Banning Dockside just creates a world where sans blue becomes fringe/high powered vs cEDH. Imagine trying to run Jund/Mardu/Rakdos without Dockside. It eliminates so many archetypes. Really glad that Ian sees this. Cal just wants 3 hr rhystic/mystic games 😂. I continued listening and Ian made the, " these decks become fringe" argument. Spot on.
Couldn’t agree more. Dockside literally makes etali a viable deck. Dockside feels like the one card that can be so powerful that makes like you said high power decks cedh and able to sneak some wins in pretty easily. I don’t even play etali im just sorta pointing out how much dockside makes viable where as what Cal wants is for tivit to be better but it’s already default better than etali because of reliability
@@TheHorriblificDR yeah theres a clear amount of bias i felt like. Which there probably is from ian as well given ian likes creature decks but i think you can clearly win without dockside which was represented in this list of atraxa and TnT being viable top 10 decks. Also tivit 😂. If you cut dockside idk many red decks that would run red at all tbh
@@TheHorriblificDRyeah, extremly one sided opinion thinking only about his deck and not considering the format. I totally disagree with him at least Ian does not blindly hate on cards and has some good points
Ian, I was ping pong champion of Vermont in the nineties. I have the balls signed by the players in the tournament. I will trade them with you for a basic island and a signed half eaten ham sandwich.
I am a stax player here. And i like you think i have a pretty firm understanding of the format from the perspective of a stax player. Dockside is not the problem here. Null rod, ROL Ave Blind obedience solve the dockside problem. It's the fact that the decks can also cruise onto bowmasters to make a third of my deck unplayable and then chain of vapor the one piece that isn't bowmasterable for the win. That's the problem.
I just think unbans should be talked about over bans. Unban Paradox and open up the format to more fringe decks. Let us have a bio rhythm or a Prime Time to give green some love. Balance could make weird decks like a Teshar style viable or Cals Thras/Arden more of a thing.
I don't think Biorythm moves the needle at all, but I would like to see quite a few unbans to go along with the bans that I would like. That said, I agree with Ian about not splitting the format and I just don't see the RC unbanning Balance or Paradox Engine.
I think that banning Mystic Remora or Rhystic Study is probably the actual answer. Blue is the definitive best color and format actually revolves around those two cards. Blue shouldn't have the best interaction, card draw engines and wincons in my opinion
Rog/thras is something I just put together. Something I’ve noticed is that the speed of set up helps in this increase super mega turbo meta we have. However, it is still slower than RogSi. As a dawnwaker player also I feel the white missing but I will say that rog/ thras pivots to midrange against faster turbo decks MUCH BETTER. Bc I always have mana left open. I just think this deck and the pilot need to have a great understanding of how to mulligan in certain pods. You need to know “who’s the beat” if you get my drift
Over the next two months we'll also be having the last few qualifiers for the European Championship followed by the Championship in November. So I'd say in four months time not 1-2 months time.
I’d like to see Valley Floodcaller added to Atraxa lists. The card has been making waves elsewhere. Combining it with Neoform feels like potential for some spice going forward.
Rhystic study and remora is way worse for the format than dockside imo. And you see rhystic just as much as dockside. But i also enjoy explosiveness/storm lol. So my bias is there too. But as a person who enjoys using mana dorks, I would love a bowmaster ban lol
im new to cedh and picked up kinnan because it had the largest primer. You said that kinnan has a low floor and a high ceiling. does this mean that it wouldnt be great for a beginner who doesnt fully know what hes doing?
Not a huge Kinnan player, but I think the ongoing sentiment is that Kinnan is "easy" because people think it's just ramp then flip into big things, but the issue is if you rely on that you're just blindly throwing darts hoping to hit. There's actually a lot more skill involved and weird lines rather than just big flips. Could also be a huge reason that his win rate suffers because a lot of people starting in cEDH just run Kinnan and try to spin to win. Also if you play that way, Bowmasters kinda dusts you by killing Kinnan and your dorks constantly. There's no such thing as an "easy" cEDH deck because of how complicated the format is, but Kinnan is still incredible and the good pilots win at an extremely high rate still so if you are interested I'd still recommend giving him a go!
