Doug and Pat Revisit the Original and Reissue Marshall 18 watt combos.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ก.ย. 2024
- How does the reissue Marshall model 1974 18 watt combo sound compared to the original from the sixties? Doug and Pat return to find out switching components to see if it really is just the speaker or grill cloth or something else. Sure, confusion creeps in sometimes but they make it through with most of their dignity intact. Oh yeah, and another opportunity to Make Doug and Pat Rich, instructions on how included.
What I walked away from in this test is: If I purchased a reissue, I would swap out the speakers and tubes with an old greenback and old Mullards. Excellent job. Thanks for the hard work!
New amp+Vintage speaker+Vintage (Mullard) tubes (12.12) is closest to the vintage amp (5.42). A bit brighter, but not in a bad way.
Thank you! You gentlemen are doing exellent work here.
Carol Ann did a 67 18 Watt Plexi 1974x remake and found the hardest part was getting the exact Grille Cloth, come to find out the cost was ended up at over 300 dollars to replace, the fabric was very dense and difficult to make, and it made a big difference in the sound. In Michael Doyle's acclaimed book The History of Marshall, he states on Page 124: "It is worth noting that not all grille cloths are acoustically transparent. In fact, I refer to the Bluesbreaker-type cloths in particular as 'tone cloths,' because they are of such a heavy weave that they alter the sound."
Awesome demo as always fellas. I’ve been playing a 1974x for a number of years it’s great to hear the swaps with the vintage one
Guys I have to say this is one of my favorite episodes... I would absolutely love to see more like this one! Thanks for all of the great episodes I really love the show.
We're working on another Marshall episode with some stacks; old ones and not so old ones in a great big hall where we can let them run free. D&P
Awesome, I can't wait for that....
This is a no brainer. The reissue will never sound like an original, originals had mustard caps that aren't made anymore, transformers that can't be copied with vintage iron and vintage magnet wire (which by itself is impossible to copy), vintage carbon comp resistors, vintage speaker with vintage magnet and cone, vintage tubes. NONE of these things can be 100% copied and all those parts and components add up to alot of big differences. But I will say THIS.... Mick Grabham who was in Procol Harum in the 70's, builds amps and restores vintage amps. As a surprise he sent me a gift of an 18 watt chassis he built for me because he knew I needed some kind of Marshall amp for my demo work here on TH-cam. Fabulous sounding amp, I put it in the correct size combo cab, got some "bluesbreaker" grill cloth and installed a current issue Greenback Celestion. I thought the amp was a little darkish sounding, so I went looking on TH-cam to see if I can hear a demo of a genuine vintage Marshall 18 watt and found your last demo of one. Mick's amp sounds nearly identical to the one you played. I was shocked and gained a hefty new respect for what Mick builds, because he knows vintage amps, works on them all the time and has some magic wand that he used on mine and milked it for a truly accurate sounding replica. Unfortunately a mass production factory can't do that, too much tweaking time to work out the tiny details. Now I have a JTM45 head he built for me and WOW! It is possible to get close to old amps, but in the end identical is impossible.
SDPickups I have to agree. The components and transformers add up to a big difference. That's what is hard to replicate. I think the grill cloth is lees a factor but it still makes some difference.
+SDPickups Disagree that this is a 'no brainer'... check out the archives at 18watt.com if you want a taste of the work that was done to 'reproduce' the 18 watter... which I believe eventually inspired Marshall to build them again... I agree that without the same components, you can't expect the same results, but I'll keep it brief; the issue seems to be WHICH component(s) contribute the MOST to the 'original' sound - I've personally A-B tested pre-Rola Celestion speakers vs modern Greenbacks (played in...) and found surprisingly little difference, but there was a big difference between Output Transformers - those 'reproduced' by EMC, Heyboer and others are way, way less 'fizzy' and more 'original' sounding than the cheaper ones that Marshall and others seem to use. However, having said that, I recently played a Marshall 18 watt 2x12" reissue which sounded great, so the speakers were making a big difference there... life's too short for the tiny details, but you can find working solutions with a bit of playing around.
