I used to be a Protestant, but I converted to Catholicism a decade ago. Long before I became Catholic, I flew from Michigan to Minnesota just to spend a weekend with Greg. I admired him very much and even had a lengthy correspondence with him over email long after that trip. I used to love his books on the topic of the theodicy. However, over time, I really came to understand that Greg's solution doesn't really solve the problem of the theodicy. He thinks free will gets God off the hook, but by being an omniscient God, who can predict with practical certainty (admittedly, technical probability) all the evil that comes to pass, He is responsible. I don't have an answer to the theodicy either, but I do think it eventually comes down to trusting in God's divine providence. In any sort, Greg's hypothesis doesn't hold water. It just adds another link in the infinite regression of explanations.
Hmm... So you think "being able to predict" is equivalent to being responsible for? That's an interesting presupposition, but I don't see how that logically follows. Does that mean every parent is responsible if their child gets hurt after getting a new bicycle? If I have perfect foresight into the possibility of little Jimmy getting hurt, and warn him accordingly to wear kneepads, a helmet, and be alert while riding - how am I still responsible if Jimmy so chooses to be reckless? This could become a discussion of character, too - am I responsible for Jimmy's pain if I created the possibility by giving him the bicycle? I would think intuition says I'm a *good* parent for giving my child the freedom to do something so fun. Isn't it on account of Jimmy's character (i.e. perhaps he's feeling particularly rebellious) that he chooses to ignore my warnings and ends up crashing the bicycle? I hope you're starting to see the parallels to Genesis: God WARNED Adam and Eve of the consequences of eating of the Tree of Good and Evil. Is it God's fault that Adam and Eve ate of it then? I hardly see how we could attribute that to God - that there were warning labels attached indicates to me they could have chosen to obey God and not eat the fruit. From your view, if God is responsible for all evil (which contradicts much of what the NT says about God), then He's setting arbitrary and hypocritical standards for us. There is no sense in moral culpability if every evil that comes to pass is exhaustively pre-settled. To conclude, let me say I entirely respect that you may view these things differently. But I argue a high Christology will also lead us to a similar conclusion as my previous paragraphs; namely, that we cannot attribute these things to God. Let's look at John 9: "As [Jesus] went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" "Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that *the works of God might be displayed* in him." (emphasis added) Now, there's more context around that verse, but I think this little detail is often overlooked. Notice that the works of God are displayed in the blind man's _healing_ - not in his blindness. Jesus couldn't more clearly say it. In fact, through Christ's ministry he repeatedly cites things other than God as responsible for many other ailments (Matthew 8, for example - the demon "legion" is responsible for the madman's, well, madness). To posit that God is responsible equates to saying it is God's will - which explicitly contradicts that Jesus is doing the will of "His father in heaven" by _healing all these people!_
I don't know if Greg's opinion on the matter has changed since you met him or not, but these days Greg holds that God cannot absolutely know the future because He created agents with genuine free will. God knows in advance all possible outcomes, but not which one His creatures will actually bring about. This means while God knew this world was possible, it wasn't certain until we took the path we're currently on.
In this video, the narrator keeps asking if God creates evil but nobody he interviews ever mentions that the classical idea (Augustine/Aquinas) is that evil is nothing but privation of good. Evil has no existence in and of itself. It is just a lack of something that ought to be in the creature but is not.
@NikoR96 Yes, I agree, but I'd want to underline that good and evil are not what they are just because God says so. God says so because that reflects the truth of the matter. Also, the idea I presented above is about the nature of evil (privation of good) not the specific acts that are evil (like murder is evil because it deprives an innocent person of the good of living).
Augustine contradicted himself over and over. The reason you can find truth in him as well as evil is because he was conflicted in himself like no other "Christian" before him, but you can definitely find many after him so conflicted
@@JoshuaLeibrant-dr3xv I don't understand your point. Practically everyone is conflicted in himself and changes views over time. Does that make evil-as-privation false?
@@writereducator Augustine was conflicted in himself to an extreme. He believed the soul was born depraved when it came into contact with the flesh. Is flesh evil? That doesn't make sense if GOD made both
@@JoshuaLeibrant-dr3xv I'd like to see some evidence for your claim. If he said something like that, was it pre or post conversion? Neither takes into account the Catholic claim that evil is a privation.
