Very nice. I do love a Klingon Bird-of-Prey. It's even cool that the K'Vort has aft firing disruptors, and a rear torpedo tube. And while that last fight was close, even a K'Vort gets dusted by Captain Sulu and the mighty Excelsior.
Its currently being rebalanced lol. It was holding the slot that is now taken by the B'Rel so it was more powerful than it should be. Now being reworked to be suitably crap 🤣
@@02ujtb00626 Definitely were during the late 23rd century, being about equal to a Constitution Refit. By TNG they were very long in the tooth, I remember a tng episode where a KTinga attacked the D and it had no effect on their shields By the Ds9 period they had been refitted, their forward torpedo replaced by a lance phaser. If they could hang back and fire at range I think they would be a threat against frigate sized ships but against a Galor III or an Excelsior they wouldn't last long. They were outdated by this point but certainly had their uses in combat. They were probably about the strength of a Miranda
@@adamlee2111 oh I thought the battles were set in TMP era for some reason lol. Yeah your rights by TNG they were the excelsior class, even the miranda class, of the KIDF. Still doing okay but long in the tooth like you said.
I feel like by the time of the Dominion War, the K'Tinga were being used either as Heavy Destroyers, as seen in "Way of the Warrior" with the heavy red phaser cannons instead of torpedo launchers, or maybe a T-Destroyer variant, which they refit them with better launchers up front. In both cases the proper tactical deployment of the K'Tinga is in packs of 3-4 either as heavy fire support using their heavy phasers for B'Rel attack wings, or as T-Destroyers running in wings of 3, firing torpedo spreads and running as part of dedicated Vorcha battlegroups or for squadrons attacking starbases or other static installations. By themselves, K'Tingas are pretty vulnerable to cruisers or squadrons of attack ships. Running into a squadron of Bug ships, or a Galor Type III, or worse a Keldon, would be a very bad day for a K'Tinga.
Well done! I think we had a back and forth about BOP sizes a while back. It is crazy in the inconsistency that there are five different sizes depicted on screen. But, I think three primary ones are credible. I always thought there was an intermediate sized BOP as well, in my head it was the D-12 Class seen in Generations being used by the Duras, ranging around 220m in length. I always thought Martok's ship was in this size too, because it shouldn't be so strong as a run of the mill B'Rel and we know it wasn't a K'vort. I agree with the general strength of the K'Vort. It never made sense to me that such a large ship like a K'Vort had no secondary weapons on that large hull. Defeating one would be simple otherwise in avoiding its front.
Nah. The whole 'big Bird Of Prey' concept is just silly, to me. The design itself is clearly meant to be a small ship. Enlarging it to cruiser-size just makes it look like a small ship for giants. Proportions are completely off, structurally it makes no sense, and a lot of wasted space (can you imagine how thick those wings have to be not to just bend under their own weight in atmospheric flight)? And is there anything inside, or are they just hunks of metal? That's a lot of wasted material, right there. And where are those aft torpedoes fired from? The impulse engine?
@@necroticavalon5176 They fire from above the Impulse engine. I take your point though, I hate the overuse of the BoP design and yes, it often displays ridiculous capabilities for its size This is just an attempt to create something credible from a mess, both in scaling and inconsistent capabilities
I find if I disregard the notions of fighter and supercruiser-scale BOPs, life gets a little simpler. 1. Scout BOP, a range of 88-109m Scout, patrol, raid 2. Frigate BOP, 130-240m Counter-insurgency, fleet support, intercepter 3. Cruiser BOP, about 350m Support, light-attack cruiser, battlecruiser, when no Vor'cha nor Voodieh are available
@@Euripides_Panz Still way too murky. They overused the model during the 90's shows, and now we're stuck with the aftermath, thirty years later. When there's so many cool Klingon designs to pick from in Beta Canon. And a cruiser-sized BoP is just absurd on the face of it. Proportions are completely out of whack. Not to mention it wouldn't even be able to fly due to structural stresses, especially in the atmosphere (and the BoP is supposed to be designed for atmospheric flight).
