How to test a computer controlled solenoid - power/ground side identification
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.ค. 2024
- For more information on this topic, I have written a “field manual” called Engine Performance Diagnostics which is available at www.scannerdanner.com as an eBook or paper book.
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Disclaimer:
Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, it cannot guarantee against unauthorized modifications of this information, or improper use of this information. ScannerDanner LLC assumes no liability for property damage or injury incurred as a result of any of the information contained in this video. ScannerDanner LLC recommends safe practices when working with power tools, automotive lifts, lifting tools, jack stands, electrical equipment, blunt instruments, chemicals, lubricants, or any other tools or equipment seen or implied in this video. Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, no information contained in this video shall create any express or implied warranty or guarantee of any particular result. Any injury, damage or loss that may result from improper use of these tools, equipment, or the information contained in this video is the sole responsibility of the user and not ScannerDanner LLC. - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
I go back and watch these videos and get enlightened all over again!! Thank u!!
So true am watching this 4 yrs later and it makes so more much sense as ive put scanner ideas into my diagnosis
Thank you. You are genuinely doing a great public service just by being yourself, fantastic work my friend!
There is no better video than this video explaining how to identify power and ground side switched circuits and how to test them and what is good , what is bad , ❤❤👍👍👍 thank you
I've watched this three times. However, it never really made total sense and became clear until I watched your short tutorial with ETCG on PS/GS side switched circuits. Thanks so much for all of your work.
+Baxrok2 thank you!
High side vs. Low Side drivers.....love it Paul
Thanks for every single info you share with us you are amazing paul thank you 💓
Always good to revisit a subject such as this. Thanks
This is hands down the BEST automotive repair video I've ever watched. Completely electrically inept, and I learned a lot. Thank you!
+Joseph Julicher thanks Joseph! I really appreciate your kind words.
You made power and ground side switching explanation so clear and precise it's like magic Paul. I'm serious....great video once again! Last week I diagnosed a defective EVAP canister purge solenoid on my 4th gen Corvette. I bench tested it and found mini bits of charcoal inside the solenoid...it 'froze' stuck and would not open. Hoping I can edit the video soon and post it to help others. Turns out the charcoal canister internally failed and engine vacuum sucked the charcoal into the solenoid when it opened. Crazy I had never seen this before. The symptoms of a clogged vacuum tube/solenoid not working...extreme fuel vapor pressure when removing the gas cap! Never had a trouble code...1993 model OBD 1.
Hey Paul,
Great teaching and I hope the young men and women in your class know the value of your knowledge you share with them. You provide excellent and clear instruction. On the purge solenoid you were testing, if it did not have an accessible vacuum port would it have been worth having the students look at upstream 02's and STFT while you activated it to look for a rich change to verify operation? Sure would love to sit in on your classes. Keep up the great work! ---Eric O. S.M.A.
I bought the subscription to ScannerDanner premium channel I am not sorry that i did. you are in the classroom while he teaches. Highly recommended. of course South Main Auto Repair ain't too shabby either!
So in this video, we learn about bidirectional control of a circuit. We also learn about using a DVM for a jumper/ammeter. Scan tool, both types of test lights, DVM and t-pins. Wow! Thank u Paul!!
Thank you Bill!
Love the information I get from mr danner I've never been a scope type of guy and I have actually owned an old snap on vantage but it sat in my toolbox so I traded it for something Elise . Now I've got a Autel ms906ts scanner but I'm not sold on the scope you can buy for it so I have bought a nice used versus and I can't wait to tear into my 03 eclipse just to watch the sensors work . Looking to go on my own again part time for this kind of work . I see these electoral shops charge a fortune just to fix simple and of course not so simple stuff . I am definitely going to stick my fingers in that piece of pie and get me some a few months down the road .
Grate seeing it and reading it makes learning better. Thanks
Its always nice seeing your diagnosis
Excellent video, as usual. Great content and demonstrations.
Ok, I watched this video in parts a dozen times. I am following it all now but I have to go out to the shop and do hands on practice to really drive it home.
Great video Paul!! I have learn a lot of new diagnosis strategies with your videos, God bless you! By the way I have acquire the Verus Pro! Awesome tool!! follow all your Verus videos as well, I feel very confortable with the Verus, like a pro now!! Thanks a lot!!
That's great Maic! Thank you too!
Thank you for another perfect video!!!
