Small, but important correction: Kitazawa succeeded Imaizumi in 1899 (not 1902). 1902 is when the Jiji Manga page started, but Kitazawa had started drawing individual cartoons for the Jiji Shinpo three years prior to that!
The most insightful and understandable history of Manga that I’ve seen. Appreciate the insights into how other media and technology, such as cartoons with speech bubbles and sound recording, influence the form and structure of emergent new media as was the case with Manga. Thank you!
As someone who loves to learn about history, this video was amazing! It was easy to follow and understand at the same time, thank you for publishing it!
This is beyond incredible! Thank you for this, I was researching the topic (tired from the hokusai thing as well, I was prompted to search). Great work! I wish to see more videos showcasing your deep knowledge of the subject, this is simply invaluable.
@eikeexner3029 I even made a presentation in my manga/comic courses and referenced&credited your article and name, the phonograph hypothesis, in particular)
This was amazing. I could not look away the entire time. I'd love to know what other mangaka around Tezukas period had different art styles. Just to get an idea of what modern anime and manga could have looked like
What a great video! I've wondered about the origins of manga and the "convergent evolution" with american comics, I always found the widespread narrative about medieval drawings pretty unconvinving so it's nice to come across an actually well researched discussion on the topic
I didn't know, this was relevant to my interests, but this was very entertaining and informative to watch! Excellent research and presentation. Und eine Wonne, das Wilhelm Busch eine Erwähnung gefunden hat!
I was led here by Professor Ashmore's recommendation. I had known about a lot of the information that you discuss, but I was one of the readers led astray by the erroneous "origin", so watching this gave me a new and original view of the subject. As a lover of the Ninth Art, and an admirer of comic art, from the Americas, Europe and Japan, this video helps ties all the influences of comic art from all over the world.
I hope this video gains more attention. Having no access to information about Manga history as a child I felt like there had to be a connection to early American comic strips due to certain visual gags being similar between the cultures, some of which have fallen out of fashion in the US, but this research makes the connection vastly more important then a mere footnote.
Thank you! That's a big reason I decided to make the video. There's just so much half-baked or outright mis-information out there... Obviously there's only so much info I could pack into a video, but check out the book if you're interested in this subject m(_ _)m
I always assumed manga and modern comics had a similar origin and people would always argue and bring up that 12th century scroll. Thanks for all the clarification, always good to know you were right even if it’s a decade late lol.
Wow I didn’t think I could still have my whole world flipped upside down like that! I’m in art college for sequential art/comics so I had to take a sequential art history class and none of these ideas were ever mentioned! We just got the general “inked scrolls to manga” pipeline, which never made that much sense but I never really questioned it, just thought I wasn’t getting it somehow. But this changes the game! My professor was a very knowledgeable guy and was working on his phd at the time, but he was definitely much more versed in western comic history lol. I love relearning things like this and filling in the gaps I didn’t even know I had. Thanks so much!
Yeah, I had the same experience, thinking "this doesn't *really* make sense...", which led me down this rabbit hole for my PhD research. I'm glad the video was helpful!
Im majoring in Manga in a Japanese University and this basically sums up everything my teacher was talking about in the classes but for some reason he didnt give us any documents (we have to be at the school in person to read books)(also learning in japanese is obviously harder). Now I can maybe actually write this report thank you so much! m-.-m
I'm studying Japanese studies at University, and according to our professor Hokusai was the inventor of the term "Manga". So if what you say is true, wich I believe it is, they learn us wrong facts (wich doesn't surprise me tbh). Anyway, thanks for the video it was very informative and accurate!
Yeah, that's a persistent myth, but false. The word probably did become far more widely known because of the Hokusai Manga, but there are multiple uses of the word in Japanese texts before Hokusai. I discuss this in some detail in my book (page 15 and 206-7), if your professor asks you for a source!
I am here because Neil Gaiman shared this video and I am hoping more people will do the same. Not only I learned a lot, I am also really inclined to buying your book. Great job!
Absolutely fantastic video essay, thank you for making this! Just a very small thing I noticed is that the more or less literal translation of manga is "whimsical pictures", whereas you mention that manga translates to "sketches or drawings in general". This is only a very minor point but is important in regards to mangas history and how it would come to evolve in the 60s. You see, mainstream manga in the 50s were almost always aimed at children, with Tezuka at the helm for many of these. This eventually led to Yoshihiro Tatsumi coining the term 'Gekiga', which literally translates to "dramatic pictures". Gekiga was much more violent than manga, along with tackling heavy themes targeting a more mature demographic. Gekiga was essentially what would go on to be seinen manga, as Tezuka would also start making gekiga which on the whole made the 'genre' much more popular (popular Gegika from Tezuka include Message to Adolf, Ayako, MW, Ode to Kirihito, amongst others). I realise this is not really related to the origins of manga, but nevertheless it's still some great information for anybody who may be interested! The most famous gekiga is undoubtedly Lone Wolf and Cub, penned by the legendary Kazuo Koike with art by the seminal Goseki Kojima. The pair would also go on to make Samurai Executioner, which would be serialised at the same time as LW&C, along with Path of the Assassin later down the line.
Thank you for the kind compliment. Regarding your comment about language: unfortunately it's not quite that simple. First, there is no "more or less literal translation" of manga, because the term manga, like virtually all categories we use outside of basic physical phenomena, is a 'social construct' and subject to change. "Whimsical pictures" I believe was coined by Fred Schodt in his Manga! Manga! and quickly spread from there because for a long time it was virtually the only English-language book on manga. Manga before Imaizumi and Kitazawa was indeed used as a synonym for "sketches" before it started being used to describe caricature and cartooning, before then describing picture stories and comics. "Gekiga" was similarly ambiguous. Some artists whose works were described as gekiga did not use the term, and even those who used it couldn't agree on what it meant. It only entered the popular lexicon during the late 1960s because of Saito Takao's insistence on using it. As a result it became largely associated with Saito's style: gritty, with forceful black linework, and characters with bushy eyebrows. A Jump editor has joked that the way to distinguish "manga" and "gekiga" is that manga has big round eyes and gekiga small rectangular ones. Tatsumi's "gekiga" look very different from Saito's "gekiga." These words do not have an absolute, clearly defined meaning. The same is true for "seinen manga," which is a demographic term rather than a stylistic or narrative one, since it derives from the target audience of the magazines comics later labeled "seinen manga" were published in (i.e. magazines targeting "seinen," young men). So it's not quite correct to say that "gekiga" became "seinen manga." Shonen/shojo/seinen/josei are rather useless terms when discussing manga to begin with, in my opinion, precisely because they're so vague and broad. But the reason why there is overlap between works described as gekiga and works described as seinen manga is obviously because the styles and subject matter of works like Lone Wolf and Cub were considered most suitable for young men (seinen). It doesn't make sense to call Saito's Muyonosuke a fundamentally different category ("shonen manga") from Lone Wolf and Cub ("seinen manga") though, other than the target demographics of the magazines in which they were originally featured. And even "Boys' Magazine" (Shonen Magajin) wasn't primarily read by boys anymore in the late 1960s. It's readership had become primarily adult by then and the magazine even considered dropping the word shonen from its title at the time. In short, all of these words and categories have unstable and changing meanings, which makes it impossible to say that a given term "means" this or that without careful explanation.
@@vely1341 I actually wish the book were cheaper, but unfortunately the publisher decides pricing and such :-( Comics and the Origins of Manga is available as an e-book, however! Rutgers University Press also occasionally has discounts for direct sales. Right now all their books are 50% off (www.rutgersuniversitypress.org/spring-sale#!). Shipping still applies for orders shipped outside of the U.S., but the 50% off might make up for that (but the e-book should also be 50% off and obviously no shipping there). This is the direct link, and "ROVER21" is the current discount code: www.rutgersuniversitypress.org/comics-and-the-origins-of-manga/9781978827226
This further proves my own personal opinion..."manga and comics arent seperate mediums". Ill never understand why fans treat them like they arent the same medium.
It depends how one defines medium in this sense. Are film and television the same medium? They both use the same techniques, technology, and basic storytelling elements (even many of the same artists). But their conventions and distributions are often so widely distinct that it seems important enough to draw that line. They're too broad to define merely as genres of the same medium, but have entirely different expectations from their respective audiences. It may not have started out that way, but the artforms evolved, just as comics and manga have diverged.
All manga are comics but not all comics are manga. Manga is a subset of the comic medium and same with Bandee Desinee or Historietas which are used to designate the Franco Belgian and Spanish comics. In general historically the production and distribution of comics has lead to different subsets and people tend to be fans of one of the other or make distinction between the outputs of different industries within the medium. In general you can even see for example a lot of TH-cam channels self-select if they cover comics or manga exclusively for example meaning there is a value in distinguishing between them.
Thank you so much for this. I have a presentation about Manga and the only resource I have been given was a book by John Allen called Anime and Manga. I think your opinion on how Hokusai did not start today's manga will look a little controversial in my teacher's eyes but I truly think people deserve to know the truth and not rely on books that are somewhat ''outdated''. I have included so much from your speech and wish you a great journey on your life. Thanks again 🍀🌸
@@eikeexner3029 To be fair, I believe he‘s just following what our Academics are telling him to. But he really liked the presentation and was very open minded about it! ^_^ It was a great experience, thank you for sharing your knowledge . ヾ（*⌒ヮ⌒*）ゞ
I imagine being a young japanese boy in 1923 reading this comic. I'm going to be obsessed with this speech bubble drawn narrative, some could say I'm an otaku of it?
Bro, wtf are these views!!! This video is amazing and added so much to my presentation at school about Japanese pop culture! Why aren't people watching this?!
I spent like a week in that freezing attic and then another week editing, so it makes me really happy every time someone finds this video useful! Thank you!
@@eikeexner3029 Like many of my advanced years I discovered manga in the 1980s, although we'd already been introduced to it via Astro Boy and Frank Miller's Ronin. We just hadn't realized it. Then Viz started flooding the market with outstanding titles like Crying Freeman, Mai, and Kamui. Then I discovered the Japanese editions of Akira and it just goes from there (not unlike the discovery of the Franco-Belgium "album" via Asterix. Your analysis demystifies the origins of the genre, but makes much more sense. A humble medium with humble origins.
