Breadtube vs Economics #2: Response to Shaun on Railway Privatisation
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 ก.ค. 2024
- Should we nationalise trains and other utilities, or privatise them? Are there other options beyond these two?
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I am an academic economist from the UK who has long been critical of the economics profession and how economics is used in public policy. Mostly the channel will cover economics with a critical perspective but I aim to educate people about economics in the process, so I'll try to explain key concepts and ideas along the way. That way, even if you disagree with aspects of the videos you will hopefully learn something from them. Subscribe for more!
References (in rough order of appearance):
Part 1 of my series on Breadtube and Economics - Response to Philosophy Tube on Housing: • Breadtube vs Economics...
Shaun’s video ‘How Privatisation Fails: Railways’: • How Privatisation Fail...
Why did we sell off the railways? FT feature • Why did we sell off th...
Rethinking the Economics of Land and Housing, Ryan-Collins et al
Why are Britain’s trains so bad - could nationalisation fix them?, Channel 4 • Why are Britain’s trai...
‘Passenger satisfaction on British Trains rises again, survey finds’, the Guardian
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...
Impact of the privatisation of British Rail: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_...
Rail accidents in the UK: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...
‘Twenty years of privatisation’, John Kay
www.johnkay.com/2002/06/01/tw...
‘The Systems Regulation Model’, Dieter Helm
‘Infrastructure investment, the cost of capital, and regulation: an assessment’, Dieter Helm
Glas Cymru site: corporate.dwrcymru.com/en/abo...
‘For Worker Democracy’, Chris Dillow
stumblingandmumbling.typepad....
‘Public Ownership 2.0’, Weekly Economics Podcast podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast...
Hillary Wainwright’s excellent site redpepper: www.redpepper.org.uk/
‘Why public transport is broken’, Tom Haines-Doran
www.rs21.org.uk/2016/01/03/wh...
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This is the kind of thing we need. Taking down right wingers is important, but actually refining our own solutions and giving constructive criticism is the true state of good discourse.
I loved how he makes a jab at this @1:49
This.
This kind of thing: Criticism of each other's arguments etc, is at once the 'left's' strength and weakness.
While it can create disunity and be perceived as weakness (especially in the US where appearing strong is more important than being correct) it means our approaches to problems are constantly being refined and are not bound by ideology or loyalty to a party/group.
How is that what's happening here at all? This dude literally halts his "serious voice" to make a jab at Sean and argues for privatization the entire video. What. What. Homie you gotta step back. This entire channel was clearly created to leech off 9f the success of channels like Sean and Three Arrows. It's gross.
@@ihaps1117 he straight out says the privatised system is a ripoff 7:17 Tbf he says it specifically for the rail system but a shill wouldn’t admit that even a small portion of the system is bad.
"poor people use buses, not trains" is kinda missing the underlying factor.
Poor people tend towards regional transit rather than inter-city transit because they go to and from employment and necessities, not on trips. Buses are disproportionately represented in regional transit because they're cheaper to deploy and regional transit is chronically underfunded.
The dichotomy worth analyzing, then, is less buses vs trains, and more regional transit versus intercity transit.
I know he said the video is UK specific for this exact reason, but I think the regional vs interstate distinction is also better because it is more broadly applicable. After all, buses = regional, trains = intercity does not hold true for every country or metro area.
To your average person in NYC, for example, trains and buses both refer to forms of regional transport, and are actually both run by the same public-benefit corporation (so kinda nationalized?)
There are a lot of other differences between buses and trains besides the length of the trip. I recommend riding an interstate Greyhound and asking your seatmate why he or she is not on Amtrak.
@@yrobtsvt yes, my point is that we should be focused on the distance vs being focused on the mode.
I agree completely. But there’s also the consideration that train fares are prohibitively expensive such that poor people don’t use them because they *can’t*, not necessarily because they don’t want or need to.
@@mercuryatamolos3687 I'd argue its more often a matter of urban vs rural. Train networks need a certain volume of traffic to justify the cost of the system itself while a bus is more self-contained and works largely just by using regular roads. Trams and Subway stations are also used for short distance travel but those are largely limited to urban centers. Meanwhile, buses are also used instead of trains in places where the geography doesn't work for trains.
Referring to Shaun as Shaun Skull has the same energy as referring to videogame characters by their name and the game's title as a surname, like Sans Undertale
Steve Minecraft
Shammy Owl
Dunkey afroamerican
@@PanConQueso001 ????💀💀
I thought pelple do that a lot though.
“One local man was attacked with an umbrella” that seems quintessentially British
The Russians also have a history there.
@@iAmTheSquidThing seems like Russians have a history everywhere
"loco" (locomotive) man, surely?
When I went to Japan, the situation was actually the opposite. Most people used trains for intercity travel, and buses took you to more rural areas and villages.
Trains are useful because they avoid traffic, have a higher capacity, and are more efficient, if you get a system that is interconnected and affordable enough, there's no reason that they can't be intercity transit. Trams are also an excellent solution too.
Sorry this is an old reply, but in the video I was thinking the whole time about Japan and how it compares to other systems. I know trains there are really good, or at least that's what I've heard from a lot of people. I was supposed to visit but the pandemic happened so no first hand experience.
I don't know enough about how they operate though and whether their system has any sort of application for the UK or anywhere else that has issues.