@@necroticavalon5176 Fair points. I also think in universe they are so absurdly overmatched by 2365. D'Deridex is way superior and even Galor Type IIs are more than capable of handling them if they are smart about it. The K"vort is only useful in the ambush and that is it. I feel the Klingon Fleet was really in a tough spot after the Romulans returned until around 2371 when they had enough Vorchas to run with mixed squadrons. People rip on the Cardassians for being a bit behind, but the Klingon Fleet in 2367 is really no better, it has very few Vorchas and a ton of old K'Tingas and K'Vorts. Could peace with the Federation have been an outgrowth of their inability to modernize their fleet in the mid-23rd Century?
It was accurate to Star Trek canon, the Excelsior took lots of fire and the damage was like the Enterprise in Star Trek 6. The Excelsior was the big dog of Star Fleet in the late 23rd century so I expect it to take punishment and dish it out more. Battles were great!
I almost think either your Excelsior is a little too strong or your K'Vort is not strong enough. Ill go with the former given how 2 almost pasted your nebula. Excelsior was durable, but by 2370's she was kind of a joke. I know its had upgrades but it and Miranda were rather old and did struggle
Not sure I would agree with this, the Excelsior was never portrayed as a joke. I think 2 Excelsior's circa Ds9 would be an even match to a Nebula The Lakota's capabilities come to mind. Yes, it was a substantial tactical refit but the Lakota must have been pretty decent beforehand to make those upgrades viable. Why waste substantial time and resources trying to turn a joke into a serious ship? I would also argue that whilst the K'Vort was decently powerful, it was still an enlarged Bird of Prey at the end of the day. If only Star Trek was more forthcoming and consistent with these things we would know for sure 👍
@@adamlee2111 But back to the Excelsior, joke was a bad descriptor. It was a heavy cruiser that its base design was 80+ years old. It was a great ship in its day, and remained a very viable combat ship through the 2350's. Other than very extensive modifications, it was pretty much at the end of its life and its last major upgrades lined up with what the ambassador came out of the factory with (type 9 phasers and the torpedoes of the era). It struggled against bug ships and Galor 3's. Its best role in the end would have been admirals and science. The Lakota was the rebuilt classic car to remind the admirals of how great an excelsior was before the Ambassador. It was a labor of love and i guarantee it took a lot to make those changes. Stock Galaxy (type 10) phasers, quantum torpedoes, and a very powerful shield grid. Was time in dry dock worth the return since there is only one "type 3" that we know of? Uss Centaur, started off as a failed mothballed Excelsior off shoot, supposed to replace the miranda, that got revived after wolf 359. It is smaller yet more powerful than a DS9 Excelsior because it was the testbed for the Defiant Core and was one of Sisko's projects (high powered, low crew count). The Centaur had Galaxy phaser power modern shields, and Type 6 Torpedoes. It was a badass Excelsior type.
Ok... not sure what to make of this. You made the K'Vort basically a compact Vor'Cha in firepower (at least by my estimate here). Where does that leave the K'Tinga (which should be more powerful)? Or are you planning the K'Vort to be the one 'in between' the K'tinga and Vor'Cha? Rather then going to beta-canon to find a more suitable ship? I honestly can't stand oversized BoPs as capital ships (which the shows only did because they had no other models), but that's just me and my low opinion of BoP-style ships in general. And since when can any BoP fire beams (except the 22 century ones)? Lots of questions here. As for BoP and B'rel, those fights took way too long. You should've Tractor Beamed those little insects and stomped them out in half the time!
The K'Tinga Class by the TNG era is basically a destroyer. It is superior to the B'Rel BoP, which is the attack ship variant at about 110m long, but quite inferior to the K'Vort Class Cruiser which are the large BoPs at about 350m long. The K'Tingas have been refit by the time of DS9, with their torpedo tubes replaced with a heavy phaser cannon of some sort, they are probably used as fire-support for lighter ships. But they are no longer considered cruisers.
@@crownprincesebastianjohano7069 Eh I guess. I just have a problem with big BoPs in general. They make no sense from a logical standpoint. That kind of ship design only really works as a small scout ship, and they only exist as bigger version due to various shows' limitations in models. I really wish Adam would dip into Beta Canon for more Klingon ships to fill-in the gaps. There are quite a few to choose from.
