Fantastic Video as always. I can personally attest that the set up is right on the money. Since making these changes and going with Your design for the room the ATMOS is simply WOW! Revisiting lots of films and movies and the difference is night and day. It is like hearing the tracks for the first time.
@@hometheatergurus I have a question about top middle speaker placement. If you have the angles correct for the top front and top rear, it seems like the top middle ought to be spaced wider than them to maintain the 45° off the shoulder of the listener. This would make them top/middle/rears lined up curved like parentheses instead of two straight lines. Or should I just line up the top middles with the top front and top rears? I can pay for your time to discuss.
@@Goze211 you're definitely thinking correctly and yes you are correct although the stuido when doing 6 doesn't follow that so to keep it the same we don't. But yes the angle does get out of alignment and bow out at tad with top mid in line, but it's not much and not really audible. In reality, if you're doing the closer grouping like a studio, top mid isnt an audible upgrade over 4. There's not enough gap to need it. In most rooms if I have multi rows and we have more than 4, the extra are arrays.
This is amazing since I determined this about five years ago when designing my theater. As an engineer my analysis was the same as yours and I moved my six Atmos/ceiling speakers much closer together to maintain separation from my surrounds. In a small room I would also recommend acoustic panels higher on the side walls to absorb reflected sound from the Atmos/ceiling speakers. I am now a subscriber. Keep up the excellent, technically sound work!!
I spent several hours moving my top speakers following the given formula and... IT TOTALLY WORKED! I had been missing out FOR YEARS. What a shame that was. But not anymore. I'm glad the TH-cam algorithm suggested this video.
I’m having a hard time following this. Around 22 mins you have an image up and I cannot tell which way the room is oriented, where would the TV be in this room? It sounds like the way you are talking the left of the image is the back of the room and the right is the front of the room. However the image looks more like the top of the image is the front of the room making the speakers on the left and right the side surrounds. So the 30 degrees is that left to right as you look at the tv or front to back (I understand that 30 degrees will alter based on base layer elevation)? Having watched many of your videos now, I think it is both (30 deg in front and 30 deg to the side) if the elevation is the same on side and rear surrounds in a 7.1.4 setup. On your recommendation I’ve imported the RSL C34E mkii to help, with getting the best sound. They seem to be the shallowest angled speaker I can find as I don’t want to loose to much ceiling hight with the false ceiling I’m putting in, in front of my sound dampening layer.
It may take a few times to sink in but it's explained when we first look this direction that this is looking back to front and I point out the screen. Just take your time and don't skip and it'll make sense. It is a lot of information .
@@hometheatergurus thank you, in terms of front to back is that a similar angle ? Are you looking at say 60 degrees (from horizontal) if say the bed layer is 15 degrees?
I just want to say thank you from New Zealand! We set up our Denon X8500HA today with B&W CCM684 Atmos speakers based on this layout and it’s fn awesome! Thank you for stopping us making a huge mistake by following the Dolby layout. Subscribed!!
Huge thanks for this one, I have no idea what I'd have done without this. Googling "speaker placement" is just chaos, but this layed everything out perfectly. Paired with episode 49, I think I'm pretty much set for 7.3.4! Not to mention how helpful the REW tutorial was for those 3 subs.
I've continued to come back to this video for nearly a year in anticipation of placing all my speaker positionings /angles. Using a digital angle finder with a laser to peg all my placements in line with this video has been a massive help and also super fun to do with my sons. Thank you again for this!
I just finished my 9.2.6 dedicated theater and followed Steve's recommendation to a tee: all speakers aimed at MLP, L/R at 60 degree spread, Atoms speakers with built-in 15 degree baffle placed at 60-degree spread, acoustic treatments per Anthony Grimani. I'm still calibrating and tweaking, the room already sounds fantastic. Atmos content is tremendously improved and much more discernable over my previous wider layout. I have low ceiling height at around 7.5' and the Atmos speakers are only 5' apart to achieve the 60-degree spread at ear level. Probably don't need the 2 middle speakers, but I had them and might as well use it. Don't be afraid to group and aim your Atmos speakers closer to MLP, trust and follow the angles and you'll be very happy. Thanks for all the knowledge Steve, keep the videos coming 👍
I knew Dolby was careless with their PDF for home setup. Fortunately there's always people with common sense who fix those things, such as the HT Gurus!
I would love to see both you and Techno Dad blindfolded and then placed into Atmos setups, one set up the way you believe sounds best and one set up the way Channa believes sounds best. Then after listening to each setup blindly I wonder if you each could pick out which room you were in.
It'll never happen. I'd love to see the "pros" do blindfolded speaker challenges and find the difference between a $500 floorstanding speaker compared to a $5000 one.
@@jerry4012 the speaker cost isn't as big a factor as proper placement and room acoustics. You can easily destroy a very expensive system with a cheaper system better setup.
See the feedback on the avs thread from those coming from heights and even tops too far out. It wouldn't even be a competition honestly. The general feeling is it's like hearing atmos for the first time. And i stopped adding feedback months ago and there's 3x what you see here. Plus it's not like we haven't tested heights but if we want to hear what the studio heard, we can't have speakers no where near where they did when they mixed the content. the VOG exists for a reason which is the huge gap heights leave above you so even formats that use heights understand you need an actual speaker above you to fix the issue. Here's the AVS link. www.avsforum.com/threads/dolby-atmos-setup-mistakes-many-seem-to-make.3238531/ We have not had one single person move from heights to "properly placed tops" and not be WOWed. You can't compare compromised tops with poor placement and or poor aiming and compare them to another layout and claim one is better. Both must be ideally setup unless you can't in your space but that just makes it better for your space. The problem is there's so many poorly setup atmos systems so in such cases yeah of course setting them to heights is likely better as you never really heard atmos as intended due the layout issues. Here's a link to an interview from an actual Atmos studio engineer for Hollywood. They go over placement in the studio and how to recreate that in your room and yeah , they discuss those using heights and the issues with that when it comes to atmos. In the end do what sounds good to you but before anyone discredits atmos, do your self a favor and place them per ep 49. You will not go back. th-cam.com/video/ZyoXdgcmOa0/w-d-xo.html
All techno dad theory is base on the Atmos program when you set sound. Becouse that program makes you set the audio in a cubical room, according to him you need speakers on the top of the room to make a cube with your speakers. No sense. He doesn't talk about angles at all, when that is the main thing. It's not the same to have a 6,5 feet ceiling than a 10 feet ceiling. What guru is saying have total sense. You need to separate speakers one from another. Atmos need two layers. Ear level and over head. When you set your speakers in a very close angles (like techo dad) your ears can't differenciate if the sound is coming from over you or in front of you. I'm on the limit of the 45° and sometimes I feel the sound coming from in front of me. I pause the film, rewind, stand up and get my ear in the Atmos speaker and then in my frontal speaker. Sound was coming from the top, and I wasn't sure. It's a pitty but I made holes in my ceiling so now I can't change to 55°. I wish I would find this guy before. If you follow techo dad, he has the cinema in the living room, and he tries to have a cool style, so I guess what he wants is to keep the style, and he try to convince himself (and others) than high speakers are the best for Atmos. I'm sorry, it's not. If techo and guru make a Blidy test, Both could feel in the first Atmos scene with set up is which. It's really obvious when you have listening ceiling and high speakers at home.
This video just saved may ass before I started cutting holes!!! My gut told me that the speakers needed to be closer in to the main center position, as well as angled, but all the diagrams, and even ppl on the forums kept saying to keep the ATMOS outside of the seating area (basically aligning with the mains), and firing down straight down. Thank you for your advice, and detailed information on possible speaker locations for my room dimensions.
Glad you watched it in time. You have to be very careful where you get information as I'm sure you've found out. We do have a Facebook page if have any future questions.
So just to be clear - the target ideal degrees for all speaker placements is the foundation for all-things acoustically aligned related to where said channels will dimensionally end up? I feel like using multiple lasers that also show degrees, from listing position would make an install super efficient. Point being if you follow the acoustical placement map / cadence of degrees per channel from listening, the flow to physical placements in the room would be butter….
Laser measurements for speaker placements is used in the majority of high end home cinema's. Yes if done correctly everything should flow like a hot knife through butter! Assuming it's a good or great Atmos mix on the 4K blu ray disc of course haha.
Thank you! This is probably the best speaker placement video I've ever seen. I'm moving from a 5.1 to 7.2.4 setup and my test placements based on the Dolby pdf have been disappointing so far. I'm going to go back to the drawing board and come up with new placements based on your video. I'm confident it's going to sound significantly better based on your information.
Great video. What might help when you are explaining the difference between the angles is to point out that they are based on a half sphere and not a rectangle. Which is why accoustic alignment and physical alignment locations differ.
The difference at 12:40 comes from the different layouts (equidistant and orthogonal), but in the Dolby Atmos Home Entertainment Studio pdf from 2021 (downloaded directly from Dolby) it looks there are different values again than in your pdf…
So my take away from this is that the Surround and ATMOS speakers should be equidistance (angle degrees) from each other in the cross section. My only question is about calculating the perceived height of angled in ceiling surround speakers. I have a 16 ft wide room with a 10 ft ceiling, but I've placed my AIC surround speakers in a one foot soffit around the edge of the room. Do I use the physical location or perceived speaker location - maybe a foot lower.
Some HT guys are only advisors ......... this guy has truly earned the title Guru.............. I have always copied commercial cinema in my home HT setups and this video is the "Chef's Kiss" confirmation video that speakers need separation to breathe actual atmosphere into your atmos setup
Well I fell “victim” to the dolby specs and can vouch for everything that was said about the atmos being….meh…after setting up speakers per their pdf. Now after watching this and previous videos of yours, I have moved my Atmos speakers closer and all I have to say is what’s been said time and time again…is just wow! 🤯 Thank you very much for the information 🫵🏻👍🏻 It’s the little things that have BIG impacts in this hobby.
Low and behold...night and day. Well done sir, ty 7.1.4 here, I had to pull my front heights about 3' forward, and my rears heights about 1.5' closer. Wow. Big diff. Makes sense. Visually I now have a bubble. Over the front mains is stupid. Damn it! I thought it was great before....now I have to watch everything again....again. lol
That's AWESOME! And the kicker is you can have a budget system that sounds vastly better than a high end expensive one all because of issues like this!
I appreciate your content so much. I wish I'd have found your content before I built my theater room. Or had you as my designer. I screwed up and put the overheads as wide as the mains. I had to buy the Focal ICLR5's to help make up for that. At least I can toe in the mid and tweeter to compensate.
Great video great informations. Now I’m thinking about why not using 60 degrees for every angle with the Atmos speakers. 60 from left to right with the surrounds (-8 degrees lift) and 60 from front to behind with and without surround backs @ 5.2.x bed layer.
Another great video. I installed my Atmos speakers only a day or two before your 'Atmos mistakes' video. Unfortunately I used the dotted lines in the Dolby guide. I definitely need to move my Atmos speakers and check out the difference. I plan to build angled boxes for my in-ceiling speakers to get them pointing at my MLP. I have shared your videos multiple times on the HTE group to help people get their speakers installed right the first time. Keep up the good work 👍
Yes, very frustrating, especially since common sense always told me to put atmos more overhead! There is an obstruction overhead for me anyway but thats some bad info out there. Appreciate the clean-up. Time to move some brackets and obstructions.
I've always hated the dotted line PDF. I imagine I'm going to be sat in a 3D sphere of sound, the diameter of which is determined by the front of my Centre speaker. The other speakers are then placed at the appropriate angles with their fronts attached to the sphere pointing inwards to the listening position. In reality rooms have boundaries so you have to bring some speakers in closer to fit but just maintain the same angles as if they were still on the imaginary sphere.
Exactly, it's all about the angles. I know people professionally trained to line up with the dotted lines. Someone from Dolby should have said something long ago as even in their home pdf they state what those are for (.5-.7).
2.0.2 setup. 8 ft ceiling. Where should my atmos speakers be? Directly over top of my listing position? Or 45degrees behind me? Or 45degrees in front? Please help.
