Great video Preach, thank you. Here's an afterthought for those sitting here, like me.. wondering why they needed to change how Ignite spreads in the first place. Why are we changing this again? If they're so hell bent on capping the amount of targets AoE hits.. Why not keep Ignite working as it is on live, and just cap the targets it can spread too? I'm perplexed.
they want it to be controlled. The way ignite works now is that it happens passively, making it so you choose when to ignite makes more interactions possible. I personally like the way it is now with phoenix flame.
Insane cd stacking is the problem not ignite itself. Imo they should tone down rop+combust (or just get rid of rop) and let ignite work normaly (with pf still baseline.)
Problem is that ignite spreads naturally on it's own. So if you limit the amount of targets it can spread to, and these effect prioritize targets that don't have the effect already (Any cleave dot works this way), it will still just end up naturally on all targets. A good visualization of how just limiting the targets wouldn't work is to play a druid, spec twin moons. Applying sunfire would be old ignite ticking, and spreading applying itself to all targets around the main one. Moonfire would be the new ignite with target cap. Spam moonfire on your main target in a pack. After a while, all the targets will have the moonfire debuff anyways, it just took longer than that 1 sunfire. I agree with preach here. Ignite was not the issue, because fire mages weren't even viable before lucid dream and masterful. It's almost as if they intend to get even wackier system than corruption in, and pre-emptively gut the specs that would get the most out of it.
I think there are two main problems right now. The less important one is that since you can't control ignite, it's next to impossible as a fire mage to only pull one enemy when you're questing, your ignite will often spread to anything near it including neutral mobs. The more important problem though is that because of the way ignite works and how weak flamestrike is compared to pyroblast, fire mages are better off just doing their regular single target rotation in AOE situations since ignite is 90% of the aoe damage regardless and pyroblast makes bigger ignites than flamestrike, unless there are at least 5 targets (which with the aoe capping is probably going to be a lot rarer in SL). Don't ask me why they don't fix this by making flamestrike spread ignite and give it more damage or something so it feels like it's worth pressing for cleave.
@@JustSomeGuyInAChairIDunno the problem is still that it is not controlled when the spell that makes it spread does dmg and generate hot streak. you will want to use that even after combust to generate more hotstreaks and cleave. its just that this playstyle is more front loaded on combustion and pheanix flames than it was before. with constant cleave we had some cleave when we was just single target casting FB FB over and over. now we will use all 3 charges of PF and if the rechare is so that we cant use them ever outside of combustion they serve no purpos what so ever. but if they work like in legion you will spend 1 of them after a casted pyro prock or a meteor to spread that bigger ignite. i personally like the part with PF but we need some way to generate the stacks of them like in legion otherwise it will be boring as hell.
Unfortunately, that's has been true for a lot of classes for sometime. People think that it's related to "people will always pick the best choice", but it's beyond that. Things like "Flame On" or "Rune of Power" being talents just don't make sense. They don't really change the playstyle and improve the class way too much that it should just be baseline and substituted for a talent that actually changes the gameplay in someway, whether it's actually good or not, like the choices Warriors, for example, have with some talents (Not all though. Looking at you, D Stance) that don't feel like baseline stuff made into talents to limit the class. It actually blows my mind that, after so long, they finally made Posthaste baseline for hunters though, since it always felt like it was too helpful to pass it. So maybe we'll see more changes like that in the future of WoW.
Would be nice but I doubt it There's a lot of class resource flavor Blizzard's removed over time and they have no interest in reintroducing, like the old visual effects for Warlock Resources in MoP.
This reminds me of Flame Shock & Lava Lash in Warlords for Enhancement. There was a time you could continually cross-pandemic different Flame Shocks from Targets A->B->C, and keep adding more time to the other Flame Shocks that were active resulting in 2 minute, 12 minute, 200 minute long Flame Shocks as long as you didn't hit the "main" target over and over. Some serious spaghet.
On the Botanist fight in Legion (Nighthold raid), you could go up to a ~3years duration on Flame Shock as Elemental with the correct setup. If I remember correctly, you'd spec Ascendance and have 100% uptime on Lava Burst, and since the 3 bosses were close all the time, you'd cleave between them and bounce the Flame Shock, but it was later fixed
This first popped up in Firelands. Enhancement was just solo farming the trash of the whole instanz after the first boss was killed (25 Size) but with the fun that you could trigger firenova from every active flame shock. Quad Scaling Unholy DK? Pls.... Enhancer was first!
I also think it sounds pretty rad, but it would be a huge skill ceiling, and fire mage already has one of the most involved burst windows (IMO) so I doubt blizzard will want this to be used. It also highly incentivizes making macros with either mob names or mousovers to be competetive, which I assume blizzard won't like.
But you could only do it every 90 secs anyway. It also puts a lot of power into you CD window, so being outside of it will not do much. In the video his Fireball hits for ~600 Damage for a 2sec Cast. But this Ignite stuff in the end starting at 5:38 did like 26.060 damage just in Ignites. That´s the same as a minute worth of Fireballs.
I had mentioned previously; this is the exact reason I think blizz didn't roll out Shadow and Fire changes together. They want to hear feedback from Fire while they fix Shadow, so they can swing at one ball at a time. At least, that's what I'm hoping for.