But you're right, it's kind of the reverse there with trains and buses.
@@rubys.shibanigans well Japan actually does have a pretty diverse array of privately owned and operated train lines and bus lines. That’s part of the reason they don’t have a trans-modal ticketing system (which is a bit of a bummer) but I think a combination of cultural attitude and government standards drive the independent systems to operate diligently. This of course makes it very appealing as well as the fact that the alternative to public transit would be the car which a lot of Metropolitan areas discourage the use of with road tolls and different ~expensive~ taxes.
I find it really interesting to learn about the british railway system. As a German, here's my two cents about ours':
The german national railway company, Deutsche Bahn (DB), is a weird half-assed attempt at privatisation. It is officially a private company but 100% of market share is owned by the government. The company itself has been ordered by the state to be profitable, but still recieves subsidies, somewhat. You see, for long distance trains the company makes all decisions itself but regional lines are ordered and paid for by the state governments (not federally). The state will decide which company takes over a regional line, which is why the Deutsche Bahn has much more competition here than for long distance routes. This also means that lines crossing state borders require cooperations between states without the federal government being able to organize it, which is partially the reason why the Interregio, a type of regional train running long distances while still stopping in smaller towns, has died out.
It gets weirder, the DB itself is split up into several divisions, e.g. DB Regio for regional lines, DB Netze for the infrastructure or DB Staion&Service for the train staions and customer support. This creates its own bureaucratic mess. Since the DB needs to be profitable, it has also neglected maintenance of rolling stock and infrastructure for years resulting in an inflexible system that frequently runs at maximum capacity. I could go on, but I think it's clear that this is far from perfect.
I'd like to add one more thing about privatisation. IMO, privatisation in railway cannot work because one of the fundamental aspects a free market needs is not guaranteed: customer choice. The passengers simply do not have a choice between companies since every company has a regional monopoly on the lines that it serves. The greatest power a customer has in capitalism, the decision where to spend their money, is practically nonexistant in railway.
God the DB has a lot of issues. I have used it a couple of times and missed my connection every single time
@@hesseldekraai The day DB is on time is the day the world ends
A few more weird DB facts:
They also buy and sell other european transport companies. They are operating long distance bus company in northern Italy for example.
The system of how they get subsidies is completely broken. They get a lot of subsidies for building new infrastructure or rebuilding broken ones, but not for maintaining infrastructure. This results in a situation where it's often more profitable to let Infrastructure break down entirely, instead of repairing it early.
@@DoubLL DB apologist spotted
@@DoubLL Yup. Let's see what the upcoming elections in the summer will bring. Depending on how strong the greens are we might hope for deprivatization.
my new favorite "person explains a dull thing in a way that is somehow compelling" channel
omg yes lmao
@Seneca lol
If you like that, check out Donoeat1
Economy Shaun
are you on not just bikes? fuckin' looooove that channel
For the record Shaun’s said he will continue the privatisation fails series eventually, and that future videos will be longer and more in depth. It just takes him a long time to make videos.
given how long its taken him, i dont think he should have private ownership over the series
@@DragoonBoom Ooooooh snap
@Najawin deaths cool is Jen, who is one of Shaun's best friends lol. Remember the old name, Shaun and Jen? Thats her. Imo it's not crazy bad for someone to borrow their friends platform, there's no true pro gamer medal for having a purely solo operation.
And paying for people for their labour ie research isn't a bad thing??? It feels like you're trying to insinuate that he's gone down hill because of corruption or whatever but nah that's just not the case. A quick Twitter search will reveal that he freezes patreon payments on months he doesn't release a video (ie most months) he's just painfully slow and if he gotta outsource some work to others that's perfectly fine??? Like how is shAun ruined by capitalism exactly?
@Najawin She also said she didn't want to be credited. For my part, though, I do absolutely agree that a lot of big Lefttubers need to do a better job when it comes to making content on a reasonable timescale. I've become increasingly disappointed looking at how some TH-camrs put out multiple videos in a yearly quarter slowly fall of that and release one, maybe two a year. I don't blame them for taking their time - well-produced content takes time to make. But at least some transparency and clear indication of what's being worked on would be lovely.
@Najawin lol weird, she seems to be using her experience Shaun here as an example of exploitation in leftist spaces. But she never asked to be credited, she said she was only in it for the money, and she made no mention of it being poor, just that she received a portion of the monthly earnings that time (remember, Shaun freezes patreon payments on months where there's no videos, so it's not like she's missing out on royalties or W/E). Also she said it's a shame that there are leftist creators who work harder than those who release very infrequently and that they deserve recognition.
Sorry for the lack of links, I'm lazy lol
So uh their relationship is that they were roommates who started collabing on a TH-cam channel. And now they're no longer following each other on twitter, with one instance where she made weird passive aggressive subtweets at him that she walks back on when someone asks if she's got him dead to rights. They basically have no interaction with one another outside of random people saying "oh yeah Shaun also used to have Jen in his name, she's neat check her out" This is pretty awkward stuff and we shouldn't be prying into what looks like their falling out lol
This channel feels like a breath of fresh air: Economics with a leftist agenda or undertone. I feel at home in the Breadtube, but often think that the economic side of things is underdeveloped or as you say incomplete.
Didn't you mean a BREAD of fresh air?
... I'll see myself out.