Interesting explanation on the origins of modern manga. I think it would be very interesting if you created a video about the business aspect of the modern manga industry, such as how magazines determine which series is profitable and which should be discontinued. I hope to see more of your content in the future. Cheers.
Maybe once my next book is out! The combination of 1) anthology magazines not tied to individual franchises that are 2) published by major national publishing houses with more resources than the small independent publishers seen in other countries in my opinion was the primary reason why Japan developed the world's largest comics industry btw.
Your research should be plugged into every beginning or some part in the beginning of every single Manga history book now. ever since pirating so many American comic books and Japanese manga, It started rubbing the me the wrong way that all manga before Tezuka is formed from Hokusai ideas. Thank you for informing my long held suspicion.
excellent video! I will say the little text you add here and there in the video gets covered up by the subtitles though, but otherwise everything was very well laid out.
I enjoyed this video and learned from it. I also liked the old recordings -- what are they? You may have seen the film of a Japanese jazz band and singer in the early 1930s elsewhere on TH-cam. Jazz, like comic strips, went all over the world.
Haha thank you! I spent hours looking for appropriate music and finding good clips to use. The songs are "Asakusa Koshinkyoku" (浅草行進曲), "Yagibushi" (八木節), "Kigen Nisen-roppyaku-nen" (紀元2600年), "Dotonbori Koshinkyoku" (道頓堀行進曲), and "Nonkibushi" (呑気節). You can find different version of all of them on TH-cam! Yes, you're completely right about jazz! I haven't seen the film you're referring to, but there are references to jazz in Japanese comics during that time period as well, and many Japanese jazz records from the time survive. Jazz, cafes, and comics were all part of a global modern urban culture at the time (in the imperialist centers at least).
@@eikeexner3029 After I wrote that, I went looking for the film and couldn't find it. It has apparently been removed. I remember it was from 1932, that the singer was a well known one, and she and the band were in traditional Japanese dress. The song was an American tune but she sang Japanese lyrics. Jazz was very popular in Japan as it was everywhere then. I have a Japanese issue of a 1930s Louis Armstrong record. And of course JVC stands for Japanese Victor Company.
@@TuanBasikal That's too bad... Btw, if I remember correctly, this book has a bunch of lists of records published in Japan in the 1920s and 1930s, if you read Japanese and can get your hands on a copy: ndlonline.ndl.go.jp/#!/detail/R300000001-I000001347488-00
Found it! Or a version of it... the one I saw before was the finished, edited version, and this is a collection of unedited takes. The song is "I'm a Dreamer, Aren't We All," and only the singer is in traditional costume, but the musicians are wearing headbands. A comment on the one I saw before identified the singer and said she was a star in Japan in her day. th-cam.com/video/obFfbmeqkQE/w-d-xo.html
興味深い考察で、非常に楽しめました。 ただ気になったのは、日本には「漫画」「まんが」「マンガ」という3種類の表記が存在し、この三つが微妙に違った意味合いで使われたり、違った印象で受け取られている、ということが説明されていないということです。日本人でも世代によって感覚が違うかもしれませんが。 私の個人的感覚からすると（ちなみに私は50代半ばです）、「漫画」は歴史的経緯や大きな枠組みを含んだ言葉であり、それゆえ、「『Manga』の起源が12世紀の絵巻物『鳥獣戯画』にはない」という言い方は違和感があります。ですが、同時に、あなたの言うように「『マンガ』の根っこは日本もアメリカも同じである」という言説にもうなづけます。というのはここでいうMangaはカタカナの『マンガ』だからです。『マンガ』という表記は「現代の一般的なストーリー・マンガ」という意味合いが大きいのです。 なお、「まんが」については低年齢層を対象としたマンガを指す意味で使われることが多いと考えていますが、ここでは触れないことにします。 英語で説明する際、「漫画」と「マンガ」が「Manga」というワードで十把一絡げになってしまうのは、日本人のオタクとしてはなんともちょっぴり気持ち悪いのです（笑）。ですが、一般的なアメリカの人に「カタカナ」「漢字」のニュアンスの違いから説明するのは大変ですので、あなたのようにバッサリと「Mangaの起源は鳥獣戯画ではない」と断じてもしかたのないことかもしれません。個人的には「マンガ（カタカナ表記）の起源は鳥獣戯画ではない」と言って欲しいところですが。 （個人的には鳥獣戯画はむしろアニメーションの元祖なのでは？とも思ったりします（笑）） そういえば「アニメーション（Or "Animation"）」と言えば、アメリカでは「Anime」は日本に特有のスタイルのアニメーションを指す言葉で使われていると聞きますが、日本では「アニメ」は、「ディズニー・アニメ」「トムとジェリーのアニメ」等、日本のアニメも含む、アニメーション全般を指す言葉として使われています。アメリカの人からすると「『トムとジェリー』がなんでAnimeなの？ 」ということになるんでしょうけど。 興味深いのは、このビデオの日本語字幕です。明らかに意図を持って「漫画」と「マンガ」が使い分けられていて、内容が──完全では何しても──より正確な表現になっているのです。一方、英語音声および英語字幕ではその違いは表現できておらず、英語の説明を聞いているだけではではちょっとミスリードされてしまいまう内容になっていると思います。 I enjoyed your insightful analysis on Manga history. However, I am not 100 percent satisfied with your explanation, because of the absence of discussion regarding the "Manga"'s three different terms used in Japan: "漫画 Manga (in Kanji)," "まんが Manga (in Hiragana)," and "マンガ Manga (in Katakana). These three are perceived differently, although how you take those terms may slightly differ even among Japanese people, depending on what age group you are in, I guess . From my personal point of view (I'm in mid-50s by the way), "漫画 Manga (in Kanji)" encompasses historical contexts and broader frameworks, hence, when in written in that way, your recognition that the origin of Manga can not be traced back to 12th century Choujugiga picture scroll is not quite right. But, at the same time, I can agree with your assertion that Manga and American (or Western) comics share the same origins, as long as the term "Manga" is expressed in Katakana, since "マンガ Manga (in Katakana)" largely signifies "modern mainstream narrative manga." Regarding "まんが Manga (in Hiragana)," I believe it's often used to refer to manga aimed at younger readers, but let's not delve into that here. Thus, It's somewhat discomforting and frustrating for Japanese otaku like me that "Manga (in Kanji)," and "Manga (in Katakana)" are treated the same under the singe term "Manga (in English)." However, thinking that distinguishing the differences between the two would be too complicated for non-native Japanese speakers like American people, the way you say about it might just be a necessary compromise - although "the origin of Manga (in Katakana) is not in the Chojugiga scroll," is the way I prefer to put it. (Personally, I wonder if Chojugiga might be the precursor to animation rather than the manga :)) Speaking of "Anime" or "Animation," I've heard that in America "Anime" refers specifically to the Japanese styled animation, whereas, in Japan, "アニメ(Anime)" includes all kinds of animation, often spoken like "Disney Anime" or "Tom and Jerry Anime," which might puzzle American fans." Interestingly, I find Japanese subtitles for this video more accurately put, if not perfectly, in terms of the two words, "漫画 Manga (in Kanji)" and "マンガ Manga (in Katakana). They are used differently, and with purpose, whereas in your speakings (and English subtitles), they aren't, which is a little misleading, in my opinion.
Thank you for your comment. The question of how to write "manga" is actually a fairly complicated one! Although "漫画 = political cartoons and/or prewar comics; マンガ = post-Tezuka comics; まんが = child-friendly material and/or universal term" is often used as a rough division, historically it hasn't been that clear. マンガ is already used in the 1920s, for example. Likewise, the 1960s magazine Garo used 漫画 in its title, as did 漫画アクション (Manga Action). The Chojugiga is only associated with manga because Japanese cartoonists started claiming it as an ancestor because it had been designated a national treasure, so claiming it as the original manga made their own work seem more respectable and associated with officially recognized "high art." The earliest claim to the Chojugiga as manga that I've found was Ippei Okamoto, who does not appear to have produced anything that shows influence by the Chojugiga. It also isn't related to animation. There is no historical evidence for a connection between manga/anime and the Chojugiga. The association started as an effort to boost the prestige of manga and has been embraced by the government (and Japanophiles) to brand manga as specifically Japanese.
I've been following your Instagram for a while now, and there's many, many gems in there. I'm looking forward to more. Good luck! And thanks for all the original research you're doing.
Not so much in the early 1940s, but there were licensed American comics in Japanese magazines in the late 1940s and U.S. soldiers brought along plenty of comic books.
Very clear explanation. Thank You. A prior researcher in manga was Ryan Holmberg that has been active for more than a decade. But the nail needs to be hit on it's head. Best regards, Ph.Capart.
Haha yes, Ryan and I know each other. He focuses mainly on the period between 1945 and 1970. Follow him on Instagram at @mangaberg if you don't already. I also recommend his recent translation of Bat Kid, and apparently one of Igaguri-kun is in the works as well, with articles on their historical background!
The simple answer is that I'm doing research and writing, as well as paid work to sustain said research and writing, and don't have enough time/energy to grow a TH-cam channel to the point where I could monetize it to replace the paid work. I was hoping the video would lead to more sales of my book(s), but it hasn't had a measurable impact, so I haven't had much reason to make more videos. Well-researched, well-made videos take a lot of time (that's why most good-looking videos are sloppily researched and why there's so much bs on TH-cam; see those videos on manga history that look nice but are just based on Wikipedia summaries). I'll probably make another one to promote the second book, though. Anyone who wants to support my work should buy my books (preferably ebook, because the royalties are higher, but I'm grateful for any copy sold; links at eikeexner.com/books). I guess I could also make a Patreon, but that usually requires a larger existing subscriber base.