Another fantastic video Paul.
Paul i learned more in 22.32 minutes than entire semester in school.
good job the attention to detail i have been on many training courses but you exactly do you explain the thinking for diagnosis . I am a mechanic and automotive electronics for 18 years but draw your films as Tarantino movies hehe .
PRODIGY Sir ScannerDanner
My teacher
God bless you and all your family around you Sir ScannerDanner for sharing what you know with us Thank you very much
Take care and have a great day
My teacher
PRODIGY Sir ScannerDanner
From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧
Great video! Well illustrated.. Thanks! ;-)
I watch this video 3years ago and I still remember everything
Yeah you pretty good Mr. Danner!
Great video. On the A/C circuit, I believe, w/out having a wiring diagram, the pcm controls a relay in the PDC (power distribution center) sending power to the A/C clutch. So even though the A/C is power side controlled at the clutch, the pcm controls the relay on the ground side.
That is correct but the concept is the same as far as circuit ID and testing on a power side switched circuit.
It even shows that this concept can be used on a non computer controlled switching circuit.
Good video.
you are the BEST ....
tnk broth to show us easy way to check for pawer or ground computer control i like it
thank you...
Awesome!
Hello sir,can i use multimeter as a jumper wire even for a lower current?ex.lower than 100 or lower than 50 if i dont have incandescent testlight, if it safe for the computer?
i understand now 100% thnx
+KURDISTAN uk no problem! thank you
I sure like the way you use your the ammeter side of your multimeter as a jumper set, after verifying circuit design. Not only do you get instant amperage readings, you also have a fuse inside the ammeter to hopefully protect the circuit if you make a mistake. I can't say how many times I've fried the ammeter side of various meters, every time slapping myself in the forehead like Mo in the three stooges. It hasn't happened in the last decade, but surely it will happen again one day. So far, touch wood, I haven't yet fried a PCM....
your best video danner u look like me scanner hooked in modus ultra vantage pro and meter and wires everywhere I get nervous when people ask if tgey should start car lmao check for wires lol
I had a jeep just like that in my shop not that long ago and the air box was cracked on top of the throttle body which looks like that one is as well. It caused some running issues and a dtc.
How to determine which Computer connected components can be tested with the incandescent light and which require the "computer safe" LED light? Superb video, thank you.
The "computer safe" LED test lights will get you in trouble more than help you. (misdiagnosis of circuits) Just make sure you know what your test light current draw is. The one I use you can find on my website on the tools page. www.jbtoolsales.com/otc-3633-mini-circuit-tester#oid=1014_1
It draws about 180 - 200 ma of current and is good for testing most output circuits. When would I suggest an LED test light? For stepper motor circuits and base circuit control or triggering of a transistor.
Thanks for watching and great question!
Hi Danner, I was testing the vacuum regulating valve (for turbo actuator). It is supposed to show pulse curve , a kind of square voltage at both ends. With my scope, I see just a line of 12 v max witout up and down. Is the ecm itself who supply the pulse curve or it is the electrovalve. What do you think please. The car is Toyota avensis.thank you.
good lord your videos danner I like the scanner you use where it could get one of those'm from mexico and I do not lose any of your videos I have a workshop and I work'll fix elctronicos problems until today pond in me to become well my travajo an served me well your videos
You say that a test light has to be used with a faulty or open coil, would you be able to put the scope positive lead to battery and earth lead to control wire? For earth switching.
Is it normal if my purge valve only ticks sometimes, even if the engine is hot? Does it have to tick consistently?
Hola Mr. Danner, great video as always love them all, my question is while doing these test does the key has to be on all the time (KOEO) for the ground side switch?
i heard that for the ac clutch it is needed to be running (KOER) if i don't have a scanner
saludos from Mexico
+Edgar Castañeda it depends on the circuit you are working on, you may need the engine running on some
hi paul how would you know that five volts is a bias voltage I first saw that and thought problem or high resistance in wire lol am i stupid
baxrock2 I liked to watch that etcg video, what is etcg or put link please its also a little confusing to me. thanks
Can someone please help me key on engine off
I'm getting 1.79 volts in both sideshow
Unplug 1.79 and control side 0.0 im really confuse 07 dodge caliber purge valve p0444
I don't know where to start I'm not getting any voltage from either side is probably the tipm?
so Paul if I went on my pulse with on my modus ultra and used my other scanner for bi directional control it should work just fine for power side and ground side switches
I would use a voltage scale, not the graphed pulse width. You want to see amplitude of these signals and the signature of the waveform.
thanks Paul keep up the great videos
What's a good but less expensive scanner to buy? Does a guy even need an expensive one? I've got an Actron that I paid 100 bucks for a number of years ago. Today you can probably get 50 times that much scanner for less money. Sooner or later it all boggles my mind. I like your lessons on using test lights and DVMs to check sensors, drivers, and wires.