@@hometheatergurus exactly I went with a 7.2 system didn’t work well in my space but when I switched the configuration to 5.2.2 much better results my next upgrade is a 5.2.4 with the onkyo RZ50
Great video, I know with thr Atmos Mistakes video, I was not happy as I spent a lot of time measuring amd running speaker wire only to be unhappy with the sound based on what Dolby told me. This video makes even more sense, but puts a new winter project on my list to not only relocate and change my wiring, but now I have to fix the 4 big holes in my ceiling. Dolby should be a smart enough company to develop a simple program where people can input thr required measurements and they should spit out the exact locationa of all of your speakers as well as tolerance areas. Ot is ridiculous that Dolby creates something amd based om tjeor guidance, 90% of their customers are not set up correctly
Great input! But it left me with some questions. My basement is 20’W by 35’L. However there is a supporting post 12’ from (left) side wall where I hung my right surround. My left surround is on the (left) side wall, both at 15 degrees higher from listening position. The TV is 11’ from the listening position. My ceiling is low at 7’. My LCR towers are 3’3” tall. My 2 questions- Can I keep the C centered just below the TV? What angles should I place them all for a good 5.1.2?
At around 10:20 in the video there is a picture of overhead speaker placement are those angles still in play? You never come back to the overhead view when talking about height. You give angles ~55-60 degrees when seen from the back, but you never show where those speakers are from the top view? If for example they are 55 degrees from the LR side speakers you calculate the distance from center - that is a line in the ceiling but you never say where on that line they should be front to back... or did I miss it? Can you elaborate on that?
you can use the same tolerances for width as well. WE touched on it in the previous video where we looked at the studio guide. I wish I had clarified it in this one as well.
Hey there, your videos are spot-on, thanks for taking the time to share them with us. Quick question: your video recommends a 55-degree angle, but when I use my phone and a laser to mark the front high position at 55 degrees, it creates a circular pattern on the ceiling. Is this the correct layout? Or you mean mark a line from the A measurement to the ceiling and then create a point at 55 degrees? but If so, then the two fronts are no longer at a 55-degree angle from the listening position. Could you talk on instructions using degree measurements instead of meters from the A position? I saw a message in the description box, i think this may be what i am trying to say "when you are explaining the difference between the angles is to point out that they are based on a half sphere and not a rectangle. Which is why acoustic alignment and physical alignment locations differ." thank you so much answering this question . i have recently become a subscriber . this info is to good to miss. cheers
Thanks for subscribing. Yep, the actual speaker is further than 55 once spread but that is irrelevant as that is not how we determine placement. Just follow the video and you'll be good to go. You can also see ep 49 for a reference I made so you can find the placement in a few minutes.
@@hometheatergurus Hey buddy, I wanted to express my gratitude for your response and your channel. You're putting in a lot of effort, not just in creating great videos, but also revealing what's possible with the equipment most of us already have. It feels like you're sharing secrets that not many people know about, and I & the HT community appreciate that.
Really enjoyed it! Need to change my set up but I just have a 5.1.2 not a 5.1.4, don't know if that changes a lot what you are explaining here. Thanks!
@HomeTheaterGurus Great video but I’m struggling to understand one aspect of the horizontal placement when looking at the room towards the screen. Your “fixed” angles have the speakers at 60*, which makes them closer together than at least half the width of the room, which would be 7 feet. You have them a tad under 6 feet. Isn’t this out of spec?
I'm having some serious comprehension problems. First, my biggest issue is following what planes your angles are coming from. I think if I drew a line from one side of the room and through my ears and then rotate that line 60 degrees from the center of my head I would get the location for side to side. But I'm missing where you get the front and back angles. It looks like you get it from going perpendicular to the first line but I can't get the angles to intersect. Or am I suppose to just focus on the measurements themselves? But doing so is resulting in some rather odd angles. The speakers I want to use are 4 Elac Debut IC-DT61-W which have a 30 degree angle. So that's 3 angles I'm trying to get to intersect in sketchup. I think I'm going to make a 30 degree cone that goes from a point and extends from my ears up to my ceiling. I'm going to assume the Elacs are 30 degrees from the plane of the ceiling. Right now if I come 30 degrees from my head and then rotate the angled line 30 degrees I'm ending up on my wall. What if I were to draw a line from my front speaker to my head (25 degree angle) and then rotate that upwards to 60? I think I'm inverting my angles.... I'm doing 30 when I should be doing 60? So 60 degrees from my head would be 30 from the ceiling? An hour ago I would have sworn I was smart.
After doing that all 4 speakers are 40" apart from the centers. My ceiling is only 7'8" so that may be right but it's just so different than any diagram I've seen. Maybe doing it from the floor will give a bit more distance which might be a good compromise considering there will usually be 3 people in line watching movies.
Thank you for all your insightful videos. I have watched all of your videos on correct atmos placement. In your later videos, your recommendations for Top Fronts and Top Rears has been modified from 45 degrees to 35 degrees from vertical sitting position. I definitely understand your reasoning and agree this would be optimum. In your 3rd video, you discuss 5.1.4 setup speaker placement using the front heights at 45 degrees and top middles at 90 degrees from the floor. Is this still your recommendation? Or do you feel these angles should be adjusted as well? I hope you have time to comment, but if you would prefer a direct consultation, please let me know!
Top fronts and top middle is not a supported placement for atmos. It's top front and top rear. With 45 and 135 degrees being the angles specified for 4 atmos. www.dolby.com/siteassets/about/support/guide/setup-guides/5.1.4-overhead-speaker-placement/5_1_4_overhead_pov.jpg?width=1440&quality=80
So my bedroom is 10ftw by12ftd and I’m trying to figure out how far to spread my rear speakers from my Samsung q930d soundbar my bed is facing the depth way so I never had a soundbar so I don’t know how far to mount them apart
How to place the inwall LCR if you can't tow them in to the main listening position. Is it better to place them as close as possible. I have a 120 inch screen. 14 ft wall wide wall with 9ft ceiling height.
Hey Rock, I have a video on inwall vs in room speakers so check that out. You do want toe in just like you do for in room mains and same thing happens, you're aiming their dispersion. Its not always possible but you do need to understand the issues.
@@hometheatergurus yeah I saw that video. Was really informative. The issue is there is a door on one side of the screen. So not possible to tow them in with false wall.
Yeah I shot this one 2x and had that added but didn't do it the 2nd time. They're on the front wall so will be about the same distance from you as the mains, so the same distance apart will be very close to the same angle. So that is why they would be directly above the mains.
Interesting video. I have an Atmos/Auro 3D hybrid setup, where the ceiling speakers are around 35° front/back and left/right. Kind of the opposite of what this video is suggesting! And unfortunately moving the speakers isn’t really an option as I’ve got acoustic drop ceiling tiles with holes I’ve drilled thru them for the speakers, plus I’m limited because I have to mount them to the joists. However, I’m happy with how it sounds (~13’ wide, 24’ long, 7’10” ceiling), and I tend to prefer playing Atmos tracks with the Auro decoder (Auromatic). Now I understand why the Auro-ified mix sounds better with my speaker layout!
I love your videos and you are Full of knowledge it's obvious but I loose myself with all the videos trying to figure out properly the placement and angle for everything soon will build my home theater room
Good work Steve, it's good watching this, as there is just to much conflicting information out there and it's pretty reassuring of how mine are. I went one step further with my Atmos speaker's, as my bed layer rear's & side's are Accusound REF 8.6XD bookshelf, I bought matching speaker's for my 4 Atmos, I'm a boilermaker and made hanger bracket's, to ceiling mount the Atmos, that in my design, they let my toe in and angle down at my ear, of which I used a laser to align, I hear my atmos with such clarity it's awesome.
Such a great video. I’ve watch it countless times trying to get the angles correct on my new room. You said at 9:01 if you go less than 125 with rears you will be close to getting out of tolerance. My bed layer is only 16 degrees up to account for risers, but I would be pushing my atmos out of tolerance if I try and keep a separation of 50-60 degrees. If my rear atmos is at 125 and bed layer is up 16 degrees that’s only 44 degrees of separation. I assume you start to sound bad if the atmos are 65 or even 70 degrees off bed level?
Awesome video. I have my atmos mounted on side wall since my 8ft cieling is slightly angled due to loft. I seriously wondered how much im missing out on if my heights were directly overhead. I still get good atmos, but i worried about insufficient separation from sides. My room limits my ability to get perfect placement. But good to know i can improve someday. Thanks for video.
Great explanation, very detailed. On Atmos subject I would only add to get speakers which dig low not to overload lfe too much - or even add smaller subs to them - will result in clearer sound especially when a lot action is going on.
See our video on subs, bass management etc. You do need some serious subs as LFE is demanding especially with bass management added but who doesn't like Powerful subs..:)
Thank you so much. My brain still has a hard time seeing this in 2D. A 3D model or better yet, augmented reality model would really help hammer your point home! So you’re saying in most cases (depends on ceiling height) the top atmos speakers should be much further in than your mains not in a direct line between your mains and you surrounds right?
When I look at the Dolby PDF, the Studio PDF, the Dolby studio design tool, and the Audio Advice room builder, they all suggest the same thing. Atmos speakers in line with the L and R. Are you suggesting I ignore all of that and make the spread of the height speaks narrower? 60 degrees up from the side surround would make the height speakers about 5 feet apart in a 16 foot wide room. Is that what you are suggesting?
It's covered in the video. The stuido doesn't recommend in line with mains nor does the home other than the diagrams that lkeokw confused. It's covered in the video.
@@hometheatergurus The studio design tool placed the height speakers in line with the mains left and right. My room is 16' wide, 24' deep, and 11' high. Seating position is 15' from the front. The Audio Advice planner must use the same calculations as the studio design tool because its results were nearly identical to the Dolby Studio Design tool. Both of those happen to look like the Dolby home PDF.
@SoCalVipers it can happen if the mains and ceiling are a similar distance away from the mlp. This is discussed in the video. I also know the guys at audio advice and their tool now sets atmos at an angle not in line. However as mentioned above and in the video it can happen in some cases but they're at an angle and not blindly thrown up in line. This is all discussed. Watch the video if you wanna dive into each pdf.
@@hometheatergurus Thanks for the reply. Do you think I should go strictly on the studio tool recommendations, or make the height spread a little narrower?
Steve, 100% agree with you on speaker positions! I have often thought about the audio mixing engineer and what he/she hears during their work. As I was wide awake at 2:30 this morning I was thinking about this exact information you have presented this morning. Thank you AGAIN! It only makes sense to mimic the studio speaker layout! To put this in perspective - if someone handed you a birdhouse and wanted an exact copy, wouldn't a wise builder make an exact copy? Okay, so to reproduce the audio image the sound engineer made we must build the same "birdhouse". Right? So, based on the info you provided her I am right now going to draw out my room, do the math and reposition my speakers ASAP. Now the BIG question! Where the hell do we get/buy top quality, authentic, calibrated demo/testing, set-up disks or files? I know "Techno Dad" is one the right track with the his self mixed FREE Atmos demo file. It proved to me my system sucks at the moment. I sure hope he makes more because I will be buying them!!! Thank you Mr. Guru! All the very best to you and yours, Kevin
My current setup is FH and TM since my couch is more toward the rear wall. Technodads latest sample with the plane flying overhead made me realize that sounds were not panning front to back very well. I’m going to move my Atmos using the specs from this video but push the TM further back maybe 105-110 so that it’s closer to the TR spec and then probably be settled.
@@hometheatergurus You're AWESOME! Thanks! Oh - BTW those of us that are Panasonic BD player owners cannot play a lot demos via USB for some reason. However, everything I am lucky enough to have does play through my Xbox One X got fine. I have found so many files that claim to be perfect Atmos demos, are not anything more than all speakers mono.
@@hometheatergurus Steve, for those of us on a 5.1.2 system, where do you recommend we mount the ceiling speakers? Currently, I'm in the "top front" position. Thanks in advance!
I cannot really follwow the argumentation on low separation. 1. you have only 30 degree between center and l/r and that´s no issue for separatin. 2. auro 3d only recommends 30 degree and is way more natural then sounds coming from overhead
I was kind of wondering a bit about height speakers too, bc I plan to have the All for One set up. Auro-3D spec wants your front heights above your L/R mains and that really makes sense. I think the problem with Atmos is the mixing, after all.