This encapsulates very neatly why and how I find Christian theology very limiting. I happen to believe that (a) the fundamental contradiction of this reality is the conflict between love/connectedness and survival; and (b) the overriding purpose of this universe is to keep us open and keep us connected, at the possible cost of ending some of our lives early. Choosing between love and survival (or different degrees of love, different degrees of survival) can result in acts that others might label "evil"; for example, eating some other lifeform will seem very evil to that lifeform. Likewise, earthquakes and other adverse events cause us to band together to help people who are affected by them, or to reach out for help ourselves.
Is there free will in Heaven? Is there evil in Heaven? If there is free will but no evil in Heaven, then the two conditions can coexist. If that is the case, what is the point of God putting humans on Earth for only a minuscule amount of time compared to the trillions upon trillions of centuries that would only be the faintest first sliver of eternity?
@ChrisTheHumanist, this is a huge problem for Christianity. Christianity teaches that heaven will exist without sin, pain, death, or sorrow of anykind, but yet we will have free will. So this means that free will could exist without “sin”. So then it would follow that the reason earth has sin, and evil is by Gods design and purpose. Love cannot exist without free will, so free will would have to exist in heaven. Problem is this would make god solely responsible for sin, evil, and death.
In heaven, humans will be recreated without the potential of evil. In this inferior test world, humans have ultimate freedom and can do everything within their power. In heaven, they will have choice but not the exact type of ultimate freedom we have in this world. This is one the rewards (being recreated without the potential of evil) humans gain in this inferior world by showing they are inclined toward good, love, wisdom and justice.
@@CeezGeez Humans without capacity of evil would not be autonomous, independent and truly subjective moral agents. Humans are faced with all possibilities, directions and options in this world and are left to be completely free to choose. I think autonomy, independence and subjectivity are interrelated and interdependent features
@@pjtube1508 so why not give humans free will but also make us impervious to gunshots, knives, physical harm, not having to eat (millions dying of starvation), etc.
Augustine, one of the great revisionists of the Scriptures. I applaud this man. He discovered the original intent of the book of Job and brings praise to the True Living God. There really is no use for the book of Job, if it's true intent is just establiahing that the Lord gives and the Lord take away. But there is a point to the book of job, if it is an ancient book about the fact that there is an adversary out there to destroy you, and that there are things at work behind the scenes that human ignorance, without the intervention of God can never discern.
The problem with the free will argument is do we really have free will? Doesn’t original sin bend us towards evil? We are not born with a morally neutral setting. We have to fight every day against our very nature. If I had free will I’d never be short with my wife. I’d only eat healthy food. I’d never drink to excess. I’d wake up early and go to sleep on time. But according to biology and original sin we can’t just choose to do what we want bc our nature or sin over powers us.
@@jonnyw82 a prisoner has free will, but no power to free himself. Only somebody with a key and legal power, can free him. There are also the effects of the Fall that are in every single human being that is born after Adam. In one of the Peters in the New testament, it is stated that baptism does not put off the filth of the flesh. We still have a free will, but our bodies that we live in, are still corrupted. We also have an unrenewed mind, that has to be renewed. When we start doing that our life becomes better. We have all been born again, sanctified spiritually, and spiritually If any man in Christ a new creature, the old things have passed away the new has come. We have not been born again physically we've only been born again spiritually. The redemption of our bodies comes in the new world. Also, Adam and Eve started out with free will, in absolute Paradise, and somehow they went their own way. They were absolutely perfect, living in perfection with a free will. According to a lot of reformed systematic reasoning, how could they have chosen then to go their own way? According to reformed logic, if you were made perfect, then you can't do what isnt perfect, and yet it still happened. God has free will, and yet He is not even tempted by sin, nor to do evil. And, Adam and Eve were made in the image and likeness of God. They were made absolutely perfect. So, if beings with free will, who are made in the image and likeness of God, and who were absolutely perfect and in perfection, could be drawn to sin against God, then we still today have a free will. Because, what we can learn from having free will, is that it doesn't keep a person from sinning, they just have the ability to son or not. Also, after the fall, when Adam began to have sons, the scripture says that he had a son in his image and likeness(Genesis 5:3) Adam was made in the image and likeness of God, and Adam had free will. So, the scripture tells us subtly, that the continuing human race, still had free will, because free will is a part of being made in the image and likeness of God.