This video was useless. All the points brought up can be discarded as coincidences, incorrect or non-important. He definitely has the best intentions, but misses the point of most of shauns video and does much more bad than good, while doing so. He just doesn't sound very intelligent.
@@themage4232 Oh so like Shaun?
BreadTube is a breath of fresh air? Bro nearly all of them are grifters.
@@blacktigerpaw1 compared to very smart people who say very smart things like Ben Shapiro, Candace Owens and Prager U
These videos are class. It's important to remember an argument for socialism can't just be an argument against capitalism.
I feel like it's easy to get caught up in arguing against capitalism because people wont even be willing to consider socialism until they come to accept that capitalism is flawed.
Sure it can.
Capitalism is flawed, every system is. The difference between capitalism and socialism is that capitalism has been proven to succeed where social is so antithetical to human nature that it can't ever be properly implemented. There comes a time when a system fails so often and fails so badly that the body count enters seven digits in less than a century that it's time to give up the ghost.
Socialism failed, get over it
An argument for socialism is an argument against capitalism by its very fundamental roots. You people sound like such idiots when you comment on economics. There is pretty much nothing going for socialism, the only way to sell it is to refute its opposition since socialism doesn’t actually perform better than any of the other ideas
I've been on trains in a few countries and I'm starting to think that the real problem is that there's no aspect of society British people won't attempt to sabotage for themselves
We destroy everything good because there is a view that everything new or different is bad and we should return to some old glory. It's dumb and has basically ruined the uk
"Nationalization and privatization have good and bad"
me:oh my god not this both side argument again
"that's why we need worker democracy"
me:BASED ECONOMICS???
Virgin private vs Chad national vs Thad worker-owned
@@farenhite4329 haha virign like the trains
Richard Woolf would like a word.
mutualisation is true libertarian way. if one recognizes state property is illegitimate, it follows that the state has neither right to keep nor sell it's assets. either they should be considered unowned, or the stakeholders (such as workers and customers) should take ownership of them.
@@sofia.eris.bauhaus workers and customers are technically represented by the government
Partway through the video I was thinking "why not a co-OP instead of national or private ownership" then was very satisfied to see that's where you were going with this
Worker co-op or consumer co-op?
@@seneca983 Should be a mix of both, honestly, a Venn diagram of separate and joint decision-making domains.
@@seneca983 preferably consumer, but either would be better than private ownership or some sort of top down solution imo
@@socialistcatdad I'd also think a consumer co-op would be better than a worker co-op. The interests of the workers and passengers don't always align and the workers might try to hinder reforms aiming to benefit the consumers if it's seen to threaten some of the workers.
Technically, co-ops are also private though they do differ from the more common joint-stock form company.
@@forstudentpower How would a mix work? In a consumer co-op workers can surely also be members but in practice "normal" consumer members would far outnumber them. I don't see how a mix would differ from a consumer co-op.
Train good. Car bad.
(Horse chaotic neutral)
Train lawful good.
Bus neutral good.
Bicycle chaotic good.
Electric car true neutral.
Ferry lawful neutral.
Horse chaotic neutral.
Gasoline car chaotic evil.
Airplane lawful evil.
Cruise ship neutral evil.
@@falsum2701 absolutely underated this one.
This is true.
@@falsum2701 I kinda want to put trams into chaotic good. Though bikes are a good fit too.
Bus..... necessary?
"That's the standard technique of privatization: defund make sure things don't work, people get angry, you hand it over to private capital"
NC
Very true! The Beeching Report was a BR failure.
NHS
Oh cool I specifically emailed Shaun about that video/series. A lot of socialist arguments online seem to boil down to anti-capitalist, but I wanted to know how socialist systems actually work and what, if any, flaws they might have. It has felt like being told to climb out of the oven and into the freezer, since I don't actually understand enough about economics to evaluate stuff like this on my own. Cool to see someone's actually making videos like that!
there are many but you have to move past the democratic socialists and towards anarchist/communist ideas. while democratic socialism is preferable to neoliberalism, it cannot fix the fundamental flaws in capitalism. watch non compete’s video series on anarcho-communism and go from there
Nah don't listen to anarchkiddies, ML 4 life, subscribe to Hakim
@@HxH2011DRA Yeah Hakim is a stand up guy. He really knows his stuff.
@@marscrasher anarchism doesn't really appeal to me so I haven't looked much into it. I suppose I'm willing to try tho, I'll check them out.
@@HxH2011DRA hakim is a disingenuous hack. marxism-leninism is so funny to me. something perfectly suited to the material conditions of early 1900s feudal russia trying to be applied to neoliberal capitalism in 2020. lenin wouldve seen the disconnect himself
Remarkable work buddy
wow
god I fucking hate the word buddy
@@TheHenranMan oof lol
@@TheHenranMan ok buddy
@@TheHenranMan thats rough buddy
Inconclusion: the British personnel just naturally suck at managing, we need to replace the British personnel.
We did that here in Ireland. After some initial difficulties, it turned out to be a good decision overall. 😄 It turns out though that they can be good at managing health services, mostly, just as long as you keep it out of the hands of dirty, filthy Tories.
Ironically we actually have in many cases. Transport has been contracted out to companies which are owned by other countries' governments.
I think it has something to do with speaking English, because the U.S. does less with more resources than countries like Germany, Japan, and the Netherlands, etc.
@@TheSpecialJ11
Not necessarily.
