The band No Blues transitions from American blues music to Arabic Maqams seamlessly. I wonder if they are using this knowledge. There is definitely connection between western blues and middle eastern music even though they sound completely different.
The combination of Arabic microtonality with 'well-tempered' tonality - or vice versa - sounds to my ear not only incredibly exciting, but musically forward-looking and fascinating in a completely new way! Thank you for this video!
Thank you Tarek! Really mind-blowing! I was researching amazing connections between 12 notes of chromatic scale and rhythms in 12/8 time but your discovery piles even more wonders on the top.
This dominant seventh chord being popular in Black music such as jazz, blues, soul, gospel etc. makes sense when you view it in the historical context. There was a lot of cultural mixing between Arabic and African cultures before the trans-atlantic slave trade. The Africans who were later enslaved and brought to America passed their cultural knowledge from their homeland to their children, and generations later you can still hear the influences.
this probably means you can use or develop new maqam to play jazz standards as maqamat, with each chord progression laying out the ajnas that are playable with each section of the melody. very doable i think, with how both styles function, but jazz's way of transmitting melodic tendencies and patterns, pedagogically, is already pretty much listening and transcription-based along with the theory. drawing a Sami abu shumays style maqam map for, say a blues solo, can be one way of illustrating the different playable modes. for example i think within a blues, dominant 7 sharp 9 chords are also compatible with a jins upper rast because of the obscured minor/major third. since harmony is just a way of conceptualizing melodic behavior and progression just like maqam, there are a lot of similarities.
I agree there are a lot of possibilities to be discovered and all depend on which method you choose to use to get to a particular outcome. In "Footprints/So What" video I try similar things you mentioned as in adapting the chord progression to fit the melody and vice versa.
@@TarekYamani i think the idea that jazz standards are actually just "tunes" rather than a strict melody with strict sequence of chord progression really supports this idea. (i think the good thing about unique jazz renditions is that each composer is able to internalize and process the melodies according to their vocabulary and habits.) , and since the ajnas are really more precisely groups of melodic ideas than simply "parts of a scale", the levels of nuance that this affords someone melodically makes it extremely possible to replicate and expand on the melodic ideas in jazz standards, since other musical traditions share some of the same ideas and more. [i am sort of high, sorry for the rambling] i will definitely check out that song you mentioned
This overlap between the jazz chord and the maqam scale arises as a result of playing the regular chord shape on a keyboard set up with a 24-TET layout, but the two are otherwise unrelated, and can hardly be combined in a musically meaningful way. One interesting possibility for utilizing the 24-TET system within the context of the chord could be to use the extra notes to play the harmonic (#)11th (11th key from the tonic) and the harmonic 13th (17th key from the tonic), both of which are about a quartertone flat compared to their 12-TET approximations. A scale could then be built using the neutral seconds these notes form with their neighbors, thereby integrating a recognizably Middle Eastern melodic interval within the Western harmonic framework.
What? You basically said “they are related in this specific way that he demonstrated, but are otherwise unrelated”. The chord shapes arise from the intervals between the pitches, so there is an inherent mathematical relationship between them beyond just how they fall on the keyboard.
@@tehmightymo No, here's what I'm actually saying. What he demonstrated was what the intervals in the 12-TET keyboard mapping translate into in a 24-TET keyboard mapping. He showed how the #11 chord in the 12-TET mapping becomes the Rast scale in 24-TET mapping, but this is pure coincidence, and has nothing to do with math per se. I suggested using the 24-TET division to play a more harmonically in-tune #11 or harmonic 13 chord instead, by lowering both the #11 and the 13 by a quartertone, while keeping the rest as they are in 12-TET. You can listen to a demonstration of a harmonically pure (just intonation) 13th chord chord with roughly quartertone flat #11 and 13 here: th-cam.com/video/Fzp9br8K9Us/w-d-xo.htmlsi=bqv39yUZv4irWSTp
I have never been a fan of eastern music and the expanded scale used for music - it always sounded dissonant to me. I have been curious about how the western scales sound to eastern musicians and if the limited note scales sound lacking in tone, since they do not cover the full eastern note scale. Curious how people raised on the eastern note scale "hear" the western music scale when they first encounter it. Again my thoughts are, the western scale would sound very incomplete. I'd love your comments on this observation.