What they play in Japan and call "baseball" has nothing to do with American baseball. It originated in certain sword fighting practices and training procedures dating back to 14th Century Japan where young soldiers would train to improve their sword fighting techniques by trying to slice oranges and grapefruits tossed at them by instructors. The resemblance to American baseball is purely a coincidence.
It's funny you say that because I too like to use baseball as an example of how silly the "manga evolved out of ancient practices" and "these are fundamentally different traditions" claims are. Stay tuned for my video "Why Based Yakyu Is Outselling Woke American Baseball"
@@eikeexner3029 As a lifelong baseball fan I no longer follow the sport, but not because of wokeness. I drifted away before that. Analytics ruined baseball. Changes it from being a spontaneous game to an exercise in statistics and probabilities and rendered it mindlessly dull. I'll have to check out your video to see your take.
@@RRaquello Sorry, that was supposed to be a joke making fun of a popular video with the idiotic title "why manga beats woke american comics" or something like that :-)
@@eikeexner3029 You know I saw a video in my recommendations on with as title something like "Why Japanese Baseball Beats Woke MLB" so I thought maybe that was the video you were talking about making. That's how it works in modern USA--anything that is originally proposed as a joke eventually becomes real.
Will definitely consider it! It just takes a long time to plan, film, and edit, and I need to work for a living and also do more research (working on a second book)...
Your passion is palpable! Thanks for sharing your research with us. It’s a great example of the fluid nature of culture over time as well as the potential different cultural traditions have to converge and diverge in cycles! #manga #mangalove #comics #history 📜❌ 🗞🎨 ✅ 🧑🎨👨🏾🎤🥷🧚♂️🤴🦹♂️🤰🏾🤱🏾
That's great! What sources did you find that helped you come to that conclusion? It's frustrating how much BS is on the internet, so I'm glad there's some accurate stuff as well.
I remember reading year ago (20+) that Tezuka went with the big eyes looks for his characters because he was looking up to Disney's characters. While I, and neither the person writing that article, knew about all the material you were able to find, it was clear that in some way comics were crossing the Pacific and reaching Japanese kids. One thing that is not clear to me is if the link between modern manga and middle-aged drawings was a Japanese or an Occidental idea.
@@eikeexner3029 I focused in academic articles about the taisho era, and those articles that related to mass art like graphic design and advertisement. I was interestef in the social changes that influenced the adoption of some western style design.
@@eikeexner3029 there are many kids online that still need to go deeper before getting to a conclusion and leave emotions behind. When they mature will see things clearer, mean while i just dont mind too much on comments discussions.
Great video - In the early Tezuka spread 'Dagwood' from 'Blondie' is talking to 'Jiggs'. To the left of Dagwood is 'Betty Boop' - I suspect they all might be famous characters... You might like to look at the Scottish comic 'The Glasgow Looking Glass' from 1825, the worlds first comic, and thought to be the earliest known use of speech balloons.
Yeah, they're all characters from other strips, both Japanese and foreign. I highlighted the ones I figured everyone would recognize at first glance. I'm familiar with The Glasgow Looking Glass and know which cartoon you're referring to. It does look astonishingly modern, but if you look at it closely, you'll find that the four panels with speech balloons are four separate scenes! Although they look very much like contemporary speech balloons, if they were intended as sound, why didn't anyone at the time think of creating a scene using such balloons over multiple panels?
@@eikeexner3029 Two of the panels on the front of The Glasgow Looking Glass #1 are conversations, suggesting a passage of time within the panel, but yes they are still single panels. It's an interesting move forward from single panel political cartoons that also used speech bubbles as conversation, such as 'The Triumph of Caesar' (1757) by George Townsend. Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Do you have a link to those? All of the examples from the Looking Glass that I've seen look like this one: depart.gr.176-31-41-131.ns3.hs-servers.gr/datafiles/image-20160314-11299-1t3pkn5(1).jpg As you can see, the balloons aren't part of a "real-life" conversation between 'real' people. This is true for basically all early 'speech' balloons before the 1890s. Comics scholar Thierry Smolderen has written about this in his book The Origins of Comics and an article called Of Labels, Loops, and Bubbles. I only realized the split between word/speech balloons before and after the advent of sound recording technology after reading his work. There are people vehemently opposed to this theory (mostly those invested in the idea that "comics" have existed throughout human history), but no one has been able to come up with an alternative theory for why we don't see balloon-based conversations in non-metaphorical cartoons over multiple panels before the 1890s.
I'm here because of Neil Gaiman. Hope more people watch this informative, well researched history of early Manga origins. Nice work and thanks for sharing.
So, was the market for Japanese-made comics already very large before 1950? do other japanese media also suffer from these lies? How the kamishibai market for example?
That's a complicated question because most comics pre-1950s were used to sell newspapers and magazines featuring other content as well, so it's hard to know how many people bought publications specifically for comics... There were cartoon magazines, but no long narrative comics until the 1930s, when Norakuro anthologies (which originally were adaptations of the Shonen Club comic strip, but then diverged significantly) sparked a boom in stand-alone comic books (actual books, not the thin American "comic book" type) by Nakamura Shoten and Kodansha (and some others). Even the first modern kids manga magazines in the late 1940s and early 1950s still featured non-comics stuff (like serialized novels) and were originally primarily *kids* magazines rather than *comics* magazines. But it does look like the Japanese comics "market" (based on how many publications featuring at least some comics were in circulation) until the mid-1950s was second in the world only to the Unites States (where comics crater around 1954 due to the anti-comics backlash and the Comics Code). I don't quite understand what you mean by "also suffer from these lies." There's been some effort to tie anime to medieval picture scrolls, but in that case the connection to modern technology is so obvious that it's been a lot harder to pull that off. Since most people assume that comics could have existed at any point in history, it's much easier to imply that there's a lineage with centuries-old art. Same with video games. People would just laugh at someone saying Final Fantasy evolved out of Shogi or Sugoroku. Kamishibai has frequently been tied to manga, but I haven't found much direct connection between the two. There actually were two distinct forms of kamishibai: one in which cutouts of drawn characters on sticks were used to literally perform a play (kind of like Punch and Judy stuff), and one in which a narrator simply cycled through a series of pictures while telling a story (There's a Japanese book called OH! Manga that has drawings of both types). The latter is what most people think of when they talk about kamishibai. Several artists who drew comics also drew kamishibai (the latter type at least), and of course there's the famous case of Golden Bat, a character that jumped from kamishibai to comics. But I haven't seen any evidence of direct influence. Rather, it seems like kamishibai, due to being drawn, was an art form adjacent to cartooning and comics, just like drawing illustrations or advertisements, which some mangaka did as well (to make money). The people drawing the kamishibai were not the same ones who did the actual performing by the way (this is often not clarified in texts about kamishibai).
@@eikeexner3029 Thanks for the answer. With lies, I meant the idea of "Japanese purity" in production. I had no idea that the Japanese market was so much before the 60's. And do you know more or less what the origin of emonogatari is? Can it be considered comic?
@@hardweeb1959 Regarding the "purity" of Japanese origins, there's a fascinating book about the concept of "bushido," by the way, which claims that it was mostly a translation of the English "chivalry." It's called "Inventing the Way of the Samurai: Nationalism, Internationalism, and Bushido in Modern Japan," by Oleg Benesch. Emonogatari in the sense of picture stories most likely go back to translations of Wilhelm Busch's picture stories (since Rodolphe Töpffer wasn't translated into Japanese at the time), as well as material published in European and American humor magazines and then copied or adapted in Japan. There were plenty of cartoons and picture stories from magazines like Judge, Puck, Punch, Fliegende Blätter etc. in Meiji-period Japan. Unfortunately there's no universally accepted definition of "comic," so whether picture stories can be considered comics depends on your own definition :-) I would say no, because what came to be called "comics" historically was fundamentally different from picture stories (since comics basically work like movies and evolved out of pantomime cartoons), but obviously people like Scott McCloud and David Kunzle have their own, quite different definitions of what constitutes "comics"... I had a somewhat frustrating discussion about this point in a presentation for the NY Picture Story and Comics Symposium earlier this year, which is also on TH-cam, if you're curious about this. I don't know if the Q&A was included in the video, but if it is you can see me roll my eyes at one point. Some people feel *very* strongly about the history of comics.
@@eikeexner3029 I will definitely check out this book and this video, I'm new to this manga business. I'm someone who tends to read more about the thing than the thing itself, I have a lot more information than experiences. That's when I found your channel, a wonderful find. I saw your article on the 10 manga myths, fascinating. I will buy your book asap, you have a fan now.
Fascinating. It always bothered me how western fans of Japanese comics and cartoons separate them off. There are differences in the stylistic traditions, but the same goes for European vs American comics. Similarly, people tend to refer to their *form* as if it was a genre unto itself. Any story you can imagine is told in comics or animated films, as is the case in Europe and North America, so when you say „I love Manga“ referring to Japanese comics, it doesn’t actually mean anything.
Completely agree. It's similar to when people use "comics" as a synonym for "superheroes." Mainstream American comics also used to be much more diverse before 1954 (though we're seeing a resurgence today; it's just that only superhero comics became an *industry* comparable to the manga publishing industry in Japan).
@@eikeexner3029 Indeed. I'm no comics expert, but have delved into German comics and am vaguely familiar with a couple of key French ones. And when you start looking into European comics, you can see there is a very rich and creative tradition. Some books are a true amalgamation of the literary and visual arts, and could stand toe to toe with some of the great literary works. And as fun as American superheroes are, their content and tone couldn't be more different from many European books.
I had to draw the line somewhere (regarding how many things unrelated to modern manga I should include). :-) For the record, there is no evidence that 黄表紙 (kibyoshi - a type of 18th/19th century Japanese picture story) exerted influence on the development of comics in Japan. I believe there's a contemporary mangaka who has made some comics that incorporate kibyoshi elements, but that doesn't mean kibyoshi were relevant to the creation/adoption of comics in Japan as a storytelling medium.
@@eikeexner3029 Your claim that there is "no evidence" has no evidence. You deliberately ignored the existence of Japan's wealth of ``illustrated novels.'' This is because it has a much more ``comic book'' appearance than the childish ``series of pictures with text'' found in American newspapers. Its existence is inconvenient for those of you who want to draw conclusions in a specific direction. It's not academic.
