I actually agree with Janeway’s decision to give the Hirogen holodeck tech. She made that agreement as the only way to save her crew, not just as a way of making an alliance like with the Kazon. In this one situation, it was the right thing to do and I doubt she could have predicted how it’d turn out for the Hirogen. Anyway, it’s not like they haven’t left a trail of Starfleet tech across the Delta Quadrant that anyone could find, it wasn’t long ago they let some guy walk off the ship with a phaser rifle!
I wish we would've seen more of that kind of rules bending in the show. That sometimes not strictly following Federation rules and applying them by the spirit of the law and not the letter is appropriate.
I think the key difference between giving tech to the Kazon vs giving tech to the Hirogen is that, in general, Kazon tech seems to be about a century or so behind Starfleet. Giving them replicators could lead to all sorts of breakthroughs and innovations in addition to the advantage of weaponised replicators. The Hirogen, for the most part, seem to be more or less on par with Starfleet. They just never took an interest in holographic technology until their society had already stagnated
Yeah. In addition, replicators can produce anything, weapons included. And it wouldn’t of solved their systemic issues since replicators require power to function. Something the Voyager itself could barely manage for the first season and something the Kazon could never of produced in their given circumstances.
i've heard that the holodecks also possess energy-to-matter converters similar to replicators. the scenery, being static objects, is actually created of physical matter, not photonic energy to reduce repetitive calculations/computer processing.
I'm sure there is some technobabble that could get around it. Maybe the scenery, by being "stationary" is of much more solid construction and similar to a replicated fabrication. The items and people, being something meant to move and be utilized throughout the environment, are of much less solid construction. I'm sure Klingon Neelix has an answer.
In TNG, S1E1 Encounter at Farpoint, Data explains to Riker that the scenery is not actually holographic but mostly real and generated via transporter technology. I Couldn't find a TH-cam Clip but it's at the 57 min mark in the episode, after the two meet on the holodeck.
If I ran Starfleet Security, I would insist on having holographic coverage of every square centimeter of every single ship. Oh, we've been boarded on deck eight? Guess what, forty security officers with bazookas have just appeared out of thin air on either side of them! Phasers on the fritz? Computer, give us some machine pistols!
My thoughts exactly! They don't even need to be officers. Can't the holo-emitters just make bullets and give them velocity instantly? Like, spawn them just outside the target and then force them in, or do that with spikes that just extend out of nowhere. Or spawn cages around the intruders. Swarm them with holo-bees, holo-hornets, giant holo-hornets
i wonder what happens to admiral janeway's commission when some hirogen comes flying out of the delta quadrant with federation technology that she was supposed to rather blow up the ship than let anyone else take. a fine trophy indeed.
If you put holo emitters on the outside of a ship and didn't use safeties could you project a fleet of infinitely replaceable holographic drones with functional weapons to act as an escort?
@@wendyheatherwood Guess that depends on the range of the tech. And Janeway can always say the Hirogen stole the tech and she tried, but failed to get it back. Weasel her way out, just like how she got out of violating the prime directive and influencing a whole quadrant on multiple occasions.Guess destroying/severely reducing the Borg is worth something. Starfleet seems to be rather lenient to crimes if they were done to save the Federation. They did the same with Kirk. Stealing the Enterprise for personal reasons is okay, if you use it to save Earth afterwards.
@@wendyheatherwood The weapons of the holo-drones would only have as much power as the main ship could generate (minus the power needed to sustain the drones at a distance) They would draw some of the enemies fire though.
@@wendyheatherwood Holograms, with the safety protocols disengaged, have a history of developing self-awareness, setting their own agenda, and not responding to shutdown commands.
@Mecharnie Dobbs Yeah, the real ship would have to be generating a lot of power. The best way to do it would be to make the drones copies of the real ship, then try and keep the drones in the way of the other ship's line of sight as much as possible so they'd take most of the hits. Advanced enough scanners would probably be able to tell that there was one real ship projecting the others, but it would be enough to confuse some enemies.
Ah PP...a poor guy who was born into a society, that cleary didn´t welcome P&P or even LARP...all he ever wanted was to sit in a dark basement with friends and dice...I feel for him.