I went from Heliod to T&K because stax decks suck right now and any good player can pilot T&K reasonably. Immediately top 16ing with Rebell’s “first cards I found in the drawer” on zero reps is completely unreasonable.
Ban fetchlands that would totally balance the 4/5 color piles and make games quicker !! Maybe rhystic/mystic are in the conversation because blue is BS. Dockside,Thassa,bowmasters are totally healthy fun to play with and fun to play against keep them here.
legit, bowmasters is a blessing by punishing decks that that want to grind and draw all the cards which pulls them ahead. That's what I call counterplay.
It doesn't punish the player drawing lol, it punishes X/1s. Even if you draw no cards at all, your X/1s will get picked off because someone else dropped a rhystic
I actually personally disagree hard. Dockside is not a thing holding those back but dockside combos by themselves makes the decks that have limits harder to pilot
Is there a reason that cEDH and EDH cannot have separate ban lists? Plenty of banned cards should be fine in a cEDH environment. Edit: I hear the take on this not being the solution. But why not?
no DB or DBZ at all as kids baffles me. it was an audio and video treat for me as a kid. akira toriyama's (RIP) art style was the template for many anime.
genuinely i think July was so skewed because of the west coast-adjacent tourneys. it makes things look really weird. once the invitational has passed, i think things will shape out to looking pretty standard again. don't even get me started on the entire rogsi psyop that was the month of July 🤣
also adding in about Dockside (from a totally non-biased, for sure, don't look at my current Korvold streak), i DO see what Cal is saying but i also think that it's a tiny bit of an exaggeration that Dockside is somehow killing sans-red. like, just using this month as an example there are MORE sans-red decks in this top 10 than grixis->5c spread (i know it's a weird month but still). I think the pull for playing Red is as much Breach as it is Dockside, and the issue doesn't really go away if the card does. there still does have to be a downside to opting out of specific colors, and if that downside outweighs the good then i think it's a deck issue and not a "this feeds Dockside too hard" issue. the real issue is that wotc keeps printing more and more incentives to play in this grixis+ zone, while not providing powerful incentives to... anything else... they are too fair with white and green cards and this sways things heavily. i don't even think unbanning anything in those two colors would help. there needs to be an actual, factual, wincon in those to colors by themselves to really step it up into the same territory. otherwise they are just playing support to the real winners. i genuinely do think it's a worse format if Dockside is gone. i don't think Tymna/Kraum or RogSi really change... at all? but the amount of decks that DO die is almost uncountable. i think a solid chunk of the cedh playerbase would probably quit if it happened. it would be like having a deckbuilding ice-age after a generation of stability. most of us weren't around at the start, when people were still figuring things out and tier lists and meta breakdowns weren't really a thing at all. a shakeup like that could be a lethal hit to this budding format. even worse, if Dockside is gone and Bowmasters is not (and i'm not even a big believer in OBM being a problem fwiw) then things would actually just be worse for the decks that needed Dockside AND would be just as bad for the decks that didn't. i think it's actually a testament to how healthy this format is right now (which can be debated a little) that we only have such varied, very solid options across all color pairings. i unironically (and likely kinda crazy sounding-ly) think propaganda does a better job at making a deck do well in this format than any actual metric of power.
re: Nadu I don't think the card is healthy for the format. Nadu doesn't make the format more diverse; there are no decks that are suddenly more powerful because of its existence. instead, Nadu is just taking up a slot in the top 10 and likely won't leave the top 10 for quite some time. as a card in the 99, it doesn't provide for any sort of interesting/novel approaches to gameplay or deckbuilding -- unlike, say, a combo piece like Paradox Engine. it promotes unhealthy, non-deterministic play patterns that end up taking entirely too long and that can't be shortcutted. maybe I'm just super salty but I hate that such a generically powerful Simic commander -- embodying the most stereotypical card draw + ramp goes brrrrr kind of shit imaginable -- exists. the deck didn't even have to get tuned in order to start putting up results! you could give that deck to a goddamn toddler and they'd take down a tournament. that is not the kind of card I like having in a format.
