I worked twenty years as an A&P- ten in corporate helicopters and ten in light GA aircraft. I now make more money in another maintenance related field, in a nice shop- heated in the winter and cooled in the summer, and I don't worry about my mistakes killing anyone. I miss working on airplanes but I don't miss the feeling of being a servant taking care of rich boy toys. Working on machines I would never have any hope of affording myself took a lot of the love out of it. That and a lot of those machines are getting really old and there is a lot of shady things going on out there to keep them "legal".
@@Robert-uo6qi Agree, ageing aircraft is a massive problem that is not getting addressed. Aircraft we get for inspection are in horrible shape and take weeks or months to correct all the discrepancies.
I am a non practicing A&P. I never worked in GA because of the awful pay. My avg offer in Connecticut was 8.75hr in the early 2000s. I was lucky to fall into LSA and made twice the amount. The LSA field was so much fun, I miss it a lot. I am amazed by the low shop rates. I charged lift truck customers 240hr mobile shop rate.
I'm a couple of breaths away from getting my certificates, and I've described every GA shop that's come to chat as being "very competitive with fast food wages" Bonus points if they said "we treat our employees like family". I've done a lot of free work for family over the years.
I had a friend who worked in a Cessna aircraft repair shop. He made $6,000 per year. Just being able to touch, let alone accomplish work on a Million dollar airplane is a privilege. So, the mechanic was privileged to be working on expensive aircraft and getting paid for it. 🤠
Mike's idea of a maintenance club is very solid. I was a member of a flying club that had it's own A&P/IA. He was on salary to specifically maintain the club's dozen aircraft. The salary was part of the monthly dues, just like hangar, parts reserves, etc. He took care of those planes like they were his babies, because in reality they were. He had a comparable salary, and much much less stress. A win-win for everyone. The hopes that the government will improve archaic rules is like hoping to win the lotto.
I’m an IA who’s been an A&P doing GA work for 15+ years. Over the last year I’ve told all my customers it’s my last. I’m working through my backlog of currently scheduled annuals and looking forward to being done with GA maintenance by the end of next month. The pay is simply not worth my time anymore.
I have been treated like I am lucky to be allowed to work on aircraft, you know, because it is such an honour..abused and underpaid for far too long. I now earn roughly 4 times what I used to as a technician. There is no shortage of people with a passion for GA work, but even passionate aviation loving technical minded people need to pay their mortgage and buy food. I now own my own aeroplane (something that was impossible as a technician) and work on it myself, since it is very hard to find a workshop with available slots. Aircraft maintainers are top people with a lot of talent and can find work in any other job out there if they want to. There is no shortage - there is a shortage of proper pay, and the respectful treatment that the job deserves.
Unfortunately, you are too correct ! I worked under my A&P for 10 years before I gave up and took a different career path. As much as love working on a/c, I couldn't see a path to making the income I desired. Now that I'm getting a little older I've been thinking about it more, but It just doesn't pay what I feel my times worth. I would love to go back into aviation, and would if they'd get off that wallet, and offer a reasonable wage that compares with the skill and commitment required to do the job. And that's not even bringing up the liability, that alone should easily warrant more than any automotive tech. position pays !
As an a&p. Shops need to pay more to retain mechanics. And not treat them like they are replaceable. Mechanic have been treated like we are just dumb monkeys. Now they are whining about not finding mechanics. Hahahah
Same with pilots. I worked at an aircraft mfg and they have been treating the production test pilots and demo pilots like cattle. Guess what - the airlines are snapping them up like crazy for way better money. Management is saying “you have to do work the weekend and be in the office Monday to Friday even if you aren’t flying - stupid stuff like that which in the past they could get away with. Now the pilots are saying no I don’t - I quit! More power to ‘em!
Want mechanics? Pay them. Pure and simple. As discussed, when we can make more in the automotive industry, with almost none of the responsibility that comes with maintaining aircraft, who in their right mind would choose aviation? You can say it's for the love, but when we're priced out of the aeroplane market, there's no incentive. And thats just to keep the seasoned guys, trying to attract young folks is an even harder issue, money is only the tip of the iceberg.
@@prodigalpilot that's certainly a route many of us aim towards, but it comes at huge cost. Facility, overheads, equipment, insurance etc and all the usual struggles new business go through. If you can afford to weather the first few years, you'll probably make it in the long run, but you have to be able to afford to survive the first few years. it takes a long time to build up the initial capital and resources when you're working as an aircraft mechanic.
@@professordexter3563 thanks, I do appreciate the capital investment. I would counter that a less expensive way would be a service truck and do “house calls”. Such mechanic is difficult to find, but I know many other owners who would be thrilled to have someone come do maintenance, rather than dealing with delivering aircraft to a Mx facility. Blue skies
I recently looked into A&P schools and job market. It was rapidly revealed that it was my worst career option relative to the required skills and liabilities. I could not make any financial sense of it.
@@SoloRenegade I can't say I agree with that. A&P's need to be regulated carefully. The cost of the red tape simply needs to be passed to the aircraft owners like everything else. This is not a place for a free-for-all.
@@jonasbaine3538 at an airline we can file TSAP reports if we committed an honest mistake, its our version of the ASAP report. As long as you make a good to honest effort in following the AMM/Engineering orders and you do your due diligence an TSAP will help you if you get in a bind.
An old DOM told me a long time ago that an airplane is safer the day it goes in for an annual than the day it comes out of annual. In thirty years I have never been able to prove him wrong. On another note, I would never recommend a career in GA maintenance. High liability and low return on investment. There are so many better ways to support yourself now. Now you bring up owner maintenance... In my experience, people that can afford airplanes have no business turning wrenches on airplanes.
I've been a aircraft mechanic for 15 years. Shops don't want to pay their mechanics, benefits are nonexistent and treat you like you are replaceable. No wonder this is where we are. Currently working to my degree so I can stop wrenching. As for Mikes comments on reducing preventative maintenance, when we start to see law suits lost for plaintiffs claiming technician/shop negligence and insurance premiums go down we can start talking about a reduction. Until then, not going to happen.
Owners should do as much of their own maintenance as possible. Keeping the ship clean and well lubricated is 90% of the job. I take this further, I shower every day and then have a few beers; that’s ‘clean and lubricated’ by any definition 😂
aviation maintenance is far too over regulated. If I want to get my car fixed, i can do it my self or take it to any shop and get it fixed. If I want to fix my airplane, i feel like I'm facing FBI interrogation or going to go to prison if I dare try to fix my plane properly. or I'll be extorted criminally high prices for things that should cost less than $10. FAA has even told mechanics to stop fixing planes. And slammed the door in the face of people like myself regarding getting my A&P on teh side.
@@SoloRenegade its because even with all the regulations you have a lot of owners who still try to skirt the fine line between prudent minimal maintenance and lack of maintenance that is in the negligence level. For the airlines things like Alaska 261 happened because management didn't want the cost of taking the airplane out of service to lube the jackscrew per the AMM's schedule. They kept deferring it until the thing failed and people lost their lives in a fairly terrifying manner. Most of the time if a car has a major problem, you can simply pull over and wait for a tow, you can't do that in an airplane. There are some car owners who are so bad that the shop themselves refuse to work on it out of liability concerns especially if the customer is known for refusing work like replacing brake pads that are completely worn off or tires that are mostly metal mesh because the treads wore off long ago. These are mainly issues in states without safety inspections.
@@JohnDoe-ks6is "For the airlines things like Alaska 261 happened because management didn't want the cost of taking the airplane out of service to lube the jackscrew per the AMM's schedule. " we'll, for starters, we're not talking about commercial maintenance here. there you go making assumptions again. "you can simply pull over and wait for a tow, you can't do that in an airplane." wrong, it's called a precautionary landing, and many aircraft have a checklist procedure for it in their POH. also, bad example. If I want to put a new GPS in my car, I can. If I want to work on the engine, I can. If I want to do interior repair, I can. If I want to repair the god awful dash panel in my airplane that has been hacked and slashed on for decades with a new one, I can't. Buying a new panel costs $1200, and still needs to be installed, when I can make one myself for about $40 (I'm a mechanical and aerospace engineer as well as CFII, who designs airplanes and sheet metal structures). If I want to replace my cracked spinner plate with a new one that is better designed and brand new for $30, I can't. But I can buy one that is 70yrs old, fatigued, bent, corroded for $300 and legally install that, until it too cracks in flight a few hours later. If the chinsy paper thin door on the airplane malfunctions, I can't fix it. and too expensive to justify fixing it. Even thought a child could fix it. I can legally design and build airplanes, but can't work on them. I can design parts and aircraft, write teh manuals, draw up the procedures mechanics are required to follow, and write the books mechanics might study from to get certified but I can't work on those same airplanes. How stupid does that sound to you? the guy who literally can design them, can't work on them? who knows an airplane and its parts better than a person who designs the parts? In no other industry is a mechanic placed in higher status than the engineers.
Aviation in general has not kept pace with the other technical trades; for years, it had the luxury of an endless supply of incoming mechanics lined up at the door for a chance to be involved in an industry they loved. Now that that supply has dried up, aviation must compete head-to-head with the other technical trades for skilled labor and is completely unprepared to recruit or retain skilled mechanics. GA repair stations, having kept shop rates artificially low for so long in an attempt to retain the dwindling number of "cheapskate" private owner/operator customers operating neglected "legacy" airplanes have sabatoged their own ability to compete financially with the other aviation companies competing for that skilled labor. It's not that there are no NEW mechanics entering the work force, they just aren't entering QA because they can't make a mortgage payment with their love of aviation. Running GA airplanes "on condition" or as "owner-maintained experimentals" to reduce maintenance costs will keep the private owner/operator flying a few years longer, but it won't provide the GA shop the ability to generate the revenue to attract and retain mechanics. This won't end well, but it will end. The financially stronger shops will survive, the weak will not. My advice to GA Shop Managers: raise your rates now, eliminate your "charity" customers, and figure out how to profitably perform the maintenance you can with the mechanics you already have for the customers that can "afford" to pay you for your services. And some of them can "afford" your professional services, just look at the cars in your parking lot. (I'm a 25 year civilian helicopter AME in Canada; when I entered the work force in 1997, I never understood how GA could attract/retain mechanics when their shop rates were so low and they paid mechanics so little. It didn't seem sustainable back then, and it still doesn't now.)
Airlines will be sucking up new mechanics like a vacuum. It's hard to compete with their pay and benefits, that and as an airline mechanic you get to fix things without dealing with picky owners
I left the automotive industry after 30 years. I’m an ASE L1. I worked for an IA for 5 years and got my A&P and Private pilots license. I absolutely love Aviation! Unfortunately, I had to return to automotive. I didn’t want to, but I simply couldn’t afford to stay. The Aviation community I was around, I consider family. Great people! I try to help friends with aircraft with the free time I have. Hopefully shop rates and benefits can change for the better soon. Thank you for these great webinars! I listen to all of them.
I'm an A&P with 30 + years in aviation that recently left aviation. My experience started in GA, extended to Northrop Grumman Flight Test (Bac 1-11's, Saber 40's, B-737, CRJ 900's), worked for Quest Aircraft in their Customer Service dept (Kodiak 100's), and recently worked for a classified operator with a fleet of C-208B's and B350's. At the heigth of of career pay I was a salaried A&P with Northrop Grumman making over $100K including OT. I left aviation because I simply needed to do something different. I agree with everything Mike said, he speaks with common sense wisdom. The FAA needs leadership wisdom like Mike has, unfortunatly, like all government bureaucracies they value politics over wisdom.
As a 25+ year aircraft mechanic I have never heard of the idea of an "over maintained" aircraft. It is an interesting concept. But how do you determine where the sweet spot in that scale is, how do you know if you have slipped to "under maintained", without risking killing people? From the point of view of an experienced aircraft mechanic I am not at all concerned with litigation, I am worried about making smoking holes in the ground with dead people in them. I can deal with lawyers, but I can't live with myself if I know that I caused someone's death, especially if it was caused by something that was done to save an owner a few hundred dollars. We deal in a lot of absolutes that other mechanics don't, bad mistakes have life altering consequences, which also could be contributing to the difficulty in recruiting. Very interesting post, thanks for your time and effort.
Funny thing is that I pay my shop $130/hr. I think he pays his guys well because a few of them have built their own planes. I paid a previous shop $95/hr in a less ritzy area, and he was only paying his guys $20/hr. They darn near all walked out in the middle of my project, but the shop owner compromised with $35/hr. Still way underpaid imo, even in a crappy area. I would think if the mechanics all got together and put their foot down the shop owners would have to concede and pay them decent money.
It’s because you can get paid better elsewhere, and not get treated like you’re simply an expense, whether it be from the aircraft owners, shop owners or airline management, I got lucky with the shop I work for.
There are a bunch of retired guys with mechanical experience looking for retirement side hustles. Can’t shop owners hire them as techs and delegate work with A&P oversight?
Hi all - I’m finishing up my A&P coursework while working the lesser fulfilling, higher paying day job in SoCal. The program needs a major overhaul to attract more enrollment! My goal is to do exactly that! GA is my passion and I love the school… looking for a network…
For seven months, I worked at a general aviation shop right next to the aircraft maintenance school that I’m attending to gain experience as an apprentice, and I personally experienced the shortage in mechanics. When I started at this shop, there were a total of 4 A&Ps in the maintenance shop, two IA’s, and three guys in the avionics shop one hangar over from the main hangar. Four months in, three guys left because there were companies offering higher wages, and were closer to all three of their homes. Leaving me, 1 A&P, and two IA’s. Whenever I hear someone mention the mechanic shortage, I always say it’s not the airlines who are struggling, it the general aviation sector that’s been struggling. Which is upsetting, because I LOVE general aviation. And that’s one reason why I’ve been working on getting my A&P license, so I can work on my own airplane one day whenever I own one. And potentially get my IA to work on my annuals as well.
