3:00 - Ecopak fabrics are not made from 100% recycled materials. Most of their fabrics have 100% recycled polyester parts, this excludes coatings and backings. And also this is not the case for the Ultra-line fabrics you are talking about, they contain new nad recycled components. There is a really good PDF on the Ecopak website explaining this. :)
You're right. I'll pin this comment. 200d Ultra PE is woven and laminated to recycled, waterproof RUV film. At just 3.5oz/sqyd, it far exceeds the technical properties of any similar weight fabric available on Planet Earth! static1.squarespace.com/static/5f2c5f37aa44b046dd7f18fd/t/60ff24446b69487938a36477/1627333700961/2021_EcoPak-Guide_v9_Web.pdf
Hey all this is a collection of information taken from all over the place. Most sources are in the video description, but if I got anything wrong, please let me know and I'll update this pinned comment.
It's definitely heavier than DCF but apparently more durable . Don't have a time frame for tests but backpacks of ultra 200 I expect to last for 2 thru hikes instead of being tattered after 1. Thats the only way to justify the weight over DCF
I ordered a Unaweep 4800 from Seek Outside a few weeks ago made in Ultra 400 not even realizing it was a new material so now I'm really excited to get it and try it out. Thanks for the info.
I've got a couple packs from Waymark that use ecopak, and that stuff is awesome. It's also 100% recycled. It's great to see these companies caring more about the impact of the fabrics they're using. I'm really itching to get my hands on some of the ultra fabric.
Grumpy old man here. If you want something bomber, don't forget about good old Cordura. I have a Cordura climbing pack I bought in the 1970s - I've used it for thousands of days and it's still going strong. I sit on it, I've hauled it up rock pitches, I've thrown it into the holds of planes, I've bushwhacked through thickets... Indestructible. Any of these fancy composite thingies would have been in the landfill decades ago. Is it a touch heavier? Sure. Is it waterproof? Not very. But I use a liner and the extra weight is pretty insignificant in real life. And compared to the composites, it's cheap and has a much nicer hand. If you're looking for value and durability, you don't always need the latest shiny thing!
Was just about to purchase a Lite AF for next season! This was a helpful video! Didn’t know they had switched over! Makes it more exciting to get a new pack! Thanks for the vid!
I was able to get my curve 46l in the Ultra 200!! Done a few hikes with it and I'm beyond pleased with it! and the material def is a game changer, in that it has much better abrasion resistance! I love it! Thanks for the videos Frozen! keep em comin'!
Pretty much everyone except Zpacks I believe is starting or already using it. It will be a while before we see some long term testing but there are already people on thru hikes at the 1000+ mile mark with ultra 200 packs.
@@FrozensAdventures my 200 ecopak is already showing ware. Not so much that it has threatened the integrity of the pack, but still noticable when compared to my 200/100 Robic Nylon pack.
I picked up a Fast Track Pack in Ultra200 and it’s fantastic. Unlike most of the DCF offerings it’s actually soft to the touch when rolling the top down, is far less noisy (when rolling the top down) than HMG’s DCF packs in cold weather too. Also comes seam sealed like DCF. Enjoying it so far.
Thanks for the video. Seems like Ultra doesn't fully hold up. Multiple reports about bad delamination. It should be way more but I assume most people don't thru hike with them. Last year on the PCT I saw two Ultra packs only as it was so new. The people reporting delam are people who hike extensively, too. Also I think Challenge did adjust the fabric already or offer different fabric now. I've gotten back to Gridstop and holding off the Ultra.
Just ordered a Curve 30 in ultra 200 and excited to see it perform. I have read and seen photos of this material delaminating in early Palante Desert Packs. Some theories are that it needs to be seam taped to prevent delam from where it is stitched. Now that it’s widely available, we’ll know soon enough.
It's great to hear about new and cheaper materials! I'm a firm believer in the Vxo7! MANY Miles on my Superior Wilderness Designs pack! Can't wait to see how this holds up, and I love that it's made from recycled materials!
great video and fabric my review will be 100% real world 600 mile thru hike review bushwhacking/ blowdowns / 5.5 days of all day after day rain / everything you get on the less travelled trails once I’m done with the BMT
Ultra 200 is definitely on my shortlist for my next pack material. Can’t wait until it gets a little more time to be field tested to see if it will hold up as well as I want it too.
Yea, I was checking out the SWD Rugged Long Haul 50. It's made out "bombproof" Ultra400, weighs about 2 lb fully tricked out and can handle up 50 lbs in a pinch. I'm anxious to see if they start making tarps out of it. So far, the color options seem pretty limited.