Great job capturing the tone of that circuit. I built a clone 3 years ago and have been in love from day one. I like to vary the tone of mine by swapping speakers and adding extension cabs.
The Output Transformer is 40% of an amps' tone/sound. They also need at least 20 hours of being played thru to open up. The caps in The signal path need about 50 hours to open up. Also the type of composition the caps are made with is important. The old Iskra/Phillips "mustard" caps were Polyester. The newer ones are Polyproplene which I think sound harsher, less dimensional. If you replaced the caps in the new amp with Sozo NexGen will make that amp sound much better as well as replacing the output transformer with a Mercury Magnetics RS clone will get you there along with an Alnico Celestion!
Agree, the OT makes a huge difference
You could probably just get away with the alnico as is because of the depth and dynamics that brings, it sure did take my jcm600 to a whole new level !
Never thought the tubes would have been the reason. Great job gents!
Ah the video we have been waiting for. I am happy to say that I would take either amp. Marshall did a great job on the reissue I can't see myself springing for an old 18 watt particularly when the tone is so close. I probably would have turned the treble down on the reissue and the amps up to ten and controlled the volume from the guitar. People always talk about how great players sound great through whatever they play. I can't help but think that part of the reason is how they EQ their amps. The component swapping is interesting and I understand that people doing A/B comparisons want an unbiased comparison. I want to hear how a great player adjusts the amp prior to playing. The comparison is cool thanks Doug and Pat!
Too many times the hairs on my arm have risen while watching this video. Thank You my brothers!!!
Great demo (as always.) To my ears while you could hear a difference in the sound of the reissue after you change the tubes and speaker. The old amp still sounded like the old amp. By the way I got a "Doug & pat show" tee shirt for xmas.
the reissue with the old tubes and speaker sounds amazing, it smoothed out some of the highs and got rid of this top end growl i didnt quit like. which was i think caused by the newer speaker. i really like both, but id probably gig the reissue with a swapped speaker and some mullards. the vintage would be good for studio. use it for a"signature" sound. old gear is exactly that old. its got some years on it, some wear. speakers worn in, and its got military grade tubes in it. nothing is the same as new once its gotten up there.
I put an old mullard el 84 in a Marshall class 5 and it really smoothed the tone out ,them old mullard el 84 make a big difference ,i came across 12 el 84 mew old stock in there boxes from an old radio repair shop ,I’ve been swapping tubes till I got these very happy with results
The reissue amp with the old Mullards and the old speaker and cab sounded really good to me. The tubes seemed to enhance the range of frequencies I could hear, sounding fuller, and the old speaker tamed some of the brightness and harshness of the reissue amp. The reissue was still brighter to my ears, but this combination sounded great to me. The older Marshall amp seemed to loose its smoothness with the newer speaker. Thanks for posting this guys! Love the show.
I think mixing the cabinet and tubes really made the two amps sound similar. Great Job guys!
Pat is obviously the brains behind the operation , give him his own channel !
ravensmead It's in the works, I gotta get rid of that loser. Thanks for thinking of me. Pat
The Doug and Pat Show lmfao
How about backing off the tone which was on 10 on the reissue and see if that can get closer to the old one. I'd rather it be bright on 10 knowing I can back it off to four or six or roll the tone knob back on the guitar than start out to dark with no where to go but darker.
Brilliant stuff guys, thank you! I think the main diff is the aged electronic componants and the output transformer. As usual all of the above contribute to the sound though so i think all of the above really. If i had one of those re-issues i would definately swap out the grill cloth for a piece of that ECCollins reissue stuff.
Great Job guys..I just found your show and its addictive, just like old gear..
Both amps sound great. I preferred the original but I found that the tube/speaker/cab swap tone was close.
