to put too sharp a point on it but...no, there is no possible way that they are true.
"No possible way"? How are you SO sure? Many great theologians have disagreed with you (e.g., Gregory of Nyssa being one)
The Bible tells us otherwise - and gives us the great hope that not only does God desire that all be saved - but that His Word (Jesus Christ) will not return to Him void - and he did NOT come to condemn the world - but that the world will be saved through Him.
Do these passages (for instance) give you NO pause?
1. whom heaven must keep until the time for the [complete] restoration of all things about which God promised through the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. - Acts 3:21
2. to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment-to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. - Eph.1:10
3. and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. - Col.1:20
4. Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.” - Rev.21:5
7 minutes in and the Bible hasn't been opened once.... Troubling... Hopefully it turns around...
Throughout the video Steve quotes from scripture - he just doesn't mention chapter and verse...
e.g. 00:57 seconds in "God is not willing that any should perish", etc. If you are not open to the possibility that God genuinely wants all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth - your probably wasting your time here (on this channel) - Otherwise please stay and spend some time exploring...
Bessings!
The Bible was all over his message. This message is the true message of Christ who did everything for us. Your faith is very much need in the world we live in, but it does not save your soul. Only Christ can do that.