I have an AI who works on many aircraft at our airport. He has a shop, but he comes to us which he loves because when an aircraft is down waiting for parts it's still in our hangar, taking up our space. He charges a healthy hourly rate, but he keeps it all and even charges for drive time. We keep him busy, as he's way more convenient than taking an aircraft somewhere and having to get home. It's a win/win for everybody. He has lost his helper, and can't find anyone to replace him, but that just means we have to help when we can.
I am an instructor and a former 135 FO flying Lears. This is not just a problem in aviation. This is a problem for every single trade. This is a problem for airlines. This is a problem for anyone who needs to hire technically oriented people. The problem comes from the fact that there are many jobs today that pay much better than the jobs that we are discussing….jobs that have less liability….that have shorter hours….that have better working conditions….that don’t have you sitting reserve in a cheap room….that don’t have you wondering if you’re going to lose your job because you might lose your medical. When I started flying back in the 1990s, there was very little information available about wages, and about other jobs that could be performed for higher wages. Today a person can find out all kinds of information with just a few clicks of that mouse, and that is the reason that everyone is having trouble finding people to go into the fields that don’t pay as much….and that isn’t going to change until there isn’t a difference of wages, and better working conditions and protection from liability. If those things don’t happen, this is only going to get worse and I know it seems like it can’t get worse but trust me………it can.
The other issue for mechanics is finding a shop to actually operate in. Many hangar businesses do not allow such maintanance due to either insurance or there is already a mechanic on the field that doesn't want competition.
Interesting topic. My two cents. If you pay them, they will come. I am a local trucker that holds a PPL and makes 28/hour. There is a new 147 opening close to my home that I'm interested in attending. After looking at what a local GA mechanic makes around here, I have to think alot harder about attending than I would if pay were $35 and up. I live in a relatively nexpensive part of the country and I'm just getting by on my current pay. Asking someone to go to school for years to enter a job that is physically demanding and has a lot of liability is alot to ask of someone who will barely get by for at least several years after graduating. 80k/year is nowhere near what it was 4 years ago.
So I wanted to be an AMP back in the early 90’s but went to Automotive because it paid better. Now 30 years later I’m still a automotive technician for a high line dealership. Our shop rate is $210 per hour and I make about 40-42 per book hour-we are not flat rate. I take home on average about $100-120k a year, and with inflation as high as it is it’s still not enough I feel. I still think we should still make more because we buy our own tools and toolboxes, exposed to chemicals and technically we are plumbers, electricians, diagnostics techs, computer programmers, standing all day, lifting, bending, not to mention learning a new car every few years. But how can a small GA shop afford to pay its top guys 100k plus to draw in new mechanics and keep those they have now! It’s sad situation for the whole GA world.
Got me license back in 86/87. Never turned a single wrench for pay. Got all my pilot licenses. Flight instructed for years…same thing back then. My students working at McDonald’s made more than me. I didn’t leave aviation- aviation left me… I’m out and enjoy my life. And make money lol. I do get sad every once in a while but…life is easy now that I’m not responsible for someone getting hurt.
I'm an A&P for a lot of years. Now retired. Won't work on any body's airplane, because of being sued. My plane is experimental. Stop the lawyers from trying to ruin others lives, and I'll start helping other owners.
I'm an engineer at a large aerospace company. I started out as a helicopter mechanic many moons ago. I've had my A&P for more than 20 years. I figured it would be nice to get back into the toolbox. I've had a hard time finding a part-time gig because I don't have 2 years of general aviation experience. Go figure...
In 2000 I received my A&P. I was a carpenter and wanted to work on aircraft after retiring. I worked on a friends plane for a year or 2 and then nothing for 2 years. I went back to the college where I got my certificates and asked the instructor ( also the FAA examiner and asked if I could come back to school for a while to get current. He allowed me to work with him and other students to a point he said I could consider myself current. 2 years went by and the school would not let me come back to do it again as they did not have space available as they had STUDENT to take the spots available. I contacted the FAA and they said that I needed to work at a shop for 6 months before I could be current. I did not want to work for 6 months at a shop but I contacted one and he said he would meet with me. I waited at his shop for 1 hour and he never came. I just wanted to help people and was not looking for pay. I contacted the people at the police station as asked if I could volunteer my time to work with their mechanic and they never returned my request. I contacted the FAA again and was told that the main FAA person in Washington had a bill on his desk that would be approved anytime to solve my issue and to just wait. I contacted the person by email several times and was told the same thing over and over. Several months later I emailed him again and he said to stop bothering him and just go get a job! I have heard that you are in touch with the FAA all the time. Several people that were in the classes I was in only work on their own aircraft when needed. The local FAA office says that to be current you need to work 6 months every 2 years full time. That's 1000 hours. If you work on your aircraft steady for 16 hours every weekend for 2 years, 52 week times 2 years times 16 hours equal, 1600 hours Plus. You know as well as I do that they do not work this many weekend that many hours to remain current but nobody says anything. I went to work on an EAA build for 1 year but the FAA says that this did not make me current. This was working 8 to 24 hours a week. Could you put something together with the FAA to make some kind of deal on how A&P's can remain and get current other then getting hired full time at a FBO. I am retired and only want to help people at the airport and friends with their planes and builds such as at the EAA or such. I even ask the FAA if I built a gyrocopter or a kit airplane, could I count those hours as hours toward the 6 months and was told NO. Could you address making things available to get current! I was also told by the FAA that the time spent trying to keep up on things like looking up AD's when you hear about them and or any book work finding out things( which were part of the training hours at school), cannot be use to keep you current after getting your certificates! Nothing is being done to help get mechanics current to work on aircraft for those that just like aircraft! Thanks for your time.
FAA says: "Manufacturing of any type of aircraft, including amateur-built experimental, does not count towards practical experience. However, practical experience gained on amateur-built aircraft after the aircraft has received an Airworthiness Certificate may count." EAA’s Advocacy and Safety team is actively working with FAA to reverse this policy change to restore the time spent building an E-AB as acceptable experience. Until this change takes place, we would encourage you to track your building time as we are confident that we will get this policy changed. I seriously disagree with not being able to count the time used for doing AD research, or any other "book work", if supervisory experience counts. As difficult as it is to run a small maintenance shop, and fight the supply chain to get correct parts, a solo mechanic can hardly spend 1000 hours turning wrenches and bucking rivets. Just contact as many A&P mechanics that you can find. It is very important to have others to ask questions of. This is the spirit of the law, as we can't do tasks we have not previously done with supervision. All of us have strengths that can be shared with others. If you buy a kit airplane that has an airworthiness certificate already, and needs work, you can do that, with supervision to get current. I personally do not feel that supervision needs to be real time, one on one. If you reach out as you finish a task or have questions, and the work is reviewed, how can one say there was no supervision? Are you in Florida? How can I help?
Been working on Airplanes off & on for 45 yrs, heck even took the written back in 79 -80 sure wish I'd logged time when I was working with & IA or A&P thru out the yrs 😢😢
@@bernardc2553 my wife does "supervision" for LCSW candidates. prior to licensing, they must have one year of supervision. Supervision consists of one hour, once a week, where casework is discussed, and the suggestions are made to improve the candidate's practice of social work. It's simply an organized system for mentoring.
In accordance with the FAA CFR's A&Ps mechanics certificate is held until surrendered, suspended, or revoked.. Once they have an A&P certificate they are good for life or surrendered, suspended, or revoked! IA's however do have currency standards to maintain. If your local FAA office is really telling you that BS ask them to show you the CFR's stating the currency requirement for an A&P mechanic. They might point to 14 CFR § 65.83 That CFR does not say 1000hrs as they may be telling you! There is no requirement in the CFR's requiring the A&P mechanic to log time worked on an aircraft or parts for currency status..
I would imagine going against a manual directed time limited part is not something an A&P would take upon themselves. It's maybe silly and a waste but it's in the manual or guidance we are supposed to follow. That's a manufacture gripe. There was a public high school in Detroit that taught aviation maintenance. I attended in the late 80s. I'm not sure if it's still open today though.
It’s simple economics: when demand exceeds supply, prices go up. The demand for mechanics exceeds the supply of them, so their wages must increase. The hard part is the courage for a shop owner to increase their prices to attract and retain mechanics at their new price point.
I was hoping that Mike might chime in on my comments. When I ask questions during these webinars I have never gotten my questions or statements ever asked or even mentioned! For this reason I only watch the ones that really concern me and then comment only on the youtube videos comment area as at the least youtubers comment on the topic. Thank you to those that understand the seriousness of these issues and have commented and mentioned their issues that did not get addressed during the webinars.
we're sorry your questions are not getting posed to Mike on the webinar. Tim B. moderates the questions and Mike has no control over which ones are asked. We try to read and respond to questions on the TH-cam channel here, but its a lot of work and we don't always get to all the questions. Apologies! Savvy is a small company and we all work at our best pace to interface with other pilots and mechanics. -- Colleen Sterling, for Mike Busch
Got my A and P in 2000. Got layed off from an 11 dollar an hour job doing C and D checks after 9-11. Never thought about touching an airplane since then. Might jump back into it if there is more money.
Another thing an A&P might think about borrowing from medicine: the concierge model. A single A&P shop I know and have used extensively (who occasionally works with a helper for heavier work) charges a flat annual fee that guarantees access when needed. Including annuals. The fee makes it worth his while, his shop rates are not unreasonable and his work is immaculate. This is in hyperexpensive Northern California. So it might not require 5 mechanics wrenching in a shop to predict survival. as he is doing quite well as a solo operator.
Yep - Triage is another idea.. When I have Medical appointments sometimes I don't need to see an MD so I see a PA. or NP. Every job does not need to be performed by an IA or A & P . Some less technical jobs could be performed by someone working under Shop Repairman's Certificate. This will also help keep down Shop rates instead of paying for an A & P . 65.103 Repairman certificate: Privileges and limitations. (a) A certificated repairman may perform or supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance, or alteration of aircraft or aircraft components appropriate to the job for which the repairman was employed and certificated, but only in connection with duties for the certificate holder by whom the repairman was employed and recommended. (b) A certificated repairman may not perform or supervise duties under the repairman certificate unless the repairman understands the current instructions of the certificate holder by whom the repairman is employed and the manufacturer's instructions for continued airworthiness relating to the specific operations concerned. (c) This section does not apply to the holder of a repairman certificate (light-sport aircraft) while that repairman is performing work under that certificate.
A&P's have been treated poorly and paid poorly by most GA setups and have just had enough How long have these GA mechanics been crying about lousy wages ? Then throw into the mix the LIABILITY - NO THANKS IF they were smart they'd open an automotive shop, they'd make a lot more money and could sleep at night NOT worrying about something they worked on yesterday NO shortage of parts and relatively little liability
The FAA can do more to help the situation. They need to make it easier for a A&Ps that are not currently working in the field to become current. Some of us who are retired are not necessarily concerned about working full-time. I can't be the only person that would be willing to work for friends or the EAA without payment just for the enjoyment.
A&Ps that are not currently working in the field can start right back up any time they want too...In accordance with the FAA CFR's A&Ps do not maintain a documented currency. Once they have an A&P certificate they are good for life or until surrendered, suspended, or revoked! IA's however do have currency standards to maintain. 14 CFR § 65.83 does not state anything requiring the A&P mechanic to log time worked, on an aircraft, or aircraft parts for the purpose of currency status.
@@brianyoungblood4638you do have to maintain currency to sign off on work even if you don't have to maintain currency to perform it. The regs say 6 out of the past 24 months is what is required to stay current.
I was thinking that maybe owner assisted maintenance might help with this problem. A single A&P could be assisting several owners, so long as the shop has the space. If/when I own a plane I'm going experimental in part so I can do my own maintenance.
I assure you most A&Ps will NOT want to deal with wrangling a cantankerous owner who either doesn't want to do it or does it very wrong and insists it's right. I wouldn't do it and I don't even have my cert yet.
I have read many comments on this thread and posted a few myself. Complaining about how things are will not fix them. Exercise some self help. Go get an A & P and be part of the solution. If nothing else just for doing the maintenance on your own aircraft. There are many great FAA Authorized A & P Schools around the USA and many of them offer night classes. There is definitely a shortage of A & P s and it will become larger in the the future. Sitting around and waiting for something to change or the FAA to change is nothing but an exercise in futility. It will not solve this problem.
I got out of the military and got my A&P and even my Avionics FAA certifications, I do not work in aircraft maintenance for one simple reason. Aircraft mechanics, at least the ones I interacted with, are absolutely terrible to work with and be around. They sucked, hands down. I'm talking refusal to train or teach anything, legitimately got told that dude wasn't even going to bother learning my name till I'd been there a year. I think more of myself than to deal with that garbage. The shortage is partially about old hats that cannot let go of their ego for five seconds. I loved working on planes, it was a good time and an interesting job but if the people in the industry now aren't going to accept new people in then new people will find something else to do. The knowledge transfers HIGHLY.
Was it GA? I have never turn wrenches in airlines other than on call maintenance , but I do get the sense of the union hierarchy/older mechs having that sense of superiority regarding the training and such.
