In fighting a total war, ordinary people must sacrifice many of the freedoms they enjoy. For the most part, young men and women like Percy see this as necessary in order to defend their homes, families, and way of life. I'm sure there are many of us in the Timeghost community who are a similar age to Percy; on the whole, we are fortunate now to live in a world where such sacrifices are no longer necessary. Researching this episode made me think if a similar scenario were to occur today, would our generation be willing to go through the same trials as our predecessors? Make sure to check out our new series, Timeghost Shorts, over on the Timeghost History Channel: th-cam.com/users/TimeGhostvideos Cheers, James We always welcome comments and discussion, but please familiarise yourself with our rules of conduct before doing so: community.timeghost.tv/t/rules-of-conduct/4518
The most interesting might be a U.S. marine(?) who was a combat medic. He refused to carry a weapon, saved lots of peoples lives, got a medal. Individual biographies of common soldiers or even generals seems to be a neglected topic among WW2 history on youtube. You might try to exploit that niche? It's nothing I need or desire to see, just an angle on history which you might enjoy and which also might garner you more viewers since it really seems to be ignored by existing channels.
I just read a few things about the "project 100 000" today, so seeing that the % of unfit decreased over the years in ww2 makes me wonder if there was some kind of organized program for those who served while they shouldn't have been drafted in the first place during ww2 ?
Telling Stalin you're a conscientious objector sounds like a good way to get put in a non-combative role, like clearing minefields, by running across them.
Honestly, who could blame him?? If an army of genocidal maniacs were invading my country looking to exterminate me and everyone like me I'd have a hard time taking anyone who says "I don't want to fight" seriously. No one wants fight, comrade, but it's either fight or die. Edit: notice I forgot a "to" in the previous comment, but it sounds more "russian speaking broken english" if I leave it out, so fuck it; feels appropriate.
Isaac, the key to sounding like a Russian speaking English is to not use definite or indefinite articles (the, an, a) as those don't exist in the Russian language. Just a tip for you.
@@isaacsorrels4077 Yeah, not like Russians would themselves invade and occupy other countries, murder and deport some of its population, then forcefully conscript even more of these people into red army when Germans invade them. "No one wants fight, comrade, but it's either fight or die." Tell that to the people who still to this day try and paint some countries or its people as "nazis" or "nazi collaborators", because they had their men also conscripted to German waffen ss to fight their countrymen who were conscripted to red army. It WAS a "fight or die" choice, but the "fight" part wasnt some kind of heroic patriotic duty for many, it was a forced "choice" for probably most on the eastern front. You CAN blame stalin, just like you can blame hitler for all of this. If it wasnt for them 2 playing buddies at first, neither would have seen it as easy to wage war in Europe and try divide it between themselves. Calling the millions of soldiers who had to die for both of these evil genocidal maniacs, genocidal maniacs themselves does no justice to the people who quite literally had just the choice "fight or die". Die on the front wearing uniform of either regime, die trying to flee to another neutral country not yet part of the war, die trying to hide your family in the woods, die trying to protect your house from being burned down by either germans looking for supplies or soviets trying to deny these supplies for them.. Didnt even matter if you chose, stalin and hitler made the choice for you. They ARE to be blamed for it. All these people died and they didnt die for some "greater good", they died because 2 genocidal maniacs were willing to have millions die for their need for power.
@@itsKarlDesigns well put especially the last sentence. Which is why the concept of Consciousness Objection is a valid ideal. The politician who says “follow me and I’ll lead you to glory while we kill these people over there” is the person who should always be viewed with a great deal of suspicion. Instead, people seem to fall in line. Here in the West we always bring up WW2 as the big example of whether you fight or don’t fight. How many wars in the 20th century fit that description? None except WW2. The rest were brutality to protect the financial interests of a few. It is difficult to say you won’t be a part of the machine when the pressure from thugs is threatening you and family. But if you are going to be killed anyway why go down aiding the criminal who is going to hurt you eventually?
@@isaacsorrels4077 That doesn't really explain the hundreds of thousands of Russians that fought with the Germans, either as volunteers, partisans or prisoners of war opting for military service rather than slave labor camps. It's not always so clear. For myself, I would consider anyone that threatened my life to be an enemy, and that would certainly include my officers.
My grandfather's remarks on military fitness tests for WWII, "Two doctors looked in your ears at the same time. If they didn't see each other, you passed."
During the Korean War it was said that a South Korean medical for potential recruits consisted of holding a mirror in front of the inductee's face. If steam appeared on the mirror he was still alive and so was given a uniform and a rifle.
My father volunteered for the marines in WWII. Being 15 years olds, with a doctored birth certificate, did not seem to disqualify him. Neither did the fact that he had polio, and had damaged back muscles. He put it as, "no one was looking too close at your papers, on purpose".
That was my favorite comment. I can see the point, but the drawing of an arbitrary line is still funny. I wonder what those numbers were: how many teeth does an effective soldier need?
Vladek Spiegelman in "Maus" described how his father or grandfather had many teeth pulled so that he would not be conscripted into the Tsarist army. He himself underwent a starvation diet consisting mostly of herrings and coffee to avoid conscription into the Polish army, but the following year he did not want to go through the same process again and this time he was conscripted.
My grandpa was exempt. He owned a cheese factory in Wisconsin. I think this may have bothered him to some degree tho, as his brother was wounded and then evacuated from Corregidor in the Philippines. Incidentally, he missed the Bataan Death March by 2 weeks.
My great grandfather was also exempt as he ran a farm and had several children. Interestingly enough when the war was going German POWs were employed on his farm in southern Alabama. They actually built his barn that was still being used until the late 1980s.
@@erwin669 My dad knew a co-worker who surrender in North Africa as a Luftwaffe mechanic. He told my dad that he spent the rest of the War in Louisiana picking cotton.
Sound like in The UK .Seargent comes up to a group of soldiers and says can anyone play the piano if so come with me (takes them to the cookhouse or wherever).One of these days I will learn to spell.
@@johnmccallum8512 LOL, I remember putting my hand up when one of our NCOs asked for people with drivers licenses. The job was driving a floor buffer and a mop.....
Don't forget the WACs. My grandmother was a nurse with Patton's 4th Army, including service during the Battle of the Bulge. She recalled that what truly frightened them was when they came around grabbing all the orderlies and clerks and giving them rifles. It had to be bad if they were doing that. She survived the war by many decades, but sadly died before I was born. I would've been privileged to have known her, and it has been a regret for my whole adult life.
Just an FYI Mr. Kruger. It was the Third Army. The Third Army did have the 4th Armored Division serving in it. Try google search of her name and rank, you never know what comes up. You can also try to find her military record from the Department of Defenses.
The nurses, WACs, WAVEs, SPARs, etc in the US military were all-volunteer forces. The US military has never conscripted women (volunteer enlistments only).
When my father, who had always been sickly and who died just seven years after the war, came home from his draft physical in 1942, he told my grandmother, 'Mama, Hitler must be winning the war. They just took me'.
My great grandfather was drafted into the us army when he was in his 30's and fought from Normandy, Northern France, The Ardennes, and Central Europe (Germany).
I was raised Quaker, and that meant I grew up around an American WWII conscientious objector. He spent the war doing alternative civilian service, and after the war was heavily involved in helping veterans and later helping people avoid the Vietnam War draft. He was quite consistent in his beliefs, spending his last years demonstrating against the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.
I'm sure everyone laughed at that, so enjoy it! I'm not certain why that was a requirement unless a loss of some teeth was seen as an indication that there might be other underlying health issues. It's not like their teeth would ever be used in combat.
@@lycaonpictus9662 Never know, things got pretty nasty in the Pacific. But it's probably about being able to properly chew your food. Have to eat whatever you're given, no matter how tough its texture.
Interestingly conscription in WW1 meant many young men received dental treatment in the Army which due to then being able to eat properly, led to an improvement in their health.
Agreed. I would liked to have seen them talk about Canada's conscription through the National Resources Mobilization Act. Perhaps a seperate episode could be done about that. I'm afraid to say that the discussion of Canada's role in WW2 has been non-existent so far, in contrast to discussion of our role in WW1.
@@will9605 Could be they are saving up Canadas contribution till the Dieppe Raid.... which will be next week!! And you are right about the low level of appreciation of Canadas involvement in WWII..... all I can say now is "Thank You" and keep telling the other boomers just how much we owe to Canadians.
@@japeking1 Thank you so much! And good point about Dieppe! Not to brag but Canada had the third largest navy in the world at the end of the war. We shouldered a huge burden getting the convoys to England. And of course Halifax was a major departure point of allied convoys sailing to Europe. We also trained 130,000 Canadian and Commonwealth air crews through the Commonwealth Air Training Plan.
I was a CO in the Vietnam war. One of my mentors in pacifism was imprisoned in WWI, my other mentor was a CO in WWII and served in a forestry camp. I worked in a mental hospital. Most of the other male ward attendants were also COs.
Choosing not to fight should always be a right in a democracy but as in the case of WWII after the Japanese attack a citizen should volunteer to serve in some capacity be it medic or other. You can't sit back and do nothing. Conciencous objectors can always find a way to serve honorably as long as they do serve. Those who dodged the draft or bought their way out should be so ashamed of themselves. Even a coward and that's a harsh term...can serve in some way. Women have always fought since ancient times and can be excellent soldiers. The only problem with be women in the army is the men who harass, rape or find some other way to make it a problem. There are women who have acted improperly and caused a "distraction" to the men but that is actually rare. Most men in uniform are full of to much testosterone and plain bs as and just can't act right. When I was in Germany in the 80s the female medic who went with our battery to the field was always protected with an escort with loaded 38! That was just rediculous that they thought she had to be guarded like that. It was only 30 days in the field and they worried some idiot could not wait to get back to post! By the way a true story hope no one is too offended by it, one guy in my unit had an inflatable woman he brought with him and rented it out for $5 a visit. I could not believe it was true but he always made a small fortune that way!!! Some guys are just kind of pathetic. That's why women have had such a hard time in the service.!
@@twhis9843 yea man, its your life, not theirs, let them talk what they want, putting an uniform and going to war for politics is not the only type of bravery out there.
This is probably an apocryphal story, but when asked by a reporter during the Blitz if the young princesses would be evacuated, the Queen replied: "The girls will not leave unless I do. I shall not leave unless the King does. The King will not leave under any circumstances."
I'm french. In my country the draft lasted since 1995. One of my colleagues is a conscientious objector and refuses to make his military service in the 80's. He had to do a civil service with other conscientious objectors. He told me that he expected to be with people with similar political opinions like his, but almost all of the pretended to be conscientious objectors just to avoid to crawl in the mud (the only part my colleague would have accepted).
One December 8th my father, who had learned to fly at university, volunteered to be a Navy pilot. During the interview the MD learned he was working at Boeing's Seattle plant and suggested he stay there. In the end he was declared physically unfit to be a pilot, having a punctured ear drum and went back to designing airplanes. Over the years his telling of the story varied between having a punctured ear drum and the doctor just used that as an excuse to keep him at Boeing
My Father was a draftsman-model maker for Curtis Wright, starting in 1939, when he was 19. On December 8, he went in to tell his boss he was quitting to go join the Army Air Corps. His boss looked him in the eye and told him, “Your not a slave, and I can’t prevent you from quitting. But, in case you haven’t figured it out yet, you are in a war critical job, and if you join the military, the only difference in where and how you work will be that you will have to wear a uniform, and will get paid considerably less money. Because quite frankly, your not going anywhere until I decide to release you for other duties.” Dad, decided he would stay a civilian for a while longer.
A fantastic movie, and the cause of death of my pilsner glasses. Along with its accomplice, a basketball.. Long story short, my friends and I were watching it and having some beers, someone was messing with a basketball and looking at the screen, the ball bounced off a nearby object and landed on the table, shattering the freshly filled glasses. Thankfully, not all of the beers were slain in the tragedy. The remainder were instead done in during the course of the film.. But yes, phenomenal movie!
In occupied Holland, young men were basically pressed ganged to "work" in Germany, just a notch above being slaves. This could be a topic to research for a similar movie.
To hear a down home, American boy using the term "lorries" was such an unexpected treat! And congrats to Astrid for ensuring that you and Sparty are always so well turned out. Respect, (as the young people say, I believe).
