How Catelyn Stark Psychologically Scarred Jon Snow 😲
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ต.ค. 2023
- Do you want us to make your GOT Short idea and get a shout-out at the end of the video? If so, go to our membership page: www.youtube.com/@videobooks3/...
This short uses evidence from A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords, A Feast for Crows, A Dance with Dragons and The Winds of Winter.
A Game of Thrones theory explained, prepare for The Winds of Winter release date with a theory video of George R. R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire book series and something to think about while waiting for HBO's House of the Dragon Season 2.
Check out Fantasy Flight's A Game of Thrones Digital Edition Boardgame: store.steampowered.com/app/1075190/A_Game_of_Thrones_The_Board_Game__Digital_Edition/
Support our channel by signing up to a 30 day free trial of Audible using this link: audibletrial.com/videobooks
For all business inquiries please email us on - video.books3@gmail.com
Magali Villeneuve: magali-villeneuve.com/
Ertac Altinoz: artstation.com/ertacaltinoz
Chasestone: chasestoneart.com/
Naomi Buttelo: artstation.com/naomimakesart
Amuelia: artstation.com/amuelia
Warp Speed: warp-speed.tumblr.com/
Riotatttherite: riotarttherite.tumblr.com/
Jaydeewis: jaydeewis.tumblr.com/
Lauren K Cannon: navate.com/
Karla Ortiz: karlaortizart.com/
Teilku: deviantart.com/teiiku
Dani Naimare: artstation.com/daninaimare
John Picacio: johnpicacio.com/
Marc Simonetti: art.marcsimonetti.com/\
Chillyravenart: deviantart.com/chillyravenart/
Bruce Zhang: artstation.com/wwhiloveu10022
Inna Vjuzhanina: deviantart.com/inna-vjuzhanina
Ioan Dumitrescu: artstation.com/ioandumitrescu
Jose Daniel Cabrera Peña: artstation.com/thrax
Didier Graffet: artnet.com/artists/didier-graffet/
Zippo 514: deviantart.com/zippo514
Josu Hernaiz: josuhernaiz.com
Dennis Maznev: deviantart.com/denkata5698
Juan Carlos Barquet: artstation.com/jcbarquet
Dani Naimare: artstation.com/daninaimare
Stefan Kopinski: stefankopinski.com
Ted Nasmith: tednasmith.com/biography/
Hikaru Yagi: artstation.com/yagi
Waldemar Pietka: artstation.com/pietka
Daniil Yuminov: artstation.com/daniil1235
Amuelia: amuelia.tumblr.com/
Patrick Jensen: artstation.com/patrickjensen
Antonio J. Manzanedo: artstation.com/ajmanzanedo
Mike Capprotti: artstation.com/capprotti
Joshua Cairos: artstation.com/joshuacairos
Levi Pinfold: levipinfold.com/
Nachomolina: deviantart.com/nachomolina
Ammotu: www.deviantart.com/ammotu
InfernalFinn: deviantart.com/infernalfinn
John Matson: matson-art.myportfolio.com/projects
Filipe Pagliuso: artstation.com/filipe-pagliuso
Ryan Cassidy: artstation.com/ryancassidy
Cristi Balanescu: artstation.com/cristib
Westling: deviantart.com/westling/gallery
Leesha Hannigan: artstation.com/leeshahannigan
Astri Lohne: artstation.com/sjursen
Steamy: deviantart.com/steamey
John Jude Palencar: muddycolors.com/
Liu Huan: artstation.com/liu_h_
themico: deviantart.com/themico
Javier Bahamonde: artstation.com/bahamondeart
Lino Drieghe: artstation.com/linodriegheart
SpiderWee: artstation.com/spiderwee
René Aigner: artstation.com/reneaigner
BellaBergolts: deviantart.com/bellabergolts
Jon Neimeister: artstation.com/andantonius
Dalisacg: deviantart.com/dalisacg
AbePapakhian: deviantart.com/abepapakhian
Pail Youll: paulyoull.com/paulyoull.com
Jordi Gonzalez Escamilla: artstation.com/jordi_gonzalez
Tomasz Jedruszek: artstation.com/morano
Karakter: artstation.com/karakter/albums/7437
Bidonicart: bidonicart.tumblr.com/
Savaivkov: deviantart.com/savaivkov
BCValdez: deviantart.com/bcvaldez/gallery/43604665/game-of-thrones
Mark Evans: cloudmover.net/gamecards/slideshow-5/agot.html
Even Amundsen: artstation.com/mischeviouslittleelf
Gary jamroz-palma: artstation.com/gary
Darek Zabrocki: artstation.com/zabrocki
Nick Kalinin: deviantart.com/nickkalinin/
lily_estudio106: deviantart.com/lily-estudio106
Sebastian Giacobino: artstation.com/giacobino
Florian Biege: artstation.com/florianbiege
WaterSorcerer: deviantart.com/watersorcerer
Philipp Scherer: artstation.com/philippscherer
Curtana: deviantart.com/curtana
Chad Weatherford: chadweatherford.com/
Kieran Belshaw: artstation.com/the_duellist
Cyril Tahmassebi: serylconcept.com/
Charles Lee: charlesartstation.artstation.com
Karl Simon Gustafsson: karlsimon.com/
Aaron Miller: aaronbmiller.com/
Evgeny Kazantsev: artstation.com/zamenabatareek
Jonathon Burton: jonathanburton.net/
Shunyi Zhou: artstation.com/zhoushunyi
Sergi Sarichev: artstation.com/sarichev
Sheppi TSRodriguez: artstation.com/shevi1437
Smirtouille: deviantart.com/smirtouille
Ryan Valle: artstation.com/rvalle
GibiLynx: deviantart.com/gibilynx
Julepe: deviantart.com/julepe
Alexandra Ovsyankina: artstation.com/alex5228
Sprrow: deviantart.com/sprrow
Kep Trefler: keptrefler.com/
Sheraz Art: fineartamerica.com/profiles/sheraz-ahmad
LynxMB: deviantart.com/lynxmb - ภาพยนตร์และแอนิเมชัน
![Ep.2 เบสไวน์ รวมคลิปฮา SS4 - [ พากย์นรก ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ihk-LzEbox0/mqdefault.jpg)
Ironically if she hadn't pushed Jon away, then maybe Robb would still be alive.