If you think about it, heights are roughly the same distance from you as the mains (usually) , so if they're directly above the mains , they'll also be roughly the same angle as the mains as well so yes, they'll go directly above and be fine and acoustically within a few degrees of the mains. The Atmos are usually much closer to you than the Mains and Heights so that's the reason we can't use the same width , we want the same angle so it's acoustically aligned.
Steve - Thanks for your detailed explanations. I am new to this, so learnt a lot. I agree with your explanations regarding angles vs dimensions and your thoughts on acoustic alignment. This now raises some questions for me. Assuming the 8 foot ceiling height and a 30 degree acoustic alignment from your examples. From my thinking and please help me if I have something wrong - the 2ft 10in for a 60 degree only applies when the Atmos is directly overhead i.e. the center Atmos in a x.x.6 setup. For the two Atmos in front and two at the back, these would need to be further separated as they are moved away from the center speaker to keep the 30 degree acoustic alignment. So for a 45 degree front to back, the side to side has to be 50 to 51 degrees up so that the angle at the MLP is 30 degrees. This is because the sides of the triangle get longer as the speaker move away from overhead and so the angle distance between these speaker and mid point has to get bigger to keep the angle at the ear/MLP at 30. Here the "sides" are the "line from the speaker" to the MLP and from the "side to side center" between the speakers - lines directly to the ear/MLP from these points. True also for the point (on the ceiling) above MLP. So it seems for a 45 degree front to back placement and 5 foot from MLP to ceiling, the center Atmos will be at 60 up from the sides but the front and back speakers will be 50 degrees up from the side (I am assuming that all floor speakers are at MLP ear level to keep this simple). So it seems to be that if one would want to keep acoustic alignment at 30 degrees then one would set up the front to back first and then calculate the side to side dimension so that the angle at the MLP is 30 degrees. Since Atmos spec allows a range this calculated side to side angle should be within spec. The varying side to side separation would not be a problem in Cinema since the line of speakers means there is a speaker overhead for for each row; don't have that luxury in Home Theatre (not also sure in the Studio setting). What could I be missing here or does this make sense? [I am ignoring speaker off center considerations which could diminish audio experience in order to understand the acoustic alignment from audio object placement; also angled/adjustable speakers could help]
Think of it like the top front and top rear are a pair and the phantom image between them is what we are spreading. You're correct about the top front and top rear when not the same distance forward, although to not make it so confusing most would just throw in the towel we just spread them the same. Normally top front and top rear are so close in distance from the mlp it's not at all audible if the angle changes slightly.
@@RS-hb7nt To have come to that conclusion on your own means you've got a very good grasp on it. If all were acoustically at 55 or all at 60 , A 6 atmos setup would smiley face inward. I almost covered that once but I think it would cause way more confusion than doing good and it's not important enough to cause that pain..:)
I get a pair of new Atmos (RP500SA) speakers tomorrow and since I don't want to bouncy-house them, I'll put them on the wall, probably close to the ceiling and as near to my mains as possible (I'd rather drill into studs than have to use a drywall anchor). I can't wait to hear how they sound! I currently have a 7.1 system (with my mains bi-amped and the surrounds encasing my seat) and have the speakers hooked up to a Denon AVR-X4700, but if I could find room for my old sub I might try to fit it in, too. Since my chair is against the back wall, I think the 2 Atmos speakers on the front is as good as I can achieve as a practical application...besides, I don't want to spend any more money at this time :)
Wall placement for atmos speakers are a solution in selected cases. Do not just randomly place them anywhere. They go just in front of you usually on ceiling. With a spacing of 45-55 degrees elevation either side of you.
@@HTadd1ct There was no chance of me cutting holes in the ceiling (not my house until I inherit). Besides, a small bedroom isn't the best place for a home theater. I mounted them on the wall within a couple inches from the ceiling, almost directly above my mains (bi-amped Klipsch RP-600Miis). When I set them up in the receiver, I found out through trial and error that they were classified as "heights" rather than Atmos modules because of their location. I did watch the first movie with them on top of the speakers as bounc-ys and them hung them up. Like I saw in some videos, Atmos content varies widely among movies. Neat thing is, setting the receiver to Neural-X (or maybe others) activates the heights if Pure doesn't do it by itself (I noticed that the receiver decodes in that mode automatically sometimes). I'd love 2 more heights, but as my one chair is against the back wall, I think I have it "as good as it gets" (to use a movie line and title). The Ready Player One and Apocalypse now were pretty cool as was The Fifth Element.
@@garyausten5939 you clearly haven't got the message do you. I will tell you this. Bedrooms are often more suitable for home theaters due to the enclosed room. This is where my atmos system is. If you don't get the message that 2 atmos speakers go just in front of you at a 45 to 55 degree elevation side to side whether on wall or ceiling based. You are better off dropping it. Second of all you never sit on any walls. This is another thing people fail to get the message. I'll offer you this opportunity to do more planing or you can leave this hobby altogether. If you care about this hobby. You will actually try my ideas before you reject them. Why do you think this youtuber has published videos on how to get the correct atmos setup. He cares deeply and even I've learned a thing or two. Stop wasting your time and effort only to make bullshit excuses. I can do wall mounted atmos in my bedroom as that's where the angles end up. Use a protractor to figure it out before you place speakers anywhere you feel like. I dont respond well to bullshit excuses or people who make no effort to learn. If I can do ceiling speakers. You can too.
LOL, I started out with my speakers on the wall at around 30 degrees, then I watched your ATMOS mistakes video and moved them to 45 degrees and it did make a huge difference, but now your saying to move them to 60 degrees, my wife is going to be mad LOL.
Ohh damn. That sucks. If you watched the mistakes video I do suggest 55 and explain pretty heavily why. That is still my go to which I mention in this video as well. We're just showing how to get acoustically in line with mains at 30 and showing the home plf issues. This is time stamped to that section of the ATmos mistakes video. th-cam.com/video/K-rAhyrZCoA/w-d-xo.html
at 9:05 you mention that 125 is the minimum tolerance. could you please elaborate. I tried to follow all these other instructions to a tee, but there is a slanted wall leading up to my ceiling. I ended up putting the rear ceiling speakers as far back as I could. This ends up being about 3 feet behind the main listening position, which is 12.5 feet from the screen and 6 feet from the front ceiling speakers. My front speakers are listening height of 3 feet off the ground, and my rears at ~5 feet above the ground (2 feet above listening position) 9 feet behind the. I think that means by rear speakers then are at 115 degrees, which is below your minimum of 125 if im understanding it right, but didn't fully catch what's going to mean for my sound (and not sure if interpreted your comment correctly).
What would be the perfect angles if there is only space for one pair of overhead speakers? Got my speakers (7.2) in the living room with a ceiling in the back for now and I’m going to upgrade to Atmos in September when my new AV Receiver gets delivered.
The best info out there as always. Can you please make a video on how to properly design that when you only have the possibility to do 5.1.2, and with a coach against the wall? I mean, a lot of people do not have the space to do 7.1.4. Many of us trying to squeeze the theater in our flats while still getting a bit of Atmos at least :) Thank you so much anyway. Priceless info. P.S. What if the speakers sound better if listened to slightly off-access? Like Emotiva T2+ for example, that I want to use for LCR in my future dedicated HT? Should I also toe them in?
Also 5.x.4 with couch against the wall! Through my testing I think TF & TR are the best for panning front to back but with a couch on the wall-technically the TR end up on the back wall to be 125 minimum tolerance. So to stay in tolerance FH & TM is the only option but I don’t think the panning is nearly as good since the sound hits middle position and then lingers.
Yes! Please make this video. I'm in the same boat. 5.1.2 Couch is about 1.5ft from wall and less than 9ft from center channel to my head, 8ft ceilings. I can't decide where to put heights.
Would be nice to make a video for the realistic, not able to be perfect room, like when the couch is against the back wall... Do you shift all the speakers to the front and have less at the back/above, or do you divide the angles, or... ?
This is great stuff, well explained and makes logical sense…thanks for putting this out there. Apologies if this has already been asked, but would you still strive to maintain fairly even separation on L/R Atmos and surrounds in low ceiling rooms where, say, a left Atmos speaker at 30 off center ends up to the right of the person sitting in the left seat of a 3-seat setup?
That is something to consider but also realize in the cinema half of the seating is on the "other" side of the atmos. So sure keep that in mind and you can nudge them out just don't let an already compromised side seat sink the entire ship.
Excellent video. Been mapping out my large living room using your advice. Curious as to your experience upmixing non Atmos tracks using Auro3D with this layout? I'll need it for audio tracks that are non-Atmos and curious to know if Auro3d will suffer much if at all by using this layout. Cheers.
This is the best atmos video on youtube. Thanks man. About to build a new theatre and learned a lot from your other video and why my first one didnt work as i would have liked. (I followed the pdf graphic and it sucked)
@hometheatergurus tell ya what, if you're looking for a new topic (you may have actually done one already) consider room correction software. Options, benefits etc. I have the rmc1 but haven't paid the $500 bucks to use dirac. Are there cheaper options? Is there a way to achieve a similar result without software? Stuff like that
I have been deep diving into your videos over the last few weeks. I have started to finish my basement and would like to work into a 5.1.2 system. The space will roughly be 12'w 20L 7'5H. I am a live sound engineer, so really looking to do this right, even with a small space. I have a few I hope simple questions or if you do conversions online via email as well. 1) will a 5.1.2 system be enough to fill the space? or should be 5.1.4? 2) do you work with people to help give out placement in 3d of where speakers should go in space? I will keep it at that for now. Thank you very much in advance!
Hey Gerben, I do HT design yes and it shows exact placement of every speaker. In a room that size i'd likely do a 9.2.4. My contact info is in the video description if you need it.
The main reason why there are so many discrepancies in Atmos white paper setups is because of Auro-3D's lawsuit years ago. Atmos for the home used to match Auro-3D's setup to a "T". Dolby was forced to change it after Auro-3D won the suit. What's most interesting to me in your video is that your layout at 19:17 is exactly how Auro-3D instructs installers to place the front heights, horizontally. i.e. right in line with the front L&R speakers. The same concept is applied to the rear heights. They go right above the side/rear surrounds in what would traditionally be a 5.1 setup. The main difference (and where Dolby had to change their setup) is in the elevation of the height speakers. Auro-3D sticks to what humans can perceptually hear in elevation. We can only spatially accurately hear up to 30 degrees vertically (from the floor). Any angle that's steeper than that and biologically, we cannot accurately pinpoint sound. It's very similar in concept to properly integrated subwoofers. So, I will disagree with you with most of the this video. We biologically cannot accurately pinpoint sounds when they're panning overhead at that steep of an angle. This is best demonstrated when planes go overhead. I know that's in diffuse field (same as commercial and post-production cinema) and so the analogy isn't perfect. In small-room acoustics, we get close to being able to hear movement above our heads but it still won't be accurate. Following Auro-3D's setup for home to a "T" gives a much better result for Atmos, DTS, and (obviously) Auro-3D. One major difference (besides different mounting points) is using bookshelf-type speakers mounted high on-wall or on-ceiling next to the wall, aimed towards the MLP, and raised so that when standing at the MLP, it's aiming at your head. This angle is a 30 degree mounting point with a 90 degree aiming point. This is basically right at the top of where we can biologically pinpoint sound and will allow for excellent sound stage and imaging between left and right pairs of height speakers. Speakers simply will not image psychoacoustically went mounted on-ceiling or in-ceiling as prescribed in your video. They will give you an affect of something being above you and having a change in volume (giving the tinies amount of perception of movement) but they will not image. That's just biology. So while Dolby's way (and your way) will give you the effect of something above you, it will not throw a soundstage or image as your ear-level speakers do. The only way to get your height speakers to throw a sound stage and image as your ear-level speaker do is to set them at a point to where our brains can accurately track spatial information. i.e. Audo-3D's setup. StormAudio has probably the best white paper instruction sheet for it but the following link is also excellent: www.grobi.tv/media/pdf/54/36/cf/One-for-all-Setup-Guide_V5-0_englisch_publishigPUdX9hPlgSJ.pdf
I've been doing atmos since it came out. The setup is the same. I also know people thar assisted Dolby in initially implementing atmos for home theater. The processors can use heights but Dolby atmos has always recommended tops with separation from the bedlayer and tops being of high priority.