So the UV vulnerability is a concern when canoe-tripping with packs laying in the canoe in the sun for hours a day. ...maybe they can work on the UV thing.
@@FrozensAdventures yeah definitely, excited to how it’s performed after it’s been out on a few long trails. Am sure they’ll be a few packs used next year for some proper real world testing.
I asked Dan Durston whether he would use Ultra 200 for his future pro tents. He told me that while Ultra is awesome for backpacks like his Kakwa, it's too heavy to be used in a tent as a tent needs way more fabric.
I have not but that's not to say that they can't I do think that the material needs to enolve into something like an 100 denier fabric. Right now we are at 200 denier with Ultra 200. Ultra 400 is roughly 400 denier and so on.
Very interesting I have a onesie that is made out of recycled plastic bottles from the Norwegian military which allows me to get down to extremely low and I do mean extremely low temperatures so far I've been into -67° below with them As of waterproofing well they kind of absorb that a little bit a lot of water I have no idea but it's generally just a sweat that gets soaked in and then evaporated out rather quick Matter of fact I believe the name is called The Nookie Iceman
Hi Jason, I just asked the same question to Devin, interested to see if you have had a play around with the EPX fabric? How does EXP compare to Xpac in terms of waterproofing, specifically EXP200 vs VX21?? Have you done any tests to compare?
@@FrozensAdventures The lightest ultra is 2,92oz/sqyd and DCF is 0.5oz/sqyd. That's not insignificant. I just don't see how you could make anything lighter using the ultra unless you are using far less of it.
My prediction is in the next couple years specific fabrics are developed to compete directly with the lowest fabric of DCF. That's all I'm saying also keep in mind it's not always about the weight it's about the door ability of the product I personally don't want a backpack to last for only one through hike I'd rather last for several years
I asked Dan Durston whether he would use Ultra 200 for his future pro tents. He told me that while Ultra is awesome for backpacks like his Kakwa, it's too heavy to be used in a tent as a tent needs way more fabric.
Seems like there are multiple types of Ecopak fabrics? Waymark advertising theirs just as ECOPAK while others advertising as Ultra 200, these are different right?
There's different ECOPAK fabrics. Ultra is the EPL version and I got it wrong (and pinned a comment to the top) EPL is made up of SOME recycled materials. Check out the pinned comment to learn more.
@@FrozensAdventures Does the fabric absorb water? I have a ULA Circuit and it hold water and its so heavy. So I start looking for something that absorb less water.Thanks :)
Very good video on this topic! I bought an SWD Superior Ultra 200 pack and should be in mid-Dec...high hopes to use this on the Pinhoti & AT next year. Would appreciate your opinion on sealing this pack. The SWD packs aren't seam sealed. Do you think you can use DCF tape to seal these or would it be better to use a seam sealer like "Seam Grip"? I plan to still use a pack liner and want to be cautious not to add too much unnecessary weight.
All, don't get your hopes up just yet. I contacted Zpacks to see if they would be making an Altaplex in the near future made of ULTRA 200, because all things being equal with regard to weight, who wouldn't want the added benefits of the ULTRA 200 material (tear strength and wear resistance) right? The Altaplex is made out of a much lighter DCF that is 0.55 oz/sqyd for the canopy and the floor is 1 oz/sqyd. Compare that to ULTRA 200 that is 3.5 oz/sqyd. According to Zpacks an Altaplex made from ULTRA 200 material would be 4 to 5 lbs!!! And the weight may be more. I did some research online that said ULTRA 200 is 5.9 oz/sqyd. For comparison, the Altaplex made from 0.55 oz/sqyd DCF and 1 oz/sqyd DCF is 15.4 oz. Equivalent tent constructed from ULTRA would be 4 to 5 lbs (according to Zpacks). Not exactly light! Like the rest of the hiking community, I am very excited to see a new material on the market. Hopefully in the future, they'll be able to engineer a lighter weight ULTRA / EcoPack material comparable to the lightweight DCF fabrics that can be used for shelters. Hope everyone finds this information useful.
The material itself is waterproof. It's where the seams are sewn where it becomes a problem. Typically these are taped to make the stitched areas waterproof or extremely water resistant as well. Personally I use a nylofume pack liner to keep all my important items dry even when submerged.
Ultra is definitely an interesting fabric. Having had some time with it to play around with the cutting and sewing of it, it’s got some challenges, but regardless it’s exciting to see something new that has good application to backpacks. Even the ECOPAK EPX fabrics are amazing and are a better option than XPac at this point.