MIddle eastern music also uses modes that are very similar to western modes as well, so they're probably all used to hearing songs and pieces that lack the quarter tones. Middle eastern music is less focused on scales (you hear a lot fewer full-octave scale runs), and more focused on tetrachords (jins/ajnas). Thus to the middle eastern ear, I guess the western modes are about as weird as the western modes are to us. (Keep in mind, we also have a chromatic scale that has more notes than the modes, yet we don't hear C# and D# as lacking in a piece in C major). One related question, though - I have nearly never heard any middle eastern music that sounded pentatonic. Western listeners by now are fairly familiar with pentatonic sounds (so we perceive the pentatonic scales as nice and melodic and smooth). Whatwith the two augmented seconds in there* and lack of minor and neutral seconds, I would think middle eastern musicians would actually find pentatonic scales to be lacking. * This is a hill I'll die on. The minor pentatonic consists of an augmented second, two major seconds, an augmented second, and a major second.
I grew up with all kind of music, since I'm from Indonesia, I was exposed to arabic, western, indian, and many more. To me personally after few observations, the western music tends to lean more on the harmony, mutiple notes playing together in harmony, while arabic and indian music leans more on the one complex melody, and the notes are often not limited by anything that sounds good playing at the same time. To me, melodically western music mostly sounds too predictable and simple to my ear, while eastern music especially arab and india melodically so fascinatingly complex and ornamented, but then again they are not restricted by what is harmonious or not.
Hi Tarek, just discovered your channel trying to search pianos that are not 12 tone, and i discover this TET by watching your video. its quite interesting that i think it would be hard to make music with 24tet, i think chords would sound 'off' or mayb ejust because we are so used to 12 tone scale which sounds more 'listenable'. are you aware of any other scales that are more 'musical' that conducive to chords and such? im a musician trying to push boundaries...
Thank you for your perspective - this is exactly what I had suspected. Western music is so limited in the number of sounds and would appear too simplistic to an eastern trained ear ! When I think Dave Brubeck (Take 5, Unsquare Dance) tunes are "weird" in that they use a 5 or 7 beat measure or other non 3,4 or even beat counting schemes - this is nothing in comparison to the Indian rhythms using 20+ count measures and drum beat patterns. I had not noticed the lack of eastern music's use of harmonies - and find this a rather startling revelation to me that I had not noticed before. Again, thank you for your perspectives. I will need to listen to more eastern music, as I now have a better perspective on what to be listening for. Jim
super interesting video, youre a freakin musical genius i swear 😭 are you importing tuning files to get the 24 equal temperament and 12 unequal temperament? ive been trying to figure out the best way to be able to play makams on keys, still figuring it out
Thank youuuu :D It's very easy to do this, which software do you use? Anything which reads scala files (.scl) or TUN files will do the job. Here I use tun files in Omnisphere.
I'm using Omnisphere here but you could also use Pianoteq or any software which understands kbm files (keyboard mapping so you can map the keyboard to 24t scale).
Rast is a bit tricky to play chords with (the trickiest out of microtone maqams). A rule of thumb would be to start experimenting with your D Major scale chords avoiding the half sharps/flats. Think dropping the 3rd note from a triad when needed, using sus chords and so on.
For every half-step/semitone, in-between each semitone there is what in the west they call a microtone. In western music there are 12 tones in the chromatic scale, but in arabic, turkish, persian, Indian, and other music of the east, they have the microtone, making the 12 tones of the western chromatic scale, a 24 tone chromatic scale in arabic music.
![Layth Sidiq Explains the Basics of Maqam [Highlight]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RxQdVxTSO3Y/mqdefault.jpg)
I think I have just discovered a genius ❤🎶
The band No Blues transitions from American blues music to Arabic Maqams seamlessly. I wonder if they are using this knowledge. There is definitely connection between western blues and middle eastern music even though they sound completely different.
Very great presentation!👍
The combination of Arabic microtonality with 'well-tempered' tonality - or vice versa - sounds to my ear not only incredibly exciting, but musically forward-looking and fascinating in a completely new way! Thank you for this video!
I loved this
awesome!! I have been wanting to use rast maqam with blues / jazz for years!!!!!!!
This was amazing. Thank you.
Thank you Tarek! Really mind-blowing! I was researching amazing connections between 12 notes of chromatic scale and rhythms in 12/8 time but your discovery piles even more wonders on the top.
Hey Pavel, YES I remember very well your clave to chromatic scale observations, so much more wonders to unpack.
Wow, wow, wow 😮 thank you!
Thats extremely interesting .. Am sure this information will lead to another helpful exploration .. 👏👌
You are superb man!!! Thank you very much for this video you made
It is a matter of factorisation and development
This dominant seventh chord being popular in Black music such as jazz, blues, soul, gospel etc. makes sense when you view it in the historical context. There was a lot of cultural mixing between Arabic and African cultures before the trans-atlantic slave trade. The Africans who were later enslaved and brought to America passed their cultural knowledge from their homeland to their children, and generations later you can still hear the influences.