I agree completely, the BoP lineage is one of my most hated in Star Trek for the reasons you have stated here and elsewhere, but they are part of the lore for better or worse so I've tried to create something halfway credible. Yes, the K'Vort has been hardpointed as basically a compact Vor'Cha. The rationale is severe economic shortages and political upheaval after Praxis creating decades of lack and instability, preventing the Klingon's from designing and mass producing a true successor of the K'Tinga until the 2360's when the Vor'Cha came along. My head cannon is that the K'Vort was a stop gap solution, appearing sometime in the late 2320's-early 2330's to bolster their fleet due to the K'Tinga becoming outdated and ineffective
@@adamlee2111 Why be beholden to shows' lore? I keep suggesting the Fek'lhr class to be the middle-ground. Look it up on Memory Beta. A literal heavy cruiser, almost point-for-point equivalent to the Excelsior. Yes, it's B-canon from Starfleet Command 3, but it fits the role perfectly! And I can guess why they invented it for that game - for this exact reason, to have something that fits 'in between'. It even looks like a stepping-stone between a K'tinga and a Vor'Cha. I mean it's not like Bridge Commander itself is a lore-accurate game. We've got Hybrids, we've got Kessok (who literally only exist in this game's universe), we've got Legate Matan (who was also invented for this game as the antagonist) - come on. Instead, you now have 3 different classes of ship that are basically the same exact ship, just enlarged. I'm fine with BoP and B'rel, those two are similar enough in size and capability to be plausible (not ideal, but it is what it is), but the K'vort "heavy cruiser" is just ridiculous. Especially when there is a viable alternative from B-canon. Also, while you're at it, you might want to have a look at Romulan lineup from SFC3. They've got some really nice stand-ins for different classes that would translate well to BC. No Star Trek game is fully lore-accurate. Face it. They ALL add something of their own. EDIT: Or you can even look up "Emperor-class" D9 from Klingon Academy. That's also an Excelsior equivalent. The ships are out there, that can fill this role. And I'm sure models exist for BC. Copy-pasting 3 different BoPs is just... well. It may be lore accurate, but it doesn't make it any less absurd. Especially when the lore was influenced by budgetary reasons of the time.
Very nice. I do love a Klingon Bird-of-Prey. It's even cool that the K'Vort has aft firing disruptors, and a rear torpedo tube. And while that last fight was close, even a K'Vort gets dusted by Captain Sulu and the mighty Excelsior.
This is a Ds9 era Excelsior but point taken! The Excelsior class is no slouch even in its old age
Awesome as usual. I was secretly hoping you'd throw in the K'Tinga for good measure lol. 😆
Its currently being rebalanced lol. It was holding the slot that is now taken by the B'Rel so it was more powerful than it should be. Now being reworked to be suitably crap 🤣
@@adamlee2111 I dunno the K'Tinga's were a credible threat though weren't they?
@@02ujtb00626 Definitely were during the late 23rd century, being about equal to a Constitution Refit. By TNG they were very long in the tooth, I remember a tng episode where a KTinga attacked the D and it had no effect on their shields
By the Ds9 period they had been refitted, their forward torpedo replaced by a lance phaser. If they could hang back and fire at range I think they would be a threat against frigate sized ships but against a Galor III or an Excelsior they wouldn't last long. They were outdated by this point but certainly had their uses in combat. They were probably about the strength of a Miranda
@@adamlee2111 oh I thought the battles were set in TMP era for some reason lol. Yeah your rights by TNG they were the excelsior class, even the miranda class, of the KIDF. Still doing okay but long in the tooth like you said.
I feel like by the time of the Dominion War, the K'Tinga were being used either as Heavy Destroyers, as seen in "Way of the Warrior" with the heavy red phaser cannons instead of torpedo launchers, or maybe a T-Destroyer variant, which they refit them with better launchers up front. In both cases the proper tactical deployment of the K'Tinga is in packs of 3-4 either as heavy fire support using their heavy phasers for B'Rel attack wings, or as T-Destroyers running in wings of 3, firing torpedo spreads and running as part of dedicated Vorcha battlegroups or for squadrons attacking starbases or other static installations. By themselves, K'Tingas are pretty vulnerable to cruisers or squadrons of attack ships. Running into a squadron of Bug ships, or a Galor Type III, or worse a Keldon, would be a very bad day for a K'Tinga.
Very cool We all wait for us ur mod
Well done! I think we had a back and forth about BOP sizes a while back. It is crazy in the inconsistency that there are five different sizes depicted on screen. But, I think three primary ones are credible. I always thought there was an intermediate sized BOP as well, in my head it was the D-12 Class seen in Generations being used by the Duras, ranging around 220m in length. I always thought Martok's ship was in this size too, because it shouldn't be so strong as a run of the mill B'Rel and we know it wasn't a K'vort. I agree with the general strength of the K'Vort. It never made sense to me that such a large ship like a K'Vort had no secondary weapons on that large hull. Defeating one would be simple otherwise in avoiding its front.