Oh God, it's Ignite Compression from Blackrock Foundary all over again! They nerfed the tier set that caused it so people couldn't do it in Hellfire Citadel, but it looks like they never solved the underlying problem.
first thing i thought of lol. it never was solved (it still happens to a much less broken extent rn, just compare your ignite weakaura to your largest ticks on an aoe fight like hivemind or vex) but i honestly didnt even consider that it would basically send us back to brf, especially considering they made 2 fire blast charges baseline specifically because of that 2pc
This was discovered late in MoP but was much harder to pull off because you didn't have 2 fire blast charges. IIRC during your Alter Time pyro spam you would put a pyro on a 2nd target, then when you're done you would blast one of the ignited targets to get a bigger ignite on the other target and then combust, but by that point ignite would almost be falling off, so if you didn't time it right you'd just have a 0 ignite combustion.
I honestly kind of like the idea of ignite shuffling as a mechanic. I know they'd never balance fire mage around something like this, but I think if you were encouraged to keep a massive ignite rolling by shifting it between targets it could make for a pretty fun minigame and a pretty unique style of AoE Damage.
I feel the same way. If instead of cycles of bloat/prune or temporary systems of progression they simply embraced horizontal progression, this would be a cool variant of the spec. It could even focus on mastery and also hold the same niche as a dot or cleave caster.
i remember on hans'gar and franzok when you would get a high ignite on one, fire blast to ignite the other, then use the 2'nd fire blast charge from tier set to double it back to the first guy, combust him (back when it was a dot based on ignite) and then from the free fire blast charge from casting combust get it onto the 2'nd guy. that's a double ignite into a combustion that's on both bosses, was insane deeps.
The spreading of ignite passively would definitely be a huge problem in a world of target capped aoe abilities. That would make fire mages far and away better than anything else for aoe, so I understand the restricting of the spread -if- they keep the target caps in (which I'm fine with too). But yeah, this is currently a bit of a mess, but an easy fix would be to get rid of charges from phoenix flames and make it's cooldown the duration of an ignite. Scale ignite as they want it as far as damage output so you're not 'nerfed' by losing the charges of the phoenix flame. What you're saying is 'fixes on fixes' is actually just called iteration in software design and is perfectly normal.
Actually most of the AOE caps have been exclusively melee, most caster AOE still uncapped in shadowlands right now such as mind sear, blizzard, and starfall.
@@fab2lats the fact that this is so true is really sad, they probably going to do some changes before but its going to be shit aswell and then they say hey we will fix in patch 9.x because of time reasons lmao
Phoenix baseline is a very welcome change and makes the spec insteadly more fun to play. That's the part they need to take on every class and of course removing the bfa gcd changes.
They should make a 2nd talent tree, essentially a covenant talent tree. Where, after you complete a zone you unlock their covenant abilities and can use Venthyr's Door of Shadows and Vesper Totem, per say. Also, you could use a tome or whatever they're referred to as in Shadowlands to swap them. There's still a bit of power behind them with the conduits, and then also you get to mostly choose based on preferred vanity.
Oh look, it's that thing that every Mage who raided in WoD said would happen when they brought back active Ignite spreading. Without the BfA rental power and with Ignite capped at eight targets it doesn't need this - it can stay as a passive and not have these ridiculous mechanical issues that have already been tried and failed.
Exactly. The old Combustion was so much fun. I haven’t touched my mage since they got rid of it. So much of the dumbing down of specs is due to their unwillingness to meaningfully update their UI.
It is a bit odd. They removed it in Legion, which is the same expansion they did all those UI/resource changes, so Arcane got their Arcane charges as a bar and what not, so surely it would have been easy enough to do one for Fire. As someone who plays Fire mage as a main alt, I like the new combustion, but there is a part of me that wishes we get the old Combustion back in some form.
Everyone keeps going: ”look they listen to feedback its so great bla bla”. Yeah thats good n all but unfortunately that isnt helping anyone to sleep any better because they show time and time again that they are fundamentaly out of touch with what made specs good before and are mostly just ”listening” to feedback and ”fixing” stuff as a PR thing it seems. Its hollow. There is zero actuall creativity which would make any normal person think that anything fun and interesting is gonna hit the class design of Shadowlands. Every ”fix” comes from people outside telling blizzard that things arent working. Its like the entire development has been outsorced to a bunch of randoms imo that has zero clue while fixing things thanks to feedback even though they arent understanding of why they are doing it.
Im sure you're working on a video about the changes, but please share your thoughts on the changes to ele shaman. I thought blizz didnt want ele to feel like a builder spender? It seems like they made it worse. Forcing ele to build and spend double the amount when wanting to do st and aoe. One of the beautiful things about ele was doing st and dropping earthquakes to do both. Eles aoe already takes a while to come online and with the changes it will make it take even longer. Seems odd to make eq so hard to use when all it takes is a tank to move a little and all that time working on setting up aoe is for nothing.
I actually dont mind igniting manual esch target it gives the spec something to manage which makes the spec more interesting for me. Plus in some instances its actually a good thing not to spread your ignite for example in bolstering weeks
or what allso happenes more commonly: Blizzard thinks there should be a change without thinking further then get the change inn, and creates a problem, then goes ad nauseum on your comment^^
Keeping the ignite spreading on fire blast so it doesn’t spread passively and outrange the target cap and at least it’s a solo target, ain’t gonna involve a 3 hitting target spells
@@Mr91Jmay because as someone who will play shadowlands we are supposed to moan and bitch about stuff that hasnt been release yet! That common sense right?
I've already said my complaint about this (being a fire mage main) Fire mage inherently wasn't OP. Font of power + hyperthread + lucid dreams + 12% mastery corruption stack is what made us godly levels of OP. All blizzard had to do is just let the expansion go live with the phoenix flames baseline and leave ignite as it is and it would be a perfectly fine spec because all those other benefits were just just borrowed power from BFA so they wont be relevant in shadowlands. But nope they had to go and break ignite.
