If you're starting out, one of the quickest lessons you need to learn is that you're perceived by almost everyone you come across in the industry as the customer and not as a person with a product to sell.
it's soul destroying and it only gets worse. The Covid 19 lockdown has focused attention on streaming numbers and what and how artists get paid. There was an article in the Guardian newspaper about a month ago and I couldn't believe what I was reading. have a look yourself www.theguardian.com/music/2020/may/11/musicians-music-industry-lockdown-streaming-spotify-coronavirus. It makes me wonder why anyone would even bother.
Replace the words "play", "perform" etc with the word "work", and you see how ridiculous the industry can be. Will you pay to work? It's absolutely unheard of in any other line of work.
If you would work as a freelance "whatever", let's say inside IT. You would 100% spend some to earn some! Although, this is towards companies that are serious ofc so it's not really the same thing. But almost.
Could be nice to have a video on the kind of deals you SHOULD be looking for as a musician. Or at least like a checklist of things that COULD indicate it’s a deal worth taking.
Prepare to get musically blackpilled, and fast lol You'd better be doing it for the love of it because there is noooo money left for the actual artists.
I'm not a musician, but a artist and gamedesigner, and I can guarantee that the entertainment industry is 1 big scam.. You are either a artist in it for the art, or the person that's scamming that artist.. The worst (and widest spread) scam is the good old "GETING PAID IN EXPOSURE"
That's it. You've nailed it - and it's *everywhere* - not only entertainment. It's the "rentier economy" taken to the logical conclusion, extreme though that may be. Consider Social Media - what (or who) is the content? What can we say about the source of Value? Who generates the Value? The user. With all that "exposure" and "connection" (blah blah blah) that Facebook, Twitter, etc (I'm old, idk about the other ones) shoves down our throat as the "benefits" of Social Media, the bottom line is that without us they have nothing. No data. To borrow from Morrisey: "You are the Quarry". Good old Mozzer. Love, hate, indifferent - he's always good for a pithy one-liner.
THANK YOU for calling out pay-to-play. They continue to prey on local musicians, even post-pandemic. Here’s a HUGE tip for musicians trying to play any P2P venue: do the job of the booker/agent yourself! Have your act together, show up respectfully and support other acts at the venue you’re trying to play. If you present yourself with a genuine/good attitude most venues will be happy to connect you with their mgmt/talent booker. I’ve been in Los Angeles since 2003 and have played most of the P2P venues, for free! Please pass this along to all your musician friends - P2P should be a thing of the past. #justsayno
Zappa said "retain your own accountant and be prepared to demand an audit of your record companys' books at a moment's notice". Wise man. Good advice. Apply it to everyone :-)
I'm a photographer. A band contacted me asking me to video a few shows, give them the raw footage, and I could get "credit" but no money and no materiel. Imagine the irony in that.
It's hard to say, if none has any money, and its just a friend collar, and their doing it to market for money, sometimes their are no contracts, but a pre contract of like, actual greeted revenue of based on work. So am suit video of a music thing shouldn't receive as much as perhaps the music and composition of the other 11 songs in an album. So, one could do like a revenue royalty meaning that the video is tied to the musician and you get x money from that revenue of that album, and subsequent future. its not being greedy, but there is a point of how much is too much and how much his too little. SO what we have is conflict created by money. Then there is the new artist with nothing and have nothing to offer other then their music. To perhaps a related family member with photography experience etc. If the means to not to get rich but in fairness, then a simple contract based on a percent of sales and a locking germination, meaning that the % of revenue is locked at 150k. From sales. But then again the artist is getting revenues, we ocudl go into the radio scams, it owed seem hollywood is the lure to trap, kill artist, i which controls the money supply and drains their spirit... and then sends them away... Life is about money... I mean most of how i think is.. if I have a home, a family... I would just create freely with other artist exploring this life was like that here, where simple works and logic made society simple and most artist are pretty intelligent, like they can be ordered about in a composition of music pretty easily, meaning, if your local dam needs labour, a logical society does it because its part of the comment and energy,y its the fluff of money that causes the problem, not the reality of works. So before the liar and the roaring lion on the earth, my community here, used to have cake walks na life was natural and simple, and enjoyable. I don't like the violence that has enter,d the clan wars, the undermining and the criminal gangs the garbage... yet the accuse and then laugh and these idiots don't know anything but are given great power by state and what not, its basically the whole earth is turning into a NORth korean state.
It's kind of a cycle, beginner musicians don't get paid, so they can't pay anyone. Since they're beginners they don't realize that isn't how things are supposed to work.
Warning to bands: My band was contacted by a legit manager. After a few weeks and about 4 hours accumulated on the phone talking about our plans, he hit us with a "budget" that he needs in order to actually do any of the things he got us excited about. I told him we're not about to pay you $1,500 dollars without seeing ANYTHING yet on your part. Do you still want to work with us? And that was that. Industry people are contacting bands and pumping them up with promises, then hitting them with a bill before any work. Beware.
Even if a song has great potential, It takes roughly $1.2 to $1.5 million per song to go through the right promoters and corporate syndications and affiliations for the proper type of airplay. There are some exceptions but few. This is why most newer music sucks!
I was once in a Pay to play contest called Emergenza. We ended up not selling a single ticket because we eventually didn't want to support it. The Emergenza manager then went crazy on us telling us that we were not ment to be doing music and should instead become dentists etc. Pretty hilarious actually. The scammer got mad because 5 little teenagers scammed him
Brilliant! x'D We took part in that too. At least it was a fun experience and we got some new friends even though it was pretty clear from the get go that it's a scam. Well, been there, done that, at least now we know to stay clear and warn others not to participate.
Great video but i´m suprised that you didnt talk about the biggest scam that is as old as the music industry itself and that is signing with most major labels, my friends band got fucked over hard by one. At first they gave them a big advance (which is basicly a loan) than they took them to expensive dinners, overpriced recording studios and mixing/mastering enginers they even flew them to U.S to work on a song with a producer who did something with Rolling Stones, and also some really dumb shit like making music videos super expensive by getting a famous actor in there along with dancers and even a fkn camel for some reason. And then, when the band started making money, they started recouping all of those costs from the bands income and even though they had a number 1 hit on multiple radios in my country and toured extensively, they recieved only tiny fraction of money their music was making. Basicly they will bait you into sense that you "made it", then they have you work with people that labels know for inflated sums and lastly they will always set a absurdly high expectations on your music so even if you have milions of streams you anin´t getting shit beacuse the label expected hundred milion streams
This is such a helpful video, and I'm not a musician. There needs to be more stuff like this from creative professionals because so many young up and comers get screwed by whatever industries equal to these scams. I do freelance video/photo aside from the channel. I am sure others can chime in on the bananas scams. Obviously, the ones that come to mind are "I'll pay you in exposure," The job offers where they want someone who can do an entire production and at minimum wage entry-level (I mean not a scam but come on when does a PA need to be a master at the whole adobe suite, know how to code and bring their own pro-level gear). How about the scam film festival? Really similar to what I see here. Just like a band paying to play, you'd have to cover the screening cost of your movie you submitted. as wells as insane entry fees
It's a rent-seeking scam. IMHO, the worst offenders are venues that have some residual clout from a dead scene --think of the late CBGB (which was too proud to say it, but were pay-to-play by the late 1990's) in NYC or Whisky A Go-Go in LA (which is openly pay-to-play). At some point, those venues had clout they no longer had to work for. People who never saw any of the acts that made them famous buy the shirts for the endowment effect --you buy a CBGB t-shirt because Slash wore one. When you're in that situation, why even bother booking or promoting? People will come to you to try to get "exposure." The real problem is that at some point, being so hungry for exposure is actually seen as a weakness by both your peers and by the music industry. You're left holding the bag.
Nightclubs did this with may DJ's in the 80's and 90's and the first half of 2000's. Then when you did bring a massive crowd, what did the nightclub do, in return? they got their inhouse promoters to hire big name DJ's and stole your crowd, and basically tell you to fuck off. meanwhile you did all the footwork to build the crowd for that nightclub, and now you have nothing while a named DJ took your place.
Back in 2014 the NFL tried charging performers to play at half-time. www.theverge.com/2014/8/19/6045957/nfl-wants-artists-pay-to-play-at-super-bowl-halftime-show
here's my example of the "pay for exposure scam"...in a band i was in, i was told that in order to play at a summer market i would need to supply the band's electricity, bandstand, and cover from the heat, and that we also wouldn't get paid to play the event...i was told that, "there would be over 10,000 people attending the market during it's weekend run, so the exposure would be huge for us", to which i replied, "not for the 2 hours we're going to be playing..."...my advice- never for play for free (unless it's a charity event, etc where you "want" to give your time...)...