Nah. The whole 'big Bird Of Prey' concept is just silly, to me. The design itself is clearly meant to be a small ship. Enlarging it to cruiser-size just makes it look like a small ship for giants. Proportions are completely off, structurally it makes no sense, and a lot of wasted space (can you imagine how thick those wings have to be not to just bend under their own weight in atmospheric flight)? And is there anything inside, or are they just hunks of metal? That's a lot of wasted material, right there. And where are those aft torpedoes fired from? The impulse engine?
@@necroticavalon5176 They fire from above the Impulse engine. I take your point though, I hate the overuse of the BoP design and yes, it often displays ridiculous capabilities for its size
This is just an attempt to create something credible from a mess, both in scaling and inconsistent capabilities
I find if I disregard the notions of fighter and supercruiser-scale BOPs, life gets a little simpler.
1. Scout BOP, a range of 88-109m
Scout, patrol, raid
2. Frigate BOP, 130-240m
Counter-insurgency, fleet support, intercepter
3. Cruiser BOP, about 350m
Support, light-attack cruiser, battlecruiser, when no Vor'cha nor Voodieh are available
@@Euripides_Panz Still way too murky. They overused the model during the 90's shows, and now we're stuck with the aftermath, thirty years later. When there's so many cool Klingon designs to pick from in Beta Canon. And a cruiser-sized BoP is just absurd on the face of it. Proportions are completely out of whack. Not to mention it wouldn't even be able to fly due to structural stresses, especially in the atmosphere (and the BoP is supposed to be designed for atmospheric flight).
@@necroticavalon5176 Fair points. I also think in universe they are so absurdly overmatched by 2365. D'Deridex is way superior and even Galor Type IIs are more than capable of handling them if they are smart about it. The K"vort is only useful in the ambush and that is it. I feel the Klingon Fleet was really in a tough spot after the Romulans returned until around 2371 when they had enough Vorchas to run with mixed squadrons. People rip on the Cardassians for being a bit behind, but the Klingon Fleet in 2367 is really no better, it has very few Vorchas and a ton of old K'Tingas and K'Vorts. Could peace with the Federation have been an outgrowth of their inability to modernize their fleet in the mid-23rd Century?
It was accurate to Star Trek canon, the Excelsior took lots of fire and the damage was like the Enterprise in Star Trek 6.
The Excelsior was the big dog of Star Fleet in the late 23rd century so I expect it to take punishment and dish it out more. Battles were great!
Thank you, glad you enjoyed 👍
Was it just me or did I miss the Romulan bird of Prey. just asking as it is a bird of prey.
I almost think either your Excelsior is a little too strong or your K'Vort is not strong enough. Ill go with the former given how 2 almost pasted your nebula. Excelsior was durable, but by 2370's she was kind of a joke.
I know its had upgrades but it and Miranda were rather old and did struggle
Not sure I would agree with this, the Excelsior was never portrayed as a joke. I think 2 Excelsior's circa Ds9 would be an even match to a Nebula
The Lakota's capabilities come to mind. Yes, it was a substantial tactical refit but the Lakota must have been pretty decent beforehand to make those upgrades viable. Why waste substantial time and resources trying to turn a joke into a serious ship?
I would also argue that whilst the K'Vort was decently powerful, it was still an enlarged Bird of Prey at the end of the day. If only Star Trek was more forthcoming and consistent with these things we would know for sure
👍
@@adamlee2111 Calling Excelsior a joke is a poor choice of words. That title belongs to the Oberth 😂
@@aaronatwood9298 Imagine spending 20 years working your way up to Captain and being given one of those 😂
@@adamlee2111 But back to the Excelsior, joke was a bad descriptor. It was a heavy cruiser that its base design was 80+ years old. It was a great ship in its day, and remained a very viable combat ship through the 2350's. Other than very extensive modifications, it was pretty much at the end of its life and its last major upgrades lined up with what the ambassador came out of the factory with (type 9 phasers and the torpedoes of the era). It struggled against bug ships and Galor 3's. Its best role in the end would have been admirals and science.