How ? Because jon would've helped him
@@mix-jk3ys if Jon hadn't taken the black he would most certainly marched south with Robb and become one Robb most trusted advisor, most likely preventing the sacking of Winterfell and the Red Wedding.
@@Th_Ppptmstrbut how coud Jon predict the red wedding? Only thing he coud have done is if he reminded Robb of his duty to upheld the deal he made with the Freys. But that is a big if
@@ivanpetkovic2130
That would still make a difference. If he was there to console Robb, rather than the girl he married (idr her name and House) then Walder Frey would never have taken offence and the Red Wedding never happened
@@ivanpetkovic2130 There is a differance between the books and show. In the show it looks like Rus Boltan was with Rob the entire time however he was actaully leading the 2nd Northen Army. He used his position to eliminate Rob's supportes and put his own loyalists. Meanwhile he was in secret corespondace with T Lanester. He went along with Robs invasion because he saw it as an opertunitiy to get rid of the Starks and become "Warden of the North". This is how the Red Wedding happened, Boltan aranged it and Fray did it.
If Jon was with Rob , most likely Rob would of put him in charge of the 2nd army and would of privented Boltan's plan.
I felt really bad for Jon reading it.
Especially the fight flashback he had with Robb as kids, the littles comments that filled his head over the years, making him unable to make decisions without a thousand eyes judging him in his head.
I had a step dad who did that to me constantly and it did it’s fair share of damage I can tell you!
That’s what the show did way better than the book it showed Jon’s flawed and complex thoughts and mind
Cat mirrors Cersei in making things worse for her family in the game
"for Winterfell!"
And don’t forget john grew alot in the nights watch,if the untrained john would come there he would be another sack of meat
i think it is sad, considering that cat was angry at the wrong person. she loved ned so much that it was painful for her to be constantly reminded that ned had an ‘affair’ though her attitude towards poor jon was not justifiable
And then it turns out neither of them did anything wrong.
Also a point of ONE TALK about this with his wife could have prevented this.
„Hey Wifey just you know he is our nephew not my illegitimate child. As you sure can guess who his father is we have to keep this to us till our graves for my sister. Could you please accept him?“
Sadly it’s still more realistic that he just thought „My wife will understand me without words“
@@LittleMaitea Ned knew she couldn't keep her mouth shut any more than Sansa.
@@LittleMaitea If she couldn't even keep a promise to the gods, how could anyone expect her to keep one to a person? 🤣
Best way to keep a secret is not to tell anyone.
I know some ask “Why didn’t Ned just tell Cat who his mother really was?” My counter is if If he did, Cat might let it slip to Lysa, she definitely tells Jon Arryn (or Littlefinger, but Ned doesn’t know about that) and soon Robert would know. However remote, Ned couldn’t take that chance.
Yeah look at sansa in the show, perfect example 😂
Women cannot keep secrets. Ever. Never trust a woman. Never!
Nah that’s dumb. Ned would tell her “for the love you hold for me in your heart, and for our children we have brought into the world, you must not tell another living soul what I have told you. not your sister, not your uncle, not our children. promise me Kat” she wouldn’t tell anyone, but that would destroy the entire plot of GOT so that can’t happen obviously
@@NathanPhillips2001but she might still let it slip accidentally in front of someone who tells someone who tells someone else and so on and so forth until someone says something to someone in front of one of Littlefinger's spies who then tell Littlefinger who then tells Robert who then strips Ned of his land and titles, orders John killed, Ned to the Nights Watch, Cate and their daughters sent to the Silent Sisters, and their sons sent to different families in the South and/or Dorne as servants (one of those families being the Lannisters)
@@NathanPhillips2001I don't think so.. Because everyone around thought Ned cheated on her, so when others will make fun of her or provoke her with these things, she might, out of pride, not be able to hold it in and she will speak or suggest the truth..
This is why I love that Catelyn confession scene from the show when she feels guilty about her treatment towards Jon. That's one of the best things that D&D did
I think about that scene often. It was so hard on her being reminded that her husband was unfaithful, then the fact she knew she couldn't care for the son her husband loved so much even though she knew she wasn't being fair to the child and that he didn't deserve it. When Jon was sick she was probably relived that she was able to care about him so strongly and I believe she really did try to foster that care and make it something more, but she was only human and as such she failed once he was no longer in danger. And he was back to being a reminded that she wasn't enough for the person she loved.
@@YuugiArrythey should've fucked
That scene never happens in the book. In the show, they wanted to garner sympathy for her by making a fake scene that she prayed for Jon’s survival from illness.
@vijrever2770 Yeah, we know it's not in the book. That's why they said "that scene from the show that d&d wrote".
I think it made her more sympathetic, because ot showed she felt bad for her treatment of Jon. But it didn't change much anyway, because she still treated him the way she did with no apologies (or regrets in the books).