Big up for calling out SXSW for this! I swear to god there are more intermediaries in the music industry than anywhere else. granted some people deserve their piece for the *incredible* work they do, but the majority are straight up snakes.
music distribution is such bullshit, but it's necessary because how else will you get people to listen to your music if you don't get your music on spotify or apple music
I am not surprised in the least at this comment has so many thumbs up. Gone are the days that four guys in a band pay their dues in clubs,& dive bars,& waiting to hopefully get signed to a major label, be given a million dollars upfront to go record your album. Then a massive global tour, where you are selling out 75,000 seat auditoriums every single night for a year-and-a-half straight.I feel bad that younger people are not going to experience that kind of stuff. Our minds and eyeballs are just saturated with mind-blowing,stunning talent in musicians.There are so many more dogs in the pack now that it's almost impossible to get ahead. Sure you can get a TH-cam channel that successful or whatever. You can even tour around in the back of a van, but the days of driving around America with 7 18 wheelers, not including the tour bus that the band is on? Those days are gone. There are some dinosaurs that are still holding on, but after they're all gone.... Actual musicians and people that are ridiculously talented, can't even get a record deal anymore because there's so many people. These dinosaurs make money off their name. And more power to them. Iron Maiden The Rolling stones Clapton... There's a bunch of people still doing it. But eventually all these people are going to die. And we're going to be left with a bunch of cookie cutter bullshit.
@@singingice tour and just build a following that will consistently support you. Plus performing at online open Mics got me more attention. I performed at an online open mic in New York from my recording studio and got a hundred more followers after I gave them my IG
Unless you're a musician of some stature, the entire music scene in Japan is built on the pay to play model. But rather than having a promoter organize the event, usually the band will work directly with the venue for an event. The band stuff here is particularly insidious, since unless your band is extremely popular, the amount of tickets you're meant to sell by decree of the venue is almost a guarantee at the end of the night that YOUR band is going to be paying the venue.
I know a few Japanese metal acts. They have told me horror stories about organized crime involvement in this scene. Such that I will not name any names for fear of retribution on them!
Absolutely. I remember being shocked to find out how things worked over there when I started having an interest in japanese music and searched around to find out what the hell an oneman was. Things might have been getting steadily worse in recent years, considering the number of established, successful japanese artists (mainly Visual Kei musicians) that are now starting TH-cam channels.
The exploitation of musical ambition is crazy and so weirdly normal and accepted. I got so much BS for years for just not going along with the BS. I remember competing in a music contest when we started out, paid a fee to participate and arrived and realized: I just paid to perform in a packed venue where they made bags of money on ticket sales and they didn’t need to pay the entertainment, noooo, the entertainment paid them to perform. Oh and then they asked if we wanted to be on the compilation cd. So they wanted our music, to sell on a cd, and I had to pay a fee again to get on it. Yeah, i learned so much from that. Didn’t pay the cd fee and when I asked how the sales revenue would be split they were like, no that’s to cover the costs of manufacturing and mastering the cd 😂 oh and it’s a well known yearly music contest out here, been around for decades....
To be fair if I was a club owner I would charge musicians a fee to insure that they actually show up on time. Not to mention to pay the people who do the the audio setup and light. I would still pay the band members their share though, but that's not the reality now is it.
My band was once approached by a company that made these compilation albums that featured songs from various artists. We were really excited, this was the first kind of "deal" anyone wanted to make with us. However, they told us that the way we would make money was that we had to place a minimum order of 500 of the CDs to sell on our own. As soon as they told us that we ran away as fast as we could.
I didn't know about ANY of this stuff. I had heard of Taxi and even checked out their site, but just left because it sounded so complicated. This is awesome. Ben, give us the whole top 10. I'll share links to all of them.
I know tons of musicians who have had nightmare problems with TAXI company. By the time you get a single gig, its not fucking worth it, because you have paid into the site with so many fucking fee's that when you do get a gig and find out the pay & type of gig, all you can think about is fucking killing someone for taking all your time and money & giving you shitty jobs if you ever get one. Its best for people to go on bandcamp and sell their music through that, youll earn more money on that, than you ever will on TAXI website company. TAXI website are like sharks, they keep their pray around long enough, just to eat their soul away until there is nothing left.
@@TwstedTV Speaking of that, if Benn decides to make more videos and this topic (and I hope he does!) it would be good to highlight similar services that AREN'T exploitative: that are up-front about what they offer, don't demand exclusivity etc.
A part 2 would be dope, always been a fan of your industry rants (from the net neutrality video to the soundtrack to a vacant life post) so more are welcome Would love to hear a fleshed out retrospective of the 2007 post-sublight drama one day lol
A few years back, I took a Music Business Course from a Grammy winner who is also a member of the Recording Academy. She wrote about 72 songs for Heart. At the end of the class, I decided that I would never sign a contract with any label:)) It seems that everyone gets paid except for the artist.
Pay for play didn't start in the 90s. The club called "On Broadway" in San Francisco was doing this with metal shows in 1985, maybe earlier. I moved there in 85 and they were doing it. Other clubs in the Bay Area were doing it then, too. It worked exactly as you described except was pre-email.
@@InYourDreams-Andia The musicians' union is the enemy of innovation. I remember when the American Federation of Musicians (the main union) forbid the use of synthesizers. They also tried it with samplers and drum machines. F that. Musicians' unions are a vestigial organ with almost no use unless you do something like play in the SNL band or an orchestra. Even then they're the enemy of composers. The cost of working with a union orchestra or even band is what drove Zappa firmly into being the only musician on an album, using early samplers. It's also why ELP stopped touring with an orchestra. I talked to some members of the ELP touring orchestra in Chautauqua NY when they had a day off from playing in Buffalo, they were crestfallen they were being laid off. ELP couldn't afford them anymore. Some of them were willing to work for far less than union pay because it was the coolest gig of a lifetime, and union wouldn't allow it.
Not much has changed in the music industry for musicians. If you wish to be famous enough for a full time job as a musician, then the industry remains the same. 1) True incredible talent can't be stopped except by the musician themselves. 2) Talent will be quickly recognized locally. 3) Build up your local fans and then continue to expand. 4) True talent will be sought after if there is a venue that caters to your genre; so locally there must be opportunity, if not, move. 4) Once you are recognized regionally by your state ( over 100,000 fans) , then the social media becomes powerful enough to make a difference. Make sure your live TH-cam recordings are professional, don't record live music on your phone! 5) Now with a full schedule of gigs, and a fan base, you may seek representation and begin touring as a warm up band for big names....OR.... contract into a small touring group small 500 seat venues (college type venues) where you are the only performer. The ticket buyer usually buy a season ticket to these small venues, does not know who you are, but after the concert (presentation), if they like you - you will build a national fan base. BAM, NOW YOU ARE A PROFESSIONAL. If popularity continues bigger representation, marketing, and headline large venues will come your way. True talent with originality and showmanship can not be stopped, if you are a talented musician without the illusion of bigger than life, and nothing original...well there is a limit to how many copycats the industry will endure.
Interesting Yin ("What should you do?") to the Yang ("What to avoid?") of this video. At the end of the day the music business is a weird ecosystem with a lot of gullible prey animals and ruthless predators. Even the gear, DAW and plugin industry is a very dangerous seductress, utilizing pretty much the 'pay for fame' spiel that Benn just highlighted.
@@slawaschwed, you're right, I see a lot of hope in this thread. If this kids knew how many people make it in the music business compared to the people what will never make it they wouldn't even be thinking about this crap and most of them would get into a different line of business. Now, if you don't care about money and you breathe music, good for you but don't think that success is talent and hard work's best friend.
Not even a musician, but I'll drop a dime on two pay to play scammers in NYC: CBGB and Continental bar from 1990's onward. It's why I have zero nostalgia for those places after they closed; they were awful and predatory
@@JoshuaDb_The_Witness I'm sure it was YMMV, and there was an actual booker who dealt with people who knew what they were doing. But a whole scene of (admittedly dumb and needy) kids from the outer boroughs that I hung out with got clipped playing both. Both venues had a lot of cultural cachet and could get away with it.
when i played Bluenote NYC, the consulate of my country paid for our trip from europe etc, paid the venue (for some imaginary promotion expenses). Bluenote took all the ticket sales and then also wanted % on our CD sales... needless to say i took my CDs back with me.
Its crazy how many more scams there are out there haha, but this is a great resource for some pretty scummy ones. I made a video a couple months ago about shady Spotify playlist curators and 'pitching companies', and that was its own little rabbit hole. Even if some of them aren't necessarily scams, the way they operate can be very shady behind the scenes. Basically someone decides they're going to make a network with their own playlists, their friends playlists, and find other people with playlists online. Then they charge an artist to get on playlists with X numbers of followers, lets say $149 for 100k followers worth of playlists for example. Then to meet their target they either just pop your song on a bunch of somewhat close playlists that may or may not get good traffic, and if they struggle with their own playlists they reach out to their network and tell those people if they place it they get $5-$15 depending on the size of their playlist. Many services say that they just 'pitch' to these places, and people are payed to listen to the track and decide on placing it, but its all behind closed doors so likely they're just straight up sharing the cash to get on the playlists. Not saying all of these companies are shady by any means. But in 2019 I tested out a handful of them with very mixed results, even between repeat campaigns. Looking up the playlists on SpotOnTrack would often show that they would gain thousands of followers in a single day randomly, and then only grow very slowly in between those spikes. Then combining that knowledge with seeing almost no streams result from the playlist add, you can deduce that they're just growing their playlist with bots and then charging artists to get on the playlist. While the right playlist through these companies can totally make a song blow up on Spotify, even if they have totally legit playlists the placement often won't be fitting enough to actually give the song good performance. After all, they HAVE to get your song on X amount of follower playlists, so it's almost guaranteed that some of those placements will be crap. Anyways, thats my small rant haha. Be careful who you hire for music marketing, look up reviews and do small test promotions before you invest anything substantial.