I went to school for maintenance, and 2 things held me back from ever starting my career with an apprenticeship......I didn't 'know anybody', and the rates some shops offered me were not acceptable. I even had a PPL and I entirely gave up on aviation
Me too, same except I got everything but my atp! I couldn’t take the pay any longer ( back on the 90’s) when commuter airlines were making you pay for your job! 15grand to pay for your own training. It’s bullshit. I slowly and quietly dropped out. Made a shit ton in real estate.
The answer is somewhat divided. G,day Mike from Sydney Australia. Firstly long time listener, first time commenting. The airlines have the money to make employment with them so 'dang' attractive. So "lift the bar" by making aerospace engineering examinations a higher achievement level, which would possibly improve industry safety standards, then filter for a better term, the rest to the general aviation industry with its various pathways to reach part 43 compliance. Always looking forward to hearing your podcasts. 🌏🇭🇲
Is a part solution “owner maintenance” like Canada has? Here in Australia, it is almost impossible for a keen young person to become a mechanic, plus they can earn more doing anything else. We don’t have colleges where you can go do a full time course. Shops are too small or too busy or both, to take on an apprentice. Major city airports have sold or leased their land to shopping malls, leaving no space to set up a new shop!
I've long thought that a repairman's certificate for Normal and Utility category airplanes similar to the repairman's certificate for LSAs would go a long way to help this problem. It could be limited to only airplanes that you own but would allow you to do everything short of major repairs or overhauls. I find it funny that on the pilot side of things I could casually work up hours in my spare time flying my airplane to get an ATP certificate, but to do anything beyond preventative maintenance on the airplane I'd have to quit my day job and go back to school full time for 2 years.
Maybe replying to applicants sooner than 3 months after they submit an application would help. The helicopter operation I work for called me 5 hours after my application was submitted, and I interviewed the next day. Job offer made 2 days later with a salary that was 20k more than the GA shop down the street was at. However, I want to do some GA work part time during the 2 weeks off I get every month and seems like no shops are interested in working with that.
IF we followed the rules for A&P certs, the problem would be even bigger... They are supposed to keep a logbook and are technically required to have been instructed/supervised by another A&P for ANY work they do. For example, they cant go replacing a Mooney aileron unless they have replaced a Mooney aileron while under the supervision of another A&P who has done that procedure and signed their logbook. How many times has your A&P said " I've never done that before " ?
I wanted to become an A&P. My local community college launched an 18-month program, but because it was not accredited I was not eligible for student loans or financial aid. I cannot afford to go to school 40 hours per week and pay my bills in California.
I like the idea of a maintenance club, the big problem with it is would they be willing to pay appropriately? I would bet good money that they wouldn't.
As an A&P, Army UH-60 helicopter Crew Chief, Commercial Pilot, CFI, Test Pilot, I didn't make sh"t. I went back to my family's business and maintain my own aircraft.
Back in the 70s , when I was young, I performed maintenance on a Lake A/C Work was perfect but he put me off on paying me .He drove an old wore out Buick to the airport . I went to his house, beach lot in F,l and there were two M/B in the garage and the Buick outside . He finally paid. Copper wire was invented by two pilots fighting over a penny ! Just remember all aviation costs are fixed, EXCEPT MECHANICS PAY ! Bunch of cheap people in the aviation industry . JMHO !
We took shop class out of high school. We give kids tablets and video games as soon as they can hold them, so there is no tinkering with bikes or go-carts. A 4 year degree is promoted as the only path to prosperity. All trades have suffered because of this.
Pay and lack of shops accepting people that are still in school or just graduated seems to be an issue too. My father in-law has owns and operates a maintenance business and even he's said companies just aren't taking people right out of school. So seems to me the issue is within the industry itself and not a lack of A&P mechanics hopefuls. As a prior AF aircraft structural maintenance I would have been in the industry but I'm not going to blow my GI Bill on an industry that won't hire me when I finish school.
The Airlines are looking for people with good Structure Experience at their Overhaul Bases. Our Structure AMT's are presently doing B737 NG Pickle Fork replacements which is a major structure job. I can tell you personally that the mass exodus of Pilot and Mechanic retirements has already started and they will have to lower their experience requirements due to market conditions. I work for a major airline that will hire people right out of school if they can pass a basic mechanic skills test AND a DOT DRUG TEST. The number of applicants failing the DOT DRUG TEST is staggering. Some of the Applicants right out of school are failing the basic skills test such as demonstrating proper safety wire procedures. Not sure what schools they came from. A tenured Airline AMT can easily earn $120K per year plus benefits. I would apply at EVERY MAJOR AIRLINE and UPS or Fed Ex.. I used my GI Bill for my A & P and was a very good decision for me. [different time- different era]
28:14 I DREAM of doing more of my own maintenance, problem is the FAA strictly forbids it. and mechanics refuse to do supervised maintenance a lot of the time (let you do all of the work, and just inspect your work as needed before buttoning things up). Preventative maintenance covers almost NOTHING that i need to do. none of my preventative things need done very often. but I have actual things that should be fixed or cleaned up, and those are "preventative" even though that's Exactly what it really is.
@@guitarhillbilly1482 getting an A&P, is exactly the issue. what is helped by getting an A&P? most of them don't want to help without charging more than the airplane is worth, when I could do it myself for less than $100.
I work for a part 145 repair station working only on corporate business jets. There’s no money in GA and it’s not worth the hassle. Got my IA 2 years ago just for the purpose of doing my own annuals. Experimental Aviation is the way to go these days. Better technology/parts are easily accessible/easily to work on/you can do your own conditional inspection. The Certified GA world is dying.Unless you’re an A&P IA,I would stay away from certificated ACFT.
I know of a hard working 50 something A+P/DOM having health issues. He's trying, but the job is too physical. Retirement is coming. And, he's not the only one. There are a good number of guys well into their late 60's or early 70's still turning wrenches. How long will they continue? 2, 3 years at most? They understand their enjoyment of retired life is shortened by working, eventually, no amount of money will keep them on. Off they go too.
It's a problem with many causes and plenty of blame to pass around. One minor solution might be to encourage LSA Repairman certificates. There may only be one "FAA-approved" school - Rainbow Aviation, in Missouri. Graduates of a three-week intensive program are allowed to do Annuals and certain minor maintenance on LSA Aircraft. There is even provision for LSA Repairmen Certificate holders to become A&Ps with sufficient experience.
The ONLY reason im pursuing my IA is because i recently bought a C150. I have absolutely no desire to work GA. Pay needs to double or triple to be competitve. Especially if you want a mechanic to move to BFE.
I worked helicopters for years, but I decided i needed to retire. I sold my soul and went to work civil service at Edwards AFB, sat on my butt for 10 years, made twice the money, and have a good retirement. now that I'm retired i wouldn't mind getting a partime job working G.A. to keep busy.
UAL is offering a $75K bonus at SFO, not $5K. Also, airlines hiring “ off street” right out of A&P school with ZERO experience. Remember, after 9/11 and all the bankruptcy and mergers, there was no mechanic hiring for almost 10 years, the “lost decade”. Most A&P schools dried up during that time
GA has themselves to blame. Too many Decades of low pay and benefits for A & P 's . This forced many A & P 's to the airlines for much better wages and benefits. I'm one of those who left GA for this reason. I love GA and AG Aviation. The problem for GA is going to get a lot worse because Airlines are losing HUGE Numbers of A & P's to RETIREMENTS. GA will be competing with the Airlines for fewer A & P applicants on the open market. A Tenured mechanic at a major airline is currently earning about $60.00 / HR in wages. ADD Matching 401ks - Health Insurance - Flight Benefits and the total compensation package is about $90 - $100 / HR. How does GA compete with that?
I'm an airline mechanic and I already grossed $60K for the year without killing myself with a ton of overtime, in December 2021 when my A&P school had a career fair everyone mobbed the airline tables and the few GA shops were almost deserted.
@@SoloRenegade The very same Aircraft Owners that complain about Aircraft Maintenance Shop rates think nothing of taking their Lexus to the dealership and pay $130-$150 / HR Shop rate. Big Disconnect. Most A & P's will choose the Airlines over GA due to economics.
@@TheReadBaron91 owners react to the circumstance they are given. owners do not set part prices, FAA regulations, etc. give me a specific example of where owners are responsible for the mess we're in.
I've been considering getting my A&P so this sounds like a perfect time to get involved. In your opinion what would be the best route to take to getting certified, going to an actual school for A&P or going to work for a shop to get the practical experience?
From Chuck FAA A&P. 70 years. A&P requires civilian school of 12 to 14 months. If youare mechical inclined, cars etc, its's possible. Aircraft have 12 complex systems to learn, and many types of aircraft are different, you must have the knowledge to work on. And the work manuals to aid repair the aircraft and engine. My aircraft school is military air force, 30 years, and General aircraft, 70 years and still, learning. In my words, even certificated, all aircraft problems are not the same. Advise, some A&P to get the mechanics story. Repair and airworthy an aircraft is on the mechanic sign off, so you better make sure the job is " the repair is as original design " Pay, well, should be with auto mechanic, but it's not. Hope I partly scared you. C F.
Galen, I will tell you now. Aviation as a whole is absolutely booming. It is the perfect opportunity to get into the industry as a pilot and a mechanic. I'm currently trying to do both. I recently passed my A&P General written exam, and im going for my airframe license, and I'll be starting to work at my flight school as an apprentice. I will warn you though, some general aviation shops are very short handed. The last place I worked at was a family owned business, who had 4 A&Ps and 2 A&P IA's. But the shop lost 3 out of the 4 A&Ps because of maintenance facilities with higher wages. Leaving me and one A&P to do ALL the work. We hung out in that situation for about two months. So when people talk about the mechanic shortage, it. Is. REAL. But as a mechanic first coming into the A&P world, a GA shop is a great place to start. You'll work on a variety of aircraft from a Cessna 150, to a Cessna Citation CJ2. And as for the schooling, there are two routes. One is going to a trade school for 18 months and test for your airframe and powerplant. Or you can work at an a maintenance hangar as an apprentice for 30 months, and test for your A&P.
Don't it's a time sink with low pay and shit benefits even at the airline level. . If you love being treated like trash with 60 plus hour weeks , divorces ( most a&ps have multiple) and dying broke be my guest . But what do I know I've only been in aviation for 37 yrs professionally.
Been in Aviation for 50 years at several different levels. A lot of the actual wrench turning is not difficult if you have any mechanical abilities. The MAJOR part of an A & P job requires excellent reading comprehension because that will be a very big part of your job. Aircraft Maintenance Manuals - Engine Manuals - Service Bulletins - AD's - Engineering Drawings- TI's - and list goes on. Some AD's almost take a Law Degree to correctly interpret. There are some very good Aviation Maintenance Schools around the U.S. That's my take on your question.
The A&P certification process is outdated and an obstacle. General Aviation continues to shrink, Experimental market is the ONLY avenue of growth. The A&P certification process is another nail in the coffin.
yup. I've been advocating breaking A&P into its constituent areas, and make getting those mere weeks. Sheet metal Fabric Wood Welding Piston Engines Avionics Composites Turbines/Jet engines etc. make it so people can learn only what they need to know, and make it easier to get the cert. I can't quit my job in engineering to get 2yrs of experience just so I can do it on the side.
@@SoloRenegade Don't have to quit your job. Many of us A & P's worked full time day jobs and went to full time night classes for 18 months at an FAA Authorized School. In fact the GI Bill paid for my A & P License.
@@guitarhillbilly1482 yeah, I did night class for the past 7 years, plus many years of college prior to that, 14 FAA certificates prior to that, plus multiple years n combat before that, plus serving in the Army while still in High School before that. no thanks. I have multiple degrees in engineering, and that more than qualifies me to work on airplanes. All it should take for me is to take some training on regulations, and stuff like that. And I have no interest in working on jet engines, avionics, and stuff like that. I just want to be able to work on things related to my airplane like sheet metal, piston engines, etc. If I can design them, build them, work on them, then I can do maintenance on them. Also, there is NO A&P training within hours of where I live.....
@@SoloRenegade At most major airlines the AMT is paid more than an engineer. Especially entry level engineers. Quote: "I have multiple degrees in engineering, and that more than qualifies me to work on airplanes." Only in your mind. Not according to the FAA or the major Airlines. In fact many Maintenance Engineering positions at Major Airlines NOW require both the Degree and the License.
He mentioned TBO for auxiliary parts like alternators and to instead run parts until failure…on the upwind over a populated area😐. GA fleet is just too old and technologically outdated requiring massive redundancies and high maintenance costs and cycles. Hybrid and Electric powertrains are unfortunately not available yet.
@@jonasbaine3538 ok. Yeah. I wrote this before end. Not sure there are lots of this... over maintaining. This has to do with litigation in US. This will not change ever
Owning an experimental alleviates some of the reliance on mechanic shops right? Also sounds like being in a club is better than solo ownership because you will be a higher priority customer when needing maintenance.
The current shortage of airplane mechanics, especially apparent within legacy airlines operating in locations like San Francisco, is a pressing issue that's being addressed with stop-gap measures, such as offering signing bonuses of up to $75k to attract those with an A&P Certificate. However, this approach is yielding a cohort of mechanics who are fast-tracked through training with little experience, resulting in individuals being 777 release qualified within just a year. This can be perceived as a byproduct of the industry's struggle to resonate with younger generations like Gen Z and Alpha Gen, often because the trade is viewed as outdated and unappealing. The underrepresentation of mechanics' interests, evidenced by the fact that our certificates seem stuck in the 60s and there are few advocates within influential organizations like the FAA, only exacerbates the problem. The mechanic's role, crucial but often unseen, stands in stark contrast to the glorified image of pilots, reinforcing an unfortunate analogy where pilots are the rock stars and mechanics the roadies. This status quo needs to change if we hope to make this critical profession attractive to future generations and maintain the safety and efficiency standards of the aviation industry.