When playing sunburst Les Paul old box sounds better to me.
Well done Doug!
I wish I could play like that!
I have a well worn in reissue from 2008 which has the factory 20watt Greenback. It doesn’t sound bright nor strident in the least. Have used the original Marshall branded tubes and a NOS Tung Sol EZ81 and Sylvania Black Plate EL84S. Sounds warm and sweet and crunchy.
if you want a better tone swap those marshall branded preamp tubes(probably jj) for nos mullard i63's,it will improve the tone much more than the other tubes at any volume. mine is from 2005 with the matching 1974cx cab at 8 ohms, swapped all the original jj tubes for old mullards and i love it. i think that if i'll swap one speaker to alnico cream this amp will fight vintage.
@@yaniv-nos-tubes Thanks. Haven’t located any Mullards yet but I did try an Amperex Bugle Boy, and I think a regular Amperex 7025 and an RFT ecc83. Liked the RFT best for the tremolo channel and the Bugle Boy for the other channel with the Marshall phase inverter. Great amp.
What? No Oscar!?!?!
The reissue sounds best to me. I like the brightness it adds and I can still hear the warmth underneath.
I know this is old but damnnn. This is good tone right here. I like this! I dig both amps!
Huge fan of the show! Just a little warning: You should be a little bit careful when putting your nice old valuable Mullard EL84s straight into the reissue 18 Watt, since these amps have a lower value cathode (bias-)resistor on their output tubes than the old originals - probably to "compensate" for new EL84s, which typically draw less current than NOS-tubes. If you just pop your NOS-tubes into one of these reissues without changing the cathode resistor, you run the risk of overloading these fine old tubes. Othervise a very interesting test. Keep up the good work! :-)
the amps sound good, but my suspicion is it's your hands that make the amps sound so good. you are a very good player with much control over the instrument.
i really dig it.
could you also do a short jazzy performance one more time?
the speaker makes most of the difference.
they both sound great, i like the dark drive of the old one, i figure the reissue will sound tlike the original in 40 years, component values shift, the wood cab mellows with all the frequencies shaking it up the speaker mellows, all that fun stuff. thanks for a great demo, i want both of them :)
you really cant beat a well broken in speaker.. nice full sound.
I just saw this video. I have a 1974X. One of the first things I did was to replace the stock JJ tubes with all real Mullard tubes. The Mullard tubes warm the amp up for sure. Better dynamics as well.
Having said this I still need to have the tone dialed back. Not as much as with the JJ tubes. The speaker that comes with the amp is the aged greenback. It can be a little harsh in the high end. I can hear that in this video as well. I do like the speaker though.
Note, I have the 1974CX extension cabinet too with the same aged stock speaker. Using the cab with the amp adds some low end. I think it helps. It makes it pop a little for a lack of better terms.
I am interested in trying a real pulsonic greenback like in the original.
As Monty Python would say "now for something completely different"
What I did find is using a a G12H30 type speaker will warm up the amp and still have enough mids and treble. It will be louder that the stock speaker as well. I might sound more like the original 1974 with the 1974X. It might make up for the thicker grill cloth on the 1974. Having said I think modern Celestion H30 or G12M speakers can sound really harsh and take to long to break in.
There are other companies with make G12M and G12H clones that might be closer to the original speaker in the 1974.
Overall this video is very helpful. Thanks Doug and Pat. I like that you let the viewer decide.
i have a 1974x from 2005 and an almost new cx cab running both at 8 ohms,the old speaker sounds a lot better and still the tone is at 3 with my maple strat and it's a bit bright. i think that the best solution is to swap new speaker to an alnico cream, tried one it on a harsh hot rod and it made magic.
In my humble opinion the speaker seems to be the main difference, the reissue has a sharper my defined sound with less bite. Still an amazing amp
Agree!
That old one is just magic.
Great job guys! Thanks for posting!