Greg is such a blessing to intelligent, inquisitive Christians everywhere. His brilliance shows the anti-intellectual stereotype of Christians is bull poop. I don't always agree with Greg, but he makes me really think things through.
Yeah sure, it's a good idea to create beings knowing ahead of time their choices will make You personally mad and so vengeful that you end up damming the majority of them in a world of endless pain. Shit planning on God's part.
That isn't true. No human is inherently immortal. No one will live in pain forever. The lost are destroyed immediately in the Lake of Fire, the second death. Only God has immortality (1Tim. 6:16).
Silvio, your latest reply isn't showing up for me to read to whole thing, probably my TH-cam app is not working right. The very last thing I could read was something about near-death experiences. Near death experiences are very unreliable and unverifiable. Also, they are very subjective. Only the Bible, the word of God is the final Authority in all matters of faith and practice.
@@GodsTruthMinistries There are verses than contradict each other in the bible, I know there is the verse you mentioned and 2 Thessalonians 1:9:"They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" but there are verses that contradict it like. Revelation 14:11: "And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name." Revelation 14:10:"they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb." Revelation 22:15:"Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."- One has to be alive to be still outside What do you make of those verses ?
I guess no one ever wants to countenance the idea that God is a duality. Good and Evil. Yet everything around us suggests this. Light and Dark, Birth and Death, Love and Hate etc. This is not my personal belief, but it is one that makes a lot of sense if you think about it.
I just watched a great very thought provoking video of this guy and the next video find out he’s completely insane. The stretching we do to make sense of God is embarrassing
Unfortunately, its the frameworks that are flawed. Hegel still has the best framework, but the west has chosen to omit and completely ignore any of his philosophical and theological contributions to this matter. Greg is just performing futile mental gymnastics in the segment.
The all knowing God knew he was creating evil, Isiaah 45:7 tell you directly, This guy is a great tap dancer, I honestly don't know how the narrator can keep a straight face with some of these people.
The problem with the argument from free will is that one can't choose to be good. "“There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one... for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," According to Christian doctrine there was only one who chose not to be a sinner, and he was god. Nobody else get's that leg up. For the rest of us attempts at righteousness, no matter how determined and sincere, are but poop on God's carpet. Thus there is no free will outside of choosing one's favorite sins. If there were actual free will then the whole Jesus drama would not be needed.
The example Greg uses about bringing a child into the world is perfect for explaining this question and I disagree with the other man that it is not a fair analogy just because we are not omniscient. Why? We don't need to be omniscient to know that when we have sex there is a possibility that we might be creating life, or that the baby that we have chosen to conceive could grow up to be good or evil. We have NO IDEA what kind of a person we are creating or choosing to bring into the world and yet we always hope for the best. We don't know for 100% exactly what that person will be or do, but we intellectually know that there is a risk that they could go wrong and become evil and maybe even hurt people. But we take that risk anyway, and judge God for doing the same with us and with a free-will creation. Another thing is that while the Bible indicates that God knows the end from the beginning, we don't know whether or not this includes just the universe or beyond. What if God decided to create a free will universe but didn't know until the actual big-bang occurred what the actual consequences would be. Once the universe is created of course it is possible for God (being outside of it) to see it all simultaneously. But what about before hand? There is a lot of quantum science to back this up and we can't know for sure, but I'm just saying that alot of the assumptions we make about what God knew and didn't know and when he knew it are not really resolved yet. Maybe it is more similar to when we decide to procreate then even we might imagine.
if god only commands good why create evil in the first place? don't say free will, there isn't a single passage in the bible that would imply we have free will in fact the story of Jonah contradicts it. God tells Jonah go to Ninevah to spread my word, Jonah says no and does his own thing. God gets pissed and punishes him, THAT'S NOT FREE WILL!!!
@@dylankaiser5546 Evil is a test and challenge. His reward and grace is not free. It requires our wills to be willingly given to Him. However its all easier said than done. Evil is the challenge we must overcome to truly win in life and gain His unlimited infinite benevolence.
@@KingSolomon199 I'm done debating with Christians, I have heard every single argument and found a way around it. My problem isn't that free will exists, it's that God is an apathetic douchebag and uses that as an excuse. there's a story called The Good Samaritan, it contradicts the idea that everyone should have to clean up after ourselves. Did the Samaritan beat rob and beat the man? NO HE FUCKING DIDN'T!!! All I ask is that God helps us get through hard times without violating free will.