@@hometheatergurus I mean, that's totally fine. I just disagree. Clearly your installs work and your clients are happy. No arguement there. Auro-3D launched the entire immersive audio format as we know it in 2010. They invented in in 2006. Dolby started using height channels first for sure but all it did was use some phase trickery to push the same signal as the fronts into higher mounted channels. Auro came out with discrete, different content to move into those height channels first. I guess I should've been a bit clearer. Auro release the first immersive audio decoder to send completely different information to height channels. Dolby then came out with Atmos in 2012 that launched their version of it. But as far as biology goes, I mean.... it's biology. I thoroughly appreciate your videos and your subwoofer video using Harmon Room Mode Calculator completely fixed my bass issues. It's not a personal attack or anything. I just disagree with you on the best way to mount and aim front and rear height channels (and probably side surrounds, haha).
Thanks for all the GREAT info. I have used this to recalculate my room (and will send some $$ your way via Patreon soon since your channel has been amazing). My room is 21' long with a 10' ceiling and I still feel I need 6 Atmos. Around 9:30 you talk about only needing 4 for most rooms. But, using your calculations here is how my room ends up: Front LCR = 5° higher than MLP = Front Atmos at 48° from MLP Real LR = 15° higher than MLP = Rear Atmos at 53° from MLP Front Atmos to Rear Atmos = 79° = Too much... so I am adding another set at 86° from MLP which makes the space between the Atmos speakers 38°. 🙂 I guess it's the 10' ceiling that is causing this and that a 21' long room with an 8' ceiling might only need 4 Atmos?
I would get the top fronts closer to 55 degrees. Those two speakers will be the most active of the atmos as the front half hemisphere is just more active i mixes. Make sure the rear atmos have the separation needed. You can use the 45 plus 1/2 the rear height which would be around 127 degrees for the top rear. You wouldn't really need top mid but if you have 3 rows and the back rows aren't just overflow you may want to consider catering to them some but don't let them hurt the MLP too much.
Hey Steve. Would you do anything different if only doing two height channels? I currently am set up in a really shallow living room, so the couch is up against the back wall. Bad, I know. But I want to add two height speakers. My surrounds are about 10deg up from the MLP, so my thought is go 50-60 past that for the heights, depending on where my ceiling joists are.
Great video...i appreciated...i have cathedral ceiling so i was already at a disadvantage...but at least they are above and very close inline...i have one more to put up to make 6 overhead...thks
Thanks! It's all about the angles so just sketch it out and see where the angles place them. But if they're close you're likely good to go and it'll sound great.
Wondering about panning from surround backs to rear atmos, same idea here where you would want rear atmos in same acoustic plane as rear atmos? Similar degree of separation between them as well? These are the only pairs I am worried I cannot get in the same acoustic plane because of angled ceiling in the rear and dorm window 1/3rd of the way in the back wall that cuts the angled ceiling out (1.5 story home).
Hey Will, see the video on Atmos that came out a videos after this one. We actually look at the studio and cinema pdf which show us how we should maintain separation when speakers like rears are raised.
How do you place soeakers when using multiple speakers per channel? Im seting up a 7.1.4 system with 4 side, 2 rear, 2 height (per channel). The sides are clear but Im not sure how the heights should be placed. In a line (front-back or sideways) or should I do it ”spherically”? Im thinking of doing it spherically and like 5 deg on either side of the intended ”main angle”. So if the heights should be 55/55 deg I place the two speakers at say 60/45.
If all speakers are aligned acoustically, this may fit in theory, but if you listen with the spatial audio, the positioning does not fit. The HRTF function and ASA are also completely ignored for channel separation. With a few changes, it could be even better.
TechnoDad said to put the tops at the ends of your room as heights to better get the sound coming from where it should go. This is true, but without the angle of them being closer to you in the ceiling, you lose much of the overhead height effects. Even though I have 4 heights and 2 ceiling, I really feel like it's not better than my bouncy-house configuration because the angles probably aren't drastic enough.
Follow ep 49 and it'll be like hearing atmos for the first time. Blindly placing speakers on a wall at no known angle isn't something I'd advise. If we want to hear what the studio intended we need to pay attention to their layout. If our layout is nothing like theirs we will not hear what was intended.
@@hometheatergurus yeah, I wish I saw your video sooner. I did watch your one on turning the speaker 90 degrees when for middle top, but regret I didn't get angles down soon enough.
I absolutely love your TH-cam channel. I've learned a lot from watching it and I'm hoping you can assist me with proper placement of my 4 ceiling speakers. My speaker system consists of 4 SVS Ultra Bookshelf speakers (2 for the mains and 2 for the side channels), an SVS Ultra Center speaker, 6 SVS Prime Elevation speakers (4 ceiling mounted for Dolby Atmos and 2 mounted on the back wall for the rear channels) and 2 SVS SB-3000 Subwoofers. I currently have my Prime Elevation speakers mounted according to Dolby Atmos recommendations. HOWEVER, I feel that they're too close together. My living room listening area is 14' 5" wide, 13' 10" deep with a 7' 9" ceiling. There's 6' distance between the front L & R speakers and 15' 5" distance between the side surround speakers (left to right). My 4 Prime Elevation speakers are currently mounted on the ceiling, 6' apart left to right as well as 6' apart front to rear. My seating position is 11' from the television/L.C.R. and about 2' from the back wall. I've already determined that I need to widen the left to right distance of my ceiling speakers an additional 4' (10' apart vs. the current 6'), but I'm unsure if I can relocate the FRONT pair of ceiling more towards the TV. I ultimately would like to mount them just SLIGHTLY in front of the TV and about 10' apart. This would position the rear pair 2' behind the listening position and the front pair almost 11' in front. I'm also mounting them on brackets that will allow me to aim them PRECISELY at my primary listening area. I play all of my movies with Auro-3D upscaling through my YAMAHA AVENTAGE RX-A8A. So here's my question: will this speaker arrangement give me a better overall listening experience? I wish to thank you in advance for any suggestions you can offer and for all the "two thumbs up" videos you produce. Have a great day!
I have been making a plan for my Home Theater now, and i've created a bubble, where i got a 60 degree gap between all the speakers. its a 7.2.4 setup. Is 60 degree near perfect? angled wise i mean. or does it make a difference that between my 4 atmos speakers and the bedlayer there is a 50 degree gap, or should i aim for keeping that at 60. I got only one row so i wont have to compromise with very much higher rear surrounds. Hope you can confirm my thoughts, that im on a good way. Thanks for the videos man, they are inspirational!
Thanks great video.. Totally solved my ATMOS design problems ... Now the decision what speakers to use for ATMOS. I have some B&W ceiling speakers but wondering if i should get the INCEILING ROTATING SILVER/9 SAT or to save cost i can ceiling mount B&W M1 and angle ??? Many Thanks awesome advice...
Is there a Dolby Atmos setup disc or file that we can use to test out speaker placements. It might have specific demos to show separation should be heard. A lot of people use smaller atmos speakers so the crossover is set higher than surrounds and LCR. Not ideal using different speakers.
I've got benefit of choosing where I can I place speakers. I have a 7.2 denon s750h entry level receiver. With me having only option of 2 atmos speakers which location is best for buck. Also when I upgrade recievers to say 4 atmos again where should I consider these 4 speakers. For example Top front. Top middle top back? Thanks in advance.
I had that in the video but took it out. As the heights are on the wall and the same distance (roughly) as the mains, they would be above the mains and they'll be roughly the same angle as well as they're roughly the same distance from you.
Wired my 10x20x 8 ft tall room for a 5.1.6. i have been searching for height speakers with threaded inserts so i can hang them on brackets and "aim" them. Really struggling to find them in the $500 per pair range. Only thing i have found are the svs prime elevation which have threaded inserts. Can't help but think that being able to aim the height speakers and direct their energy directly at the listener will make a big difference as compared to speakers being aimed straight down. Keyhole mounts are not an option, Needs to have the threaded insert. Any suggestions would be highly appreciated.
I know, it's on the list I'm just so swamped with room plans and tutorials like that are a beast. Gene actually has some great ones over at audioholics.
Thanks Steve, another excellent video. Your videos are always so helpful to get the most out my dedicated Home Theater room. Following your suggestions, I relocated my 4 Top Atmos speakers to be 55 degrees above the bed layer speakers (were about 43 degrees). Not a too much work since I'm using 4 bookshelf speakers ceiling mounted on adjustable pipe brackets. Listened to the Dolby Atmos Demo tracks, nice improvement, looking forward to replaying some of my 4k UHD Atmos movies. PS. Just finished rewatching Gravity 4k with Atmos track.... awesome, much more engaging now. Tim👍
Fantastic Video as always. I can personally attest that the set up is right on the money. Since making these changes and going with Your design for the room the ATMOS is simply WOW! Revisiting lots of films and movies and the difference is night and day. It is like hearing the tracks for the first time.
Thanks Troy and so glad the videos have been able to transform your room. Game Changing sounds like click bait but on this topic it's really not.
@@hometheatergurus I have a question about top middle speaker placement. If you have the angles correct for the top front and top rear, it seems like the top middle ought to be spaced wider than them to maintain the 45° off the shoulder of the listener. This would make them top/middle/rears lined up curved like parentheses instead of two straight lines. Or should I just line up the top middles with the top front and top rears? I can pay for your time to discuss.
@@Goze211 you're definitely thinking correctly and yes you are correct although the stuido when doing 6 doesn't follow that so to keep it the same we don't. But yes the angle does get out of alignment and bow out at tad with top mid in line, but it's not much and not really audible.
In reality, if you're doing the closer grouping like a studio, top mid isnt an audible upgrade over 4. There's not enough gap to need it. In most rooms if I have multi rows and we have more than 4, the extra are arrays.
@@hometheatergurus Hey. I got 9.1.4, shall I set up my Atmos at side(studio) or middle(home)?
@@josealfredfernandes there is no side placement in the studio. Studio width starts at 45 and goes up. It's all in the video.
This is amazing since I determined this about five years ago when designing my theater. As an engineer my analysis was the same as yours and I moved my six Atmos/ceiling speakers much closer together to maintain separation from my surrounds. In a small room I would also recommend acoustic panels higher on the side walls to absorb reflected sound from the Atmos/ceiling speakers.
I am now a subscriber. Keep up the excellent, technically sound work!!
Thanks and yep you wanna pay attention to the atmos speakers reflection points as well. Thanks for Subscribing!
I spent several hours moving my top speakers following the given formula and... IT TOTALLY WORKED! I had been missing out FOR YEARS. What a shame that was. But not anymore. I'm glad the TH-cam algorithm suggested this video.
Same here. What a difference.
I’m having a hard time following this. Around 22 mins you have an image up and I cannot tell which way the room is oriented, where would the TV be in this room? It sounds like the way you are talking the left of the image is the back of the room and the right is the front of the room. However the image looks more like the top of the image is the front of the room making the speakers on the left and right the side surrounds. So the 30 degrees is that left to right as you look at the tv or front to back (I understand that 30 degrees will alter based on base layer elevation)? Having watched many of your videos now, I think it is both (30 deg in front and 30 deg to the side) if the elevation is the same on side and rear surrounds in a 7.1.4 setup. On your recommendation I’ve imported the RSL C34E mkii to help, with getting the best sound. They seem to be the shallowest angled speaker I can find as I don’t want to loose to much ceiling hight with the false ceiling I’m putting in, in front of my sound dampening layer.
It may take a few times to sink in but it's explained when we first look this direction that this is looking back to front
and I point out the screen. Just take your time and don't skip and it'll make sense. It is a lot of information .
@@hometheatergurus thank you, in terms of front to back is that a similar angle ? Are you looking at say 60 degrees (from horizontal) if say the bed layer is 15 degrees?
I just want to say thank you from New Zealand! We set up our Denon X8500HA today with B&W CCM684 Atmos speakers based on this layout and it’s fn awesome! Thank you for stopping us making a huge mistake by following the Dolby layout. Subscribed!!