She’s one of few people that’s alive that knows about robs will. Hopefully she honors robs will. That is whenever jon comes back in the books. Remember she also has robs crown as well
She’s dead bruh and a zombie
They also just betrayed Jon in the books so whether he lives to tell the tale and hear the news is another
Only the show has that narrative of his resurrection
@@browniechann88blackie55well he probably will be revived like Beric Dondarrion, or Catelyn herself. Can't wait to see the zombie-zombie shenanigans
@@connaeris8230 - You're assuming he's dead in the same way. Wargs don't die like regular folks. Varamyr Six-Skins was proof of that in the prologue to A Dance with Dragons.
Says a lot about Catelyn that Ned never trusted her with the secret of Jon Snow’s true parentage.
Would presumbably have changed her attitude to Jon, she likely would have treated him nicer- rousing other peoples suspicions about Jon's origin.
@@Hero-of-Midgar She would have told her sister, who would have told littlefinger. And yk what would happen after
Catelyn Stark was very impulsive. Fear of treason would've made her betray Ned and Jon(Aegon). She would've sold them out to Robert.
Ned had no obligation to tell anyone. A secret is a secret and he is true to that.
@@nameless458 no, but he is allowed his reasons as well.
And unfortunately she gave him plenty REGARDLESS of the promise.
The spontaneous "Except maybe Sansa" at the end made my day 😂😂😂
I still believe she played Jon to become queen like she always wanted. She knew why Jon had to leave to ask for Danny's help, but she kept her silence when the banners questioned his decisions. In the end she became Queen in the North and Jon was forced to go to the wall again without honor, without nothing.
Heavy@@asuna932
sansa is her mothers daughter, after all
sad thing is in the books, Sansa actually missed Jon and wished him well. she didn't think about him often, but when she did she was glad he wasn't in KL surrounded by enemies like her or dead like the rest of their family
@@polaroizeddon’t act like you didn’t just say that shit because you saw another one of this dudes videos saying the exact same thing.
One thing that really made me dislike Catelyn in the books was the part where Jon is about to leave Winterfell for the Wall. When he goes to say his final goodbyes to Bran who still hasn't woken up since Jaimie pushed him from the tower. She calls him by his name something Jon noticed she never did before. Only for her to say "it should have been you." For a while I didn't enjoy her chapters after that.
I honestly wish that before Jon left that room he would have looked Cat in the eyes, crying and said "I wish it were."
She couldn't let herself see how good of a person Jon was. She had to make him awful in her own mind to justify her hatred of him. Ironically, her hatred for Jon is what drove him to the wall and away from Robb and his family. Had he stayed in Winterfell, it's possible that Tyrion and Jon could have worked out that the dagger belonged to Little Finger and prevented the entire war.
@@husky3gI don't think so if John was raised right and given the love and support he would be acting more like Rob or theon and would have insulted Tyrion
@husky3g good job he didn't stay or it would of been a boring series
i love the idea that Lady Stoneheart might pass on her life force to someone else and will give up her quest for vengeance, sending Brienne north with Rob's crown and have Jon named King in the North as her son wanted
You have a very high opinion of Catelyn Tully.
Nope, I don't see that ever happening. Catelyn would die once again before she'll ever place Robb's crown on Jon's head. 😂
Who does she wants revenge from? Arya killed them.
Unless she finds out about his parentage which is very likely given both Maege Mormont and Glover are headed to Greywater Watch with Robb's Will...Howland Reed is the lord there and knows Jon's parentage@@johnnk3256
@@nilanjasa007books, not show
Ned contributed of this he didn’t try to stop her from treating him like that and he didn’t stop Jon from going to nightswatch in his small aga
So true. He acted like a dick by not putting end to Catelyn's mistreats
As long as Jon Snow was in Westeros, Ned Stark knew that Tywin Lannister and Robert Baratheon could have marched on Winterfell if they ever learned about a possible royal claimant living in Winterfell.
It’s actually even hinted that Ned stark wanted Jon snow to go the watch and fed him with lies about the nights watch. Saying it was honorable and etc.he didn’t want another war starting if Robert found out jons true heritage. So yea he didn’t really keep his promise to Lyanna. I don’t doubt his love for Jon but he just didn’t want another war and would have condemned a life of cat shit to Jon if it meant preventing a war and losing his family. Would happens anyway lol.
@@slitz91 after all that he started a war with his stupidity, and let Jon suffer more and more because he wasn’t willing to do anything about that
@@SAHARR___ agreed
I wish they’d followed thru on the book storyline of having Sansa live as littlefingers bastard daughter for a while. It really helped her empathize with Jon and develop as a character.
I never read the books, but that sounds like it would have been so much better. The way the Sansa was worn for the show, I never liked her. Even by the end, I still did not like her.
The show was completely rushed after season 5. It makes sense to combine certain storylines and leave out some characters but starting with season 6 it really felt like they just wanted to end it as soon as possible. Why they couldnt dedicate 2 more years to the biggest project of their lives is beyond me.
This was abusive and honestly did more harm than good.
Some people say this was a way to steel the boy against his future rivals, but this just low-key gave him a lack of foundational support.
Love doesn't make you weaker and abuse doesn't make you stronger.
If someone is great despite being deprived, just ask yourself how much better they'd have been if they'd had everything they needed.
We lose out on many great minds this way.
And to make matters worse, he's SO much younger in the books. He starts off at a wee 14 in the first book, but has been dealing with this his whole life. Catelyn's bullying a child. -.-
I honestly can't wait to find out if lady stoneheart finds out who Jon really is and how she reacts to it
Her brain is beyond all reason now. Brienne wasn't spared, even after all she'd done for Cat and her family, even after explaining herself.