Ever heard of the east coast slave trade....that the mixing you were thinking of?
thanks Tarek !
Brilliant.
Shukran! A really interesting video!
Best musical video i've seen in ages
Really 😅
Are you sure
Bravo maestro
🙏
this probably means you can use or develop new maqam to play jazz standards as maqamat, with each chord progression laying out the ajnas that are playable with each section of the melody. very doable i think, with how both styles function, but jazz's way of transmitting melodic tendencies and patterns, pedagogically, is already pretty much listening and transcription-based along with the theory. drawing a Sami abu shumays style maqam map for, say a blues solo, can be one way of illustrating the different playable modes. for example i think within a blues, dominant 7 sharp 9 chords are also compatible with a jins upper rast because of the obscured minor/major third. since harmony is just a way of conceptualizing melodic behavior and progression just like maqam, there are a lot of similarities.
I agree there are a lot of possibilities to be discovered and all depend on which method you choose to use to get to a particular outcome. In "Footprints/So What" video I try similar things you mentioned as in adapting the chord progression to fit the melody and vice versa.
@@TarekYamani i think the idea that jazz standards are actually just "tunes" rather than a strict melody with strict sequence of chord progression really supports this idea. (i think the good thing about unique jazz renditions is that each composer is able to internalize and process the melodies according to their vocabulary and habits.)
, and since the ajnas are really more precisely groups of melodic ideas than simply "parts of a scale", the levels of nuance that this affords someone melodically makes it extremely possible to replicate and expand on the melodic ideas in jazz standards, since other musical traditions share some of the same ideas and more.
[i am sort of high, sorry for the rambling]
i will definitely check out that song you mentioned
Wooowww, u just blew my mind
"what can you do with this information" .."I actually have no idea"....! hilarious...
This overlap between the jazz chord and the maqam scale arises as a result of playing the regular chord shape on a keyboard set up with a 24-TET layout, but the two are otherwise unrelated, and can hardly be combined in a musically meaningful way.
One interesting possibility for utilizing the 24-TET system within the context of the chord could be to use the extra notes to play the harmonic (#)11th (11th key from the tonic) and the harmonic 13th (17th key from the tonic), both of which are about a quartertone flat compared to their 12-TET approximations. A scale could then be built using the neutral seconds these notes form with their neighbors, thereby integrating a recognizably Middle Eastern melodic interval within the Western harmonic framework.
What? You basically said “they are related in this specific way that he demonstrated, but are otherwise unrelated”. The chord shapes arise from the intervals between the pitches, so there is an inherent mathematical relationship between them beyond just how they fall on the keyboard.
@@tehmightymo No, here's what I'm actually saying. What he demonstrated was what the intervals in the 12-TET keyboard mapping translate into in a 24-TET keyboard mapping. He showed how the #11 chord in the 12-TET mapping becomes the Rast scale in 24-TET mapping, but this is pure coincidence, and has nothing to do with math per se. I suggested using the 24-TET division to play a more harmonically in-tune #11 or harmonic 13 chord instead, by lowering both the #11 and the 13 by a quartertone, while keeping the rest as they are in 12-TET. You can listen to a demonstration of a harmonically pure (just intonation) 13th chord chord with roughly quartertone flat #11 and 13 here: th-cam.com/video/Fzp9br8K9Us/w-d-xo.htmlsi=bqv39yUZv4irWSTp
Very interesting. Awesome video.
another name for "Dominant 7 #11" chord (add 9 & 13) is "Acoustic scale" - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_scale (if we squash all notes to one octave)
true that though "Lydian dominant" or "Lydian b7" are the more common terms.
man, you just...🤯🤯
I have never been a fan of eastern music and the expanded scale used for music - it always sounded dissonant to me. I have been curious about how the western scales sound to eastern musicians and if the limited note scales sound lacking in tone, since they do not cover the full eastern note scale. Curious how people raised on the eastern note scale "hear" the western music scale when they first encounter it. Again my thoughts are, the western scale would sound very incomplete. I'd love your comments on this observation.
MIddle eastern music also uses modes that are very similar to western modes as well, so they're probably all used to hearing songs and pieces that lack the quarter tones. Middle eastern music is less focused on scales (you hear a lot fewer full-octave scale runs), and more focused on tetrachords (jins/ajnas). Thus to the middle eastern ear, I guess the western modes are about as weird as the western modes are to us. (Keep in mind, we also have a chromatic scale that has more notes than the modes, yet we don't hear C# and D# as lacking in a piece in C major).