Good to know Devin. I talked to Chris at LiteAF and he loves the stuff, actually convinced me to check it out for myself. Especially when the vendor is environmentally responsible and self sustaining.
Hello Jason, I've been following you for many years now and after the video of your first Cuben Tarp in 2016, I pulled the trigger on the same tarp. Recently I was changing out my continuous ridge line and noticed the fibric was comming apart at both ends of the tarp ridge. Now that I'm retired I can't see dishing out the money for another cuben tarp. Before I get a sil-poly replancement tarp, I'd like to know if you have heard of any cottage tarp produces that they will be using the Ultra 200 materials for tarps in the VERY near future? Thanks for any insight you can offer!
It's really coming apart? Mine is still going strong even after a thru hike. I've talked to Chris from LiteAF about the possibility of a tarp and just got a maybe. If it does happen I think we'll start seeing them pop up for late spring / early summer. This is my just guessing though.
@@FrozensAdventures I got the camo tarp as did several of my friends and they have had the same issue. I contact the manufacturer and they don't think its repairable, and suggested I over tightened the ridgeline. I maybe use the tarp 30-45 nights a year, but I guess it's back to Sil-poly until the Ultra 200 makes an appearance. So sad, I love the water resistance of the DCF. Thanks for your reply!
Not sure why you can't see it. It's a savings of $10 per yard over DCF. See below: ripstopbytheroll.com/products/2-92-oz-dyneema-composite-fabric-hybrid-ct5k-18-wov-32c?variant=1312431177754 ripstopbytheroll.com/products/challenge-ultra-200?variant=41964645351594
Are these fabrics, EcoPak, can also be made in China? The U.S. is too far away from us and sourcing from America is out question. It will double the price If sourced from the U.S. Another thing, In China I believe, they also recycled PP bottles for fabric correct me if I'm wrong.
Anyone take the time to see how much energy it takes to turn recyclables into useful material? It may not be as good for the environment as people might think. I prefer dyneema composite fabric. And no, it can’t be beat in the waterproof category.
Chris Just got a vx210 pack from six moons design It looks pretty good and should hold up I will see how it does on the AT this spring Thx for great articles Da Breeze
How do we knows this is NOT just another shallow marketing effort that waves the eco/sustainable/reusable flag in our faces? How about actual puncture and abrasion resistance? Tensile strength? Will it be in short supply for the first several years making it more desirable? Do we really need another excuse to keep using long-chain polymers at such a tremendous rate? Why not change our mindset on having the latest and greatest and just go hiking?
They have some pretty good numbers if interested here: static1.squarespace.com/static/5f2c5f37aa44b046dd7f18fd/t/60ff24446b69487938a36477/1627333700961/2021_EcoPak-Guide_v9_Web.pdf www.challenge-outdoor.com/ Scroll down tto the EcoPak Ultraweave section and learn more will take you to the link above. I agree though, long term testing will tell all.
100% recycled materials. That's good, because now there will be thousands of backpackers throwing away their old gear to replace it with this new material.
I think people would sell the old gear to someone else or wait until that gear is damaged enough that it needs replaced. No one going to throw out a perfectly good DCF pack. Cmon lol..
@@FrozensAdventures But see here’s the thing, that tells me you don’t have much experience with DCF as it stands now. For example, I have a DCF pack right now with a solid 4000 thru-hiking mi on it, not to mention all the other trips in between over the years. And there’s nothing wrong with that Pack, couple of small holes in it that I have patched with DCF tape no problem. I would take that across the country again if I felt like it. That pack weighs at about 18 ounces. I also have a DCF tent, that would be the thinnest DCF you can get. That tent has a solid 2600 miles on it and not to mention all the weekends and other hikes that I have on it. I am taking that on a 2700 mile hike this season with no worries and a few holes patched with DCF tape. So the thing is, none of us ultra lighters are complaining about the durability of the lightweight DCF that we use right now. So there’s no possible way you could convince any of us to buy some thing that’s heavier because it’s more durable, it’s just not a valid argument. We’re not complaining about Durability. Unless you have a product that’s lighter, we simply don’t care.
OK I had to get back on here after snooping around with the whole ultra 200/400 thing. It seems my argument doesn’t matter because all the ultralight companies are switching over to altra 200 anyways and that’s quite obvious because of its price tag. I haven’t shopped around for a pack for 4 months so I didn’t really know. the company I bought my last pack from 4 months ago, one of the founding ultralight companies just discontinued all their DCF and replaced it with ultra 2/400. If ultra 200 is going to replace DCF well then that’s that but I still stand with my original statement, those are solid points . If I do have opportunities in the future to buy DCF over ultra 200 I will,because it’s lighter and extremely durable, Like in the sense, I don’t need more durable.