She'd kill Jon regardless of anything if she could.
@heyitsmira17 I don't think she would kill Jon - her quest now is to kill all connected to red wedding, even in the smallest way. She would not kill nor care about Jon and who he is.
@@heyitsmira17 what did she do to brienne?
@@joel5135
She made her vow to kill Jamie.
@@joel5135 she nearly hanged her to death after assuming she turned against her in favor of the Lannisters like the Bolton and Freys did
The one moment I would have highly relished is Catlyn finding out Jon's true heritage and seeing her bow.
What sucks is that this PROTECTED Jon’s life as a child!
The whole theory goes like this: This is a society where people aren’t happy about their spouse’s bastards generally, so Ned knew Catelyn would treat Jon poorly if she viewed him as his bastard son. However, she would be nicer to him if she knew of his Targaryen heritage and that could alert some people.
I’m not saying this excuses Ned or Cat’s actions. There’s definitely better solutions. But in GoT people don’t make good decisions most of the time.
Man if she had lived to find out Jon was Ned's nephew, just maaaaaan
✨"Except maybe Sansa"✨
It’s even funnier when you realize how much she went on about honor only to betray her son and turn his army against him by releasing Jamie. Dishonoring her son and the current lord/king of winterfell
Did you stop reading shortly after that? I won't spoil but Robb does a fine job of turning his men against him on his own.
@@ThommyofThenn oh no I’m talking show GOT. I’m just starting Clash of Kings in the book universe.
@@percywhite846 that's great!! I have considered it to be my favourite of the series so far. Not as much "early installment weirdness" to my knowledge, the widening political situation. There are several more reasons I could think of but you see my point
Caitlyn was one of those characters i couldn't stand, in the books or the show. They kind of present her as the Ying to Cerci's Yang, but in reality the only real difference was in their style. Cerci was more vain. She also had the flaw of always overestimating her own ability, and understanding everyone else's. Beyond that they were very similar, Caitlyn just hid it better.
For me, the worst part of this was Catelyn's not only projecting the sins of the father onto the son, but her simultaneous inability to process Ned having a secret Dornish love, while continuing to hold a place for her heart for Brandon. It seems hypocritical.
And funny enough, Jon might be Ashara’s and BRANDON’s child. If this is true, ironically Cat was holding infidelity over Ned’s head when he stayed true (except maybe Wylla) and holding Brandon to be true when he wasn’t. Classic GRRM
@@JohnSmith-dz2dc no. There'd be no point to Jon's character if he was Brandon's child. He's either Rhaegar and Lyanna's child, or he's got no place in the story. Ashara's child was the stillborn girl, and if she isn't Eddard Stark's child, then she'd have no relevance to the plot. Besides, if it were Brandon's child, there would be no need to hide his identity, or spread stories in Starfall about Eddard and Ashara.
@@JohnSmith-dz2dc He's not, GRRM confirmed he's the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna.
The Ashara rumor was probably just a contingency planted by Ned himself in case, Lyanna's child is born with Targaryen features. By claiming Ashara as a possible mother, he'd be able to explain it.
@@Borderose no, that makes no sense, because if Ned had started it, he could've used it to get out of any trouble with Catelyn. As Harwin told Arya, Brandon was at that time, Catelyn's betrothed, and neither Ashara nor Ned were pledged. So the dishonor was nonexistent. Instead, he forced Catelyn to never even consider it.
Cat was so concerned Jon would become a legitimized Stark & end up harming her children’s status. She ended up being their larger downfall.
Technically they're not his half-siblings either, but cousins 😲😂
"EXCEPT MAYBE SANZA." Perfect shot
IUHFDGSUSJIKDFSGJNFKDSIDSF The shade--
People are so quick to judge a woman in this situation, essentially made a laughing stock to other nobility (the way Jaime taunted her for example), and she gets no explanation. The man she loved seemingly betrayed her, and I’m willing to bet it caused a rift between her and Ned, Jon wasn’t the only one to get that treatment I suppose. If a man had a bastard he wasn’t looked at any differently, it was the woman who was looked at shamefully, as if she couldn’t uphold her own marriage.
It’s heartbreaking yes but pouring your hatred on an innocent won’t change sht. It already happened anyway, and that’s not the child’s fault:
Trauma does that. People can become obsessed with their traumatizer. That's what Ramsey meant when he said that he would always be a part of her on the show. He was right.
Made him cry and this is a world where ned tells his sons it's not good to cry and at brans age as well if anyone wants to try and defend her actions. Imagine how much damage cat would have done and then some especially now a days
Funny enough that very abuse was weaponized against her and her future actions that onky caused more damage and her very son to go as well
Seriously cat. Jon is older so of course he'd be better than rob and mentioning Jon's mom was also a touchy subject whether it's ashara lyanna or the fisherman daughter
Jon and Robb have a difference of a couple months, a year at most
Jon would be older by a few months at best, and we don't know the exact timeline of the war. Even then she believed he was a bit younger than Jon, because Ned only "conceived" him after conceiving Robb with her and leaving.
Stop with abuse bro. Cat never "abused" him.
@@rocktheconqueror6903 You're delusional if you think telling a child that they should have died or been crippled isn't abuse.
She mentally abused him that much is true.@@rocktheconqueror6903
Not telling Cat the truth about Jon was one of the only times Ned was savvy, she wasn't at all trustworthy and he knew she wouldn't keep the secret.