What about borrowed power from shadowlands? You say like we're not getting anything in return. It's too early to tell what will be broken and what not.
This was the first thing I said when I was reading in our mage discord the first ever changes coming in SL. You have to target juggle to make it work in any sense and your ignite will be significantly smaller on your MAIN target when doing pure single target compared to having 2 adds with it. Now they could juggle around with numbers, but there isn't a real way to make it not busted in some way. The only solution I would use is that whenever you PF you double your ignite on your main target after spreading it. Now you may say that even that is stupid, because the exponential ignite growth. But this system of controlled spreading of ignite will never work unless the ignite you spread is non existant. Or unless you simply don't care and let it happen.
Are rolling ignites still a thing? Maybe thats what is happening but the initial one isnt getting it. If its not a thing, maybe that is what the WIP talent is going to be but they have it turned on by accident (and its broken).
Any sort of class changes based on the end of expansion gear is silly due to the crazy stats on the gear. They've been doing this since Vanilla and Nax gear, yet they keep doing it.
I spent a couple hours testing additive ignite the day Phoenix Flame became baseline with the Mage discord. Quadratic ignite ramping is crazy strong and will be very annoying.
This could be somewhat easily fixed by reducing the charges on Phoenix, assuming they can’t stop the double dipping here. That being said, I’d rather they just hit the charges, and allow Phoenix to spread overlapping ignites in an AOE around the target, so that Flamestrike doesn’t feel left out of the fun. If it feels too bare they could just reduce the cooldown.
This would be a higher skill cap unique way to AoE would it not? The mechanic part of this "glitch" seems actual fun. Would it be possible to tweak the numbers to not make it busted but keep this unique builder type ignite?
It may be just be a bandaid, but I think giving control of ignite to players while bringing back a highly requested spell are good things. It's alpha, of course there will be broken things. Once they're fixed, fire mage will be in a very good spot I think.
Slightly confused. Didn't the quick look done by Preach ask for Phoenix flames to be baseline and spread ignite possibly? I know passive spreading is probably the best but it seems like they took those suggestions.
I just started leveling a fire mage, got it to around level 80 now so i just started messing with Ignite stuff and i definitely dont have it down yet im not ready for them to change a Mastery im just now learning
Mike, can you make a video which briefly covers how you’d like each spec from each class to play? This might be based on any version of wow or completely new. I’m very interested in your views. Thank you.
@@gampie13 Dont forget destro. I agree that demo needs love a lot more but Destro needs some too. Like its not unplayable but it will feel a lot worse without the borrowed power
That was my thoughts also. Why fix it when we are going to lose corruption effects and there won't be people with over 100% mastery to abuse it anyway. It would be fine if they left it IMO.
Oh shit man. What your describing is exactly how DK dots worked before Legion when we would Pestilence to manually spread DoTs from A to B then respread back to A.... except DK dots were fixed damage and the respreading was only for refreshing Duration.
Hey mike, got a video request actually because of some recent guild drama but could you to do a video on Twilight Devstation's effect on tanking. Depending on how this whole drama ends I might send it into drama time :)
6:03 "this is very similar to what happened in WoD", actually the problem had been present since the start of MoP, but it was discovered during SoO tier when mages started "smashing" ignites from two targets making them not only combine but multiply, you could've had almost 2m ignite ticks, which is a lot if you combust it, those of you who have played SoO will know how busted that was. I personally don't see an issue in increasing the skill capp of the fire mage spec, as long as it's not required to be at least on par with other specs that don't do that sort of shit and top the meters(warlocks I'm looking at you). The more complicated that is the better. SoO was the golden era of firemages if you ask me. I didn't see any issue back then I neither do I see it now. It was awesome topping the meters by a large margin because you're a better player. I don't wanna be collecting scaps of damage to be competetive like it was in Legion. I wish they would just go back to Sieg firemage and iterate from that. Sadly people seem to like Legion firemage better and Blizzard is leaning towards giving them what they want.
As a main Firemage during Legion (couldn't play BFA due to work) i had 0 intrest in returning for Shadowlands. At least this is a step in the right direction for us firemages and will probably mean ill be willing to pay to play WoW again. Also this potentially looks like a stacking system but the tooltip is just missing. i.e Ignite(1) Ignite(2) Ignite(3)
I think this could actually be a cool gameplay change, but they should scale the damage down. Maybe there's something I'm not seeing, but I think this adds a little more depth to fire and rewards putting in a little more effort to understand how the mechanics of the class works.
I like it this way. This mechanic has a lot of depth and some risk in my eyes. They shouldn't make it simpler. It's something which can make fun. And they should give arcane and frost mechanics like this too. Have you actually tested how ridiculous it can get? Doesn't look like that wierd from what you have shown in the video
I think to solve the problem Fireblast and Phoenix Flames need to have 10 charges each. Of course you need to compensate and make them do 10% of the damage they currently do. Also, Pyroblast then needs to do 50% less damage, because you're firing 3 in a second, that's common sense. Players will love having to spam all these buttons that do minimal damage on their own.
Kinda weird that the main issue where combustion is not 100% crit is hidden behind all other flavor things described in the video. If crit is fixed, the gameplay would be absolutely fine then.
Hilarious, not gonna lie. But honestly if they are bringing back Phoenix Flames simply to be an ignite spreader, why does it still need the 3 charges or even the auto crit for that matter?