I think the medical boutique model is some blend of PREMIUM PRICED RETAIL SERVICE and INSURANCE (pooled risk). Totally different businesses and tough to bundle IMHO. I'm not sure how these doctors get higher rates (superior reputation, guaranteed short wait times, etc.). Will that model will prove sustainable as the presumably young client base ages, fat tail events inevitably hit, the reality of 30%+ long-term annual inflation rate of US medical costs, etc.? Pooled risk is a really tough game. Insurance companies have armies of actuaries and state regulators but some still fail (e.g. AIG). Casinos run big statistics, with a favourable bias built in, so maybe that is an outlier. Airlines can do this with large data sets, huge fixed costs to burn, and decent customer segregation. Many banks have failed in the statistics game. More relevant example. 20-years ago, a lot of mom & pop home heating oil companies offered guaranteed (or pre-paid) pricing for fuel oil. That was a profitable business for several years, particularly for the companies not paying for "insurance" to underwrite these contracts (I think wall street was the ultimate originator of the insurance). Until prices spiked and total chaos ensued. Small airplane maintenance shops will need some reason to justify premium prices. And they will have a difficult time making good actuarial estimates (need lots of good historic data, lots of clients, lots of capital, a good margin of error, etc.). There are insurers in the "automobile maintenance" world. Auto makers, with new car factory warranties, say for x years or y miles. Third-party insurers also exist for new and used cars. I don't think either are "consumer favourites". Auto warranties are an ugly place for consumers IMHO. I also fear MORAL HAZARD with the boutique maintenance model. That is, troublesome airplanes will migrate to your shop. Non-problematic new planes will migrate to the traditional hourly rate shops. Fleets will have the resources and data to game the system. I also think most retailers & service providers should be making money from every single customer (maybe profitability is measured by customer over a few years). But I can't see any reason to keep big clients that lose money every single year. There could be a handful of small exceptions, such as a favourite charity, some famous local pilot that provides marketing or reputational points (the big client that covers overhead is not convincing, particularly given the shortage of mechanics in GA). Supermarkets have loss-leaders, such as produce and dairy. But that is a different case. Those foods bring in customers who stuff their baskets with profitable junk food. So "all" the supermarket customers are profitable. Sorry for the stream of consciousness ramble but this is a fascinating topic, minefield. Great video, as always.
Cost benefit analysis. If you underpay technicians, across the industry, you will push talent to seek living wages (or just appropriate wages for their level of expertise) elsewhere.
the 2009 Coleal letter still requires a petition be filed to expand Preventative Maintnance tasks... this is FAR too burdensome an expectation just to maintain airplanes in basic safe working condition.
We need some relief... Older certified aircraft need to be the same rules as experimental. No reason that should not be the case... maybe a "classic" airworthiness certificate or something. Also, are shops currently allowing or facilitating Owner assisted annuals? If I could go to the shop and do the piddly work to help get er done and save myself some $ I would.
Some individual IA's will allow the owner to open non structural access panels and interior access to save time which equals dollars. Most Shops probably have Liability Insurance Restrictions on allowing non-employees performing work in the Shop. I do agree that some GA airplanes that are NOT used for Hire could have some less restrictive maintenance requirements concerning who performs the maintenance.
The "deferred maintenance " that you predict will happen...I agree, it will. Making the GA mechanic's job even worse, and more fraught with liability. I tried to have a love for this for almost 30 years, and am fairly done with it, working only occasionally for friends. Annuals...maybe never again. To owners who want those while skimping on repairs: Think of it this way- you are comfortable asking for some things to be overlooked? That isn't legal, and you'd like me to take the risk? So that you can fly around with my name in the logs? If you feel the need for something sketchy to happen so that you may fly, then take the risk yourself. Fly without it, play dumb if you get caught, rather than expecting me to take the risk. Still sound like a good idea? I didn't think so. I've been a little slow realizing that the pay, benefits, liability, and working conditions are not very good, and not improving. Friends still doing it say the same thing, and feel stuck. We also have discouraged our children from the field. I am slightly embarrassed by my negativity, after reading over this, but it is simply true. Non aviation friends have commented "you must really love it"...haha. The solution- better pay, benefits, conditions, etc. are so obvious, but so difficult to achieve. A shop that just decides to fix those problems would likely put itself out of business. I don't know the answer, other than very slow incremental changes that might take decades. There will be some turmoil between now and then.
I applied for my repairman certificate in Jan 2023 and still haven't heard back let alone got it. I've heard similar horror stories to renew IA and A&P. I think the best course of action is to abolish the FAA. Anyone who writes "sentences" like they do in the FAR AIM should be tarred and feathered imo.
The vast majority of general aviation aircraft are old technology..i love it. However most rural shops are manned by 60 year old men. Its a tough job and airlines and high tech jobs pay more and are more attractive. Rural airports are dying...economically. its a downward spiral..as costs get higher and margins are squeezed. Most rural airports are county owned and state owned funded by taxes. Not so with A&P shops.
From what I see in my 18 years of maintenance & engineering in GA and airlines, the new crop of young A&Ps are not motivated and lack critical thinking skills. They are only motivated by $. A&P schools are easier and easier to complete. Many schools want the government dollars and don’t care if the students actually learn.
Two things. There is a quiescent base level for all aircraft owners. Insurance, fuel, and storage, now add in the cost of parts. Everyone knows that a 12v light bulb stamped with a PMA is a lot more expensive for very little reason. Same with avionics. Tell me that a certified Garmin box is different than a non-certified. Does anyone think Garmin makes two different G3X boxes? This quiescent level puts pressure on A&P mechanics and shops driving down what people can and in some instances want to pay. Secondly, mechanics are like many blue collar works. They are expecting really high pay for relatively unskilled labor. Yes, they get training but I’ve taught mechanics and many, not all, don’t have critical thinking skills. They may learn it after a decade of work but in the interim they often waste a lot of time chasing their tail. Replacing the wrong parts, getting lost in the problem. They have friends who work in other hands on jobs getting ridiculous amounts of money. This is a society problem. I live in an area where a garage door repairman can charge $400 to put a cable back on the wheel. 30 min job equates to $800 per hour. A similar problem exists where workers think they should make a living off every job. Pool maintenance people in the New England area charge twice as much as in florida. Why, because they say they only get half a season. Not all jobs can supply enough money to make a living. It’s a reality of life that has been corrupted by our society. I’m not picking on mechanics. A fedex piloting can make 350,000 per year for flying boxes. That is just as wrong. Most pilots love flying and would do it for free on someone else’s gas. You made a lot of great points. Why can’t the faa modernize owner maintenance like they did to fix basic medical. I don’t see how an owner who put 10,000 rivets in an experimental knows much more about his plane than an owner who has really dug into his planes over 20 years. Why doesn’t the faa expand the owner list of things they can do. The faa could apply the helmet law philosophy. The government spent years forcing people to wear helmets until someone figured out, it’s your head. Admittedly, a plane falling out of the sky on to someone is a possibility but do you hear about that. There was a similar analysis on people getting sick while flying and falling out of the sky. It was rare. The fact you mention so many planes have been purchased with lots of worked need ignores the fact the previous owner was flying that plane. You are right, needs fixing, but all angles should be addressed. Mechanics, owners, and the faa.
@@guitarhillbilly1482 Exactly, I tell guys all the time if the owner has the money to buy a $3-$5 Million dollar aircraft they have the money to keep it maintained. If not, then they have a $3-$5 Million paperweight.
I replied this to another comment, but I think it’s worth posting here as well. Same exact problem in the automotive industry. They think all techs are identical and interchangeable, and treat us like we’re uneducated dimwits. Then they wonder why they can’t retain techs. Same shit, different toilet. The problem is that the trades get demonized and anyone who doesn’t go to university and get a 4 year degree is seen as worthless and undeserving of consideration. Then they need us to maintain all their fancy shit, and wonder why we have an attitude about being told how worthless we are while simultaneously demanding that we serve them with a smile. They can all get F’ed. I have turned my last wrench for customers.
WHY is it - you can freely maintain and repair your car, your motorcycle, your boat, but not your airplane? I just don't understand what's the big deal. If you botch your brake job on your car, that has serious implications, you could kill people too. I'm sure there are numb-nuts worldwide maintaining their own cars and they shouldn't be left alone with as much as a pencil sharpener. Fundamentally, why is private airplane maintenance holier than thou?
If the shop rates increase then I expect the quality of the labor to increase with it. I have tried 3 different A&P's with IA privileges in the area and their work has been subpar compared to what I can do myself. I had one guy spent 8 and a 1/2 hours troubleshooting a bad connection to a switch. I could have bought 8 brand new switches for that. I had another guy "Fix" my exzaust leak by installing new gaskets but used the old coroded hardware. A few hours after that fix one of the studs backed out and another 1 broke in flight. I shouldn't be the one doing better work on my airplane than someone with. IA privileges it's ridiculous. I shouldn't have to be schooling these people on how to do something properly and by the book.
@guitar hillbilly unfortunately I have a more than full-time job, so I can not dedicate the hours needed to achieve it in a reasonable amount of time. But more my point the quality of A&Ps seems to be low and needs to be resolved. A lot of wasted man hours on jobs because of lack of proficiency and understanding.
@@shadowsrwolf You are correct that the Mechanic should have used new Bolts/ Studs when replacing the exhaust gaskets. The issue is that some owners would complain about the extra cost of the hardware and ask why did you not Re-use the existing Hardware? The IA should have contacted you or told you up front about the cost of new hardware or included it in his Bid. Unfortunately you have to deal with the lack of situational awareness in the A & P ranks just like the pilot ranks. In the Airline Maintenance business the labor costs and parts cost for repair are weighed against the replacement cost of a unit / assembly. Sometimes a Vendor will screw the Airline on parts prices and make the parts more expensive to purchase for repair than buying a NEW Replacement Assembly. Hope you have nothing but clear skies ahead.
@@guitarhillbilly1482 oooo even better I procured the parts for that repair and assumed he used all the new parts.... they were all together with the new gaskets
When your ground support equipment personnel make as much if not more than an A&P without the schooling what do you expect... A GSE tech mid grade can make $32 per hour. (Prime Flight Aviation Services). Coming from automotive, Automotive engines are highly computerized, GA powerplant technology is comparable to lawnmower engines. Problem is kids don't want to get there hands dirty, hot and sweaty... It's the same problem in automotive. You are going to have to grow your own...High schools use to have automotive programs, High schools don't have the funds anymore. Self funded apprenticeship programs, you want to survive you are going to have to invest in training your own personnel. I have been working on cars/trucks/heavy equipment for 25+ years and have held ASE's the entire time, Master technician 15 years , If I wanted to go aviation now I would start at ground ZERO. Maybe getting credit toward A&P with knowledge testing, might get converts. Everyone has cars/trucks, not everyone has a aircraft.
I worked twenty years as an A&P- ten in corporate helicopters and ten in light GA aircraft. I now make more money in another maintenance related field, in a nice shop- heated in the winter and cooled in the summer, and I don't worry about my mistakes killing anyone. I miss working on airplanes but I don't miss the feeling of being a servant taking care of rich boy toys. Working on machines I would never have any hope of affording myself took a lot of the love out of it. That and a lot of those machines are getting really old and there is a lot of shady things going on out there to keep them "legal".
I agree, I am a non practicing A&P
@@Robert-uo6qi Agree, ageing aircraft is a massive problem that is not getting addressed. Aircraft we get for inspection are in horrible shape and take weeks or months to correct all the discrepancies.
As another non-practicing A&P, I also agree !
What field did you move to
I am a non practicing A&P. I never worked in GA because of the awful pay. My avg offer in Connecticut was 8.75hr in the early 2000s. I was lucky to fall into LSA and made twice the amount. The LSA field was so much fun, I miss it a lot.
I am amazed by the low shop rates. I charged lift truck customers 240hr mobile shop rate.
I'm a couple of breaths away from getting my certificates, and I've described every GA shop that's come to chat as being "very competitive with fast food wages"
Bonus points if they said "we treat our employees like family". I've done a lot of free work for family over the years.
I had a friend who worked in a Cessna aircraft repair shop. He made $6,000 per year. Just being able to touch, let alone accomplish work on a Million dollar airplane is a privilege. So, the mechanic was privileged to be working on expensive aircraft and getting paid for it. 🤠
This was the exact reason I never went to A&P school in 2005.
Mike's idea of a maintenance club is very solid. I was a member of a flying club that had it's own A&P/IA. He was on salary to specifically maintain the club's dozen aircraft. The salary was part of the monthly dues, just like hangar, parts reserves, etc. He took care of those planes like they were his babies, because in reality they were. He had a comparable salary, and much much less stress. A win-win for everyone. The hopes that the government will improve archaic rules is like hoping to win the lotto.
I’m an IA who’s been an A&P doing GA work for 15+ years. Over the last year I’ve told all my customers it’s my last. I’m working through my backlog of currently scheduled annuals and looking forward to being done with GA maintenance by the end of next month. The pay is simply not worth my time anymore.
I have been treated like I am lucky to be allowed to work on aircraft, you know, because it is such an honour..abused and underpaid for far too long. I now earn roughly 4 times what I used to as a technician. There is no shortage of people with a passion for GA work, but even passionate aviation loving technical minded people need to pay their mortgage and buy food. I now own my own aeroplane (something that was impossible as a technician) and work on it myself, since it is very hard to find a workshop with available slots. Aircraft maintainers are top people with a lot of talent and can find work in any other job out there if they want to. There is no shortage - there is a shortage of proper pay, and the respectful treatment that the job deserves.