I hated Catelyn so much for what she did to Jon. My only wish was that she found out who he really was. She’d be arrogant enough to rationalize it though.
I like how the show added in a scene explaining that no matter what she swore or tried to force, Cat couldn't make herself love Jon, and she couldn't make herself forget.
I wonder how cat would of feel when the boltons took the castle of winterfell and John took it back
I wish more people would accept that Catelyn was a terrible person. Jon was an innocent child, it's as nonsensical as getting angry at the other woman instead of your husband for cheating!
From her pov, she fears that a bastard can take the place of her children with his claims on Winterfell because of his parentage with Ned.
Furthermore, he is the only Stark with Arya to look like Ned which can sparks some controversies and requestion Catelyn own child who all look like hers.
In another society, or even in Dorne tbh, Jon and Catelyn would've lived peacefully.
@@theberserker6000 yes and her brilliant solution was to treat a little boy like trash and potentially turn him against the family. This wasn't about political strategy or conflicting inheritances. She was cruel to him out of no other reason but personal resentment toward Ned for cheating and jealousy for whoever Jon's mother was to seduce the famous Ned Stark.
I feel like the word “terrible” is way too extreme. She had her flaws but are we going to judge her entire character based on how she treated one person?
I personally didn't like her cast as Catelyn to she really didn't fit visually. That being said whatever happened you can't blame a kid. Far too many people blame kids for things that either parent caused. It's a non starter for me.
Martin: *writes a book about complex grey characters who have their flaws and weaknesses *
You: guys more people need to accept that this fictional character was a TERRIBLE person
The King in the North!
She got everyone killed by kidnapping Tyrion.
After all she went through, Sansa recongnized that she even missed Jon
Sometimes the bullies in your life, feed your inner monster. Making you a better you.
Sansa absolutely as she's her mother all over
That’s not true. They had a good relationship in the books. Sansa was distant, but kind. Not at all Catelyn.
@@juliacastro817Sansa never stopped calling Jon his "step brother" as soon as she understood what that meant. Sooo no.
@@juliacastro817 Lol no. Sansa is a stone cold ḅịṭċḥ, just like her mother.
@@WobblesandBeanAbout half of the moments that Jon and Sansa had, she used to play with him and his other siblings but Catelyn taught her the meaning of the Word "Bastard" and every since then she avoided him like the plague
@@juliacastro817
Wrong. It's true.
Bastardy my new favorite word.
Poor Jon. That is all a big misunderstanding. It is revealed that Jon was legitimate all the time, and that he is actually Ned's nephew. This was a big secret. If Catlin knew, she would have been easier on Jon. Ned and Caitlin got married through betrothal instead of by choice. They did fall in love eventually though. Betrothal is unfortunate. Ned probably didn't know Catlin very well when they got married. So he wouldn't have trusted her to keep the secret. Maybe the issue was dropped entirely between them years later.
Like sansa did right😂
He took an oath not to tell anyone
Funny enough, him joining the Night watch probably saved him from the Red Wedding
I love how nobody gives Ned shit and never giving any sort of explanation for Jon or do anything with him. All ned did was tell her to stop asking or face the consequences and since she's a woman she has to accept it or be beaten, shamed, or detained.
Angry about that too. Though, if anyone found out Jon was the possible heir to the throne, there may have been another war or more assassinations.
Yep, Ned was fully willing to threaten Catelyn about Jon’s identity and heritage but never willing to stand up against her abusive treatment of him over the years. What a joke of a man. Is letting your wife abuse your “son” and constantly make him feel like an interloper in his ancestral home what Ned meant when he said he was “honorable”?
Ned Stark chose to die for his “honor” rather than stay alive to protect his vulnerable daughters from their enemies. Ned Stark didn’t care that his sister didn’t want to marry his whoremongering best friend and called it “honorable”. Ned Stark said that Jaime had no “honor” because he killed a King who had massacred so many innocents, just because Jaime once made a vow to protect the monster. Ned Stark allowed his wife and a lowly septa to treat Arya like a wild and ugly animal and called this “honor”.
Ned Stark had no honor.
@@Doomzdeh All cat did was ignore him his whole life if it was any other woman Jon would have died before the age of 10 and as a bastard he would have always been treated like an outsider if it was strictly just Cat she wouldn't have mentioned that everybody was talking mad shit about her and ned when Ashara was brought up.
@@Doomzdeh Many men had bastards but taking in and raising them as apart of the family was not the normal or even the exception to strive for. The fact that Cat gets more shit than Ned over Jon is ridiculous she deadass has zero power and authority in the North outside of being the wife of the most respected man in the north.
@@Doomzdeh Ned had zero control over his sister's marriage he's literally just a spare son who got sold off to the vale for warding to build relationships. And as for Robert his whoremonger ways seems more of a side effect of his parents dying before his eyes when he was like about 10-12. Mya Stone was the only one he had before he was setup to wed Lyanna his ideal woman.
I always found Kat and Jon's relationship profoundly sad and frustrating because she was his mom. At the end and beginning of the day none of us get to choice our parents. The moment Ned came home with that baby she had one choice, be a good mom or a bad one and she chose wrong. Her pride and ego wouldn't let her embrace a baby and it was a conscious choice she actively aged herself 20 years with hate and bile and bitterness. She knew she was doing it she knew what it was doing to her and still decided to torment him. Jon would have loved her probably does in a weird desperate for her approval sort of way. Jon took the black I believe in part because he thought once it was clear he wasn't a threat to her offspring's succession she would chill TF out but up till the last second she was a stone cold bitch.