Actually it does not, it just fucks up your main target ignite, because pheonix also pushes it's ignite dot along with spreading the main, making it lower on your primary focus. Cleave should be equal if not lower compared to your main. Ignite is already as complex as it gets, but the rotation behind it is the only viable build for fire, which is a no brainer. When they will add that new talent, they should make it in such way, that it will force you into changing your build to something else, problem is, there is no other way with how the spec works right now, to implement something else. You fetch for big instants, apply pyros to double the generated dot, and munch it as much as you can. Considering the row its a dps utility one, I would expect a flamestrike modifier, something to make it instant and taking it out from consuming hot streaks would be cool.
easy fix link the ignite damages so they spread out evenly on aoe (great way to cap ignites aoe damage since all caracters get a aoe cap in shadowlads) and i stilll think living bomb shoud spread ignite
If they want to continue with ithis double-dipping (Which I doubt) they could easily fix it by simply making Phoenix Flames "spread" the DoT onto itself.
They could just make a second spell effect for the spreaded ignite and call it phoenix burn or something. If you then try to spread from a second target, it would only count the ignite from the fresh pyro and not the previous spreaded ignite.
I don’t understand why people keep saying that Fire Blast spreading ignite would be bad, that is how it worked in MoP and it was perfectly fine, your ignite just passively spread while you were doing your rotation. It is obviously different now in that combustion generates large ignites rather than large ignites leading to a large combustion DoT but the principle is exactly the same. In fact it is probably even better now using Fire Blast -> Pyro -> Fire Blast -> Pyro during combustion rather than just spamming Pyro using Alter Time and how Heating Up / Hot Streak used to work (being able to have both buffs at once) because you are weaving in these Fire Blasts every other cast so the combustion ignite would be spreading constantly. All that might happen is that we would go back to a high crit build and Fire Blast would be used on CD to generate Hot Streaks while also passively spreading ignite. Very confused as to why this is seen as a terrible thing. Fire Mage in MoP (SoO specifically) was very fun and this method of spreading ignite actually fits even better in to current Fire Mage design.
Honestly, fire mage as a spec is fairly well balanced in 8.3. What breaks it is as you mentioned, stacking mastery corruptions to multiple the existing effect of ignite. Corruption as a whole is pretty broken in 8.3 meta. I have a bear tank in my guild pushing 36% TD, he’s a pain in the ass to heal but he carries the DPS most of the time.
![Frost Is The New Fire? [TDP]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YXzUVI1a7Q0/mqdefault.jpg)
Not gonna lie, saw title and assumed this was a BFA video.
Either/or
Sames
Every arena scenario: "oof, a fire mage. Stick him or we 100% die"
Fire is so fucking fun and rewarding right now. Memory of lucid dreams is something to keep in mind as a talent or cd or something
@@Sam-es2gf I mean all you do is stack 1 stats and focus on 1 passive, not that fun for me but its my opinion
Great video Preach, thank you. Here's an afterthought for those sitting here, like me.. wondering why they needed to change how Ignite spreads in the first place. Why are we changing this again? If they're so hell bent on capping the amount of targets AoE hits.. Why not keep Ignite working as it is on live, and just cap the targets it can spread too?
I'm perplexed.
they want it to be controlled. The way ignite works now is that it happens passively, making it so you choose when to ignite makes more interactions possible. I personally like the way it is now with phoenix flame.
Insane cd stacking is the problem not ignite itself.
Imo they should tone down rop+combust (or just get rid of rop) and let ignite work normaly (with pf still baseline.)
Problem is that ignite spreads naturally on it's own. So if you limit the amount of targets it can spread to, and these effect prioritize targets that don't have the effect already (Any cleave dot works this way), it will still just end up naturally on all targets.
A good visualization of how just limiting the targets wouldn't work is to play a druid, spec twin moons. Applying sunfire would be old ignite ticking, and spreading applying itself to all targets around the main one. Moonfire would be the new ignite with target cap. Spam moonfire on your main target in a pack. After a while, all the targets will have the moonfire debuff anyways, it just took longer than that 1 sunfire.
I agree with preach here. Ignite was not the issue, because fire mages weren't even viable before lucid dream and masterful. It's almost as if they intend to get even wackier system than corruption in, and pre-emptively gut the specs that would get the most out of it.
I think there are two main problems right now. The less important one is that since you can't control ignite, it's next to impossible as a fire mage to only pull one enemy when you're questing, your ignite will often spread to anything near it including neutral mobs. The more important problem though is that because of the way ignite works and how weak flamestrike is compared to pyroblast, fire mages are better off just doing their regular single target rotation in AOE situations since ignite is 90% of the aoe damage regardless and pyroblast makes bigger ignites than flamestrike, unless there are at least 5 targets (which with the aoe capping is probably going to be a lot rarer in SL). Don't ask me why they don't fix this by making flamestrike spread ignite and give it more damage or something so it feels like it's worth pressing for cleave.
@@JustSomeGuyInAChairIDunno the problem is still that it is not controlled when the spell that makes it spread does dmg and generate hot streak. you will want to use that even after combust to generate more hotstreaks and cleave. its just that this playstyle is more front loaded on combustion and pheanix flames than it was before. with constant cleave we had some cleave when we was just single target casting FB FB over and over. now we will use all 3 charges of PF and if the rechare is so that we cant use them ever outside of combustion they serve no purpos what so ever. but if they work like in legion you will spend 1 of them after a casted pyro prock or a meteor to spread that bigger ignite. i personally like the part with PF but we need some way to generate the stacks of them like in legion otherwise it will be boring as hell.
The talents for Fire could use balancing in general, tired of not having choices to make.