As a USER of these services, I ask you to not buy playlist placement, ever! You're paying for spam. There is NO possible world in which this turns into a healthy business to the benefit of listeners and musicians who actually have something good.
I remember pay to play getting gigs around Glasgow in the early 2000s. Literally every single venue was at it. I felt like I was the only one that thought it was bullshit - everyone else was just like 'thats the way it is'. The most we ever saw in the way of 'payment' was a case of beer between us.
Thanks for putting this out there. A lot of musicians are looking for ways to get our stuff out there to the point where our aspirations can easily overwhelm our BS detectors. A part 2 on this would be awesome!
One scam I've seen pop up a lot recently, is someone claiming to be from def jam, and that you can perform in an American idol style contest to be on BET. They ask for a $1200 artist fee (how much was the stimulus check again?)
So glad I clicked on this! I have always questioned Music X-Ray. It seems so great at first. I even got some positive responses from industry "professionals." 100's of dollars and 100's of submissions later I'm thinking "god, is my band really so bad that nobody has picked us for anything?" Signed, Scammed.
"battle of the bands" is also a scam. In addition of tricking bands to sell their own tickets to play for free, they also use the contest format as an excuse to book an excessive amount of bands in one evening - each bringing in their family & friends to vote.
Yep. I was looking through the comments to see if would raise battle of the bands. I have never been caught and never felt the urge to stand around all day for zilch. Who cares which is the best band. The one with the largest families.
I'm beyond grateful for finding your channel Sir. I've ran into many brick walls as a music producer. I've wasted so much time, energy and money falling prey to these scams. Smh. Now that I know better, I can do better. Thank you!!!
I've got enough of the entire music "industry" as such. I'm just gonna do it the "old-fashioned" way if you will. I'm gonna work extremely hard at my normal job to earn the money that I need to release my own songs and I'm just gonna promote it myself by social media. If it's really good, it'll get known somehow and people will share it. If it isn't, too bad, next try for my songs. In this day and age it's a ridiculous idea to spend money on music promotion if there's so many ways to learn it yourself or do it yourself.
Build your brand G, Market your content creatively by trying different tactics. Don't just post your music obviously, I'm going to be doing the same thing. About to have my degree in marketing in 1.5 years and I'm going to work to fuel my passion (music) good luck brother!
SOcial media can be extremely time-consuming. I'm thinking about hiring a marketing manager if I ever start making real money off of music. Perhaps it's time to head to DC and start playing in the street.
Yep, same here. I'm making my songs, how I want, when I want, however I want to. Managing myself, and really don't care how big or small I become. It's actually quite satisfying to simply do what you want to do, without all the pressure, of trying to fit some mould, or 'type'.
promoting yourself online is "the old-fashioned way"??? back to those lost times when musicians and dinosaurs had MySpace pages? Good for you and good luck, but you should realize that at most "normal jobs", your boss and your bosses boss is going to try to rip you off and take advantage of your hard work, just like music scammers. In fact I'm a bit suspicious you ARE one of these guys! How can you really think that "hard work" will let you buy yourself a music career? Labor isn't valued anymore. It will likely be spit back in your face, just like your art.
#2 Lazy Publisher got me a few years ago. The red flags kept coming up and I kept digging only to find they had changed names 3 times over the last 10 years because they constantly ruin their own name. I got burned and I got obsessed with digging up dirt. I have so much documented information about how these guys operated. If you ever want to hear about it, let me know.
Hi, Benn. This is extremely useful information for anyone trying to get their music out there. The fact that you speak from experience means a great deal to emerging artists, helps them move forward via facts. Your content is well chosen, thoroughly researched, and presented with style and humour. Thanks for all you do -- Simon in Canada.
I'd subscribed to a "pay-to-pitch" service for a bit, believing it to be legit at the outset. Was told how they had "dozens of experienced industry professionals" basically just salivating to plug my tunes for licensing. And yet it was always the same half dozen or so that replied to my submissions with pithy comments about how the submission didn't somehow "fit" the category at hand or was otherwise defective. The buggers never had the fracking spine to identify themselves by any designation other than a number -- like those "inspected by no. 5" slips of paper you find in a package of underwear. The final straw came when a submission called for a song "recorded in the '70s" and I sent a tune cut in November 1978. The analog studio master, which I'd recorded directly to my 15-IPS 2-track mastering deck at the time (think "Hotel California" level quality equipment), was rejected on the grounds of the "sonic attributes" not being from the '70s. I'd had the analog master digitized at Tape Vault Studio, part of the Hyde Street Studios complex in San Francisco (FKA "Wally Heider's"). Their "assessment" was actually a testament to the engineer's excellent skills per digitizing and remastering the original analog studio-grade recording -- "sonic attributes" indeed. So much for the "dozens of experienced industry professionals" touted in their marketing plugs. (Scope "No-Nonsense Woman" from OLD HIPPIES ANONYMOUS for audiophile specifics.) That I didn't resubscribe to their service is a given.
The unfortunately thing is a lot of Indie music is "Pay-for-Play", including Interviews, reviews, playlists, etc. I've seen costs rage from $80 to $400
Scamming a musician can be a very dangerous occupation. I was trained how to deal with a club owner who refuses to pay, and a LOT of the cats from the old days have similar stories. Hint - for the cost of one hour of a lawyer, you can get 4 street weapons OR two guys to help "remodel." Email scams are different, but only in that you have to find the perp. (True story - in 1968 I moved from the East Coast to San Francisco and told NOBODY where I was, as I didn't have an address yet, just a room in a transient hotel on Sutter. Third day, I got a phone call to my room from a musician who wanted me to play in his Vegas band, as his organist was leaving. How in HELL did he find me when *_I_* didn't know where I was? He said something in italian...) BTW, I declined the offer and found a room...
I meet a guy like the first one in treatment, he "Owned a warehouse". dude was like 24, he talked all this stuff like he was a music event promoter, he also was a Heroin addict.
Reminds me of some friends of friends who got involved with some guy making a horror movie, offered them roles and also got them hooked on cocaine, which he just happened to deal. Yeah we don't hang out with them anymore...
An often misquoted statement from Hunter S Thompson ... "“The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.” Hunter S Thompson never actually said this about the music business, it was about the newspaper business that he used to work in ... but it does indeed apply to the music business.
Yep. Try Hard Music Group. I got ripped back in the mid 2000s on Myspace. I was too young to know better. Forget the BBB or other clients' accounts to verify how "legit" they were. Non-refundable, nothing returned, NEVER again. The devil is truly in the details. Great video!!!
It was WORSE.. In 1968, I was in a "1 hit-wonder-band!" But, didn't know it (till) I came home from Vietnam, & heard my band on the radio! Song is Still on the 60-70 playlists, & the Band.("original, replacement members") are still listed on Wikipedia (but,) my name only says; "Left Band in 1968!" PS.. Only the Original Manager made a fucking PENNY 🖕
@@enlightenedwarrior7119 I think he's purposely leaving that out. There are two issues: the manager could sue for defamation, or the opposite, the poster may not want to "outsource revenge" on the manager. Forgive and forget, but warn future musicians of the kind of scam done here. It may not seem like a problem for younger folks who are used to online confessionals, but they're just not considering all the consequences.
I have been(well, my bands) subject to the first scam with other flavours: 1) straight pay-to-play, venues or producers that actually charge for playing (for a six pack if you're lucky). 2) Thay pay you a % of the tickets (70% tipically), but after costs, that they never told you about: they have the pay the technicians, the cleaning people, PROs, taxes, promotion. Since they phisically have the tickets' money, all you can do is take whatever is left. And if they have some tickets threshold, more often than not they don't pay you at all.
And, did your Manager do anything about all of the people coming in the back entrance, without paying a dime for a ticket, that are "friends" of the club manager or owner? That's one of the oldest and easiest scams.
@@BennJordan Man, is there anything you can't do? Watching your videos at this point is this weird mixture of really liking the content, but also feeling so inadequate seeing the amount of skills you have hahaha Keep up the great content!
@@BennJordan a video where you analyse how you got good at so many things would be cool. I know it sounds a bit silly but I would really love to hear some advice for people who struggle to make progress in different disciplines because they keep jumping back and forth.
@@dorsia6938 well, i can suggest 4 reasons. Benn is lefty. It means, that his mind works differently. Many lefties are genius by nature. Second one - he is generally smart and curious. Third one - he can stay focused on his goals. Fourth one - he has that sense of humor and level or irony and sarcasm (due to reason 2) that we all love.
okay. I just found your channel like an hour ago. I had just got done watching your How Influencers Break The Law video and then started watching this one. and the poetic irony of what you said about curiosity stream and to have it be on this video about scams is just perfect. im not calling your experience with them a scam but you can see the beauty of the moment i just experienced
I went to Musicians Institute for music business in 2003 and the leader of the business program was MADLY in love with Taxi. It was always a bit cultish with no real results backing anything.
Thank you my friend. My sons trying to build his name and you mentioned more then 3 points that he has fallen for. Very informative and well worth 17:56 . Thumbs up! Keep up the great work.
I always get the "hey what happened to your MySpace, want to feature one of your tracks on a compilation" ha ha.. my what? MySpace? Yeah I had a few songs on there about 20 years ago. Ain't nothing that anyone would want though. Same message.. different names. So funny.