AMEN!
If you don't mind, how do you make money now?
I work for an IT startup
Unfortunately, you are too correct !
I worked under my A&P for 10 years before I gave up and took a different career path. As much as love working on a/c, I couldn't see a path to making the income I desired. Now that I'm getting a little older I've been thinking about it more, but It just doesn't pay what I feel my times worth. I would love to go back into aviation, and would if they'd get off that wallet, and offer a reasonable wage that compares with the skill and commitment required to do the job. And that's not even bringing up the liability, that alone should easily warrant more than any automotive tech. position pays !
Too true... worked GA for a long time and was tired of being poor. Went corporate. Bye bye GA, get bent.
As an a&p. Shops need to pay more to retain mechanics. And not treat them like they are replaceable. Mechanic have been treated like we are just dumb monkeys. Now they are whining about not finding mechanics. Hahahah
Same with pilots. I worked at an aircraft mfg and they have been treating the production test pilots and demo pilots like cattle. Guess what - the airlines are snapping them up like crazy for way better money. Management is saying “you have to do work the weekend and be in the office Monday to Friday even if you aren’t flying - stupid stuff like that which in the past they could get away with. Now the pilots are saying no I don’t - I quit! More power to ‘em!
You are correct.
Pay better and charge more
I want the mechanic working on my plane to be well paid
@@texasspinesurgeon any mechanic will tell you that many aircraft owners, including the very wealthy ones, are notoriously cheap
Want mechanics? Pay them. Pure and simple. As discussed, when we can make more in the automotive industry, with almost none of the responsibility that comes with maintaining aircraft, who in their right mind would choose aviation? You can say it's for the love, but when we're priced out of the aeroplane market, there's no incentive. And thats just to keep the seasoned guys, trying to attract young folks is an even harder issue, money is only the tip of the iceberg.
you are very correct.
Not arguing, but curious. Once you have IA, go out on your own? All of the independents in my area do very well for themselves.
@@prodigalpilot that's certainly a route many of us aim towards, but it comes at huge cost. Facility, overheads, equipment, insurance etc and all the usual struggles new business go through. If you can afford to weather the first few years, you'll probably make it in the long run, but you have to be able to afford to survive the first few years. it takes a long time to build up the initial capital and resources when you're working as an aircraft mechanic.
@@professordexter3563 thanks, I do appreciate the capital investment. I would counter that a less expensive way would be a service truck and do “house calls”. Such mechanic is difficult to find, but I know many other owners who would be thrilled to have someone come do maintenance, rather than dealing with delivering aircraft to a Mx facility. Blue skies
I recently looked into A&P schools and job market. It was rapidly revealed that it was my worst career option relative to the required skills and liabilities.
I could not make any financial sense of it.
huge liabilities. commercial aviation has unions for a reason...
Wrenching on your own in GA, sure. Working for an MRO or commercial/mil can be very lucrative.
gov overregulation
@@SoloRenegade I can't say I agree with that. A&P's need to be regulated carefully.
The cost of the red tape simply needs to be passed to the aircraft owners like everything else.
This is not a place for a free-for-all.
@@jonasbaine3538 at an airline we can file TSAP reports if we committed an honest mistake, its our version of the ASAP report. As long as you make a good to honest effort in following the AMM/Engineering orders and you do your due diligence an TSAP will help you if you get in a bind.
An old DOM told me a long time ago that an airplane is safer the day it goes in for an annual than the day it comes out of annual. In thirty years I have never been able to prove him wrong. On another note, I would never recommend a career in GA maintenance. High liability and low return on investment. There are so many better ways to support yourself now. Now you bring up owner maintenance... In my experience, people that can afford airplanes have no business turning wrenches on airplanes.
the liability issue is way too overblown for GA. liability for aviation should be no more than it is for cars.
I've been a aircraft mechanic for 15 years. Shops don't want to pay their mechanics, benefits are nonexistent and treat you like you are replaceable. No wonder this is where we are. Currently working to my degree so I can stop wrenching.
As for Mikes comments on reducing preventative maintenance, when we start to see law suits lost for plaintiffs claiming technician/shop negligence and insurance premiums go down we can start talking about a reduction. Until then, not going to happen.
I NEED to be in Boston in six hours.........can't you just.........
You know EXACTLY what I'm referring too....
Tell whoever to do it themselves....
Owners should do as much of their own maintenance as possible. Keeping the ship clean and well lubricated is 90% of the job. I take this further, I shower every day and then have a few beers; that’s ‘clean and lubricated’ by any definition 😂
aviation maintenance is far too over regulated.
If I want to get my car fixed, i can do it my self or take it to any shop and get it fixed.
If I want to fix my airplane, i feel like I'm facing FBI interrogation or going to go to prison if I dare try to fix my plane properly. or I'll be extorted criminally high prices for things that should cost less than $10. FAA has even told mechanics to stop fixing planes. And slammed the door in the face of people like myself regarding getting my A&P on teh side.
@@SoloRenegade its because even with all the regulations you have a lot of owners who still try to skirt the fine line between prudent minimal maintenance and lack of maintenance that is in the negligence level. For the airlines things like Alaska 261 happened because management didn't want the cost of taking the airplane out of service to lube the jackscrew per the AMM's schedule. They kept deferring it until the thing failed and people lost their lives in a fairly terrifying manner.
Most of the time if a car has a major problem, you can simply pull over and wait for a tow, you can't do that in an airplane. There are some car owners who are so bad that the shop themselves refuse to work on it out of liability concerns especially if the customer is known for refusing work like replacing brake pads that are completely worn off or tires that are mostly metal mesh because the treads wore off long ago. These are mainly issues in states without safety inspections.
@@JohnDoe-ks6is "For the airlines things like Alaska 261 happened because management didn't want the cost of taking the airplane out of service to lube the jackscrew per the AMM's schedule. "
we'll, for starters, we're not talking about commercial maintenance here. there you go making assumptions again.
"you can simply pull over and wait for a tow, you can't do that in an airplane."
wrong, it's called a precautionary landing, and many aircraft have a checklist procedure for it in their POH.
also, bad example. If I want to put a new GPS in my car, I can. If I want to work on the engine, I can. If I want to do interior repair, I can.
If I want to repair the god awful dash panel in my airplane that has been hacked and slashed on for decades with a new one, I can't. Buying a new panel costs $1200, and still needs to be installed, when I can make one myself for about $40 (I'm a mechanical and aerospace engineer as well as CFII, who designs airplanes and sheet metal structures). If I want to replace my cracked spinner plate with a new one that is better designed and brand new for $30, I can't. But I can buy one that is 70yrs old, fatigued, bent, corroded for $300 and legally install that, until it too cracks in flight a few hours later.
If the chinsy paper thin door on the airplane malfunctions, I can't fix it. and too expensive to justify fixing it. Even thought a child could fix it.
I can legally design and build airplanes, but can't work on them. I can design parts and aircraft, write teh manuals, draw up the procedures mechanics are required to follow, and write the books mechanics might study from to get certified but I can't work on those same airplanes. How stupid does that sound to you? the guy who literally can design them, can't work on them? who knows an airplane and its parts better than a person who designs the parts? In no other industry is a mechanic placed in higher status than the engineers.
Aviation in general has not kept pace with the other technical trades; for years, it had the luxury of an endless supply of incoming mechanics lined up at the door for a chance to be involved in an industry they loved. Now that that supply has dried up, aviation must compete head-to-head with the other technical trades for skilled labor and is completely unprepared to recruit or retain skilled mechanics.
GA repair stations, having kept shop rates artificially low for so long in an attempt to retain the dwindling number of "cheapskate" private owner/operator customers operating neglected "legacy" airplanes have sabatoged their own ability to compete financially with the other aviation companies competing for that skilled labor. It's not that there are no NEW mechanics entering the work force, they just aren't entering QA because they can't make a mortgage payment with their love of aviation.
Running GA airplanes "on condition" or as "owner-maintained experimentals" to reduce maintenance costs will keep the private owner/operator flying a few years longer, but it won't provide the GA shop the ability to generate the revenue to attract and retain mechanics. This won't end well, but it will end. The financially stronger shops will survive, the weak will not.
My advice to GA Shop Managers: raise your rates now, eliminate your "charity" customers, and figure out how to profitably perform the maintenance you can with the mechanics you already have for the customers that can "afford" to pay you for your services. And some of them can "afford" your professional services, just look at the cars in your parking lot.
(I'm a 25 year civilian helicopter AME in Canada; when I entered the work force in 1997, I never understood how GA could attract/retain mechanics when their shop rates were so low and they paid mechanics so little. It didn't seem sustainable back then, and it still doesn't now.)
Airlines will be sucking up new mechanics like a vacuum. It's hard to compete with their pay and benefits, that and as an airline mechanic you get to fix things without dealing with picky owners
You are very correct.
I left the automotive industry after 30 years. I’m an ASE L1. I worked for an IA for 5 years and got my A&P and Private pilots license. I absolutely love Aviation! Unfortunately, I had to return to automotive. I didn’t want to, but I simply couldn’t afford to stay. The Aviation community I was around, I consider family. Great people! I try to help friends with aircraft with the free time I have. Hopefully shop rates and benefits can change for the better soon.
Thank you for these great webinars! I listen to all of them.
LOL. and automotive is not much fun either. But, you don't have worry about being blamed for a pilot error accident.
@@johnschreiber1574 plus the attic expense of getting sued regardless
I'm an A&P with 30 + years in aviation that recently left aviation. My experience started in GA, extended to Northrop Grumman Flight Test (Bac 1-11's, Saber 40's, B-737, CRJ 900's), worked for Quest Aircraft in their Customer Service dept (Kodiak 100's), and recently worked for a classified operator with a fleet of C-208B's and B350's. At the heigth of of career pay I was a salaried A&P with Northrop Grumman making over $100K including OT. I left aviation because I simply needed to do something different. I agree with everything Mike said, he speaks with common sense wisdom. The FAA needs leadership wisdom like Mike has, unfortunatly, like all government bureaucracies they value politics over wisdom.
As a 25+ year aircraft mechanic I have never heard of the idea of an "over maintained" aircraft. It is an interesting concept. But how do you determine where the sweet spot in that scale is, how do you know if you have slipped to "under maintained", without risking killing people? From the point of view of an experienced aircraft mechanic I am not at all concerned with litigation, I am worried about making smoking holes in the ground with dead people in them. I can deal with lawyers, but I can't live with myself if I know that I caused someone's death, especially if it was caused by something that was done to save an owner a few hundred dollars. We deal in a lot of absolutes that other mechanics don't, bad mistakes have life altering consequences, which also could be contributing to the difficulty in recruiting. Very interesting post, thanks for your time and effort.
Funny thing is that I pay my shop $130/hr. I think he pays his guys well because a few of them have built their own planes. I paid a previous shop $95/hr in a less ritzy area, and he was only paying his guys $20/hr. They darn near all walked out in the middle of my project, but the shop owner compromised with $35/hr. Still way underpaid imo, even in a crappy area.
I would think if the mechanics all got together and put their foot down the shop owners would have to concede and pay them decent money.
This is one of the main reasons I’m building my own airplane.
It’s because you can get paid better elsewhere, and not get treated like you’re simply an expense, whether it be from the aircraft owners, shop owners or airline management,
I got lucky with the shop I work for.
There are a bunch of retired guys with mechanical experience looking for retirement side hustles. Can’t shop owners hire them as techs and delegate work with A&P oversight?
Hi all - I’m finishing up my A&P coursework while working the lesser fulfilling, higher paying day job in SoCal. The program needs a major overhaul to attract more enrollment! My goal is to do exactly that! GA is my passion and I love the school… looking for a network…
For seven months, I worked at a general aviation shop right next to the aircraft maintenance school that I’m attending to gain experience as an apprentice, and I personally experienced the shortage in mechanics. When I started at this shop, there were a total of 4 A&Ps in the maintenance shop, two IA’s, and three guys in the avionics shop one hangar over from the main hangar. Four months in, three guys left because there were companies offering higher wages, and were closer to all three of their homes. Leaving me, 1 A&P, and two IA’s. Whenever I hear someone mention the mechanic shortage, I always say it’s not the airlines who are struggling, it the general aviation sector that’s been struggling. Which is upsetting, because I LOVE general aviation. And that’s one reason why I’ve been working on getting my A&P license, so I can work on my own airplane one day whenever I own one. And potentially get my IA to work on my annuals as well.
I have an AI who works on many aircraft at our airport. He has a shop, but he comes to us which he loves because when an aircraft is down waiting for parts it's still in our hangar, taking up our space. He charges a healthy hourly rate, but he keeps it all and even charges for drive time. We keep him busy, as he's way more convenient than taking an aircraft somewhere and having to get home. It's a win/win for everybody. He has lost his helper, and can't find anyone to replace him, but that just means we have to help when we can.
I am an instructor and a former 135 FO flying Lears. This is not just a problem in aviation. This is a problem for every single trade. This is a problem for airlines. This is a problem for anyone who needs to hire technically oriented people. The problem comes from the fact that there are many jobs today that pay much better than the jobs that we are discussing….jobs that have less liability….that have shorter hours….that have better working conditions….that don’t have you sitting reserve in a cheap room….that don’t have you wondering if you’re going to lose your job because you might lose your medical. When I started flying back in the 1990s, there was very little information available about wages, and about other jobs that could be performed for higher wages. Today a person can find out all kinds of information with just a few clicks of that mouse, and that is the reason that everyone is having trouble finding people to go into the fields that don’t pay as much….and that isn’t going to change until there isn’t a difference of wages, and better working conditions and protection from liability. If those things don’t happen, this is only going to get worse and I know it seems like it can’t get worse but trust me………it can.