Choices in an rpg?? What are you some sort of boomer? 😋
it is kinda sad to know that whatever they will come up with to fill in the void left by PF, it wont be better than flame on anyways
mage in general has the same problem as alot of classes, with one talent shackeling the class balance (rune of power for mage)
Fire literally hasn't had choices in its talents since Legion. Pls Blizz give fire real talents
Unfortunately, that's has been true for a lot of classes for sometime. People think that it's related to "people will always pick the best choice", but it's beyond that. Things like "Flame On" or "Rune of Power" being talents just don't make sense.
They don't really change the playstyle and improve the class way too much that it should just be baseline and substituted for a talent that actually changes the gameplay in someway, whether it's actually good or not, like the choices Warriors, for example, have with some talents (Not all though. Looking at you, D Stance) that don't feel like baseline stuff made into talents to limit the class.
It actually blows my mind that, after so long, they finally made Posthaste baseline for hunters though, since it always felt like it was too helpful to pass it. So maybe we'll see more changes like that in the future of WoW.
So now that Phoenix is baseline, can they put the orbs toggle back on the class hall NPC?
Would be nice but I doubt it
There's a lot of class resource flavor Blizzard's removed over time and they have no interest in reintroducing, like the old visual effects for Warlock Resources in MoP.
I miss this more than I realised honestly, it was visually amazing
@@QuestionableObject You can glyph the soul shards/ember visuals now.
I want my Shadow Priest ravens back, too :'
@@QuestionableObject There are few glyphs that actually give shards being visually seen on the character with different colours and effects tho.
This reminds me of Flame Shock & Lava Lash in Warlords for Enhancement.
There was a time you could continually cross-pandemic different Flame Shocks from Targets A->B->C, and keep adding more time to the other Flame Shocks that were active resulting in 2 minute, 12 minute, 200 minute long Flame Shocks as long as you didn't hit the "main" target over and over. Some serious spaghet.
On the Botanist fight in Legion (Nighthold raid), you could go up to a ~3years duration on Flame Shock as Elemental with the correct setup. If I remember correctly, you'd spec Ascendance and have 100% uptime on Lava Burst, and since the 3 bosses were close all the time, you'd cleave between them and bounce the Flame Shock, but it was later fixed
This first popped up in Firelands. Enhancement was just solo farming the trash of the whole instanz after the first boss was killed (25 Size) but with the fun that you could trigger firenova from every active flame shock. Quad Scaling Unholy DK? Pls.... Enhancer was first!
Ignite dancing kinda sounds pretty cool tho.
I hope they actually leave this too but lower the %dmg on ignite so its not OP.
I also think it sounds pretty rad, but it would be a huge skill ceiling, and fire mage already has one of the most involved burst windows (IMO) so I doubt blizzard will want this to be used. It also highly incentivizes making macros with either mob names or mousovers to be competetive, which I assume blizzard won't like.
But you could only do it every 90 secs anyway.
It also puts a lot of power into you CD window, so being outside of it will not do much.
In the video his Fireball hits for ~600 Damage for a 2sec Cast.
But this Ignite stuff in the end starting at 5:38 did like 26.060 damage just in Ignites.
That´s the same as a minute worth of Fireballs.
I love it!!!
@@georgefryda that's just pvp
If this was intentional and even close to balancable, i would love this playstyle for cleave fights.
Good on 1 boss, sucks on everyone else. No thanks, mages already have arcane for this niche.
@@randomrandom7208 you could work this into a talent. Maybe the missing one rn
I love when Blizzard breaks things like this. It reminds me of the Reckoning Bomb days.
Now just need to make Flame on Baseline as the other 2 talents in that row will never be played
I had mentioned previously; this is the exact reason I think blizz didn't roll out Shadow and Fire changes together. They want to hear feedback from Fire while they fix Shadow, so they can swing at one ball at a time. At least, that's what I'm hoping for.
Oh God, it's Ignite Compression from Blackrock Foundary all over again! They nerfed the tier set that caused it so people couldn't do it in Hellfire Citadel, but it looks like they never solved the underlying problem.
first thing i thought of lol. it never was solved (it still happens to a much less broken extent rn, just compare your ignite weakaura to your largest ticks on an aoe fight like hivemind or vex) but i honestly didnt even consider that it would basically send us back to brf, especially considering they made 2 fire blast charges baseline specifically because of that 2pc
This was discovered late in MoP but was much harder to pull off because you didn't have 2 fire blast charges. IIRC during your Alter Time pyro spam you would put a pyro on a 2nd target, then when you're done you would blast one of the ignited targets to get a bigger ignite on the other target and then combust, but by that point ignite would almost be falling off, so if you didn't time it right you'd just have a 0 ignite combustion.
I honestly kind of like the idea of ignite shuffling as a mechanic. I know they'd never balance fire mage around something like this, but I think if you were encouraged to keep a massive ignite rolling by shifting it between targets it could make for a pretty fun minigame and a pretty unique style of AoE Damage.
I feel the same way. If instead of cycles of bloat/prune or temporary systems of progression they simply embraced horizontal progression, this would be a cool variant of the spec. It could even focus on mastery and also hold the same niche as a dot or cleave caster.
i remember on hans'gar and franzok when you would get a high ignite on one, fire blast to ignite the other, then use the 2'nd fire blast charge from tier set to double it back to the first guy, combust him (back when it was a dot based on ignite) and then from the free fire blast charge from casting combust get it onto the 2'nd guy.
that's a double ignite into a combustion that's on both bosses, was insane deeps.
Fire mage, "Idk seems like it's working as attended."
The spreading of ignite passively would definitely be a huge problem in a world of target capped aoe abilities. That would make fire mages far and away better than anything else for aoe, so I understand the restricting of the spread -if- they keep the target caps in (which I'm fine with too). But yeah, this is currently a bit of a mess, but an easy fix would be to get rid of charges from phoenix flames and make it's cooldown the duration of an ignite. Scale ignite as they want it as far as damage output so you're not 'nerfed' by losing the charges of the phoenix flame. What you're saying is 'fixes on fixes' is actually just called iteration in software design and is perfectly normal.