Here is the thing. If I just got married and my husband left for years and came back with another woman’s child (as what she thought), I would never forgive him for that. I can’t completely be mad at her for that but I also can’t forgive her for how she treated Jo . As the reader, we figured out that Ned wasn’t Jon’s father, but she never did, so we are a bit biased. Just thought I would throw in my two-cents!
Surprise surprise humans aren’t robots
@@NRB_EndArc yeah be mad at your husband that baby didn’t do a damn thing to you. Even if we didn’t know what we know she’s clearly out of line. So out of line that even after Jamie through Brand from the tower he still managed to take the high ground on her in their conversation, because you hurt kids too and she knew it. Here sister said Kate always goes for the shiniest thing, Jamie called her out point blank when he said “you’re not the type of women who could embrace her husband’s bastard. This women spent the rest of her life using Jon as a proxy to fight a women she invented in her head.
@@sheikdagod9592 Lol you're all psychotic.... How dare she not be the type of woman to accept her husbands bastard... She should have smiled in response :))))
You all miss the point. It's such a dishonourable act that Ned would never do it
@@Shannon-vv6rr How dear she not be an adult instead of a child you mean. She should have moved on we can apricate the writing and learn the lesson.
Sansa was never cruel too Jon; she was just very matter of fact about jon being her half brother.
But in the context of her moms cruelty towards him, it seems to co-sign the behavior at the very least.
she isnt cruel but also isnt nice toward him ether. She was an immature girl at the start of the books.
@@kahlilg9824mom's cruelty ? You mean by giving him death stares and cold shoulders. Clearly sansa is more cruel cuz she interacted with him, cat didn't even do that..
@@randomguyontheinternet8345 - And in A Feast For Crows, she thinks it would be nice to see Jon again. They're intertwined in a lot of ways....way more than just what is on the surface if you reread the books. Jon has a thing for redheads, after all.....and he once described her as 'radiant'....
@@rocktheconqueror6903 if she so casually says that she wishes he was paralyzed, followed up with his reaction to being called a bastard, wanting to be a legitimate Stark and him accepting the NW, a literal penal colony, without abandon what does that say about his treatment during his 14 years?
I know Ned refused to tell anyone the circumstances of Jon’s birth but I’m really surprised that the “good, noble and honorable” Ned stark would stand by and do nothing knowing that his wife treated an innocent child unfairly. It seems that Ned fully trusted catelyn but even if he didn’t wanna tell her the whole story at the very least he could have told her he’s not actually my bastard but for his safety that’s what the world needs to believe. Just telling her that would have probably changed the entire relationship between jon and catelyn and knowing that Jon wasn’t a reminder of her husband’s infidelity she most likely would have raised him as a son or at least a member of the family and having a loving relationship with her would have drastically changed jobs life and personality entirely and maybe even the story as a whole.
I don’t think Ned would trust anyone with his nephew’s secret except maybe Benjen. Also Catelyn would figure it out. Who else would it be but Lyanna’s kid?
Ned was not long married to Cat when he found out about Lyanna. The realm would have wanted the Starks dead for what they did. He didn‘t only protect Jon he protected the north and the realm… Imagine finding out that the war was lie! So many people died that time
Also all the women in Game of Thrones are extremely selfish. If Catelyn is this angry about knowing Ned’s Bastard then if she found out her husband is hiding and taking the blame for a kid who isn’t even his. Then she wouldn’t keep it a secret and share it to everyone. Ned did the right thing even if she was cruel to Jon atleast he was safe.
As someone who was abused I hate how Ned gets a free pass. I can accept there are reasons not to tell her of Jon's real parentage, but he stood by and allowed her to abuse him. That makes him just as guilty of the abuse. He had all the ability and power to step in, but he didn't. He is just as bad
Why is this channel bringing back memories of something that i have forgot over the years after a disappointing season finale😢
This is why Ned didn't tell Catelyn about Jon's secret. If this is how she behaved with a bastard supposedly conceived by a freshly married man out to war for a year, imagine how she would've reacted to a royal bastard that could theoretically try to claim the whole seven kingdoms 😬
Catelyn would have probably proposed to kill him just because he was putting her own children in danger
''a bastard supposedly conceived by a freshly married man out to war for a year'' you seem really out-of-touch and think this is acceptable, the way you word it... Strange. Who cares if he was freshly married or at war for a year? It doesn't excuse cheating tf. The point should be that that's such a dishonourable act that Ned would never do it... that's the whole point.
@@Shannon-vv6rrAffairs in the military and while on Campaign is such a common occurrence that a lot of people in the military don't even bat an eye at it.
@shannon - girl hush . In Medieval times men went to war usually with war prostitutes following their trail to keep them company . Married or not they felt the need to use sex to release tensions. You are the one out of touch applying modern concept to ancient norms 😮💨
@@blazergamer6425 just admit you cheat, 'many people don't bat an eye' is ridiculous and it's so silly the people trying to normalize a dishonourable act as if marrying a woman and within a year cheating and bringing back a newborn baby is anywhere near okay. Men and the limits they jump to make anything seem acceptable. I will say it only once more- The whole point and irony of the Jon situation is that Ned would never do that, because it's such a dishonourable act, but he had to pretend he did, even to his own wife. to keep his nephew safe.
@@Shannon-vv6rr I take it you weren't in the military but still in Neds case it's possible because he was in Campaign for over a Year legit anything could have happened I am not saying cheating is ok I am saying in those kinds of military environments it is pretty normalized in fact there is a part where the Robbs Northern Army killed 2 women and hung them above the road because they refused to give their "services" to them so it really is not above Nedd as a Northern man to sleep with a random woman on campaign kinda like keeping secrets from Robert about his 3 bastard kids after talking to cersei.