Technology wise the Kazon didn't even have transporters they would have been giving them the entire technology tree, skipping both generators of technological advancement and the cultural adjustment that went along with it The Hirogen already had transporters and (probably) replicators and were otherwise a very advanced species but just with a bit of a gap in their technology, the impact is maybe a few years of research and minor impact. A similar example would be the a Federation officer handing a phaser to a Klingon. Klingons already have disruptors, your not advancing their military strength or greatly advancing their science but a phaser has far more utility then a disruptor.
Again, they missed an awesome chance to have the doc use some wily moves to be an offensive powerhouse, hes a hologram , he isn't programmed to feel pain or get damaged. He could have just infiltrated them with a stick with dog poop at the end of it and made them surrender.
I can’t afford patreon, however Acting LT Sirixa again thanks you and I think Tommy Toughnuts and Billy Badass would make great names. I have been thanking you from the beginning of this series and once again, your encapsulation of the philosophical elements are spot on. Thank you and I laughed out loud.
I always liked this episode because it reminds me of the endings of both Pee-Wee's Big Adventure and Blazing Saddles; with some sequences just overflowing with various themes/genres just all mashed together in a big brawl. Just fun nonsense!
did they remove all the holo emitters after this episode? I mean, the Doc needs to continue to use the Mobile Emitter, even though the Harry and the Hirogen managed to install them in pretty much the entire ship.
i heard that someone stranded in the woods intentionally started a forest fire to get himself found. the logic being that it's better to face possible punishment than expire while following the laws. she may have broken federation law... but do you think she would regret it while on trial? no.
I'll be judging other captains (or commanders) to the same standards when we get around to them, but I can tell you now that Picard will not be coming out of the Save Wesley episode unscathed. In answer to the OP, they're *probably* a violation of regulations, but not necessarily Prime Directive. Whilst this event does potentially impact the development of their species, it was a request from a spacefaring civilisation that doesn't affect their base-level abilities (which was the PD stumbling block in Prototype).
I would say that the holo technology is a lot less dangerous to give to the Hirogen than replicator technology to the Kazon. My reasoning being that if we ignore the obvious weaponry and what not, the replicators can produce, giving one section of one species the ability to generate unlimited food and water, especially one as violent as the Kazon, would lead to them taking over the rest of the sects, and quite possibly have dire ramifications for the rest of civilization in that area of space. Whereas the holotechnology is relatively harmless, and can't really be used to nearly the same extent.
Oh how i wish the Hirogen turned colors like an octopus! Not just as camo but with their emotional state as well. I know it was beyond the effects dept at the time but wouldn't that be so cool 😎 Thanks again for another enjoyable review 😁👍you are appreciated
Despite its problems I liked this episode. It does show Janeway really doesn't consider holographic people as 'alive' though (Which reinforces her speech from an earlier episode, about the Doctor just being a piece of tech like the replicator). She had to know there is no way the Hirogen would be satisfied with hunting holograms who were not sentient and sapient enough to feel fear and pain for real. For her there is no moral dilemma, it's a case of "Here, have this thing that could save your society so you can hunt and kill for longer". I'm still convinced the extra decorations and trophies in her ready room are really hers. The Hirogen found them in one of her 'treasure boxes' and just hung them up while thinking "Dang this Janeway is f*cked up".
Something I really liked about the Beaker Nazi's fascism speech to Jr. Hirogen around 9:32 is how the fascist monologue uses terminology which should seem like gibberish to a Hirogen ('Christian saviour', 'God of the Jews', etc.), which would only further illustrate the illusory nature of the one giving the speech, but Jr. Hirogen is convinced by it anyway. I read this as an acknowledgement of how universally appealing fascist rhetoric can be; fascists don't necessarily care about who is being oppressed, they just want to be the ones on top. Any rhetoric that appeals to a fascist's sense of superiority, even if it makes no sense, is often enough to earn their loyalty. This continues to be demonstrated by far-right political figures, who increasingly don't even try to construct sound arguments (or in some cases, complete sentences).
This would have to be one of the most blatantly contrived excuses for something to occupy run-time that the Voyager showrunners ever crapped out. About the only redeeming quality is that it seems like Shakespeare in comparison to Star Trek Discovery. But then so does literally anything.