Thanks SC! Glad I was able to help make your room awesome!
Huge thanks for this one, I have no idea what I'd have done without this. Googling "speaker placement" is just chaos, but this layed everything out perfectly.
Paired with episode 49, I think I'm pretty much set for 7.3.4! Not to mention how helpful the REW tutorial was for those 3 subs.
Awesome. I'm glad the you've found the content helpful!
I've continued to come back to this video for nearly a year in anticipation of placing all my speaker positionings /angles. Using a digital angle finder with a laser to peg all my placements in line with this video has been a massive help and also super fun to do with my sons. Thank you again for this!
Awesome! Check out ep 49 and you won't need anything but a tape measure.
I just finished my 9.2.6 dedicated theater and followed Steve's recommendation to a tee: all speakers aimed at MLP, L/R at 60 degree spread, Atoms speakers with built-in 15 degree baffle placed at 60-degree spread, acoustic treatments per Anthony Grimani.
I'm still calibrating and tweaking, the room already sounds fantastic. Atmos content is tremendously improved and much more discernable over my previous wider layout.
I have low ceiling height at around 7.5' and the Atmos speakers are only 5' apart to achieve the 60-degree spread at ear level. Probably don't need the 2 middle speakers, but I had them and might as well use it.
Don't be afraid to group and aim your Atmos speakers closer to MLP, trust and follow the angles and you'll be very happy.
Thanks for all the knowledge Steve, keep the videos coming 👍
Yeah it's crazy how huge the difference is. Thanks for watching!
Yep, this is exactly how I figured my setup a couple of years ago and haven't changed it since.
I applied this direction and moved my Atmos speakers and it was a GAMECHANGER for my theatre!
Awesome Jay, yeah when I say game changer in the title isn't click bait, it's reality!
I knew Dolby was careless with their PDF for home setup. Fortunately there's always people with common sense who fix those things, such as the HT Gurus!
Thanks Joe!!!!
I would love to see both you and Techno Dad blindfolded and then placed into Atmos setups, one set up the way you believe sounds best and one set up the way Channa believes sounds best. Then after listening to each setup blindly I wonder if you each could pick out which room you were in.
It'll never happen. I'd love to see the "pros" do blindfolded speaker challenges and find the difference between a $500 floorstanding speaker compared to a $5000 one.
A smaller room would possibly sound the same if it was the same angles. A larger room? No comparison
@@jerry4012 the speaker cost isn't as big a factor as proper placement and room acoustics. You can easily destroy a very expensive system with a cheaper system better setup.
See the feedback on the avs thread from those coming from heights and even tops too far out. It wouldn't even be a competition honestly. The general feeling is it's like hearing atmos for the first time.
And i stopped adding feedback months ago and there's 3x what you see here. Plus it's not like we haven't tested heights but if we want to hear what the studio heard, we can't have speakers no where near where they did when they mixed the content. the VOG exists for a reason which is the huge gap heights leave above you so even formats that use heights understand you need an actual speaker above you to fix the issue.
Here's the AVS link.
www.avsforum.com/threads/dolby-atmos-setup-mistakes-many-seem-to-make.3238531/
We have not had one single person move from heights to "properly placed tops" and not be WOWed. You can't compare compromised tops with poor placement and or poor aiming and compare them to another layout and claim one is better. Both must be ideally setup unless you can't in your space but that just makes it better for your space. The problem is there's so many poorly setup atmos systems so in such cases yeah of course setting them to heights is likely better as you never really heard atmos as intended due the layout issues.
Here's a link to an interview from an actual Atmos studio engineer for Hollywood. They go over placement in the studio and how to recreate that in your room and yeah , they discuss those using heights and the issues with that when it comes to atmos. In the end do what sounds good to you but before anyone discredits atmos, do your self a favor and place them per ep 49. You will not go back. th-cam.com/video/ZyoXdgcmOa0/w-d-xo.html
All techno dad theory is base on the Atmos program when you set sound.
Becouse that program makes you set the audio in a cubical room, according to him you need speakers on the top of the room to make a cube with your speakers.
No sense. He doesn't talk about angles at all, when that is the main thing.
It's not the same to have a 6,5 feet ceiling than a 10 feet ceiling.
What guru is saying have total sense. You need to separate speakers one from another. Atmos need two layers. Ear level and over head. When you set your speakers in a very close angles (like techo dad) your ears can't differenciate if the sound is coming from over you or in front of you. I'm on the limit of the 45° and sometimes I feel the sound coming from in front of me. I pause the film, rewind, stand up and get my ear in the Atmos speaker and then in my frontal speaker. Sound was coming from the top, and I wasn't sure.
It's a pitty but I made holes in my ceiling so now I can't change to 55°. I wish I would find this guy before.
If you follow techo dad, he has the cinema in the living room, and he tries to have a cool style, so I guess what he wants is to keep the style, and he try to convince himself (and others) than high speakers are the best for Atmos. I'm sorry, it's not.
If techo and guru make a Blidy test, Both could feel in the first Atmos scene with set up is which. It's really obvious when you have listening ceiling and high speakers at home.
This video just saved may ass before I started cutting holes!!! My gut told me that the speakers needed to be closer in to the main center position, as well as angled, but all the diagrams, and even ppl on the forums kept saying to keep the ATMOS outside of the seating area (basically aligning with the mains), and firing down straight down. Thank you for your advice, and detailed information on possible speaker locations for my room dimensions.
Glad you watched it in time. You have to be very careful where you get information as I'm sure you've found out. We do have a Facebook page if have any future questions.
Forums have a lot of broscience.
Don’t listen to much to the people that aren’t engineers for Dolby.
So just to be clear - the target ideal degrees for all speaker placements is the foundation for all-things acoustically aligned related to where said channels will dimensionally end up?
I feel like using multiple lasers that also show degrees, from listing position would make an install super efficient. Point being if you follow the acoustical placement map / cadence of degrees per channel from listening, the flow to physical placements in the room would be butter….
Laser measurements for speaker placements is used in the majority of high end home cinema's.
Yes if done correctly everything should flow like a hot knife through butter!
Assuming it's a good or great Atmos mix on the 4K blu ray disc of course haha.
Currently mid placements, found a good digital angle finder with laser. This has been incredibly fun.@@C--A
Thank you! This is probably the best speaker placement video I've ever seen.
I'm moving from a 5.1 to 7.2.4 setup and my test placements based on the Dolby pdf have been disappointing so far.
I'm going to go back to the drawing board and come up with new placements based on your video.
I'm confident it's going to sound significantly better based on your information.
Good stuff. Always explaining well enough for people like me to understand👍 Getting real close to completing the room you designed. Thanks so much!
Thanks Justin!
Great video. What might help when you are explaining the difference between the angles is to point out that they are based on a half sphere and not a rectangle. Which is why accoustic alignment and physical alignment locations differ.
Great suggestion!
The difference at 12:40 comes from the different layouts (equidistant and orthogonal), but in the Dolby Atmos Home Entertainment Studio pdf from 2021 (downloaded directly from Dolby) it looks there are different values again than in your pdf…
So my take away from this is that the Surround and ATMOS speakers should be equidistance (angle degrees) from each other in the cross section. My only question is about calculating the perceived height of angled in ceiling surround speakers. I have a 16 ft wide room with a 10 ft ceiling, but I've placed my AIC surround speakers in a one foot soffit around the edge of the room. Do I use the physical location or perceived speaker location - maybe a foot lower.
See ep 49. I have quick formula to help you place them.. The same formula can be used for distance forward and back and apart.
Some HT guys are only advisors ......... this guy has truly earned the title Guru.............. I have always copied commercial cinema in my home HT setups and this video is the "Chef's Kiss" confirmation video that speakers need separation to breathe actual atmosphere into your atmos setup
haha.. Thanks Ian. Yes it seems we could follow the studio or even cinema and have better sound that using the guide made for the home.
This makes so much sense. I knew this intiutivly, and have tried to explain to my friends with limited success🙊
Now I can show them😊
Glad I was able to help...:)
@@hometheatergurus
I shared this video on a facbook group, and helped someone who was about to place atmos speakers into the roof😊
Well I fell “victim” to the dolby specs and can vouch for everything that was said about the atmos being….meh…after setting up speakers per their pdf. Now after watching this and previous videos of yours, I have moved my Atmos speakers closer and all I have to say is what’s been said time and time again…is just wow! 🤯 Thank you very much for the information 🫵🏻👍🏻
It’s the little things that have BIG impacts in this hobby.
That's awesome Nate! You're finally hearing Atmos!!!!!!!
Low and behold...night and day. Well done sir, ty
7.1.4 here, I had to pull my front heights about 3' forward, and my rears heights about 1.5' closer. Wow. Big diff. Makes sense. Visually I now have a bubble.
Over the front mains is stupid. Damn it!
I thought it was great before....now I have to watch everything again....again. lol
That's AWESOME! And the kicker is you can have a budget system that sounds vastly better than a high end expensive one all because of issues like this!
So, does toeing in all the speakers to the MLP and then setting them to the recommended angles provided result in a better experience?
Great content as always. Every time I watch your videos I feel like I'm stealing. Thanks for putting these out.
Ha.. Yeah steal away. It's better than seeing people wasting money.
I appreciate your content so much. I wish I'd have found your content before I built my theater room. Or had you as my designer. I screwed up and put the overheads as wide as the mains. I had to buy the Focal ICLR5's to help make up for that. At least I can toe in the mid and tweeter to compensate.
Thanks! Yeah toeing in will definitely help at least get stronger spatial cues.
Again an wonderful video on clarifying the doubts I had for the past many years.😄
Thanks Rajith!
Hi! How can I calculate the surround height degree?
Thank you
Great video great informations.
Now I’m thinking about why not using 60 degrees for every angle with the Atmos speakers. 60 from left to right with the surrounds (-8 degrees lift) and 60 from front to behind with and without surround backs @ 5.2.x bed layer.
Another great video.
I installed my Atmos speakers only a day or two before your 'Atmos mistakes' video. Unfortunately I used the dotted lines in the Dolby guide. I definitely need to move my Atmos speakers and check out the difference.
I plan to build angled boxes for my in-ceiling speakers to get them pointing at my MLP.
I have shared your videos multiple times on the HTE group to help people get their speakers installed right the first time.
Keep up the good work 👍
Thanks Chris! Those dang dotted lines have gotten a lot of people and even a ton on installers.
Yes, very frustrating, especially since common sense always told me to put atmos more overhead! There is an obstruction overhead for me anyway but thats some bad info out there. Appreciate the clean-up. Time to move some brackets and obstructions.
I've always hated the dotted line PDF. I imagine I'm going to be sat in a 3D sphere of sound, the diameter of which is determined by the front of my Centre speaker. The other speakers are then placed at the appropriate angles with their fronts attached to the sphere pointing inwards to the listening position. In reality rooms have boundaries so you have to bring some speakers in closer to fit but just maintain the same angles as if they were still on the imaginary sphere.
Exactly, it's all about the angles. I know people professionally trained to line up with the dotted lines. Someone from Dolby should have said something long ago as even in their home pdf they state what those are for (.5-.7).
2.0.2 setup. 8 ft ceiling. Where should my atmos speakers be? Directly over top of my listing position? Or 45degrees behind me? Or 45degrees in front?
Please help.
Check out the video as it will answer that for you. We look at it from a side view as well.
This is why I stick to what’s best and not bother what other people say cause most of the time peoples ideas can be a mistake
Yep in the end we all just want great sound.
@@hometheatergurus exactly I went with a 7.2 system didn’t work well in my space but when I switched the configuration to 5.2.2 much better results my next upgrade is a 5.2.4 with the onkyo RZ50
Great video, I know with thr Atmos Mistakes video, I was not happy as I spent a lot of time measuring amd running speaker wire only to be unhappy with the sound based on what Dolby told me. This video makes even more sense, but puts a new winter project on my list to not only relocate and change my wiring, but now I have to fix the 4 big holes in my ceiling.