My uncle was in a CO camp in Canada due to his beliefs. The camp doctor told him that he was not fit for service anyways. So he ran away from the camp, tried to enlist, and was rejected. So he got to go home.
My dad served in the Korean War. He always felt the CO medics were the bravest men in the army. They were on the front lines, unarmed, and constantly going out into the battle area.
Desmond Doss is probably the most famous of all conscientious objectors having won the US Medal of Honor during the battle for Okinawa. The Oscar winning movie made about his story in 2016, "Hacksaw Ridge" is a really good and a pretty historically accurate movie about his time in WW2 (things needed to be cut since a movie can only be so long). I highly recommend it for anyone who has not seen it yet.
I saw it, I am a veteran, I also acknowledge that if you are unable to kill another human it is not necessarily because of cowardice, 5% or so of humans cannot cross this threshold, the other threshold's are cannibalism and incest.
@@julesjules1079 Thank you for your service! Doss was not scared to kill. It was just against his religion being a 7th day Adventist. Doss actually volunteered to join WW2 and was not drafted. He already had a job that would have given him a deferment so that he didn't need to volunteer or worry about being drafted. But he choose to volunteer anyway because that is just the way people were back in the 1940's.
@Kistler Clipz I don't think Sgt York counts as a conscientious objector. While he started out as one he was convinced that it was ok for him to fight in WW1. Which resulted in his famous deeds during WW1.
@@PhillyPhanVinny Point taken, the difference being a conscious decision not to kill, as opposed to an inability, neither which make a man less, and concur re the way things were in the 1940's. A different time, age and value system....
Concientious objectors had a living hell in USSR and Germany. Whatever belief they had, they were no cowards to stand up for that. Some even did that, knowing it probably meant death.
I think that is one reason Jehovah Witnesses were sent to concentration camps throughout Europe. Their religion prohibited lethal violence under any circumstances. Hence they became " useless eaters" under German rule, subject to extermination.
@@johnbroussard9480 yeah, and Franz Jägerstätter was a catolic. As individualls we may or may not have certain views on those peoples beliefs, but it took curage to stand in front of goverment officials and tell them you would not take up arms and knowing you may well die for that. It is a very interesting thing that this has actually helped to drive the views of what human rights means. It has forced countries, goverments and courts to really think about what is a basic human right and not. For example, the European Court of Human Rights has gone over these questions in numerous cases and set a legal standard for what human rights entail. Much of all this would have been slower to get started, or not happened at all, if those things had not come to a point during WW2. This is important because it can be very hard not to develope contemt towards those who kind of stand out from the norm. And when something happen - like a war, or just hard times, this can easily turn into hate. And what hate has done for humanity is easily seen in the Crimes Against Humanity series this channel make.
My grandfather was a truck driver and thus was exempted from the draft. Do any Americans here remember the freight line, “Red Ball”? That’s who he drove for.
I’ve met quite a few Vietnam Vets in my time, and for whatever reason, none of the vets I’ve talked to looked down upon the draft dodgers who went to prison. One fighter pilot told me “if they’re willing to stand up for their beliefs and go to prison for it, I’ve got no problem with him.” The same can’t be said for those who ran off to Canada, when I asked. The Vietnam vets have nothing but scorn for them. I do wonder what their WWII counterparts think about those who did everything in their power to avoid service.
US troops were going to prop up a puppet government in the south that was an unstable and deeply unpopular dictatorship. Hardly a just and unavoidable war. I do not blame people for wanting nothing to do with it. Same goes for most of the US wars since WWII, e.g., Iraq etc. Foreign adventurism with very dubious justification, rather than a necessary fight like defeating fascism and its invasions in Europe was. P.S. According to the CIA fact sheets, the communist government still has majority support there, but the war was not about political ideology to most of them. It was a war of independence, national liberation, and against colonial domination. It was against the French colonial masters at first. Given the US history of fighting against the British Empire for their independence, one would think they would have sympathy for the Vietnamese plight against colonialism and imperialism. Americans were told they were going to fight communism, but really they were going to fight trying to prevent Vietnam becoming a unified independent nation. No wonder it failed then. In the process the Americans killed millions and more in Laos next door in the secret war (that was partly funded by plane loads of heroin imported from there to the USA and other western countries). The USA also killed huge numbers there in the Phoenix Program. A CIA operation using death squads to liquidate opposition to the puppet regime in Saigon. A major war crime that is yet to be prosecuted. If a draft dodger was astute enough to see through war propaganda and understand what was really going on in Vietnam, then I applaud them. The world needs more people like that who can think for themselves, rather than being go along types, i.e., mugs and suckers. The Americans also backed Pol Pot and got him to invade Vietnam after the USA left. The UK backed him too. That also cost huge numbers of lives. The killing fields etc. P.P.S. Cuba's revolution was similar. Castro was not a Marxist at first. It was also a war of independence and national liberation against colonialism. Allying with the USSR was the only way they saw of preventing a US invasion. A rational concern, because the Americans have never stopped planning invasions of Cuba. The most recent plan was within the last ten years hoping to take advantage of the death of Castro. It was going to be a so called humanitarian intervention. Yes, the USA was looking to invade Cuba during the 2010s. Sanctions and blockade has not forced the Cubans to overthrow the government as the USA hoped for. The Americans instead relied upon dozens of assassination attempts, coup plots, and invasion plans. Why does the USA think it has the right to meddle like this? Who appointed them ruler of the world? Nobody but themselves. Yankee go home.
Finland and two separate cases for WW2 of the "cone guards" or "forest guards" (as they were called) as often those deserting hid in the forests. During the Winter War desertion was rather rare - as the war was seen as fully defensive war. However during the Continuation War (and the Lapland War which started immediately after) around 1 500 avoided the draft. Altogether around 32 200 cases of desertion went to the military courts. However this not the same as conscientious objecting as these include war weariness, fear, and similar (even getting lost). Of the around 32 200 cases around 50% were deemed to have been desertions. Some of the deserters were however COs. Given the conscript training system in Finland most of them had some level of military training - many even had experience from serving at the front. This meant that in some cases the "cone guards" build whole complexes systems of dugouts (korsu), trenches, and lookout posts into some forest they knew like the back of their hands.
Really enjoy the series; IIRC coal miners in the UK where not exempt from conscription at the outbreak of the War, which lead to a percentage of conscripts, the "Bevin Boys" been sent to the mines later in the War.
Per the microfilmed draft registration lists from the Selective Service that I helped process for the National Archives a few years ago, a total of 40 million Americans registered for the draft from 1940 to 1947.
In "neutral" Spain in 1938 those of ages 16 onwards were conscripted to fill the ranks during the civil war, however they were kept in service until they reached age 22 (that is, in 1944). These conscripts were known as the "Quinta del Biberón" (feeding bottle draft), as the officers said they were as young as to "be still drinking milk from a feeding bottle".
My father was in the first draft group. He reported for service in January 1941 for one year. On December 6th, he was on a ship heading out to an unknown pacific destination. The next day, they returned. He spent two years in Iceland and the rumor was that they would take a troop ship to Scotland and return home on the Queen Mary. When they got to Scotland, there was the Queen Mary. There was a formation and a speech from a senior officer and they were told that they would be getting an extra $25 a month in pay. They all cheered. Then he said that from that day forward they were all paratroopers. No cheering. His unit was attached to the 101st airborne as glider troopers. He was at Bastogne and saw the fall of Germany. He was discharged on August 6th. I often wonder what my future would have been if the Japanese had decided to attack in the spring? He might have been sent to the Philippines . .
I was allways annoyed by the inscription on the "animals at war" memorial in London. "THEY didn't have a choice" on a memorial to two wars fought by conscripts.
It’d be interesting if you covered the Minnesota Starvation Experiment which was conducted on COs by Ancel Keys. Todd Tucker’s book on the subject is great.
This sounds like a great question for Out of the Foxholes. You can submit it as a question through our Community Forum right here: https//community.timeghost.tv/c/Out-of-the-Foxholes-Qs We go though all submissions before every OOTF episode and make a selection of the most interesting ones.
Wow this video was really interesting. I love the fact that you guys cover other topics than just the standard "there was a war, people fought". Coming from Canada, we've got our own history of conscription crises both in WW1 and WW2. Both cases displayed the political tension between the French and English peoples in the country. The conscription crisis was also somewhat of a call to arms for those in favour of the British empire and those who were not. I wonder if this was the case in other commonwealth countries (if they even had other conscription policies) like Australia or India. What (if any) sort of political divisions resulted from conscription calls and did any of them further divide nations or have any other major impacts? Man I sure hope I didn't say anything wrong here lol.
Consciption was a huge issue in Australia in WW1 (there were two national "no" votes against it, and Australia was the only country to have an all-volunteer army throughout the the entire war). In WW2, conscription was introduced after Japan came south. It never became as controversial, possibly because draftees could only be sent to Australia and it territories (this included New Guinea however, where there was much fighting). After WW2 was peacetime conscription (National Service), and eventually conscription for the Vietnam War, which was controversial.
As someone who has been conscripted and served in peacetime I would like to ask the following questions regarding the conscription system during the war, in the UK and the USA. 1. Was there a specific duration ? Were they discharged after a specific period or they stayed in the army until the end of the war.(or until they get killed or seriously wounded) Were there any privates that served from. 1939 until the end in 1945? I know that the crews of the US bombers were discharged after a number of missions. Did this apply to other corps as well? 2. Were the conscripts entitled to some days of annual leave of absense? How many? 3. Did they get paid and how much? In case they had a family what was the income source of their family since they had quit their jobs to join the army? Was their employee obliged to pay a part of their salary? 4. In case of KIA or MIA, had their family the right on any pension or allowance?
As far as I know in the UK: 1. You were conscripted 'for the duration' of the war. So yes you could serve 1939-45. 2. Conscripts got the same leave as any other serviceman. But home leave wasn't always possible. If you served in North Africa/Burma etc, you were not getting home leave (unless your unit was reassigned back to the UK). My uncle was in the UK Army pre-war and served in Palestine from 1938. He got his first home leave in 1944. 3. They got paid the same as a regular of whatever unit they were in. That would of been the families income source (but the wife probably worked too). No their employer did not have to pay any salary when conscripted. 4. Yes, they were allowed the standard pension (widows pension etc) if killed in combat. And it wasn't much at all. Please correct me if I am wrong on anything.
In the US people generally served for the war's duration, whether conscripted or volunteer. The Marines however had a policy of rotating men stateside after they had participated in three major battles. Sledge talks a bit about that in his memoir With the Old Breed at Peleliu and Okinawa, with the Guadalcanal veterans being relieved that they wouldn't be participating in the invasion of Okinawa. The Guadalcanal veterans that were still around had also survived Cape Gloucester & Peleliu. Sledge of course, who had first saw action at Peleliu, had no such luck. Sledge would have also participated in the landings on Kyushu if Japan hadn't surrendered. I'm not certain if the Army had the same policy for it's units that participated in the fighting in the Pacific. Normally men in the service are entitled to X amount of days of leave annually, but that is always subject to the demands of the service. It can be reliably counted on during peace time but not during war. Some men might get leave when their unit was in Australia or Britain to rest and refit or some units that had been rotated off the line in Europe might give men weekend passes to go to Paris or something of that sort, but there were no flights back home. Aside from pilots or rear echelon types a soldier was unlikely to see Paris more than once, if it all. It wouldn't have been a common or regular thing, though they would have had time off in Britain and Australia. (hence the "meme" about the problem with U.S. troops being that they were overpaid, oversexed, and over here)
USAAF aircrew were not discharged after a tour, they were assigned others duties, usually training which was almost as dangerous. The number of missions for Bomber Command was much higher and in the case of the Pathfinders even higher. GI life insurance was 10,000 USD. Britain had a similar program. As I understand it.
@@korbell1089 Well in the UK 'for the duration' didn't mean you got to leave the day the war ended. Some conscripts were still serving occupation duties in 1946. But there wasn't a limit set in stone. Basically the longer you served you got demobbed first.