True, but I think extremist *anything* (left or right) tends to favor authoritarianism, censorship and violence. Its not the position on the spectrum, its the "extremist" part that matters.
@@kerravon4159 It's not the left that targets minorities and poor people and always defends abuse and oppression and atrocity. It isn't the left that fights to uphold systems of social relations that privilege the few at the expense of the overwhelming many. In my opinion it's fairly self-evident that horseshoe theory, the idea you're referring to, is little more than one specific element within a broader category of bunk designed to make people feel like fighting back against their oppression is as bad as being the oppressor. I mean, it doesn't even make any logical sense to insinuate that fervent belief in palingenetic ultranationalistic, xenophobic, hyper individualistic, homophobic, transphobic, racist, misogynist or otherwise bigoted and destructive ideas somehow isn't obviously going to lead to worse results than fervent belief that all those things are harmful and that the current socio-economic order needs to be changed to be more just and kind.
as for Janeway getting a gun in the corridor, we know she stashes guns all over the ship, maybe she thought no crew would notice it!
I actually agree with Janeway’s decision to give the Hirogen holodeck tech. She made that agreement as the only way to save her crew, not just as a way of making an alliance like with the Kazon. In this one situation, it was the right thing to do and I doubt she could have predicted how it’d turn out for the Hirogen. Anyway, it’s not like they haven’t left a trail of Starfleet tech across the Delta Quadrant that anyone could find, it wasn’t long ago they let some guy walk off the ship with a phaser rifle!
I wish we would've seen more of that kind of rules bending in the show. That sometimes not strictly following Federation rules and applying them by the spirit of the law and not the letter is appropriate.
That phaser rifle was deactivated in transport. He's going to be a very unhappy alien, and not just because he didn't get his warp coil.
Seven is used to having Borg plot armor so it’s understandable she’d forget she doesn’t have science wobbly invulnerability shields
Ha I do enjoy space dog and the computer's interactions in the transporter.
I think the key difference between giving tech to the Kazon vs giving tech to the Hirogen is that, in general, Kazon tech seems to be about a century or so behind Starfleet. Giving them replicators could lead to all sorts of breakthroughs and innovations in addition to the advantage of weaponised replicators. The Hirogen, for the most part, seem to be more or less on par with Starfleet. They just never took an interest in holographic technology until their society had already stagnated
Yeah. In addition, replicators can produce anything, weapons included.
And it wouldn’t of solved their systemic issues since replicators require power to function. Something the Voyager itself could barely manage for the first season and something the Kazon could never of produced in their given circumstances.
Today's thought experiment: If Seven's grenade damages anything holographic, why was the scenery unaffected?
i've heard that the holodecks also possess energy-to-matter converters similar to replicators.
the scenery, being static objects, is actually created of physical matter, not photonic energy to reduce repetitive calculations/computer processing.
I'm sure there is some technobabble that could get around it. Maybe the scenery, by being "stationary" is of much more solid construction and similar to a replicated fabrication. The items and people, being something meant to move and be utilized throughout the environment, are of much less solid construction. I'm sure Klingon Neelix has an answer.
@@PyrokineticFire1I think that's essentially the explanation for food and drinks on the holodeck, as well as Picard getting hit with a snowball
In TNG, S1E1 Encounter at Farpoint, Data explains to Riker that the scenery is not actually holographic but mostly real and generated via transporter technology. I Couldn't find a TH-cam Clip but it's at the 57 min mark in the episode, after the two meet on the holodeck.
Stience?
If I ran Starfleet Security, I would insist on having holographic coverage of every square centimeter of every single ship. Oh, we've been boarded on deck eight? Guess what, forty security officers with bazookas have just appeared out of thin air on either side of them! Phasers on the fritz? Computer, give us some machine pistols!
My thoughts exactly! They don't even need to be officers. Can't the holo-emitters just make bullets and give them velocity instantly? Like, spawn them just outside the target and then force them in, or do that with spikes that just extend out of nowhere. Or spawn cages around the intruders. Swarm them with holo-bees, holo-hornets, giant holo-hornets
haha 7:46 He even has 2 sad faces on the same face at the one time
I was waiting for part 2. It's finally here. Shoutout to spacedog.