Dolby should be a smart enough company to develop a simple program where people can input thr required measurements and they should spit out the exact locationa of all of your speakers as well as tolerance areas. Ot is ridiculous that Dolby creates something amd based om tjeor guidance, 90% of their customers are not set up correctly
Thanks and I Cant disagree with that!
Excellent! What program do you use to do the layouts?
Thanks. I design in VISIO.
Great input! But it left me with some questions.
My basement is 20’W by 35’L. However there is a supporting post 12’ from (left) side wall where I hung my right surround. My left surround is on the (left) side wall, both at 15 degrees higher from listening position. The TV is 11’ from the listening position. My ceiling is low at 7’. My LCR towers are 3’3” tall. My 2 questions-
Can I keep the C centered just below the TV?
What angles should I place them all for a good 5.1.2?
At around 10:20 in the video there is a picture of overhead speaker placement are those angles still in play? You never come back to the overhead view when talking about height. You give angles ~55-60 degrees when seen from the back, but you never show where those speakers are from the top view? If for example they are 55 degrees from the LR side speakers you calculate the distance from center - that is a line in the ceiling but you never say where on that line they should be front to back... or did I miss it? Can you elaborate on that?
you can use the same tolerances for width as well. WE touched on it in the previous video where we looked at the studio guide. I wish I had clarified it in this one as well.
Hey there, your videos are spot-on, thanks for taking the time to share them with us. Quick question: your video recommends a 55-degree angle, but when I use my phone and a laser to mark the front high position at 55 degrees, it creates a circular pattern on the ceiling. Is this the correct layout? Or you mean mark a line from the A measurement to the ceiling and then create a point at 55 degrees? but If so, then the two fronts are no longer at a 55-degree angle from the listening position. Could you talk on instructions using degree measurements instead of meters from the A position? I saw a message in the description box, i think this may be what i am trying to say "when you are explaining the difference between the angles is to point out that they are based on a half sphere and not a rectangle. Which is why acoustic alignment and physical alignment locations differ." thank you so much answering this question . i have recently become a subscriber . this info is to good to miss. cheers
Thanks for subscribing.
Yep, the actual speaker is further than 55 once spread but that is irrelevant as that is not how we determine placement. Just follow the video and you'll be good to go. You can also see ep 49 for a reference I made so you can find the placement in a few minutes.
@@hometheatergurus Hey buddy, I wanted to express my gratitude for your response and your channel. You're putting in a lot of effort, not just in creating great videos, but also revealing what's possible with the equipment most of us already have. It feels like you're sharing secrets that not many people know about, and I & the HT community appreciate that.
Really enjoyed it! Need to change my set up but I just have a 5.1.2 not a 5.1.4, don't know if that changes a lot what you are explaining here. Thanks!
@HomeTheaterGurus Great video but I’m struggling to understand one aspect of the horizontal placement when looking at the room towards the screen. Your “fixed” angles have the speakers at 60*, which makes them closer together than at least half the width of the room, which would be 7 feet. You have them a tad under 6 feet. Isn’t this out of spec?
I'm having some serious comprehension problems. First, my biggest issue is following what planes your angles are coming from. I think if I drew a line from one side of the room and through my ears and then rotate that line 60 degrees from the center of my head I would get the location for side to side. But I'm missing where you get the front and back angles. It looks like you get it from going perpendicular to the first line but I can't get the angles to intersect. Or am I suppose to just focus on the measurements themselves? But doing so is resulting in some rather odd angles. The speakers I want to use are 4 Elac Debut IC-DT61-W which have a 30 degree angle. So that's 3 angles I'm trying to get to intersect in sketchup. I think I'm going to make a 30 degree cone that goes from a point and extends from my ears up to my ceiling. I'm going to assume the Elacs are 30 degrees from the plane of the ceiling. Right now if I come 30 degrees from my head and then rotate the angled line 30 degrees I'm ending up on my wall. What if I were to draw a line from my front speaker to my head (25 degree angle) and then rotate that upwards to 60? I think I'm inverting my angles.... I'm doing 30 when I should be doing 60? So 60 degrees from my head would be 30 from the ceiling? An hour ago I would have sworn I was smart.
After doing that all 4 speakers are 40" apart from the centers. My ceiling is only 7'8" so that may be right but it's just so different than any diagram I've seen. Maybe doing it from the floor will give a bit more distance which might be a good compromise considering there will usually be 3 people in line watching movies.
Thank you for all your insightful videos. I have watched all of your videos on correct atmos placement.
In your later videos, your recommendations for Top Fronts and Top Rears has been modified from 45 degrees to 35 degrees from vertical sitting position. I definitely understand your reasoning and agree this would be optimum.
In your 3rd video, you discuss 5.1.4 setup speaker placement using the front heights at 45 degrees and top middles at 90 degrees from the floor. Is this still your recommendation? Or do you feel these angles should be adjusted as well? I hope you have time to comment, but if you would prefer a direct consultation, please let me know!
Top fronts and top middle is not a supported placement for atmos.
It's top front and top rear. With 45 and 135 degrees being the angles specified for 4 atmos.
www.dolby.com/siteassets/about/support/guide/setup-guides/5.1.4-overhead-speaker-placement/5_1_4_overhead_pov.jpg?width=1440&quality=80
So my bedroom is 10ftw by12ftd and I’m trying to figure out how far to spread my rear speakers from my Samsung q930d soundbar my bed is facing the depth way so I never had a soundbar so I don’t know how far to mount them apart
Great video. I’m going to look at my atmos placement when I get some time. Thank you.
Thanks and you're welcome!
How to place the inwall LCR if you can't tow them in to the main listening position. Is it better to place them as close as possible. I have a 120 inch screen. 14 ft wall wide wall with 9ft ceiling height.
Hey Rock, I have a video on inwall vs in room speakers so check that out. You do want toe in just like you do for in room mains and same thing happens, you're aiming their dispersion. Its not always possible but you do need to understand the issues.
@@hometheatergurus yeah I saw that video. Was really informative. The issue is there is a door on one side of the screen. So not possible to tow them in with false wall.
Should front heights be aligned with the L/R if they are mounted on the front wall?
Yeah I shot this one 2x and had that added but didn't do it the 2nd time. They're on the front wall so will be about the same distance from you as the mains, so the same distance apart will be very close to the same angle. So that is why they would be directly above the mains.
Interesting video. I have an Atmos/Auro 3D hybrid setup, where the ceiling speakers are around 35° front/back and left/right. Kind of the opposite of what this video is suggesting! And unfortunately moving the speakers isn’t really an option as I’ve got acoustic drop ceiling tiles with holes I’ve drilled thru them for the speakers, plus I’m limited because I have to mount them to the joists. However, I’m happy with how it sounds (~13’ wide, 24’ long, 7’10” ceiling), and I tend to prefer playing Atmos tracks with the Auro decoder (Auromatic). Now I understand why the Auro-ified mix sounds better with my speaker layout!
Yep, with a layout like that you're using the right upmixer.
I love your videos and you are Full of knowledge it's obvious but I loose myself with all the videos trying to figure out properly the placement and angle for everything soon will build my home theater room
Hey Dave, If you need help my contact info is in the description. I actually design HTs for a living.
Good work Steve, it's good watching this, as there is just to much conflicting information out there and it's pretty reassuring of how mine are. I went one step further with my Atmos speaker's, as my bed layer rear's & side's are Accusound REF 8.6XD bookshelf, I bought matching speaker's for my 4 Atmos, I'm a boilermaker and made hanger bracket's, to ceiling mount the Atmos, that in my design, they let my toe in and angle down at my ear, of which I used a laser to align, I hear my atmos with such clarity it's awesome.
Thanks Stephen. Sounds like a perfect setup!
Such a great video. I’ve watch it countless times trying to get the angles correct on my new room. You said at 9:01 if you go less than 125 with rears you will be close to getting out of tolerance. My bed layer is only 16 degrees up to account for risers, but I would be pushing my atmos out of tolerance if I try and keep a separation of 50-60 degrees. If my rear atmos is at 125 and bed layer is up 16 degrees that’s only 44 degrees of separation. I assume you start to sound bad if the atmos are 65 or even 70 degrees off bed level?
Awesome video. I have my atmos mounted on side wall since my 8ft cieling is slightly angled due to loft. I seriously wondered how much im missing out on if my heights were directly overhead. I still get good atmos, but i worried about insufficient separation from sides. My room limits my ability to get perfect placement. But good to know i can improve someday. Thanks for video.
Thanks Chris. Sometimes we have to compromise it's just important to know when we are compromising.
Great explanation, very detailed. On Atmos subject I would only add to get speakers which dig low not to overload lfe too much - or even add smaller subs to them - will result in clearer sound especially when a lot action is going on.
See our video on subs, bass management etc. You do need some serious subs as LFE is demanding especially with bass management added but who doesn't like Powerful subs..:)
@@hometheatergurus powerful sun is one thing for sure but dynamic range drops with each channel added to LFE - will sound muddier, less clarity
Thank you so much. My brain still has a hard time seeing this in 2D. A 3D model or better yet, augmented reality model would really help hammer your point home! So you’re saying in most cases (depends on ceiling height) the top atmos speakers should be much further in than your mains not in a direct line between your mains and you surrounds right?
Correct. They'd only be in line and acoustically aligned if they were the same distance from you as the mains. So a very tall ceiling.
When I look at the Dolby PDF, the Studio PDF, the Dolby studio design tool, and the Audio Advice room builder, they all suggest the same thing. Atmos speakers in line with the L and R. Are you suggesting I ignore all of that and make the spread of the height speaks narrower? 60 degrees up from the side surround would make the height speakers about 5 feet apart in a 16 foot wide room. Is that what you are suggesting?
It's covered in the video. The stuido doesn't recommend in line with mains nor does the home other than the diagrams that lkeokw confused. It's covered in the video.
@@hometheatergurus The studio design tool placed the height speakers in line with the mains left and right. My room is 16' wide, 24' deep, and 11' high. Seating position is 15' from the front. The Audio Advice planner must use the same calculations as the studio design tool because its results were nearly identical to the Dolby Studio Design tool. Both of those happen to look like the Dolby home PDF.
@SoCalVipers it can happen if the mains and ceiling are a similar distance away from the mlp. This is discussed in the video. I also know the guys at audio advice and their tool now sets atmos at an angle not in line. However as mentioned above and in the video it can happen in some cases but they're at an angle and not blindly thrown up in line.
This is all discussed. Watch the video if you wanna dive into each pdf.
@@hometheatergurus Thanks for the reply. Do you think I should go strictly on the studio tool recommendations, or make the height spread a little narrower?
@@SoCalVipers see ep 49
Steve, 100% agree with you on speaker positions! I have often thought about the audio mixing engineer and what he/she hears during their work. As I was wide awake at 2:30 this morning I was thinking about this exact information you have presented this morning. Thank you AGAIN! It only makes sense to mimic the studio speaker layout! To put this in perspective - if someone handed you a birdhouse and wanted an exact copy, wouldn't a wise builder make an exact copy? Okay, so to reproduce the audio image the sound engineer made we must build the same "birdhouse". Right?
So, based on the info you provided her I am right now going to draw out my room, do the math and reposition my speakers ASAP.
Now the BIG question! Where the hell do we get/buy top quality, authentic, calibrated demo/testing, set-up disks or files?
I know "Techno Dad" is one the right track with the his self mixed FREE Atmos demo file. It proved to me my system sucks at the moment. I sure hope he makes more because I will be buying them!!!
Thank you Mr. Guru! All the very best to you and yours, Kevin
My current setup is FH and TM since my couch is more toward the rear wall. Technodads latest sample with the plane flying overhead made me realize that sounds were not panning front to back very well. I’m going to move my Atmos using the specs from this video but push the TM further back maybe 105-110 so that it’s closer to the TR spec and then probably be settled.
Yep you got it. My next video is actually on where to get free Demo material.
@@jayc5695 Good plan!
@@hometheatergurus You're AWESOME! Thanks! Oh - BTW those of us that are Panasonic BD player owners cannot play a lot demos via USB for some reason. However, everything I am lucky enough to have does play through my Xbox One X got fine. I have found so many files that claim to be perfect Atmos demos, are not anything more than all speakers mono.