Only when placed and managed by a bureaucracy that is far removed from the actual realities on the ground. India was run by District Officers in Orwell's day that managed more than a million "colonial subjects" with one or two white British officers and a handful of troops.
Coming from a city with an outstanding train and metro system, Madrid, but living abroad It's really reamarkable how important is public transportation and how little we value It.
Love your videos mate.
We don't have good public transport here.
We do have perpetual road construction, smog, and giant freeways.
@@venga3
We don't have political corruption?😆
Relative to what country?
...Our politicians are basically controlled by the campaign donations of the rich.
@@venga3
Fair enough, I thought about that after I said it.
That Shaun impersonation was spot on 😂
+
Yeah, but not I can't not see the massive similarities between his style and Shaun's. I'd say the whole video is a Shaun impersonation, but that sounds like I'm saying it is a bad thing... which it isn't.
@@travcollier it's not a bad thing, I like Shaun. The chud dunking is fabulous
@@nothingslost9586 Agreed. Just saying that his whole video presentation is very similar to the way Shaun does it... which is good.
I spent too much time practicing this.
I'll tell ya, if I had a train to get me to the other end of my state. I could have gotten that job I wanted.
I reckon physical mobility is one of the main factors in social mobility.
North America and commuter rail just don't play nice together.
@@wolfwolf354They used to. Car companies have spent a lot of time and money lobbying
Destiny got destroyed in this debate
Wrong channel :o
Sure?
Destiny has said in the past that Shaun is a Patreon leech due to his very slow upload cycle.
It's not far from the truth tbh, but Shaun is still good nonetheless.
@@camron.w1841 shaun paused patreon charges when he took a break after bell curve and actively tells people not to donate more than five bucks.
Destiny is just really fucking salty about Shaun for some reason lol
@@DiddntFindANameLol Can't really blame him tbh. Breadtube is a highly profitable venture, be it in streaming or videos. Why make more when you've already got so much?
@@camron.w1841 idk man, streamers and youtubers are some of the most burn-out prone artists I've ever seen. The whole system needs to be reworked. You shouldn't be obligated to pour your entire essence into your work to be allowed to make a living.
I'd like to add that if anyone is interested in learning about railways then go and watch Gareth Dennis he's a railway engineer and really knows what he's talking about.
I would also like to say that i think the biggest reason for the poor state of our railways is that there is no long term plan for what they should actually do other than existing.
The only big project to improve capacity on the network has been HS2 which leads in to my point on busses the only reason people would take a bus over a train is either because there is no railway line or because it too expensive (I say this as a regular user of both) and one of the best ways to make train tickets cheaper is to run more trains so more people can use them.
Also one major point that never seems to get discussed is the decline of rail freight even though throughout our railways history it was the real money maker and that has all but dried up in the time we live in.
Overall good video hope this topic is brought up more often.
Thanks for the mention, and well summed up! I think I've covered nationalisation a little bit in my #RailNatter series but it's always worth revisiting...
Yes! Donoteat01's Franklin episode on trains is also great
The podcast Well There's Your Problem also has a lot of good stuff about railways and why it's important to maintain them especially when they happen to also be bridges
As a Georgist I really appreciate the shoutout at 4:18 :)
Dozens of us!
@@PlaylistWatching1234 I feel like its an ideology that is slowly but surely gaining som traction.
I'm pretty sure that at least land taxes are widely supported among economists whether left or right. Not sure about the general public.
I feel like Georgism (and Pigovianism) could've solved all sorts of problems if the Cold War hadn't come along and reframed politics into Capitalism versus Communism. "Tax taking, not making."
It’s interesting that you called it “loss” when it was owned by the state (instead of subsidy), and now that it’s in private hands, and government still gives it money (more money according to you), you call it “cost”.
I think the key issue is that whatever you call it, it's been higher under privatisation.
@@unlearningeconomics9021 it does matter what you call it, though. Even if we agree that they're functionally synonymous in context and don't, by themselves, invalidate any of your points, this still reveals an unstated assumption or bias of some sort and it's good to be aware of those.
@@Rissa_1322 the difference is just a technical one.
If you run a business and it makes less then it gives out you make a loss.
But if your son runs a business and loses money and asks you to chip in in order for his business to survive a bad year you concider it a cost to you, not a loss. Because you arent engaged in operating a business, you are just engaged in giving out money.
This is the same. When the government operates it themselves it is an operating loss. If it helps out lossleading operations it is concidered a cost, not a loss.
I love how you got your Phd in economics and now you make TH-cam videos on politics and economics for us peasants. Love it.
I'm from Germany and I think our case is an interesting one. Our train system used to be completely owned and run by the government (Bundesbahn), but that changed ~25 years ago. Now it's kind of half-private, half-government run: The government is the main investor and takes the big strategic decisions, but otherwise it's run in a private company style with very regional structures. The effects were both negative (half the staff fired, less far distance trains because some connections weren't worth it) and postive (way more regional train passengers because due to local planning, it turned out to be better). However, we still have major problems with our trains, mainly the delays (80% are at least 5 minutes late) and broken infrastructure.