"Balloons" that represent what's inside a character's head are a Japanese invention. It appears in a 1775 ukiyo-e print. Also, the sequence of pictures and explanations is common in books of that era. Japan was certainly ahead of the United States in these areas. Rather, you should look into Europe. Americans often joke that ``movies, anime, and automobiles have their roots in America.'' American manga may also have roots somewhere in Europe.
Ohh, are you referring to the Google knowledge panel? Those are automatically generated from book author data. For a while they were using someone else's picture with it lol
I'm not sure if that was the intention but personally I feel that the argument you're proposing is fairly reductive if not sensationalist to the history of the medium. There is no doubt that early translations of western comics had a huge role in the history and prehistory of modern manga - and I don't know a single person that would deny that - but completely ignoring the Japanese side of the argument really feels like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Early in the video when you mentioned there is no real connection between traditional art and the birth of modern manga for example wouldn't 1900s artists like Kiyoshi Kobayakawa (which you can follow up in quick succession with someone like Junichi Nakahara of course which is even more heavily connected to 50s to modern shoujo aesthetics) be a counter argument to that? While yes you can say that both nihonga artists and not had western inspirations among others, given the inherent nature of living in the Meiji/Taisho era (and also the fact that obviously every artist living on the face of the planet will have numerous inspirations) I can't imagine that would mean that is absolutely no connection when it comes to traditional japanese art and manga origins/evolution.
I know from experience with similar comments that it's unlikely there's anything I could say to change your mind, but here we go anyway: Let's start with this: "no doubt that early translations of western comics had a huge role in the history and prehistory of modern manga - and I don't know a single person that would deny that" I guess it might be true that no one with a reputation to lose would outright *deny* the role of "western" comics in the history of Japanese ones (I would disagree with the framing that there's some kind of fundamental difference here to begin with), if directly challenged in public. Unfortunately that's not really how things work. People can and do simply portray manga as something fundamentally different from comics and ignore whatever doesn't fit that view. You can watch plenty of videos and read entire books on manga without ever even learning about Bringing Up Father. How many people would know the answer if you asked them what the longest running pre-1945 manga was? Also, I'm not exactly pulling this stuff from google searches, so it's funny to me to suggest that I'm simply rehashing stuff that 'everyone already knows.' Anyways, there is a systemic minimization of this history by Japanophiles and people with vested interests in portraying manga as something essentially Japanese (including the Japanese government, which actively promotes this narrative), and this video is meant to counteract this minimization. "Throwing the baby out with the bathwater" implies that harm is being done. Might I ask what is being harmed? Japanese national pride? I find the phrase "the Japanese side of the argument" rather interesting in this context. What exactly is "the Japanese side"? Bunshiro Suzuki was Japanese when he decided that Bringing Up Father would probably be a hit in Japan. Ryuichi Yokoyama was Japanese when he lettered Bringing Up Father in Japanese. Yutaka Aso was Japanese when he created the first Japanese-drawn long-lived modern comic strip. The hundreds of thousands of readers like Osamu Tezuka who read these translated comics were Japanese... Almost all of this history is Japanese people doing things in Japan, but for some reason it's not "the Japanese side of the argument." (There's actually a fascinating current in Japanese manga historiography where Bringing Up Father is only mentioned as an influence on Nonki na tosan, but not as popular in its own right, as if something created by a foreigner could not truly have been a huge part of Japanese history or culture, or been popular with Japanese people, but that's another story.) Lastly, regarding domestic influence by pre-1923 Japanese artists on later Japanese comics: this is a fundamental misunderstanding of my point, which is about comics as a *medium* in the sense of stories mainly told via sequential panels across which characters have conversations via speech balloons. The comment is talking about *style* (and after the war at that). My whole point is that the basic structure of the medium evolved in one place in response to specific material conditions and then spread around the world during the 1920s and 1930s, and didn't mysteriously emerge out of a centuries-old domestic tradition. This is evident if you look at France, China, and Thailand too, by the way, and almost certainly true for every other country connected to global currents during that time as well.
Just as Disney and Fleischer served as inspirations for Manga, it is equally fair to acknowledge that the Archie comics' style of drawing, characterized by big eyes on its characters, also played a significant role. Manga artists appreciated the way the eyes were drawn large, as it bestowed the Archie characters with what can be described as 'Soulful Eyes,' resembling windows to the soul. Among the three artists who contributed to the drawing of Archie characters-Bob Montana, Harry Lucy, and Dan DeCarlo-DeCarlo was the most favored. This preference stemmed from his superior cartoon style and his skillful ability at drawing pretty, attractive girls with appeal such as Betty and Veronica.
"Manga artists" - Who, concretely, and what are some concrete sources? I have not come across evidence for a noticeable impact of Archie comics in Japan, so I'm highly skeptical of this claim.
Lol you're not the first person to ask me about this. I was just trying not to be pretentious, but you're right, it doesn't make sense to call it man-gah, since muhng-gah is much closer to the Japanese pronunciation.
@eikeexner3029 no I didn't mean wrong sorry I'm bad at wording like I meant manga was made before modern day comics and was made over thousands of years of evolution I apologize for the bad wording btw
Small, but important correction: Kitazawa succeeded Imaizumi in 1899 (not 1902). 1902 is when the Jiji Manga page started, but Kitazawa had started drawing individual cartoons for the Jiji Shinpo three years prior to that!
The most insightful and understandable history of Manga that I’ve seen. Appreciate the insights into how other media and technology, such as cartoons with speech bubbles and sound recording, influence the form and structure of emergent new media as was the case with Manga. Thank you!
Aw, thank you very much!
Fascinating! Thanks for making this video and including all the great art examples!
Glad you enjoyed it!
As someone who loves to learn about history, this video was amazing! It was easy to follow and understand at the same time, thank you for publishing it!
Aw thanks! I'm very happy to hear that!
Amazing video! Very well researched and shed some light on a lot of under researched history. Definitely will be checking out your book!
Thank you very much!
I'm impressed with the insight and dedication. Great one!
This is beyond incredible! Thank you for this, I was researching the topic (tired from the hokusai thing as well, I was prompted to search). Great work! I wish to see more videos showcasing your deep knowledge of the subject, this is simply invaluable.
Aw, thank you! I'll probably make more videos once the next book comes out.
@eikeexner3029 I even made a presentation in my manga/comic courses and referenced&credited your article and name, the phonograph hypothesis, in particular)
This was amazing. I could not look away the entire time. I'd love to know what other mangaka around Tezukas period had different art styles. Just to get an idea of what modern anime and manga could have looked like
What a great video! I've wondered about the origins of manga and the "convergent evolution" with american comics, I always found the widespread narrative about medieval drawings pretty unconvinving so it's nice to come across an actually well researched discussion on the topic
I didn't know, this was relevant to my interests, but this was very entertaining and informative to watch! Excellent research and presentation. Und eine Wonne, das Wilhelm Busch eine Erwähnung gefunden hat!
Vielen Dank!
I was led here by Professor Ashmore's recommendation. I had known about a lot of the information that you discuss, but I was one of the readers led astray by the erroneous "origin", so watching this gave me a new and original view of the subject. As a lover of the Ninth Art, and an admirer of comic art, from the Americas, Europe and Japan, this video helps ties all the influences of comic art from all over the world.
glad you were the first search result when looking for this topic. Great video and thank you for your research!
Oh, thank you very much! I'm happy to hear that!
I hope this video gains more attention. Having no access to information about Manga history as a child I felt like there had to be a connection to early American comic strips due to certain visual gags being similar between the cultures, some of which have fallen out of fashion in the US, but this research makes the connection vastly more important then a mere footnote.
Thank you! That's a big reason I decided to make the video. There's just so much half-baked or outright mis-information out there... Obviously there's only so much info I could pack into a video, but check out the book if you're interested in this subject m(_ _)m
Is your pfp Neko-musume from GeGeGe no Kitarō?
This is an incredible video--I feel privileged to have found it. I hope to be owner of your book soon
Aw, thank you, that's very kind of you
Hi from Uruguay! Geat to find more sources of information on this topic. Keep it up!
Thank you so much, that's very kind of you!
This is brilliant!
Hope to see more content as well informed
Thank you very much, will probably make more content once the next book is coming out!
I always assumed manga and modern comics had a similar origin and people would always argue and bring up that 12th century scroll. Thanks for all the clarification, always good to know you were right even if it’s a decade late lol.
Wow I didn’t think I could still have my whole world flipped upside down like that! I’m in art college for sequential art/comics so I had to take a sequential art history class and none of these ideas were ever mentioned! We just got the general “inked scrolls to manga” pipeline, which never made that much sense but I never really questioned it, just thought I wasn’t getting it somehow. But this changes the game! My professor was a very knowledgeable guy and was working on his phd at the time, but he was definitely much more versed in western comic history lol. I love relearning things like this and filling in the gaps I didn’t even know I had. Thanks so much!
Yeah, I had the same experience, thinking "this doesn't *really* make sense...", which led me down this rabbit hole for my PhD research. I'm glad the video was helpful!
Very interesting vid! Just bought your book right after watching. Looking forward to reading it.
Thank you so much! I hope you'll find it interesting!
Im majoring in Manga in a Japanese University and this basically sums up everything my teacher was talking about in the classes but for some reason he didnt give us any documents (we have to be at the school in person to read books)(also learning in japanese is obviously harder). Now I can maybe actually write this report thank you so much! m-.-m
I'm studying Japanese studies at University, and according to our professor Hokusai was the inventor of the term "Manga". So if what you say is true, wich I believe it is, they learn us wrong facts (wich doesn't surprise me tbh). Anyway, thanks for the video it was very informative and accurate!
Yeah, that's a persistent myth, but false. The word probably did become far more widely known because of the Hokusai Manga, but there are multiple uses of the word in Japanese texts before Hokusai. I discuss this in some detail in my book (page 15 and 206-7), if your professor asks you for a source!