This made me think. I have been a pacifist all my life and when I got my conscription here in Austria I was willing to do the alternative service, though they deemed me unfit after all. But how would I have acted in these days? With war going on and knowing that the enemy regimes are unjust and probably murderous (as they were). Would I have objected, tried to dodge the draft? Would I have volunteered for a "behind the lines" duty? I cannot say and I am glad to live in peaceful times in a country that is not involved in any of todays military conflicts.
If I had been conscripted for Vietnam, I decided that I would trust my government and go. Fortunately my government had more sense than me and didn't buckle to US pressure.
It’s amazing how values change on this subject. In ww1 Australia had 2 referendums to implement conscription it failed and Australia remained the only nation with a purely volunteer force. A major reason for this is John curtain who rallied and railed against it. Spouting it was immoral and wrong. In ww2 John curtain was prime minister and the first thing he did was bring in conscription. Like a typical coward had no issues forcing others into service when he had fought against it when he was liable for service.
The majority of voters were against conscription in Australia in WW1. There wasn't a plebiscite on conscription in Australia in WW2 but it would have had greater public support, considering both lower casualty rates and the more direct threat to Australia. So Curtin was not a total hypocrite (circumstances had changed) and he also only conscripted people for service in Australia and its territories (though this was extended later to include the SW Pacific area).
Pig Iron Bob started conscription in September of 39. Curtin extended Pig Irons definition of what constituted Australian territory in 1943. Please try to get basic facts right.
Arguably WW1 wasn't Australia's fight. Additionally the incompetence of British military leadership with its propensity for high casualty rates quickly became apparent, and for Australia, with a small population this was a serious issue WW2 clearly was an Australian fight, the homeland was being bombed. British military leadership however, had improved little.
@@jimgraham6722 There is evidence that Grey felt empowered by an early statement of war support by Australia and New Zealand. Certainly the Australian Gov was keen for war as "proof" of our nationhood.
It's amazing how values change when a country finds itself in a theater of war facing an expansionist aggressor. The British were understandably focused on Europe and couldn't spare much to halt the Japanese in the Pacific War when that got added to the already overloaded British to-do list in late 1941. For Australia and NZ to survive as nations (or quasi-nations) it was going to come down to teaming up with the Americans. Looking serious to the Americans may have been a factor lurking in the background as the Anzacs mobilized. If you're going to make your countries a staging area for hordes of US forces en route to fight the Japanese it's probably good to show you're raising your own troops too. In the end it all worked out, but a lot of people had to die to make that happen.
Military service was not on my radar. I had registered for the draft when I turned 18 and promptly forgot about it. I was called for a draft physical during the early Vietnam war. It seemed that if you could walk into the exam that you would pass the physical . The intelligence test consisted of 100 picture questions. Each question had 4 pictures - like a hammer, a screw, a nail, and a saw. You had to match to two that went together. You need about 20 correct to pass. Rocket science not needed.
Nowadays MEPCOM requires a bare minimum highschool to first year college level maths, english, and general science knowledge, also a bit of automotive knowledge mixed in with mechanical engineering. Yeah not rocket science, still easy - just tedious as all hell.
Great video as always! Maybe you could do a special on the psychological troubles and trauma of the soldiers fighting in ww2? I think it would bring much needed perspective into the hardships of being a soldier outside of the "on the face" problems. Keep up the good work!
A correction, conscription in Britain lasted until 1960, and longer in the US, because of the Cold War. My paternal grandfather was called up in 1940, and my father avoided his National Service intake in 1958 because he was in training to be a Chartered Surveyor.
You don t need to do it. The process was the following: Conscriptor: congratulations. You are selected to serve your country. Conscripted: I object. Conscriptor: shoot him.
Nice to see Donald Swann, later one half of the comedy song duo Flanders and Swann, writers and performers of a range of songs including 'The Hippopotamus Song' - the origin of the lines 'Mud, Mud, Glorious Mud'
It bugs me that Canada is always left out of episodes like this. This would have been a perfect opportunity to talk about the french canadian/english canadian conflict that arose over the draft.
Should be an episode in itself -- for the Canadians made major, I mean major, combat contributions to the war throughout the European and Mediterranean theaters. They had their "own" beach -- Juno, I believe -- during the Normandy invasion, for one thing. And they later had the miserable, dangerous task of clearing the waterways to the sea so that Antwerp could be used as a port. Bugs this retired guy in the U.S., too!
It was a much bigger problem during WWI, with the Conscription Crisis of 1917. Yes, conscription was eventually reintroduced during WWII, but it wasn't as big an issue as it had been a quarter century earlier.
@@johnc2438 Juno Beach was the second bloodiest battle on D-Day, after the one on nearby Omaha Beach. The Canadians also advanced the furthest of the Allied forces on that day. D-Day was a success because of the sacrifices Canadian soldiers made during the failed Dieppe Raid, which occurs this month in 1942. The lessons learned from Dieppe were then applied into the planning for Operation Overlord (D-Day).
"The basis for parliamentary unity had in fact been laid in March, when both major parties accepted a program rejecting conscription for overseas service. King clearly envisaged a limited effort and was lukewarm towards an expeditionary force." Canadian Encyclopedia Second World War, on line
@@Gameflyer001The Dieppe raid was over represented by Canadians. One of my mom's uncle and one cousin were casualties at Dunkirk, one died and one wounded.
Since you are talking about Conscientious Objectors, when the time comes, will you be doing a biographical special about Desmond Doss, Franz Jägerstätter, and/or others who either made an impact or whose story is known but could represent a larger group who have now remained nameless to history?
If this channel suvives another two or three years (crossing my fingers although that cannot affect the odds) I suspect we'll be hearing about Desmond Doss.
Every Canadian serving overseas in that war was a volunteer. Every man at Dieppe, at Normandy, at Ortona; during the invasions of France, Sicily, Italy, Netherlands, and Germany; in the Battle of the Atlantic, and the Battle of Britain - every fighting man overseas - volunteered to be there. Canadians should be proud.
Not just French Canadians too. Conscription was very unpopular in Quebec and the Prime Minister, MacKenzie King was wary of it. His famous quote during a 1942 plebiscite on the issue was, "Conscription if necessary, but not necessarily conscription."
@@gregwalker1913 which makes no sense since it’s not like Britain and France were enemies in the war, shouldn’t both communities have supported the war effort?
@@TheLocalLt I think it was mostly conflict between the British-Canadians and the French-Canadians. I've heard just enough about the conflict to know it's -- complicated.
My grandad Klotz tried to join the US Navy right after Pearl Harbor and was rejected and told he would "NEVER" serve in the US Navy. A few months later he gets a draft notice for the Army. He is in the enlistment line in Philadelphia and there is a Navy recruiter going up and down the line looking for engineers. My grandfather was studying at Drexel U. for Civil Engineering at the time and had surveyed for a summer at a CCC Camp. He was selected out of the line and enlisted into the US Navy in a Construction Battalion (SEABEE).
When I was called for the draft, I decided to enlist and gain a little control over my destiny. I joined US Army intelligence figuring that my life would be easier, the work would be important, and the training would be useful. All proved to be true. One month after I was discharged I started work with IBM. The cost was 2 extra years in the service.
Jersey Bob Did you also have to score high on the proficency tests to be allowed into the Intelligence service? As I understand it roles were assigned based on the "Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery" and if you scored high enough you could get to the Intelligence service.
@@earlyriser8998 Yes. The Army Security Agency required that you be in the top 10% of all the folks entering the Army. Only 3 out of the 10 actually made it. The other 7 didn’t volunteer or couldn’t get a security clearance. We called it a “A club for the top 10%”.
@@SandfordSmythe I’m not as smart as you make me out. When I enlisted you could pick a unit (intelligence) or a location (Europe) or a job. I wanted computers since I had training from RCA. Nothing in computers was available at that time. I picked intelligence and the recruiter said they would put me into computers. NOT! My job was important but totally boring and had no civilian application. I lucked out. My job’s mission was transferred to the Air Force and I got into computers. Had I planned ahead, I could have gotten in computers directly.
@@jerseybob4471 I knew someone who had HS Vocational Training in Aircraft Maintenance. He could have had his choice of his military career with good plans for a post-military career in his aircraft oriented home town, He did nothing and was drafted into the infantry. He came back with a bad case of PTSD.
I'd be interested to hear whether draft dodging was a widespread phenomenon either in the UK or US, using connections to be deemed exempted or to get into some non combat role. I had uncles who worked the mines, the land, or were imprisoned due to objecting according to their religious beliefs.
It definitely happened and it definitely resulted you going to prison. Prison not jail. The Selective Service kept track of those sent to Federal prison.
It really wasn't much of a thing during WWII, although it did happen. No doubt there were a few people well enough connected to remain out of the draft, but millions were drafted and only about 5000 ended up in prison over it.
It was a different time. My grandfather told me stories that if you were of draft age and walked down the street strangers would stop you and pointedly ask why you weren't in uniform.
where's your drink Indy? ever tried a jam donut? i'm rusty on the order, i think wet the rim with an orange and dip in sugar, then baileys, then chambord (or i got those in the wrong order) over the back of a spoon slowly to keep them separated... delicious, but not for sipping :)
I always listen to this on 1.5x bc I like how Indy talks at that speed. This episode came up at normal speed and it sounds like he’s talking in slow motion 😂 😂
The "Ack Ack Girls", British ATS attached to the Royal Artillery who staffed the gun directors, height and range finders for the Heavy Anti Aircraft batteries defending Great Britain deserve a mention. Their battle stations were within shouting distance of the guns. Over 360 were killed in action. Major-General Sir Frederick Pile, General Officer Commanding-in-Chief Anti Aircraft Command wrote after the war "The girls lived like men, fought like men and, alas, some of them died like men.”
A friend of mine claimed conscientious objector status during the Vietnam war. It was denied since his denomination was not pacifist. He went to Canada. At the time, I was disappointed. He became a missionary in South America. He was the real deal.
If he was the *real deal* he'd of become a missionary in NON-Christian lands. He's not doing Gods work, he shirked his duty to his nation, now he's poaching the Lords sheep from another Shepard's flock. Shameful.
My grandfather had a limp from being drug by horses when he was a kid. He told me he never thought he'd be thankful for that. His brother-in-law was a Carpenter, and the army had him driving a bulldozer and building airfields. He said the only Germans he saw were POWs, and for him it was a paid vacation to France and the best time of his life. My mom's boss was a marine in the Pacific. He did not have a good time.
Lew Ayres star of All Quiet on the Western Front and the Dr. Kildare series served as a conscientious objector non-combat medic in the Pacific. He served with distinction.
In 1941, in the US, my father was facing being drafted into the Army. Having heard the horror stories of the trenches in France from his uncles, Dad decided to join the US Coast Guard. Living on Long Island Sound, he figured that he would be guarding from Boston to New York. WRONG! He ended up on an attack transport, crossed the Atlantic six times, and participated in seven landings in the ETO. My father was an Eagle Scout. He found the transition to the USCG very easy and made rank quickly. At the same time there were many, young men, who had worked in the Civilian Conservation Corps. The CCC was run like a military outfit so, most of those men had an easy transition too. I really enjoy the high quality of your videos and your sense of humor. My congratulations to your entire team. Good Luck, Rick
He's only relevant quite a bit later in the war (we're still in 1942). Plus, the man was amazing but he already has a whole documentary and Hollywood film devoted to him, this video was more about highlighting the system of conscription that created men like Doss.
During the WWI almost all Quakers refused conscription due to anti war believes and viewed it as an unjust conflict. However during the US Civil War and WWII there were many Quakers who enlisted or accepted their draft into the war. This was because of their beliefs of fighting injustice and immorality from the opposing side. Ending the evils of slavery in the Civil War and ending the atrocities committed by the Axis powers. This did cause some division within some Quaker communities, but it was ultimately up to the individual's calling, whether to serve or not.