The other issue for mechanics is finding a shop to actually operate in. Many hangar businesses do not allow such maintanance due to either insurance or there is already a mechanic on the field that doesn't want competition.
Interesting topic. My two cents. If you pay them, they will come. I am a local trucker that holds a PPL and makes 28/hour. There is a new 147 opening close to my home that I'm interested in attending. After looking at what a local GA mechanic makes around here, I have to think alot harder about attending than I would if pay were $35 and up. I live in a relatively nexpensive part of the country and I'm just getting by on my current pay. Asking someone to go to school for years to enter a job that is physically demanding and has a lot of liability is alot to ask of someone who will barely get by for at least several years after graduating. 80k/year is nowhere near what it was 4 years ago.
Shops and owners don’t want to pay! I quit as an a/p years ago. I work on cement mixer’s, and make over four time the money!
Need 185/hr shop rate if you want to keep the wheel turning
if only the shop's hourly rate increases had an + effect on the A&P hourly wage... was paying $70/hr 3yrs ago; now $124; mechanic paid the same
the Mercedes dealership rate is $300 per hour. How much do these planes cost compared to Mercedes cars?
Depends on the plane, but typically significantly more
So I wanted to be an AMP back in the early 90’s but went to Automotive because it paid better. Now 30 years later I’m still a automotive technician for a high line dealership. Our shop rate is $210 per hour and I make about 40-42 per book hour-we are not flat rate. I take home on average about $100-120k a year, and with inflation as high as it is it’s still not enough I feel. I still think we should still make more because we buy our own tools and toolboxes, exposed to chemicals and technically we are plumbers, electricians, diagnostics techs, computer programmers, standing all day, lifting, bending, not to mention learning a new car every few years. But how can a small GA shop afford to pay its top guys 100k plus to draw in new mechanics and keep those they have now! It’s sad situation for the whole GA world.
Got me license back in 86/87. Never turned a single wrench for pay. Got all my pilot licenses. Flight instructed for years…same thing back then. My students working at McDonald’s made more than me. I didn’t leave aviation- aviation left me… I’m out and enjoy my life. And make money lol. I do get sad every once in a while but…life is easy now that I’m not responsible for someone getting hurt.
Shop rates need to be a lot higher is right. My car mechanic charges 115 an hour here in wv!
Exactly!
Owner Maintenance
28:16 FARs list 31 specific owner maintenance items.
29:00 Coleal Decision
1:06:28 Coleal Legal Interpretation by Skip Aberman, legal interpretations lawyer at FAA HQ,in 2009.
I'm an A&P for a lot of years. Now retired. Won't work on any body's airplane, because of being sued. My plane is experimental.
Stop the lawyers from trying to ruin others lives, and I'll start helping other owners.
Joe Schmoe was a perfect pilot. Must of been the mechanics fault. Hires lawyer.
Then they complain mechanics are charging more!
Always Great information but you must watch at 1.25 speed.
I'm an engineer at a large aerospace company. I started out as a helicopter mechanic many moons ago. I've had my A&P for more than 20 years. I figured it would be nice to get back into the toolbox. I've had a hard time finding a part-time gig because I don't have 2 years of general aviation experience. Go figure...
Insanity. I bet there are lots of good engineers in the same situation.
AGE DISCRIMINATION TOO
In 2000 I received my A&P. I was a carpenter and wanted to work on aircraft after retiring. I worked on a friends plane for a year or 2 and then nothing for 2 years. I went back to the college where I got my certificates and asked the instructor ( also the FAA examiner and asked if I could come back to school for a while to get current. He allowed me to work with him and other students to a point he said I could consider myself current. 2 years went by and the school would not let me come back to do it again as they did not have space available as they had STUDENT to take the spots available. I contacted the FAA and they said that I needed to work at a shop for 6 months before I could be current. I did not want to work for 6 months at a shop but I contacted one and he said he would meet with me. I waited at his shop for 1 hour and he never came. I just wanted to help people and was not looking for pay. I contacted the people at the police station as asked if I could volunteer my time to work with their mechanic and they never returned my request. I contacted the FAA again and was told that the main FAA person in Washington had a bill on his desk that would be approved anytime to solve my issue and to just wait. I contacted the person by email several times and was told the same thing over and over. Several months later I emailed him again and he said to stop bothering him and just go get a job!
I have heard that you are in touch with the FAA all the time. Several people that were in the classes I was in only work on their own aircraft when needed. The local FAA office says that to be current you need to work 6 months every 2 years full time. That's 1000 hours. If you work on your aircraft steady for 16 hours every weekend for 2 years, 52 week times 2 years times 16 hours equal, 1600 hours Plus. You know as well as I do that they do not work this many weekend that many hours to remain current but nobody says anything. I went to work on an EAA build for 1 year but the FAA says that this did not make me current. This was working 8 to 24 hours a week. Could you put something together with the FAA to make some kind of deal on how A&P's can remain and get current other then getting hired full time at a FBO. I am retired and only want to help people at the airport and friends with their planes and builds such as at the EAA or such. I even ask the FAA if I built a gyrocopter or a kit airplane, could I count those hours as hours toward the 6 months and was told NO. Could you address making things available to get current! I was also told by the FAA that the time spent trying to keep up on things like looking up AD's when you hear about them and or any book work finding out things( which were part of the training hours at school), cannot be use to keep you current after getting your certificates! Nothing is being done to help get mechanics current to work on aircraft for those that just like aircraft! Thanks for your time.
FAA says: "Manufacturing of any type of aircraft, including amateur-built experimental, does not count towards practical experience. However, practical experience gained on amateur-built aircraft after the aircraft has received an Airworthiness Certificate may count."
EAA’s Advocacy and Safety team is actively working with FAA to reverse this policy change to restore the time spent building an E-AB as acceptable experience. Until this change takes place, we would encourage you to track your building time as we are confident that we will get this policy changed.
I seriously disagree with not being able to count the time used for doing AD research, or any other "book work", if supervisory experience counts. As difficult as it is to run a small maintenance shop, and fight the supply chain to get correct parts, a solo mechanic can hardly spend 1000 hours turning wrenches and bucking rivets. Just contact as many A&P mechanics that you can find. It is very important to have others to ask questions of. This is the spirit of the law, as we can't do tasks we have not previously done with supervision. All of us have strengths that can be shared with others. If you buy a kit airplane that has an airworthiness certificate already, and needs work, you can do that, with supervision to get current. I personally do not feel that supervision needs to be real time, one on one. If you reach out as you finish a task or have questions, and the work is reviewed, how can one say there was no supervision? Are you in Florida? How can I help?
Boy oh boy sure wish you were close to EKO !
Been working on Airplanes off & on for 45 yrs, heck even took the written back in 79 -80 sure wish I'd logged time when I was working with & IA or A&P thru out the yrs 😢😢
@@bernardc2553 my wife does "supervision" for LCSW candidates. prior to licensing, they must have one year of supervision. Supervision consists of one hour, once a week, where casework is discussed, and the suggestions are made to improve the candidate's practice of social work. It's simply an organized system for mentoring.
In accordance with the FAA CFR's A&Ps mechanics certificate is held until surrendered, suspended, or revoked.. Once they have an A&P certificate they are good for life or surrendered, suspended, or revoked! IA's however do have currency standards to maintain. If your local FAA office is really telling you that BS ask them to show you the CFR's stating the currency requirement for an A&P mechanic. They might point to 14 CFR § 65.83 That CFR does not say 1000hrs as they may be telling you! There is no requirement in the CFR's requiring the A&P mechanic to log time worked on an aircraft or parts for currency status..
I would imagine going against a manual directed time limited part is not something an A&P would take upon themselves. It's maybe silly and a waste but it's in the manual or guidance we are supposed to follow. That's a manufacture gripe.
There was a public high school in Detroit that taught aviation maintenance. I attended in the late 80s. I'm not sure if it's still open today though.
It’s simple economics: when demand exceeds supply, prices go up. The demand for mechanics exceeds the supply of them, so their wages must increase. The hard part is the courage for a shop owner to increase their prices to attract and retain mechanics at their new price point.
Free Market Economy
I was hoping that Mike might chime in on my comments. When I ask questions during these webinars I have never gotten my questions or statements ever asked or even mentioned! For this reason I only watch the ones that really concern me and then comment only on the youtube videos comment area as at the least youtubers comment on the topic. Thank you to those that understand the seriousness of these issues and have commented and mentioned their issues that did not get addressed during the webinars.
we're sorry your questions are not getting posed to Mike on the webinar. Tim B. moderates the questions and Mike has no control over which ones are asked. We try to read and respond to questions on the TH-cam channel here, but its a lot of work and we don't always get to all the questions. Apologies! Savvy is a small company and we all work at our best pace to interface with other pilots and mechanics. -- Colleen Sterling, for Mike Busch
Got my A and P in 2000. Got layed off from an 11 dollar an hour job doing C and D checks after 9-11. Never thought about touching an airplane since then. Might jump back into it if there is more money.
Another thing an A&P might think about borrowing from medicine: the concierge model. A single A&P shop I know and have used extensively (who occasionally works with a helper for heavier work) charges a flat annual fee that guarantees access when needed. Including annuals. The fee makes it worth his while, his shop rates are not unreasonable and his work is immaculate. This is in hyperexpensive Northern California. So it might not require 5 mechanics wrenching in a shop to predict survival. as he is doing quite well as a solo operator.
Yep - Triage is another idea.. When I have Medical appointments sometimes I don't need to see an MD so I see a PA. or NP. Every job does not need to be performed by an IA or
A & P . Some less technical jobs could be performed by someone working under Shop Repairman's Certificate. This will also help keep down Shop rates instead of paying for an
A & P .
65.103 Repairman certificate: Privileges and limitations.
(a) A certificated repairman may perform or supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance, or alteration of aircraft or aircraft components appropriate to the job for which the repairman was employed and certificated, but only in connection with duties for the certificate holder by whom the repairman was employed and recommended.
(b) A certificated repairman may not perform or supervise duties under the repairman certificate unless the repairman understands the current instructions of the certificate holder by whom the repairman is employed and the manufacturer's instructions for continued airworthiness relating to the specific operations concerned.
(c) This section does not apply to the holder of a repairman certificate (light-sport aircraft) while that repairman is performing work under that certificate.
A&P's have been treated poorly and paid poorly by most GA setups and have just had enough
How long have these GA mechanics been crying about lousy wages ?
Then throw into the mix the LIABILITY - NO THANKS
IF they were smart they'd open an automotive shop, they'd make a lot more money and could sleep at night NOT worrying about something they worked on yesterday
NO shortage of parts and relatively little liability
THIS!... except for there is a shortage of quality parts imho.
If we were smart, we never would have been in a situation where the aviation bug had even the slightest chance of biting
Have there been any proposals to allow A&P mechanics to perform Annual inspections? Especially on fixed gear GA aircraft?
The FAA can do more to help the situation. They need to make it easier for a A&Ps that are not currently working in the field to become current. Some of us who are retired are not necessarily concerned about working full-time. I can't be the only person that would be willing to work for friends or the EAA without payment just for the enjoyment.
A&Ps that are not currently working in the field can start right back up any time they want too...In accordance with the FAA CFR's A&Ps do not maintain a documented currency. Once they have an A&P certificate they are good for life or until surrendered, suspended, or revoked! IA's however do have currency standards to maintain. 14 CFR § 65.83 does not state anything requiring the A&P mechanic to log time worked, on an aircraft, or aircraft parts for the purpose of currency status.
@@brianyoungblood4638you do have to maintain currency to sign off on work even if you don't have to maintain currency to perform it. The regs say 6 out of the past 24 months is what is required to stay current.
I was thinking that maybe owner assisted maintenance might help with this problem. A single A&P could be assisting several owners, so long as the shop has the space. If/when I own a plane I'm going experimental in part so I can do my own maintenance.
I assure you most A&Ps will NOT want to deal with wrangling a cantankerous owner who either doesn't want to do it or does it very wrong and insists it's right. I wouldn't do it and I don't even have my cert yet.
I have read many comments on this thread and posted a few myself.
Complaining about how things are will not fix them. Exercise some self help. Go get an A & P and be part of the solution. If nothing else just for doing the maintenance on your own aircraft. There are many great FAA Authorized A & P Schools around the USA and many of them offer night classes.
There is definitely a shortage of A & P s and it will become larger in the the future. Sitting around and waiting for something to change or the FAA to change is nothing but an exercise in futility. It will not solve this problem.
I got out of the military and got my A&P and even my Avionics FAA certifications, I do not work in aircraft maintenance for one simple reason. Aircraft mechanics, at least the ones I interacted with, are absolutely terrible to work with and be around. They sucked, hands down. I'm talking refusal to train or teach anything, legitimately got told that dude wasn't even going to bother learning my name till I'd been there a year. I think more of myself than to deal with that garbage. The shortage is partially about old hats that cannot let go of their ego for five seconds. I loved working on planes, it was a good time and an interesting job but if the people in the industry now aren't going to accept new people in then new people will find something else to do. The knowledge transfers HIGHLY.
Was it GA? I have never turn wrenches in airlines other than on call maintenance , but I do get the sense of the union hierarchy/older mechs having that sense of superiority regarding the training and such.
