👍👍👍 unfortunately I think those working on the US side for the prisoner releases have got sucked into the whole notion of ‘romantic suffering’, which is a particular weakness of the Russian intelligencia.
@@SiliconCurtain No! The families, people connected to the hostages lobby the President and he gives a crap! We have healthy empathy, whereas RU has zero! They don't care for their own citizens! RU has sent back dead POWs without their organs!!
Thank you so much for this eye opening discussion! As a Brazilian that fully supports Ukrainian victory and complete Russia’s defeat, there are severe limitations on which details I am able to catch in situations like these so, again, thank you for educating me on the details. Slava Ukraini 🇺🇦
It came to me as no surprise that the first message our liberals sent to the world was to lift the sanctions off Russia. What they have in common with Putin (and with the majority of ethnic russians) is the notorious russian imperialist mindset. They are just like Putin in so many ways and are equally dangerous for the free world in a “sheep-in-a-wolf’s-clothing” kind of way. Never trust russian liberal opposition.
Volodymyr Zolkin has years worth, many hundrds of completely accssible interviews with "everyday Russians" who are not against the war. Is returned prisoners activists should be asked at every opportunity whether they have watched hundreds of these interviews. They must be asked to comment on Zoin's BRILLIANT body of work. It's just as important as asking them to comment on of the body of work of a Russian novelist. In fact, I'm a bit disappointed that you didn't bring him up in this discussion. Also, what do they think about all that Russian money being given to Ukraine for their military and rebuilding efforts? They need to be asked that every time as well. Do they think that money should go back to the wonderful Russian people they love so much? One last point: it's absolutely essential that we witnessed a public debate between Ilya Ponomarev -and other Russians who agree with him- and these returned russophiles. I hope you will schedule one! Last but not least,You guys are all "totally awesome"!
Thanks Jonathan. Mr Sumlenny was very eloquent. As he said, it was not an exchange - it was paying a ransom for hostages by freeing FSB criminals. We might come to consider this as an error. Western governments should be clear that they will not do this again and their citizens should not expose them selves to risk of being taken as hostages by travel to Russia. Semlenny makes good points that well-known opposition figures have been helped before the ordinary Ukrainian children abducted by the Kremlin, and that the Moscow opposition has a vested interest in maintaining Moscow's empire so they have an imperial bias. The West should be very cautious about listening to them. I suspect that the culture of passive-aggressive victimhood and Moscow-centrism permeates Moscow culture so much that the 'opposition' are infused with it, even while outside Putin's lands, which means their views are distorted by it. Frankly, at the moment they are irrelevant and merit little attention. Ukraine trying to improve its defences after 2014 is not comparable with Russia's vast stockpiling of arms, including those taken over from the USSR. Vlad Vexler commented yesterday that we should not view politics as an identity issue requiring 'purity' of thought, and learn to accept that others say and think things we disagree with. Vlad suggested a possible political line the opposition could take but I think that line would not work now or indeed for years. So I try to consider their comments without casting the Russian 'opposition' into the outer darkness. The opposition is not political, so is failing now in practical politics. It may be unreasonable to expect anyone to have fully developed strategies just after being released, after years of manipulation by the FSB. Maybe their views will evolve after they reflect further, and then merit serious consideration. But, if the freed opposition figures believe that the people of Russia have no responsibility, so should be sheltered somehow, then the opposition are endorsing the non-political avoidance by the mass of the population. We have seen very little sign of popular protest against the war and all polls indicate widespread passive endorsement of the war. At the moment, the Kremlin can recruit soldiers with financial incentives so people are volunteering actively to participate.
Even suggesting there should be a question mark over Ukraine improving its defenses while fighting an ongoing defensive war against Russian aggression is playing the game by kremlin rules. It was Russia that used the Minsk agreements to rearm and continue the war. Not Ukraine.
He can get hunderts hostages when he wants, thousands of western citizens travel regularly to Russia or still live there. Are we going to do the same again and again? Send FSB agents back home in exchange for Russian citizen which were captured without reason or foreigners, which dunno smoked a joint and got 10 years gulag for that?
One of the best episodes you've done. Great guests excellent subjects and excellent questions... Thank you Jonathan 😊 Ukraine will win. Slava Ukraine 🇺🇦 ♥️
@@user-jp4lt7xu2g 6 months old account, 57 disparaging/aggressive comments on this channel...it's so obvious, you're a troll. Do you really have nothing better to do with your life than spreading lies and propaganda?
@@user-jp4lt7xu2gAs, clearly, do you my friend. Since precisely when were we supposed to give credence to anything that the Kremlin, the FSB, or more to the point Putin, promotes? In over 60 years I cannot remember many of their statements or undertakings that proved to have an ounce of veracity when held up for inspection against the facts.
@@user-jp4lt7xu2g u have the hallmark style of zero-imagination which usually means cheaply-paid ru-troll (how's life in a shit-hole place going for u? And what does it feel like to have to hide your name, like a rodent crawling around the internet?)
Operator Starsky said some interesting stuff yesterday, that made sense regarding Kara-Murza’s statements about sanctions, based upon his own interactions with fellow Ukrainian soldiers who he knew well prior to them spending time in Russian captivity. It certainly bolsters the point that they were fed a rich diet of misinformation whist incarcerated.
Well KaraMurza's wife was touring Europe and the US and constantly repeating how "innocent" russians should not face sanctions. She was never detained to be brainwashed. This is russian mentality, always play victim, take no responsibility.
@@ginniemess This, plus they think that everyone owes them everything, while they don't owe anything to anyone. For someone who was freed against his will, Yashin seemed very jubilant on the airplane before he decided to play up to his russian audience.
@@nancyflorida9863 you have no idea, you are not in their position. Even if it were logically sound to only sanction Putin et al it remains practically impossible. Kara-Murza et al know this. Putin has put the entire country in service of the war. But we have to remember Kara-Murza et al are speaking to two audiences. Like Navalny they need to gain favor, trust and respect of other compatriots to overcome fear of Putin. It's basically geopolitical "good cop/bad cop" I think it is an important part of waking up people so they realize their collective power is greater than Putin’s regime and they needn't remain passively nor actively complicit. Remember they also called Putin a murderer and usurper and repeatedly denied his legitimacy while in and out of captivity. Let's be a little more capable of nuance. These guys are capable of incredible nuance after years of torture and abuse and poisoning.
@@ayoungethan You insult my knowledge and then you try to educate me through a word salad. Try harder, vatnik. I understand them without a need for a translation. You sound like an apologist for impotent useless russian opposition.
Gentlemen, you are doing outstanding job ,fighting on information front for Ukraine, which is not a single time less important than actual battlefield. Big THANKS and appreciation from AFU soldier !
As a Ukrainian i understand why Russian opposition does not vocalize their full support for Ukraine and condemnation of Z-ideology. If they would do so it would immediately cross out any possibility of political career. Overwhelming majority of Russian internal opposition is still pro-war. Only those who were born in USSR could fully understand this mentality and my English is too poor to try and explain it. They just feel good when their country is at war with someone. It distracts them from everyday problems.
They do not have almost any backup anyways. Most russians from provincies will suport only bloody wankers. They take freedom, democracy as evil thing. At same time due national mentality they blame any other country for any failure. They never regret or excuse for anything they did. So freedom and liberalism ideas have no future in russia.
Thank you, Jonathan, for such a insightful discussion. Sergej nails it, discussing how Russian dissidents are no friends of Ukraine, and how taboo any support of a Ukrainian victory is.
Excellent guests, again. Brilliant host, as ever. Thanks for centering Ukrainian perspective (as it is the innocent party that is defending itself against russia's illegal aggression) and not falling for bothsideism. So rare these days! Would love to see both guests appear here more often & individually.
yes but as an american myself, we can only tell them to keep the faith if the only military that can actually assist them ultimately, ours, is in active training ourselves as well as them, for a potential coming series of battles that will likel do some degree of demilitarization of RU. We americans are the ONLY backstop militarily, in case anyone here still doesn't know what the european capabilties.
Thank you SC for building our cognitive resilience with these great speakers, who decode what has gone on behind the scenes leading to the released prisoners' comments.
I had to listen to this episode twice. I feel disguisted and sad at the same time. Sad because it confirms there is little to hope for from the Russian opposition. It also tells us that there is no other way forward other than ensuring a victory for Ukraine. Hoping that opposition and/or regime change would free Ukraine without military strength forcing it, is just hoping for the impossible.
Unfortunately, by some reasons the hosts chose to distort what the Russians said. Basically they are calling for Europe not to build the Iron curtain, Putin does it in his own interests, so why to help him? If Russians don't have access to information maybe it'd better for Europe to help them? If they don't want to fight against Ukrain, may be it's reasonable to let them get out if Russua?