My Great, great Uncle was conscripted and, in 1942, was sent from New Zealand all the way to Egypt as a driver. Within a few months of landing in Italy, he was captured and shortly afterwards died in a POW camp near Rome at the age of twenty two, presumed to be of sickness. His war lasted a year and three days from departure from New Zealand. He accomplished no great deeds and his death was unremarkable. He was just one of millions of young men called up to fight and ultimately die in this conflict. The saddest part is that no one in the family spoke about him (probably because he died a captive) and we're now estranged from my grandfather's side of the family. We only found out a few years ago about him which was poor timing as I'd just been in Rome. My Mum got to visit his grave in 2018 though.
more research needed ... Not every Quaker in the UK was a C.O., it depended on their individual conscience ... In 1944, my step-grandfather was conscripted to the coal-mines of NE England, we needed the energy for arms manufacture. Some C.O. formed co-operatives in Essex to farm - look at Adelphi in Langham and the Frating Hall Farm Society.
My grandfather didn't agree with killing either. He was training to be a Methodist minister at the time. But he still served his country stateside in uniform. He was an x-ray technician who patched up a lot of your grandfathers after the Battle of the Bulge.
My Great-Uncle, as a farm worker, was in a protected profession. He was given the job training Land Girls. I don’t think you mentioned the “Bevan’s Boys”, young conscripts in Britain who were called up but were sent to work in the coal mines or munitions factories rather than the Armed Forces.
The Bevan Boys often had it doubly bad because though conscripted and unable to shift employment voluntarily or to join up (as they are already in “the forces”) but were often assumed to be conscientious objectors or to be seeking work in reserved occupations to avoid conscription by the communities they were living in.
I am 56 years old and I vividly remember a TV movie from 1974 called "The Execution of Private Slovak". It was based on a true story and starred Martin Sheen. You can find the movie on YT and other places. He was the first American military person executed for desertion since the Civil War. In the movie he is not a CO he simply can't stand the stress of being under shell fire and he repeatedly flees from fire. The army warns him repeatedly but he thinks he will at most do some time at levenworth prison. Tragically he is executed by an American firing squad. But Indy this video of yours did remind me of poor Private Slovak.
Conscription - the government not feeling content enough in its entitlement to the product of your labour deciding it is entitled to your body. And the slap in the face being how little they compensate for the (mis)use of it and/or the damage done to it.
A couple of years ago, I went on a trip to Glacier National Park and noticed that there were many Mennonites there. When I asked the guide, he said many of their families worked to build the park as part of their alternative service when they were drafted and the families still retain their connection to the park.
Neat seeing Camino and Placerville featured in the photos of the CPS camps. Certainly an essential service to the country in a time of war or peacetime.
Depends on which nation you are residing in, I think. If your country is engaged in a life and death struggle with an enemy he11-bent on your complete @nnihilation, you would either be in the war effort voluntarily, involuntarily, as penal labour, or be executed.
If correctable to 20/20 your probably in the A2 or B category. Sniper and fighter pilot are out but the poor bloody infantry or bomber command will take you.
@@davidwright7193 ah shiiieeeet... Can I at least join artillery or some logistics company? Or armored division as a tanker or something? Irly dont wanna be infantry...😌
In the modern military you still have plenty of people that serve without perfect eyesight. So long as it is corrected to 20/20 with glasses & people are still able to pass their rifle qualification, they're in.
@@ivvan497 probably so long as they can’t fill their ranks with A1 candidates. You could always volunteer before being drafted that puts you above the conscripts when it comes to getting your preferred branch. My grandfather volunteered out of school because that way he could make RAF aircrew where as if he was drafted he would probably have ended up in the army maintaining tanks or similar as he was coming out of a technical school.
The British were easier on conscientious objectors in WW2 than in WW1 - in the earlier conflict their treatment amounted to persecution, and quite a few died or were killed in jail.
@@duke9555 Sure but there are different circles and extremities of hell, if Dante is to be believed. The British shot over 300 of their servicemen for desertion or cowardice in WW1. This later became controversial and they shot none in WW2, as far as I am aware.
@@duke9555 "Why this is hell, nor am I out of it" - Mephistopheles, in "Doctor Faustus", written by a man under investigation for atheism at the time of his mysterious death. "Come, I think hell's a fable." "Ay, think so still, till experience change thy mind."
Since we are on this subject. Can you cover Jennette Rankin? She was the only member of congress to vote NO to war, after the Pearl Harbor attack. She is very often overlooked. I'd like to see a special about her.
During both the 1st and 2nd World Wars, South Africa had only voluntary military service as a large proportion of the Afrikaans population still had hatred for the English.
There was a comparatively large number of South African POWs in German or Italian hands, with a particularly large mass surrender at Tobruk, and they were sometimes seen as a weak link by other Empire contingents, although the most pro-Axis South Africans were interned during the war and went nowhere near the armed forces.
@@jaakkosaha5787 How exactly? Are training times 'faster' in conscription based military? I'm quite curious since my country's military adopted a voluntary service system.
From October 1943 in the UK i in 10 conscripts were sent to the coal mines, regardless of their desires, a number was drawn each month in the ministry of labour and anyone whose National Service numbers ended with the number drawn went to the coal mines, there was an appeal process but few were upheld, refusal to go down the pits meant prison. The "Bevin Boys" (named after the minister of Labour Ernest Bevin) had a hard time, even when on leave, as they had no uniform so were looked on with suspicion anyone that didnt know they were now miners. They were not eligible for any service medal (as everyone who put on a uniform was) or eligible for the Demob grant available to servicemen, they were not recognised until a veterans badge was instituted in 2007. Some notable Bevin Boys: Stanley Baker - Actor fanous for playing Lt Chard in "Zulu" Eric Morcombe - Comedian nat Lofthouse - Footballer 33 caps for England
When asked about the medical exam he was given following his drafting in 1942, a man of my acquaintance said, "The only thing they did was count your eyes."
You know, the obvious guy to come up when objectors are discussed is Desmond Doss. I don't know how accurate the movie made about him is in terms of dialogue but I see it as really weird when in the movie, his squadmates call him a "coward" for not being willing to handle firearms, despite him making it clear he still wants to serve as a medic on the frontlines, just without being armed. Like, this guy has basically stated that he's willing to be put in the middle of a firefight, unarmed, to save their lives. To me, that makes him more heroic than they are.
@Chris Benson some people just don't have it in them to hurt other people. I do, but years of people hurting me has made me in to a person happy to use violence for my own reasons. 8 years in prison off and on has made me more than comfortable with it. But some folks are gentle. We need more of them in the world and less of me.
My Father was an Army recruiter in Asheville NC when Pearl Harbor was bombed. The following Monday, men were lined up outside his office eight abreast for over eight blocks. It was like that for 2+ weeks. Very few CO in western NC. In fact, many individuals who were not eligible to enlistment tried to cheat to enter service.
Made me curious about the case in Finland but I wasn't able to find much information. Military service was compulsary in Finland until a man by the name of Pekurinen refused and was imprisoned and terrorized by a nationalist group as a consequence. International requests/pressure led to Finland introducing the first forms of "civil service" for those who would refuse to go the the military. However this was all pre-war and didn't apply in wartime. Pekurinen was imprisoned again in 1939 for refusing to take part in the winter war and was later executed in the field without trial in 1941 for his refusals. Perhaps that's some indication that getting out of Finnish service during WW2 wasn't much of an option and that's why I can't find any information.
Excellent presentation and very informative! Thank you for all the hard work and time that you devote to all these videos. I really enjoy the weekly summary of World War II that you are doing now; just as I really enjoyed your examination of The Great War as it revealed so much information about the conflict that I didn't know before the video series. Thank you again!
my dad had a heart murmur and was disqualified from serving in the armed forces .....so he spent the war in the arctic building oil pipelines....the pictures of him with a 100 lb back pack in the Canadian mountains suggest the heart murmur wasn't as bad as they thought. He did die of a bad heart valve.... 40 years later. Four uncles served and three survived the war but I think all four were volunteers.
In fighting a total war, ordinary people must sacrifice many of the freedoms they enjoy. For the most part, young men and women like Percy see this as necessary in order to defend their homes, families, and way of life. I'm sure there are many of us in the Timeghost community who are a similar age to Percy; on the whole, we are fortunate now to live in a world where such sacrifices are no longer necessary. Researching this episode made me think if a similar scenario were to occur today, would our generation be willing to go through the same trials as our predecessors?
Make sure to check out our new series, Timeghost Shorts, over on the Timeghost History Channel: th-cam.com/users/TimeGhostvideos
Cheers,
James
We always welcome comments and discussion, but please familiarise yourself with our rules of conduct before doing so: community.timeghost.tv/t/rules-of-conduct/4518
I fear that the next World War will bring up the issue again with terrible consequences........
The most interesting might be a U.S. marine(?) who was a combat medic. He refused to carry a weapon, saved lots of peoples lives, got a medal.
Individual biographies of common soldiers or even generals seems to be a neglected topic among WW2 history on youtube. You might try to exploit that niche? It's nothing I need or desire to see, just an angle on history which you might enjoy and which also might garner you more viewers since it really seems to be ignored by existing channels.
Corporations say they don't want taxes. What stopped them from using tax havens in WWII?
I just read a few things about the "project 100 000" today, so seeing that the % of unfit decreased over the years in ww2 makes me wonder if there was some kind of organized program for those who served while they shouldn't have been drafted in the first place during ww2 ?
@@QuizmasterLaw you're probably referring to Desmond Doss : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Doss
Telling Stalin you're a conscientious objector sounds like a good way to get put in a non-combative role, like clearing minefields, by running across them.
Honestly, who could blame him??
If an army of genocidal maniacs were invading my country looking to exterminate me and everyone like me I'd have a hard time taking anyone who says "I don't want to fight" seriously.
No one wants fight, comrade, but it's either fight or die.
Edit: notice I forgot a "to" in the previous comment, but it sounds more "russian speaking broken english" if I leave it out, so fuck it; feels appropriate.
Isaac, the key to sounding like a Russian speaking English is to not use definite or indefinite articles (the, an, a) as those don't exist in the Russian language. Just a tip for you.
@@isaacsorrels4077 Yeah, not like Russians would themselves invade and occupy other countries, murder and deport some of its population, then forcefully conscript even more of these people into red army when Germans invade them.
"No one wants fight, comrade, but it's either fight or die." Tell that to the people who still to this day try and paint some countries or its people as "nazis" or "nazi collaborators", because they had their men also conscripted to German waffen ss to fight their countrymen who were conscripted to red army. It WAS a "fight or die" choice, but the "fight" part wasnt some kind of heroic patriotic duty for many, it was a forced "choice" for probably most on the eastern front. You CAN blame stalin, just like you can blame hitler for all of this. If it wasnt for them 2 playing buddies at first, neither would have seen it as easy to wage war in Europe and try divide it between themselves. Calling the millions of soldiers who had to die for both of these evil genocidal maniacs, genocidal maniacs themselves does no justice to the people who quite literally had just the choice "fight or die". Die on the front wearing uniform of either regime, die trying to flee to another neutral country not yet part of the war, die trying to hide your family in the woods, die trying to protect your house from being burned down by either germans looking for supplies or soviets trying to deny these supplies for them.. Didnt even matter if you chose, stalin and hitler made the choice for you. They ARE to be blamed for it. All these people died and they didnt die for some "greater good", they died because 2 genocidal maniacs were willing to have millions die for their need for power.
@@itsKarlDesigns well put especially the last sentence. Which is why the concept of Consciousness Objection is a valid ideal. The politician who says “follow me and I’ll lead you to glory while we kill these people over there” is the person who should always be viewed with a great deal of suspicion. Instead, people seem to fall in line. Here in the West we always bring up WW2 as the big example of whether you fight or don’t fight. How many wars in the 20th century fit that description? None except WW2. The rest were brutality to protect the financial interests of a few. It is difficult to say you won’t be a part of the machine when the pressure from thugs is threatening you and family. But if you are going to be killed anyway why go down aiding the criminal who is going to hurt you eventually?
@@isaacsorrels4077 That doesn't really explain the hundreds of thousands of Russians that fought with the Germans, either as volunteers, partisans or prisoners of war opting for military service rather than slave labor camps. It's not always so clear. For myself, I would consider anyone that threatened my life to be an enemy, and that would certainly include my officers.
My grandfather's remarks on military fitness tests for WWII, "Two doctors looked in your ears at the same time. If they didn't see each other, you passed."
The American Monk and author Thomas Merton spoke of this...he was classified as unfit...then later classified as fit...
If they saw each other they made you an officer.