I've been saying this about these kinds of "services" for almost ten years now. People have called me stupid and crazy for not taking part. Those same people are still where they started and I am making my own way up the food chain on my own terms, without losing a penny to these scammers.
great essay! Your number three scam there totally reminded me about a you-tube video I saw on gurus selling courses and the 'tricks' they use to get people to pay and keep them paying.
A lot of these scams work because they appeal to the musician’s ego that makes them think they are definitely “rock star” material. I think it’s important to keep yourself grounded in reality and understand how good you are and how much you need to improve - the success will naturally follow good music. I know I have a lot to improve anyway...
A lot of these scams work because they appeal to the struggling nature of an artist and the desire to actually not struggle (financially) with your passion... giving them false hope because predation is a core feature of humanity, not a bug. Musicians work hard and get taken advantage of. Perhaps many have egos. But so do most doctors and lawyers. How many of them are GIVEN those egos by the people who seek them out? Yeah... some people just have egos. Doesn't mean they deserve to be taken advantage of. Success doesn't just "naturally" follow in the music industry. It's mostly fake and driven by corporate greed. It's quite often a popularity contest and/or a lottery of being in the right place at the right time. Many GREAT musicians are never even discovered. Many are and are taken for everything they have. No, it's not just the case that you work hard and you'll become a success... not in entertainment.
“Band With A Mission”. Come to Nashville and do a showcase in front of big name industry folks. I did this when I was a kid. Learned my lesson. We nicknamed it “Scam With A Mission”
I have been subject to each of these three scams. Taxi is indeed the closest one, but I think you're ultimately right. The listings are bizarrely similar (many many many people are looking for a record deal for the 'next act' - again and again and again). But I did get one of my songs in a movie through it. Which was a thrill. Granted, it was a small indie movie that didn't pay enough $$ to make up for the annual fee. But it was a thrill to see my song in a pivotal scene of a movie full of recognizable actors on streaming platforms etc. The first two scams, the 'pay to promote' and the guy offering you 'hey a record deal!' were more easily spotted and thankfully I dodged those bullets. But yes, all three. I think you're right. And for us apparently gullible fools, plz yes make a part 2.
I guess some venues are so "prestigious" that they can get away with that sort of thing. No way in hell any I've been involved in would get away with it.
I got a day job , took all my music offline. I can tell 'promoters' where to go now if they dont like my terms. I will also help out other musicians wherever I can and tip them off .
The whole music industry is a scam. Devote all of your time to it, spend a fortune on gear, make no money (even if you do get signed). I think it's best as an expensive hobby. The people making money are those catering to musicians ie. Making and Retailing Gear / Software / Sample / Patches and Tutorials. Then there's the online music subscription services and retailers, venues, promoters and record labels. The actual creator of the music of like their sub minimum wage employee.
There is money to be made, but most of the time it comes from a diverse pool of income sources. I don't do music full time but I do make a decent amount from it when you combine music streaming money, sample pack sales, TH-cam adsense, and several other ways I monetize my work. Yes a lot of this is coming from stuff catering to musicians (sample packs, tutorials), but theirs nothing wrong with that. You can't really be JUST a music artist anymore and expect to make a good living. A lot of the artists I know who do JUST music to music consumers as a full time gig are selling merch, doing shows, selling sync / royalty free music and running social media pages / blogs with their own monetization methods. That path is a bit harder than also having products for music creators, but plenty of people are making it work.
@@AndrewSouthworth Mate you're bang on. This is exactly it. To make a living of just writing music and sending of a song is, unfortunately, a dream in the current day. All of the things you mentioned above are exactly what you need to do to make some money from music related thing. Gonna check out your channel now ;)
Yeah. Especially for the digital stuff - I can say that as a software developer. Music software is obscenely overpriced, and often of terrible quality. Musicians seemingly put up with it to prove to themselves (or others) that they're "pro". Those developers want to be in the business of selling shovels to gold-diggers. With so many gold-diggers bidding up the price, often it's hard to find a shovel that's reasonably priced, even if all you want is to do some digging in your garden... It's probably that way for other things than music software, too, I just know less about it.
It is much the same for other creatives. You want to be an artist? Come to our ever expanding Art college (which may or may not be accredited as a real college). Go in debt for tens of thousands. Now spend the rest of your life hanging paintings in cafès. Want to be a writer, take my online course in how to write like the pros! It is really gross how these professions have devolved into hobbies that are preyed upon. Artists and musicians used to have a much better chance at making a living at what they do. But the cost of living has gone up so much, and original music especially has been devalued. I know many very talented people who are just putting out their own releases to a tiny worldwide fan base. Toiling in obscurity.
Unless you sell music or the performance yourself without any kind of representation, then there will always be a thief taking away from you. Look at TH-cam. You don't think TH-cam doesnt probably lowball everybody's views and subscriber count ? Even if you put your music on someone elses website that sell downloads of your music, you probably get shortchanged by 50 percent or more. Even the people that install the Carts on sites where you check out what you buy, they may too.
Yes it is, i get loads of bullshit emails saying it's your lucky day you have been selected from ReverbNation list for your area... Jango.com another bullshite site and also Tuncore.com they give you your earnings but take it off you to put your music back online..
@@InterplainMusic - Can't forget CD Baby, who'll keep publishing your music, get paid & keep the profits even after you leave them. And then act as if they did nothing wrong.
You Sir, have given me plenty of ideas on how I can, and really should be, exercising my knowledge on the non-creative sides of my music to best exploit (in a positive way) my music. You Sir, I am definitely subbing to. Amazing content right here. Much love from Durban, South Africa
Great video, thank you for exposing this. To behonest, my initial thought was, that this is just a typical TH-cam “scam me with the title”, but it turned out a real deal!
If you're starting out, one of the quickest lessons you need to learn is that you're perceived by almost everyone you come across in the industry as the customer and not as a person with a product to sell.
Please make this a recurring series. Musicians need to know about this bullshit.
unfa aye its unfa!
O kurwa it's unfa!
its unfa yay
it's soul destroying and it only gets worse. The Covid 19 lockdown has focused attention on streaming numbers and what and how artists get paid. There was an article in the Guardian newspaper about a month ago and I couldn't believe what I was reading. have a look yourself www.theguardian.com/music/2020/may/11/musicians-music-industry-lockdown-streaming-spotify-coronavirus. It makes me wonder why anyone would even bother.
Replace the words "play", "perform" etc with the word "work", and you see how ridiculous the industry can be. Will you pay to work? It's absolutely unheard of in any other line of work.
Sad to say, it isn't
If you would work as a freelance "whatever", let's say inside IT. You would 100% spend some to earn some! Although, this is towards companies that are serious ofc so it's not really the same thing. But almost.
Absolutely!
I mean my brother's in medical school and that's literally what he's doing right now
I guess the difference is that there's a guaranteed payoff if you make it through the training, no such thing in music
Could be nice to have a video on the kind of deals you SHOULD be looking for as a musician. Or at least like a checklist of things that COULD indicate it’s a deal worth taking.
Prepare to get musically blackpilled, and fast lol
You'd better be doing it for the love of it because there is noooo money left for the actual artists.
@@matturner6890 Look up an artist named Russ, there is still money in music for artists.
I'm not a musician, but a artist and gamedesigner, and I can guarantee that the entertainment industry is 1 big scam.. You are either a artist in it for the art, or the person that's scamming that artist..
The worst (and widest spread) scam is the good old "GETING PAID IN EXPOSURE"
rslash covers a LOT of those types of Reddit stories. Exposure doesn't pay the bills, bro! lmao
Jaja ! Here in Ottawa Canada are lots of that Scam !!! "GETING PAID IN EXPOSURE"
Yeah most bands / artists get that a lot while starting out
If anyone ever offers to pay you in 'exposure' tie them up and drag them out to the desert and see how much they want 'exposure' out there
That's it. You've nailed it - and it's *everywhere* - not only entertainment. It's the "rentier economy" taken to the logical conclusion, extreme though that may be.
Consider Social Media - what (or who) is the content? What can we say about the source of Value? Who generates the Value?
The user. With all that "exposure" and "connection" (blah blah blah) that Facebook, Twitter, etc (I'm old, idk about the other ones) shoves down our throat as the "benefits" of Social Media, the bottom line is that without us they have nothing. No data.
To borrow from Morrisey: "You are the Quarry".
Good old Mozzer. Love, hate, indifferent - he's always good for a pithy one-liner.
THANK YOU for calling out pay-to-play. They continue to prey on local musicians, even post-pandemic. Here’s a HUGE tip for musicians trying to play any P2P venue: do the job of the booker/agent yourself!
Have your act together, show up respectfully and support other acts at the venue you’re trying to play. If you present yourself with a genuine/good attitude most venues will be happy to connect you with their mgmt/talent booker.
I’ve been in Los Angeles since 2003 and have played most of the P2P venues, for free! Please pass this along to all your musician friends - P2P should be a thing of the past. #justsayno
Zappa said "retain your own accountant and be prepared to demand an audit of your record companys' books at a moment's notice". Wise man. Good advice. Apply it to everyone :-)
He also said "secure your own publishing".
Also, study accounting yourself if you want to become self-employed.
I'm a photographer. A band contacted me asking me to video a few shows, give them the raw footage, and I could get "credit" but no money and no materiel.
Imagine the irony in that.