I have A pack in 200 Ecopak and It's already showing signs of ware. My 100/200 Robic nylon pack has no signs of ware and I've had it 3 years and 10x the miles I've put on the ecopak. So far in my experience Robic Nylon is still the superior material in most respects. The water resistance isn't as high , and it's slightly heavier, but all pack companies are recommending pack liners regardless of the material and I'll take some extra.weigjt for durability. I am still excited about the Ecopak and it's future, but I'd say 400 Ecopak minimum especially for high abrasion areas. Some companies are already adhering to his method for example; the EVLV from Waymark uses 400 on the bottom and 200 on the rest of the pack.
Yea it's weird at the moment. I am seeing more and more vendors switch from DCF over to Ultra. Not sure what the deal is, maybe they are getting tired of the Dyneema minimum order requirement. Wasn't DCF 2.92oz/sq yd $31.50 a few months ago, and now it's 25.50? Ultra 200 looks to be $28.00
@@FrozensAdventures Maybe the competition is driving down DCF prices a bit? Plus they were recently sold, so maybe some changes are and will be happening.
3:00 - Ecopak fabrics are not made from 100% recycled materials. Most of their fabrics have 100% recycled polyester parts, this excludes coatings and backings.
And also this is not the case for the Ultra-line fabrics you are talking about, they contain new nad recycled components. There is a really good PDF on the Ecopak website explaining this. :)
You're right. I'll pin this comment.
200d Ultra PE is woven and laminated to recycled, waterproof RUV film. At just 3.5oz/sqyd, it far exceeds the technical properties of any similar weight fabric available on Planet Earth!
static1.squarespace.com/static/5f2c5f37aa44b046dd7f18fd/t/60ff24446b69487938a36477/1627333700961/2021_EcoPak-Guide_v9_Web.pdf
Hey all this is a collection of information taken from all over the place. Most sources are in the video description, but if I got anything wrong, please let me know and I'll update this pinned comment.
I can’t wait to see the tents that come out of this.
...and tarps!
Metoy#
When are we going to see the ultra fabric tarps and will it compare to dcf?
It's definitely heavier than DCF but apparently more durable . Don't have a time frame for tests but backpacks of ultra 200 I expect to last for 2 thru hikes instead of being tattered after 1. Thats the only way to justify the weight over DCF
I ordered a Unaweep 4800 from Seek Outside a few weeks ago made in Ultra 400 not even realizing it was a new material so now I'm really excited to get it and try it out. Thanks for the info.
That is awesome!
I've got a couple packs from Waymark that use ecopak, and that stuff is awesome. It's also 100% recycled. It's great to see these companies caring more about the impact of the fabrics they're using. I'm really itching to get my hands on some of the ultra fabric.
I agree man! Hope all is well and keep rockin on the podcast!
Grumpy old man here. If you want something bomber, don't forget about good old Cordura. I have a Cordura climbing pack I bought in the 1970s - I've used it for thousands of days and it's still going strong. I sit on it, I've hauled it up rock pitches, I've thrown it into the holds of planes, I've bushwhacked through thickets...
Indestructible. Any of these fancy composite thingies would have been in the landfill decades ago.
Is it a touch heavier? Sure. Is it waterproof? Not very. But I use a liner and the extra weight is pretty insignificant in real life. And compared to the composites, it's cheap and has a much nicer hand.
If you're looking for value and durability, you don't always need the latest shiny thing!
Was just about to purchase a Lite AF for next season! This was a helpful video! Didn’t know they had switched over! Makes it more exciting to get a new pack! Thanks for the vid!
They sell DCF , xpac , and ultra fabric packs
Im making raised diamond pattern sewn cushions out of this stuff for my camper, feel kind of bad im not making a tarp tent with it.
I was able to get my curve 46l in the Ultra 200!! Done a few hikes with it and I'm beyond pleased with it! and the material def is a game changer, in that it has much better abrasion resistance! I love it! Thanks for the videos Frozen! keep em comin'!
Thanks for sharing!
I've already noticed some ware and abrasion with only a few trips. I am going to take a few more trips before I decide.
Hey Jason Exciting things to come that is fantastic and a perk for decluttering the world and cheaper I will take the few extra ounces for that.
For sure me too!
AWESOME 👊 Thanks Jason, appreciate the update for sure👍
You bet
Wow!! Thank you for sharing!!🥾🥾⛺️
You bet!