So that's how Trump dodged the draft. Here I was thinking it was bone spurs.
During the Korean War it was said that a South Korean medical for potential recruits consisted of holding a mirror in front of the inductee's face. If steam appeared on the mirror he was still alive and so was given a uniform and a rifle.
@@danielmocsny5066 Trumps over. Find someone new to hate. BTW, where did Hidin' Biden' serve?
My father volunteered for the marines in WWII. Being 15 years olds, with a doctored birth certificate, did not seem to disqualify him. Neither did the fact that he had polio, and had damaged back muscles. He put it as, "no one was looking too close at your papers, on purpose".
Your dad was a badass and a member of the Greatest Generation. We stand on the shoulders of giants.
Based
@@dtaylor10chuckufarle Hitler was part of that generation
@Douglas Farshtey Pervert?
@Douglas Farshtey Neo or Paleo ?
"And even the number of teeth required is reduced" - that quote surprised me.
Otherwise a few southern states might be exempt. Sorry, I couldn't resist.
That was my favorite comment. I can see the point, but the drawing of an arbitrary line is still funny. I wonder what those numbers were: how many teeth does an effective soldier need?
Vladek Spiegelman in "Maus" described how his father or grandfather had many teeth pulled so that he would not be conscripted into the Tsarist army. He himself underwent a starvation diet consisting mostly of herrings and coffee to avoid conscription into the Polish army, but the following year he did not want to go through the same process again and this time he was conscripted.
@@exeggcutertimur6091 racist
I knew an Italian man who pulled all his teeth to get out of fighting for the axis.
My grandpa was exempt. He owned a cheese factory in Wisconsin. I think this may have bothered him to some degree tho, as his brother was wounded and then evacuated from Corregidor in the Philippines. Incidentally, he missed the Bataan Death March by 2 weeks.
My great grandfather was also exempt as he ran a farm and had several children. Interestingly enough when the war was going German POWs were employed on his farm in southern Alabama. They actually built his barn that was still being used until the late 1980s.
What’s up fellow Iowan?
Hey, not his fault. 🤷♂️ Cant blame him. Seemed to have worked out for the best.
@@road_king_dude yea, better alive than dead.
@@erwin669 My dad knew a co-worker who surrender in North Africa as a Luftwaffe mechanic. He told my dad that he spent the rest of the War in Louisiana picking cotton.
The term we used in the Marines was you were " Voluntold " to do something.
Sound like in The UK .Seargent comes up to a group of soldiers and says can anyone play the piano if so come with me (takes them to the cookhouse or wherever).One of these days I will learn to spell.
the Marines had a proud culture of everyone was a volunteer....when they started drafting Marines the old guard was very upset.
Odd....the Army has that same term....
We use the same term in the American corporation I work for.
@@johnmccallum8512 LOL, I remember putting my hand up when one of our NCOs asked for people with drivers licenses. The job was driving a floor buffer and a mop.....
Don't forget the WACs. My grandmother was a nurse with Patton's 4th Army, including service during the Battle of the Bulge. She recalled that what truly frightened them was when they came around grabbing all the orderlies and clerks and giving them rifles. It had to be bad if they were doing that. She survived the war by many decades, but sadly died before I was born. I would've been privileged to have known her, and it has been a regret for my whole adult life.
Army nurses don't like to be called WACs
Just an FYI Mr. Kruger. It was the Third Army. The Third Army did have the 4th Armored Division serving in it. Try google search of her name and rank, you never know what comes up. You can also try to find her military record from the Department of Defenses.
The nurses, WACs, WAVEs, SPARs, etc in the US military were all-volunteer forces. The US military has never conscripted women (volunteer enlistments only).
Before they married, mommy served in the WACs in the Philippines.
Regretting something you had no part in is doing you no favors.
Fun fact about New Zealand, our Prime Minister who introduced conscription in WW2 was a conscientious objector in WW1.
Lmao
When my father, who had always been sickly and who died just seven years after the war, came home from his draft physical in 1942, he told my grandmother, 'Mama, Hitler must be winning the war. They just took me'.
My great grandfather was drafted into the us army when he was in his 30's and fought from Normandy, Northern France, The Ardennes, and Central Europe (Germany).
"oh and Guarnere, I'm not a Quaker."
Must be a mennonite...
@@gabrieljosephybanez6361 Apparently he was.
just watched the clip again yesterday by random ^^
@@gabrieljosephybanez6361 “What’s a Mennonite?”
Did something die in here?
Yeah, Malarkey's ass.
I was raised Quaker, and that meant I grew up around an American WWII conscientious objector. He spent the war doing alternative civilian service, and after the war was heavily involved in helping veterans and later helping people avoid the Vietnam War draft. He was quite consistent in his beliefs, spending his last years demonstrating against the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.
Its a pity everybody wasnt the same.. Inagine they had a War and no body turned up. Peace
How nice for your Quaker friend that so many sacrificed so much so that he can enjoy those rights.
@@gregryan7761 cringe
@@YAH2121What do you mean?
My dad missed wartime conscription by a few short months, turning 18 in september, but still conscripted and served 18 months on tidy/cleanup duty.
12:31 "even the number of teeth required is reduced"
I REALLY shouldnt laugh at that
I'm sure everyone laughed at that, so enjoy it!
I'm not certain why that was a requirement unless a loss of some teeth was seen as an indication that there might be other underlying health issues. It's not like their teeth would ever be used in combat.
@@lycaonpictus9662
Never know, things got pretty nasty in the Pacific.
But it's probably about being able to properly chew your food. Have to eat whatever you're given, no matter how tough its texture.
Interestingly conscription in WW1 meant many young men received dental treatment in the Army which due to then being able to eat properly, led to an improvement in their health.
I don’t think this video is long enough to go through them all but the confidence is admirable
This is probably just part one of a whole bunch
Agreed. I would liked to have seen them talk about Canada's conscription through the National Resources Mobilization Act. Perhaps a seperate episode could be done about that. I'm afraid to say that the discussion of Canada's role in WW2 has been non-existent so far, in contrast to discussion of our role in WW1.
@@will9605 Could be they are saving up Canadas contribution till the Dieppe Raid.... which will be next week!!
And you are right about the low level of appreciation of Canadas involvement in WWII..... all I can say now is "Thank You" and keep telling the other boomers just how much we owe to Canadians.
@@japeking1 Thank you so much! And good point about Dieppe! Not to brag but Canada had the third largest navy in the world at the end of the war. We shouldered a huge burden getting the convoys to England. And of course Halifax was a major departure point of allied convoys sailing to Europe. We also trained 130,000 Canadian and Commonwealth air crews through the Commonwealth Air Training Plan.
I was a CO in the Vietnam war. One of my mentors in pacifism was imprisoned in WWI, my other mentor was a CO in WWII and served in a forestry camp. I worked in a mental hospital. Most of the other male ward attendants were also COs.
respect from a German CO (paramedic)
I am a career officer. I have friends who are were CO's No problem. I do despise draft dodgers. I admired Cassis Clay
Choosing not to fight should always be a right in a democracy but as in the case of WWII after the Japanese attack a citizen should volunteer to serve in some capacity be it medic or other. You can't sit back and do nothing. Conciencous objectors can always find a way to serve honorably as long as they do serve. Those who dodged the draft or bought their way out should be so ashamed of themselves. Even a coward and that's a harsh term...can serve in some way. Women have always fought since ancient times and can be excellent soldiers. The only problem with be women in the army is the men who harass, rape or find some other way to make it a problem. There are women who have acted improperly and caused a "distraction" to the men but that is actually rare. Most men in uniform are full of to much testosterone and plain bs as and just can't act right. When I was in Germany in the 80s the female medic who went with our battery to the field was always protected with an escort with loaded 38! That was just rediculous that they thought she had to be guarded like that. It was only 30 days in the field and they worried some idiot could not wait to get back to post! By the way a true story hope no one is too offended by it, one guy in my unit had an inflatable woman he brought with him and rented it out for $5 a visit. I could not believe it was true but he always made a small fortune that way!!! Some guys are just kind of pathetic. That's why women have had such a hard time in the service.!
@@twhis9843 yea man, its your life, not theirs, let them talk what they want, putting an uniform and going to war for politics is not the only type of bravery out there.
@@r.g.o3879 lol inflatable woman, very pathetic indeed.
I bet those guys could rape a corpse if the opportunity appeared.
Fun fact a most notable ATS member was Queen Elizabeth the second
Yep. Royals played a pretty big role in the war. Check out our video on it th-cam.com/video/WcUCutHR9eo/w-d-xo.html
No armies, no sleevies Indy?
This is probably an apocryphal story, but when asked by a reporter during the Blitz if the young princesses would be evacuated, the Queen replied: "The girls will not leave unless I do. I shall not leave unless the King does. The King will not leave under any circumstances."
She is also the last sitting head of state to have served in WWII.
@@windwalker5765 she never satas head in ww2
I'm french. In my country the draft lasted since 1995. One of my colleagues is a conscientious objector and refuses to make his military service in the 80's. He had to do a civil service with other conscientious objectors. He told me that he expected to be with people with similar political opinions like his, but almost all of the pretended to be conscientious objectors just to avoid to crawl in the mud (the only part my colleague would have accepted).
One December 8th my father, who had learned to fly at university, volunteered to be a Navy pilot. During the interview the MD learned he was working at Boeing's Seattle plant and suggested he stay there. In the end he was declared physically unfit to be a pilot, having a punctured ear drum and went back to designing airplanes. Over the years his telling of the story varied between having a punctured ear drum and the doctor just used that as an excuse to keep him at Boeing
My Father was a draftsman-model maker for Curtis Wright, starting in 1939, when he was 19. On December 8, he went in to tell his boss he was quitting to go join the Army Air Corps. His boss looked him in the eye and told him, “Your not a slave, and I can’t prevent you from quitting. But, in case you haven’t figured it out yet, you are in a war critical job, and if you join the military, the only difference in where and how you work will be that you will have to wear a uniform, and will get paid considerably less money. Because quite frankly, your not going anywhere until I decide to release you for other duties.” Dad, decided he would stay a civilian for a while longer.
At 12:18 that guy bails out hard into the water 😆
Whenever i hear about conscientous objectors i always think about the movie Hacksaw Ridge. My god that movie is phenomenal.
I hope we'll get a special episode about the real man and story behind the movie.
A fantastic movie, and the cause of death of my pilsner glasses. Along with its accomplice, a basketball..
Long story short, my friends and I were watching it and having some beers, someone was messing with a basketball and looking at the screen, the ball bounced off a nearby object and landed on the table, shattering the freshly filled glasses.
Thankfully, not all of the beers were slain in the tragedy. The remainder were instead done in during the course of the film..
But yes, phenomenal movie!
In occupied Holland, young men were basically pressed ganged to "work" in Germany, just a notch above being slaves. This could be a topic to research for a similar movie.
To hear a down home, American boy using the term "lorries" was such an unexpected treat!
And congrats to Astrid for ensuring that you and Sparty are always so well turned out.
Respect, (as the young people say, I believe).
No one should ever use the term lorry, Brit or yank!
We'll call them lorries if our friends across the pond promise to spell Pearl Harbor correctly.
@@danielmocsny5066 Deal!
Why, thank you! Most appreciated.
My uncle was in a CO camp in Canada due to his beliefs. The camp doctor told him that he was not fit for service anyways. So he ran away from the camp, tried to enlist, and was rejected. So he got to go home.
My great uncle was a conscientious objector due to his religious beliefs. He served through the entire Italian campaign as a stretcher-bearer
My dad served in the Korean War. He always felt the CO medics were the bravest men in the army. They were on the front lines, unarmed, and constantly going out into the battle area.
Desmond Doss is probably the most famous of all conscientious objectors having won the US Medal of Honor during the battle for Okinawa. The Oscar winning movie made about his story in 2016, "Hacksaw Ridge" is a really good and a pretty historically accurate movie about his time in WW2 (things needed to be cut since a movie can only be so long). I highly recommend it for anyone who has not seen it yet.
I saw it, I am a veteran, I also acknowledge that if you are unable to kill another human it is not necessarily because of cowardice, 5% or so of humans cannot cross this threshold, the other threshold's are cannibalism and incest.