TruthAndMoreTruth Welcome to the world of musicians where you get paid in ‘exposure’ lol
On Get Off My Lawn Records, we just do an even equity split with the photog, as if they were a member of the band
@QuadBlaster _ I love rslash and StoryTime. Many stories about that. If you want work done, PAY the person.
It's hard to say, if none has any money, and its just a friend collar, and their doing it to market for money, sometimes their are no contracts, but a pre contract of like, actual greeted revenue of based on work. So am suit video of a music thing shouldn't receive as much as perhaps the music and composition of the other 11 songs in an album.
So, one could do like a revenue royalty meaning that the video is tied to the musician and you get x money from that revenue of that album, and subsequent future. its not being greedy, but there is a point of how much is too much and how much his too little.
SO what we have is conflict created by money.
Then there is the new artist with nothing and have nothing to offer other then their music. To perhaps a related family member with photography experience etc. If the means to not to get rich but in fairness, then a simple contract based on a percent of sales and a locking germination, meaning that the % of revenue is locked at 150k. From sales. But then again the artist is getting revenues, we ocudl go into the radio scams, it owed seem hollywood is the lure to trap, kill artist, i which controls the money supply and drains their spirit... and then sends them away... Life is about money... I mean most of how i think is.. if I have a home, a family... I would just create freely with other artist exploring this life was like that here, where simple works and logic made society simple and most artist are pretty intelligent, like they can be ordered about in a composition of music pretty easily, meaning, if your local dam needs labour, a logical society does it because its part of the comment and energy,y its the fluff of money that causes the problem, not the reality of works. So before the liar and the roaring lion on the earth, my community here, used to have cake walks na life was natural and simple, and enjoyable. I don't like the violence that has enter,d the clan wars, the undermining and the criminal gangs the garbage... yet the accuse and then laugh and these idiots don't know anything but are given great power by state and what not, its basically the whole earth is turning into a NORth korean state.
It's kind of a cycle, beginner musicians don't get paid, so they can't pay anyone. Since they're beginners they don't realize that isn't how things are supposed to work.
Warning to bands: My band was contacted by a legit manager. After a few weeks and about 4 hours accumulated on the phone talking about our plans, he hit us with a "budget" that he needs in order to actually do any of the things he got us excited about. I told him we're not about to pay you $1,500 dollars without seeing ANYTHING yet on your part. Do you still want to work with us? And that was that. Industry people are contacting bands and pumping them up with promises, then hitting them with a bill before any work. Beware.
Even if a song has great potential, It takes roughly $1.2 to $1.5 million per song to go through the right promoters and corporate syndications and affiliations for the proper type of airplay. There are some exceptions but few. This is why most newer music sucks!
I was once in a Pay to play contest called Emergenza. We ended up not selling a single ticket because we eventually didn't want to support it. The Emergenza manager then went crazy on us telling us that we were not ment to be doing music and should instead become dentists etc. Pretty hilarious actually. The scammer got mad because 5 little teenagers scammed him
Brilliant! x'D We took part in that too. At least it was a fun experience and we got some new friends even though it was pretty clear from the get go that it's a scam. Well, been there, done that, at least now we know to stay clear and warn others not to participate.
haha, yeah Emergenza was a total scam. Ran into them back in the day.
Great video but i´m suprised that you didnt talk about the biggest scam that is as old as the music industry itself and that is signing with most major labels, my friends band got fucked over hard by one. At first they gave them a big advance (which is basicly a loan) than they took them to expensive dinners, overpriced recording studios and mixing/mastering enginers they even flew them to U.S to work on a song with a producer who did something with Rolling Stones, and also some really dumb shit like making music videos super expensive by getting a famous actor in there along with dancers and even a fkn camel for some reason. And then, when the band started making money, they started recouping all of those costs from the bands income and even though they had a number 1 hit on multiple radios in my country and toured extensively, they recieved only tiny fraction of money their music was making. Basicly they will bait you into sense that you "made it", then they have you work with people that labels know for inflated sums and lastly they will always set a absurdly high expectations on your music so even if you have milions of streams you anin´t getting shit beacuse the label expected hundred milion streams
This is such a helpful video, and I'm not a musician. There needs to be more stuff like this from creative professionals because so many young up and comers get screwed by whatever industries equal to these scams. I do freelance video/photo aside from the channel. I am sure others can chime in on the bananas scams.
Obviously, the ones that come to mind are "I'll pay you in exposure," The job offers where they want someone who can do an entire production and at minimum wage entry-level (I mean not a scam but come on when does a PA need to be a master at the whole adobe suite, know how to code and bring their own pro-level gear).
How about the scam film festival? Really similar to what I see here. Just like a band paying to play, you'd have to cover the screening cost of your movie you submitted. as wells as insane entry fees
pay to play is like doing hard labour and paying the company for letting you work there, what bullshit
Basically, an MLM. I'd rather be a slave. Slaves get room and board and don't pay a thing.
It's a rent-seeking scam. IMHO, the worst offenders are venues that have some residual clout from a dead scene --think of the late CBGB (which was too proud to say it, but were pay-to-play by the late 1990's) in NYC or Whisky A Go-Go in LA (which is openly pay-to-play).
At some point, those venues had clout they no longer had to work for. People who never saw any of the acts that made them famous buy the shirts for the endowment effect --you buy a CBGB t-shirt because Slash wore one.
When you're in that situation, why even bother booking or promoting? People will come to you to try to get "exposure."
The real problem is that at some point, being so hungry for exposure is actually seen as a weakness by both your peers and by the music industry. You're left holding the bag.
Nightclubs did this with may DJ's in the 80's and 90's and the first half of 2000's.
Then when you did bring a massive crowd, what did the nightclub do, in return? they got their inhouse promoters to hire big name DJ's and stole your crowd,
and basically tell you to fuck off. meanwhile you did all the footwork to build the crowd for that nightclub, and now you have nothing while a named DJ took your place.
Back in 2014 the NFL tried charging performers to play at half-time.
www.theverge.com/2014/8/19/6045957/nfl-wants-artists-pay-to-play-at-super-bowl-halftime-show
@@TwstedTV and it's a chance that they started paying DJ's half what they paid a top 40 band that used to be there.
here's my example of the "pay for exposure scam"...in a band i was in, i was told that in order to play at a summer market i would need to supply the band's electricity, bandstand, and cover from the heat, and that we also wouldn't get paid to play the event...i was told that,
"there would be over 10,000 people attending the market during it's weekend run, so the exposure would be huge for us", to which i replied, "not for the 2 hours we're going to be playing..."...my advice- never for play for free (unless it's a charity event, etc where you "want" to give your time...)...
if i had bigger balls, i'd agree to every "work for exposure" bullshit gig and then just sit on a stage with a sign "venue X paid us $0 to perform".
1) 0:40 pay-to-play scam
2) 5:57 the lazy publisher scam
3) 10:49 pitch for pay scam
Good looks, but this isn't really a video to skip through
Big up for calling out SXSW for this! I swear to god there are more intermediaries in the music industry than anywhere else. granted some people deserve their piece for the *incredible* work they do, but the majority are straight up snakes.
I have absolutely nothing to do with music or the music industry, but I still found this really interesting. Please do a part 2.
Lemme guess: the recording industry, the music publishing industry, and music distribution
music distribution is such bullshit, but it's necessary because how else will you get people to listen to your music if you don't get your music on spotify or apple music
I am not surprised in the least at this comment has so many thumbs up. Gone are the days that four guys in a band pay their dues in clubs,& dive bars,& waiting to hopefully get signed to a major label, be given a million dollars upfront to go record your album. Then a massive global tour, where you are selling out 75,000 seat auditoriums every single night for a year-and-a-half straight.I feel bad that younger people are not going to experience that kind of stuff. Our minds and eyeballs are just saturated with mind-blowing,stunning talent in musicians.There are so many more dogs in the pack now that it's almost impossible to get ahead. Sure you can get a TH-cam channel that successful or whatever. You can even tour around in the back of a van, but the days of driving around America with 7 18 wheelers, not including the tour bus that the band is on? Those days are gone. There are some dinosaurs that are still holding on, but after they're all gone.... Actual musicians and people that are ridiculously talented, can't even get a record deal anymore because there's so many people. These dinosaurs make money off their name. And more power to them. Iron Maiden The Rolling stones Clapton... There's a bunch of people still doing it. But eventually all these people are going to die. And we're going to be left with a bunch of cookie cutter bullshit.
@@ziggylayneable p
@@singingice tour and just build a following that will consistently support you. Plus performing at online open Mics got me more attention. I performed at an online open mic in New York from my recording studio and got a hundred more followers after I gave them my IG
@@ziggylayneable you nailed it
Unless you're a musician of some stature, the entire music scene in Japan is built on the pay to play model. But rather than having a promoter organize the event, usually the band will work directly with the venue for an event. The band stuff here is particularly insidious, since unless your band is extremely popular, the amount of tickets you're meant to sell by decree of the venue is almost a guarantee at the end of the night that YOUR band is going to be paying the venue.
Sadly very true.
I know a few Japanese metal acts. They have told me horror stories about organized crime involvement in this scene. Such that I will not name any names for fear of retribution on them!
Japan is fcckd up on sooo many levels
Absolutely. I remember being shocked to find out how things worked over there when I started having an interest in japanese music and searched around to find out what the hell an oneman was. Things might have been getting steadily worse in recent years, considering the number of established, successful japanese artists (mainly Visual Kei musicians) that are now starting TH-cam channels.