Actually most of the AOE caps have been exclusively melee, most caster AOE still uncapped in shadowlands right now such as mind sear, blizzard, and starfall.
What were the Druid changes that preach is referencing?? Thx in advance :-)
finally some fixes, now lets continue eternally wait them to fix shadow
Lol you and i both know even if it's happening it's goin to be in 9.3
@@fab2lats the fact that this is so true is really sad, they probably going to do some changes before but its going to be shit aswell and then they say hey we will fix in patch 9.x because of time reasons lmao
Or feral or demo or survival
@@maxw565 true but these specs have atleast 1 other dps spec with shadow you either stick or reroll
Phoenix baseline is a very welcome change and makes the spec insteadly more fun to play. That's the part they need to take on every class and of course removing the bfa gcd changes.
They should make a 2nd talent tree, essentially a covenant talent tree. Where, after you complete a zone you unlock their covenant abilities and can use Venthyr's Door of Shadows and Vesper Totem, per say. Also, you could use a tome or whatever they're referred to as in Shadowlands to swap them. There's still a bit of power behind them with the conduits, and then also you get to mostly choose based on preferred vanity.
lets pile more garbage on top of the old garbage
@@bobbykotick1163 id rather not be fucked over by power issues.
Oh look, it's that thing that every Mage who raided in WoD said would happen when they brought back active Ignite spreading. Without the BfA rental power and with Ignite capped at eight targets it doesn't need this - it can stay as a passive and not have these ridiculous mechanical issues that have already been tried and failed.
This is how old fire mage used to work just give back old combustion or tweak it
Bugs aside, I think using Phoenix Flames as the baseline aoe sounds like a great idea. The spell is cool
Excellent breakdown of the Phoenix Flames side effects. Great job, Preach.
Just revert combustion to an ignite snapshot dot. Them claiming you needed combustionhelper to effectively use it was just a UI failing on their part.
Exactly. The old Combustion was so much fun. I haven’t touched my mage since they got rid of it. So much of the dumbing down of specs is due to their unwillingness to meaningfully update their UI.
It is a bit odd. They removed it in Legion, which is the same expansion they did all those UI/resource changes, so Arcane got their Arcane charges as a bar and what not, so surely it would have been easy enough to do one for Fire.
As someone who plays Fire mage as a main alt, I like the new combustion, but there is a part of me that wishes we get the old Combustion back in some form.
Now this is the stuff I like to see! This is some mop/wod design with high ceiling cap potential. I want stuff like this for every single spec
The ignite bug was happening since the start at alpha.. saw Preeheat playing with it in stream.
Everyone keeps going: ”look they listen to feedback its so great bla bla”.
Yeah thats good n all but unfortunately that isnt helping anyone to sleep any better because they show time and time again that they are fundamentaly out of touch with what made specs good before and are mostly just ”listening” to feedback and ”fixing” stuff as a PR thing it seems. Its hollow.
There is zero actuall creativity which would make any normal person think that anything fun and interesting is gonna hit the class design of Shadowlands. Every ”fix” comes from people outside telling blizzard that things arent working.
Its like the entire development has been outsorced to a bunch of randoms imo that has zero clue while fixing things thanks to feedback even though they arent understanding of why they are doing it.
Wow class design team fucked everything up after MoP. Idk what happened, but it hurts the game the most.
Did you test the alextrazsa's fury change? i guess it would be hard with these bugs happening
This sounds like it would be amazing to play. An "ignite weaving" fire mage would probably be a lot of work, but super satisfying.
Honestly, this sounds like really fun, complex micromanagement which is sadly lacking in almost every spec right now, wouldn't mind it staying tbh
Words!
Im sure you're working on a video about the changes, but please share your thoughts on the changes to ele shaman. I thought blizz didnt want ele to feel like a builder spender? It seems like they made it worse. Forcing ele to build and spend double the amount when wanting to do st and aoe. One of the beautiful things about ele was doing st and dropping earthquakes to do both. Eles aoe already takes a while to come online and with the changes it will make it take even longer. Seems odd to make eq so hard to use when all it takes is a tank to move a little and all that time working on setting up aoe is for nothing.
Maybe if they just make ignite spread through flamestrike, any mob standing on the flamestrike area will spread the ignite to other mobs within it.
I like that ignite method, sending ignite from other targets once its multiplied. I think thats an awesome added skill. WTB snapshotting?
I actually dont mind igniting manual esch target it gives the spec something to manage which makes the spec more interesting for me. Plus in some instances its actually a good thing not to spread your ignite for example in bolstering weeks
Blizzard thinks there a problem, creates a solution that creates an actual problem.
or what allso happenes more commonly: Blizzard thinks there should be a change without thinking further then get the change inn, and creates a problem, then goes ad nauseum on your comment^^
Keeping the ignite spreading on fire blast so it doesn’t spread passively and outrange the target cap and at least it’s a solo target, ain’t gonna involve a 3 hitting target spells
Wish they would just let ignite spread.. Yikes. Our covenant ability already sucks and we lose font and mechagon bracers.
How could you possibly know the covenant sucks?
@@Mr91Jmay because as someone who will play shadowlands we are supposed to moan and bitch about stuff that hasnt been release yet! That common sense right?
We lose bracers but phoenix flames is baseline so its kinda w/e
I've already said my complaint about this (being a fire mage main) Fire mage inherently wasn't OP. Font of power + hyperthread + lucid dreams + 12% mastery corruption stack is what made us godly levels of OP.