I am here because Neil Gaiman shared this video and I am hoping more people will do the same. Not only I learned a lot, I am also really inclined to buying your book. Great job!
Thanks for mentioning this! I was a bit confused why the view count had jumped up by 1k in a day haha
Where did he share it?
@@kevin4680 he tweeted about it
Absolutely fantastic video essay, thank you for making this! Just a very small thing I noticed is that the more or less literal translation of manga is "whimsical pictures", whereas you mention that manga translates to "sketches or drawings in general". This is only a very minor point but is important in regards to mangas history and how it would come to evolve in the 60s.
You see, mainstream manga in the 50s were almost always aimed at children, with Tezuka at the helm for many of these. This eventually led to Yoshihiro Tatsumi coining the term 'Gekiga', which literally translates to "dramatic pictures". Gekiga was much more violent than manga, along with tackling heavy themes targeting a more mature demographic. Gekiga was essentially what would go on to be seinen manga, as Tezuka would also start making gekiga which on the whole made the 'genre' much more popular (popular Gegika from Tezuka include Message to Adolf, Ayako, MW, Ode to Kirihito, amongst others).
I realise this is not really related to the origins of manga, but nevertheless it's still some great information for anybody who may be interested! The most famous gekiga is undoubtedly Lone Wolf and Cub, penned by the legendary Kazuo Koike with art by the seminal Goseki Kojima. The pair would also go on to make Samurai Executioner, which would be serialised at the same time as LW&C, along with Path of the Assassin later down the line.
Thank you for the kind compliment.
Regarding your comment about language: unfortunately it's not quite that simple. First, there is no "more or less literal translation" of manga, because the term manga, like virtually all categories we use outside of basic physical phenomena, is a 'social construct' and subject to change. "Whimsical pictures" I believe was coined by Fred Schodt in his Manga! Manga! and quickly spread from there because for a long time it was virtually the only English-language book on manga. Manga before Imaizumi and Kitazawa was indeed used as a synonym for "sketches" before it started being used to describe caricature and cartooning, before then describing picture stories and comics.
"Gekiga" was similarly ambiguous. Some artists whose works were described as gekiga did not use the term, and even those who used it couldn't agree on what it meant. It only entered the popular lexicon during the late 1960s because of Saito Takao's insistence on using it. As a result it became largely associated with Saito's style: gritty, with forceful black linework, and characters with bushy eyebrows. A Jump editor has joked that the way to distinguish "manga" and "gekiga" is that manga has big round eyes and gekiga small rectangular ones. Tatsumi's "gekiga" look very different from Saito's "gekiga." These words do not have an absolute, clearly defined meaning.
The same is true for "seinen manga," which is a demographic term rather than a stylistic or narrative one, since it derives from the target audience of the magazines comics later labeled "seinen manga" were published in (i.e. magazines targeting "seinen," young men). So it's not quite correct to say that "gekiga" became "seinen manga." Shonen/shojo/seinen/josei are rather useless terms when discussing manga to begin with, in my opinion, precisely because they're so vague and broad. But the reason why there is overlap between works described as gekiga and works described as seinen manga is obviously because the styles and subject matter of works like Lone Wolf and Cub were considered most suitable for young men (seinen). It doesn't make sense to call Saito's Muyonosuke a fundamentally different category ("shonen manga") from Lone Wolf and Cub ("seinen manga") though, other than the target demographics of the magazines in which they were originally featured. And even "Boys' Magazine" (Shonen Magajin) wasn't primarily read by boys anymore in the late 1960s. It's readership had become primarily adult by then and the magazine even considered dropping the word shonen from its title at the time.
In short, all of these words and categories have unstable and changing meanings, which makes it impossible to say that a given term "means" this or that without careful explanation.
Fascinating. Just found this video and learned a lot. Well done. Will look for your book.
Thank you!
一枚の絵に長い文章が付く娯楽や報道ってのは江戸時代からあるんですが、今日的な意味での漫画とは別物ですね。
日本で本格的に「絵が動き出した」のは、やっぱり1920年代くらいで間違いないと思います。
さらに敗戦後の焼け野原で、娯楽に飢えた日本人が、安価な娯楽を渇望したのも後の発展に影響したかもしれません。この時期には、ハリウッドの影響も大きかった、って話も聞きます。
ただアメリカでは後に、規制やら何やらで、かなり苦労することになったようですけども（ミッキーとか、スヌーピーとかガーフィールドなんかはまた別格ですけども）。
一つの作品に一つの世界じゃなくて、一つの出版社に一つの世界ってのは、なかなか新鮮な感覚ではあります。
あとそうそう、コマの進む向きなんですが、日本語は伝統的に縦書きで、左へ改行する習慣があったので、横書きで右から左に向かって書いていたのも実は、一文字ごとに改行する感覚だったようです。
戦後は横書きを左から右に書くようになりましたけど、縦書きや漫画では、右から左に進む習慣が残ってますね。
I enjoyed this a lot, thank you
I was looking for these answers for some time! Thank you so much for this knowledge :)
Also I would like to buy your book, but digital version. Please consider it in the future, for everyone with extreme shipping costs :)
Very happy to hear that!
@@vely1341 I actually wish the book were cheaper, but unfortunately the publisher decides pricing and such :-( Comics and the Origins of Manga is available as an e-book, however! Rutgers University Press also occasionally has discounts for direct sales. Right now all their books are 50% off (www.rutgersuniversitypress.org/spring-sale#!). Shipping still applies for orders shipped outside of the U.S., but the 50% off might make up for that (but the e-book should also be 50% off and obviously no shipping there). This is the direct link, and "ROVER21" is the current discount code: www.rutgersuniversitypress.org/comics-and-the-origins-of-manga/9781978827226
It is such a great video. I cant believe it only has 8k views
Thank you 🙂
This further proves my own personal opinion..."manga and comics arent seperate mediums". Ill never understand why fans treat them like they arent the same medium.
Because of the type of stories that come out of them
It depends how one defines medium in this sense. Are film and television the same medium? They both use the same techniques, technology, and basic storytelling elements (even many of the same artists). But their conventions and distributions are often so widely distinct that it seems important enough to draw that line. They're too broad to define merely as genres of the same medium, but have entirely different expectations from their respective audiences. It may not have started out that way, but the artforms evolved, just as comics and manga have diverged.
All manga are comics but not all comics are manga. Manga is a subset of the comic medium and same with Bandee Desinee or Historietas which are used to designate the Franco Belgian and Spanish comics. In general historically the production and distribution of comics has lead to different subsets and people tend to be fans of one of the other or make distinction between the outputs of different industries within the medium. In general you can even see for example a lot of TH-cam channels self-select if they cover comics or manga exclusively for example meaning there is a value in distinguishing between them.
Thank you so much for this. I have a presentation about Manga and the only resource I have been given was a book by John Allen called Anime and Manga. I think your opinion on how Hokusai did not start today's manga will look a little controversial in my teacher's eyes but I truly think people deserve to know the truth and not rely on books that are somewhat ''outdated''. I have included so much from your speech and wish you a great journey on your life. Thanks again 🍀🌸
I'm happy to hear that! Sounds like your teacher should read Comics and the Origins of Manga...
@@eikeexner3029 To be fair, I believe he‘s just following what our Academics are telling him to. But he really liked the presentation and was very open minded about it! ^_^
It was a great experience, thank you for sharing your knowledge . ヾ（*⌒ヮ⌒*）ゞ
I imagine being a young japanese boy in 1923 reading this comic. I'm going to be obsessed with this speech bubble drawn narrative, some could say I'm an otaku of it?
This has been one of the most concise history of manga on this platform!
Thank you, I'm glad you liked it
Bro, wtf are these views!!! This video is amazing and added so much to my presentation at school about Japanese pop culture!
Why aren't people watching this?!
Haha thank you! your comment made my day
Good video!! Hope you make more
Thank you! I'll probably make more once I'm done with the next book.
Great video!
Excellent sleuthing! You have separated semantics from substance, revealed history, and contribute to new knowledge.
Thank you! Please help spread the word!
legendary video. this needs to be seen by more eyes!
Thank you kindly. Feel free to spread the word :-)
This was very informative and interesting, thanks a lot!
Thanks, it always makes my day when someone finds my research useful!
Great and interesting presentation, well presented! Thanks, teach!
I spent like a week in that freezing attic and then another week editing, so it makes me really happy every time someone finds this video useful! Thank you!
@@eikeexner3029 Like many of my advanced years I discovered manga in the 1980s, although we'd already been introduced to it via Astro Boy and Frank Miller's Ronin. We just hadn't realized it. Then Viz started flooding the market with outstanding titles like Crying Freeman, Mai, and Kamui. Then I discovered the Japanese editions of Akira and it just goes from there (not unlike the discovery of the Franco-Belgium "album" via Asterix. Your analysis demystifies the origins of the genre, but makes much more sense. A humble medium with humble origins.
Interesting explanation on the origins of modern manga. I think it would be very interesting if you created a video about the business aspect of the modern manga industry, such as how magazines determine which series is profitable and which should be discontinued. I hope to see more of your content in the future. Cheers.
Maybe once my next book is out! The combination of 1) anthology magazines not tied to individual franchises that are 2) published by major national publishing houses with more resources than the small independent publishers seen in other countries in my opinion was the primary reason why Japan developed the world's largest comics industry btw.
I loved this, you are a legend
Aw thank you
Your research should be plugged into every beginning or some part in the beginning of every single Manga history book now.
ever since pirating so many American comic books and Japanese manga, It started rubbing the me the wrong way that all manga before Tezuka is formed from Hokusai ideas. Thank you for informing my long held suspicion.
Good to see that translatorial woes truly has not changed as the ages come and go.
日本では漫画の話をする場合、手塚治虫を遡って話すことはあまりないから、非常におもしろかった。
正直言って、鳥獣戯画などを漫画の始祖と呼ぶのは無理があるよなぁとは思っていた。
ありがとうございます そう言っていただけて嬉しいです！
開国後アメリカから輸入したコミックのコマ割りなどの文化を漫画に取り入れたことで漫画はコミックになった。漫画とコミックはワードの起源こそ違うがコミックと何ら変わりない物で正しい。
excellent video! I will say the little text you add here and there in the video gets covered up by the subtitles though, but otherwise everything was very well laid out.