The Bundesrechnungshof (federal court of auditors) did point out in a report that there are perverse incentives which explain the bad infrastructure: The private company Deutsche Bahn has to upkeep maintanence of the railway, but if it has to be replaced the government will do it which of course makes waiting until things are broken logical. Why the trains are always late can be explained by infrastructure as well. Other countries like Spain, where the train is almost always on time have an extra railway that goes around train stations so they don't have to go through (important for long distance trains). Because what happens here is that the far distance trains are late so often because they depend on every single regional train in every train station they pass to be on time.
I'm not sure what would be the take away from the German experience when it comes to privatisation. It seems to me what you said about it mattering more how it's run and managed than if it's privatised or state-owned is quite true. I mean, I honestly hear noone really wanting the Bundesbahn back, I mostly hear "We need to invest more".
I really like your videos by the way, as someone with no backround in economics I hear a lot of things that seem so intuative that I think they just must be true. Your videos help me getting a better understanding :)
I've been so pumped for this
donating a comment to the algorithm
comment for the algorithm god!
subscription for the monetization throne!
Based
@@alexantone5532 Based
@@mastervule1844 Based
and kekpilled
Thanks for all you do, the left should embrace economics and it's a subject matter that very few people in politics seem to understand (on all sides of the aisle).
I'm kind of confused where this notion of "the left doesn't care about economics" comes. Leftism, or rather socialism, is fundamentally about economics, for example Marx's ideas of socialism revolved around criticising the socio-economic inequality capitalism causes and that's what most of his literary work is about. Economic equality is one if the pillars of the socialist/left agenda. While sure, plenty of leftists don't have a great grasp on economics, centrists and conservatives are generally even more clueless about it, that's because understanding all or many aspects of economics is so difficult that most people studying economics barely even get it (mainly because economics is taught under a pro capitalist framework though).
So I don't think leftists are more incompetent or disinterested in economics or something. I think it just appears so because leftists generally talk about and criticise economics more than any other group of people so they are equally more often attacked about those criticisms.
@@castor9683 You're right, but also we forget that most leftists tend to not get so in-depth when explaining economics to other non-leftists or baby leftists, for the sake of making easily digestible points that can go across without much risk of confusing the audience.
@@beyond_modernity8554 That's true. Though that's a problem you'll always have in economics I think. You need at least half an hour to properly explain like one aspect of one subcategory of one topic of economics. I could talk an hour just about how collectively owned businesses work and even then I probably wouldn't have got all the information across. But of course if you want to debate economics nowadays and you don't get your point across in a couple minutes people lose interest. That's always a delicate balance you're gonna have to manage.
@@castor9683 I specifically stated "left" because this is a "Breadtube vs Economics" video. Additionally, economics is consistently the thing I find that leftists aren't able to articulate well in debate. The idiotic conservative "catch all" of "Well how are we supposed to pay for this very necessary, very beneficial thing?" are easy to thwart, so it's frustrating listening to the most popular leftists not be able to actually reasonably advocate for the economic systems they claim to support beyond "I like things that help people and this seems like it would help people even though I'm not actually sure how it works". I'm not asking them to have degrees in economics, just to not run into problems this channel has so greatly pointed out.
@Brandon Tran Oh how I wish libertarians understood anything.
I wish I could like this video twice for bringing up workplace democracy as an alternative to nationalization! Worker co-ops are the future of socialism!
This is exactly the kind of economics based content which "breadtube" needs. I hope this channel grows and grows, and it would be pretty cool to see you collaborate with some of the other big lefty content creators on the platform
Coops:
- Match the actual broad definition of socialism
- Have reams of data to show they work
Hell yeah
Most leftists actually want that like I know a lot of breadtubers prefer
@@scvnthorpe__ BUT BUT THE WORKERS WOULDN'T ACCEPT IT THEY COULDN'T HANDLE CONTROLLING THEIR OWN WORKPLACE
-this is an actual thing an socdem said to me while I was debating him
@@a.n.l.aantineoliberalismas4504 Yep; most people who are genuinely socialists tend to share the goal of eventually devolving power away from the state, even if they believe that State Socialism is a key part of that transition. Personally i think that relying too much on State Socialism is deeply flawed, and is one reason why many Socialist states have fallen into authoritarianism. I think that Market Socialism through worker co-operatives is a better socialist model to aim for and can potentially bring on board a lot of people who consider themselves Capitalists under the mistaken belief that markets = capitalism
Well I think it's more referred to as "mutualisation" rather than just private workplace co-ops, there's not much on the topic but check this link out, interesting read
party.coop/2018/06/11/why-cant-it-be-a-co-op/
labourlist.org/2009/10/forget-nationalising-the-railways-we-should-mutualise-them/
The story of the railway system in my country? Is that Pinochet destroyed one of the few things my little south american country had, he freaking ruined it all
Pinocho reql
U can say all you want about pinochet... But you can't say he damaged the economy of Chile...
@@freedomordeath89 what???
@@joshuajames6481 The economy of chile...was pretty good in the last decades when compared to the bordering countries
@@freedomordeath89 yeah I checked it out
your shaun impression would be spot on if you'd play it at 0,25 speed
More like around 0.5 to 0.75 speed.
Aw, yes. This scratches that itch of having questions answered that you weren't quite sure how to put into words.
Nationalisation is superior, IF the government cares and maintains it.