Only Spacedog could get away with treating us like that and we still keep coming back for more :D
i wonder what happens to admiral janeway's commission when some hirogen comes flying out of the delta quadrant with federation technology that she was supposed to rather blow up the ship than let anyone else take.
a fine trophy indeed.
If you put holo emitters on the outside of a ship and didn't use safeties could you project a fleet of infinitely replaceable holographic drones with functional weapons to act as an escort?
@@wendyheatherwood Guess that depends on the range of the tech.
And Janeway can always say the Hirogen stole the tech and she tried, but failed to get it back. Weasel her way out, just like how she got out of violating the prime directive and influencing a whole quadrant on multiple occasions.Guess destroying/severely reducing the Borg is worth something.
Starfleet seems to be rather lenient to crimes if they were done to save the Federation. They did the same with Kirk. Stealing the Enterprise for personal reasons is okay, if you use it to save Earth afterwards.
@@wendyheatherwood The weapons of the holo-drones would only have as much power as the main ship could generate (minus the power needed to sustain the drones at a distance)
They would draw some of the enemies fire though.
@@wendyheatherwood Holograms, with the safety protocols disengaged, have a history of developing self-awareness, setting their own agenda, and not responding to shutdown commands.
@Mecharnie Dobbs Yeah, the real ship would have to be generating a lot of power.
The best way to do it would be to make the drones copies of the real ship, then try and keep the drones in the way of the other ship's line of sight as much as possible so they'd take most of the hits. Advanced enough scanners would probably be able to tell that there was one real ship projecting the others, but it would be enough to confuse some enemies.
Ah PP...a poor guy who was born into a society, that cleary didn´t welcome P&P or even LARP...all he ever wanted was to sit in a dark basement with friends and dice...I feel for him.
The Hirogen leader surely shows to be a mostly intelligent person.
Technology wise the Kazon didn't even have transporters they would have been giving them the entire technology tree, skipping both generators of technological advancement and the cultural adjustment that went along with it
The Hirogen already had transporters and (probably) replicators and were otherwise a very advanced species but just with a bit of a gap in their technology, the impact is maybe a few years of research and minor impact.
A similar example would be the a Federation officer handing a phaser to a Klingon. Klingons already have disruptors, your not advancing their military strength or greatly advancing their science but a phaser has far more utility then a disruptor.
Again, they missed an awesome chance to have the doc use some wily moves to be an offensive powerhouse, hes a hologram , he isn't programmed to feel pain or get damaged. He could have just infiltrated them with a stick with dog poop at the end of it and made them surrender.
i look forward to part 3 of this story to discuss the further reaching morality of Janeway sharing that hologram tech.
They'll have it at the same time as the Tuvix de-brief.
@@BintyMcFrazzles i was referring to the season 7 2-parter "flesh and blood" ep 9+10
Beaker from the muppets lol
I can’t afford patreon, however Acting LT Sirixa again thanks you and I think Tommy Toughnuts and Billy Badass would make great names. I have been thanking you from the beginning of this series and once again, your encapsulation of the philosophical elements are spot on. Thank you and I laughed out loud.
Even just by liking, subscribing and commenting helps.
Presumably, the soldier that was partially deleted would have had a gun next to him. I think that's the gun Janeway grabs
The Hirogen escaped just in Time befor General Leclerc would have finished them off.
I always liked this episode because it reminds me of the endings of both Pee-Wee's Big Adventure and Blazing Saddles; with some sequences just overflowing with various themes/genres just all mashed together in a big brawl. Just fun nonsense!
did they remove all the holo emitters after this episode? I mean, the Doc needs to continue to use the Mobile Emitter, even though the Harry and the Hirogen managed to install them in pretty much the entire ship.
Are Janeway's actions a violation of the prime directive or some other federation law?
In general or just this episode?
Because yes.
@@wendyheatherwood lol, great answer.
i heard that someone stranded in the woods intentionally started a forest fire to get himself found.
the logic being that it's better to face possible punishment than expire while following the laws.
she may have broken federation law... but do you think she would regret it while on trial? no.
I'll be judging other captains (or commanders) to the same standards when we get around to them, but I can tell you now that Picard will not be coming out of the Save Wesley episode unscathed.