@@dylankaiser5546 I feel you, but God is secure and self-sufficient. We should want ultimate success for ourselves. The only way for us to do that individually is to look to God to give us this ultimate success in the way that He details how this ultimate success is attained. The way I look at God is He is Uncreated. Thats really the only word that can truly describe Him. There's a very good argument for God being an apathetic douchebag as well as the fact that He is closer to you than your ownself and loves you infinitely more that your own mother our ownself for that matter. Its alson understood that His will will not be circumvented under any circumstance - the fact that He determines the consequences and meaning of all things - big or small. I think that God is extremely harsh (even considering His patience), beyond words, however I don't intend to make that cause me to have an overall unfavorable opinion of Him that will deny my personal ultimate success (for eternity). Even with all the evil that exists, you still have to admit, anything good that you have ever experienced in life - great or small, is directly because of God as well. I just resolve to the fact that the only way you can describe God truly is the word uncreated, although He is the creator of reality, He is not reality itself, He is the creator of reality itself. For me failure (in eternal life) is not an option. Therefore I follow the blueprint that He gives to succeed in this regard.
@@KingSolomon199 I have experienced good but if free will exists why should God have anything to do with it? God has nothing to do with anything, the world can exist without him. I was once christian and I was told that my life would be great... it wasn't. I was miserable every day of my life. I have depression and if God made me the way he wanted then he wanted me to suffer!!! I refuse to believe a perfect omni benevolent being would create a world so horrid, so flawed. Even if we fucked it up that would only mean it was flawed to begin with. I will not worship a monster who has no problem with doing evil. And yes God does admit he creates evil. Isaiah 45:7 2 kings 6:33 amos 3:6 If there is a god he's not what you hold him up to be
All these discussions have one problem to start with: We don´t have the mind of God but depend on everything he was and is revealing about himself, about us and the rest of the universe. Therefore we are in no way qualified to judge God. or to try to capture him with our mind. That is the main problem of atheism. Its method is insufficient. It is foolish. The main point always has been whether we trust God despite the circumstances and despite our experience in life. To trust him that he is good and is love and has the best for those who trust him. This was the decision Adam and Eve had to make and they failed as all of us do. But we can repent by God´s grace. Because God has voluntary agreed to be made the victim of all evil in his Son when he was crucified. And he approved this mission of Jesus Christ by resurrecting him from death. That is the starting point of Christian Faith. Of course we know that this is foolish in the eyes of the world. But we don´t care because we know it is Truth and Life.
Free will is not a great answer. God could have given us free will without also giving humans such a propensity towards evil. We don’t even have pure free will, there’s all sorts of influencing factors.
"God could have created a world that is free of the natural evils..." Yup, he created a billion of them, in the central universe of Havona. And beings there do not have free will. Creating "free will" necessarily created the possibility for evil.
Yup. Straight from the horses mouth: Isaiah 45:7King James Version (KJV) "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
Open-minded Skeptic For every Jew or Christian interviewed in this series, THIS verse should be the FIRST thing they cite. That any of them go through a whole interview without mentioning it is rather sad, in my opinion. But it seems they all want to portray God in the most "lovable" way they can--even if that means ignoring the plainly stated truth. To all who want to "protect" God by trying to hide His true nature: He doesn't need your protection--tell the truth.
They don't read from it because it's not relevant. The above quotation is from the KJV. There's your problem. The Hebrew word being translated most closely reflects 'disaster' in its original context, not 'evil.' It's a message to Israel about blessings and punishments depending on their obedience.
John 1:2-3 says: "This same ["the Word"] was with God in the beginning. All things were made by Him; and nothing that was made was made without Him." Some may say God doesn't "create evil", but that it's the devil, or people, or some other living being. However, that only leads to the question of why God would create a living being that would do evil things. At some point, evil began to happen; and God foreknew its coming (omniscience), and could have prevented it (omnipotence), but He didn't. All the living being evildoers that have ever existed did get made (life comes from God). God made all the "vessels unto dishonor"--the "potter" made us all. The most proximal cause of an evil may be a living being other than God; but God is still involved, because He could have withheld Himself from making that being, but didn't. For the record, I love God. I simply accept that God is what He is; and that if I don't understand something (like why God creates evil), that the problem is with me, not Him.