Great first run review Frozen. Have a great Thanksgiving. God Bless
You too Warren
Sounds promising. Thanks for your research on this.
Any time!
Awesome! I think Waymark is using it too! Can't wait to see what they do with it.
Pretty much everyone except Zpacks I believe is starting or already using it. It will be a while before we see some long term testing but there are already people on thru hikes at the 1000+ mile mark with ultra 200 packs.
I agree with @Backpacking with Buckley. Mark introduced XPAC as an option a few months ago.
Sorry… I meant ECOPAK, not XPAC
I ordered my first ultralight pack from SWD a few weeks ago (upgrading from an REI flash 45), and it will be made with Ecopak! I'm excited!
Good material so far I'm still concerned about delamination but we will see how it goes.
@@FrozensAdventures my 200 ecopak is already showing ware. Not so much that it has threatened the integrity of the pack, but still noticable when compared to my 200/100 Robic Nylon pack.
I picked up a Fast Track Pack in Ultra200 and it’s fantastic. Unlike most of the DCF offerings it’s actually soft to the touch when rolling the top down, is far less noisy (when rolling the top down) than HMG’s DCF packs in cold weather too.
Also comes seam sealed like DCF.
Enjoying it so far.
Good point on being less noisy. My DCF packs stop being noise after a while of use but Ultra 200 is quiet out of the gate.
Thanks for the video. Seems like Ultra doesn't fully hold up. Multiple reports about bad delamination. It should be way more but I assume most people don't thru hike with them. Last year on the PCT I saw two Ultra packs only as it was so new. The people reporting delam are people who hike extensively, too. Also I think Challenge did adjust the fabric already or offer different fabric now.
I've gotten back to Gridstop and holding off the Ultra.
Just talked with a gear vendor about this apparently Ultra200 has been replaced with Ultra 200x. Better strength and so far no delamination
Just ordered a Curve 30 in ultra 200 and excited to see it perform. I have read and seen photos of this material delaminating in early Palante Desert Packs. Some theories are that it needs to be seam taped to prevent delam from where it is stitched. Now that it’s widely available, we’ll know soon enough.
I've heard both sides, could be anything but I'm watching that issue as well.
Thanks. Sounds good, but I definitely would be interested in verifying the water proofness.
Absolutely
You had me at recycled water bottles! I will keep an eye on this fabric to see how the reviews are for packs made from it.
Check out the links in the video description that I left for you. Some really good stuff in there.
It's great to hear about new and cheaper materials! I'm a firm believer in the Vxo7! MANY Miles on my Superior Wilderness Designs pack! Can't wait to see how this holds up, and I love that it's made from recycled materials!
Right on!
great video and fabric my review will be 100% real world 600 mile thru hike review bushwhacking/ blowdowns / 5.5 days of all day after day rain / everything you get on the less travelled trails once I’m done with the BMT
I'll push people over there to check it out when you are done!
Ultra 200 is definitely on my shortlist for my next pack material. Can’t wait until it gets a little more time to be field tested to see if it will hold up as well as I want it too.
Here's hoping buddy! PCT PCT PCT PCT!
Yea, I was checking out the SWD Rugged Long Haul 50. It's made out "bombproof" Ultra400, weighs about 2 lb fully tricked out and can handle up 50 lbs in a pinch. I'm anxious to see if they start making tarps out of it. So far, the color options seem pretty limited.
Yup I'm looking forward to that too. I saw the swd article about their testing
Yeah, I read that too. Looks promising
So the UV vulnerability is a concern when canoe-tripping with packs laying in the canoe in the sun for hours a day. ...maybe they can work on the UV thing.
How does the abrasion resistance compared to Dyneema Diamond Technology 2.0?
Nice video dude! Am using the Atom Ultra atm. Really looks to be next level and all the environmental benefits just make it ever better ✌️ Ben.
Yea it's a pretty great fabric as long as long term testing works out.
@@FrozensAdventures yeah definitely, excited to how it’s performed after it’s been out on a few long trails. Am sure they’ll be a few packs used next year for some proper real world testing.
Any updates on tents or tarps made of ultra fabric?? Thanks
I asked Dan Durston whether he would use Ultra 200 for his future pro tents. He told me that while Ultra is awesome for backpacks like his Kakwa, it's too heavy to be used in a tent as a tent needs way more fabric.
Sub’d and applauded when you got UHMWP right on the first try
Ha thanks!
Just ordered mine
Enjoy!
Have you heard of any of the tarp makers who are thinking of making a tarp out of this?