I've heard the same about venues in Los Angeles!
The exploitation of musical ambition is crazy and so weirdly normal and accepted. I got so much BS for years for just not going along with the BS. I remember competing in a music contest when we started out, paid a fee to participate and arrived and realized: I just paid to perform in a packed venue where they made bags of money on ticket sales and they didn’t need to pay the entertainment, noooo, the entertainment paid them to perform. Oh and then they asked if we wanted to be on the compilation cd. So they wanted our music, to sell on a cd, and I had to pay a fee again to get on it. Yeah, i learned so much from that. Didn’t pay the cd fee and when I asked how the sales revenue would be split they were like, no that’s to cover the costs of manufacturing and mastering the cd 😂 oh and it’s a well known yearly music contest out here, been around for decades....
Sounds like Emergenza here in Montreal, Canada
Replace music contest with "Raffle". They make you think you're paying to be showcased in order to win the music business lottery.
Wow that does TOTALLY SUCK!!
To be fair if I was a club owner I would charge musicians a fee to insure that they actually show up on time. Not to mention to pay the people who do the the audio setup and light. I would still pay the band members their share though, but that's not the reality now is it.
@@Play-On7 If they did show up would you refund that deposit? Because that's what it is - a security deposit.
My band was once approached by a company that made these compilation albums that featured songs from various artists. We were really excited, this was the first kind of "deal" anyone wanted to make with us. However, they told us that the way we would make money was that we had to place a minimum order of 500 of the CDs to sell on our own. As soon as they told us that we ran away as fast as we could.
There’s a nirvana song about this! “Stay away” was originally “pay to play”
I didn't know about ANY of this stuff. I had heard of Taxi and even checked out their site, but just left because it sounded so complicated. This is awesome. Ben, give us the whole top 10. I'll share links to all of them.
I know tons of musicians who have had nightmare problems with TAXI company. By the time you get a single gig, its not fucking worth it,
because you have paid into the site with so many fucking fee's that when you do get a gig and find out the pay & type of gig, all you can think about
is fucking killing someone for taking all your time and money & giving you shitty jobs if you ever get one.
Its best for people to go on bandcamp and sell their music through that, youll earn more money on that, than you ever will on TAXI website company.
TAXI website are like sharks, they keep their pray around long enough, just to eat their soul away until there is nothing left.
@@TwstedTV Speaking of that, if Benn decides to make more videos and this topic (and I hope he does!) it would be good to highlight similar services that AREN'T exploitative: that are up-front about what they offer, don't demand exclusivity etc.
A part 2 would be dope, always been a fan of your industry rants (from the net neutrality video to the soundtrack to a vacant life post) so more are welcome
Would love to hear a fleshed out retrospective of the 2007 post-sublight drama one day lol
Part 2 would be awesome, getting these kinds of industry insights is really valuable for low level musicians.
A few years back, I took a Music Business Course from a Grammy winner who is also a member of the Recording Academy. She wrote about 72 songs for Heart. At the end of the class, I decided that I would never sign a contract with any label:)) It seems that everyone gets paid except for the artist.
Pay for play didn't start in the 90s.
The club called "On Broadway" in San Francisco was doing this with metal shows in 1985, maybe earlier. I moved there in 85 and they were doing it.
Other clubs in the Bay Area were doing it then, too.
It worked exactly as you described except was pre-email.
Hey, it's this guy! What's new in DIY music and DIY broadcasting?
OK.. So it started there.. But ended in the musicians union putting a stop to it (London, late 80s early 90s)
@@InYourDreams-Andia union rules don't apply across borders though…
@@crnkmnky true...but it started to highlight the extensive problem..
@@InYourDreams-Andia The musicians' union is the enemy of innovation. I remember when the American Federation of Musicians (the main union) forbid the use of synthesizers. They also tried it with samplers and drum machines. F that.
Musicians' unions are a vestigial organ with almost no use unless you do something like play in the SNL band or an orchestra. Even then they're the enemy of composers. The cost of working with a union orchestra or even band is what drove Zappa firmly into being the only musician on an album, using early samplers. It's also why ELP stopped touring with an orchestra.
I talked to some members of the ELP touring orchestra in Chautauqua NY when they had a day off from playing in Buffalo, they were crestfallen they were being laid off. ELP couldn't afford them anymore. Some of them were willing to work for far less than union pay because it was the coolest gig of a lifetime, and union wouldn't allow it.
Not much has changed in the music industry for musicians. If you wish to be famous enough for a full time job as a musician, then the industry remains the same. 1) True incredible talent can't be stopped except by the musician themselves. 2) Talent will be quickly recognized locally. 3) Build up your local fans and then continue to expand. 4) True talent will be sought after if there is a venue that caters to your genre; so locally there must be opportunity, if not, move. 4) Once you are recognized regionally by your state ( over 100,000 fans) , then the social media becomes powerful enough to make a difference. Make sure your live TH-cam recordings are professional, don't record live music on your phone! 5) Now with a full schedule of gigs, and a fan base, you may seek representation and begin touring as a warm up band for big names....OR.... contract into a small touring group small 500 seat venues (college type venues) where you are the only performer. The ticket buyer usually buy a season ticket to these small venues, does not know who you are, but after the concert (presentation), if they like you - you will build a national fan base. BAM, NOW YOU ARE A PROFESSIONAL. If popularity continues bigger representation, marketing, and headline large venues will come your way. True talent with originality and showmanship can not be stopped, if you are a talented musician without the illusion of bigger than life, and nothing original...well there is a limit to how many copycats the industry will endure.
Interesting Yin ("What should you do?") to the Yang ("What to avoid?") of this video. At the end of the day the music business is a weird ecosystem with a lot of gullible prey animals and ruthless predators. Even the gear, DAW and plugin industry is a very dangerous seductress, utilizing pretty much the 'pay for fame' spiel that Benn just highlighted.
that's nice dude. Cheers!
most useful comment ever.
@@slawaschwed ??????
@@slawaschwed, you're right, I see a lot of hope in this thread. If this kids knew how many people make it in the music business compared to the people what will never make it they wouldn't even be thinking about this crap and most of them would get into a different line of business. Now, if you don't care about money and you breathe music, good for you but don't think that success is talent and hard work's best friend.
Thanks for the hard work you put into your videos, you will go far!
Not even a musician, but I'll drop a dime on two pay to play scammers in NYC: CBGB and Continental bar from 1990's onward. It's why I have zero nostalgia for those places after they closed; they were awful and predatory
Daniel Taz I played CB's and the Continental several times between 03-06. Never paid to play, not once.
@@JoshuaDb_The_Witness I'm sure it was YMMV, and there was an actual booker who dealt with people who knew what they were doing. But a whole scene of (admittedly dumb and needy) kids from the outer boroughs that I hung out with got clipped playing both. Both venues had a lot of cultural cachet and could get away with it.
I played cbgbs in ‘84, no money in either direction but i bet it got lame by the 90s
@@JoshuaDb_The_Witness me too
when i played Bluenote NYC, the consulate of my country paid for our trip from europe etc, paid the venue (for some imaginary promotion expenses). Bluenote took all the ticket sales and then also wanted % on our CD sales... needless to say i took my CDs back with me.
Its crazy how many more scams there are out there haha, but this is a great resource for some pretty scummy ones.
I made a video a couple months ago about shady Spotify playlist curators and 'pitching companies', and that was its own little rabbit hole. Even if some of them aren't necessarily scams, the way they operate can be very shady behind the scenes. Basically someone decides they're going to make a network with their own playlists, their friends playlists, and find other people with playlists online. Then they charge an artist to get on playlists with X numbers of followers, lets say $149 for 100k followers worth of playlists for example.
Then to meet their target they either just pop your song on a bunch of somewhat close playlists that may or may not get good traffic, and if they struggle with their own playlists they reach out to their network and tell those people if they place it they get $5-$15 depending on the size of their playlist. Many services say that they just 'pitch' to these places, and people are payed to listen to the track and decide on placing it, but its all behind closed doors so likely they're just straight up sharing the cash to get on the playlists.
Not saying all of these companies are shady by any means. But in 2019 I tested out a handful of them with very mixed results, even between repeat campaigns. Looking up the playlists on SpotOnTrack would often show that they would gain thousands of followers in a single day randomly, and then only grow very slowly in between those spikes. Then combining that knowledge with seeing almost no streams result from the playlist add, you can deduce that they're just growing their playlist with bots and then charging artists to get on the playlist.
While the right playlist through these companies can totally make a song blow up on Spotify, even if they have totally legit playlists the placement often won't be fitting enough to actually give the song good performance. After all, they HAVE to get your song on X amount of follower playlists, so it's almost guaranteed that some of those placements will be crap.
Anyways, thats my small rant haha. Be careful who you hire for music marketing, look up reviews and do small test promotions before you invest anything substantial.
As a USER of these services, I ask you to not buy playlist placement, ever! You're paying for spam. There is NO possible world in which this turns into a healthy business to the benefit of listeners and musicians who actually have something good.
We need a part 2 to 1000. Thank you Ben
I remember pay to play getting gigs around Glasgow in the early 2000s. Literally every single venue was at it. I felt like I was the only one that thought it was bullshit - everyone else was just like 'thats the way it is'. The most we ever saw in the way of 'payment' was a case of beer between us.