Thanks again.
You'll be spending close to $1,000 for a decent bi-directional scan tool
I have one of those expensive test light from snap on was like $68 and I absolutely hate it I'm gonna get one with an actual light bulb in it
Hi, sir danner :)
can i ask a favor do you have a electrical troubleshooting in c.r.d.i engines?
i just want to know sir how you will attack crdi engines sir ,
Thank's :)
My 86 ranger 2.3 egr relays rubber attaching holder broke and the two egr relays sounded like lifter noise. Took them all out and couldnt find problem. Got really bad, drove it 1 year not being able to understand. Not a mechanic. Maybe shade tree. Wraped them in foam and brought them off the metal fender. Still dont why they pulse and whats wrong
Can an autel control solenoids and stuff like this do you know? Thank you so much for all the info
yes, absolutely and this is where the Autel shines is within it's bi-directional control capability
Hi Paul, sorry if I keep saying this, but great vid, again! Question: how were you so certain up front that your incandescent test light would not harm the driver. Was is just general knowledge that that kind of solenoid would need about 300mA to energise? When and what kind of circuit/driver would you NOT use an incandescent test light? Remember the vid where you recommended using a 5K ohm resistor to put power side into a sensor (TPS) ground? How do you judge when it's ok; when not? thanks:-)
+Alex Messina All really great questions and too much to answer in print. This is all stuff I cover in class. Would you like a coupon for a free month of my premium channel?
This would be Section 3 material
Does it matter where, in the circuit, you put the AMP meter in order to get the correct reading? I know you put the meter on the NEG side of the circuit. What if you put it on the POS side?
Doesnt change anything.
Thank you, Mr Paul, for your great teachings. Just to confirm, In a power side switched solenoid, the output state monitor wants to see 0v with driver off and 12v with driver on and in a ground side switched, the output state monitor wants to see 12v with the driver off and 0v with the driver on ?
Plese a simple yes or no answer is good enough for me.
Yes sir
Thank you so much, Sir. Happy new year!
I noticed you checked the computer driver with the Solenoid unplugged with the test light.can you also test the pcm driver with the solenoid plugged in ?
Yes, but if the solenoid is shorted you can get misleading results.
When you are back probing the purge solenoid, you have the negative black lead of the DVM clipped onto a good ground ok but do you have the ignition switch on or off? I'm working on a 1993 Pontiac TransSport with it's OBD 1 system. Does checking for ground feed from the PCM require jumping the A and B terminals on the Diagnostic socket or... and does it require the ignition key to be ein? Been reading and youtubing too much causing me to revert to not knowing my backside from a hole in ground 🙃
Ignition on so the circuit has power. And if you're testing to see if the computer will switch the solenoid on (ground side switched), then one method without a scan tool to command it on, was the jump the ALDL pins A and B HOWEVER, some of the years before OBDII (96) 93-95 or 94-95, pin A or B was missing, so you couldn't do this test
@@ScannerDanner EXCELLENT. Both pins on this particular ALDL connector have pins; The A terminal is ground, B terminal power. I should check to see what voltage B is. I assumed it was 12V?
Interesting that the LED light won't energize the solenoid circuit. So an LED test light has more resistance than an incandescent test light... as in I=E/R?
My head is telling me an LED light would allow more voltage to energize the solenoid circuit but restrict the amperage too much; Am I seeing that correctly?
@@leh3827 no reason to check voltage on Pin B, not sure that I ever have, so I couldn't tell you what it is. It wouldn't be 12 I don't think? Anyway, this will make the check engine light flash and the ECM will cycle some outputs, but not all.