I have not but that's not to say that they can't I do think that the material needs to enolve into something like an 100 denier fabric. Right now we are at 200 denier with Ultra 200. Ultra 400 is roughly 400 denier and so on.
Very interesting
I have a onesie that is made out of recycled plastic bottles from the Norwegian military which allows me to get down to extremely low and I do mean extremely low temperatures so far I've been into -67° below with them
As of waterproofing well they kind of absorb that a little bit a lot of water I have no idea but it's generally just a sweat that gets soaked in and then evaporated out rather quick
Matter of fact I believe the name is called The Nookie Iceman
CG are you the original inventory of Ultra 200!!!!????
@@FrozensAdventures I wish but Sadly not me
😂
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Okay, there's your round of applause! Well, you're oval of applause, but not indicative of less appreciation.
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Yeah the Ultra fabric seems to be the next big thing, cant wait till they learn how to print on it like DCF! :D
They are printing on it! Well, not super fancy prints, but at least some fun colors. Check out liteaf’s lineup for examples.
Yup colors for now and if they can do that the next step is getting the licensing to print patterns
I googled but didn't see any thing in a quick look, any idea where to buy the material itself if you wanna make your own stuff?
I'd assume you would have to reach out to Challenger SailCloth directly.
@@FrozensAdventures Ah, ok, cool. Thanks dude
Seam Tape are not Dicht similar to the Stalker Psychotroniker Hirnis
Hi Jason, I just asked the same question to Devin, interested to see if you have had a play around with the EPX fabric? How does EXP compare to Xpac in terms of waterproofing, specifically EXP200 vs VX21?? Have you done any tests to compare?
I can't comment on the EPX line of fabrics yet. I've never seen the fabric. I think Devin answered you though.
I don't get it. How are they a "DCF killer" They weight litterally 10 times as much.
No idea what you mean. Look at all cottage vendors. They are switching.
@@FrozensAdventures The lightest ultra is 2,92oz/sqyd and DCF is 0.5oz/sqyd. That's not insignificant. I just don't see how you could make anything lighter using the ultra unless you are using far less of it.
My prediction is in the next couple years specific fabrics are developed to compete directly with the lowest fabric of DCF. That's all I'm saying also keep in mind it's not always about the weight it's about the door ability of the product I personally don't want a backpack to last for only one through hike I'd rather last for several years
I asked Dan Durston whether he would use Ultra 200 for his future pro tents. He told me that while Ultra is awesome for backpacks like his Kakwa, it's too heavy to be used in a tent as a tent needs way more fabric.
Yes ultra 200 is way to heavy.
Seems like there are multiple types of Ecopak fabrics? Waymark advertising theirs just as ECOPAK while others advertising as Ultra 200, these are different right?
There's different ECOPAK fabrics. Ultra is the EPL version and I got it wrong (and pinned a comment to the top) EPL is made up of SOME recycled materials. Check out the pinned comment to learn more.
Zpacks didn't get the memo about being cheaper than DCF ;)
Only way it's going to happen is if challenge sailcloth comes out with a similar fabric and dyneema and challenge start competing for market space.
@@FrozensAdventures Does the fabric absorb water? I have a ULA Circuit and it hold water and its so heavy. So I start looking for something that absorb less water.Thanks :)
you may think i know a thing or two about ultra by now. i do not. haha. Very informative 👍
Thanks for watching Mr. Newbold. Please give my regards to your ultralight sunglasses.
@@FrozensAdventures 🤣
Beerish
Sorry frozen 🥶 called you Chris
Thinking of the lite Af guy
CRS setting in
Da Breeze
All good man!
Very good video on this topic! I bought an SWD Superior Ultra 200 pack and should be in mid-Dec...high hopes to use this on the Pinhoti & AT next year. Would appreciate your opinion on sealing this pack. The SWD packs aren't seam sealed. Do you think you can use DCF tape to seal these or would it be better to use a seam sealer like "Seam Grip"? I plan to still use a pack liner and want to be cautious not to add too much unnecessary weight.
My LiteAF Ultra 200 pack is taped with DCF so yes I'm positive you can do it. As long as it's EcoPak EPL
@@FrozensAdventures Thanks I’ll try that route first 👍
All, don't get your hopes up just yet. I contacted Zpacks to see if they would be making an Altaplex in the near future made of ULTRA 200, because all things being equal with regard to weight, who wouldn't want the added benefits of the ULTRA 200 material (tear strength and wear resistance) right? The Altaplex is made out of a much lighter DCF that is 0.55 oz/sqyd for the canopy and the floor is 1 oz/sqyd. Compare that to ULTRA 200 that is 3.5 oz/sqyd. According to Zpacks an Altaplex made from ULTRA 200 material would be 4 to 5 lbs!!! And the weight may be more. I did some research online that said ULTRA 200 is 5.9 oz/sqyd.