Banning Dockside just creates a world where sans blue becomes fringe/high powered vs cEDH. Imagine trying to run Jund/Mardu/Rakdos without Dockside. It eliminates so many archetypes. Really glad that Ian sees this. Cal just wants 3 hr rhystic/mystic games 😂.
I continued listening and Ian made the, " these decks become fringe" argument. Spot on.
Couldn’t agree more. Dockside literally makes etali a viable deck. Dockside feels like the one card that can be so powerful that makes like you said high power decks cedh and able to sneak some wins in pretty easily. I don’t even play etali im just sorta pointing out how much dockside makes viable where as what Cal wants is for tivit to be better but it’s already default better than etali because of reliability
One second : "Tivit is my babyyyyyy."
Next second: "In order to make Tivit more powerful, we should ban dockside."
Magda is probably still quite good
@@TheHorriblificDR yeah theres a clear amount of bias i felt like. Which there probably is from ian as well given ian likes creature decks but i think you can clearly win without dockside which was represented in this list of atraxa and TnT being viable top 10 decks. Also tivit 😂. If you cut dockside idk many red decks that would run red at all tbh
@@TheHorriblificDRyeah, extremly one sided opinion thinking only about his deck and not considering the format. I totally disagree with him at least Ian does not blindly hate on cards and has some good points
I won my first tournament with atraxa last weekend! Won an underground sea!
Do you have a list?
Ian, I was ping pong champion of Vermont in the nineties. I have the balls signed by the players in the tournament. I will trade them with you for a basic island and a signed half eaten ham sandwich.
already counting down for the day Cal say: "imagine how good Tvit will be, if we ban all the other cards that are not in my Tvit list"
I am a stax player here. And i like you think i have a pretty firm understanding of the format from the perspective of a stax player.
Dockside is not the problem here. Null rod, ROL Ave Blind obedience solve the dockside problem. It's the fact that the decks can also cruise onto bowmasters to make a third of my deck unplayable and then chain of vapor the one piece that isn't bowmasterable for the win. That's the problem.
I just think unbans should be talked about over bans. Unban Paradox and open up the format to more fringe decks. Let us have a bio rhythm or a Prime Time to give green some love. Balance could make weird decks like a Teshar style viable or Cals Thras/Arden more of a thing.
How do you feel about hull breacher unban
I don't think Biorythm moves the needle at all, but I would like to see quite a few unbans to go along with the bans that I would like. That said, I agree with Ian about not splitting the format and I just don't see the RC unbanning Balance or Paradox Engine.
@@hellproof2379 Blue bowmasters, but it makes treasure instead of damage and they don't get the draws. Nah, I'm good.
Would love a paradox unban for sure
No bans, just unbans
43 Seconds after upload. Personal best
Fuck 😭😭
I think that banning Mystic Remora or Rhystic Study is probably the actual answer. Blue is the definitive best color and format actually revolves around those two cards. Blue shouldn't have the best interaction, card draw engines and wincons in my opinion
For real, it's such a handicap not running blue. Down with blue!!!
Yesss 100%
Goodbye mystic/rhystic
Maybe even fetchlands hit the 4/5 color piles and also speed games up haha
So excited to see new life being breathed into Tymna/Thrasios! Might have to yoink that breakfast list and give it a whirl!
Great minds think alike! We just had the same conversation about Nadu. It's such a good card for cEDH and such a bad card for Commander
That's the same format
@@TheSpiritombsableye Yeah, cEDH is competitive EDH. Commander is casual EDH
After our conversation and your last pod. I'm moving to kenrith which is just korvold with Blue
Yuriko got quite a bit of tech recently and the new Kaito is going to be a slam dunk!