I think you're certainly welcome to hold that theology. Where I would disagree is with your characterization of omnipotence. What makes you think God could have prevented evil? I'm not convinced that it's logically possible for God to create free agents and prevent their rebellion. Much like how it's logically impossible for God to create a married bachelor. And even if it is logically possible, is it feasible? I find the feasibility even more implausible. Under your view, you seem to be contradicting yourself. You said "the problem is with me, not Him." But before that you said that God is the ultimate cause of everything, including "your" evil. So if you're going to remain consistent you can't say anything is your fault or your problem. It's all God's problem.
Jared Milam You asked me, "what makes you think God could have prevented evil?". You then stated that you are "not convinced that it's logically possible for God to create free agents and prevent their rebellion." I am not convinced that God was required to create "free agents", or any other beings, at all. By simply not making any beings, He could have prevented any evil caused by those beings (according to Scripture, He HAS prevented many evil deeds simply by eliminating many evildoers). I don't disagree with His decision to make us: I simply recognize that He could have suppressed all the wrongs we've ever done by simply withholding existence from us. I suppose that is "what makes me think God could have prevented [the] evil" in the world brought about through us. We don't have some special right to exist; and, in fact, given the sins that we've all committed, none of us deserves to exist. That's why salvation is a gift. As for the apparent contradiction in my saying "the problem is with me, not Him", it is perhaps the case that I wasn't quite clear enough. I was referring to any lack of understanding that I might have. That deficiency would be in me, not in God. Perhaps I should have used the word "deficiency" or "flaw", rather than the word "problem". You might find Romans 9:14-24 particularly pertinent to this issue. Paul asks if the potter has the right to make both vessels of honor AND DISHONOR (as well as offering a rationale for why God might want to make vessels of dishonor). However, Romans is also one of the epistles that is most commonly quoted by those who believe in predestination.
Greg Boyd has very sorry arguments like most believers do it’s just sad. If one were all Powerful etc. there are no limits to creation and the following creation of free will. One entity with such power can create free will within a framework of no evil. Free will doesn’t mean free to do anything it means free to do anything within the framework of existence. If that framework was created without the existence of evil then free will has no ability to change that framework.
If love is forced, predetermined and inevitable then it's not true love. It's far less poetic and valuable that's for sure. And if it is not, the possibility of absence of love is something that will lead to evil. And your will isn't really free if the framework which it can operate in is already limited. We are made in God's image, that means that we have capacity to create freely. We of course are not even close to being God and are fallen in nature, so we cannot exercise our free will without it leading to imperfection.
Evil is not an entity that exists in of itself. Evil is simply the absence of the goodness of God, which is usually the result of the rejection of God and His law. You cannot disobey God without evil - evil IS disobedience.
I am Agnostic. But I have to say this. If Lucifer was banished by God into what is now Hell, God had to at least create hell itself. If God is all powerful, all knowing, all just, and all loving, God would know that satan is tempting man. So either God created evil or God and Satan made an agreement for human souls
Sammy Sam hell is simply a place without God and God is the light, love , peace. He is going to abandon those who abandoned him. God can live without you, but you can't live without him( love, peace and light)
Evil is a test and challenge. His reward and grace is not free. It requires our wills to be willingly given to Him. However its all easier said than done. Evil is the challenge we must overcome to truly win in life and gain His unlimited infinite benevolence.
So many ridiculous god stories over human history....even though we now we only have 9000 religions left, I still find it hard to spot the one that is true.
God created Satan as a truly free being. God knew he would commit sin, but he created him anyway... but, who commited the sin? sin is action. Evil is commited by people in some way or another. God didn't commit any evil. The person who commits the evil is the person who is responsible for it.
What is God if God has enemies? One big contradiction in the New Testament in relation to the topic of evil. According to Paul in his letter to the Roman "all governments or authorities are put here by God" as oppose to Jonh of the book of Revelations "all governments or authorities are put here by Satan." You have to understand that both Paul and John were talking about the same government the Romans.
Theology 101. Satan was created good with a colossal intellect and perfectly free will. Satan and his minions (also angels) rejected the highest good (God) and made himself an enemy and good and God's good creation.