@@pavelsharkov5893how long does the war last? hint: it didn't start 2022. If so-called 'ordinary russians' did not find ways to get their unbiased information in 10 years, they are ignorant by choice, as the majority of Germans were during third reich
Thank you for the clarification. What a bizarre situation. Literally an fsb virus has been unleashed in the guise of a prisoner exchange. May the truth win out..Слава Україні
The late Ukrainian dissident and former RU army general Perto Grigorenko (who had singlehandedly defended Crimean Tarars and was kept in a psychiatric prison for that) has written a book whose tille summarizes the spirit of RU opposition: "In the underground, one meets only rats".
@@RadomDude-t2w I am from Germany i blame our german politicians. There is a quote "Wandel durch Handel"... This basically means good economic relationship will change politics and make countries come closer. Putin is a soviet KGB and Germany politicians thought he can be changed to a better man through economics
Insightful conversation! ❤ I agree with the extremely lopsided exchange of prisoners. Hostages versus Russian murderers, cyber criminals and real spies. German prisons are designed to treat prisoners humanely and replicate the outside community, unlike a Russian gulag. Prisoners in Germany often have their own rooms, private bathrooms and phones. Correctional Officers knock before entering cells. US citizen Marc Fogel, arrested in 2021 for possessing medical Marijuana for back pain is deteriorating in the gulag, his sister said. Taken to a Russian prison hospital and being injected with who knows what. Fogel taught English in Russia for 10 years, but doesn't speak Russian. 😔 Russia has become a hostage taking country like Iran, China and N Korea. Wonder if Russia will start taking Diplomats hostage, as Iran did, for 444 days during US President Jimmy Carter's administration.
I cannot believe that Kara-Murza said the sanctions should be relaxed to help the Russian people. That's unacceptable. I want to hear Bill Browder justify that ridiculous statement. Here's your hero, Bill. Go Ukraine! 🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦 Ignore traitors like Kara-Murza.
Its good cop / bad cop political theater. It means the sanctions are working and KM et al need the favor of fellow Muscovites to depose Putin and restore freedom of expression and make politocal dissent legal again. Calling for more hurt does not do them any political favors and plays into Putin's narrative that they are paid stooges of the West. They are casting doubt on that narrative. My god the West is so completely and utterly naive.
Thank you for the conversation. I am from Poland and I thought that I am alone with feelings that this prison exchange was horrible mistake but fortunately not. These three interviews are shocking and disgusting. In turnout to be that such thing as good Russian does not exist. Slava Ukraini 🇵🇱🇺🇦
They do exist - they're the ones fighting on the field with Ukraine, the ones giving intel to the GUR, the ones that "accidentally" set fire to strategic objectives. But the loud, "liberal" Russians, concerned with an easier life in the EU? Nah, they're not what we're looking for.
Good stuff again. Love this channel for looking at oblique angles! I agree Moscow will always win any bargain, it’s their MO. They don’t do compromise like us. They have to get more out of it than you. Like a pawnshop psychology applied to foreign policy.
Excellent. Knowledgeable Guests. Great to hear Ukraine's perspective openly discussed & believed. If only the West would listen better to Ukraine & Eastern Europeans. Trump congratulated Putin for his excellent exchange deal during his speech yesterday- no one responded. Finally!
THANK U jONATHON FOR THIS PARTICULAR VID!! THIS is, so far, the capstone vid, it has the most salient elements of the whole problem w/ Ru. I was already familiar somewhat with Stephen's utterly unprecedented work and writing, and so pleased to hear him and Sergej here, who actually has some of THE best insights i've seen from either a ru or a ukr, ever. So happy to hear any continuation of this theme/s
Have listened again to the interview with the three freed hostages including Kara Mursa...just one word (again) appalled. Thank you for your superb feed again.
one more point- Please watch Kara-Murza closely in the press conference. In Russian, he seems at first believable, but watch when he switches to his (extremely fluent) English, and tells the tale of how he refused to sign the documents. Am I the only one who felt that he was lying through his teeth? All kinds of subtle facial and body language signals flared up, and he suddenly came across as untrustworthy. Watch it. I very much doubt their tales of bravery and refusal to sign anything. As Kara-Murza mentioned, families are threatened, and I have no doubt they are under instructions to deliver on certain committments.,,,or...as with Navalny, family members will suffer, or even Krasikov can be sent back by Putin , to deal with them
@@SiliconCurtain for them it was a mistake for us it is enlightening. They may become more understanding and we in that process might understand how to convince other russians, but for now they did a good job showing how russians tick and why this war will not end from within russia.
Common Russian people support the war or are compliant. I have a distant relative who was born, grew up and lived in Eastern Ukraine till her 20's when she married a Russian and moved to Moscow. Her mother, father, and brother are all internationally displaced in Ukraine. When I asked her what they are going to do if her husband is sent to fight in Ukraine, she told they were getting ready buying necessary kits etc, and "I'm not interested in politics".
That's such a standard line. When my friends in the US tell me they aren't " interested in politics" I tell them, that's a shame because " politics is interested in every aspect of your life".
@@lindakelley2676 i usually tell "even if you aren't interested in politics, it's interested in you, and you may not like the result, but it's gonna be too late for you to change it"
Well, you should understand that there is a lot of propaganda in Russia. People who are more naive believe it. I personally know plenty of people who oppose this war.
Great clear-eyed discussion by all three speakers, Jonathan, Sergei, Stephen. There really is no substitute for a catastrophic defeat for Russia in its war against Ukraine. Defeat could catalyse systemic changes within Russia: future generation of Russians would be freed from the national curse that dooms them to sacrifice themselves for imperial wars. Most disappointed in Kara-Murza.
Hi Johnathan....please reach out to our friend Konstantin. He seems to be genuinely depressed since the release of the Russian dissidents. I'm thinking there may be a possible opportunity for Ukraine to arrange a home for the true dissidents that have dedicated themselves to enlightenment of those outside Russia to the propaganda machine which is Russia. It could be a win win for both.
Let me provide some historical context for you. Iliya Yashin is most likely a KGB/GSB officer, he has proven to be part of Kremlin information war long time ago. When Nemtsov was killed, Yashin went to Chechnya and gave a mock press-conference to put pressure on Kadyrov, kind of accusing him indirectly of killing Nemtsov. And we all know that Nemtsov was killed by Putin, and Kadyrov was only used as an escape goat to diffuse the whole tension around this horrible murder. So, Yashin played Putin's game in this case, and he was not even arrested in Chechnya, which shows that he was protected from high offices. Further, Yashin never supported Russian volunteers who support Ukrainian army and he was always against any armed confrontation against Kremlin.
Oh, and he also worked in the recruitment committee in one of the Moscow voenkomat's, but not just any , specifically one that was famous for recruiting mercenaries to fight as russian proxies in Donbass.
@@TheCouchCommando I think so, yes. He has been very inconsistent in his “opposition” to Kremlin, while being allowed to remain in the country when others were killed or imprisoned
It is fascinating just how much “you know” and “we know” and also “everyone knows”. Why do we need Jon or anyone else to discuss what is happening, to introduce new information from a variety of voices? “We already know” everything. And if we are not sure we can pretend we are. It’s all so good. TY for the historical context. Can you share a link?
@@georgine321 Listening to multiple experts is always great to test your knowledge and memory, but not every expert will know everything. There are people who are not public and not on social media who are experts on Russia and Russian aggression, like myself. If you are looking for links then you need to do your own homework, I did mine 😁
I'm from Europe. Thanks to the fact that Russia stopped supplying gas to Europe, energy prices rose. Many bakeries, butchers and glassworks went bankrupt. None of us started that war and despite that we are suffering thanks to Russian imperialism. I don't have much understanding of the cries and cries that the poor Russian people are suffering from unjust sanctions.
Thank You for this talk!!! Millions of people in west should hear IT! Thank You!!!!!!! This are exact description what is going on!!! Please promote this video!!!
Doubt released Russian dissidents have had time to take in their new reality so I doubt they would have an informed decision about the situation beyond Russia.