THAT sounds like the usual EAA CHAPTER, a PRIVATE CLUB full of arrogant az-holes who think they are in a GOOD OLD BOY CLUB. They can keep it
I went to school for maintenance, and 2 things held me back from ever starting my career with an apprenticeship......I didn't 'know anybody', and the rates some shops offered me were not acceptable. I even had a PPL and I entirely gave up on aviation
Me too, same except I got everything but my atp! I couldn’t take the pay any longer ( back on the 90’s) when commuter airlines were making you pay for your job! 15grand to pay for your own training. It’s bullshit. I slowly and quietly dropped out. Made a shit ton in real estate.
as a A&P, even the large shops pay poorly - however this DOES vary wildly from region to region
The answer is somewhat divided.
G,day Mike from Sydney Australia. Firstly long time listener, first time commenting. The airlines have the money to make employment with them so 'dang' attractive. So "lift the bar" by making aerospace engineering examinations a higher achievement level, which would possibly improve industry safety standards, then filter for a better term, the rest to the general aviation industry with its various pathways to reach part 43 compliance.
Always looking forward to hearing your podcasts.
🌏🇭🇲
Is a part solution “owner maintenance” like Canada has? Here in Australia, it is almost impossible for a keen young person to become a mechanic, plus they can earn more doing anything else. We don’t have colleges where you can go do a full time course. Shops are too small or too busy or both, to take on an apprentice. Major city airports have sold or leased their land to shopping malls, leaving no space to set up a new shop!
I've long thought that a repairman's certificate for Normal and Utility category airplanes similar to the repairman's certificate for LSAs would go a long way to help this problem. It could be limited to only airplanes that you own but would allow you to do everything short of major repairs or overhauls.
I find it funny that on the pilot side of things I could casually work up hours in my spare time flying my airplane to get an ATP certificate, but to do anything beyond preventative maintenance on the airplane I'd have to quit my day job and go back to school full time for 2 years.
Excellent content but very difficult to listen to due to the tempo(way too slow). Speed it up to 1.5x playback (in the settings) and it’s excellent.
Maybe replying to applicants sooner than 3 months after they submit an application would help. The helicopter operation I work for called me 5 hours after my application was submitted, and I interviewed the next day. Job offer made 2 days later with a salary that was 20k more than the GA shop down the street was at. However, I want to do some GA work part time during the 2 weeks off I get every month and seems like no shops are interested in working with that.
IF we followed the rules for A&P certs, the problem would be even bigger... They are supposed to keep a logbook and are technically required to have been instructed/supervised by another A&P for ANY work they do. For example, they cant go replacing a Mooney aileron unless they have replaced a Mooney aileron while under the supervision of another A&P who has done that procedure and signed their logbook. How many times has your A&P said " I've never done that before " ?
What are labor rates in different locations of the USA? Metropolitan vs non metropolitan.
I wanted to become an A&P. My local community college launched an 18-month program, but because it was not accredited I was not eligible for student loans or financial aid. I cannot afford to go to school 40 hours per week and pay my bills in California.
I like the idea of a maintenance club, the big problem with it is would they be willing to pay appropriately? I would bet good money that they wouldn't.
As an A&P, Army UH-60 helicopter Crew Chief, Commercial Pilot, CFI, Test Pilot, I didn't make sh"t. I went back to my family's business and maintain my own aircraft.
Back in the 70s , when I was young, I performed maintenance on a Lake A/C Work was perfect but he put me off on paying me .He drove an old wore out Buick to the airport . I went to his house, beach lot in F,l and there were two M/B in the garage and the Buick outside . He finally paid. Copper wire was invented by two pilots fighting over a penny ! Just remember all aviation costs are fixed, EXCEPT MECHANICS PAY ! Bunch of cheap people in the aviation industry . JMHO !
Copper wire was invented by two pilots fighting over a penny ! - Thanks for the laugh!
We took shop class out of high school. We give kids tablets and video games as soon as they can hold them, so there is no tinkering with bikes or go-carts. A 4 year degree is promoted as the only path to prosperity. All trades have suffered because of this.
The only jobs worth the trouble are with a major airline. Everything else is unstable or doesn't pay well.
Pay and lack of shops accepting people that are still in school or just graduated seems to be an issue too. My father in-law has owns and operates a maintenance business and even he's said companies just aren't taking people right out of school. So seems to me the issue is within the industry itself and not a lack of A&P mechanics hopefuls. As a prior AF aircraft structural maintenance I would have been in the industry but I'm not going to blow my GI Bill on an industry that won't hire me when I finish school.
The Airlines are looking for people with good Structure Experience at their Overhaul Bases. Our Structure AMT's are presently doing B737 NG Pickle Fork replacements which is a major structure job. I can tell you personally that the mass exodus of Pilot and Mechanic retirements has already started and they will have to lower their experience requirements due to market conditions. I work for a major airline that will hire people right out of school if they can pass a basic mechanic skills test AND a DOT DRUG TEST. The number of applicants failing the DOT DRUG TEST is staggering. Some of the Applicants right out of school are failing the basic skills test such as demonstrating proper safety wire procedures. Not sure what schools they came from.
A tenured Airline AMT can easily earn $120K per year plus benefits. I would apply at EVERY MAJOR AIRLINE and UPS or Fed Ex..
I used my GI Bill for my A & P and was a very good decision for me. [different time- different era]
28:14 I DREAM of doing more of my own maintenance, problem is the FAA strictly forbids it. and mechanics refuse to do supervised maintenance a lot of the time (let you do all of the work, and just inspect your work as needed before buttoning things up).
Preventative maintenance covers almost NOTHING that i need to do. none of my preventative things need done very often. but I have actual things that should be fixed or cleaned up, and those are "preventative" even though that's Exactly what it really is.
Exercise some self help. Go get an A & P.
What do you need done ?
@@daman737 any maintenance within my abilities. Such as making a new instrument panel to clan up the hack jobs left by A&P.
@@guitarhillbilly1482 getting an A&P, is exactly the issue. what is helped by getting an A&P? most of them don't want to help without charging more than the airplane is worth, when I could do it myself for less than $100.
I work for a part 145 repair station working only on corporate business jets. There’s no money in GA and it’s not worth the hassle. Got my IA 2 years ago just for the purpose of doing my own annuals. Experimental Aviation is the way to go these days. Better technology/parts are easily accessible/easily to work on/you can do your own conditional inspection. The Certified GA world is dying.Unless you’re an A&P IA,I would stay away from certificated ACFT.
I know of a hard working 50 something A+P/DOM having health issues. He's trying, but the job is too physical. Retirement is coming. And, he's not the only one. There are a good number of guys well into their late 60's or early 70's still turning wrenches. How long will they continue? 2, 3 years at most? They understand their enjoyment of retired life is shortened by working, eventually, no amount of money will keep them on. Off they go too.
It's a problem with many causes and plenty of blame to pass around.
One minor solution might be to encourage LSA Repairman certificates. There may only be one "FAA-approved" school - Rainbow Aviation, in Missouri. Graduates of a three-week intensive program are allowed to do Annuals and certain minor maintenance on LSA Aircraft. There is even provision for LSA Repairmen Certificate holders to become A&Ps with sufficient experience.
The ONLY reason im pursuing my IA is because i recently bought a C150. I have absolutely no desire to work GA. Pay needs to double or triple to be competitve. Especially if you want a mechanic to move to BFE.
I worked helicopters for years, but I decided i needed to retire. I sold my soul and went to work civil service at Edwards AFB, sat on my butt for 10 years, made twice the money, and have a good retirement. now that I'm retired i wouldn't mind getting a partime job working G.A. to keep busy.
Shop rates should be $200/hr.
UAL is offering a $75K bonus at SFO, not $5K. Also, airlines hiring “ off street” right out of A&P school with ZERO experience. Remember, after 9/11 and all the bankruptcy and mergers, there was no mechanic hiring for almost 10 years, the “lost decade”. Most A&P schools dried up during that time
At SFO the $75K would barely cover 12 months rent for housing within a few hours drive from SFO.
GA has themselves to blame. Too many Decades of low pay and benefits for A & P 's . This forced many A & P 's to the airlines for much better wages and benefits. I'm one of those who left GA for this reason. I love GA and AG Aviation. The problem for GA is going to get a lot worse because Airlines are losing HUGE Numbers of A & P's to RETIREMENTS. GA will be competing with the Airlines for fewer A & P applicants on the open market. A Tenured mechanic at a major airline is currently earning about $60.00 / HR in wages. ADD Matching 401ks - Health Insurance - Flight Benefits and the total compensation package is about $90 - $100 / HR.
How does GA compete with that?
I'm an airline mechanic and I already grossed $60K for the year without killing myself with a ton of overtime, in December 2021 when my A&P school had a career fair everyone mobbed the airline tables and the few GA shops were almost deserted.
FAA is squarely to blame. GA pilots did nothing to cause this.
@@SoloRenegade The very same Aircraft Owners that complain about Aircraft Maintenance Shop rates think nothing of taking their Lexus to the dealership and pay $130-$150 / HR Shop rate. Big Disconnect.
Most A & P's will choose the Airlines over GA due to economics.
@@SoloRenegadehe was talking the GA industry, yes owners do play a part.
@@TheReadBaron91 owners react to the circumstance they are given. owners do not set part prices, FAA regulations, etc.
give me a specific example of where owners are responsible for the mess we're in.
What is an A&P? What is an IA?
I've been considering getting my A&P so this sounds like a perfect time to get involved. In your opinion what would be the best route to take to getting certified, going to an actual school for A&P or going to work for a shop to get the practical experience?
From Chuck FAA A&P. 70 years. A&P requires civilian school of 12 to 14 months. If youare mechical inclined, cars etc, its's possible. Aircraft have 12 complex systems to learn, and many types of aircraft are different, you must have the knowledge to work on. And the work manuals to aid repair the aircraft and engine. My aircraft school is military air force, 30 years, and General aircraft, 70 years and still, learning. In my words, even certificated, all aircraft problems are not the same. Advise, some A&P to get the mechanics story. Repair and airworthy an aircraft is on the mechanic sign off, so you better make sure the job is " the repair is as original design " Pay, well, should be with auto mechanic, but it's not. Hope I partly scared you. C F.
Galen, I will tell you now. Aviation as a whole is absolutely booming. It is the perfect opportunity to get into the industry as a pilot and a mechanic. I'm currently trying to do both. I recently passed my A&P General written exam, and im going for my airframe license, and I'll be starting to work at my flight school as an apprentice. I will warn you though, some general aviation shops are very short handed. The last place I worked at was a family owned business, who had 4 A&Ps and 2 A&P IA's. But the shop lost 3 out of the 4 A&Ps because of maintenance facilities with higher wages. Leaving me and one A&P to do ALL the work. We hung out in that situation for about two months. So when people talk about the mechanic shortage, it. Is. REAL. But as a mechanic first coming into the A&P world, a GA shop is a great place to start. You'll work on a variety of aircraft from a Cessna 150, to a Cessna Citation CJ2.
And as for the schooling, there are two routes. One is going to a trade school for 18 months and test for your airframe and powerplant. Or you can work at an a maintenance hangar as an apprentice for 30 months, and test for your A&P.
@@noblegoldheart8508 Thank you for your information much appreciated.
Don't it's a time sink with low pay and shit benefits even at the airline level. . If you love being treated like trash with 60 plus hour weeks , divorces ( most a&ps have multiple) and dying broke be my guest . But what do I know I've only been in aviation for 37 yrs professionally.
Been in Aviation for 50 years at several different levels. A lot of the actual wrench turning is not difficult if you have any mechanical abilities. The MAJOR part of an A & P job requires excellent reading comprehension because that will be a very big part of your job. Aircraft Maintenance Manuals - Engine Manuals - Service Bulletins - AD's - Engineering Drawings- TI's - and list goes on.
Some AD's almost take a Law Degree to correctly interpret.
There are some very good Aviation Maintenance Schools around the U.S.
That's my take on your question.
The A&P certification process is outdated and an obstacle. General Aviation continues to shrink, Experimental market is the ONLY avenue of growth. The A&P certification process is another nail in the coffin.
yup. I've been advocating breaking A&P into its constituent areas, and make getting those mere weeks.
Sheet metal
Fabric
Wood
Welding
Piston Engines
Avionics
Composites
Turbines/Jet engines
etc.
make it so people can learn only what they need to know, and make it easier to get the cert. I can't quit my job in engineering to get 2yrs of experience just so I can do it on the side.
@@SoloRenegade Don't have to quit your job. Many of us A & P's worked full time day jobs and went to full time night classes for 18 months at an FAA Authorized School. In fact the GI Bill paid for my A & P License.
The A & P License is only an obstacle for people that allow it to be. If there is a will there is a way.
@@guitarhillbilly1482 yeah, I did night class for the past 7 years, plus many years of college prior to that, 14 FAA certificates prior to that, plus multiple years n combat before that, plus serving in the Army while still in High School before that.
no thanks. I have multiple degrees in engineering, and that more than qualifies me to work on airplanes. All it should take for me is to take some training on regulations, and stuff like that. And I have no interest in working on jet engines, avionics, and stuff like that. I just want to be able to work on things related to my airplane like sheet metal, piston engines, etc. If I can design them, build them, work on them, then I can do maintenance on them.
Also, there is NO A&P training within hours of where I live.....
@@SoloRenegade At most major airlines the AMT is paid more than an engineer. Especially entry level engineers.
Quote: "I have multiple degrees in engineering, and that more than qualifies me to work on airplanes."
Only in your mind. Not according to the FAA or the major Airlines.
In fact many Maintenance Engineering positions at Major Airlines NOW require both the Degree and the License.