And yes, too much resistance in the LED for doing bypass testing. The incandescent light has less resistance so you'll get more voltage drop on the solenoid (which is desired) and more current flow. Ideally we want to drop all the voltage across a load in a circuit but we use a light instead of a jumper wire in case we accidentally get our polarity wrong, so we don't fry the ECM driver
Does anybody know of an inexpensive scan tool with solenoid functional check capability? I know how to test the solenoids themselves, but I have no way to test the drivers to be sure they're switching on and off.
What is bi-directional control? Is that related to a bias voltage somehow? I don't think so because you said you would address bias voltage at another time but I had to ask.
A bi-directional test is one where you take a scan tool and command certain outputs to turn on and off. A bi-directional scan tool is one that can read information and command hence the term bi-directional
Sir may I know what sensor you are testing for, how many wires that sensor have subscribers from the Philippines tnx Sir
Is a bias voltage the same as a reference signal? My head is swimming but I have taken in as much as I can first time around. Thanks
Is a bias voltage the same as a reference signal?
The terms can be mixed up based on who you talk to, but they are different.
A reference voltage would be the sensor power supply (like the 5v reference circuit). And a bias voltage is something that is hidden behind a normal operating circuit and you won't see it unless the circuit is unplugged or there is an open (in most cases).
This is a great question!
So will a ground side switched circuit have 12v+ on both sides of the solenoid until the control module toggles the signal wire to ground?
Yes, but don't call it a signal, that is a term applied to input circuits. I know I'm picking on a word and it's no big deal, but it is important when learning these concepts to use the correct terminology to prevent confusion when troubleshooting. Make sense? We would simply call this a control wire for an output (which is what a solenoid is, an ouput)
ok i see it is just the way that circuit works by it have the proper voltage plugged in told you that is a bias voltage I just didn't understand the same voltage on both wires but one is a control wire and has bias on it for computer
Could this apply also to diesel tractors a 4-cylinder backhoe John Deere
Yes, absolutely!
This power ground side identification business and your book. I have been reading it and find myself confused. My Golf 2.0fsi has high emissions and fails the government tests. OK so I test egr solenoid pins 1 and 5 with connector UNPLUGGED. Both show 12v and I asked you once about this. You’d mentioned one must be bias voltage. So I connected a test light to battery ground and touched both one at a time. Yep the test light lit when I touched both. The flow charts say pin 1 is battery ground and 5 positive though. So I run leads from battery to egr and the thing clicks. I look with inspection camera and the valve does not open though. So I use scan tool and action it with obviously connector reconned and the valve opens. So how come it does not open when my wires were same thickness as the wires in loom? How come the two wires show 12v and will light a test light when connector unplugged?
what kind of test light? bet it was an LED type, you need an incandescent light
Nope not an LED for sure. Incandescent from laser tools. Since that I have also found the ECM has a pin broken and others around with green mould or something on them. The broken pin is for12v input from main relay. Guess this is the reason engine computer not operating properly. Did also discover that with the cylinder 2 and 3 misfire I could make it go away for 4 days by removing and recomnecting the ground wire to the electric power steering rack. VW had issued recalls on 66,500 cars because ABS/ESP unit looses ground connection. Fix supposed to be either software update or new ABS module.
hi paul if got test light 6v to 12v can i use it ok ok.or i ned buy 6 /12/24 v thnx
+KURDISTAN uk just a 12v test light is fine. 24 if your working on 24 volt systems
ok thanks
I use my verus to do the bidirectional but nothing
I erase the code and it comes back on in matter of 5 seconds
Hey, Paul. Could you energize a ac clutch coil that way?
Yes, by jumping thr load side of the relay, which is what the uActivate tool does that I think I was using
@@ScannerDanner In this video, you did not use the Uactivate; you used the voltmeter as a jumper wire to energize the solenoid.
@@perez7667 then I would have switched the DMM leads to amperage, not voltage. I've done this many times. An ammeter is simply a jumper wire with a gauge on it lol
Is there any way to test driver without scanner tool?? Great video by the way.
+Luis Valenz yes th-cam.com/video/8FnYllf5D9E/w-d-xo.html
+ScannerDanner Thanks for the response.....great videos.
what scanner are you using
Snap-on Verus
Hello. Ground side switched solenoid with 3.45V bias. But with the plugged connector, on the one side 12V on the other side 2.80V.
If it is shorted to ground then there must be 0. But it is 2.8V. Solenoid is new.
Is it the bad ECU?