Exactly the immediate press conference was such a poor idea, and another error of judgement. They are not only badly informed about changes external to Russia and in Ukraine, but in Russia itself too. In fact their view of reality has been purposely distorted by Putin - the ‘hostage taker’
Thank you, Jonathan, for inviting Sergej Sumlenny and Stephen Douglas to discuss the "exchange". Very good conversation. Thank you, Sergej, for being such a strong voice, you are one of the very rare "good" Russian to me. Thank you, Stephen Douglas, for your dedication. I hope, you will come together again soon on Silicon Curtain. 🇺🇦 Перемоги та миру всім українцям! 🇺🇦
Finally! I hear voices of some reasonable people. I was listening other media and they are all pee their pants from excitement about this "Russian opposition"
Sergej you nailed it! You are the best! I saw the press conference and I immediately hoped that you would do an analysis 👍Please also do an analysis on your channel! Love and Greetings from the southwest of Germany ❤
The release of these political prisoners is fresh.. these people haven’t caught their breath yet. I haven’t seen the interviews but I’m betting that the experience of these ex prisoners must have been terrifying & they may even have been threatened by FSB/Putin’s thugs that even if they are released, they can still be gotten to and eliminated for good. Perhaps imprisonment has changed their values to ‘me/my family first, at all costs’ 🤷♀️
Thank you Rick, Mods, for this Free Azov stream. Your interviewing of the people on the sidewalk provides fascinating insight. Slava Ukraini, Free AZOV, Return the Children, Crimea is Ukraine, RGTFO and VPDFO. Heroyam Slava
Gary is well hidden imperialist too. Not once he was speaking on side of russian imperialism. He never publicaly spoke of crimes of russia or soviet union. He was saying about freedom somthing but never made excuse or named real problem.
Tremendously important interview! The question is surely raised to how much the West takes Ukraine's position and concerns seriously? Jake Sullivan is an example, crying on live TV, did he cry when the children's hospital was hit? One small thing, I disagree about Sergej's comment on Baerbock, I believe she really gets it concerning Ukraine but Scholz (the coward) as Chancellor has very strong executive powers and basically overrides dissent.
Mark Galeotti in his podcast today has come out in support of their calls for reducing sanctions. Maybe time to get him on again. Ff you do you can also ask why he is so keen on belittling those from the Baltics and eastern Europe who see russia as an immediate military threat
Because Russia is not an immediate military threat? I'm from Baltics, from Latvia, and while Russia is a constant threat, it definitely is not an immediate military threat right now. There is simply no military resource left in Russia to be a threat to anyone, much less a NATO country, right now.
I think the Baltic states are pushing the immediacy of the threat as they know it will take YEARS for the rest of Europe to catch on and actually start to build their own capabilities and stockpiles.
@@ginniemess Romanian here - Russian drones keep crashing on our land for more than a year now, and our army can't shoot them down because we (still) don't have the legal framework to do so. My grandparents were "moved" from their ancestral lands in Moldova by the Russians. I fully realize the threat and can't express my feelings without getting banned on YT. But... He's right. "right now" Russia's military capability is a fraction of what it was, and it will take them at least 5-6 years to rebuild capacity to a level that could threaten a NATO country, and that's assuming they somehow manage to maintain the crazy military spending they have right now. (iirc, something like 1/3 of the budget) The removal of sanctions talk is beyond stupid, however. It's based on this fantasy that "oh, if we give ordinary russians everything on a silver platter, they'll reject Putin!". This has been tried before in the 90s, when Russia received so much aid compared to the rest of eastern bloc, and yet they STILL chose their imperial past.
Concerning the exchange...it is not weakness to put people first. That is being misinterpreted by Russia and used, yes, but it is not weakness to save the innocent and surrender the guilty to their fate and own decisions. Russia exchanged good people and received only scumbags. We must keep our highest values in all exchanges. Some things just are not political equations.
Having the vid not viewed in full yet - how must it feel to not fearing death - and at a moment just to speak out your thinkings full free? Wow. Thanks from Germany.
«…Браты мае, мужыкі родныя. З-пад шыбеніцы маскоўскай прыходзіць мне да вас пісаці, і, можа, раз астатні. Горка пакінуць зямельку родную і цябе, дарагі мой народзе. Грудзі застогнуць, забаліць сэрца, - но не жаль згінуць за тваю праўду… Няма ш, браткі, большага шчасця на гэтым свеце, як калі чалавек у галаве мае розум і науку… Но як дзень з ноччу не ходзіць разам, так не ідзе разам наука праўдзіва з няволяй маскоўскай. Дапокуль яна ў нас будзе, у нас нічога не будзе, не будзе праўды, багацтва і ніякай наукі, - адно намі, як скацінай, варочаць будуць не для дабра, но на пагібель нашу… Бо я табе з-пад шыбеніцы кажу, Народзе, што тагды толькі зажывеш шчасліва, калі над табою Маскаля ўжэ не будзе. Твой слуга Яська-гаспадар з-пад Вільні»
👍👍👍🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦 it was my instant reaction to hearing the press conference. Especially as I’ve listened to these three extensively before they were arrested, and felt there was something substantial different and weird about some of what they were saying now.
This is why I was never a very big fan of Navalny. It was great that he was against the oligarchy corruption, but at his core, he was just another Christian nationalist.
Grat. Finally some people started to understand that all russians are the same, they all want to remain as an empire, either their for or against putin
How can it be a surprise that the Russian political dissention doesn't exactly align with Western thought on the war in Ukraine? (Vladimir Kara-Morza is unquestionably a brave man, but I disagree with him on numerous issues and he's going to experience immense, widespread pushback regarding a number of his views.)
It's a surprise because western media created a certain imagine for Yashin and KM, which is based solely on the few aspects of their ideology that are compatible with western ideals and goals. The rest... well, that will be an interesting string of "surprises".
Hello Jonathan! First of all, I want to thank you for all the work you've done to bring Ukrainian voices to the public ear. And congratulations on the success of this podcast - it's a great resource, and although I'm a person who follows the war obsessively and who lived in Ukraine myself for a few years, I've learned some things through listening. So well done 🙂 Please bear all that in mind when I say what I'm about to say (if indeed you decide to read it - I understand that a post as long as this one can put people off). So ... I was a little surprised to hear some of the things you said on this episode, especially on the question of culpability. I think it's absolutely fair that, when your country gets bombarded and civilians are killed and tortured in huge numbers, you don't want to hear the messages of people like Andrei Pivovarov and Vladimir Kara-Murza, pleading sympathy for people inside the aggressor state. So there's no reason at all to expect a Ukrainian person (e.g. your guest Sergej) to have any sympathy for the view that not all Russians are culpable for this war. However, you yourself are in a slightly different position to that, Jonathan. I feel like just a little more restraint might have been a good idea here - not so much out of fairness to Russians, but just to preserve your own status as one who's reporting honestly and scrupulously. We know the question of collective culpability is an extremely complex one. Almost a century after the Holocaust began, scholars *still* debate the collective culpability of the German people. That's because it's a very difficult thing to establish. Obviously this doesn't mean that discussing the collective responsibility of Russians in 2024 should be off limits - it's totally fine to discuss it, of course. I'm only saying that I think taking too firm a stance on it at this stage kind of ignores the complicated nature of the issue. At this point, it seems to me we *just don't know* what level of support exists for the war inside Russia. We do get indications here and there, and there are certainly zealots in Russia whose opinions are utterly repulsive. But how numerous are they? And what does everyone else think? Polls are unreliable, and people generally don't want to express critical views on camera. These are both characteristics of totalitarian societies, where 'public opinion' as we know it arguably doesn't exist. Besides which, a lot of people's views are inevitably somewhat tainted by *decades* of demonisation (of Ukrainians, of Crimean Tatars, and of The West, which they're constantly told they're at war with). This is unfortunately the water in which you swim, if you're a Russian person living in Russia. Does any of that absolve you of a portion of culpability, if you don't actively participate in the war but don't oppose it either? I really don't know the answer to that, Jonathan. I don't think anyone does, honestly. It's just so hard to say. And I also think one's impression very much depends on which specific Russian people you talk to, and in which context. Hence my feeling that a bit of caution might be warranted here. In terms of Vladimir Kara-Murza, Ilya Yashin and Andrei Pivovarov: I don't know much about the latter two, but I know a lot about the former. When you said (to Sergej but also to camera) "Who are these characters, and why should we be listening to them anyway?", I must admit I cringed a little. In terms of the "who", I think you do actually know, and it was just something you said in the moment. But I still think it's worth enumerating who he Kara-Murza is, because his biography sort of argues against some of the ideas that were presented in the episode. We know that Kara-Murza has been a very prominent anti-Putin activist, going back decades. It was his work with people like Bill Browder and Senator John McCain which caused the Magnitsky Act to be passed in the US and subsequently in many other countries. And we know that, unlike nearly every other weak and diluted measure that the West has aimed at Russia, the Magnitsky Act actually hurt. We can be sure that it hurt, because Putin and others have commented on it public many times, and because they've lobbied several US Administrations to get rid of it; I've even heard Putin name-check Bill