For comparison, the Altaplex made from 0.55 oz/sqyd DCF and 1 oz/sqyd DCF is 15.4 oz. Equivalent tent constructed from ULTRA would be 4 to 5 lbs (according to Zpacks). Not exactly light!
Like the rest of the hiking community, I am very excited to see a new material on the market. Hopefully in the future, they'll be able to engineer a lighter weight ULTRA / EcoPack material comparable to the lightweight DCF fabrics that can be used for shelters. Hope everyone finds this information useful.
We're hoping for an ultra 100 fabric for tents and tarps
We use waterproof stuff sacks inside our backpacks to keep things dry. Why are backpacks not made with the same waterproof material?
The material itself is waterproof. It's where the seams are sewn where it becomes a problem. Typically these are taped to make the stitched areas waterproof or extremely water resistant as well. Personally I use a nylofume pack liner to keep all my important items dry even when submerged.
@@FrozensAdventures they should just make nylofume backpacks 🎒 lol
Ultra is definitely an interesting fabric. Having had some time with it to play around with the cutting and sewing of it, it’s got some challenges, but regardless it’s exciting to see something new that has good application to backpacks.
Even the ECOPAK EPX fabrics are amazing and are a better option than XPac at this point.
Hey Devin, how does EXP compare to Xpac in terms of waterproofing, specifically EXP200 vs VX21?? Have you done any tests to compare?
@@jamesb7563 both fabrics are 100% waterproof. Because of the backing materials on both fabrics you cannot seam tape them.
@@BackcountryExposure Thanks Devin, do people seam seal the inside of their packs made of these materials or does that not really work?
@@jamesb7563 you could try, but seems unnecessary when a simple pack liner is less hassle and provides better protection.
Good to know Devin. I talked to Chris at LiteAF and he loves the stuff, actually convinced me to check it out for myself. Especially when the vendor is environmentally responsible and self sustaining.
Hello Jason,
I've been following you for many years now and after the video of your first Cuben Tarp in 2016, I pulled the trigger on the same tarp. Recently I was changing out my continuous ridge line and noticed the fibric was comming apart at both ends of the tarp ridge. Now that I'm retired I can't see dishing out the money for another cuben tarp. Before I get a sil-poly replancement tarp, I'd like to know if you have heard of any cottage tarp produces that they will be using the Ultra 200 materials for tarps in the VERY near future? Thanks for any insight you can offer!
It's really coming apart? Mine is still going strong even after a thru hike. I've talked to Chris from LiteAF about the possibility of a tarp and just got a maybe. If it does happen I think we'll start seeing them pop up for late spring / early summer. This is my just guessing though.
@@FrozensAdventures I got the camo tarp as did several of my friends and they have had the same issue. I contact the manufacturer and they don't think its repairable, and suggested I over tightened the ridgeline. I maybe use the tarp 30-45 nights a year, but I guess it's back to Sil-poly until the Ultra 200 makes an appearance. So sad, I love the water resistance of the DCF. Thanks for your reply!
Did everyone that had the issues get the camo tarp?
IMO the best part of this is DCF might have to compete and the price will come down... its stupid how expensive it is.
It's more than stupid, lots of restrictions for a small company buying too.
my backpack is water resistant (waterproof one out too) only 1 lbs 9oz, no internal frame 40 plus15 LBS capacity what is price from aliexpress $63
Nice find! Hope it works for ya
@@FrozensAdventures from aliexpress 3f Gear backpack..
where can I buy it?
wanna make my own pack with it
www.challengesailcloth.com/
You said cheaper I don’t see it
Not sure why you can't see it. It's a savings of $10 per yard over DCF. See below:
ripstopbytheroll.com/products/2-92-oz-dyneema-composite-fabric-hybrid-ct5k-18-wov-32c?variant=1312431177754
ripstopbytheroll.com/products/challenge-ultra-200?variant=41964645351594
UHMWPE. 👏👏👏
Haha thanks!
Are these fabrics, EcoPak, can also be made in China? The U.S. is too far away from us and sourcing from America is out question. It will double the price If sourced from the U.S. Another thing, In China I believe, they also recycled PP bottles for fabric correct me if I'm wrong.
Anyone take the time to see how much energy it takes to turn recyclables into useful material? It may not be as good for the environment as people might think. I prefer dyneema composite fabric. And no, it can’t be beat in the waterproof category.