Rog/thras is something I just put together. Something I’ve noticed is that the speed of set up helps in this increase super mega turbo meta we have. However, it is still slower than RogSi. As a dawnwaker player also I feel the white missing but I will say that rog/ thras pivots to midrange against faster turbo decks MUCH BETTER. Bc I always have mana left open. I just think this deck and the pilot need to have a great understanding of how to mulligan in certain pods. You need to know “who’s the beat” if you get my drift
Over the next two months we'll also be having the last few qualifiers for the European Championship followed by the Championship in November. So I'd say in four months time not 1-2 months time.
Everything you said Cal @56:05 and onward, bang on.
Hot take: don't ban anything. The format is fine and it's constantly evolving
8:25 I drink a spindrift seltzer mixed with a Celsius each morning; excellent taste sir!
Yuriko!!! woo!!!! love to see Koko putting up a win with our favourite Ninja 😎
I’d like to see Valley Floodcaller added to Atraxa lists. The card has been making waves elsewhere. Combining it with Neoform feels like potential for some spice going forward.
Not having Magda in the Top 10 after its continued success is just objectively wrong.
Agreed
Rhystic study and remora is way worse for the format than dockside imo. And you see rhystic just as much as dockside. But i also enjoy explosiveness/storm lol. So my bias is there too.
But as a person who enjoys using mana dorks, I would love a bowmaster ban lol
Top 4’d a 45 person tourney with Magda. Wish it was a bigger tourney so she could get more numbers 😂 go Magda ❤
It'd be cool if we got a pool party for 10k subscribers...
i feel like dockside should stay, and bowmasters should go. bowmasters makes dockside so much better by making people so reliant on artifact mana
This is the correct take
Can i have the tymna/thrasios list they are talking about, please
Anyone know where I can find that TnT breakfast list that won?
im new to cedh and picked up kinnan because it had the largest primer. You said that kinnan has a low floor and a high ceiling. does this mean that it wouldnt be great for a beginner who doesnt fully know what hes doing?
Not a huge Kinnan player, but I think the ongoing sentiment is that Kinnan is "easy" because people think it's just ramp then flip into big things, but the issue is if you rely on that you're just blindly throwing darts hoping to hit. There's actually a lot more skill involved and weird lines rather than just big flips. Could also be a huge reason that his win rate suffers because a lot of people starting in cEDH just run Kinnan and try to spin to win. Also if you play that way, Bowmasters kinda dusts you by killing Kinnan and your dorks constantly.
There's no such thing as an "easy" cEDH deck because of how complicated the format is, but Kinnan is still incredible and the good pilots win at an extremely high rate still so if you are interested I'd still recommend giving him a go!
Do your do shipping to Singapore?
2 min in and we’re looking for the balls of a champion. Peak content
I went from Heliod to T&K because stax decks suck right now and any good player can pilot T&K reasonably. Immediately top 16ing with Rebell’s “first cards I found in the drawer” on zero reps is completely unreasonable.
What website do ya'll use to look at these tournament statistics?
Probably edhtop16
Leave Dockside alone he’s just a silly little goblin, ban Thoracle instead 👹
For sans white decks, Get back to maindecking force of despair until Nadu goes away
Ban fetchlands that would totally balance the 4/5 color piles and make games quicker !!
Maybe rhystic/mystic are in the conversation because blue is BS.
Dockside,Thassa,bowmasters are totally healthy fun to play with and fun to play against keep them here.
Can I ask where you see these top 16 and deck lists
edhtop 16
legit, bowmasters is a blessing by punishing decks that that want to grind and draw all the cards which pulls them ahead. That's what I call counterplay.
It doesn't punish the player drawing lol, it punishes X/1s. Even if you draw no cards at all, your X/1s will get picked off because someone else dropped a rhystic
the format goes nadu/kinn without dockside lol
I actually personally disagree hard. Dockside is not a thing holding those back but dockside combos by themselves makes the decks that have limits harder to pilot
No bans, just unbans
Is there a reason that cEDH and EDH cannot have separate ban lists? Plenty of banned cards should be fine in a cEDH environment.