In answer to the OP, they're *probably* a violation of regulations, but not necessarily Prime Directive. Whilst this event does potentially impact the development of their species, it was a request from a spacefaring civilisation that doesn't affect their base-level abilities (which was the PD stumbling block in Prototype).
I would say that the holo technology is a lot less dangerous to give to the Hirogen than replicator technology to the Kazon. My reasoning being that if we ignore the obvious weaponry and what not, the replicators can produce, giving one section of one species the ability to generate unlimited food and water, especially one as violent as the Kazon, would lead to them taking over the rest of the sects, and quite possibly have dire ramifications for the rest of civilization in that area of space. Whereas the holotechnology is relatively harmless, and can't really be used to nearly the same extent.
Oh how i wish the Hirogen turned colors like an octopus! Not just as camo but with their emotional state as well. I know it was beyond the effects dept at the time but wouldn't that be so cool 😎
Thanks again for another enjoyable review 😁👍you are appreciated
Machine guns do have a stun setting you just have to aim at the feet
Despite its problems I liked this episode.
It does show Janeway really doesn't consider holographic people as 'alive' though (Which reinforces her speech from an earlier episode, about the Doctor just being a piece of tech like the replicator). She had to know there is no way the Hirogen would be satisfied with hunting holograms who were not sentient and sapient enough to feel fear and pain for real. For her there is no moral dilemma, it's a case of "Here, have this thing that could save your society so you can hunt and kill for longer".
I'm still convinced the extra decorations and trophies in her ready room are really hers. The Hirogen found them in one of her 'treasure boxes' and just hung them up while thinking "Dang this Janeway is f*cked up".
Just saying. The klingons entering a big fight is the best part. We don't get enough Klingons killing people with their funny swords
Can we rename space dog and change his name to bobo?
Space Dog (All praise His doggyness!) must be protected at all costs.
@@ptonpc All hail spacedog!
Something I really liked about the Beaker Nazi's fascism speech to Jr. Hirogen around 9:32 is how the fascist monologue uses terminology which should seem like gibberish to a Hirogen ('Christian saviour', 'God of the Jews', etc.), which would only further illustrate the illusory nature of the one giving the speech, but Jr. Hirogen is convinced by it anyway. I read this as an acknowledgement of how universally appealing fascist rhetoric can be; fascists don't necessarily care about who is being oppressed, they just want to be the ones on top. Any rhetoric that appeals to a fascist's sense of superiority, even if it makes no sense, is often enough to earn their loyalty. This continues to be demonstrated by far-right political figures, who increasingly don't even try to construct sound arguments (or in some cases, complete sentences).
I wonder how long it will take to fix the damage to voyager. So many plot holes 😮 at least Janeway got her guns back.
This would have to be one of the most blatantly contrived excuses for something to occupy run-time that the Voyager showrunners ever crapped out. About the only redeeming quality is that it seems like Shakespeare in comparison to Star Trek Discovery. But then so does literally anything.
The Muppets scientist assistant who doesn't speak. At least not in any Earth languages at the end with his nazzzz 😬iii🤓bro... 🤔 😬 🤣
I think your comment on the violence used by the far right is a bit misleading when you see the violence used by the far left is much more prevalent.
Unless you are referring to right hooks and left hooks, I may be missing sarcasm somewhere.
The Nazi Defender™ has logged on.
True, but I think extremist *anything* (left or right) tends to favor authoritarianism, censorship and violence. Its not the position on the spectrum, its the "extremist" part that matters.
I'd love to know what credible, impartial data source you're using for the statement that far left violence is "much more prevalent" than far right.
@@kerravon4159 It's not the left that targets minorities and poor people and always defends abuse and oppression and atrocity. It isn't the left that fights to uphold systems of social relations that privilege the few at the expense of the overwhelming many. In my opinion it's fairly self-evident that horseshoe theory, the idea you're referring to, is little more than one specific element within a broader category of bunk designed to make people feel like fighting back against their oppression is as bad as being the oppressor. I mean, it doesn't even make any logical sense to insinuate that fervent belief in palingenetic ultranationalistic, xenophobic, hyper individualistic, homophobic, transphobic, racist, misogynist or otherwise bigoted and destructive ideas somehow isn't obviously going to lead to worse results than fervent belief that all those things are harmful and that the current socio-economic order needs to be changed to be more just and kind.