This is why the red wedding is my fav and last fully watched episode.
As in the books Rob did write an letter legitimizing Jon as a stark. Only that way lord Frey could have accepted Jon as the husband for his daughter and maybe not plan the red wedding. That’s the only way he could have saved rob IMO
I feel like nobody ever talks about what a terrible person Catelyn was. I mean, obviously she’s not as bad as other characters but she made all the wrong decisions and just wasn’t a good person in any way.
The one decision that she was right about was keeping Greywind near Rob. Otherwise yeah she mentally tortured a young boy because she wasn’t woman enough to bring her grievances up with Ned.
@@ezdub5762 Also she warned Robb not to send Theon to see his dad. Robb should have listened there.
Catelyn is not a bad person at all it is a horrible betrayal of trust what Ned supposedly did and this was after they had actually grown to love each other only for Ned to fuck around while at war (we all know not really) and besides when it actually came down to it she did care about Jon and stayed with him when he was deathly sick from fever till it broke her emotions are 100% reasonable and her resentment toward Jon is understandable and she is probably one of the most caring mothers in the series for her kids Catelyn Stark is a flawed person yes by all means say that but she certainly isn’t a bad person
Oh there are youtube channels (a bunch of them) dedicated to hating Catelyn Starks, they spent hours and hours on videos bashing her and criticizing her every moves LOL.
This is why I love GRRM books, most of the 'main' players have 'warts.' I love how gray or black most of the main characters are.
Thinking "did you know in the books" before before every video starts
Everyone saying they hated catelyn because of it I think is not understanding her flaw is what shows her humanity. Imagine being forced to raise a child that isn’t yours because your husband said he was unfaithful. This is why early game of thrones is so good, because while most of these characters have honor and integrity it shows their human sides as well, and shows that even though they fulfill their duties they still feel and have emotions.
To be honest, Catelyn didn't raise John. She only dealt with him the few times she couldn't pretend he wasn't there.
for those who ask “Why didn’t Ned just tell Cat who his mother really was?”.
remember what happened after jon told sansa and arya
Now that's some powerful stuff. That same look flashed before my eyes too.
If Catelyn abused Jon, Ned abused Theon.
Just wish Ned would’ve told her like he trusted her more than anyone and saw how painful it was for her and subsequently Jon he could’ve just told her and trusted her to keep the secret ?
I've never liked Catelyn much....... And yes I am 200% biased in favor of Jon
Ned should’ve told Catelyn about Jon. That’s his blood regardless. She seems like that type of ride or die chick if Ned had just been entirely honorable as he thought he was and simply told her the truth of his sisters son with Rhaegar. The only downside would’ve been lying to Robert to keep Jon alive.
Jon made me accept being a bastard.
Her fucked up treatment of him is what darkens Jon and pushes him to make twisted yet strategic decisions for the better like swapping little Sam with Dallas’s son.
Ned did the right thing not telling anyone including his wife. Notice how people love to chitchat especially on idle time? Double that with woman, sound -ist but it is what it is. You can't risk it if involves life and death
Ned allowed his wife to believe he cheated on her rather than risk revealing John's identity. Ironically, had Ned just told her, it would have potentially saved Rob.
Sure Cat would have been nicer to him and maybe even loved him had she been on the secret but she'd probably end up messing things up like how she ruined her family by arresting Tyrion. Imagine if she walked in on that part where Joff was being rude to the boys and mindlessly blurted it out to shut up Joffrey.
She is not that stupid 😂
@@JoSheperdshe was stupid enough to trust a maesteir, Ned did well by not telling her
@@heyitsmira17 Uh that maester was Luwin, pal. Luwin was loyal to death.
Narrator: Drops Bastardy multiple times.
Me: Is that a word? *Alonzo Mourning.gif*
This is a great example of how adults can cause long lasting psychological damage to children with their thoughtless or casual cruelties.
She knows who he is; she knew how dangerous he was to children.
I really wish I could see her goofy face when she learns the truth. Even as lady Stoneheart I would think there’d be some reaction
I disagree, Ned taught him honor. Ramsey was also reminded of his bastardry but that didnt make him any more honorable 😅
Why didn’t he tell her he was his nephew? And spare her that grief of thinking he was unfaithful and Jon thinking he was a bastard🤦🏽♀️
Because he needed her emotions to be genuine, in other to avoid suspicion that jon is a targarian
Cause she wouldnt keep that secret, she traded Jamie to Save Her daughters she would prob do the same with johns secret
I never thought about it that way.
It's easy to judge people from readers prospective. As readers/viewers we already knew so many things. But for the involved characters the situation was pretty complex and difficult. In the book for example Baelish at the beginning seemed to be a very trustful person (I mean he was really like a brother to Cat).
In my opinion overall Catelyn was a very smart lady, a true lady of westeros. But you need to contextualise every decision. She didn't not convince Ned to be the hand of the king. She only reminded Ned that the king is the king and he couldn't accept a refuse from Ned.
She wanted also a good marriage for her children. But if you read deeply her chapters, you realise how many times he warned Robb about his future mistakes. She warned Robb not to break the promise with the Freys. She was the only one who suspected Bran did not fall casually from the tower. She was among the first people to suspect about Lannisters incest. She warned Robb about not sending Theon back to the iron islands (witch it lead to the fall of winterfell). She was the only one during the war who called for a peace with the crown (the lords of the north laughed back at her), instead of keeping fight in the south. She negotiated a very good alliance with Renly and she was the only Stark who almost at the end understood all that shit that was coming. (Remember her words: "Walder Frey is a dangerous man to cross") If Robb had listened more to her, many disgraces wouldn't have never happened.