From my experience, loudspeakers and tubes make a lot of difference. I have been tweaking mine in order to get more headroom, cristal-clear clean sound and a slower gain/saturation from the power tubes.
My verdict: the reissue with the old Mullard tubes, run through the old cabinet and speaker sound great. In some notes, I could hear the sound of the "Beano" album.
The old original amp sounds sweet, mellower, but has not got the bite of the reissue. It's all a matter of taste...
I personally bought a 2nd hand amp, in which I changed the loudspeaker for an older one, opened the back (it was a closed cab), tweaked the preamp and power tubes, until the result was perfect to my ear.
I tried it with humbuckers, single coils, P90: all pure pleasure now !
IMO, you don't need to invest $$$ in a true vintage amp, as long as you put together the right components. Unless you absolutely want the worn out looks ;-)
Cheers \m/
Like others have said before. The OT would probably be the last important part of the tone difference between the two. The reissue did sound a bit less peaky with the old tubes and the vintage speaker but not dramtically different. The reissue greenback 20 watt is a well made and excellent sounding speaker. With the reissue marshall speaker breaking in and better tubes plus a good 2-4 hours of daily use. And after years of consistent and continual future break in.This would be the final step in polishing up a diamond. We can say that the old amp with it's quality components, has through the passage of time and use bought us the sweet, warm, singing tone that is captured in your video comparison. I believe the reissue will do the same.
Great playing. For me, the reissue actually sounds a good deal better. Especially through the vintage cab and speaker.
As much tone chasing as we all do with guitars and pickups, I'm a believer that the hands are the most important factor, followed by the amp, then the pups, and lastly the wood. That's my opinion.
I actually prefer the sharper sound of the Re-issue. I know...it surprised me too. could have something to do with the open chords played for the sample however. When playing really clean jazz chords or blues chords....perhaps I would feel different. Both amps are amazing however. One is affordable...and the other is not...lol...so my thoughts go with the Re-issue here. The variations of tone can be altered by the tone knob on the guitar so much that the brightness of the Re-issue can be matched to the older one I believe. I'm a tone chaser also...however it gets to the point where how you dial in the guitar is as much important as the amp you're using. You can't simply plug things in and say which is better...it has too much to do with how you dial it all up on both the amp and guitar together.
There are a LOT of changed components on the "old" amp board, the PT wiring is funky and certainly not factory stock. Unusual to do an A/B new vs original when the "original" amp isn't original.
The tone in these amps is in the RS output transformer, tubes and the driver.
You tell 'em, Banker!
They have some differences for sure, the reissue is brighter, and the old one a bit more mellow but they seem to have a similar character and breakup. I'd be happy with either.
Awesome video. No dislikes!!!
Put a scumback speaker in the reissue. These speakers emulate the pre rola era greenbacks which are much less bright.
@6:32 and 13:13, 6:32 being the old amp by itself and 13:13 the new amp with old speaker, Cloth and tubes, Very very hard to tell the difference, I believe its a matter of old tubes and the old speaker/ cloth, That basically puts you right in the vintage ball park listen for yourselves Please add any comments i'd like to hear what you think. Again it sound very very close to me. Still a tad brighter but right in the pocket.
This is like taking a fender 60s silver face amp and turning back into a fender 60s black amp. Peace, Flood!
I'm curious if the old amp's transformer is registering a lower voltage....sounds like the tubes aren't driven quite as hard on the original....loved both...and the beard!
Guarantee that is a major part
I'm wondering if the reissue is running at a higher voltage....definitely sounds hotter. luv 'em both.
That was really cool - did you ever get around to doing the practice amp video ? If so I haven't found it on your channel.
No matter what you do, the re-issue has no separation of tone. It can't get the low growl and the smooth upper mids at the same time like the original. Never will. That is the beauty of vintage gear; the older components, wire, connectors, chassis and all else are what make the sound, not just the tubes, speaker and box.