Oh CRAP! That first scam is literally RAW Artists. God that is so effing messed up.
Thanks for putting this out there. A lot of musicians are looking for ways to get our stuff out there to the point where our aspirations can easily overwhelm our BS detectors. A part 2 on this would be awesome!
Issue #1 definitely applies to visual artists as anyone that's ever dealt with RAW artists can tell you.
Excellent and well argued. Just an amateur musician but, as a professional economist, I understand perfectly what you are talking about. Thanks!
One scam I've seen pop up a lot recently, is someone claiming to be from def jam, and that you can perform in an American idol style contest to be on BET. They ask for a $1200 artist fee (how much was the stimulus check again?)
Disgusting, I bet there are some poor souls who fall for it as well
A part 2 would be very helpful. This is super important information for upcoming musicians to know!
So glad I clicked on this! I have always questioned Music X-Ray. It seems so great at first. I even got some positive responses from industry "professionals." 100's of dollars and 100's of submissions later I'm thinking "god, is my band really so bad that nobody has picked us for anything?" Signed, Scammed.
Real great video and info 🙏🏼👏🏼
"battle of the bands" is also a scam. In addition of tricking bands to sell their own tickets to play for free, they also use the contest format as an excuse to book an excessive amount of bands in one evening - each bringing in their family & friends to vote.
Yep. I was looking through the comments to see if would raise battle of the bands. I have never been caught and never felt the urge to stand around all day for zilch. Who cares which is the best band. The one with the largest families.
this was painfully hilarious and also really important stuff. great work w the animations too.
I'm beyond grateful for finding your channel Sir. I've ran into many brick walls as a music producer. I've wasted so much time, energy and money falling prey to these scams. Smh. Now that I know better, I can do better. Thank you!!!
I've got enough of the entire music "industry" as such. I'm just gonna do it the "old-fashioned" way if you will. I'm gonna work extremely hard at my normal job to earn the money that I need to release my own songs and I'm just gonna promote it myself by social media. If it's really good, it'll get known somehow and people will share it. If it isn't, too bad, next try for my songs. In this day and age it's a ridiculous idea to spend money on music promotion if there's so many ways to learn it yourself or do it yourself.
Build your brand G, Market your content creatively by trying different tactics. Don't just post your music obviously, I'm going to be doing the same thing. About to have my degree in marketing in 1.5 years and I'm going to work to fuel my passion (music) good luck brother!
SOcial media can be extremely time-consuming. I'm thinking about hiring a marketing manager if I ever start making real money off of music. Perhaps it's time to head to DC and start playing in the street.
Yep, same here. I'm making my songs, how I want, when I want, however I want to. Managing myself, and really don't care how big or small I become. It's actually quite satisfying to simply do what you want to do, without all the pressure, of trying to fit some mould, or 'type'.
Traditional A&R does work, you just gotta make sure you get the money up front.
promoting yourself online is "the old-fashioned way"??? back to those lost times when musicians and dinosaurs had MySpace pages? Good for you and good luck, but you should realize that at most "normal jobs", your boss and your bosses boss is going to try to rip you off and take advantage of your hard work, just like music scammers. In fact I'm a bit suspicious you ARE one of these guys! How can you really think that "hard work" will let you buy yourself a music career? Labor isn't valued anymore. It will likely be spit back in your face, just like your art.
#2 Lazy Publisher got me a few years ago. The red flags kept coming up and I kept digging only to find they had changed names 3 times over the last 10 years because they constantly ruin their own name. I got burned and I got obsessed with digging up dirt. I have so much documented information about how these guys operated. If you ever want to hear about it, let me know.
Oh? Tell us more.
Hi, Benn. This is extremely useful information for anyone trying to get their music out there. The fact that you speak from experience means a great deal to emerging artists, helps them move forward via facts. Your content is well chosen, thoroughly researched, and presented with style and humour. Thanks for all you do -- Simon in Canada.
i love the flavor of this type of video. / personality / transparency
keep up the amazing work!
I'd subscribed to a "pay-to-pitch" service for a bit, believing it to be legit at the outset. Was told how they had "dozens of experienced industry professionals" basically just salivating to plug my tunes for licensing. And yet it was always the same half dozen or so that replied to my submissions with pithy comments about how the submission didn't somehow "fit" the category at hand or was otherwise defective. The buggers never had the fracking spine to identify themselves by any designation other than a number -- like those "inspected by no. 5" slips of paper you find in a package of underwear. The final straw came when a submission called for a song "recorded in the '70s" and I sent a tune cut in November 1978. The analog studio master, which I'd recorded directly to my 15-IPS 2-track mastering deck at the time (think "Hotel California" level quality equipment), was rejected on the grounds of the "sonic attributes" not being from the '70s. I'd had the analog master digitized at Tape Vault Studio, part of the Hyde Street Studios complex in San Francisco (FKA "Wally Heider's"). Their "assessment" was actually a testament to the engineer's excellent skills per digitizing and remastering the original analog studio-grade recording -- "sonic attributes" indeed. So much for the "dozens of experienced industry professionals" touted in their marketing plugs. (Scope "No-Nonsense Woman" from OLD HIPPIES ANONYMOUS for audiophile specifics.) That I didn't resubscribe to their service is a given.
The unfortunately thing is a lot of Indie music is "Pay-for-Play", including Interviews, reviews, playlists, etc. I've seen costs rage from $80 to $400
Scamming a musician can be a very dangerous occupation. I was trained how to deal with a club owner who refuses to pay, and a LOT of the cats from the old days have similar stories. Hint - for the cost of one hour of a lawyer, you can get 4 street weapons OR two guys to help "remodel." Email scams are different, but only in that you have to find the perp. (True story - in 1968 I moved from the East Coast to San Francisco and told NOBODY where I was, as I didn't have an address yet, just a room in a transient hotel on Sutter. Third day, I got a phone call to my room from a musician who wanted me to play in his Vegas band, as his organist was leaving. How in HELL did he find me when *_I_* didn't know where I was? He said something in italian...) BTW, I declined the offer and found a room...
Benn I just want to say thank you so much for making informative videos like this! That's it, patreon here I come!
I meet a guy like the first one in treatment, he "Owned a warehouse". dude was like 24, he talked all this stuff like he was a music event promoter, he also was a Heroin addict.
Reminds me of some friends of friends who got involved with some guy making a horror movie, offered them roles and also got them hooked on cocaine, which he just happened to deal. Yeah we don't hang out with them anymore...
An often misquoted statement from Hunter S Thompson ... "“The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.” Hunter S Thompson never actually said this about the music business, it was about the newspaper business that he used to work in ... but it does indeed apply to the music business.
Very well-covered. Thanks for taking the time to post it!
Great video. Thank you for your time in making this video. It’s really appreciated.
I watched that jingle 10 times in a row because it's nice.
I really want to see a part two, and three. Cover your whole original top 10 please!
Yep. Try Hard Music Group. I got ripped back in the mid 2000s on Myspace. I was too young to know better. Forget the BBB or other clients' accounts to verify how "legit" they were. Non-refundable, nothing returned, NEVER again. The devil is truly in the details. Great video!!!
I have learned more from this channel in two days than from 22 years talking to record labels and promoters (probably scamming me)
It was WORSE.. In 1968, I was in a "1 hit-wonder-band!" But, didn't know it (till) I came home from Vietnam, & heard my band on the radio! Song is Still on the 60-70 playlists, & the Band.("original, replacement members") are still listed on Wikipedia (but,) my name only says; "Left Band in 1968!"
PS.. Only the Original Manager made a fucking PENNY 🖕
What. Song and band ?
@@enlightenedwarrior7119 I think he's purposely leaving that out. There are two issues: the manager could sue for defamation, or the opposite, the poster may not want to "outsource revenge" on the manager. Forgive and forget, but warn future musicians of the kind of scam done here. It may not seem like a problem for younger folks who are used to online confessionals, but they're just not considering all the consequences.
I have been(well, my bands) subject to the first scam with other flavours: 1) straight pay-to-play, venues or producers that actually charge for playing (for a six pack if you're lucky). 2) Thay pay you a % of the tickets (70% tipically), but after costs, that they never told you about: they have the pay the technicians, the cleaning people, PROs, taxes, promotion. Since they phisically have the tickets' money, all you can do is take whatever is left. And if they have some tickets threshold, more often than not they don't pay you at all.
And, did your Manager do anything about all of the people coming in the back entrance, without paying a dime for a ticket, that are "friends" of the club manager or owner? That's one of the oldest and easiest scams.
Great production! Love the animations and music!
Thanks for the info Benn, I've been seeing this kind of scams for a while and was worried because no one really addressed them
Everyhing you talked about reminds me of the snakeoil that Reverbnation offers.
I never ever ever ever open reverbnation links anymore. its always depressing anyways.
Yes! In fact I had to use a blow torch to get a Reverbnation video off my fb artist page. They are a big bag of bs company
How many of you were told by reverbnation that your band is number one in your area !??!
The reason I ask is because I figured it was bullshit because every band I was in was some how number one and I figured it was bullshit.
aunt jenifer 🤣🤣🤣 so true
Was that you doing the animation in this? Really impressive
Yup. Thanks!