Chris
Just got a vx210 pack from six moons design
It looks pretty good and should hold up
I will see how it does on the
AT this spring
Thx for great articles
Da Breeze
Enjoy!
How do we knows this is NOT just another shallow marketing effort that waves the eco/sustainable/reusable flag in our faces? How about actual puncture and abrasion resistance? Tensile strength? Will it be in short supply for the first several years making it more desirable? Do we really need another excuse to keep using long-chain polymers at such a tremendous rate? Why not change our mindset on having the latest and greatest and just go hiking?
They have some pretty good numbers if interested here:
static1.squarespace.com/static/5f2c5f37aa44b046dd7f18fd/t/60ff24446b69487938a36477/1627333700961/2021_EcoPak-Guide_v9_Web.pdf
www.challenge-outdoor.com/ Scroll down tto the EcoPak Ultraweave section and learn more will take you to the link above. I agree though, long term testing will tell all.
100% recycled materials. That's good, because now there will be thousands of backpackers throwing away their old gear to replace it with this new material.
I think people would sell the old gear to someone else or wait until that gear is damaged enough that it needs replaced. No one going to throw out a perfectly good DCF pack. Cmon lol..
@@FrozensAdventures just poking some fun at you, brother.
Ahh gotcha!
It doesn’t really matter how much more advanced the material is, all that matters is that it’s heavier..
And I think that is the big problem with the UL mindset. Yes it's a small bit heavier but also a lot more durable. Gotta pick your poison.
@@FrozensAdventures But see here’s the thing, that tells me you don’t have much experience with DCF as it stands now. For example, I have a DCF pack right now with a solid 4000 thru-hiking mi on it, not to mention all the other trips in between over the years. And there’s nothing wrong with that Pack, couple of small holes in it that I have patched with DCF tape no problem. I would take that across the country again if I felt like it. That pack weighs at about 18 ounces. I also have a DCF tent, that would be the thinnest DCF you can get. That tent has a solid 2600 miles on it and not to mention all the weekends and other hikes that I have on it. I am taking that on a 2700 mile hike this season with no worries and a few holes patched with DCF tape. So the thing is, none of us ultra lighters are complaining about the durability of the lightweight DCF that we use right now. So there’s no possible way you could convince any of us to buy some thing that’s heavier because it’s more durable, it’s just not a valid argument. We’re not complaining about Durability. Unless you have a product that’s lighter, we simply don’t care.
OK I had to get back on here after snooping around with the whole ultra 200/400 thing. It seems my argument doesn’t matter because all the ultralight companies are switching over to altra 200 anyways and that’s quite obvious because of its price tag. I haven’t shopped around for a pack for 4 months so I didn’t really know. the company I bought my last pack from 4 months ago, one of the founding ultralight companies just discontinued all their DCF and replaced it with ultra 2/400. If ultra 200 is going to replace DCF well then that’s that but I still stand with my original statement, those are solid points . If I do have opportunities in the future to buy DCF over ultra 200 I will,because it’s lighter and extremely durable, Like in the sense, I don’t need more durable.
I have A pack in 200 Ecopak and It's already showing signs of ware. My 100/200 Robic nylon pack has no signs of ware and I've had it 3 years and 10x the miles I've put on the ecopak.
So far in my experience Robic Nylon is still the superior material in most respects. The water resistance isn't as high , and it's slightly heavier, but all pack companies are recommending pack liners regardless of the material and I'll take some extra.weigjt for durability.
I am still excited about the Ecopak and it's future, but I'd say 400 Ecopak minimum especially for high abrasion areas. Some companies are already adhering to his method for example; the EVLV from Waymark uses 400 on the bottom and 200 on the rest of the pack.
That's sad to hear and what I was worried about. Could you possibly send me picture of the wear and tear to frozensoutdooradventures@gmail.com?
Yay! More overpriced fabric for the masses 😂
Rick!
So far, the price is very similar to DCF, at least so at ripstopbytheroll. Definitely not significantly cheaper.
Yea it's weird at the moment. I am seeing more and more vendors switch from DCF over to Ultra. Not sure what the deal is, maybe they are getting tired of the Dyneema minimum order requirement. Wasn't DCF 2.92oz/sq yd $31.50 a few months ago, and now it's 25.50? Ultra 200 looks to be $28.00
@@FrozensAdventures Maybe the competition is driving down DCF prices a bit? Plus they were recently sold, so maybe some changes are and will be happening.
Very well could be. I'll be interested in seeing the effects after inflation too.