No he isn't. To say that God is the one responsible for evil is to take the responsibility away from the person committing the evil, and it's exactly what Satan would say and have us all believe. The person who does evil is the one who creates it. That person, who has a mind and an intelligence, chooses to do evil freely. God knowing what they will choose is not taking that responsibility away from them. They make the choice and they commit the evil. The other important thing is that yes God created Satan knowing that he would use Satan in his plan which he has done.
How is God not a good tree that produces bad fruit? God created man in His own image and the minute He turned His back we screwed the whole thing up. Seems like we would have handled our free will a little better being created by a perfect all knowing being. That big gigantic contradiction has always troubled me and of course no humans can explain anything to me
In my opinion debates never end as long as there's any degree of ignorance. The fact sure knowledge of anything requires the omniqualities, that perfect hermeneutic knowledge in contrast with our condition as beings of ignorant nature makes us perpetually rely on assumptions which may further our knowledge without any certainty of arrival by means we can attain. But additionally I'll offer what I believe.. I'm not a theist like so many, I think deism makes sense in a way as does the eschatological atonement and salvation done by the Holy God onto us. What does that mean? What is entailed by that? Well the Holy God is the infinite source of all immanations, but the totality of those immanations creates two diametrically contrary beings and a neutral medium, a threshold entity between them. So the Holy God is like the Monad, a non-dual being where no distinctions are it. All things are as if they were collapsed to the Monad, the Monad knows all conclusions and isn't really necessarily in or of any part of the all but rather consisting beyond the all but as if in it for the sheer fact that nothing exists apart of the providential essence. That's to say maybe every part has to some ratio the eternal goodness in some quality (-ies) but it's also provided the essences of in-eternal evil, qualities that are bad, troublesome, inharmonious or whatever conflict that can be either imagined or witnessed, it's spiritual Murphy's law basically. Basically there's always at least a problem between mathematics, at least a problem between subjects and especially problems between subjects and mathematics which are both separate in essence yet in the material forms are inextricably bound.. And yet the Monad from a transcendental position still deals with all particular matters, but deals these apart from but involved with the Monad (or Him, if that satisfies traditionalists) So that's to say that of course realities of particular dualism, all the immanations can cause all troubles and all existences, it's what they do, they're both unconscious and conscious and also gradients between, and must be some meta-position even beyond conscious until the cusp is reached where it lacks the quality of being the Monad. In dualism : There are things with divine essences and things without divine essences. Things with multiple essences, and every confusion, conflation and contradiction even. Wherever these can exist it's safe to assume they do exist in the model I've been considering. So the sum of those immanations are the satan in traditional terms, or for us here, we're to some degree satanic. The Holy Monad doesn't feel guilt or apologetic, the Monad must however give all these troubles different means and ends, and eventually that neutral medium that is both separate qualities brings the dualistic prospects into a dissolved state and a whole state into salvation, into the Monad. It's only after ego and particulars are made indistinguishable, so in a way ignorance is made omniscient and dispositions are made into all the superpositions, in death of the moment and death of any corpus, all states are constantly doing this, the continuity and correspondence is rather just another persistent illusion among infinitum. So the Holy God is responsible, able to respond, there's no guilt, the feelings of both triviality and ultimate meaning are simultaneous, and there are nuances between these. What's contrived versus what's derived? It's too confounding for us to know which essences we're among and in what ratios, but it appears both are immanent here, that's surely safe in my analysis to state. It's actually quite difficult to speak about these things but I can answer questions if anybody's really curious. I hope nothing's confusing. These are highly metaphysical concepts that what satisfy people wanting an easy narrative whether they appeal to the materialism of darwinism amongst a copernican length star dust cosmology or for those who appeal to the idealism that their parents taught them absolutely correct religious doctrines in a flawed God's great story. Either way the things I'm saying here I believe the future is coming to find more enlightening and accurate, for everything's going to be both confirmed in a way but also dis-confirmed in another way. - Your Quality Apologist