Should be 12 and 12, not 12 and then bias. You have an open right at that connector or the new solenoid
@@ScannerDanner I am measuring 2.8 at the solenoid connector( backprobing as you teaching) and also on the PCM connector. It is the same with known good solenoid.
Can the short to ground be "partially"?
Or is it the PCM issue?
@Elchin206 doubtful you have a partial short to ground. Tale a test light to battery positive and touch on control wire at solenoid connector (unplugged) and see if it lights. Also measure voltage at the pcm terminal. Tell me what you read with the test light there.
@@ScannerDanner with disconnected PCM? (Section 3 page 17?)
@@ScannerDannerHi Paul. Connector disconnected, test light on battery positive-test light on. Then I disconnect the PCM - test light off.
I measure voltage on PCM pin same 2.80V
Bad PCM?
Ever experience an issue due to unplugging/reconnecting a connector with the KOEO or KOER?
As far as damage to a computer? No, never. A solenoid will have higher voltage spikes when the field collapses (when its turned off) than any connector unplugging would create
Ok, I didn't think you would do it if there was a chance of something being damaged, computer or otherwise. I only ask because one of my other books says it could "destroy some components depending on various circuit designs". Your response is appreciated!
@@alyte11 There are certain circuits where you'd want to be more cautious. Take an airbag module for example. I'm definitely not unplugging one of those with the key on.
Would you end up frying the computer if you grounded the power wire instead of the control wire?
No but you would blow the fuse. When you get into trouble is when you ground a control wire that is power side switched by the computer or power a control wire that is ground side switched by the computer
@@ScannerDanner got it thanks
After connecting the test light to battery positive and touching the t-pin on the control wire on the ground side switched how do i manually check the driver without a scanner where the light flickers on and off the same way as the bidirectional scanner? Cause I don't have a Snap on scanner. Please let me know I will greatly appreciate a response back! 🙏
There are two ways:
1) use a bidirectional scan tool to command it on
2) meet the conditions for that driver to turn on (this is no easy task on some drivers)
There is no other way. This shows why you NEED a good scan tool
@@ScannerDanner I'm trying to do option 2 on a 2003 dodge caravan SE how would i meet the conditions for that driver to turn on like what steps do I need to do so i can apply it?
@@AF1MIDS what driver?
@@ScannerDanner The driver in the purge solenoid.
@@AF1MIDS so you need to research when that purge solenoid is active. Read the description and operation of that system and that is your answer.
Again, every car is different and every output is different!
Typically a purge solenoid is active just after start up.
I have the premium subscription also then book..it worht it every cent of it...i have payed trainning its nothing compare to this.. highly recommend. .haha just laughed cuz my trainner sayed the only good thing about the test light it u can stab peolpe with it!!
Can someone please guide me
Excellent! Thanks
You lose me sometimes you go a little to fast and a little to much info. I'm always worried about computer drivers taking a hit. My mind is blown right now🤯 I take it what I can.
I have a ton of classes on this subject! Spend some time here on YT in my chapter 3 playlist. Then when you're ready to up your game, come join my online classes on my website and follow this same chapter! www.scannerdanner.com/join-scannerdanner-premium.html
Hope to see you there. I recognize a hungry student when I see one.
why these thumbs down ,i m requesting those who thumbs down can raise a question instead of a thumbs down so we all can learn
+shahab alam zeb just haters man
That is one puny 12v car battery being dragged down by a small 3 or 5 watt incandescent light bulb.
just realized, it means eric the car guy
So you can say the solenoid works with 7 Volts because the 5 Volts bias on the groundsite....😉
I wish you had a low speed. I can't think that fast but I know there is plenty to learn here from you. I turned into a parts changer again today. Like you recommended, I am going to focus on chapter 3 of your channel videos. I have to go slow until I feel in the know. I can't help feeling like an insecure dummy sometimes especially when you get pushing buttons on your scanner. I don't have a scanner so I get confused each time you bring up a scope readout or a graph or anything. AAAAARGH!
Man. I know you know what you are doing, but you have so many wires going to the solenoid and it’s confusing to hear you talk about many different testers at one time. Plus you can’t see it well the lighting and testing solenoid being in the car and far away from the camera. It’s too confusing.
Older video my friend I promise I've gotten a lot better filming and editing. Spend some more time in my chapter 3 playlist right here on TH-cam my friend, Thank you!
@@ScannerDannerRight now (23:35PM local time) watching section 3 videos.😉