She was a complex, human, flawed character. But in the end, very smart, smarter than Cersei for sure. But she was also very impulsive. She cared a lot about her children, but not in a selfish manner like Cersei.
I guess you just need to give some context to the character and to the whole situation.
I love her character so much and I think she's one of the most well written and tragic characters made by Martin.
Catelyn was an idiot. Being hateful to Jon as if he chose to be there. I can't stand her whiny ass chapters. I skip them often as not when reading through the books again now. Stoneheart was an improvement on her. But her little encounter with Brienne was proof enough that it didn't make her anymore bright smh.
She wasn't an idiot, she believed in rules and morals and traditions to a fault. Probably because of the way she was raised. Her two siblings really are idiots though 😂
@@connaeris8230tradition or not it's pretty idiotic to hate a kid for what the did.
@connaeris8230 pretty idiotic to seize the son of the most powerful lord in the land off of an emotional whim. Pretty idiotic to hate a child for the assumed actions of his father because you're too weak and scared to take your childish qualms out on the one that caused them. Just saying. Her relation to her siblings shows.
@@fallenknighttyler8695Than more than half of the world population are idiots,because hating people for who their parents are and they've done is unfortunately pretty common☹️
@@FatherhoodAndFitnessso if you're wife cheated on you,and then forced you to raise and love that child you would do that?LOL cut the crap😂,you would hate that child's guts,Cate's actions are not justifiable but perfectly understandable
Most people will judge Catelyn, but she was legitimely afraid of Jon taking everything from her own children due to him being the only son of Ned who looks like him. She was afraid that North would see him as Ned's true heir. Not to mention Ned's special treatment of him meant that he could have loved his mother perhaps more than he ever loved Cat. The fact that she was the perfect wife to Ned, yet her kids could still be denied because of a bastard born out of a simple fling, was hard pill for the dutiful Cat to swallow.
She started the whole war..
A living train wreck
There's no reason Ned couldn't have told Cat. She could be trusted and he would have an ally in protecting Jon.
"Except sansa" yes well she is so much like her mother, visually and spiritually
Her instincts told her he wasnt the half Stark everyone thought him to be but her husband told her he was,and this hurt massively, so she was conflicted. She couldnt ever put her finger on it and she wasnt that clever, so she mistreated jon out of her own frustration
I never liked Catelyn. It was painful to see Robb killed at the Red Wedding, but I felt nothing seeing Catelyn killed. Not saying she deserved it, I just didn’t find her very likeable.
To be fair, he saw Robb the exact same way in that particular vision... So its not really about the treatment...
Why is Ned portrayed as honor obsessed? Obsession has negative connotations when Ned’s characterization is as the one not self serving major lord of Westeros
The one that should be blamed is Ned Stark. He should have trust and tell Catelyn the truth of Jon's identity. Both Catelyn and Jon would not be in pain - as cheated or as bastard.
Ned was a real G for not even telling his wife that Jon was really his nephew 😂😂 most ppl would have let it slip
They live in each other head’s rent free
Blue eyes?
A White Walker?
Its sad Cat could never know about Jon. It would have made her less harsh to Jon and not be jaded in that spot toward Ned but I really dont know if she would have kept to to herself, especially when Ned and Robb first get back after the war. Having a Targaryen babe would have been such a betrayal to what they just did and eveyone at the time still feared what the Mad King had done and probably feard any heir. I really want to believe that she would have kept the secret but i just dont know.
Please talk about the fight between Robb and Catlyn when he told her he would make a royal pardon to Jon so he could be his Heir
"half siblings" his cousins xd
I think if Catelyn had known about Jon's heritage, she would've treated him too kindly, making it more suspicious than so openly despising him as she did. Her lack of knowledge of the truth is what made his bastardy so believable, because he wasnt treated the same as the Stark kids.
If Catelyn had known, she would've treated him the same she treated her children. Perhaps she would've acted more cold when not in the safety of their keep, but the ears of Kings Landing were known to hear all the way to Winterfell, so that wouldnt have worked either.
Robb needed Jon more than she would realize and it cost him.
That is why he didn't mention her after the red wedding while he mention robb
I feel like Ned could’ve trusted Cat with everything. He could’ve told her about Jon’s true parentage and I think she would’ve kept her mouth sealed.
yes Alive in whitewalkers tent 😂😂😅
Ned killed his own honor to protect John. 😢
Sorry but Catelyn was a terrible person for this. Even if he truly was a bastard, it wasn't his fault thay he was born.
From the way how I see it Ned Stark is the one at fault by not telling his wife the truth and maybe things would have been different for Jon Snow what do all of you think?
Assuming R+L=J is true, I think it would have been wise for him to tell her. Maybe not immediately after the rebellion ended (since he didn’t know if he could trust her silence) but after enough time in their loving marriage I’m shocked he didn’t tell if just for Jon’s sake so she didn’t mistreat him
Today is the first time I thought of "bastardy" as the condition of being a bastard.
*”ExceptmaybeSansa”*
💀💀💀💀💀💀💀
Perhaps she knew(sensed) he was of royal blood?
Catelyn’s behavior to him is just vile and shows she isn’t a good person.
Mama issues 😂😂
I just realized. He thought the more honor he proved then maybe she'll love him but it made her think he wanted that thrown even more 😮