Browder directly in front of cameras (it was during a shared press conference with Donald Trump, if I recall correctly). These things, in which Kara-Murza has been instrumental, have been significant. He was also a senior aid to Boris Nemtsov, and a tireless supporter of Alexey Navalny. We know, as well, that for his activism against the regime, Kara Murza has been poisoned twice. And that was *before* he went to prison - which he could've avoided, btw. Just like Navalny, Kara Murza went back to Russia voluntarily, knowing he'd be in danger there, when he easily could've continued his activism outside the country. So to ask "Who are these characters?" ... well, it surprised me a bit, if I'm honest. And "why should we listen to them?" I think the answer is simple. We don't have to. It's up to us. If we don't like their message, we can just discard it. But again, I'm willing to assume that you just slightly misspoke here, and you actually meant something like "Why should anyone in Washington listen to them?". If so, then fair enough. Btw, I do agree that the plea for reducing sanctions on Russia at that press conference was a huge own goal, PR-wise. It was a really dumb and extremely tone-deaf thing to say in that forum, or possibly at all. And it was also very insensitive to Ukrainians. There's ample room to criticise the three participants for that. But Jonathan, when you imply (and almost directly say) that their words indicate they've been somehow brainwashed in prison, that takes you pretty far off the rails journalistically. There's absolutely no way you can know what happened to Kara-Murza in prison, or to the other two men, except by their own account. So when I heard that statement from you, I was once again a little surprised, to be honest. All that said, I'm 100% on board with Ukrainian people thinking these guys are jerks and we should pay no attention to them. Again, when your country is being destroyed by the Russian military and you're losing loved ones, what you *definitely* don't want to hear is some Russian person saying the world should be nicer to Russian people. That's entirely fair. But I worry, Jonathan, is that if you go too far down the path which you stepped onto at moments in this episode, you might end up losing some of the credibility you've earned. You know, every time Ukraine does anything good on the battlefield or anything bad happens inside The Russian Federation, The Times Radio in the UK predicts that Putin's regime is about to topple before our eyes. It's almost their default headline now for all of their TH-cam videos. This is the kind of thing I get worried about, because it inadvertently hands a small victory to Russian propagandists (they can say that Western media is delusional), and I think it also stops people in the West from taking The Times' war coverage seriously. They're a big outlet, so that's a big loss. Please, if you can just be a little mindful of these sorts of things, so that there's no way anyone can see you as anything but (again) a scrupulously honest chronicler of this horrific war, that would be great. I think it would ultimately help the cause. And criticism of this episode aside: please, keep up the stellar work! 🙂
Q: Yashin has also repeatedly called putin a war criminal... A: This Muscovite is trying to mislead the audience, back in 2014-2018 Yashin was the head of the draft board enlisting the Muscovite mercenaries and conscripts to the war in Ukraine, so he is in fact a war criminal himself.
that's a lie. Yashin was an elected head of one of Moscow districts, and as such , according to the Russian law, had to participate in organisation of conscriptions. Conscripts from 2014 to 2022 were not sent to Ukraine. Yashin was removed from that position by Moscow''s mayer for the lack of activity. He was not an employee of a military comissariate, he was not "proud" of his achievements.
Q: according to the Russian law... A: This Muscovite is delirious, the Russian Law ceased to exist in Zalesie on 1497 since when it has been replaced by Muscovite laws.
What does that mean? There will be no reality other than putinism unless they get more ‘physical’ in their opposition. Otherwise it’s all hot air and delusions.
@@SiliconCurtainOpposition must take all forms. Yes it must be armed, and yes it must be political and nuanced. They provide the latter as a bridge of legitimacy to the former, to dispute the entrenched narrative that only Putin cares about Russian people and that the opposition--armed or not--are merely stooges of the west. It is basic geopolitical good cop/bad cop. The west is the bad cop. Except in this case the bad cop is incompetent and turning against the good cop for playing the good cop role. That is about as much "useful idiocy" as Putin could ever hope for... The call to end blanket sanctions is unrealistic, but it makes good political theater to dispute or at least complicate the Kremlin's narrative, while also proving that the sanctions are working. By openly supporting blanket sanctions they would only play into Putin's narrative that they are "Western lapdogs" and thirsty for Russian blood and suffering and drive people back into Putin's abusive embrace. They need to show to the Russian people that they are trustworthy and that they genuinely care about Russia and Russians.
@@SiliconCurtain There was no reality other than "Soviet" in the Baltic states, Ukraine, and all Warsaw Pact countries. There were some attempts to get "physical" by Forest Brothers and other nationalists, but they were beaten to the ground very easily and quickly. Since then, all Eastern Europeans and Baltic people were sitting with their mouths shut, with a few moments of quick, peaceful, or violent protests now and then. There were no people's revolutions. Nobody overthrew Soviet regimes on barricades. They were just waiting for the regime to die. And it did die. They were waiting for the right moment and, meanwhile, they were supporting each other, spreading anti-regime information, and struggling where they could. This is what the Russian opposition must do-ignore Ukrainians and focus on Russians.
Guys, you are awesome. Romanticising Russia is a deadly mistake. So much appreciate what you’re doing!
👍👍👍 unfortunately I think those working on the US side for the prisoner releases have got sucked into the whole notion of ‘romantic suffering’, which is a particular weakness of the Russian intelligencia.
@@SiliconCurtain No! The families, people connected to the hostages lobby the President and he gives a crap! We have healthy empathy, whereas RU has zero! They don't care for their own citizens! RU has sent back dead POWs without their organs!!
Thank you so much for this eye opening discussion! As a Brazilian that fully supports Ukrainian victory and complete Russia’s defeat, there are severe limitations on which details I am able to catch in situations like these so, again, thank you for educating me on the details.
Slava Ukraini 🇺🇦
Thank You!
It came to me as no surprise that the first message our liberals sent to the world was to lift the sanctions off Russia. What they have in common with Putin (and with the majority of ethnic russians) is the notorious russian imperialist mindset. They are just like Putin in so many ways and are equally dangerous for the free world in a “sheep-in-a-wolf’s-clothing” kind of way. Never trust russian liberal opposition.
Volodymyr Zolkin has years worth, many hundrds of completely accssible interviews with "everyday Russians" who are not against the war. Is returned prisoners activists should be asked at every opportunity whether they have watched hundreds of these interviews. They must be asked to comment on Zoin's BRILLIANT body of work. It's just as important as asking them to comment on of the body of work of a Russian novelist. In fact, I'm a bit disappointed that you didn't bring him up in this discussion. Also, what do they think about all that Russian money being given to Ukraine for their military and rebuilding efforts? They need to be asked that every time as well. Do they think that money should go back to the wonderful Russian people they love so much? One last point: it's absolutely essential that we witnessed a public debate between Ilya Ponomarev -and other Russians who agree with him- and these returned russophiles. I hope you will schedule one!
Last but not least,You guys are all "totally awesome"!
From Czechia, country close to Ukraine that helps Ukraine - thank You! Obrigada!
People in Ukraine want stop genocide that genocide and victory of humane. Zelensky dictator uzurper as putin
Thanks Jonathan. Mr Sumlenny was very eloquent. As he said, it was not an exchange - it was paying a ransom for hostages by freeing FSB criminals. We might come to consider this as an error. Western governments should be clear that they will not do this again and their citizens should not expose them selves to risk of being taken as hostages by travel to Russia. Semlenny makes good points that well-known opposition figures have been helped before the ordinary Ukrainian children abducted by the Kremlin, and that the Moscow opposition has a vested interest in maintaining Moscow's empire so they have an imperial bias. The West should be very cautious about listening to them. I suspect that the culture of passive-aggressive victimhood and Moscow-centrism permeates Moscow culture so much that the 'opposition' are infused with it, even while outside Putin's lands, which means their views are distorted by it. Frankly, at the moment they are irrelevant and merit little attention. Ukraine trying to improve its defences after 2014 is not comparable with Russia's vast stockpiling of arms, including those taken over from the USSR. Vlad Vexler commented yesterday that we should not view politics as an identity issue requiring 'purity' of thought, and learn to accept that others say and think things we disagree with. Vlad suggested a possible political line the opposition could take but I think that line would not work now or indeed for years. So I try to consider their comments without casting the Russian 'opposition' into the outer darkness. The opposition is not political, so is failing now in practical politics. It may be unreasonable to expect anyone to have fully developed strategies just after being released, after years of manipulation by the FSB. Maybe their views will evolve after they reflect further, and then merit serious consideration. But, if the freed opposition figures believe that the people of Russia have no responsibility, so should be sheltered somehow, then the opposition are endorsing the non-political avoidance by the mass of the population. We have seen very little sign of popular protest against the war and all polls indicate widespread passive endorsement of the war. At the moment, the Kremlin can recruit soldiers with financial incentives so people are volunteering actively to participate.