@@hometheatergurus Steve, for those of us on a 5.1.2 system, where do you recommend we mount the ceiling speakers? Currently, I'm in the "top front" position. Thanks in advance!
I cannot really follwow the argumentation on low separation. 1. you have only 30 degree between center and l/r and that´s no issue for separatin. 2. auro 3d only recommends 30 degree and is way more natural then sounds coming from overhead
I was kind of wondering a bit about height speakers too, bc I plan to have the All for One set up. Auro-3D spec wants your front heights above your L/R mains and that really makes sense. I think the problem with Atmos is the mixing, after all.
If you think about it, heights are roughly the same distance from you as the mains (usually) , so if they're directly above the mains , they'll also be roughly the same angle as the mains as well so yes, they'll go directly above and be fine and acoustically within a few degrees of the mains.
The Atmos are usually much closer to you than the Mains and Heights so that's the reason we can't use the same width , we want the same angle so it's acoustically aligned.
Steve - Thanks for your detailed explanations. I am new to this, so learnt a lot. I agree with your explanations regarding angles vs dimensions and your thoughts on acoustic alignment. This now raises some questions for me. Assuming the 8 foot ceiling height and a 30 degree acoustic alignment from your examples. From my thinking and please help me if I have something wrong - the 2ft 10in for a 60 degree only applies when the Atmos is directly overhead i.e. the center Atmos in a x.x.6 setup. For the two Atmos in front and two at the back, these would need to be further separated as they are moved away from the center speaker to keep the 30 degree acoustic alignment. So for a 45 degree front to back, the side to side has to be 50 to 51 degrees up so that the angle at the MLP is 30 degrees. This is because the sides of the triangle get longer as the speaker move away from overhead and so the angle distance between these speaker and mid point has to get bigger to keep the angle at the ear/MLP at 30. Here the "sides" are the "line from the speaker" to the MLP and from the "side to side center" between the speakers - lines directly to the ear/MLP from these points. True also for the point (on the ceiling) above MLP. So it seems for a 45 degree front to back placement and 5 foot from MLP to ceiling, the center Atmos will be at 60 up from the sides but the front and back speakers will be 50 degrees up from the side (I am assuming that all floor speakers are at MLP ear level to keep this simple). So it seems to be that if one would want to keep acoustic alignment at 30 degrees then one would set up the front to back first and then calculate the side to side dimension so that the angle at the MLP is 30 degrees. Since Atmos spec allows a range this calculated side to side angle should be within spec. The varying side to side separation would not be a problem in Cinema since the line of speakers means there is a speaker overhead for for each row; don't have that luxury in Home Theatre (not also sure in the Studio setting). What could I be missing here or does this make sense? [I am ignoring speaker off center considerations which could diminish audio experience in order to understand the acoustic alignment from audio object placement; also angled/adjustable speakers could help]
Think of it like the top front and top rear are a pair and the phantom image between them is what we are spreading.
You're correct about the top front and top rear when not the same distance forward, although to not make it so confusing most would just throw in the towel we just spread them the same. Normally top front and top rear are so close in distance from the mlp it's not at all audible if the angle changes slightly.
@@hometheatergurus
Thanks for your response. True - not necessary to complicate - mainly checking my understanding.
@@RS-hb7nt To have come to that conclusion on your own means you've got a very good grasp on it. If all were acoustically at 55 or all at 60 , A 6 atmos setup would smiley face inward. I almost covered that once but I think it would cause way more confusion than doing good and it's not important enough to cause that pain..:)
Well done! - This all makes perfect sense. I get it.
Thanks Garry!
I get a pair of new Atmos (RP500SA) speakers tomorrow and since I don't want to bouncy-house them, I'll put them on the wall, probably close to the ceiling and as near to my mains as possible (I'd rather drill into studs than have to use a drywall anchor). I can't wait to hear how they sound! I currently have a 7.1 system (with my mains bi-amped and the surrounds encasing my seat) and have the speakers hooked up to a Denon AVR-X4700, but if I could find room for my old sub I might try to fit it in, too. Since my chair is against the back wall, I think the 2 Atmos speakers on the front is as good as I can achieve as a practical application...besides, I don't want to spend any more money at this time :)
Wall placement for atmos speakers are a solution in selected cases.
Do not just randomly place them anywhere. They go just in front of you usually on ceiling. With a spacing of 45-55 degrees elevation either side of you.
@@HTadd1ct There was no chance of me cutting holes in the ceiling (not my house until I inherit). Besides, a small bedroom isn't the best place for a home theater. I mounted them on the wall within a couple inches from the ceiling, almost directly above my mains (bi-amped Klipsch RP-600Miis). When I set them up in the receiver, I found out through trial and error that they were classified as "heights" rather than Atmos modules because of their location. I did watch the first movie with them on top of the speakers as bounc-ys and them hung them up. Like I saw in some videos, Atmos content varies widely among movies. Neat thing is, setting the receiver to Neural-X (or maybe others) activates the heights if Pure doesn't do it by itself (I noticed that the receiver decodes in that mode automatically sometimes). I'd love 2 more heights, but as my one chair is against the back wall, I think I have it "as good as it gets" (to use a movie line and title). The Ready Player One and Apocalypse now were pretty cool as was The Fifth Element.
@@garyausten5939 you clearly haven't got the message do you.
I will tell you this. Bedrooms are often more suitable for home theaters due to the enclosed room. This is where my atmos system is.
If you don't get the message that 2 atmos speakers go just in front of you at a 45 to 55 degree elevation side to side whether on wall or ceiling based. You are better off dropping it.
Second of all you never sit on any walls. This is another thing people fail to get the message.
I'll offer you this opportunity to do more planing or you can leave this hobby altogether.
If you care about this hobby. You will actually try my ideas before you reject them.
Why do you think this youtuber has published videos on how to get the correct atmos setup.
He cares deeply and even I've learned a thing or two.
Stop wasting your time and effort only to make bullshit excuses. I can do wall mounted atmos in my bedroom as that's where the angles end up.
Use a protractor to figure it out before you place speakers anywhere you feel like.
I dont respond well to bullshit excuses or people who make no effort to learn. If I can do ceiling speakers. You can too.
When you say "the atmos improved" after moving the heights in, what does that mean? Better separation? Better quality? What should I listen for?
Where can I find the Dolby studio guidance you mentioned?
I'll add it to the description.
dolby.my.salesforce.com/sfc/p/#700000009YuG/a/4u000000lFHc/UYA0IZeD632SUXVmEPmUcr.wIuhpHp6Q7bVSl4LrbUQ
LOL, I started out with my speakers on the wall at around 30 degrees, then I watched your ATMOS mistakes video and moved them to 45 degrees and it did make a huge difference, but now your saying to move them to 60 degrees, my wife is going to be mad LOL.
Ohh damn. That sucks. If you watched the mistakes video I do suggest 55 and explain pretty heavily why. That is still my go to which I mention in this video as well. We're just showing how to get acoustically in line with mains at 30 and showing the home plf issues. This is time stamped to that section of the ATmos mistakes video. th-cam.com/video/K-rAhyrZCoA/w-d-xo.html
at 9:05 you mention that 125 is the minimum tolerance. could you please elaborate. I tried to follow all these other instructions to a tee, but there is a slanted wall leading up to my ceiling. I ended up putting the rear ceiling speakers as far back as I could. This ends up being about 3 feet behind the main listening position, which is 12.5 feet from the screen and 6 feet from the front ceiling speakers. My front speakers are listening height of 3 feet off the ground, and my rears at ~5 feet above the ground (2 feet above listening position) 9 feet behind the. I think that means by rear speakers then are at 115 degrees, which is below your minimum of 125 if im understanding it right, but didn't fully catch what's going to mean for my sound (and not sure if interpreted your comment correctly).
Should surrounds be directional or flat on the wall firing into the room?
Good channel. Subscribed!
Thanks William!
What would be the perfect angles if there is only space for one pair of overhead speakers? Got my speakers (7.2) in the living room with a ceiling in the back for now and I’m going to upgrade to Atmos in September when my new AV Receiver gets delivered.
What’s a good starting point to set my crossovers at?
The best info out there as always. Can you please make a video on how to properly design that when you only have the possibility to do 5.1.2, and with a coach against the wall? I mean, a lot of people do not have the space to do 7.1.4. Many of us trying to squeeze the theater in our flats while still getting a bit of Atmos at least :) Thank you so much anyway. Priceless info.
P.S. What if the speakers sound better if listened to slightly off-access? Like Emotiva T2+ for example, that I want to use for LCR in my future dedicated HT? Should I also toe them in?
Also 5.x.4 with couch against the wall! Through my testing I think TF & TR are the best for panning front to back but with a couch on the wall-technically the TR end up on the back wall to be 125 minimum tolerance. So to stay in tolerance FH & TM is the only option but I don’t think the panning is nearly as good since the sound hits middle position and then lingers.
Yes! Please make this video. I'm in the same boat. 5.1.2 Couch is about 1.5ft from wall and less than 9ft from center channel to my head, 8ft ceilings. I can't decide where to put heights.
Look back a few videos, I did a Q&A video on that question.
Top front at 55 degrees (front of bedlayer being 0 degrees). That's AKA 35 degrees forward from directly overhead.
Would be nice to make a video for the realistic, not able to be perfect room, like when the couch is against the back wall...
Do you shift all the speakers to the front and have less at the back/above, or do you divide the angles, or... ?
This is great stuff, well explained and makes logical sense…thanks for putting this out there. Apologies if this has already been asked, but would you still strive to maintain fairly even separation on L/R Atmos and surrounds in low ceiling rooms where, say, a left Atmos speaker at 30 off center ends up to the right of the person sitting in the left seat of a 3-seat setup?
That is something to consider but also realize in the cinema half of the seating is on the "other" side of the atmos. So sure keep that in mind and you can nudge them out just don't let an already compromised side seat sink the entire ship.
The most simple question is how to determine left and right on a surround sound receiver? Left is you facing the screen correct?
Excellent video.
Been mapping out my large living room using your advice.
Curious as to your experience upmixing non Atmos tracks using Auro3D with this layout? I'll need it for audio tracks that are non-Atmos and curious to know if Auro3d will suffer much if at all by using this layout. Cheers.
Is there any free software similar to the one you use to draw the layout with the angles?
This is the best atmos video on youtube. Thanks man. About to build a new theatre and learned a lot from your other video and why my first one didnt work as i would have liked. (I followed the pdf graphic and it sucked)
Thanks! If you need help I actually do home theater layout. My contact info is on the video description.
@hometheatergurus tell ya what, if you're looking for a new topic (you may have actually done one already) consider room correction software. Options, benefits etc. I have the rmc1 but haven't paid the $500 bucks to use dirac.
Are there cheaper options? Is there a way to achieve a similar result without software? Stuff like that
@@personalwatching9312 I have a few on room correction.
I have been deep diving into your videos over the last few weeks. I have started to finish my basement and would like to work into a 5.1.2 system. The space will roughly be 12'w 20L 7'5H. I am a live sound engineer, so really looking to do this right, even with a small space. I have a few I hope simple questions or if you do conversions online via email as well.
1) will a 5.1.2 system be enough to fill the space? or should be 5.1.4?
2) do you work with people to help give out placement in 3d of where speakers should go in space?
I will keep it at that for now. Thank you very much in advance!
Hey Gerben, I do HT design yes and it shows exact placement of every speaker. In a room that size i'd likely do a 9.2.4. My contact info is in the video description if you need it.
The main reason why there are so many discrepancies in Atmos white paper setups is because of Auro-3D's lawsuit years ago.
Atmos for the home used to match Auro-3D's setup to a "T". Dolby was forced to change it after Auro-3D won the suit.
What's most interesting to me in your video is that your layout at 19:17 is exactly how Auro-3D instructs installers to place the front heights, horizontally. i.e. right in line with the front L&R speakers. The same concept is applied to the rear heights. They go right above the side/rear surrounds in what would traditionally be a 5.1 setup. The main difference (and where Dolby had to change their setup) is in the elevation of the height speakers. Auro-3D sticks to what humans can perceptually hear in elevation. We can only spatially accurately hear up to 30 degrees vertically (from the floor). Any angle that's steeper than that and biologically, we cannot accurately pinpoint sound. It's very similar in concept to properly integrated subwoofers.