@@julesjules1079 Thank you for your service!
Doss was not scared to kill. It was just against his religion being a 7th day Adventist.
Doss actually volunteered to join WW2 and was not drafted. He already had a job that would have given him a deferment so that he didn't need to volunteer or worry about being drafted. But he choose to volunteer anyway because that is just the way people were back in the 1940's.
@Kistler Clipz I don't think Sgt York counts as a conscientious objector. While he started out as one he was convinced that it was ok for him to fight in WW1. Which resulted in his famous deeds during WW1.
@@PhillyPhanVinny Point taken, the difference being a conscious decision not to kill, as opposed to an inability, neither which make a man less, and concur re the way things were in the 1940's. A different time, age and value system....
Concientious objectors had a living hell in USSR and Germany. Whatever belief they had, they were no cowards to stand up for that. Some even did that, knowing it probably meant death.
Franz Jägerstätter was beheaded by the Nazis for conscientious objection.
I'm guessing it wasn't a living hell for long.
I think that is one reason Jehovah Witnesses were sent to concentration camps throughout Europe. Their religion prohibited lethal violence under any circumstances. Hence they became " useless eaters" under German rule, subject to extermination.
@@johnbroussard9480 yeah, and Franz Jägerstätter was a catolic. As individualls we may or may not have certain views on those peoples beliefs, but it took curage to stand in front of goverment officials and tell them you would not take up arms and knowing you may well die for that. It is a very interesting thing that this has actually helped to drive the views of what human rights means. It has forced countries, goverments and courts to really think about what is a basic human right and not. For example, the European Court of Human Rights has gone over these questions in numerous cases and set a legal standard for what human rights entail. Much of all this would have been slower to get started, or not happened at all, if those things had not come to a point during WW2. This is important because it can be very hard not to develope contemt towards those who kind of stand out from the norm. And when something happen - like a war, or just hard times, this can easily turn into hate. And what hate has done for humanity is easily seen in the Crimes Against Humanity series this channel make.
My grandfather was a truck driver and thus was exempted from the draft. Do any Americans here remember the freight line, “Red Ball”? That’s who he drove for.
I’ve met quite a few Vietnam Vets in my time, and for whatever reason, none of the vets I’ve talked to looked down upon the draft dodgers who went to prison. One fighter pilot told me “if they’re willing to stand up for their beliefs and go to prison for it, I’ve got no problem with him.” The same can’t be said for those who ran off to Canada, when I asked. The Vietnam vets have nothing but scorn for them. I do wonder what their WWII counterparts think about those who did everything in their power to avoid service.
The alternative to serve as a Medic was always open in the Vietnam War.
@@anarchopupgirl....... This person's profile speaks for itself haha.
Here in Canada We were quite happy to take the dodgers.
US troops were going to prop up a puppet government in the south that was an unstable and deeply unpopular dictatorship. Hardly a just and unavoidable war. I do not blame people for wanting nothing to do with it. Same goes for most of the US wars since WWII, e.g., Iraq etc. Foreign adventurism with very dubious justification, rather than a necessary fight like defeating fascism and its invasions in Europe was.
P.S. According to the CIA fact sheets, the communist government still has majority support there, but the war was not about political ideology to most of them. It was a war of independence, national liberation, and against colonial domination. It was against the French colonial masters at first. Given the US history of fighting against the British Empire for their independence, one would think they would have sympathy for the Vietnamese plight against colonialism and imperialism. Americans were told they were going to fight communism, but really they were going to fight trying to prevent Vietnam becoming a unified independent nation. No wonder it failed then.
In the process the Americans killed millions and more in Laos next door in the secret war (that was partly funded by plane loads of heroin imported from there to the USA and other western countries).
The USA also killed huge numbers there in the Phoenix Program. A CIA operation using death squads to liquidate opposition to the puppet regime in Saigon. A major war crime that is yet to be prosecuted. If a draft dodger was astute enough to see through war propaganda and understand what was really going on in Vietnam, then I applaud them. The world needs more people like that who can think for themselves, rather than being go along types, i.e., mugs and suckers.
The Americans also backed Pol Pot and got him to invade Vietnam after the USA left. The UK backed him too. That also cost huge numbers of lives. The killing fields etc.
P.P.S. Cuba's revolution was similar. Castro was not a Marxist at first. It was also a war of independence and national liberation against colonialism. Allying with the USSR was the only way they saw of preventing a US invasion. A rational concern, because the Americans have never stopped planning invasions of Cuba. The most recent plan was within the last ten years hoping to take advantage of the death of Castro. It was going to be a so called humanitarian intervention. Yes, the USA was looking to invade Cuba during the 2010s. Sanctions and blockade has not forced the Cubans to overthrow the government as the USA hoped for. The Americans instead relied upon dozens of assassination attempts, coup plots, and invasion plans. Why does the USA think it has the right to meddle like this? Who appointed them ruler of the world? Nobody but themselves. Yankee go home.
@@aquilarossa5191 Che' was not a nice guy.
Finland and two separate cases for WW2 of the "cone guards" or "forest guards" (as they were called) as often those deserting hid in the forests. During the Winter War desertion was rather rare - as the war was seen as fully defensive war. However during the Continuation War (and the Lapland War which started immediately after) around 1 500 avoided the draft. Altogether around 32 200 cases of desertion went to the military courts. However this not the same as conscientious objecting as these include war weariness, fear, and similar (even getting lost). Of the around 32 200 cases around 50% were deemed to have been desertions.
Some of the deserters were however COs. Given the conscript training system in Finland most of them had some level of military training - many even had experience from serving at the front. This meant that in some cases the "cone guards" build whole complexes systems of dugouts (korsu), trenches, and lookout posts into some forest they knew like the back of their hands.
Really enjoy the series; IIRC coal miners in the UK where not exempt from conscription at the outbreak of the War, which lead to a percentage of conscripts, the "Bevin Boys" been sent to the mines later in the War.
Per the microfilmed draft registration lists from the Selective Service that I helped process for the National Archives a few years ago, a total of 40 million Americans registered for the draft from 1940 to 1947.
That is absolutely clutch.... Thank you for adding that information.
In "neutral" Spain in 1938 those of ages 16 onwards were conscripted to fill the ranks during the civil war, however they were kept in service until they reached age 22 (that is, in 1944). These conscripts were known as the "Quinta del Biberón" (feeding bottle draft), as the officers said they were as young as to "be still drinking milk from a feeding bottle".
Not only forced-labor, but forced-child-labor. Despicable!
My father was in the first draft group. He reported for service in January 1941 for one year. On December 6th, he was on a ship heading out to an unknown pacific destination. The next day, they returned. He spent two years in Iceland and the rumor was that they would take a troop ship to Scotland and return home on the Queen Mary. When they got to Scotland, there was the Queen Mary. There was a formation and a speech from a senior officer and they were told that they would be getting an extra $25 a month in pay. They all cheered. Then he said that from that day forward they were all paratroopers. No cheering. His unit was attached to the 101st airborne as glider troopers. He was at Bastogne and saw the fall of Germany. He was discharged on August 6th.
I often wonder what my future would have been if the Japanese had decided to attack in the spring? He might have been sent to the Philippines . .
I was allways annoyed by the inscription on the "animals at war" memorial in London. "THEY didn't have a choice" on a memorial to two wars fought by conscripts.
GERMAN Rex by birth, BRITISH Soldier by choice🐈🐈🐈
Must admit I am so enjoying no only the weekly episodes you guys are producing, but these extras as well.
It’d be interesting if you covered the Minnesota Starvation Experiment which was conducted on COs by Ancel Keys. Todd Tucker’s book on the subject is great.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Starvation_Experiment
I was looking for that as well! Those men certainly did their part!
This sounds like a great question for Out of the Foxholes. You can submit it as a question through our Community Forum right here:
https//community.timeghost.tv/c/Out-of-the-Foxholes-Qs
We go though all submissions before every OOTF episode and make a selection of the most interesting ones.
Wow this video was really interesting. I love the fact that you guys cover other topics than just the standard "there was a war, people fought".
Coming from Canada, we've got our own history of conscription crises both in WW1 and WW2. Both cases displayed the political tension between the French and English peoples in the country. The conscription crisis was also somewhat of a call to arms for those in favour of the British empire and those who were not. I wonder if this was the case in other commonwealth countries (if they even had other conscription policies) like Australia or India. What (if any) sort of political divisions resulted from conscription calls and did any of them further divide nations or have any other major impacts?
Man I sure hope I didn't say anything wrong here lol.
Consciption was a huge issue in Australia in WW1 (there were two national "no" votes against it, and Australia was the only country to have an all-volunteer army throughout the the entire war). In WW2, conscription was introduced after Japan came south. It never became as controversial, possibly because draftees could only be sent to Australia and it territories (this included New Guinea however, where there was much fighting). After WW2 was peacetime conscription (National Service), and eventually conscription for the Vietnam War, which was controversial.
@@maddyg3208 Australia had conscription during WW1. The vote was about sending them overseas.
@@RandomStuff-he7lu Good point, sorry I got that wrong, I should have been clearer.
As someone who has been conscripted and served in peacetime I would like to ask the following questions regarding the conscription system during the war, in the UK and the USA.
1. Was there a specific duration ? Were they discharged after a specific period or they stayed in the army until the end of the war.(or until they get killed or seriously wounded) Were there any privates that served from. 1939 until the end in 1945? I know that the crews of the US bombers were discharged after a number of missions. Did this apply to other corps as well?
2. Were the conscripts entitled to some days of annual leave of absense? How many?
3. Did they get paid and how much? In case they had a family what was the income source of their family since they had quit their jobs to join the army? Was their employee obliged to pay a part of their salary?
4. In case of KIA or MIA, had their family the right on any pension or allowance?
As far as I know in the UK:
1. You were conscripted 'for the duration' of the war. So yes you could serve 1939-45.
2. Conscripts got the same leave as any other serviceman. But home leave wasn't always possible. If you served in North Africa/Burma etc, you were not getting home leave (unless your unit was reassigned back to the UK). My uncle was in the UK Army pre-war and served in Palestine from 1938. He got his first home leave in 1944.
3. They got paid the same as a regular of whatever unit they were in. That would of been the families income source (but the wife probably worked too). No their employer did not have to pay any salary when conscripted.
4. Yes, they were allowed the standard pension (widows pension etc) if killed in combat. And it wasn't much at all.
Please correct me if I am wrong on anything.
In the US people generally served for the war's duration, whether conscripted or volunteer.
The Marines however had a policy of rotating men stateside after they had participated in three major battles. Sledge talks a bit about that in his memoir With the Old Breed at Peleliu and Okinawa, with the Guadalcanal veterans being relieved that they wouldn't be participating in the invasion of Okinawa. The Guadalcanal veterans that were still around had also survived Cape Gloucester & Peleliu. Sledge of course, who had first saw action at Peleliu, had no such luck. Sledge would have also participated in the landings on Kyushu if Japan hadn't surrendered.
I'm not certain if the Army had the same policy for it's units that participated in the fighting in the Pacific.
Normally men in the service are entitled to X amount of days of leave annually, but that is always subject to the demands of the service. It can be reliably counted on during peace time but not during war. Some men might get leave when their unit was in Australia or Britain to rest and refit or some units that had been rotated off the line in Europe might give men weekend passes to go to Paris or something of that sort, but there were no flights back home. Aside from pilots or rear echelon types a soldier was unlikely to see Paris more than once, if it all. It wouldn't have been a common or regular thing, though they would have had time off in Britain and Australia. (hence the "meme" about the problem with U.S. troops being that they were overpaid, oversexed, and over here)
@@Davey-Boyd In the US, the term of service was for the duration of the war plus 6 months.
USAAF aircrew were not discharged after a tour, they were assigned others duties, usually training which was almost as dangerous. The number of missions for Bomber Command was much higher and in the case of the Pathfinders even higher.
GI life insurance was 10,000 USD. Britain had a similar program.
As I understand it.
@@korbell1089 Well in the UK 'for the duration' didn't mean you got to leave the day the war ended. Some conscripts were still serving occupation duties in 1946. But there wasn't a limit set in stone. Basically the longer you served you got demobbed first.