Even suggesting there should be a question mark over Ukraine improving its defenses while fighting an ongoing defensive war against Russian aggression is playing the game by kremlin rules. It was Russia that used the Minsk agreements to rearm and continue the war. Not Ukraine.
He can get hunderts hostages when he wants, thousands of western citizens travel regularly to Russia or still live there. Are we going to do the same again and again? Send FSB agents back home in exchange for Russian citizen which were captured without reason or foreigners, which dunno smoked a joint and got 10 years gulag for that?
@@arekkusub6877 It should be made clear that, like with North Korea, you travel to Russia at your own risk.
Carthago delenda est.
@@proselytizingorthodoxpente8304 Agreed
Thank you for clarification the situation with sanctions against russia. Must be continued with all their strength.
Thanks, Jonathan, for bringing forward such informed guests ❤victory for Ukraine!
👍👍👍
One of the best episodes you've done. Great guests excellent subjects and excellent questions...
Thank you Jonathan 😊
Ukraine will win.
Slava Ukraine 🇺🇦 ♥️
Ukraine "must" win - Putin must lose! Slava Ukraini!
Героям слава🔱
I love Silicon curtain. The academic discipline is a well appreciated perspective on current events and models and paradigms that we apply.
You really enjoy your dose of propaganda, right?
@@user-jp4lt7xu2g
6 months old account, 57 disparaging/aggressive comments on this channel...it's so obvious, you're a troll. Do you really have nothing better to do with your life than spreading lies and propaganda?
@@user-jp4lt7xu2gAs, clearly, do you my friend.
Since precisely when were we supposed to give credence to anything that the Kremlin, the FSB, or more to the point Putin, promotes?
In over 60 years I cannot remember many of their statements or undertakings that proved to have an ounce of veracity when held up for inspection against the facts.
@@user-jp4lt7xu2g u have the hallmark style of zero-imagination which usually means cheaply-paid ru-troll (how's life in a shit-hole place going for u? And what does it feel like to have to hide your name, like a rodent crawling around the internet?)
@@user-jp4lt7xu2g Just get out of the basement kid..
Operator Starsky said some interesting stuff yesterday, that made sense regarding Kara-Murza’s statements about sanctions, based upon his own interactions with fellow Ukrainian soldiers who he knew well prior to them spending time in Russian captivity.
It certainly bolsters the point that they were fed a rich diet of misinformation whist incarcerated.
Well KaraMurza's wife was touring Europe and the US and constantly repeating how "innocent" russians should not face sanctions. She was never detained to be brainwashed. This is russian mentality, always play victim, take no responsibility.
@@ginniemess This, plus they think that everyone owes them everything, while they don't owe anything to anyone.
For someone who was freed against his will, Yashin seemed very jubilant on the airplane before he decided to play up to his russian audience.
@@nancyflorida9863 you have no idea, you are not in their position.
Even if it were logically sound to only sanction Putin et al it remains practically impossible. Kara-Murza et al know this. Putin has put the entire country in service of the war. But we have to remember Kara-Murza et al are speaking to two audiences. Like Navalny they need to gain favor, trust and respect of other compatriots to overcome fear of Putin.
It's basically geopolitical "good cop/bad cop"
I think it is an important part of waking up people so they realize their collective power is greater than Putin’s regime and they needn't remain passively nor actively complicit.
Remember they also called Putin a murderer and usurper and repeatedly denied his legitimacy while in and out of captivity.
Let's be a little more capable of nuance. These guys are capable of incredible nuance after years of torture and abuse and poisoning.
@@ayoungethan You insult my knowledge and then you try to educate me through a word salad. Try harder, vatnik. I understand them without a need for a translation. You sound like an apologist for impotent useless russian opposition.
Gentlemen, you are doing outstanding job ,fighting on information front for Ukraine, which is not a single time less important than actual battlefield. Big THANKS and appreciation from AFU soldier !
Thank you Silicon Curtain for all the information and for having Sergej Sumlenny on your channel!
As a Ukrainian i understand why Russian opposition does not vocalize their full support for Ukraine and condemnation of Z-ideology. If they would do so it would immediately cross out any possibility of political career. Overwhelming majority of Russian internal opposition is still pro-war. Only those who were born in USSR could fully understand this mentality and my English is too poor to try and explain it. They just feel good when their country is at war with someone. It distracts them from everyday problems.
They do not have almost any backup anyways. Most russians from provincies will suport only bloody wankers. They take freedom, democracy as evil thing. At same time due national mentality they blame any other country for any failure. They never regret or excuse for anything they did. So freedom and liberalism ideas have no future in russia.
your English is good enough to expess what we all perfectly know about RU so-called oppo.
@@yk8717❤️🔥
How about Ukraine shut off their oil and electricity this winter. Russ can just cope then
U just Rock Sir. Slava Ukraini Heroeim Slava
Thank you, Jonathan, for such a insightful discussion. Sergej nails it, discussing how Russian dissidents are no friends of Ukraine, and how taboo any support of a Ukrainian victory is.
Excellent guests, again. Brilliant host, as ever.
Thanks for centering Ukrainian perspective (as it is the innocent party that is defending itself against russia's illegal aggression) and not falling for bothsideism. So rare these days! Would love to see both guests appear here more often & individually.
🗽🇺🇸 🦅Stand proud, strong and ✝️Keep the faith🌻💙💛🕊️🇺🇸🇺🇦🕊️ 🫂with much Love from Indiana, USA🙏
yes but as an american myself, we can only tell them to keep the faith if the only military that can actually assist them ultimately, ours, is in active training ourselves as well as them, for a potential coming series of battles that will likel do some degree of demilitarization of RU. We americans are the ONLY backstop militarily, in case anyone here still doesn't know what the european capabilties.
Thank you SC for building our cognitive resilience with these great speakers, who decode what has gone on behind the scenes leading to the released prisoners' comments.
I had to listen to this episode twice. I feel disguisted and sad at the same time. Sad because it confirms there is little to hope for from the Russian opposition. It also tells us that there is no other way forward other than ensuring a victory for Ukraine. Hoping that opposition and/or regime change would free Ukraine without military strength forcing it, is just hoping for the impossible.
Unfortunately, by some reasons the hosts chose to distort what the Russians said. Basically they are calling for Europe not to build the Iron curtain, Putin does it in his own interests, so why to help him? If Russians don't have access to information maybe it'd better for Europe to help them? If they don't want to fight against Ukrain, may be it's reasonable to let them get out if Russua?
@@pavelsharkov5893how long does the war last? hint: it didn't start 2022. If so-called 'ordinary russians' did not find ways to get their unbiased information in 10 years, they are ignorant by choice, as the majority of Germans were during third reich
Ukraine can not win in the current situation. This war will keep going forever, or Ukraine will lose. These are two options.
Thank you for the clarification. What a bizarre situation. Literally an fsb virus has been unleashed in the guise of a prisoner exchange.
May the truth win out..Слава Україні
The late Ukrainian dissident and former RU army general Perto Grigorenko (who had singlehandedly defended Crimean Tarars and was kept in a psychiatric prison for that) has written a book whose tille summarizes the spirit of RU opposition: "In the underground, one meets only rats".
I hate that we give bullies like Putin so much power in this world.
Unfortunately it always has been a case " The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."
@@RadomDude-t2w I am from Germany i blame our german politicians. There is a quote "Wandel durch Handel"... This basically means good economic relationship will change politics and make countries come closer. Putin is a soviet KGB and Germany politicians thought he can be changed to a better man through economics
Fabulous fabulous guests. Thank you Jonathon. Please bring them back again.
👍👍👍
So glad you appreciate them. Both have been on the channel once before.
Very good and realistic talk.
👍👍👍
It is a Shame on the Russian people
The word shame does not exist in the russian vocabulary.
@@CollectiveDefence styd😓🙊
Fascinating discussion, thank you Jonathan, Sergej and Stephen. 💙💛
Journalists and the naive should try to remember the habits of sharks before they decide to swim in their waters.
Thanks for the update and views 🇺🇲🇺🇦
Oklahoma USA 🇺🇦🇺🇲
Prayers ❤❤❤
Insightful conversation! ❤
I agree with the extremely lopsided exchange of prisoners. Hostages versus Russian murderers, cyber criminals and real spies.
German prisons are designed to treat prisoners humanely and replicate the outside community, unlike a Russian gulag.
Prisoners in Germany often have their own rooms, private bathrooms and phones. Correctional Officers knock before entering cells.
US citizen Marc Fogel, arrested in 2021 for possessing medical Marijuana for back pain is deteriorating in the gulag, his sister said. Taken to a Russian prison hospital and being injected with who knows what. Fogel taught English in Russia for 10 years, but doesn't speak Russian. 😔
Russia has become a hostage taking country like Iran, China and N Korea.