All blizzard had to do is just let the expansion go live with the phoenix flames baseline and leave ignite as it is and it would be a perfectly fine spec because all those other benefits were just just borrowed power from BFA so they wont be relevant in shadowlands. But nope they had to go and break ignite.
What about borrowed power from shadowlands? You say like we're not getting anything in return. It's too early to tell what will be broken and what not.
This was the first thing I said when I was reading in our mage discord the first ever changes coming in SL. You have to target juggle to make it work in any sense and your ignite will be significantly smaller on your MAIN target when doing pure single target compared to having 2 adds with it. Now they could juggle around with numbers, but there isn't a real way to make it not busted in some way.
The only solution I would use is that whenever you PF you double your ignite on your main target after spreading it. Now you may say that even that is stupid, because the exponential ignite growth. But this system of controlled spreading of ignite will never work unless the ignite you spread is non existant. Or unless you simply don't care and let it happen.
Why can’t they just bring back the old combustion? It was so fun just basically building up a ToD style massive DoT
Are rolling ignites still a thing? Maybe thats what is happening but the initial one isnt getting it. If its not a thing, maybe that is what the WIP talent is going to be but they have it turned on by accident (and its broken).
At what point would it be better to redesign a spec from the ground up?
Oh boy, this is bringing back some Blackrock foundry PTSD..
Pretty sure this is not a new problem. Preheat showed that you could do this in alpha with the previous build of fireblast spreading ignite.
Any sort of class changes based on the end of expansion gear is silly due to the crazy stats on the gear. They've been doing this since Vanilla and Nax gear, yet they keep doing it.
I spent a couple hours testing additive ignite the day Phoenix Flame became baseline with the Mage discord. Quadratic ignite ramping is crazy strong and will be very annoying.
what did they change on the druids?
How does preach get the portal spells to face horizontally? Mine seem to be stuck vertically
Same thing happened to the fire mage in Warlords of Draenor around/during blackrock foundry, used to work great on Hans'gar and Franzok.
This could be somewhat easily fixed by reducing the charges on Phoenix, assuming they can’t stop the double dipping here.
That being said, I’d rather they just hit the charges, and allow Phoenix to spread overlapping ignites in an AOE around the target, so that Flamestrike doesn’t feel left out of the fun. If it feels too bare they could just reduce the cooldown.
This would be a higher skill cap unique way to AoE would it not? The mechanic part of this "glitch" seems actual fun. Would it be possible to tweak the numbers to not make it busted but keep this unique builder type ignite?
It may be just be a bandaid, but I think giving control of ignite to players while bringing back a highly requested spell are good things. It's alpha, of course there will be broken things. Once they're fixed, fire mage will be in a very good spot I think.
Riiiiight... ima prepare some frost gear for the patch.
Slightly confused. Didn't the quick look done by Preach ask for Phoenix flames to be baseline and spread ignite possibly? I know passive spreading is probably the best but it seems like they took those suggestions.
I just started leveling a fire mage, got it to around level 80 now so i just started messing with Ignite stuff and i definitely dont have it down yet im not ready for them to change a Mastery im just now learning
Negl, that sounds like fun gameplay though, maybe they should reduce ignite damage but keep this?
Mike, can you make a video which briefly covers how you’d like each spec from each class to play? This might be based on any version of wow or completely new. I’m very interested in your views. Thank you.
can we get deep freeze back as well pls?
Pls no that was broken in MoP arena
you get an ignite, you get an ignite, you get an ignite. EVERYONE GETS AN IGNITE!!
Nice to see that fire mages get stuff baselined. I hope however blizz would listen all other specs feedback, such as Shadow priests and warlocks !
tbh, i think they forgot that shadow and demonology exist at this point
@@gampie13 Dont forget destro. I agree that demo needs love a lot more but Destro needs some too. Like its not unplayable but it will feel a lot worse without the borrowed power
Reduce the number of charges of pheonix flames? Or is that too easy...
this sounds like fun gameplay honestly if they balanced it a bit so it cant get too out of hand
isnt this bad since that amount of ignite is like having a 33k ignite on 8.3?
how many haste should i am for as fire mage
Oh lord this is quite interesting emergent behavior. Gameplay wise, i feel like ignite should be on an ability that doesn't have a travel time.
Nothing a warrior can’t fix.
Fixing three times a thing that didn't require a fix in the first place. Yeah, WoW's history in a nutshell.
Had a stroke tryna read this comment
That was my thoughts also. Why fix it when we are going to lose corruption effects and there won't be people with over 100% mastery to abuse it anyway. It would be fine if they left it IMO.
So Fire Mage got Path of Flame after having free spread of their DoT...
Fun.
Similar to the blackrock foundry tier set?
I liked the brf double fireblast ignite doubling. But this seems weird
It’s not really broken though because you are assuming the pull will be grpd the whole time.
Oh shit man. What your describing is exactly how DK dots worked before Legion when we would Pestilence to manually spread DoTs from A to B then respread back to A.... except DK dots were fixed damage and the respreading was only for refreshing Duration.
I can see why people prefer the auto spread of current ignite, but having control over it with pheonix flames seems like its just better gameplay.
Hey mike, got a video request actually because of some recent guild drama but could you to do a video on Twilight Devstation's effect on tanking. Depending on how this whole drama ends I might send it into drama time :)
6:03 "this is very similar to what happened in WoD", actually the problem had been present since the start of MoP, but it was discovered during SoO tier when mages started "smashing" ignites from two targets making them not only combine but multiply, you could've had almost 2m ignite ticks, which is a lot if you combust it, those of you who have played SoO will know how busted that was.