This made me think. I have been a pacifist all my life and when I got my conscription here in Austria I was willing to do the alternative service, though they deemed me unfit after all. But how would I have acted in these days? With war going on and knowing that the enemy regimes are unjust and probably murderous (as they were). Would I have objected, tried to dodge the draft? Would I have volunteered for a "behind the lines" duty?
I cannot say and I am glad to live in peaceful times in a country that is not involved in any of todays military conflicts.
If I had been conscripted for Vietnam, I decided that I would trust my government and go. Fortunately my government had more sense than me and didn't buckle to US pressure.
@@japeking1 one of the worst war to be a pawn in the politics game.
It’s amazing how values change on this subject. In ww1 Australia had 2 referendums to implement conscription it failed and Australia remained the only nation with a purely volunteer force. A major reason for this is John curtain who rallied and railed against it. Spouting it was immoral and wrong.
In ww2 John curtain was prime minister and the first thing he did was bring in conscription. Like a typical coward had no issues forcing others into service when he had fought against it when he was liable for service.
The majority of voters were against conscription in Australia in WW1. There wasn't a plebiscite on conscription in Australia in WW2 but it would have had greater public support, considering both lower casualty rates and the more direct threat to Australia. So Curtin was not a total hypocrite (circumstances had changed) and he also only conscripted people for service in Australia and its territories (though this was extended later to include the SW Pacific area).
Pig Iron Bob started conscription in September of 39. Curtin extended Pig Irons definition of what constituted Australian territory in 1943. Please try to get basic facts right.
Arguably WW1 wasn't Australia's fight. Additionally the incompetence of British military leadership with its propensity for high casualty rates quickly became apparent, and for Australia, with a small population this was a serious issue
WW2 clearly was an Australian fight, the homeland was being bombed. British military leadership however, had improved little.
@@jimgraham6722 There is evidence that Grey felt empowered by an early statement of war support by Australia and New Zealand. Certainly the Australian Gov was keen for war as "proof" of our nationhood.
It's amazing how values change when a country finds itself in a theater of war facing an expansionist aggressor. The British were understandably focused on Europe and couldn't spare much to halt the Japanese in the Pacific War when that got added to the already overloaded British to-do list in late 1941. For Australia and NZ to survive as nations (or quasi-nations) it was going to come down to teaming up with the Americans. Looking serious to the Americans may have been a factor lurking in the background as the Anzacs mobilized. If you're going to make your countries a staging area for hordes of US forces en route to fight the Japanese it's probably good to show you're raising your own troops too. In the end it all worked out, but a lot of people had to die to make that happen.
Military service was not on my radar. I had registered for the draft when I turned 18 and promptly forgot about it. I was called for a draft physical during the early Vietnam war. It seemed that if you could walk into the exam that you would pass the physical . The intelligence test consisted of 100 picture questions. Each question had 4 pictures - like a hammer, a screw, a nail, and a saw. You had to match to two that went together. You need about 20 correct to pass. Rocket science not needed.
Nowadays MEPCOM requires a bare minimum highschool to first year college level maths, english, and general science knowledge, also a bit of automotive knowledge mixed in with mechanical engineering.
Yeah not rocket science, still easy - just tedious as all hell.
I think the IQ has to be above 80. The tests are literally to weed out total retards, that is all.
Great video as always!
Maybe you could do a special on the psychological troubles and trauma of the soldiers fighting in ww2? I think it would bring much needed perspective into the hardships of being a soldier outside of the "on the face" problems.
Keep up the good work!
That's a very interesting idea. It's in the longlist and we'll probably cover it a bit later in the war. Thanks for the suggestion.
A correction, conscription in Britain lasted until 1960, and longer in the US, because of the Cold War. My paternal grandfather was called up in 1940, and my father avoided his National Service intake in 1958 because he was in training to be a Chartered Surveyor.
So will you cover conscription in countries like the USSR and Nazi Germany later?
We don't see why not. It's just a different story to the ones in Britain and America.
@@WorldWarTwo alright, good to know. Anyways, great video.
You don t need to do it. The process was the following:
Conscriptor: congratulations. You are selected to serve your country.
Conscripted: I object.
Conscriptor: shoot him.
@@georget8008 why waste ammo when you have concentration camps
@@kleinweichkleinweich The Japanese used bayonets to save ammo, skipped right past that pesky "internment" stage of dealing with dissidents.
Nice to see Donald Swann, later one half of the comedy song duo Flanders and Swann, writers and performers of a range of songs including 'The Hippopotamus Song' - the origin of the lines 'Mud, Mud, Glorious Mud'
It bugs me that Canada is always left out of episodes like this. This would have been a perfect opportunity to talk about the french canadian/english canadian conflict that arose over the draft.
Should be an episode in itself -- for the Canadians made major, I mean major, combat contributions to the war throughout the European and Mediterranean theaters. They had their "own" beach -- Juno, I believe -- during the Normandy invasion, for one thing. And they later had the miserable, dangerous task of clearing the waterways to the sea so that Antwerp could be used as a port. Bugs this retired guy in the U.S., too!
It was a much bigger problem during WWI, with the Conscription Crisis of 1917. Yes, conscription was eventually reintroduced during WWII, but it wasn't as big an issue as it had been a quarter century earlier.
@@johnc2438 Juno Beach was the second bloodiest battle on D-Day, after the one on nearby Omaha Beach. The Canadians also advanced the furthest of the Allied forces on that day. D-Day was a success because of the sacrifices Canadian soldiers made during the failed Dieppe Raid, which occurs this month in 1942. The lessons learned from Dieppe were then applied into the planning for Operation Overlord (D-Day).
"The basis for parliamentary unity had in fact been laid in March, when both major parties accepted a program rejecting conscription for overseas service. King clearly envisaged a limited effort and was lukewarm towards an expeditionary force."
Canadian Encyclopedia Second World War, on line
@@Gameflyer001The Dieppe raid was over represented by Canadians. One of my mom's uncle and one cousin were casualties at Dunkirk, one died and one wounded.
Since you are talking about Conscientious Objectors, when the time comes, will you be doing a biographical special about Desmond Doss, Franz Jägerstätter, and/or others who either made an impact or whose story is known but could represent a larger group who have now remained nameless to history?
The film, A Hidden Life, is about Jagerstatter. It's gotten great reviews.
If this channel suvives another two or three years (crossing my fingers although that cannot affect the odds) I suspect we'll be hearing about Desmond Doss.
Every Canadian serving overseas in that war was a volunteer.
Every man at Dieppe, at Normandy, at Ortona; during the invasions of France, Sicily, Italy, Netherlands, and Germany; in the Battle of the Atlantic, and the Battle of Britain - every fighting man overseas - volunteered to be there.
Canadians should be proud.
When you come to do other nations, the story of Canada's French-Canadian "Zombies" is interesting.
Do tell.
Not just French Canadians too.
Conscription was very unpopular in Quebec and the Prime Minister, MacKenzie King was wary of it. His famous quote during a 1942 plebiscite on the issue was, "Conscription if necessary, but not necessarily conscription."
@@gregwalker1913 which makes no sense since it’s not like Britain and France were enemies in the war, shouldn’t both communities have supported the war effort?
@@TheLocalLt I think it was mostly conflict between the British-Canadians and the French-Canadians. I've heard just enough about the conflict to know it's -- complicated.
Holy Hunger Games Batman! That scene with the draft lottery.
Not hunger games...survival games....and need 10 million young men to perform countless tasks with less than 1% at the actual front
My grandad Klotz tried to join the US Navy right after Pearl Harbor and was rejected and told he would "NEVER" serve in the US Navy. A few months later he gets a draft notice for the Army. He is in the enlistment line in Philadelphia and there is a Navy recruiter going up and down the line looking for engineers. My grandfather was studying at Drexel U. for Civil Engineering at the time and had surveyed for a summer at a CCC Camp. He was selected out of the line and enlisted into the US Navy in a Construction Battalion (SEABEE).
Why was he told he would never serve?
@@RK-cj4oc because he had flat feet and a few other minor health issues.
When I was called for the draft, I decided to enlist and gain a little control over my destiny. I joined US Army intelligence figuring that my life would be easier, the work would be important, and the training would be useful. All proved to be true. One month after I was discharged I started work with IBM. The cost was 2 extra years in the service.
If you were smart, you joined up for something safe or educational. A lot of people weren't smart.
Jersey Bob Did you also have to score high on the proficency tests to be allowed into the Intelligence service? As I understand it roles were assigned based on the "Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery" and if you scored high enough you could get to the Intelligence service.
@@earlyriser8998 Yes. The Army Security Agency required that you be in the top 10% of all the folks entering the Army. Only 3 out of the 10 actually made it. The other 7 didn’t volunteer or couldn’t get a security clearance. We called it a “A club for the top 10%”.
@@SandfordSmythe I’m not as smart as you make me out. When I enlisted you could pick a unit (intelligence) or a location (Europe) or a job. I wanted computers since I had training from RCA. Nothing in computers was available at that time. I picked intelligence and the recruiter said they would put me into computers. NOT! My job was important but totally boring and had no civilian application. I lucked out. My job’s mission was transferred to the Air Force and I got into computers. Had I planned ahead, I could have gotten in computers directly.
@@jerseybob4471 I knew someone who had HS Vocational Training in Aircraft Maintenance. He could have had his choice of his military career with good plans for a post-military career in his aircraft oriented home town, He did nothing and was drafted into the infantry. He came back with a bad case of PTSD.
I'd be interested to hear whether draft dodging was a widespread phenomenon either in the UK or US, using connections to be deemed exempted or to get into some non combat role. I had uncles who worked the mines, the land, or were imprisoned due to objecting according to their religious beliefs.
It definitely happened and it definitely resulted you going to prison. Prison not jail. The Selective Service kept track of those sent to Federal prison.
It really wasn't much of a thing during WWII, although it did happen. No doubt there were a few people well enough connected to remain out of the draft, but millions were drafted and only about 5000 ended up in prison over it.
It was a different time. My grandfather told me stories that if you were of draft age and walked down the street strangers would stop you and pointedly ask why you weren't in uniform.
@@tlillis4 "mind your own business" some could say or worse.
Great bass equalisation on this channel, these headphones were indeed a bargain
Solzhenitsyn writes at length in his Gulag Archipelago about the Soviet consciences objectors like the Tolstoyens, I found it very interesting
where's your drink Indy? ever tried a jam donut? i'm rusty on the order, i think wet the rim with an orange and dip in sugar, then baileys, then chambord (or i got those in the wrong order) over the back of a spoon slowly to keep them separated... delicious, but not for sipping :)
I always listen to this on 1.5x bc I like how Indy talks at that speed. This episode came up at normal speed and it sounds like he’s talking in slow motion 😂 😂
The "Ack Ack Girls", British ATS attached to the Royal Artillery who staffed the gun directors, height and range finders for the Heavy Anti Aircraft batteries defending Great Britain deserve a mention. Their battle stations were within shouting distance of the guns. Over 360 were killed in action. Major-General Sir Frederick Pile, General Officer Commanding-in-Chief Anti Aircraft Command wrote after the war "The girls lived like men, fought like men and, alas, some of them died like men.”
th-cam.com/video/X3QTv3PoltA/w-d-xo.html
I often wondered about this. Thank you.
You're welcome. Hope you're informed.
A friend of mine claimed conscientious objector status during the Vietnam war. It was denied since his denomination was not pacifist. He went to Canada. At the time, I was disappointed. He became a missionary in South America. He was the real deal.
Richard Nixon was a Quaker but served in the Navy during WWII.
If he was the *real deal* he'd of become a missionary in NON-Christian lands.
He's not doing Gods work, he shirked his duty to his nation, now he's poaching the Lords sheep from another Shepard's flock. Shameful.
@@the_Kutonarch You mean the faith loving flock of the church of cocaine and weed? They're the best christians
My grandfather had a limp from being drug by horses when he was a kid. He told me he never thought he'd be thankful for that. His brother-in-law was a Carpenter, and the army had him driving a bulldozer and building airfields. He said the only Germans he saw were POWs, and for him it was a paid vacation to France and the best time of his life. My mom's boss was a marine in the Pacific. He did not have a good time.