I'll keep that in mind for future ones!
Excellent, will look for your book on Amazon!
Wow, thank you so much!
I enjoyed this video and learned from it. I also liked the old recordings -- what are they? You may have seen the film of a Japanese jazz band and singer in the early 1930s elsewhere on TH-cam. Jazz, like comic strips, went all over the world.
Haha thank you! I spent hours looking for appropriate music and finding good clips to use.
The songs are "Asakusa Koshinkyoku" (浅草行進曲), "Yagibushi" (八木節), "Kigen Nisen-roppyaku-nen" (紀元2600年), "Dotonbori Koshinkyoku" (道頓堀行進曲), and "Nonkibushi" (呑気節). You can find different version of all of them on TH-cam!
Yes, you're completely right about jazz! I haven't seen the film you're referring to, but there are references to jazz in Japanese comics during that time period as well, and many Japanese jazz records from the time survive. Jazz, cafes, and comics were all part of a global modern urban culture at the time (in the imperialist centers at least).
@@eikeexner3029 After I wrote that, I went looking for the film and couldn't find it. It has apparently been removed. I remember it was from 1932, that the singer was a well known one, and she and the band were in traditional Japanese dress. The song was an American tune but she sang Japanese lyrics. Jazz was very popular in Japan as it was everywhere then. I have a Japanese issue of a 1930s Louis Armstrong record. And of course JVC stands for Japanese Victor Company.
@@TuanBasikal That's too bad... Btw, if I remember correctly, this book has a bunch of lists of records published in Japan in the 1920s and 1930s, if you read Japanese and can get your hands on a copy: ndlonline.ndl.go.jp/#!/detail/R300000001-I000001347488-00
Found it! Or a version of it... the one I saw before was the finished, edited version, and this is a collection of unedited takes. The song is "I'm a Dreamer, Aren't We All," and only the singer is in traditional costume, but the musicians are wearing headbands. A comment on the one I saw before identified the singer and said she was a star in Japan in her day. th-cam.com/video/obFfbmeqkQE/w-d-xo.html
Awesome study. Much appreciated.
This is inspiring !!! Thank You for This amazing research ! I will Buy your book soon. Hi from Colombia 🌞
Thanks a lot!!
Excellent. This and you are excellent.
haha thank you, that made my day
I msgd you on ig. No issue if India or but let me know
興味深い考察で、非常に楽しめました。
ただ気になったのは、日本には「漫画」「まんが」「マンガ」という3種類の表記が存在し、この三つが微妙に違った意味合いで使われたり、違った印象で受け取られている、ということが説明されていないということです。日本人でも世代によって感覚が違うかもしれませんが。
私の個人的感覚からすると（ちなみに私は50代半ばです）、「漫画」は歴史的経緯や大きな枠組みを含んだ言葉であり、それゆえ、「『Manga』の起源が12世紀の絵巻物『鳥獣戯画』にはない」という言い方は違和感があります。ですが、同時に、あなたの言うように「『マンガ』の根っこは日本もアメリカも同じである」という言説にもうなづけます。というのはここでいうMangaはカタカナの『マンガ』だからです。『マンガ』という表記は「現代の一般的なストーリー・マンガ」という意味合いが大きいのです。
なお、「まんが」については低年齢層を対象としたマンガを指す意味で使われることが多いと考えていますが、ここでは触れないことにします。
英語で説明する際、「漫画」と「マンガ」が「Manga」というワードで十把一絡げになってしまうのは、日本人のオタクとしてはなんともちょっぴり気持ち悪いのです（笑）。ですが、一般的なアメリカの人に「カタカナ」「漢字」のニュアンスの違いから説明するのは大変ですので、あなたのようにバッサリと「Mangaの起源は鳥獣戯画ではない」と断じてもしかたのないことかもしれません。個人的には「マンガ（カタカナ表記）の起源は鳥獣戯画ではない」と言って欲しいところですが。
（個人的には鳥獣戯画はむしろアニメーションの元祖なのでは？とも思ったりします（笑））
そういえば「アニメーション（Or "Animation"）」と言えば、アメリカでは「Anime」は日本に特有のスタイルのアニメーションを指す言葉で使われていると聞きますが、日本では「アニメ」は、「ディズニー・アニメ」「トムとジェリーのアニメ」等、日本のアニメも含む、アニメーション全般を指す言葉として使われています。アメリカの人からすると「『トムとジェリー』がなんでAnimeなの？ 」ということになるんでしょうけど。
興味深いのは、このビデオの日本語字幕です。明らかに意図を持って「漫画」と「マンガ」が使い分けられていて、内容が──完全では何しても──より正確な表現になっているのです。一方、英語音声および英語字幕ではその違いは表現できておらず、英語の説明を聞いているだけではではちょっとミスリードされてしまいまう内容になっていると思います。
I enjoyed your insightful analysis on Manga history. However, I am not 100 percent satisfied with your explanation, because of the absence of discussion regarding the "Manga"'s three different terms used in Japan: "漫画 Manga (in Kanji)," "まんが Manga (in Hiragana)," and "マンガ Manga (in Katakana). These three are perceived differently, although how you take those terms may slightly differ even among Japanese people, depending on what age group you are in, I guess .
From my personal point of view (I'm in mid-50s by the way), "漫画 Manga (in Kanji)" encompasses historical contexts and broader frameworks, hence, when in written in that way, your recognition that the origin of Manga can not be traced back to 12th century Choujugiga picture scroll is not quite right. But, at the same time, I can agree with your assertion that Manga and American (or Western) comics share the same origins, as long as the term "Manga" is expressed in Katakana, since "マンガ Manga (in Katakana)" largely signifies "modern mainstream narrative manga."
Regarding "まんが Manga (in Hiragana)," I believe it's often used to refer to manga aimed at younger readers, but let's not delve into that here.
Thus, It's somewhat discomforting and frustrating for Japanese otaku like me that "Manga (in Kanji)," and "Manga (in Katakana)" are treated the same under the singe term "Manga (in English)." However, thinking that distinguishing the differences between the two would be too complicated for non-native Japanese speakers like American people, the way you say about it might just be a necessary compromise - although "the origin of Manga (in Katakana) is not in the Chojugiga scroll," is the way I prefer to put it. (Personally, I wonder if Chojugiga might be the precursor to animation rather than the manga :))
Speaking of "Anime" or "Animation," I've heard that in America "Anime" refers specifically to the Japanese styled animation, whereas, in Japan, "アニメ(Anime)" includes all kinds of animation, often spoken like "Disney Anime" or "Tom and Jerry Anime," which might puzzle American fans."
Interestingly, I find Japanese subtitles for this video more accurately put, if not perfectly, in terms of the two words, "漫画 Manga (in Kanji)" and "マンガ Manga (in Katakana). They are used differently, and with purpose, whereas in your speakings (and English subtitles), they aren't, which is a little misleading, in my opinion.
Thank you for your comment. The question of how to write "manga" is actually a fairly complicated one! Although "漫画 = political cartoons and/or prewar comics; マンガ = post-Tezuka comics; まんが = child-friendly material and/or universal term" is often used as a rough division, historically it hasn't been that clear. マンガ is already used in the 1920s, for example. Likewise, the 1960s magazine Garo used 漫画 in its title, as did 漫画アクション (Manga Action).
The Chojugiga is only associated with manga because Japanese cartoonists started claiming it as an ancestor because it had been designated a national treasure, so claiming it as the original manga made their own work seem more respectable and associated with officially recognized "high art." The earliest claim to the Chojugiga as manga that I've found was Ippei Okamoto, who does not appear to have produced anything that shows influence by the Chojugiga. It also isn't related to animation. There is no historical evidence for a connection between manga/anime and the Chojugiga. The association started as an effort to boost the prestige of manga and has been embraced by the government (and Japanophiles) to brand manga as specifically Japanese.
I've been following your Instagram for a while now, and there's many, many gems in there. I'm looking forward to more. Good luck!
And thanks for all the original research you're doing.
Thank you!
There must have been comingling of manga and comics in the 40s
Not so much in the early 1940s, but there were licensed American comics in Japanese magazines in the late 1940s and U.S. soldiers brought along plenty of comic books.
Very clear explanation. Thank You. A prior researcher in manga was Ryan Holmberg that has been active for more than a decade. But the nail needs to be hit on it's head. Best regards, Ph.Capart.
Haha yes, Ryan and I know each other. He focuses mainly on the period between 1945 and 1970. Follow him on Instagram at @mangaberg if you don't already. I also recommend his recent translation of Bat Kid, and apparently one of Igaguri-kun is in the works as well, with articles on their historical background!
Super interesting essay. Just ordered the book from 'Amazon
Aw, thank you!
日本人は子供の頃から漫画の原型は鳥獣戯画だって教わるけど、ちゃんと調べると違うってなるよね。
大変わかり易くて面白かったです。内容も素晴らしかったです。
ありがとうございます！そう言っていただけて嬉しいです。
I used your book in my introductory class to Manga History. Great stuff :c)
\(＾ｖ＾)/
Great video
Nice video!
thank you for making this video
Thanks for commenting, I'm glad you liked it!
Wow! You are the Shit! God bless you for your intense research and sharing it on youtube! … getting yo book asap!
Aw, thanks! Much appreciated! I promise you'll like the book if you find this stuff interesting
Very informative video
Why did you stopped uploading buddy ??
The simple answer is that I'm doing research and writing, as well as paid work to sustain said research and writing, and don't have enough time/energy to grow a TH-cam channel to the point where I could monetize it to replace the paid work. I was hoping the video would lead to more sales of my book(s), but it hasn't had a measurable impact, so I haven't had much reason to make more videos. Well-researched, well-made videos take a lot of time (that's why most good-looking videos are sloppily researched and why there's so much bs on TH-cam; see those videos on manga history that look nice but are just based on Wikipedia summaries). I'll probably make another one to promote the second book, though.