Wonder if Russia will start taking Diplomats hostage, as Iran did, for 444 days during US President Jimmy Carter's administration.
The more I hear the released speak, the more it looks to me like a part of a clever "active measures" operation concocted by the FSB
I cannot believe that Kara-Murza said the sanctions should be relaxed to help the Russian people. That's unacceptable. I want to hear Bill Browder justify that ridiculous statement. Here's your hero, Bill. Go Ukraine! 🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦 Ignore traitors like Kara-Murza.
Its good cop / bad cop political theater. It means the sanctions are working and KM et al need the favor of fellow Muscovites to depose Putin and restore freedom of expression and make politocal dissent legal again. Calling for more hurt does not do them any political favors and plays into Putin's narrative that they are paid stooges of the West. They are casting doubt on that narrative.
My god the West is so completely and utterly naive.
Well, he keeps doing this.
Thank you, Jonathan for the light in a twisted darkness, from the USA.
Strong Russian "bozo bomb" energy here in the UK at the moment.
Holy cow! Get overwhelmed, shut off news for a couple days, and !pow! Whole new ballgame!
Thank you for the conversation. I am from Poland and I thought that I am alone with feelings that this prison exchange was horrible mistake but fortunately not. These three interviews are shocking and disgusting. In turnout to be that such thing as good Russian does not exist. Slava Ukraini 🇵🇱🇺🇦
They exist, just a bit hard to find, and hard to motivate them to take action to try to right the wrongs done.
I felt the same way the past 2 days.
They do exist - they're the ones fighting on the field with Ukraine, the ones giving intel to the GUR, the ones that "accidentally" set fire to strategic objectives. But the loud, "liberal" Russians, concerned with an easier life in the EU? Nah, they're not what we're looking for.
Well said.
Thank you for supporting Ukrain and belarusian Opposition! Вялікі дзякуй, Польшча!
Great episode! Sumlenny 🤩 Finch 🤩 together!
👍👍🇺🇦
Good stuff again. Love this channel for looking at oblique angles! I agree Moscow will always win any bargain, it’s their MO. They don’t do compromise like us. They have to get more out of it than you. Like a pawnshop psychology applied to foreign policy.
Слава Україні та її воінам... weapons for ukrania...
Go to the front, especially if you are Ukrainian
Yes! Slava Ukraini! Stay Strong! Justice for Ukraine! #FuckPutin
💪🇺🇦💙💛
Super interesting conversation! Thanks Jonathan!
Thank you for your coverage and insights
🇬🇧🇺🇦🏴🇺🇦🏴🇺🇦🇪🇺
Excellent. Knowledgeable Guests. Great to hear Ukraine's perspective openly discussed & believed. If only the West would listen better to Ukraine & Eastern Europeans. Trump congratulated Putin for his excellent exchange deal during his speech yesterday- no one responded. Finally!
THANK U jONATHON FOR THIS PARTICULAR VID!! THIS is, so far, the capstone vid, it has the most salient elements of the whole problem w/ Ru. I was already familiar somewhat with Stephen's utterly unprecedented work and writing, and so pleased to hear him and Sergej here, who actually has some of THE best insights i've seen from either a ru or a ukr, ever. So happy to hear any continuation of this theme/s
Have listened again to the interview with the three freed hostages including Kara Mursa...just one word (again) appalled. Thank you for your superb feed again.
Great stream, very interesting and informative. Thank you
one more point- Please watch Kara-Murza closely in the press conference. In Russian, he seems at first believable, but watch when he switches to his (extremely fluent) English, and tells the tale of how he refused to sign the documents. Am I the only one who felt that he was lying through his teeth? All kinds of subtle facial and body language signals flared up, and he suddenly came across as untrustworthy. Watch it. I very much doubt their tales of bravery and refusal to sign anything. As Kara-Murza mentioned, families are threatened, and I have no doubt they are under instructions to deliver on certain committments.,,,or...as with Navalny, family members will suffer, or even Krasikov can be sent back by Putin , to deal with them
Conspiracy theories.
As a german i was outraged about these so called opposition. Your title about the "useful idiots" is perfect and calmed me down a bit.
A few days later, and their language is ‘softening’ - it was such a mistake to immediately do a press conference after their release.
@@SiliconCurtain for them it was a mistake for us it is enlightening. They may become more understanding and we in that process might understand how to convince other russians, but for now they did a good job showing how russians tick and why this war will not end from within russia.
As a Russian, I'll tell you what: mind your own business, because, you know, the Reichstag is waiting for its red flag.
it would be great if you talked to zolkin, who interviews russian pows in Ukraine.
maybe someone who talks English and does the same as Zolkin.
I’ve tried, and he feels it’s not appropriate because of the sensitivity of his work.
thank you for deep analysis and constand support, with love
Common Russian people support the war or are compliant. I have a distant relative who was born, grew up and lived in Eastern Ukraine till her 20's when she married a Russian and moved to Moscow. Her mother, father, and brother are all internationally displaced in Ukraine. When I asked her what they are going to do if her husband is sent to fight in Ukraine, she told they were getting ready buying necessary kits etc, and "I'm not interested in politics".
That's such a standard line. When my friends in the US tell me they aren't " interested in politics" I tell them, that's a shame because " politics is interested in every aspect of your life".
@@lindakelley2676 i usually tell "even if you aren't interested in politics, it's interested in you, and you may not like the result, but it's gonna be too late for you to change it"
Well, you should understand that there is a lot of propaganda in Russia. People who are more naive believe it. I personally know plenty of people who oppose this war.
Excellent interview! Thank you very much!
Great clear-eyed discussion by all three speakers, Jonathan, Sergei, Stephen. There really is no substitute for a catastrophic defeat for Russia in its war against Ukraine. Defeat could catalyse systemic changes within Russia: future generation of Russians would be freed from the national curse that dooms them to sacrifice themselves for imperial wars.
Most disappointed in Kara-Murza.
Hi Johnathan....please reach out to our friend Konstantin. He seems to be genuinely depressed since the release of the Russian dissidents. I'm thinking there may be a possible opportunity for Ukraine to arrange a home for the true dissidents that have dedicated themselves to enlightenment of those outside Russia to the propaganda machine which is Russia. It could be a win win for both.
. Iliya Yashin is the Russian version of a Trojan Horse
SLAVA UKRAINE!❤❤❤
Let me provide some historical context for you. Iliya Yashin is most likely a KGB/GSB officer, he has proven to be part of Kremlin information war long time ago. When Nemtsov was killed, Yashin went to Chechnya and gave a mock press-conference to put pressure on Kadyrov, kind of accusing him indirectly of killing Nemtsov. And we all know that Nemtsov was killed by Putin, and Kadyrov was only used as an escape goat to diffuse the whole tension around this horrible murder. So, Yashin played Putin's game in this case, and he was not even arrested in Chechnya, which shows that he was protected from high offices. Further, Yashin never supported Russian volunteers who support Ukrainian army and he was always against any armed confrontation against Kremlin.
Also didn't Yashin turned up on a Nemtsov murder scene on obscenely short notice?
Oh, and he also worked in the recruitment committee in one of the Moscow voenkomat's, but not just any , specifically one that was famous for recruiting mercenaries to fight as russian proxies in Donbass.
@@TheCouchCommando I think so, yes. He has been very inconsistent in his “opposition” to Kremlin, while being allowed to remain in the country when others were killed or imprisoned
It is fascinating just how much “you know” and “we know” and also “everyone knows”. Why do we need Jon or anyone else to discuss what is happening, to introduce new information from a variety of voices? “We already know” everything. And if we are not sure we can pretend we are. It’s all so good. TY for the historical context. Can you share a link?
@@georgine321 Listening to multiple experts is always great to test your knowledge and memory, but not every expert will know everything. There are people who are not public and not on social media who are experts on Russia and Russian aggression, like myself. If you are looking for links then you need to do your own homework, I did mine 😁
I'm from Europe. Thanks to the fact that Russia stopped supplying gas to Europe, energy prices rose. Many bakeries, butchers and glassworks went bankrupt.
None of us started that war and despite that we are suffering thanks to Russian imperialism.
I don't have much understanding of the cries and cries that the poor Russian people are suffering from unjust sanctions.
Russian culture perpetuates two opposing parallel identities... That of the bold aggressive conqueror, and that of the forever blameless victim.
@@user-zb9lv3gh8sI agree. All the poor Russian victim of oppression in the Baltic state.
@@happyfelix1440😂 you have no idea what you’re talking about
@@EEX97623Yes, I was in the Baltics in the time of the USSR. I am still speak Russian.