It sounds to me that the old tubes have a little less gain and hence not as bright.
can you try it with RCA tubes or GE tubes?
best channel ever
Yes and we need more videos, once a week would be sweet can't get enough of the old timers knowledge.
Great and convincing review, thanks! So, reissue head (like a 2061) and look for an old cabinet, so you get the bite of the new with the mellow tone of the speaker? Maybe there are also some newer speakers out there that bring the smoothness one may look for. As far as tubes are concerned...
Perhaps I'm used to trying to make a guitar heard in a thick rock mix as opposed to just hearing guitar in isolation, but, like some other commentators, I actually would prefer to play through the newer one, which I think will pop through a mix better.
The greatest difference seems to be in the speaker/cabinet to my ears. I actually like the newer speaker sound but I wonder how long it would take before it starts to sound more like the old one? It might even be possible to "age" a speaker but I have no idea how that would be done other than just playing through it.
The original has more warmth to it. Unquestionably. But when's the last time it was retubed? Its rolled-off highs could just be tired tubes. Both amps sound great.
The cab/ speaker has a bigger impact than the actual circuit. Which makes sense
I go reissue, the old one has a slightly muted sound mainly due to the grille cloth which back in the day was hard wearing but has no acoustic qualitiies, that stuff was used on London buses for goodness sake so I've read, hardly a suitable product for a sound/acoustic instrument like an amp.
i miss seeing you guys : ) comeback on the horizon?
THIS is quality entertainment
Observation 1. IMO, the speakers are very close, the old one was able to basically replicate the brighter top end of the new amp. Observation 2. The Mullards rule! They brought out that awesome growl in the lower end. Observation 3. I think you guys are on to something about the old "played in "vs new. I suspect the old one was brighter when it was new. Bottom line is they don't make tubes like they used to, and NOS vintage tubes are disappearing fast.
The sound we hear is subjective, so to me the original amp sounded warmer and had a better tone.
I think the old tubes in the new amp going through the original cab and speaker sounded nice too.
I'm wondering if the original cab was made with tone wood that has really opened up with age like an old guitar.
Could that be part of what I hear? Anyhow great guitar playing and the Heritage sounds great!
Old transformer, old caps, broken in pre-rola speaker, old wood in the cabinet, etc. there's no way the new one can compare. It didn't sound bad but it wasn't in the same ball park. I've played one of the new hand wired 1974s and I was really disappointed. Maybe yours was better but the reissue I played sounded a bit brittle and dry. Yours had a little of that but not as bad. Maybe that's the difference between live and video. Also the grill cloth can make a difference especially if it has any rubber in it, like the original Clapton combos. Even cane grill cloth will dampen some of the higher frequencies. Anyway, thanks for making the video! As usual I enjoyed your video, comments and playing.
man you guys got alot of money invested in your gear and guitars and honestly im a little jealous of some of your guitars i could never afford any of them oh well maybe in my next life
What kind of 12AX7's are in the re-issue amp? I think the tubes/speaker make the biggest difference. When you guys played the re-issue with the speaker and tubes from the old amp it really sounded a lot like the vintage amp. A tad bit different but very, very close. Mullard tubes are known for being less bright and more mid-focused so that would be my guess as to why the reissue was brighter vs the vintage.
Old component values will drift giving a different sound.
I just happen to have a 20w G12M,Pulsonic,that would be perfect for this amp! New amp,into the old cab and speaker,answer the question for me.
using the exact same tube array, what are voltages: B+, plate, cathode, grids....also resistor values(are the old ones in spec or have they drifted), and the various capcitor compositions....after that, output transformer specs/construction, and of course speaker.
also, while the demo clip is playing, it would be helpful if you left the identifying info up on the screen for the duration....
IMHO it would be rather to add a couple of minutes with using the same brand new stock tubes as in reissue.
Thanks for the great video.