Anyone who wants to support my work should buy my books (preferably ebook, because the royalties are higher, but I'm grateful for any copy sold; links at eikeexner.com/books). I guess I could also make a Patreon, but that usually requires a larger existing subscriber base.
U should make more videos
Maybe once it hits 10k or if more people start buying my book haha
What they play in Japan and call "baseball" has nothing to do with American baseball. It originated in certain sword fighting practices and training procedures dating back to 14th Century Japan where young soldiers would train to improve their sword fighting techniques by trying to slice oranges and grapefruits tossed at them by instructors. The resemblance to American baseball is purely a coincidence.
It's funny you say that because I too like to use baseball as an example of how silly the "manga evolved out of ancient practices" and "these are fundamentally different traditions" claims are.
Stay tuned for my video "Why Based Yakyu Is Outselling Woke American Baseball"
@@eikeexner3029 As a lifelong baseball fan I no longer follow the sport, but not because of wokeness. I drifted away before that. Analytics ruined baseball. Changes it from being a spontaneous game to an exercise in statistics and probabilities and rendered it mindlessly dull. I'll have to check out your video to see your take.
@@RRaquello Sorry, that was supposed to be a joke making fun of a popular video with the idiotic title "why manga beats woke american comics" or something like that :-)
@@eikeexner3029 You know I saw a video in my recommendations on with as title something like "Why Japanese Baseball Beats Woke MLB" so I thought maybe that was the video you were talking about making. That's how it works in modern USA--anything that is originally proposed as a joke eventually becomes real.
wow amazing video!
Thank you thank you
Please make more videos!
Will definitely consider it! It just takes a long time to plan, film, and edit, and I need to work for a living and also do more research (working on a second book)...
@@eikeexner3029 thank for your important work, can't wait to read the second book! Will Pre-order if that's available
This was great!!! #Respect🤘
Your passion is palpable! Thanks for sharing your research with us. It’s a great example of the fluid nature of culture over time as well as the potential different cultural traditions have to converge and diverge in cycles! #manga #mangalove #comics #history
📜❌
🗞🎨 ✅
🧑🎨👨🏾🎤🥷🧚♂️🤴🦹♂️🤰🏾🤱🏾
Thanks, Darryl!
I did look it up before finding this video and got to ansimilar conclusion.
That's great! What sources did you find that helped you come to that conclusion? It's frustrating how much BS is on the internet, so I'm glad there's some accurate stuff as well.
I remember reading year ago (20+) that Tezuka went with the big eyes looks for his characters because he was looking up to Disney's characters. While I, and neither the person writing that article, knew about all the material you were able to find, it was clear that in some way comics were crossing the Pacific and reaching Japanese kids.
One thing that is not clear to me is if the link between modern manga and middle-aged drawings was a Japanese or an Occidental idea.
@@eikeexner3029 I focused in academic articles about the taisho era, and those articles that related to mass art like graphic design and advertisement. I was interestef in the social changes that influenced the adoption of some western style design.
@@eikeexner3029 was interested in shojo no tomo and bijin posters.
@@eikeexner3029 there are many kids online that still need to go deeper before getting to a conclusion and leave emotions behind. When they mature will see things clearer, mean while i just dont mind too much on comments discussions.
Very enlightening video! Hope to see more! I already have your book but if I didn’t and I saw this I would immediately go out and buy it.
Haha thank you! That's very nice to hear
Great video - In the early Tezuka spread 'Dagwood' from 'Blondie' is talking to 'Jiggs'. To the left of Dagwood is 'Betty Boop' - I suspect they all might be famous characters... You might like to look at the Scottish comic 'The Glasgow Looking Glass' from 1825, the worlds first comic, and thought to be the earliest known use of speech balloons.
Yeah, they're all characters from other strips, both Japanese and foreign. I highlighted the ones I figured everyone would recognize at first glance.
I'm familiar with The Glasgow Looking Glass and know which cartoon you're referring to. It does look astonishingly modern, but if you look at it closely, you'll find that the four panels with speech balloons are four separate scenes! Although they look very much like contemporary speech balloons, if they were intended as sound, why didn't anyone at the time think of creating a scene using such balloons over multiple panels?
@@eikeexner3029 Two of the panels on the front of The Glasgow Looking Glass #1 are conversations, suggesting a passage of time within the panel, but yes they are still single panels. It's an interesting move forward from single panel political cartoons that also used speech bubbles as conversation, such as 'The Triumph of Caesar' (1757) by George Townsend. Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Do you have a link to those? All of the examples from the Looking Glass that I've seen look like this one: depart.gr.176-31-41-131.ns3.hs-servers.gr/datafiles/image-20160314-11299-1t3pkn5(1).jpg
As you can see, the balloons aren't part of a "real-life" conversation between 'real' people. This is true for basically all early 'speech' balloons before the 1890s. Comics scholar Thierry Smolderen has written about this in his book The Origins of Comics and an article called Of Labels, Loops, and Bubbles. I only realized the split between word/speech balloons before and after the advent of sound recording technology after reading his work. There are people vehemently opposed to this theory (mostly those invested in the idea that "comics" have existed throughout human history), but no one has been able to come up with an alternative theory for why we don't see balloon-based conversations in non-metaphorical cartoons over multiple panels before the 1890s.
@@eikeexner3029 I have replied to you with links, but youtube remove them, as they think I am spamming you. I'll try reaching you on instagram
You Should make more videos about Japanese Literature
Once I hit 10k views ;-)
Excellent work! I learned a ton.
great great work thx
I thought this was recent! Thank you for teaching me 🙏
thank you!
I'm here because of Neil Gaiman. Hope more people watch this informative, well researched history of early Manga origins. Nice work and thanks for sharing.
His tweet is responsible for almost half of the current view count! :-)
So, was the market for Japanese-made comics already very large before 1950? do other japanese media also suffer from these lies? How the kamishibai market for example?
That's a complicated question because most comics pre-1950s were used to sell newspapers and magazines featuring other content as well, so it's hard to know how many people bought publications specifically for comics... There were cartoon magazines, but no long narrative comics until the 1930s, when Norakuro anthologies (which originally were adaptations of the Shonen Club comic strip, but then diverged significantly) sparked a boom in stand-alone comic books (actual books, not the thin American "comic book" type) by Nakamura Shoten and Kodansha (and some others). Even the first modern kids manga magazines in the late 1940s and early 1950s still featured non-comics stuff (like serialized novels) and were originally primarily *kids* magazines rather than *comics* magazines. But it does look like the Japanese comics "market" (based on how many publications featuring at least some comics were in circulation) until the mid-1950s was second in the world only to the Unites States (where comics crater around 1954 due to the anti-comics backlash and the Comics Code).
I don't quite understand what you mean by "also suffer from these lies." There's been some effort to tie anime to medieval picture scrolls, but in that case the connection to modern technology is so obvious that it's been a lot harder to pull that off. Since most people assume that comics could have existed at any point in history, it's much easier to imply that there's a lineage with centuries-old art. Same with video games. People would just laugh at someone saying Final Fantasy evolved out of Shogi or Sugoroku.
Kamishibai has frequently been tied to manga, but I haven't found much direct connection between the two. There actually were two distinct forms of kamishibai: one in which cutouts of drawn characters on sticks were used to literally perform a play (kind of like Punch and Judy stuff), and one in which a narrator simply cycled through a series of pictures while telling a story (There's a Japanese book called OH! Manga that has drawings of both types). The latter is what most people think of when they talk about kamishibai. Several artists who drew comics also drew kamishibai (the latter type at least), and of course there's the famous case of Golden Bat, a character that jumped from kamishibai to comics. But I haven't seen any evidence of direct influence. Rather, it seems like kamishibai, due to being drawn, was an art form adjacent to cartooning and comics, just like drawing illustrations or advertisements, which some mangaka did as well (to make money). The people drawing the kamishibai were not the same ones who did the actual performing by the way (this is often not clarified in texts about kamishibai).
@@eikeexner3029 Thanks for the answer. With lies, I meant the idea of "Japanese purity" in production. I had no idea that the Japanese market was so much before the 60's. And do you know more or less what the origin of emonogatari is? Can it be considered comic?
@@hardweeb1959 Regarding the "purity" of Japanese origins, there's a fascinating book about the concept of "bushido," by the way, which claims that it was mostly a translation of the English "chivalry." It's called "Inventing the Way of the Samurai: Nationalism, Internationalism, and Bushido in Modern Japan," by Oleg Benesch.
Emonogatari in the sense of picture stories most likely go back to translations of Wilhelm Busch's picture stories (since Rodolphe Töpffer wasn't translated into Japanese at the time), as well as material published in European and American humor magazines and then copied or adapted in Japan. There were plenty of cartoons and picture stories from magazines like Judge, Puck, Punch, Fliegende Blätter etc. in Meiji-period Japan.
Unfortunately there's no universally accepted definition of "comic," so whether picture stories can be considered comics depends on your own definition :-) I would say no, because what came to be called "comics" historically was fundamentally different from picture stories (since comics basically work like movies and evolved out of pantomime cartoons), but obviously people like Scott McCloud and David Kunzle have their own, quite different definitions of what constitutes "comics"... I had a somewhat frustrating discussion about this point in a presentation for the NY Picture Story and Comics Symposium earlier this year, which is also on TH-cam, if you're curious about this. I don't know if the Q&A was included in the video, but if it is you can see me roll my eyes at one point. Some people feel *very* strongly about the history of comics.
@@eikeexner3029 I will definitely check out this book and this video, I'm new to this manga business. I'm someone who tends to read more about the thing than the thing itself, I have a lot more information than experiences. That's when I found your channel, a wonderful find. I saw your article on the 10 manga myths, fascinating. I will buy your book asap, you have a fan now.