One related question, though - I have nearly never heard any middle eastern music that sounded pentatonic. Western listeners by now are fairly familiar with pentatonic sounds (so we perceive the pentatonic scales as nice and melodic and smooth). Whatwith the two augmented seconds in there* and lack of minor and neutral seconds, I would think middle eastern musicians would actually find pentatonic scales to be lacking.
* This is a hill I'll die on. The minor pentatonic consists of an augmented second, two major seconds, an augmented second, and a major second.
I grew up with all kind of music, since I'm from Indonesia, I was exposed to arabic, western, indian, and many more. To me personally after few observations, the western music tends to lean more on the harmony, mutiple notes playing together in harmony, while arabic and indian music leans more on the one complex melody, and the notes are often not limited by anything that sounds good playing at the same time.
To me, melodically western music mostly sounds too predictable and simple to my ear, while eastern music especially arab and india melodically so fascinatingly complex and ornamented, but then again they are not restricted by what is harmonious or not.
ooh that's interesting
Tarek! Love this! What are you using to change the tuning of your keyboard?
Thanks Josh, anything which reads scala files (.scl) or TUN files will do the job. Here I use tun files in Omnisphere.
@@TarekYamani interesting thanks! ill look into that!
the... the well tempered scale?
Hi Tarek, just discovered your channel trying to search pianos that are not 12 tone, and i discover this TET by watching your video. its quite interesting that i think it would be hard to make music with 24tet, i think chords would sound 'off' or mayb ejust because we are so used to 12 tone scale which sounds more 'listenable'. are you aware of any other scales that are more 'musical' that conducive to chords and such? im a musician trying to push boundaries...
that's awesome
Thank you for your perspective - this is exactly what I had suspected. Western music is so limited in the number of sounds and would appear too simplistic to an eastern trained ear ! When I think Dave Brubeck (Take 5, Unsquare Dance) tunes are "weird" in that they use a 5 or 7 beat measure or other non 3,4 or even beat counting schemes - this is nothing in comparison to the Indian rhythms using 20+ count measures and drum beat patterns. I had not noticed the lack of eastern music's use of harmonies - and find this a rather startling revelation to me that I had not noticed before. Again, thank you for your perspectives. I will need to listen to more eastern music, as I now have a better perspective on what to be listening for.
Jim
Mindblown!!!
habibi el Mak
You are a gift 💖
Cool 👏👏👏
super interesting video, youre a freakin musical genius i swear 😭 are you importing tuning files to get the 24 equal temperament and 12 unequal temperament? ive been trying to figure out the best way to be able to play makams on keys, still figuring it out
Thank youuuu :D It's very easy to do this, which software do you use? Anything which reads scala files (.scl) or TUN files will do the job. Here I use tun files in Omnisphere.
Is there an Arabic jazz scene?
Wow!! 😮
Hi Tarek! great video! thank you for share this amazing information, I would like to know which soft or plugin you use for change the scale?
I'm using Omnisphere here but you could also use Pianoteq or any software which understands kbm files (keyboard mapping so you can map the keyboard to 24t scale).
@@TarekYamani great! thank you so much for the information
Wow
Mind blowing :-)
انا عاوز تقلي ازاي استخدمت الطريقة دي و ازاي الكورد ده هوا نفسو مقام الراست
Wait wtfff you're playing the in-between notes on a piano? Interesting.
Application this?
You are adorable.
Hi. Cool stuff.
Question: what chords would you put over a D rast scale?
Rast is a bit tricky to play chords with (the trickiest out of microtone maqams). A rule of thumb would be to start experimenting with your D Major scale chords avoiding the half sharps/flats. Think dropping the 3rd note from a triad when needed, using sus chords and so on.
@@KWAW47 like 9 months later 🤣🤣😆😆. Never too late right? Tx
@@issamchabaa45 haha.. you’re welcome!
but it feels different?
very
I dont understand what does it mean by 12 ton and 24 tone ????
For every half-step/semitone, in-between each semitone there is what in the west they call a microtone. In western music there are 12 tones in the chromatic scale, but in arabic, turkish, persian, Indian, and other music of the east, they have the microtone, making the 12 tones of the western chromatic scale, a 24 tone chromatic scale in arabic music.
Omg
Niceee! But unfortunately totally inaplicable on guitar for example.
Unless you use the guitar as a midi controller 😁
@@TarekYamani Haha, yes! Or possibly install the new fretboard with 24 tone system 😀
وبعدين !!😅😅 وقتك كثير ومو عارف تضيعه