What's over maintaining? Do you have Examples.? Ounce of prevention is 1 lb of cure. Not sure where u seeing that????
Have you never seen his stuff before? Do as little maintenance as possible.
He mentioned TBO for auxiliary parts like alternators and to instead run parts until failure…on the upwind over a populated area😐. GA fleet is just too old and technologically outdated requiring massive redundancies and high maintenance costs and cycles. Hybrid and Electric powertrains are unfortunately not available yet.
@@jonasbaine3538 ok. Yeah. I wrote this before end. Not sure there are lots of this... over maintaining. This has to do with litigation in US. This will not change ever
Well I am an A&P IA.... Looking for work. In Florida area.
Owning an experimental alleviates some of the reliance on mechanic shops right? Also sounds like being in a club is better than solo ownership because you will be a higher priority customer when needing maintenance.
We have a local club. They seem to demand instant response to their needs versus waiting in line.
The current shortage of airplane mechanics, especially apparent within legacy airlines operating in locations like San Francisco, is a pressing issue that's being addressed with stop-gap measures, such as offering signing bonuses of up to $75k to attract those with an A&P Certificate. However, this approach is yielding a cohort of mechanics who are fast-tracked through training with little experience, resulting in individuals being 777 release qualified within just a year. This can be perceived as a byproduct of the industry's struggle to resonate with younger generations like Gen Z and Alpha Gen, often because the trade is viewed as outdated and unappealing. The underrepresentation of mechanics' interests, evidenced by the fact that our certificates seem stuck in the 60s and there are few advocates within influential organizations like the FAA, only exacerbates the problem. The mechanic's role, crucial but often unseen, stands in stark contrast to the glorified image of pilots, reinforcing an unfortunate analogy where pilots are the rock stars and mechanics the roadies. This status quo needs to change if we hope to make this critical profession attractive to future generations and maintain the safety and efficiency standards of the aviation industry.
Mechanics spend more time with aircraft than pilots. Pilots just borrow the plane.
I think the medical boutique model is some blend of PREMIUM PRICED RETAIL SERVICE and INSURANCE (pooled risk). Totally different businesses and tough to bundle IMHO.
I'm not sure how these doctors get higher rates (superior reputation, guaranteed short wait times, etc.). Will that model will prove sustainable as the presumably young client base ages, fat tail events inevitably hit, the reality of 30%+ long-term annual inflation rate of US medical costs, etc.?
Pooled risk is a really tough game. Insurance companies have armies of actuaries and state regulators but some still fail (e.g. AIG). Casinos run big statistics, with a favourable bias built in, so maybe that is an outlier. Airlines can do this with large data sets, huge fixed costs to burn, and decent customer segregation. Many banks have failed in the statistics game.
More relevant example. 20-years ago, a lot of mom & pop home heating oil companies offered guaranteed (or pre-paid) pricing for fuel oil. That was a profitable business for several years, particularly for the companies not paying for "insurance" to underwrite these contracts (I think wall street was the ultimate originator of the insurance). Until prices spiked and total chaos ensued.
Small airplane maintenance shops will need some reason to justify premium prices. And they will have a difficult time making good actuarial estimates (need lots of good historic data, lots of clients, lots of capital, a good margin of error, etc.).
There are insurers in the "automobile maintenance" world. Auto makers, with new car factory warranties, say for x years or y miles. Third-party insurers also exist for new and used cars. I don't think either are "consumer favourites". Auto warranties are an ugly place for consumers IMHO.
I also fear MORAL HAZARD with the boutique maintenance model. That is, troublesome airplanes will migrate to your shop. Non-problematic new planes will migrate to the traditional hourly rate shops. Fleets will have the resources and data to game the system.
I also think most retailers & service providers should be making money from every single customer (maybe profitability is measured by customer over a few years). But I can't see any reason to keep big clients that lose money every single year. There could be a handful of small exceptions, such as a favourite charity, some famous local pilot that provides marketing or reputational points (the big client that covers overhead is not convincing, particularly given the shortage of mechanics in GA).
Supermarkets have loss-leaders, such as produce and dairy. But that is a different case. Those foods bring in customers who stuff their baskets with profitable junk food. So "all" the supermarket customers are profitable.
Sorry for the stream of consciousness ramble but this is a fascinating topic, minefield. Great video, as always.
changed fields in the last year to IT from AC/Mech not even surprised to hear this, pay them more, more benefits, and people will stay go figure.
Cost benefit analysis. If you underpay technicians, across the industry, you will push talent to seek living wages (or just appropriate wages for their level of expertise) elsewhere.
Can I install 2 chrome cylinders with 4 steel ones on IO-520? Or all of them have to be steel cylinders?
Free Market Economics at its best.
the 2009 Coleal letter still requires a petition be filed to expand Preventative Maintnance tasks...
this is FAR too burdensome an expectation just to maintain airplanes in basic safe working condition.
We need some relief... Older certified aircraft need to be the same rules as experimental. No reason that should not be the case... maybe a "classic" airworthiness certificate or something. Also, are shops currently allowing or facilitating Owner assisted annuals? If I could go to the shop and do the piddly work to help get er done and save myself some $ I would.
Some individual IA's will allow the owner to open non structural access panels and interior access to save time which equals dollars. Most Shops probably have Liability Insurance Restrictions on allowing non-employees performing work in the Shop.
I do agree that some GA airplanes that are NOT used for Hire could have some less restrictive maintenance requirements concerning who performs the maintenance.
The "deferred maintenance " that you predict will happen...I agree, it will. Making the GA mechanic's job even worse, and more fraught with liability. I tried to have a love for this for almost 30 years, and am fairly done with it, working only occasionally for friends. Annuals...maybe never again. To owners who want those while skimping on repairs:
Think of it this way- you are comfortable asking for some things to be overlooked? That isn't legal, and you'd like me to take the risk? So that you can fly around with my name in the logs?
If you feel the need for something sketchy to happen so that you may fly, then take the risk yourself. Fly without it, play dumb if you get caught, rather than expecting me to take the risk. Still sound like a good idea? I didn't think so.
I've been a little slow realizing that the pay, benefits, liability, and working conditions are not very good, and not improving. Friends still doing it say the same thing, and feel stuck. We also have discouraged our children from the field.
I am slightly embarrassed by my negativity, after reading over this, but it is simply true. Non aviation friends have commented "you must really love it"...haha.
The solution- better pay, benefits, conditions, etc. are so obvious, but so difficult to achieve. A shop that just decides to fix those problems would likely put itself out of business. I don't know the answer, other than very slow incremental changes that might take decades.
There will be some turmoil between now and then.
I applied for my repairman certificate in Jan 2023 and still haven't heard back let alone got it. I've heard similar horror stories to renew IA and A&P. I think the best course of action is to abolish the FAA. Anyone who writes "sentences" like they do in the FAR AIM should be tarred and feathered imo.
The vast majority of general aviation aircraft are old technology..i love it. However most rural shops are manned by 60 year old men. Its a tough job and airlines and high tech jobs pay more and are more attractive. Rural airports are dying...economically. its a downward spiral..as costs get higher and margins are squeezed. Most rural airports are county owned and state owned funded by taxes. Not so with A&P shops.
From what I see in my 18 years of maintenance & engineering in GA and airlines, the new crop of young A&Ps are not motivated and lack critical thinking skills. They are only motivated by $. A&P schools are easier and easier to complete. Many schools want the government dollars and don’t care if the students actually learn.
People are getting paid 2-3+ times as much in non GA. Why would I work in GA for much less…?
Two things. There is a quiescent base level for all aircraft owners. Insurance, fuel, and storage, now add in the cost of parts. Everyone knows that a 12v light bulb stamped with a PMA is a lot more expensive for very little reason. Same with avionics. Tell me that a certified Garmin box is different than a non-certified. Does anyone think Garmin makes two different G3X boxes? This quiescent level puts pressure on A&P mechanics and shops driving down what people can and in some instances want to pay. Secondly, mechanics are like many blue collar works. They are expecting really high pay for relatively unskilled labor. Yes, they get training but I’ve taught mechanics and many, not all, don’t have critical thinking skills. They may learn it after a decade of work but in the interim they often waste a lot of time chasing their tail. Replacing the wrong parts, getting lost in the problem. They have friends who work in other hands on jobs getting ridiculous amounts of money. This is a society problem. I live in an area where a garage door repairman can charge $400 to put a cable back on the wheel. 30 min job equates to $800 per hour. A similar problem exists where workers think they should make a living off every job. Pool maintenance people in the New England area charge twice as much as in florida. Why, because they say they only get half a season. Not all jobs can supply enough money to make a living. It’s a reality of life that has been corrupted by our society. I’m not picking on mechanics. A fedex piloting can make 350,000 per year for flying boxes. That is just as wrong. Most pilots love flying and would do it for free on someone else’s gas. You made a lot of great points. Why can’t the faa modernize owner maintenance like they did to fix basic medical. I don’t see how an owner who put 10,000 rivets in an experimental knows much more about his plane than an owner who has really dug into his planes over 20 years. Why doesn’t the faa expand the owner list of things they can do. The faa could apply the helmet law philosophy. The government spent years forcing people to wear helmets until someone figured out, it’s your head. Admittedly, a plane falling out of the sky on to someone is a possibility but do you hear about that. There was a similar analysis on people getting sick while flying and falling out of the sky. It was rare. The fact you mention so many planes have been purchased with lots of worked need ignores the fact the previous owner was flying that plane. You are right, needs fixing, but all angles should be addressed. Mechanics, owners, and the faa.
the wages are super low, and the liability is high.
Would 120k 1099 pay be good for an A&P AI ?
Depends where you live at.
@@guitarhillbilly1482 Exactly, I tell guys all the time if the owner has the money to buy a $3-$5 Million dollar aircraft they have the money to keep it maintained.
If not, then they have a $3-$5 Million paperweight.
I replied this to another comment, but I think it’s worth posting here as well.
Same exact problem in the automotive industry. They think all techs are identical and interchangeable, and treat us like we’re uneducated dimwits. Then they wonder why they can’t retain techs. Same shit, different toilet.
The problem is that the trades get demonized and anyone who doesn’t go to university and get a 4 year degree is seen as worthless and undeserving of consideration. Then they need us to maintain all their fancy shit, and wonder why we have an attitude about being told how worthless we are while simultaneously demanding that we serve them with a smile.
They can all get F’ed. I have turned my last wrench for customers.
Why can’t they have training to be a GA mechanic. I have no interest in large jets. But have to be trained on jets.
WHY is it - you can freely maintain and repair your car, your motorcycle, your boat, but not your airplane? I just don't understand what's the big deal. If you botch your brake job on your car, that has serious implications, you could kill people too. I'm sure there are numb-nuts worldwide maintaining their own cars and they shouldn't be left alone with as much as a pencil sharpener. Fundamentally, why is private airplane maintenance holier than thou?
Greater repercussions
Because you absolutely can not pull over on the side of the sky when your airplane breaks down.
If the shop rates increase then I expect the quality of the labor to increase with it. I have tried 3 different A&P's with IA privileges in the area and their work has been subpar compared to what I can do myself. I had one guy spent 8 and a 1/2 hours troubleshooting a bad connection to a switch. I could have bought 8 brand new switches for that. I had another guy "Fix" my exzaust leak by installing new gaskets but used the old coroded hardware. A few hours after that fix one of the studs backed out and another 1 broke in flight. I shouldn't be the one doing better work on my airplane than someone with. IA privileges it's ridiculous. I shouldn't have to be schooling these people on how to do something properly and by the book.
Go get your A & P and do it yourself. Its not that difficult. Problem solved.
@guitar hillbilly unfortunately I have a more than full-time job, so I can not dedicate the hours needed to achieve it in a reasonable amount of time. But more my point the quality of A&Ps seems to be low and needs to be resolved. A lot of wasted man hours on jobs because of lack of proficiency and understanding.
@@shadowsrwolf You are correct that the Mechanic should have used new Bolts/ Studs when replacing the exhaust gaskets. The issue is that some owners would complain about the extra cost of the hardware and ask why did you not Re-use the existing Hardware? The IA should have contacted you or told you up front about the cost of new hardware or included it in his Bid.
Unfortunately you have to deal with the lack of situational awareness in the A & P ranks just like the pilot ranks.
In the Airline Maintenance business the labor costs and parts cost for repair are weighed against the replacement cost of a unit / assembly.
Sometimes a Vendor will screw the Airline on parts prices and make the parts more expensive to purchase for repair than buying a NEW Replacement Assembly.
Hope you have nothing but clear skies ahead.
@@guitarhillbilly1482 oooo even better I procured the parts for that repair and assumed he used all the new parts.... they were all together with the new gaskets
@@shadowsrwolf 👍
When your ground support equipment personnel make as much if not more than an A&P without the schooling what do you expect... A GSE tech mid grade can make $32 per hour. (Prime Flight Aviation Services). Coming from automotive, Automotive engines are highly computerized, GA powerplant technology is comparable to lawnmower engines. Problem is kids don't want to get there hands dirty, hot and sweaty... It's the same problem in automotive. You are going to have to grow your own...High schools use to have automotive programs, High schools don't have the funds anymore. Self funded apprenticeship programs, you want to survive you are going to have to invest in training your own personnel. I have been working on cars/trucks/heavy equipment for 25+ years and have held ASE's the entire time, Master technician 15 years , If I wanted to go aviation now I would start at ground ZERO. Maybe getting credit toward A&P with knowledge testing, might get converts. Everyone has cars/trucks, not everyone has a aircraft.
Tort reform, and eased regulations to allow owner maintenance