I have no faith in the Russian people so see no need for us to attempt to win a popularity contest in Russia.
Thank You for this talk!!! Millions of people in west should hear IT! Thank You!!!!!!! This are exact description what is going on!!! Please promote this video!!!
👍👍👍🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦
Doubt released Russian dissidents have had time to take in their new reality so I doubt they would have an informed decision about the situation beyond Russia.
Exactly the immediate press conference was such a poor idea, and another error of judgement. They are not only badly informed about changes external to Russia and in Ukraine, but in Russia itself too. In fact their view of reality has been purposely distorted by Putin - the ‘hostage taker’
Thank you, Jonathan, for inviting Sergej Sumlenny and Stephen Douglas to discuss the "exchange". Very good conversation. Thank you, Sergej, for being such a strong voice, you are one of the very rare "good" Russian to me. Thank you, Stephen Douglas, for your dedication. I hope, you will come together again soon on Silicon Curtain.
🇺🇦 Перемоги та миру всім українцям! 🇺🇦
Finally! I hear voices of some reasonable people. I was listening other media and they are all pee their pants from excitement about this "Russian opposition"
Great discussion. Some very important points!
Sergej you nailed it! You are the best! I saw the press conference and I immediately hoped that you would do an analysis 👍Please also do an analysis on your channel! Love and Greetings from the southwest of Germany ❤
Greetings from the southwest of Germany to the southwest of Germany 👋🏻
@@manmadeartists 😁👍👋❤
Yes,yes!
Victory Ukraine !
RuZZia go home now !
It's good to know the russian opposition is imperialist,too.
For the Azow figthers I am very sad.
The release of these political prisoners is fresh.. these people haven’t caught their breath yet. I haven’t seen the interviews but I’m betting that the experience of these ex prisoners must have been terrifying & they may even have been threatened by FSB/Putin’s thugs that even if they are released, they can still be gotten to and eliminated for good. Perhaps imprisonment has changed their values to ‘me/my family first, at all costs’ 🤷♀️
Russia does carry out assassinations in the West all the time
Thank you Rick, Mods, for this Free Azov stream. Your interviewing of the people on the sidewalk provides fascinating insight. Slava Ukraini, Free AZOV, Return the Children, Crimea is Ukraine, RGTFO and VPDFO. Heroyam Slava
🤔 what would Garry Kasparov say on "Russian opposition" ? 😊
I hope this Russian "opposition" doesn't make Kasparov drink too much. I love Garry. 👍
Gary is well hidden imperialist too. Not once he was speaking on side of russian imperialism. He never publicaly spoke of crimes of russia or soviet union. He was saying about freedom somthing but never made excuse or named real problem.
Thank you, Jonathan for this good discussion.
Unfortunately, also lots of Indonesians are supporting Putin.
Thank you! Very good analysis.
Нарадзіўся я літвінам - Т.Касцюшка.
Мы, літвіны!
Мы Vialikaja Літва!
Tremendously important interview! The question is surely raised to how much the West takes Ukraine's position and concerns seriously? Jake Sullivan is an example, crying on live TV, did he cry when the children's hospital was hit?
One small thing, I disagree about Sergej's comment on Baerbock, I believe she really gets it concerning Ukraine but Scholz (the coward) as Chancellor has very strong executive powers and basically overrides dissent.
Mark Galeotti in his podcast today has come out in support of their calls for reducing sanctions. Maybe time to get him on again. Ff you do you can also ask why he is so keen on belittling those from the Baltics and eastern Europe who see russia as an immediate military threat
Because Russia is not an immediate military threat? I'm from Baltics, from Latvia, and while Russia is a constant threat, it definitely is not an immediate military threat right now. There is simply no military resource left in Russia to be a threat to anyone, much less a NATO country, right now.
Mark Galeotti is pro Russian, he justifies the Russian imperialism and the Russian occupation of Finland and Baltic countries.
I think the Baltic states are pushing the immediacy of the threat as they know it will take YEARS for the rest of Europe to catch on and actually start to build their own capabilities and stockpiles.
@@grahortarg9933"right now" 😂 Naivety at it's best!
@@ginniemess Romanian here - Russian drones keep crashing on our land for more than a year now, and our army can't shoot them down because we (still) don't have the legal framework to do so. My grandparents were "moved" from their ancestral lands in Moldova by the Russians. I fully realize the threat and can't express my feelings without getting banned on YT. But... He's right. "right now" Russia's military capability is a fraction of what it was, and it will take them at least 5-6 years to rebuild capacity to a level that could threaten a NATO country, and that's assuming they somehow manage to maintain the crazy military spending they have right now. (iirc, something like 1/3 of the budget)
The removal of sanctions talk is beyond stupid, however. It's based on this fantasy that "oh, if we give ordinary russians everything on a silver platter, they'll reject Putin!". This has been tried before in the 90s, when Russia received so much aid compared to the rest of eastern bloc, and yet they STILL chose their imperial past.
Thank you! Informative!
Bill Browder must be a bit embarressed by Kara-Murza's ill-thought-out outburst on lifting Russian sanctions. 😕
Well said!
Concerning the exchange...it is not weakness to put people first. That is being misinterpreted by Russia and used, yes, but it is not weakness to save the innocent and surrender the guilty to their fate and own decisions. Russia exchanged good people and received only scumbags.
We must keep our highest values in all exchanges. Some things just are not political equations.
I really like the dynamic of these three way conversations.
Remember Navalny said that Crimea is Russia. The Navalny-ites don’t really see Ukraine like you do. What could they possibly mean by compromise?
Great clarity into this whole Russian procedure with this interview Jonathan
👍👍👍🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦
Having the vid not viewed in full yet - how must it feel to not fearing death - and at a moment just to speak out your thinkings full free?
Wow. Thanks from Germany.
Those who are thinking of returning have to think twice about speaking up, though
«…Браты мае, мужыкі родныя. З-пад шыбеніцы маскоўскай прыходзіць мне да вас пісаці, і, можа, раз астатні. Горка пакінуць зямельку родную і цябе, дарагі мой народзе. Грудзі застогнуць, забаліць сэрца, - но не жаль згінуць за тваю праўду… Няма ш, браткі, большага шчасця на гэтым свеце, як калі чалавек у галаве мае розум і науку… Но як дзень з ноччу не ходзіць разам, так не ідзе разам наука праўдзіва з няволяй маскоўскай. Дапокуль яна ў нас будзе, у нас нічога не будзе, не будзе праўды, багацтва і ніякай наукі, - адно намі, як скацінай, варочаць будуць не для дабра, но на пагібель нашу… Бо я табе з-пад шыбеніцы кажу, Народзе, што тагды толькі зажывеш шчасліва, калі над табою Маскаля ўжэ не будзе.
Твой слуга
Яська-гаспадар з-пад Вільні»
Just a perfect title, says it all
👍👍👍🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦 it was my instant reaction to hearing the press conference. Especially as I’ve listened to these three extensively before they were arrested, and felt there was something substantial different and weird about some of what they were saying now.
This is why I was never a very big fan of Navalny. It was great that he was against the oligarchy corruption, but at his core, he was just another Christian nationalist.
When you're so beaten up that even liberals aren't anti-Russian enough for you. Not a channel, but a bunch of geeks.
Grat. Finally some people started to understand that all russians are the same, they all want to remain as an empire, either their for or against putin
I agree with you 100%
Thanks. Very good and informative.
🔱🌻slava ukraine 💙💛heroyam slava!✌😊
As a Russian, I can not hope for Ukraine to take over Russia. Suggesting that is stupid.
How can it be a surprise that the Russian political dissention doesn't exactly align with Western thought on the war in Ukraine? (Vladimir Kara-Morza is unquestionably a brave man, but I disagree with him on numerous issues and he's going to experience immense, widespread pushback regarding a number of his views.)
It's a surprise because western media created a certain imagine for Yashin and KM, which is based solely on the few aspects of their ideology that are compatible with western ideals and goals. The rest... well, that will be an interesting string of "surprises".
Great discussion, thank you
we can't beat "dictator's truth" because most of us are dictators inside
So nice for who
Really interesting, thank you guys!
Stockholm Syndrome 🤓
I'd wish, I fear it's far worse than that. They truly believe they can be the redeemers of the "Russian soul".
Wow 🤩! Great work! Great discussion!
Hello Jonathan!
First of all, I want to thank you for all the work you've done to bring Ukrainian voices to the public ear. And congratulations on the success of this podcast - it's a great resource, and although I'm a person who follows the war obsessively and who lived in Ukraine myself for a few years, I've learned some things through listening. So well done 🙂
Please bear all that in mind when I say what I'm about to say (if indeed you decide to read it - I understand that a post as long as this one can put people off).