@@hardweeb1959 Thank you very much, that's very kind of you! I'm always happy to hear that all this work hasn't been in vain :-)
Fascinating. It always bothered me how western fans of Japanese comics and cartoons separate them off. There are differences in the stylistic traditions, but the same goes for European vs American comics. Similarly, people tend to refer to their *form* as if it was a genre unto itself. Any story you can imagine is told in comics or animated films, as is the case in Europe and North America, so when you say „I love Manga“ referring to Japanese comics, it doesn’t actually mean anything.
Completely agree. It's similar to when people use "comics" as a synonym for "superheroes." Mainstream American comics also used to be much more diverse before 1954 (though we're seeing a resurgence today; it's just that only superhero comics became an *industry* comparable to the manga publishing industry in Japan).
@@eikeexner3029 Indeed. I'm no comics expert, but have delved into German comics and am vaguely familiar with a couple of key French ones. And when you start looking into European comics, you can see there is a very rich and creative tradition. Some books are a true amalgamation of the literary and visual arts, and could stand toe to toe with some of the great literary works. And as fun as American superheroes are, their content and tone couldn't be more different from many European books.
no mention of 黄表紙?
I had to draw the line somewhere (regarding how many things unrelated to modern manga I should include). :-)
For the record, there is no evidence that 黄表紙 (kibyoshi - a type of 18th/19th century Japanese picture story) exerted influence on the development of comics in Japan. I believe there's a contemporary mangaka who has made some comics that incorporate kibyoshi elements, but that doesn't mean kibyoshi were relevant to the creation/adoption of comics in Japan as a storytelling medium.
@@eikeexner3029 Your claim that there is "no evidence" has no evidence.
You deliberately ignored the existence of Japan's wealth of ``illustrated novels.''
This is because it has a much more ``comic book'' appearance than the childish ``series of pictures with text'' found in American newspapers.
Its existence is inconvenient for those of you who want to draw conclusions in a specific direction.
It's not academic.
いや、明らかに古くからの繋がりはあるんですよ。
例えば有名な北斎の波の絵がありますよね。
波は本来形のないものです。形のないものをマンガのように線によって非常に印象的に描いています。
それと同じように、現代のマンガでも煙や炎や電流といった形のないものが線によって印象的に描かれていることは多いです。
他にも、絵の登場人物がまるでマンガのキャラクターのようにカッコいい体勢をとっているのも浮世絵の時代から見られます。
そういう風に、現代の日本のマンガを特徴づけているものが結構昔から見られるよね、ということなんです。
コマ割りだとかふきだしだとか現代マンガの基本的な構造部分はアメリカから取り入れたというのはその通りでしょうけど。
この動画は、物語マンガという媒体の構造がいかなる歴史過程を経て出来て日本に定着したかについてなので「キャラクターのカッコいい体勢は浮世絵にもあったよ」と言われても答えようがないですね。
その「基本的な構造部分」に関して納得頂けて嬉しいです。念のために言っておきますが、「アメリカから取り入れた」というのは別にアメリカ人の漫画家のほうがすごかったとかからではなく、当時映画・レコードなど視聴覚的メディアが一番発展している地域であったため、現代の物語マンガ（の構造）もそこにできたのです。
"Balloons" that represent what's inside a character's head are a Japanese invention.
It appears in a 1775 ukiyo-e print.
Also, the sequence of pictures and explanations is common in books of that era.
Japan was certainly ahead of the United States in these areas.
Rather, you should look into Europe.
Americans often joke that ``movies, anime, and automobiles have their roots in America.''
American manga may also have roots somewhere in Europe.
確かに「のらくろ」って黒猫フェリックスそのままだな…
thank you
please please please if u have the passion do more of these comics books hell tv shows a fucking sheet of paper it could be a good umm monetary series
really great video, my only slight negative is that you talk a little slow aha
lol thank you and thanks for letting me know. I won't be offended if you play it at double speed
@@eikeexner3029 I’m ashamed to admit I did 😅
@@Jozhster haha no shame in that! we've all done that, no offense taken
@@eikeexner3029 thanks for the reply, I look forward to whatever you upload next :)
thank u!!
thanks
You have a Wikipedia page , How cool is that !
Unfortunately I don't think that's true 😄
This is I saw it with my eyes
Search your name and you will find it
Ohh, are you referring to the Google knowledge panel? Those are automatically generated from book author data. For a while they were using someone else's picture with it lol
wao, seriusly... Thank you
Most welcome 😊
best comic manga😷.
Theres a youtuber named "mattt" that makes extremely high quality videos on american comics. I would pay a handsome note to hear u all talk both
I'm not sure if that was the intention but personally I feel that the argument you're proposing is fairly reductive if not sensationalist to the history of the medium. There is no doubt that early translations of western comics had a huge role in the history and prehistory of modern manga - and I don't know a single person that would deny that - but completely ignoring the Japanese side of the argument really feels like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Early in the video when you mentioned there is no real connection between traditional art and the birth of modern manga for example wouldn't 1900s artists like Kiyoshi Kobayakawa (which you can follow up in quick succession with someone like Junichi Nakahara of course which is even more heavily connected to 50s to modern shoujo aesthetics) be a counter argument to that?
While yes you can say that both nihonga artists and not had western inspirations among others, given the inherent nature of living in the Meiji/Taisho era (and also the fact that obviously every artist living on the face of the planet will have numerous inspirations) I can't imagine that would mean that is absolutely no connection when it comes to traditional japanese art and manga origins/evolution.
I know from experience with similar comments that it's unlikely there's anything I could say to change your mind, but here we go anyway:
Let's start with this: "no doubt that early translations of western comics had a huge role in the history and prehistory of modern manga - and I don't know a single person that would deny that"
I guess it might be true that no one with a reputation to lose would outright *deny* the role of "western" comics in the history of Japanese ones (I would disagree with the framing that there's some kind of fundamental difference here to begin with), if directly challenged in public. Unfortunately that's not really how things work. People can and do simply portray manga as something fundamentally different from comics and ignore whatever doesn't fit that view. You can watch plenty of videos and read entire books on manga without ever even learning about Bringing Up Father. How many people would know the answer if you asked them what the longest running pre-1945 manga was? Also, I'm not exactly pulling this stuff from google searches, so it's funny to me to suggest that I'm simply rehashing stuff that 'everyone already knows.'
Anyways, there is a systemic minimization of this history by Japanophiles and people with vested interests in portraying manga as something essentially Japanese (including the Japanese government, which actively promotes this narrative), and this video is meant to counteract this minimization. "Throwing the baby out with the bathwater" implies that harm is being done. Might I ask what is being harmed? Japanese national pride?
I find the phrase "the Japanese side of the argument" rather interesting in this context. What exactly is "the Japanese side"? Bunshiro Suzuki was Japanese when he decided that Bringing Up Father would probably be a hit in Japan. Ryuichi Yokoyama was Japanese when he lettered Bringing Up Father in Japanese. Yutaka Aso was Japanese when he created the first Japanese-drawn long-lived modern comic strip. The hundreds of thousands of readers like Osamu Tezuka who read these translated comics were Japanese... Almost all of this history is Japanese people doing things in Japan, but for some reason it's not "the Japanese side of the argument."
(There's actually a fascinating current in Japanese manga historiography where Bringing Up Father is only mentioned as an influence on Nonki na tosan, but not as popular in its own right, as if something created by a foreigner could not truly have been a huge part of Japanese history or culture, or been popular with Japanese people, but that's another story.)
Lastly, regarding domestic influence by pre-1923 Japanese artists on later Japanese comics: this is a fundamental misunderstanding of my point, which is about comics as a *medium* in the sense of stories mainly told via sequential panels across which characters have conversations via speech balloons. The comment is talking about *style* (and after the war at that). My whole point is that the basic structure of the medium evolved in one place in response to specific material conditions and then spread around the world during the 1920s and 1930s, and didn't mysteriously emerge out of a centuries-old domestic tradition. This is evident if you look at France, China, and Thailand too, by the way, and almost certainly true for every other country connected to global currents during that time as well.
Just as Disney and Fleischer served as inspirations for Manga, it is equally fair to acknowledge that the Archie comics' style of drawing, characterized by big eyes on its characters, also played a significant role. Manga artists appreciated the way the eyes were drawn large, as it bestowed the Archie characters with what can be described as 'Soulful Eyes,' resembling windows to the soul.
Among the three artists who contributed to the drawing of Archie characters-Bob Montana, Harry Lucy, and Dan DeCarlo-DeCarlo was the most favored. This preference stemmed from his superior cartoon style and his skillful ability at drawing pretty, attractive girls with appeal such as Betty and Veronica.
"Manga artists" - Who, concretely, and what are some concrete sources? I have not come across evidence for a noticeable impact of Archie comics in Japan, so I'm highly skeptical of this claim.
漫画の祖はなんとなく、浮世絵や絵巻物だと思っていたが、それは勘違いだった。真実を教えてくれてありがとう😊
Why do you & so many call it maynga hope that’s covered in the video
Lol you're not the first person to ask me about this. I was just trying not to be pretentious, but you're right, it doesn't make sense to call it man-gah, since muhng-gah is much closer to the Japanese pronunciation.
手塚治虫を現代漫画の創始者とするのは、吹き出しのあるコミックだからではなく、ストーリーテーリングだよ😅
それまでは田河水泡や長谷川町子のような四コマ漫画みたいなものが主流だったのを、映画的な表現を取り入れるによって動きや迫力を出したのが大きい。（有名なのが新宝島の自動車のシーン）さらに、多様なジャンルを描いたことで、コメディだけではなく広い可能性を示したところよ。
以上の全ては手塚以前から日本のマンガにあった。大城のぼる等の戦前のマンガ本を読んだらすぐ分かる（少なくとも『汽車旅行』と『火星探検』は復刻版として入手できるはず）。手塚も大城のファンだったし、影響力は大きかったけど、「創始者」だったとは言えない。
Bro is so wrong
Yeah, the anime guy should really stick to anime, I assume he knows at least something about *that*
@eikeexner3029 no I didn't mean wrong sorry I'm bad at wording like I meant manga was made before modern day comics and was made over thousands of years of evolution I apologize for the bad wording btw