@@BennJordan Man, is there anything you can't do? Watching your videos at this point is this weird mixture of really liking the content, but also feeling so inadequate seeing the amount of skills you have hahaha Keep up the great content!
@@BennJordan a video where you analyse how you got good at so many things would be cool. I know it sounds a bit silly but I would really love to hear some advice for people who struggle to make progress in different disciplines because they keep jumping back and forth.
@@dorsia6938 +1
@@dorsia6938 well, i can suggest 4 reasons. Benn is lefty. It means, that his mind works differently. Many lefties are genius by nature. Second one - he is generally smart and curious. Third one - he can stay focused on his goals. Fourth one - he has that sense of humor and level or irony and sarcasm (due to reason 2) that we all love.
okay. I just found your channel like an hour ago. I had just got done watching your How Influencers Break The Law video and then started watching this one. and the poetic irony of what you said about curiosity stream and to have it be on this video about scams is just perfect. im not calling your experience with them a scam but you can see the beauty of the moment i just experienced
Top quality content!
Those animations really bring the video to life.
I went to Musicians Institute for music business in 2003 and the leader of the business program was MADLY in love with Taxi. It was always a bit cultish with no real results backing anything.
Good info, was expecting him to just talk about Craigslist or something
Thank you my friend. My sons trying to build his name and you mentioned more then 3 points that he has fallen for. Very informative and well worth 17:56 . Thumbs up! Keep up the great work.
This was a great video on a topic I don't see tackled often - thanks Benn!
I always get the "hey what happened to your MySpace, want to feature one of your tracks on a compilation"
ha ha.. my what? MySpace? Yeah I had a few songs on there about 20 years ago. Ain't nothing that anyone would want though. Same message.. different names. So funny.
I've been saying this about these kinds of "services" for almost ten years now. People have called me stupid and crazy for not taking part. Those same people are still where they started and I am making my own way up the food chain on my own terms, without losing a penny to these scammers.
Love the editing and the video overall, thanks for the knowledge and entertainment!
great essay! Your number three scam there totally reminded me about a you-tube video I saw on gurus selling courses and the 'tricks' they use to get people to pay and keep them paying.
A lot of these scams work because they appeal to the musician’s ego that makes them think they are definitely “rock star” material. I think it’s important to keep yourself grounded in reality and understand how good you are and how much you need to improve - the success will naturally follow good music.
I know I have a lot to improve anyway...
"The success will naturally follow good music". That sounds absolutely cute but is too far from being the truth.
A lot of these scams work because they appeal to the struggling nature of an artist and the desire to actually not struggle (financially) with your passion... giving them false hope because predation is a core feature of humanity, not a bug. Musicians work hard and get taken advantage of. Perhaps many have egos. But so do most doctors and lawyers. How many of them are GIVEN those egos by the people who seek them out? Yeah... some people just have egos. Doesn't mean they deserve to be taken advantage of. Success doesn't just "naturally" follow in the music industry. It's mostly fake and driven by corporate greed. It's quite often a popularity contest and/or a lottery of being in the right place at the right time. Many GREAT musicians are never even discovered. Many are and are taken for everything they have. No, it's not just the case that you work hard and you'll become a success... not in entertainment.
@@Salsuero, preach!
Actually, the P2P scam goes way back to the 80's when bands bought the tix from the club and had to sell the minimum just so as not to lose money.
this was really insightful. pls do a part 2 and 3 of this!
Great video! Even though I'm not a musician, it was incredible to hear about the landmines you guys have to avoid.
I’m so glad to be seeing this now, before I start releasing music
“Band With A Mission”. Come to Nashville and do a showcase in front of big name industry folks. I did this when I was a kid. Learned my lesson.
We nicknamed it “Scam With A Mission”
I have been subject to each of these three scams. Taxi is indeed the closest one, but I think you're ultimately right. The listings are bizarrely similar (many many many people are looking for a record deal for the 'next act' - again and again and again). But I did get one of my songs in a movie through it. Which was a thrill. Granted, it was a small indie movie that didn't pay enough $$ to make up for the annual fee. But it was a thrill to see my song in a pivotal scene of a movie full of recognizable actors on streaming platforms etc. The first two scams, the 'pay to promote' and the guy offering you 'hey a record deal!' were more easily spotted and thankfully I dodged those bullets. But yes, all three. I think you're right. And for us apparently gullible fools, plz yes make a part 2.
Just shared on our FB page. Thanks for taking the time to make this vid.
i like this guy even more now. im not a fan of exploitation.
I heard the * Whisky a Go Go * does this now. Or maybe they always have. Pay to play is so awful! NEVER do it!
always has... sell X amount of tickets, get on the stage... they used to offer you a video recording of the gig... for an extra fee of course
I guess some venues are so "prestigious" that they can get away with that sort of thing. No way in hell any I've been involved in would get away with it.
Word up, Benn! Great informative and inspirational content, as always. 🙂😎
I got a day job , took all my music offline.
I can tell 'promoters' where to go now if they dont like my terms.
I will also help out other musicians wherever I can and tip them off .
The whole music industry is a scam. Devote all of your time to it, spend a fortune on gear, make no money (even if you do get signed). I think it's best as an expensive hobby. The people making money are those catering to musicians ie. Making and Retailing Gear / Software / Sample / Patches and Tutorials. Then there's the online music subscription services and retailers, venues, promoters and record labels. The actual creator of the music of like their sub minimum wage employee.
There is money to be made, but most of the time it comes from a diverse pool of income sources. I don't do music full time but I do make a decent amount from it when you combine music streaming money, sample pack sales, TH-cam adsense, and several other ways I monetize my work. Yes a lot of this is coming from stuff catering to musicians (sample packs, tutorials), but theirs nothing wrong with that. You can't really be JUST a music artist anymore and expect to make a good living.
A lot of the artists I know who do JUST music to music consumers as a full time gig are selling merch, doing shows, selling sync / royalty free music and running social media pages / blogs with their own monetization methods. That path is a bit harder than also having products for music creators, but plenty of people are making it work.
@@AndrewSouthworth Mate you're bang on. This is exactly it. To make a living of just writing music and sending of a song is, unfortunately, a dream in the current day. All of the things you mentioned above are exactly what you need to do to make some money from music related thing. Gonna check out your channel now ;)
Yeah. Especially for the digital stuff - I can say that as a software developer. Music software is obscenely overpriced, and often of terrible quality. Musicians seemingly put up with it to prove to themselves (or others) that they're "pro". Those developers want to be in the business of selling shovels to gold-diggers.
With so many gold-diggers bidding up the price, often it's hard to find a shovel that's reasonably priced, even if all you want is to do some digging in your garden...
It's probably that way for other things than music software, too, I just know less about it.
It is much the same for other creatives. You want to be an artist? Come to our ever expanding Art college (which may or may not be accredited as a real college). Go in debt for tens of thousands. Now spend the rest of your life hanging paintings in cafès.
Want to be a writer, take my online course in how to write like the pros!
It is really gross how these professions have devolved into hobbies that are preyed upon.
Artists and musicians used to have a much better chance at making a living at what they do. But the cost of living has gone up so much, and original music especially has been devalued. I know many very talented people who are just putting out their own releases to a tiny worldwide fan base. Toiling in obscurity.
@@aMessvv Off.
i got scammed by a small indi game studio who used my track in an ad. it was a shit game but i did get sales on my bandcamp in the end lol
Great video and solid advice. And that jingle is 🔥
Thank you, for this video. Been subject to all your types of scams mentioned.
so like, what do we do?
Unless you sell music or the performance yourself without any kind of representation, then there will always be a thief taking away from you. Look at TH-cam. You don't think TH-cam doesnt probably lowball everybody's views and subscriber count ? Even if you put your music on someone elses website that sell downloads of your music, you probably get shortchanged by 50 percent or more. Even the people that install the Carts on sites where you check out what you buy, they may too.
When a promoter tells you to put posters up and sell ticket you tell him to fuck off thats HIS job.
@@DudeMannn But ... you can PAY for software that bumps up your views and subscribers overnight as compensation! Errrr ... never mind. ;-)
ReverbNation is full of these kind of shifty scams.
Yes it is, i get loads of bullshit emails saying it's your lucky day you have been selected from ReverbNation list for your area... Jango.com another bullshite site and also Tuncore.com they give you your earnings but take it off you to put your music back online..
@@InterplainMusic - Can't forget CD Baby, who'll keep publishing your music, get paid & keep the profits even after you leave them. And then act as if they did nothing wrong.
I bought into sonic bids because a fest said I had to have an EPK. Paid one year. Didn’t get the gig or any others from the site.
@@SmashinAdams Fuckers! and i was reading "useful" info on their site 2 days ago
avoid these fools at all cost hard core scam!
You Sir, have given me plenty of ideas on how I can, and really should be, exercising my knowledge on the non-creative sides of my music to best exploit (in a positive way) my music. You Sir, I am definitely subbing to. Amazing content right here. Much love from Durban, South Africa
DO more videos on this please! I really appreciate this kind of information bro! Thanks again!!!
Bro... Pay-to-play has actually been around since at least the 80s, possibly earlier.
not going to sign an exclusive contract without a non-refundable advance.
Great video, thank you for exposing this. To behonest, my initial thought was, that this is just a typical TH-cam “scam me with the title”, but it turned out a real deal!
Great video. I would love to see a part 2!