So ... I was a little surprised to hear some of the things you said on this episode, especially on the question of culpability.
I think it's absolutely fair that, when your country gets bombarded and civilians are killed and tortured in huge numbers, you don't want to hear the messages of people like Andrei Pivovarov and Vladimir Kara-Murza, pleading sympathy for people inside the aggressor state. So there's no reason at all to expect a Ukrainian person (e.g. your guest Sergej) to have any sympathy for the view that not all Russians are culpable for this war.
However, you yourself are in a slightly different position to that, Jonathan. I feel like just a little more restraint might have been a good idea here - not so much out of fairness to Russians, but just to preserve your own status as one who's reporting honestly and scrupulously.
We know the question of collective culpability is an extremely complex one. Almost a century after the Holocaust began, scholars *still* debate the collective culpability of the German people. That's because it's a very difficult thing to establish.
Obviously this doesn't mean that discussing the collective responsibility of Russians in 2024 should be off limits - it's totally fine to discuss it, of course. I'm only saying that I think taking too firm a stance on it at this stage kind of ignores the complicated nature of the issue.
At this point, it seems to me we *just don't know* what level of support exists for the war inside Russia. We do get indications here and there, and there are certainly zealots in Russia whose opinions are utterly repulsive. But how numerous are they? And what does everyone else think?
Polls are unreliable, and people generally don't want to express critical views on camera. These are both characteristics of totalitarian societies, where 'public opinion' as we know it arguably doesn't exist. Besides which, a lot of people's views are inevitably somewhat tainted by *decades* of demonisation (of Ukrainians, of Crimean Tatars, and of The West, which they're constantly told they're at war with).
This is unfortunately the water in which you swim, if you're a Russian person living in Russia. Does any of that absolve you of a portion of culpability, if you don't actively participate in the war but don't oppose it either?
I really don't know the answer to that, Jonathan. I don't think anyone does, honestly. It's just so hard to say. And I also think one's impression very much depends on which specific Russian people you talk to, and in which context. Hence my feeling that a bit of caution might be warranted here.
In terms of Vladimir Kara-Murza, Ilya Yashin and Andrei Pivovarov: I don't know much about the latter two, but I know a lot about the former. When you said (to Sergej but also to camera) "Who are these characters, and why should we be listening to them anyway?", I must admit I cringed a little.
In terms of the "who", I think you do actually know, and it was just something you said in the moment. But I still think it's worth enumerating who he Kara-Murza is, because his biography sort of argues against some of the ideas that were presented in the episode.
We know that Kara-Murza has been a very prominent anti-Putin activist, going back decades. It was his work with people like Bill Browder and Senator John McCain which caused the Magnitsky Act to be passed in the US and subsequently in many other countries. And we know that, unlike nearly every other weak and diluted measure that the West has aimed at Russia, the Magnitsky Act actually hurt.
We can be sure that it hurt, because Putin and others have commented on it public many times, and because they've lobbied several US Administrations to get rid of it; I've even heard Putin name-check Bill Browder directly in front of cameras (it was during a shared press conference with Donald Trump, if I recall correctly). These things, in which Kara-Murza has been instrumental, have been significant.
He was also a senior aid to Boris Nemtsov, and a tireless supporter of Alexey Navalny.
We know, as well, that for his activism against the regime, Kara Murza has been poisoned twice. And that was *before* he went to prison - which he could've avoided, btw. Just like Navalny, Kara Murza went back to Russia voluntarily, knowing he'd be in danger there, when he easily could've continued his activism outside the country.
So to ask "Who are these characters?" ... well, it surprised me a bit, if I'm honest.
And "why should we listen to them?" I think the answer is simple. We don't have to. It's up to us. If we don't like their message, we can just discard it.
But again, I'm willing to assume that you just slightly misspoke here, and you actually meant something like "Why should anyone in Washington listen to them?". If so, then fair enough.
Btw, I do agree that the plea for reducing sanctions on Russia at that press conference was a huge own goal, PR-wise. It was a really dumb and extremely tone-deaf thing to say in that forum, or possibly at all. And it was also very insensitive to Ukrainians. There's ample room to criticise the three participants for that.
But Jonathan, when you imply (and almost directly say) that their words indicate they've been somehow brainwashed in prison, that takes you pretty far off the rails journalistically. There's absolutely no way you can know what happened to Kara-Murza in prison, or to the other two men, except by their own account. So when I heard that statement from you, I was once again a little surprised, to be honest.
All that said, I'm 100% on board with Ukrainian people thinking these guys are jerks and we should pay no attention to them. Again, when your country is being destroyed by the Russian military and you're losing loved ones, what you *definitely* don't want to hear is some Russian person saying the world should be nicer to Russian people. That's entirely fair.
But I worry, Jonathan, is that if you go too far down the path which you stepped onto at moments in this episode, you might end up losing some of the credibility you've earned.
You know, every time Ukraine does anything good on the battlefield or anything bad happens inside The Russian Federation, The Times Radio in the UK predicts that Putin's regime is about to topple before our eyes. It's almost their default headline now for all of their TH-cam videos. This is the kind of thing I get worried about, because it inadvertently hands a small victory to Russian propagandists (they can say that Western media is delusional), and I think it also stops people in the West from taking The Times' war coverage seriously. They're a big outlet, so that's a big loss.
Please, if you can just be a little mindful of these sorts of things, so that there's no way anyone can see you as anything but (again) a scrupulously honest chronicler of this horrific war, that would be great. I think it would ultimately help the cause.
And criticism of this episode aside: please, keep up the stellar work! 🙂
They might be free but know they are not beyond pudins reach. Many of his assassinations take place far from ruzz territory.
But Russians love Thier Leaders
I love the title. Just perfect .
It is sad how the russian "opposition" always fails. Gasparov etc have lived outside russia for years and are ridded of the ruskimir view.
Q: Yashin has also repeatedly called putin a war criminal...
A: This Muscovite is trying to mislead the audience, back in 2014-2018 Yashin was the head of the draft board enlisting the Muscovite mercenaries and conscripts to the war in Ukraine, so he is in fact a war criminal himself.
Not just that, but he was proud of his achievements at said job...
that's a lie. Yashin was an elected head of one of Moscow districts, and as such , according to the Russian law, had to participate in organisation of conscriptions. Conscripts from 2014 to 2022 were not sent to Ukraine. Yashin was removed from that position by Moscow''s mayer for the lack of activity. He was not an employee of a military comissariate, he was not "proud" of his achievements.
Q: that's a lie...
A: That's a tautology, since everything said by any Muscovite is always a lie, deception, falsification or disinformation.
Q: Yashin was an elected head of one of Moscow districts...
A: Which means that he willingly collaborated with the criminal Muscovite regime.
Q: according to the Russian law...
A: This Muscovite is delirious, the Russian Law ceased to exist in Zalesie on 1497 since when it has been replaced by Muscovite laws.
As internal opponents to Putin's policies, it is their job to advocate for a different reality for Russians inside Russia.
What does that mean? There will be no reality other than putinism unless they get more ‘physical’ in their opposition. Otherwise it’s all hot air and delusions.
@@SiliconCurtainOpposition must take all forms. Yes it must be armed, and yes it must be political and nuanced. They provide the latter as a bridge of legitimacy to the former, to dispute the entrenched narrative that only Putin cares about Russian people and that the opposition--armed or not--are merely stooges of the west. It is basic geopolitical good cop/bad cop. The west is the bad cop. Except in this case the bad cop is incompetent and turning against the good cop for playing the good cop role. That is about as much "useful idiocy" as Putin could ever hope for...
The call to end blanket sanctions is unrealistic, but it makes good political theater to dispute or at least complicate the Kremlin's narrative, while also proving that the sanctions are working. By openly supporting blanket sanctions they would only play into Putin's narrative that they are "Western lapdogs" and thirsty for Russian blood and suffering and drive people back into Putin's abusive embrace. They need to show to the Russian people that they are trustworthy and that they genuinely care about Russia and Russians.
@@SiliconCurtain
There was no reality other than "Soviet" in the Baltic states, Ukraine, and all Warsaw Pact countries. There were some attempts to get "physical" by Forest Brothers and other nationalists, but they were beaten to the ground very easily and quickly. Since then, all Eastern Europeans and Baltic people were sitting with their mouths shut, with a few moments of quick, peaceful, or violent protests now and then. There were no people's revolutions. Nobody overthrew Soviet regimes on barricades. They were just waiting for the regime to die. And it did die. They were waiting for the right moment and, meanwhile, they were supporting each other, spreading anti-regime information, and struggling where they could. This is what the Russian opposition must do-ignore Ukrainians and focus on Russians.
Thank you. You really changed my mind.