Lew Ayres star of All Quiet on the Western Front and the Dr. Kildare series served as a conscientious objector non-combat medic in the Pacific. He served with distinction.
In 1941, in the US, my father was facing being drafted into the Army. Having heard the horror stories of the trenches in France from his uncles, Dad decided to join the US Coast Guard. Living on Long Island Sound, he figured that he would be guarding from Boston to New York. WRONG! He ended up on an attack transport, crossed the Atlantic six times, and participated in seven landings in the ETO.
My father was an Eagle Scout. He found the transition to the USCG very easy and made rank quickly. At the same time there were many, young men, who had worked in the Civilian Conservation Corps. The CCC was run like a military outfit so, most of those men had an easy transition too.
I really enjoy the high quality of your videos and your sense of humor. My congratulations to your entire team. Good Luck, Rick
Thanks for sharing your story Rick and thanks also for the kind words about our content. Glad to hear you enjoy what we do so much.
A good informative series of historical content accurate and informative so that beginners of war history will understand
Glad you think so. Thanks for the kind words.
I live in Winnipeg . I remember seeing the newspaper from that day. If day!
A little surprised he didn't mention Desmond Doss, but then again he deserves his own special
He's only relevant quite a bit later in the war (we're still in 1942). Plus, the man was amazing but he already has a whole documentary and Hollywood film devoted to him, this video was more about highlighting the system of conscription that created men like Doss.
"I don't want to be conscripted!"
"Shtraf bataljon for you, tovarisch!"
That was probably the standard answer to any private's statement that began with "I don't want..."
During the WWI almost all Quakers refused conscription due to anti war believes and viewed it as an unjust conflict. However during the US Civil War and WWII there were many Quakers who enlisted or accepted their draft into the war. This was because of their beliefs of fighting injustice and immorality from the opposing side. Ending the evils of slavery in the Civil War and ending the atrocities committed by the Axis powers. This did cause some division within some Quaker communities, but it was ultimately up to the individual's calling, whether to serve or not.
Quackers also tried to outlaw slavery during the constitutional convention. Nice lads.
@@CarrotConsumer yes we are, thank you for the reply
My Great, great Uncle was conscripted and, in 1942, was sent from New Zealand all the way to Egypt as a driver. Within a few months of landing in Italy, he was captured and shortly afterwards died in a POW camp near Rome at the age of twenty two, presumed to be of sickness. His war lasted a year and three days from departure from New Zealand. He accomplished no great deeds and his death was unremarkable. He was just one of millions of young men called up to fight and ultimately die in this conflict. The saddest part is that no one in the family spoke about him (probably because he died a captive) and we're now estranged from my grandfather's side of the family. We only found out a few years ago about him which was poor timing as I'd just been in Rome. My Mum got to visit his grave in 2018 though.
more research needed ... Not every Quaker in the UK was a C.O., it depended on their individual conscience ... In 1944, my step-grandfather was conscripted to the coal-mines of NE England, we needed the energy for arms manufacture.
Some C.O. formed co-operatives in Essex to farm - look at Adelphi in Langham and the Frating Hall Farm Society.
They didn't say every Quaker was C.O. Just that Quakers formed the largest group of C.O's
You need a refresh in logical reasoning
My advice is don't be a conscientious objector to Venn diagrams. They make propositional logic much easier to grasp.
Alex has it right. We never said every Quaker was a C.O., just that the Quakers were at the forefront of the movement.
My grandfather didn't agree with killing either. He was training to be a Methodist minister at the time. But he still served his country stateside in uniform. He was an x-ray technician who patched up a lot of your grandfathers after the Battle of the Bulge.
My Great-Uncle, as a farm worker, was in a protected profession. He was given the job training Land Girls.
I don’t think you mentioned the “Bevan’s Boys”, young conscripts in Britain who were called up but were sent to work in the coal mines or munitions factories rather than the Armed Forces.
The Bevan Boys often had it doubly bad because though conscripted and unable to shift employment voluntarily or to join up (as they are already in “the forces”) but were often assumed to be conscientious objectors or to be seeking work in reserved occupations to avoid conscription by the communities they were living in.
I am 56 years old and I vividly remember a TV movie from 1974 called "The Execution of Private Slovak". It was based on a true story and starred Martin Sheen. You can find the movie on YT and other places. He was the first American military person executed for desertion since the Civil War. In the movie he is not a CO he simply can't stand the stress of being under shell fire and he repeatedly flees from fire. The army warns him repeatedly but he thinks he will at most do some time at levenworth prison. Tragically he is executed by an American firing squad. But Indy this video of yours did remind me of poor Private Slovak.
Hi Indy
Another wonderfull episode covered..
Thanks..
Conscription - the government not feeling content enough in its entitlement to the product of your labour deciding it is entitled to your body. And the slap in the face being how little they compensate for the (mis)use of it and/or the damage done to it.
It's essentially a form of slavery. I don't know why more people don't object to it.
@@CarrotConsumer Wrong. Private sector is so much better at enslaving people than states even imagine.
A couple of years ago, I went on a trip to Glacier National Park and noticed that there were many Mennonites there. When I asked the guide, he said many of their families worked to build the park as part of their alternative service when they were drafted and the families still retain their connection to the park.
A British officer in Burma declared the American COs serving as medics, were the bravest men he had ever seen.
Aways nice to see our beautiful Brazilian flag at the background!
I am an American but it is nice to see some the comment. It is a nice flag too.
Pissed that the Mexican flag Is still NOT there 😠
Neat seeing Camino and Placerville featured in the photos of the CPS camps. Certainly an essential service to the country in a time of war or peacetime.
My father was a CO and in Alternate Service. He put out Forest Fires in PA during WW2.
How would I fare in a WW2 draft with my -3 prescription glasses? Would I have to go to the front or can I just stay behind a push papers around?
Depends on which nation you are residing in, I think. If your country is engaged in a life and death struggle with an enemy he11-bent on your complete @nnihilation, you would either be in the war effort voluntarily, involuntarily, as penal labour, or be executed.
If correctable to 20/20 your probably in the A2 or B category. Sniper and fighter pilot are out but the poor bloody infantry or bomber command will take you.
@@davidwright7193 ah shiiieeeet... Can I at least join artillery or some logistics company? Or armored division as a tanker or something? Irly dont wanna be infantry...😌
In the modern military you still have plenty of people that serve without perfect eyesight. So long as it is corrected to 20/20 with glasses & people are still able to pass their rifle qualification, they're in.
@@ivvan497 probably so long as they can’t fill their ranks with A1 candidates. You could always volunteer before being drafted that puts you above the conscripts when it comes to getting your preferred branch. My grandfather volunteered out of school because that way he could make RAF aircrew where as if he was drafted he would probably have ended up in the army maintaining tanks or similar as he was coming out of a technical school.
The British were easier on conscientious objectors in WW2 than in WW1 - in the earlier conflict their treatment amounted to persecution, and quite a few died or were killed in jail.
@@duke9555 Sure but there are different circles and extremities of hell, if Dante is to be believed. The British shot over 300 of their servicemen for desertion or cowardice in WW1. This later became controversial and they shot none in WW2, as far as I am aware.
@@duke9555 "Why this is hell, nor am I out of it" - Mephistopheles, in "Doctor Faustus", written by a man under investigation for atheism at the time of his mysterious death. "Come, I think hell's a fable." "Ay, think so still, till experience change thy mind."
Since we are on this subject. Can you cover Jennette Rankin? She was the only member of congress to vote NO to war, after the Pearl Harbor attack.
She is very often overlooked.
I'd like to see a special about her.
During both the 1st and 2nd World Wars, South Africa had only voluntary military service as a large proportion of the Afrikaans population still had hatred for the English.
There was a comparatively large number of South African POWs in German or Italian hands, with a particularly large mass surrender at Tobruk, and they were sometimes seen as a weak link by other Empire contingents, although the most pro-Axis South Africans were interned during the war and went nowhere near the armed forces.
@@stevekaczynski3793 As far as the two sieges of Tobruk is concerned, all the defences had been removed for use elseware after the 1st siege.
@@GrumpyAustralian True but the South Africans were sometimes considered suspect, especially the Afrikaans-speaking ones.
During WW1 there was no conscription in Australia
Fascinating episode, great work!
Thanks. Glad you liked it.
2:16 As someone who has served in a conscription based military, I can confirm this.
Isreal?
@@beeg8615 Finland
@@jaakkosaha5787 How exactly? Are training times 'faster' in conscription based military? I'm quite curious since my country's military adopted a voluntary service system.
@@jaakkosaha5787 Cool
@@principalityofbelka6310 People don't work efficiently when they are forced to do something against their will. A conscript is practically a slave.
I love your channel keep up the great stuff
From October 1943 in the UK i in 10 conscripts were sent to the coal mines, regardless of their desires, a number was drawn each month in the ministry of labour and anyone whose National Service numbers ended with the number drawn went to the coal mines, there was an appeal process but few were upheld, refusal to go down the pits meant prison.
The "Bevin Boys" (named after the minister of Labour Ernest Bevin) had a hard time, even when on leave, as they had no uniform so were looked on with suspicion anyone that didnt know they were now miners.
They were not eligible for any service medal (as everyone who put on a uniform was) or eligible for the Demob grant available to servicemen, they were not recognised until a veterans badge was instituted in 2007.
Some notable Bevin Boys:
Stanley Baker - Actor fanous for playing Lt Chard in "Zulu"
Eric Morcombe - Comedian
nat Lofthouse - Footballer 33 caps for England
The television personality Jimmy Savile was another.
As far as I know, Desmond Doss is the only CO to win the Medal of Honor. My Uncle Grafton was a medic and saw service on the Philippines.
Another great video! Thanks for the content!
You're very welcome.
When asked about the medical exam he was given following his drafting in 1942, a man of my acquaintance said, "The only thing they did was count your eyes."
That's a great anecdote, thanks David
12:31 I nearly choked on me cookies
You know, the obvious guy to come up when objectors are discussed is Desmond Doss. I don't know how accurate the movie made about him is in terms of dialogue but I see it as really weird when in the movie, his squadmates call him a "coward" for not being willing to handle firearms, despite him making it clear he still wants to serve as a medic on the frontlines, just without being armed. Like, this guy has basically stated that he's willing to be put in the middle of a firefight, unarmed, to save their lives. To me, that makes him more heroic than they are.
Really? You think being on the frontlines and doing nothing to protect your fellow soldiers and expecting them to protect you is more heroic?
@Chris Benson some people just don't have it in them to hurt other people. I do, but years of people hurting me has made me in to a person happy to use violence for my own reasons. 8 years in prison off and on has made me more than comfortable with it. But some folks are gentle. We need more of them in the world and less of me.
My Father was an Army recruiter in Asheville NC when Pearl Harbor was bombed. The following Monday, men were lined up outside his office eight abreast for over eight blocks. It was like that for 2+ weeks. Very few CO in western NC. In fact, many individuals who were not eligible to enlistment tried to cheat to enter service.
Very interesting stuff! Thanks for sharing it!
Made me curious about the case in Finland but I wasn't able to find much information.
Military service was compulsary in Finland until a man by the name of Pekurinen refused and was imprisoned and terrorized by a nationalist group as a consequence. International requests/pressure led to Finland introducing the first forms of "civil service" for those who would refuse to go the the military.
However this was all pre-war and didn't apply in wartime. Pekurinen was imprisoned again in 1939 for refusing to take part in the winter war and was later executed in the field without trial in 1941 for his refusals.
Perhaps that's some indication that getting out of Finnish service during WW2 wasn't much of an option and that's why I can't find any information.
Excellent presentation and very informative! Thank you for all the hard work and time that you devote to all these videos.
I really enjoy the weekly summary of World War II that you are doing now; just as I really enjoyed your examination of The Great War as it revealed so much information about the conflict that I didn't know before the video series.
Thank you again!
Your appreciation means the world to us! Thank you!
my dad had a heart murmur and was disqualified from serving in the armed forces .....so he spent the war in the arctic building oil pipelines....the pictures of him with a 100 lb back pack in the Canadian mountains suggest the heart murmur wasn't as bad as they thought. He did die of a bad heart valve.... 40 years later.
Four uncles served and three survived the war but I think all four were volunteers.