I personally don't see an issue in increasing the skill capp of the fire mage spec, as long as it's not required to be at least on par with other specs that don't do that sort of shit and top the meters(warlocks I'm looking at you). The more complicated that is the better. SoO was the golden era of firemages if you ask me. I didn't see any issue back then I neither do I see it now. It was awesome topping the meters by a large margin because you're a better player. I don't wanna be collecting scaps of damage to be competetive like it was in Legion.
I wish they would just go back to Sieg firemage and iterate from that.
Sadly people seem to like Legion firemage better and Blizzard is leaning towards giving them what they want.
Honestly it just seems fun to manipulate it like that
Having phoenix flames is prety cool, but why not just move the spreading ignite to something related to AoE like flame strike or even blast wave.
hope they make this an actual thing
As a main Firemage during Legion (couldn't play BFA due to work) i had 0 intrest in returning for Shadowlands. At least this is a step in the right direction for us firemages and will probably mean ill be willing to pay to play WoW again.
Also this potentially looks like a stacking system but the tooltip is just missing. i.e Ignite(1) Ignite(2) Ignite(3)
there is no way on earth theyd keep this.
I think this could actually be a cool gameplay change, but they should scale the damage down. Maybe there's something I'm not seeing, but I think this adds a little more depth to fire and rewards putting in a little more effort to understand how the mechanics of the class works.
I like it this way. This mechanic has a lot of depth and some risk in my eyes. They shouldn't make it simpler. It's something which can make fun. And they should give arcane and frost mechanics like this too. Have you actually tested how ridiculous it can get? Doesn't look like that wierd from what you have shown in the video
I think to solve the problem Fireblast and Phoenix Flames need to have 10 charges each. Of course you need to compensate and make them do 10% of the damage they currently do. Also, Pyroblast then needs to do 50% less damage, because you're firing 3 in a second, that's common sense. Players will love having to spam all these buttons that do minimal damage on their own.
I mean kinda like right now in 8.3 their ignite is completely busted, but it's the mage so it's no a big deal it seems.
after toping all pve and pvp content since 2004 they finnaly get wat they diserve
Kinda weird that the main issue where combustion is not 100% crit is hidden behind all other flavor things described in the video. If crit is fixed, the gameplay would be absolutely fine then.
Has he indicated what class he is thinking of maining this time around yet?
I think he had maybe 4 classes in mind. I know pally was one of them
Hilarious, not gonna lie.
But honestly if they are bringing back Phoenix Flames simply to be an ignite spreader, why does it still need the 3 charges or even the auto crit for that matter?
Why? WHY? WhY are they doing this to us? Cries in fire blast.
yea this seems really fun actually, i like having to use my brain for better dps, makes it more rewarding
Actually it does not, it just fucks up your main target ignite, because pheonix also pushes it's ignite dot along with spreading the main, making it lower on your primary focus. Cleave should be equal if not lower compared to your main. Ignite is already as complex as it gets, but the rotation behind it is the only viable build for fire, which is a no brainer. When they will add that new talent, they should make it in such way, that it will force you into changing your build to something else, problem is, there is no other way with how the spec works right now, to implement something else. You fetch for big instants, apply pyros to double the generated dot, and munch it as much as you can. Considering the row its a dps utility one, I would expect a flamestrike modifier, something to make it instant and taking it out from consuming hot streaks would be cool.
How many times did my dude say ignite?
Fun detected? Enter the Pruner Gaming
easy fix link the ignite damages so they spread out evenly on aoe (great way to cap ignites aoe damage since all caracters get a aoe cap in shadowlads) and i stilll think living bomb shoud spread ignite
Could this be a bug as a result of the aoe nerf?
If they want to continue with ithis double-dipping (Which I doubt) they could easily fix it by simply making Phoenix Flames "spread" the DoT onto itself.
They could just make a second spell effect for the spreaded ignite and call it phoenix burn or something. If you then try to spread from a second target, it would only count the ignite from the fresh pyro and not the previous spreaded ignite.
I hope they don't fix it too much, this sounds like fun gameplay.
I don’t understand why people keep saying that Fire Blast spreading ignite would be bad, that is how it worked in MoP and it was perfectly fine, your ignite just passively spread while you were doing your rotation. It is obviously different now in that combustion generates large ignites rather than large ignites leading to a large combustion DoT but the principle is exactly the same. In fact it is probably even better now using Fire Blast -> Pyro -> Fire Blast -> Pyro during combustion rather than just spamming Pyro using Alter Time and how Heating Up / Hot Streak used to work (being able to have both buffs at once) because you are weaving in these Fire Blasts every other cast so the combustion ignite would be spreading constantly.
All that might happen is that we would go back to a high crit build and Fire Blast would be used on CD to generate Hot Streaks while also passively spreading ignite.
Very confused as to why this is seen as a terrible thing. Fire Mage in MoP (SoO specifically) was very fun and this method of spreading ignite actually fits even better in to current Fire Mage design.
Honestly, fire mage as a spec is fairly well balanced in 8.3. What breaks it is as you mentioned, stacking mastery corruptions to multiple the existing effect of ignite. Corruption as a whole is pretty broken in 8.3 meta. I have a bear tank in my guild pushing 36% TD, he’s a pain in the ass to heal but he carries the DPS most of the time.
so Blizzard unknowingly made fire mage a snapshotting class lol, now everyone knows how feral druids feel
I kinda like that degenerate game play though. Cycling through targets and setting the world on MAXIMUM FIRE ! :D
Thanks again Preach