If the government doesn't decide to defund it so it can be sold to their pals. I mean, their party donors. Also, the point about "customer satisfaction" is tied to that: we "starve the beast" for twenty years, of course people will complain about the service! And then we "privatize" and subsidize and part of that money is indeed used on improving service but a huge part is also used on customer relations and marketing. Nationalized railway has no need for marketing (not really true but that is considered to be true by people in charge of the money), because where are you going to go? To the competitor?
@@jo1stormlord Government and businesses are the same in that they can just close down their services too.
Government markets themselves too. Some businesses receive subsidies from the government.
Excited! Loved the last in this series, and then watched the rest of your vids. Can't wait for more.
Really digestible stuff. I’d love to see more of a look into co-operatives from you.
Another great breakdown! This type of discourse is vital for us to have. As a leftist and person creating finance related content this is amazing work!
Edit: It came to my attention that I should add some context. I am a leftist specifically a Classical Marxist. Most of my videos are about personal finance and reforms within capitalism i.e. the minimum wage, CA Prop 22, Corporate Lobbying, the Fed and Bailouts etc. I understand that these as SocDem (yuck) in nature. My goal is to present ideas that are accessible to the average working class person who may otherwise vote for right wing populism and is terrified of Marx, but in a way where I am addressing their material concerns. I personally don't see reforms like these as a solution to fixing our problems and we definitely must abolish capitalism.
That being said I believe that through presenting political issues from a materialist framework is what will lead people to the left and that is my goal. I know from growing up in Appalachia that most working class people's woes can be linked back to capitalism and that breaking through propaganda to show them that is what must be done and therefore has to be done by talking about it from a lens they can understand. I want to help build an actionable movement, not a niche. Creators like Philosophy Tube definitely did this for me without being overt and it is far more effective imo.
So if you decide to come by and watch just know that is my goal and I will do more overt leftist content as well but my first goal is to help unite the working class.
Leftist finance content, you say? Well, I thought I'd met the quota with TFD but I suppose I could squeeze in another
@@supernova622 TFD is also great!
@Finnian Wolf You ask a very good question that would be far better to discuss verbally due to nuance, but here goes. Obviously, it depends on the particular system however in general socialism doesn't get rid of entrepreneurs, nor does capitalism promote it. These two systems only answer who gets paid or rather how the resources are distributed. A good example I highly suggest is Richard Wolff who talks extensively about worker owned co-ops which are an entrepreneurial endeavor. The difference being that the goal isn't to profit, but instead to share the gains with rather than exploit the workers.
In short it depends on your goal. If you want to be the boss, then socialism isn't for you. If you believe that workers are where value comes from and therefore they should be rewarded fully for that labor then it is for you.
My counter to the notion of being an entrepreneur in a capitalist system however is that doing so is incredibly hard and the odds are stacked against you unless you have capital already. Therefore, I would argue that starting a business isn't inherently easier in either system and in the US this is merely an illusion. Also, check out Hakim on TH-cam as he has a radically different view than Wolff but both together can provide better context than I probably can. Hope that helps.
@Finnian Wolf Anytime and good luck to you! I would love to start a Co-op someday as well.
I totally love this Channel! stared with the first Breadtube vs Economics and then binge Watched all your stuff!
This is so valuable. It great to see someone way int these issues with an alternative viewpoint and a strong desire to present both sides.
Hoping Shaun gets a chance to see this. Love both of your work, and the idea of you moving to a space of collaboration with the more established folks is a fun thought.
Singapore attempted to privatized its rail system and failed. The privatized company tried to cut cost by saving on maintenance, resulting in frequent breakdowns. For a country without natural resources, being efficient is everything. Every train delay was multiplied by productivity loss of every worker late for work.
The argument for privatization for a national rail system is stupid anyways. There's no competition where's the need for improvement? It's just giving some already rich people more money for profit.
Did you watch the video? He isn't pro privatization. He is not pro nationalization. He is pro worker democracy
Just wanted to say this is a great video and I really enjoyed it! Thanks for putting these out there - very helpful and well thought through
I really hope you will keep up the quality content.
Refining my views on economics and especially advancing my understanding of it with these and enjoying it too while not being too time consuming too much time suits me very well.
Especially since while working on my undergrad I do not have too much time to learn about these thing.
Great Video! Keep it up!
I think the point on busses may be incorrect as, if train fares were lower, most people would opt to get the train over the bus.
The correlation of poorer people catching buses is simply because in the current system they tend to be more affordable.
Really hope the final episode extensively covers the labour theory of value and alternatives!
I am extremely disappointed that you don’t have more videos. We need more! We need to unlearn economics!
A great video ! Hope you continue to grow up in numbers of subs. We really need those discussions. Keep up the good work !
I look forward to seeing more of these videos! Keep up the good work, Unlearning Economics!
:)
Wow, great response time, you champion! Have you heard of an economic modeling software called Minsky? It is open-source and made by an Aussie economist named Steve Keen. I've studied economics too but have never seen anything as good including paid softwares. Hope you have a good day Unlearning Economics!
@@DancingSoldiersOfRa yes me and Steve go way back! I'm sure I will cover Minsky and private debt in a Keensian way at some point soon!
@@unlearningeconomics9021 Holy crap, I didn't see your reply until just now on my second watch-through. It makes sense that you're already familiar with Steve! I'm going to be making some videos about minsky soon so it will be nice that a big channel like yours will be introducing people to it! Have a great week Unlearning Economics :D
"beyond nationalization" I love you
I love this series. I really appreciate the concept of taking someone's argument who, in principle you agree with, but then building on their argument and pointing out when they're making less persuasive arguments and how to improve it. It's so nice to see constructive response videos.