The Lakota was the rebuilt classic car to remind the admirals of how great an excelsior was before the Ambassador. It was a labor of love and i guarantee it took a lot to make those changes. Stock Galaxy (type 10) phasers, quantum torpedoes, and a very powerful shield grid. Was time in dry dock worth the return since there is only one "type 3" that we know of?
Uss Centaur, started off as a failed mothballed Excelsior off shoot, supposed to replace the miranda, that got revived after wolf 359. It is smaller yet more powerful than a DS9 Excelsior because it was the testbed for the Defiant Core and was one of Sisko's projects (high powered, low crew count). The Centaur had Galaxy phaser power modern shields, and Type 6 Torpedoes. It was a badass Excelsior type.
Ok... not sure what to make of this. You made the K'Vort basically a compact Vor'Cha in firepower (at least by my estimate here). Where does that leave the K'Tinga (which should be more powerful)?
Or are you planning the K'Vort to be the one 'in between' the K'tinga and Vor'Cha? Rather then going to beta-canon to find a more suitable ship? I honestly can't stand oversized BoPs as capital ships (which the shows only did because they had no other models), but that's just me and my low opinion of BoP-style ships in general. And since when can any BoP fire beams (except the 22 century ones)?
Lots of questions here.
As for BoP and B'rel, those fights took way too long. You should've Tractor Beamed those little insects and stomped them out in half the time!
I think Vor’Chas were the TNG equivalent of K’Tingas/D7’s
The K'Tinga Class by the TNG era is basically a destroyer. It is superior to the B'Rel BoP, which is the attack ship variant at about 110m long, but quite inferior to the K'Vort Class Cruiser which are the large BoPs at about 350m long. The K'Tingas have been refit by the time of DS9, with their torpedo tubes replaced with a heavy phaser cannon of some sort, they are probably used as fire-support for lighter ships. But they are no longer considered cruisers.
@@crownprincesebastianjohano7069 Eh I guess. I just have a problem with big BoPs in general. They make no sense from a logical standpoint. That kind of ship design only really works as a small scout ship, and they only exist as bigger version due to various shows' limitations in models. I really wish Adam would dip into Beta Canon for more Klingon ships to fill-in the gaps. There are quite a few to choose from.
I agree completely, the BoP lineage is one of my most hated in Star Trek for the reasons you have stated here and elsewhere, but they are part of the lore for better or worse so I've tried to create something halfway credible.
Yes, the K'Vort has been hardpointed as basically a compact Vor'Cha. The rationale is severe economic shortages and political upheaval after Praxis creating decades of lack and instability, preventing the Klingon's from designing and mass producing a true successor of the K'Tinga until the 2360's when the Vor'Cha came along. My head cannon is that the K'Vort was a stop gap solution, appearing sometime in the late 2320's-early 2330's to bolster their fleet due to the K'Tinga becoming outdated and ineffective
@@adamlee2111 Why be beholden to shows' lore? I keep suggesting the Fek'lhr class to be the middle-ground. Look it up on Memory Beta. A literal heavy cruiser, almost point-for-point equivalent to the Excelsior. Yes, it's B-canon from Starfleet Command 3, but it fits the role perfectly! And I can guess why they invented it for that game - for this exact reason, to have something that fits 'in between'. It even looks like a stepping-stone between a K'tinga and a Vor'Cha. I mean it's not like Bridge Commander itself is a lore-accurate game. We've got Hybrids, we've got Kessok (who literally only exist in this game's universe), we've got Legate Matan (who was also invented for this game as the antagonist) - come on.
Instead, you now have 3 different classes of ship that are basically the same exact ship, just enlarged. I'm fine with BoP and B'rel, those two are similar enough in size and capability to be plausible (not ideal, but it is what it is), but the K'vort "heavy cruiser" is just ridiculous. Especially when there is a viable alternative from B-canon.
Also, while you're at it, you might want to have a look at Romulan lineup from SFC3. They've got some really nice stand-ins for different classes that would translate well to BC.
No Star Trek game is fully lore-accurate. Face it. They ALL add something of their own.
EDIT: Or you can even look up "Emperor-class" D9 from Klingon Academy. That's also an Excelsior equivalent. The ships are out there, that can fill this role. And I'm sure models exist for BC. Copy-pasting 3 different BoPs is just... well. It may be lore accurate, but it doesn't make it any less absurd. Especially when the lore was influenced by budgetary reasons of the time.