Edit: I hear the take on this not being the solution. But why not?
Give us a nice coin for mana crypt!!!! I love a nice coin.
i will play najeela til i die!!!
Ban bowmasters
Ban$ top 3 for Mee 55:47
dockside. Mystic. Rhystic.
no DB or DBZ at all as kids baffles me. it was an audio and video treat for me as a kid. akira toriyama's (RIP) art style was the template for many anime.
Wtf is this comment? Bot.
Never watched Dragonball Z? Can't trust anything this guy says now
Took 33 minutes before callahan started on again about magda. at this point yall just baiting and it is getting old
genuinely i think July was so skewed because of the west coast-adjacent tourneys. it makes things look really weird. once the invitational has passed, i think things will shape out to looking pretty standard again.
don't even get me started on the entire rogsi psyop that was the month of July 🤣
also adding in about Dockside (from a totally non-biased, for sure, don't look at my current Korvold streak), i DO see what Cal is saying but i also think that it's a tiny bit of an exaggeration that Dockside is somehow killing sans-red. like, just using this month as an example there are MORE sans-red decks in this top 10 than grixis->5c spread (i know it's a weird month but still). I think the pull for playing Red is as much Breach as it is Dockside, and the issue doesn't really go away if the card does. there still does have to be a downside to opting out of specific colors, and if that downside outweighs the good then i think it's a deck issue and not a "this feeds Dockside too hard" issue.
the real issue is that wotc keeps printing more and more incentives to play in this grixis+ zone, while not providing powerful incentives to... anything else... they are too fair with white and green cards and this sways things heavily. i don't even think unbanning anything in those two colors would help. there needs to be an actual, factual, wincon in those to colors by themselves to really step it up into the same territory. otherwise they are just playing support to the real winners.
i genuinely do think it's a worse format if Dockside is gone. i don't think Tymna/Kraum or RogSi really change... at all? but the amount of decks that DO die is almost uncountable. i think a solid chunk of the cedh playerbase would probably quit if it happened. it would be like having a deckbuilding ice-age after a generation of stability. most of us weren't around at the start, when people were still figuring things out and tier lists and meta breakdowns weren't really a thing at all. a shakeup like that could be a lethal hit to this budding format.
even worse, if Dockside is gone and Bowmasters is not (and i'm not even a big believer in OBM being a problem fwiw) then things would actually just be worse for the decks that needed Dockside AND would be just as bad for the decks that didn't.
i think it's actually a testament to how healthy this format is right now (which can be debated a little) that we only have such varied, very solid options across all color pairings. i unironically (and likely kinda crazy sounding-ly) think propaganda does a better job at making a deck do well in this format than any actual metric of power.
re: Nadu
I don't think the card is healthy for the format.
Nadu doesn't make the format more diverse; there are no decks that are suddenly more powerful because of its existence. instead, Nadu is just taking up a slot in the top 10 and likely won't leave the top 10 for quite some time.
as a card in the 99, it doesn't provide for any sort of interesting/novel approaches to gameplay or deckbuilding -- unlike, say, a combo piece like Paradox Engine.
it promotes unhealthy, non-deterministic play patterns that end up taking entirely too long and that can't be shortcutted.
maybe I'm just super salty but I hate that such a generically powerful Simic commander -- embodying the most stereotypical card draw + ramp goes brrrrr kind of shit imaginable -- exists. the deck didn't even have to get tuned in order to start putting up results!
you could give that deck to a goddamn toddler and they'd take down a tournament. that is not the kind of card I like having in a format.
I'm a Nadu pilot... bird go brrrrr I take ur prize money
The fact yall didn't know anything g about dbz. Made me unsub 🤷♂️
The fact that you can't spell "y'all" makes me not care.