I'm enjoying these they're helping me understand and improve the ideas I have about economics, it's great
Just binge-watched all your videos (I saw this one as a related video several days ago but wanted to watch the rest first). They're very well-made and well-researched, and you did a great job presenting all the information clearly.
Thank you, comments like this really mean a lot.
My biggest critique of the first video was that your thesis wasn't clear until over half way through. You 100% fixed that here. Loved the video and looking forward to the next one, and future ones as well!
After sending this to a few people I wanna also come back and add the question at the end is the type of critical thinking I love to see in videos. Zooming out from issues and looking at them within the meta of what they are. Sometimes you need to be in close examining a topic at it's most nuanced and microscopic level, and that can be good an interesting. Other times you need to step as far back as you can to see if you're even looking at the right topic.
Nice one, i haven't seen shaun's video but so far i'm loving the series of this channel.
This is such an under appreciated channel. Fantastic videos!
Yeah, normal people don't want to listen to economic advice from a leftists. That didn't work out very well in the past.
Commenting to feed and appease the algorithm. Rather than bitter infighting or purity-testing, this kind of thorough and well-researched discussion and reflection on the ideas and views expressed by Breadtude is far more productive for our long-term success-- the world is a nuanced and difficult place, and good discussion and argument for change should reflect that.
Replying to other comments also feed the algorithm
What a hero for posting these videos. Definitely makes me interested in economics
Thanks for all of this! These are more like extended or additional info than critiques. I’m not sure why anyone was blasting you. I appreciate the info.
Goddamn so much of breadtube doesn’t understand economics. Everything sounds good until you provide the economics.
Watch Thought Slime's video on raising the minimum wage.
Eh, I'm not fully convinced. Those points you make apply specifically to Britain but when you look at China, they have a fully nationalized public transportation system, and have the most modern, and affordable high-speed network, with good customer service as far as I can tell (from personal experience). And that system is as centralized as it gets.
A couple of other points:
1.) How was nationalization in Britain not democratic? The British people voted in the Labour Party which proceeded to nationalize public transport, as they advocated for on their party platform.
2.) Regarding busses, I think most leftists don't overly romanticize trains for the sake of it but would also argue that trains should be affordable for everyone.
Hey man, I’m just here for encouragement, this is an awesome channel! Thank you for your work :)
This was really good! And I say that as someone who literally has Shaun's video as a wake up alarm lmao. His video was good, but it really benefits from your critique and addenda. Well done!
If you do an episode on unionization and worker co-ops, I would love to see an analysis of ocean spray, since it is one of the more interesting examples of this process.
18:23 if this means that there'll be a video on co-ops then I'm hyped af
Excellent work again, dude! It's so cool to hear such in depth analysis and actual solutions to this sort of thing. You're exactly what the left needs, keep it up! :D
Love this, an example of how differences of opinion can be expressed without insults and still be entertaining 🎉
I’m here just to boost you in the algorithm. Great work needs to be appreciated.
One thing I have always noticed is that you can clearly see where the richer/economic areas are based on their rail system. NYC is a great example; most of their rails are going from the boroughs to downtown and there is very little inter borough travel with the subways. So I do think focusing more on buses is something the left needs to do. But I really like how you pointed out how simply nationalizing something won’t make it better, you have to nationalize it correctly. Great video. Can’t wait for the next one.
im so glad i found this channel, keep up the good work
Yes so happy you're back, fantastic content creator
I'm entergaged by your content, that is engaged and entertained. promote this more, algorithm
ptsd from garfield eats intensifies
I agree! This engaging entertainment has done many things for me. If I had a poll in front of me to promote my end-user experience, then I would tick the boxes
☑️ *Relaxing*
☑️ *Life-Changing*
☑️ *Educational*
Hmmm. Borgor king.
@@chaosvii same
nice pfp, where's it from
Want to do one on the water industry? I've got all the inside dirty secrets if you want them 😂
Let me guess, Nestle is involved?
@@bachpham6862 nope just UK water company related things
@@tomsan91 Aw, and here I thought Nestle is going to have one of their greedy little fingers up in another human rights abuse issue.
Great video! And thank you!
When you mock other channels that I like, it makes me sad. Not a deal breaker, because you're giving perspectives that I haven't found elsewhere yet, and that's super awesome! I just want to be a happy place, where people are excited to exchange ideas and critique each other!
There you go!