So, I will disagree with you with most of the this video. We biologically cannot accurately pinpoint sounds when they're panning overhead at that steep of an angle. This is best demonstrated when planes go overhead. I know that's in diffuse field (same as commercial and post-production cinema) and so the analogy isn't perfect. In small-room acoustics, we get close to being able to hear movement above our heads but it still won't be accurate. Following Auro-3D's setup for home to a "T" gives a much better result for Atmos, DTS, and (obviously) Auro-3D. One major difference (besides different mounting points) is using bookshelf-type speakers mounted high on-wall or on-ceiling next to the wall, aimed towards the MLP, and raised so that when standing at the MLP, it's aiming at your head. This angle is a 30 degree mounting point with a 90 degree aiming point. This is basically right at the top of where we can biologically pinpoint sound and will allow for excellent sound stage and imaging between left and right pairs of height speakers. Speakers simply will not image psychoacoustically went mounted on-ceiling or in-ceiling as prescribed in your video. They will give you an affect of something being above you and having a change in volume (giving the tinies amount of perception of movement) but they will not image. That's just biology. So while Dolby's way (and your way) will give you the effect of something above you, it will not throw a soundstage or image as your ear-level speakers do. The only way to get your height speakers to throw a sound stage and image as your ear-level speaker do is to set them at a point to where our brains can accurately track spatial information. i.e. Audo-3D's setup. StormAudio has probably the best white paper instruction sheet for it but the following link is also excellent:
www.grobi.tv/media/pdf/54/36/cf/One-for-all-Setup-Guide_V5-0_englisch_publishigPUdX9hPlgSJ.pdf
I've been doing atmos since it came out. The setup is the same. I also know people thar assisted Dolby in initially implementing atmos for home theater.
The processors can use heights but Dolby atmos has always recommended tops with separation from the bedlayer and tops being of high priority.
@@hometheatergurus I mean, that's totally fine. I just disagree. Clearly your installs work and your clients are happy. No arguement there.
Auro-3D launched the entire immersive audio format as we know it in 2010. They invented in in 2006. Dolby started using height channels first for sure but all it did was use some phase trickery to push the same signal as the fronts into higher mounted channels. Auro came out with discrete, different content to move into those height channels first.
I guess I should've been a bit clearer. Auro release the first immersive audio decoder to send completely different information to height channels. Dolby then came out with Atmos in 2012 that launched their version of it.
But as far as biology goes, I mean.... it's biology. I thoroughly appreciate your videos and your subwoofer video using Harmon Room Mode Calculator completely fixed my bass issues. It's not a personal attack or anything. I just disagree with you on the best way to mount and aim front and rear height channels (and probably side surrounds, haha).
So if I went with 55 degrees and 35 degrees wide that would be ideal for a 5.1.2 Atmos setup?
Thanks for all the GREAT info. I have used this to recalculate my room (and will send some $$ your way via Patreon soon since your channel has been amazing). My room is 21' long with a 10' ceiling and I still feel I need 6 Atmos. Around 9:30 you talk about only needing 4 for most rooms. But, using your calculations here is how my room ends up:
Front LCR = 5° higher than MLP = Front Atmos at 48° from MLP
Real LR = 15° higher than MLP = Rear Atmos at 53° from MLP
Front Atmos to Rear Atmos = 79° = Too much... so I am adding another set at 86° from MLP which makes the space between the Atmos speakers 38°. 🙂
I guess it's the 10' ceiling that is causing this and that a 21' long room with an 8' ceiling might only need 4 Atmos?
I would get the top fronts closer to 55 degrees. Those two speakers will be the most active of the atmos as the front half hemisphere is just more active i mixes. Make sure the rear atmos have the separation needed. You can use the 45 plus 1/2 the rear height which would be around 127 degrees for the top rear. You wouldn't really need top mid but if you have 3 rows and the back rows aren't just overflow you may want to consider catering to them some but don't let them hurt the MLP too much.
Hey Steve. Would you do anything different if only doing two height channels? I currently am set up in a really shallow living room, so the couch is up against the back wall. Bad, I know. But I want to add two height speakers. My surrounds are about 10deg up from the MLP, so my thought is go 50-60 past that for the heights, depending on where my ceiling joists are.
Great video...i appreciated...i have cathedral ceiling so i was already at a disadvantage...but at least they are above and very close inline...i have one more to put up to make 6 overhead...thks
Thanks! It's all about the angles so just sketch it out and see where the angles place them. But if they're close you're likely good to go and it'll sound great.
@@hometheatergurus thks
Wondering about panning from surround backs to rear atmos, same idea here where you would want rear atmos in same acoustic plane as rear atmos? Similar degree of separation between them as well? These are the only pairs I am worried I cannot get in the same acoustic plane because of angled ceiling in the rear and dorm window 1/3rd of the way in the back wall that cuts the angled ceiling out (1.5 story home).
Hey Will, see the video on Atmos that came out a videos after this one. We actually look at the studio and cinema pdf which show us how we should maintain separation when speakers like rears are raised.
How do you place soeakers when using multiple speakers per channel?
Im seting up a 7.1.4 system with 4 side, 2 rear, 2 height (per channel).
The sides are clear but Im not sure how the heights should be placed. In a line (front-back or sideways) or should I do it ”spherically”?
Im thinking of doing it spherically and like 5 deg on either side of the intended ”main angle”. So if the heights should be 55/55 deg I place the two speakers at say 60/45.
Great video! Now I need to pull out the graph paper and ensure I’m set up correctly (which I find a lot of fun).
Thanks MIke!
If all speakers are aligned acoustically, this may fit in theory, but if you listen with the spatial audio, the positioning does not fit. The HRTF function and ASA are also completely ignored for channel separation. With a few changes, it could be even better.
TechnoDad said to put the tops at the ends of your room as heights to better get the sound coming from where it should go. This is true, but without the angle of them being closer to you in the ceiling, you lose much of the overhead height effects. Even though I have 4 heights and 2 ceiling, I really feel like it's not better than my bouncy-house configuration because the angles probably aren't drastic enough.
Follow ep 49 and it'll be like hearing atmos for the first time. Blindly placing speakers on a wall at no known angle isn't something I'd advise. If we want to hear what the studio intended we need to pay attention to their layout. If our layout is nothing like theirs we will not hear what was intended.
@@hometheatergurus yeah, I wish I saw your video sooner. I did watch your one on turning the speaker 90 degrees when for middle top, but regret I didn't get angles down soon enough.
I absolutely love your TH-cam channel. I've learned a lot from watching it and I'm hoping you can assist me with proper placement of my 4 ceiling speakers. My speaker system consists of 4 SVS Ultra Bookshelf speakers (2 for the mains and 2 for the side channels), an SVS Ultra Center speaker, 6 SVS Prime Elevation speakers (4 ceiling mounted for Dolby Atmos and 2 mounted on the back wall for the rear channels) and 2 SVS SB-3000 Subwoofers.
I currently have my Prime Elevation speakers mounted according to Dolby Atmos recommendations. HOWEVER, I feel that they're too close together.
My living room listening area is 14' 5" wide, 13' 10" deep with a 7' 9" ceiling. There's 6' distance between the front L & R speakers
and 15' 5" distance between the side surround speakers (left to right). My 4 Prime Elevation speakers are currently mounted on the ceiling, 6' apart left to right as well as 6' apart front to rear. My seating position is 11' from the television/L.C.R. and about 2' from the back wall. I've already determined that I need to widen the left to right distance of my ceiling speakers an additional 4' (10' apart vs. the current 6'), but I'm unsure if I can relocate the FRONT pair of ceiling more towards the TV. I ultimately would like to mount them just SLIGHTLY in front of the TV and about 10' apart. This would position the rear pair 2' behind the listening position and the front pair almost 11' in front. I'm also mounting them on brackets that will allow me to aim them PRECISELY at my primary listening area. I play all of my movies with Auro-3D upscaling through my YAMAHA AVENTAGE RX-A8A.
So here's my question: will this speaker arrangement give me a better overall listening experience?
I wish to thank you in advance for any suggestions you can offer and for all the "two thumbs up" videos you produce. Have a great day!
Thanks Daniel! See ep 49 and it'll help you quickly see what's ideal. Based on that ceiling height i'd say you're close to ideal but verify with ep49.
0:10 Speaker cables don't matter?
That's another video completely...:)
I have been making a plan for my Home Theater now, and i've created a bubble, where i got a 60 degree gap between all the speakers. its a 7.2.4 setup. Is 60 degree near perfect? angled wise i mean. or does it make a difference that between my 4 atmos speakers and the bedlayer there is a 50 degree gap, or should i aim for keeping that at 60. I got only one row so i wont have to compromise with very much higher rear surrounds. Hope you can confirm my thoughts, that im on a good way. Thanks for the videos man, they are inspirational!
Thanks great video.. Totally solved my ATMOS design problems ... Now the decision what speakers to use for ATMOS. I have some B&W ceiling speakers but wondering if i should get the INCEILING ROTATING SILVER/9 SAT or to save cost i can ceiling mount B&W M1 and angle ??? Many Thanks awesome advice...
It's hard to beat the 9 sat especially when it gets to cross aiming. Hit me up in the email info in the description if you need help of a dealer.
Is there a Dolby Atmos setup disc or file that we can use to test out speaker placements. It might have specific demos to show separation should be heard. A lot of people use smaller atmos speakers so the crossover is set higher than surrounds and LCR. Not ideal using different speakers.
Very interesting and eye opening information. Just curious what software do you use?
Thanks. I use VISIO.
hi, do you prefere the same by using two atmos loudspeakers? And the angle of 80 degree to the front will be maintained?
If you are doing 2 I would do front tops at around 60 degrees from 0 in front of you.
I've got benefit of choosing where I can I place speakers.
I have a 7.2 denon s750h entry level receiver.
With me having only option of 2 atmos speakers which location is best for buck.
Also when I upgrade recievers to say 4 atmos again where should I consider these 4 speakers. For example Top front. Top middle top back? Thanks in advance.
I would do top front at 55-60.
@@hometheatergurus Thanks for fast response. Time to create 2 new Top Front locations. Keep up the great content.
Great video, as always!👍 My only question is whether this applies to front and rear heights as well as top front/middle/rear?
I had that in the video but took it out. As the heights are on the wall and the same distance (roughly) as the mains, they would be above the mains and they'll be roughly the same angle as well as they're roughly the same distance from you.
Wired my 10x20x 8 ft tall room for a 5.1.6. i have been searching for height speakers with threaded inserts so i can hang them on brackets and "aim" them. Really struggling to find them in the $500 per pair range. Only thing i have found are the svs prime elevation which have threaded inserts. Can't help but think that being able to aim the height speakers and direct their energy directly at the listener will make a big difference as compared to speakers being aimed straight down. Keyhole mounts are not an option, Needs to have the threaded insert. Any suggestions would be highly appreciated.
We need a video that shows a tutorial of Anthem ARC Genesis and your thoughts on the Anthem processor
I know, it's on the list I'm just so swamped with room plans and tutorials like that are a beast. Gene actually has some great ones over at audioholics.
Is there any help on how to calculate what the E values are?
See episode 49.
Thanks. That video makes it very easy. :)
Thanks Steve, another excellent video. Your videos are always so helpful to get the most out my dedicated Home Theater room.
Following your suggestions, I relocated my 4 Top Atmos speakers to be 55 degrees above the bed layer speakers (were about 43 degrees). Not a too much work since I'm using 4 bookshelf speakers ceiling mounted on adjustable pipe brackets.
Listened to the Dolby Atmos Demo tracks, nice improvement, looking forward to replaying some of my 4k UHD Atmos movies.
PS. Just finished rewatching Gravity 4k with Atmos track.... awesome, much more engaging now.
Tim👍
Awesome Tim. And yep even a few degrees makes a difference. IMO 45 should be the min. Do you mind if I use this feedback?
@@hometheatergurus No problem
I just plan a new house and a homechinema, which software do you use for planing ? Live in Germany.