I liked the reissue...
wow after the tubes it came really close
Changing to the old tubes made the reissue sound closer to the original.
To my ears...It's seems that the amp hard-wired components made the most difference (as opposed to the speaker/cab/tubes)...I thought that the old 1974x and the old 1974x into the new speaker/enclosure sounded the closest...not so much the other way around...
this show the speaker is making the biggest difference overall.
I'm going to say that it was that fact that the capacitors from the old amp have lost some of their value, and so have the resistors. Also, I doubt the tolerances on the old Marshalls pots are even near 20%. I bet they aren't even close. I am going to go with electronics. And if the new Marshall is not hand soldered, but is PCB then it is going to have a brighter sound in my experience due to the tolerances being closer.
When you say those parts have lost some of their value, what do you mean? Have the electrolitics developed higher or lower capacitance or changed their ESR value? Are coupling caps leaking DC onto the grids? Have resistors drifted up or down? I'm trying to learn this stuff so any help is gratefully accepted . My admittedly small experience so far restoring some basket case vintage Fenders is that replacing out of spec electronic parts with new good quality parts that are within tolerance make the amp better. Putting new speakers and modern tubes in place of old good speakers and NOS vintage tubes generally makes them worse. The electronics bit is baffling me. So many people say what you say but I don't really understand.
Guitar Mythbusters
The speaker was a big factor. Tubes will be another one.
would it be possible that the reissue's speaker was not as broken in as the older amp causing it to be brighter?
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A variac of would help the cause for the new amp I hear.
From where im siting why would you want to make the new one sound like the old one. It probably will in 30 years ps love the playing
in my opinion the old amp through the new speaker and cab sound closest, But it still doesn't sound has good as the vintage over all. I can only put this down to years of the amp working and the speaker being pushed over time. perhaps in 40 years time the reissue will sound has good as the vintage. if played regular only in my opinion.
Thanks Guys
doug i wish you would incorporate a tele into this type of video, a les paul just sounds like a les paul whereas a tele can be anything you want it to be. The old 1974x sounds astonishing , im not as fussed on the new one , its way too harsh for me.
Cool beans
I would take the reissue and throw an alnico 12 on it and call it good !
Old amp run into new speaker sounds gritty as sound board oscillates more.I think I prefer the old amp box and speaker better.
D&P do the shirts run small? You only sell L - obese and I'm not there...yet ;)
Great episode... Speaker break in and tranny swap may get closer. Last phase would be nos caps but now you are in insanity territory.
there are minimal diffences if you get a new one for a good price than take it.
New amp stock sounds too Vox for a marshall.
to me the 74 marshall sounds ALOT better than the reissue ( god I hate that term). its not as bright, to me its mellower with a sweetness no new amp has been able to achieve. the reissue ( ugh) while not horrible sounding was very bright and had grittiness to it. you could tell a distinct improvement with the older tubes but still not as good as the 74. one factor at play here I think is the older amps have carbon comp resistors in the circuitry. carbon comps change over time due to heat exposure. even when new their values drift when the amp heats up. combine that with the fact that certain capacitor values used in 74 might not be available today ( like the .045 uf electrolytics used in the bassman power supply from the late 50's).I haven't read any of the comments yet so this is my opinion untainted by other speculation. of the 2 amps id rather the 74 and not because its vintage. to me it sounds better. the word reissue needs to be stricken from the vocabulary. I don't care what you do, you'll NEVER make a new amp sound like the 1 its modeled after,.you can get close but close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades
The reissue was way too bright and piercing. The old amp much warmer. The speaker change and tubes warmed up the reissue enough to make it sound great. (to my ears) Before the swap I would not want that reissue at all. After, its completely usable, still a hair brighter but not so much that it would make any difference to me.
The two sounds I liked the least we're the reissue and the vintage amps. The mix and match sounds were, to my ear , better. The reissue was too bright, the vintage amp too dark. Go figure!
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