This is quite well thought out, and a refreshing take! I'm still investigating economic studies as I venture to study political economy in university, and this definitely helps my expand my horizons. Given this area of study, a point I would like to bring up is that these conversations seem to be done in the context of unchanging political systems with a changing economic system. For example, nationalization is often discussed in the context of modern governments, and assumes their systems go unchanged i.e. expanded voting rights, breaking down barriers between the voters and political power etc. Most modern democracies are not considered to be effectual, and whenever we as leftists get into economic discussions, I feel we struggle with discussing forward progress in the context of economic and political progress simultaneously. For instance, worker-owned-factory theory is an idea that gets brought up quite often to oppose full scale nationalization of a commodity, often highlighting the sheer fact that nationalized economies are centralized and therefore instill a lot of power to the central government (this then usually leads to systems that are attempted to be done on massive scales, but fall short due to being worn thin). What I find interesting here though is that this does not account for, say, changing the role of localized governments, in the case of the U.S. perhaps giving the voters more direct access to involvement in the process of raising taxes for specific commodities etc. This is not meant to be a critique of this particular video, but more a broader commentary on how we tend to observe Economic and Political change in singular vacuums rather than being comorbid ideas. Nationalization could entail an industry that becomes removed from the privatized industry and shifted to the public sector which is simultaneously being changed to give the average person more equal political power, and thus more say in matters that would happen in said public industries, which is odd because it tells me we tend to interpret "nationalization" as being inherently authoritarian and removed from the voter. TL;DR there are avenues of market abolition that don't involve consolidating power to corporate elites, and economic/political change should be considered in conjunction with one another when discussing tangible social change. Peace and love
I don’t know how I found your channel but you truly are very good at what you do. You provide good economic analysis and constructive criticism on well known political commentators while at the same time providing progressive or alternative solutions to those criticisms and economic problems which I find very helpful. You not only identify the problem but you also find solutions. Also, it is helpful learning about economic concepts while watching your video. It is extremely helpful, especially for left leaning people who are trying to learn about economics :)
The TH-cam algorithm, from what I've gathered from other big youtubers saying the same, prefers if you don't number videos. Recommending this because I hope these videos reach more people because they are super insightful :)
Thank you, that is helpful advice!
I’m very much looking forward to the video on workplace democracy! Keep up the good work! Just don’t let all the praise go to your head.
I love your content, I'd like to see you recomend various readings about economics in the future.
As a Welsh person sick of bad pronunciations, hats off to you on your pronunciation of Glas Cymru.
"Response to Hobbie Stuart on >>Buses are for the poorer
Response to me? I’m not saying anything bro I’m just the man on the buttons
wat
I wish I could save comments because I have neither the time nor the mental capacity to read this atm
@@HobbieStuartMusic how do you play into this, if I may ask. And why do you have the gray thing around your name
Thanks for having closed captions on your videos
This is a class video. Very good take and well put. Shaun will appreciate this
This is the best channel I stg
Really glad to find economic breadtube content. It’s the aspect of the left that I’m most interested in, and yet it’s really hard to find TH-cam videos about it.
I clicked super fast on this video thinking it was, finally, a second part of _his_ series. Good thing someone else took the mantle.
This is a great video, i hope you go into more detail regarding the economics of cooperatives its something im equal parts interested in and ignorant of.
Shaun is outstanding on social issues and debunking the prolific idiots the right celebrates as its thought leaders. But I found his video to be a bit lacking in some areas as well, and I think that if we take more time to create a dialogue like you're doing, we'll be in good shape as a movement ready to make positive changes in the world. Thanks for your contribution and may you have 100,000+ subs in due course.
Can you put a whiteboard where you currently just have your logo on which you summarize important points? I often can't really keep up.
This is an amazing video! I'm glad that I found your channel.
👏 love this! Well worth sitting down and intently listening for a bit!
This is quickly becoming one of my favorite channels
"There are dozens of us, dozens" It's hilarious to me how popular Henry George was in his day but how he has fallen into relative obscurity.
Georgism: too radical/obscure for the Overton window, too “boring” for radicals
I've been advocating for workers democracy for years, mostly out of a gut feeling and because, as you mentioned, it does propose itself as a prime candidate for a synthesis between nationalization and privatization. I am happy to hear someone like you coming to the same conclusion and I hope you will keep engaging with it and evaluating its value whenever possible in your future videos. Great work as always!
Thanks for making these videos so understandable, the economy is confusing but you make it less so
Please break down Marxist economics and how we could incorporate into 21st century
Richard wolff type stuff
The Scottish socialist party have really interesting ideas on nationalising buses and making it a free service
Hell ya, was looking forward to this
Love these videos
12:52
Sorry, what?
The graphics clearly show that those accidents were diminishing in intensity and frequency. So suddenly they explode just before the privatization? It's common sense that when the government wants to sell one asset they let it fade in quality, both to convince the citizens about the "selling" and to lower the price, to maximize the private profit. And in 89 Thatcher was already Prime Minister for a long time. In Portuguese we even have a word to this process: "Scrapping" (Or whatever the translation would be).
And here in 3° world privatization mean giving it to foreign capital. It means people losing their access to energy in favor of a higher profit margin among shareholders in Wall Street. Gustavo Machado made a good video with inner data in worksheets, comparing the public and private metro companies in Brazil, he shows how the private ones attend less people, by higher prices, wile squeeze the workers more.
Private or State owned is a matter of what's more profitable for the bourgeoisie at the moment. If they would benefit from cheap oil or steel, but no one has the capital (or guts) to make it, let the State provide it. In time of de-industrialization, it's more profitable to just assault the public sector. That's why is common that they let the State make the gross initial investment, and then push for privatization for free.
Ai mano, eu acho que o video foi bom, mas pecou em diversos aspectos. Companhias brasileiras de ferrovias são geralmente ou privatizadas para pessoas de fora, até empresas estatais de países um tanto suspeitos, ou então são colocadas a merce de PPPs, eu acredito que o sistema de PPP pode melhorar a situação de nossas ferrovias, levando em conta que é o sistema mais próximo que temos de agradar todos os espectros políticos