I need to understand why God says multiple time in his word that he will take care of us, that no weapon formed against us shall prosper, that if we love him and have faith in him, we have nothing to be afraid of and all of these comforting things, and you are talking as though none of this matters, as though God actually put us in problems, gives us diseases and purposely have us dying in all kinds of horrific deaths just to have us closer to him? Explain to me how a newborn baby can be drawn closer to God by having extremely painful diseases, HIV, or even dying in his mother's womb? How is all of this consistent with a God for whom everything is possible? Answer this question: Do you think it is possible for someone to have a strong relationship with God without having to go through painful, incurable and lethal diseases? Do we have examples of extremely faithful Christians who of course had some trials but nothing major and still have a close and strong relationship with God? And are all atheist living a miserable life? It should be obvious that every atheist on earth are having the worst time ever because God wants bad things to happen to them in order for them to realize that they can't do anything without him? The bible says the following: And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. Well, you can argue that the mother, seeing her baby dying might draw her closer to God because she will be in great pain. That's a weird and cruel way to do things but let's assume. But does anyone think about the baby? How is that beneficial for him? For those who think that God is not the author of evil things..... Well, take into consideration these two verses: Lamentation 3: 37-38 says: "Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? And Isaiah 45:7 says: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. When I was younger, this is the type of God they taught me: There is good and evil. God is good and satan is evil. You want to stay with God because he will protect you from satan who wants to kill you and tries everything he can so that all types of horrific and bad stuff happen to you. And now by reading my bible, this is what I see.... Is God really the author of every evil thing happening in this world? And if he is not, why is the very bible saying otherwise? I always thought God was saddened by evil. Then why would he do it himself? I thought SIN was the reason why this world was corrupted. If it's the case, why would God himself input and add his own type of evil? Is sin's evil not enough for humanity to bear? I God really watching all these women and children being raped? Or even worst, is he making this thing happening? I need an answer I'm having a hard time understanding this God my parents want me to believe in, I want to believe it too but it's becoming harder as I read the bible. My parents once told me that the god of Islam was not true because in the Koran, it is written to kill unbelievers and a loving God would never ask that. But is all I said above seems coming from a loving God? I understand the bible says multiple time that God loves us. But it is also written in the Koran and in other religious book but I would like to see this love in action.
Yes I also was not told the right(full) story as a kid. Many overlook those verses you mention. God is that he is, the fear of him is the beginning of all wisdom. He shows mercy upon whom he chooses. His love and grace is available in jesus. Jesus really is amazing seek to know him personally and experience his love.
Boyd's ideal "freewill" human being is a moral monster that God could never have created. This is what happens when everything has to be made to fit a theory.
Also God foresaw all the evil in reality- the evil of satan, demons, man, natural evil - all of which arose within God’s creation thus he created the conditions in which evil arose. There is no getting away from this and interestingly this seems to be the conclusion of the Tanakh. Your guest’s arguments are very, very thin.
God actually created both types of worlds. Animals are the auto pilot, non free will system. ONLY humans, made in His image, were given the capacity to choose limited free will. Thus the extra requirement to IMAGE, reflect, be like the creator is a higher standard with humans.
Satan effects gods creation? How powerful then is God again? Certainly not powerful enough to stop his creation (Satan) from messing it all up. AND making his other creation (Humans) hesitant to accept God in their lives. So God created a Being, Satan, who corrupts his other creations, humanity, so much so that the majority of humans are sent to hell to be punished for all eternity. And you’re telling me that it’s humanity’s fault? How are we guilty of any of this?This God you are describing is an utter maniac. May exist, but not worthy of worship at all.
Follow through on this logic 10:20, "without evil you couldn't have any love." My Bible tells me that love has existed between the persons of the Trinity, long before man or angels were created. Greg, are you seriously saying that there must be evil in the Trinity for this love to exist?
Does God live in time or is time part of creation? Then, is there a "before" vs. "after" for God? How can you say "love has existed...long before man or angels were created". Too many assumptions about relationship between God and time in what you write. We simply don't know about the inner life of God enough to say what happens before or after something.
@@melissabaker8866 It sounds to me like you think someone is saying that God forces people to love him. I don't know anyone who believes that. Do you know someone who says that?
There is good in every evil, but these questions lead to nothing. Obviously God must have been bored-he wants to be the judge, so he must be evil himself, too. You guys think God is just good? Well, I just do not know.
Deuteronomy 32 39: "`See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. If you listen to the voice of our Creator, He will teach you why He created the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" to hide the tree of life.
Evil is a test and challenge. His reward and grace is not free. It requires our wills to be willingly given to Him. However its all easier said than done. Evil is the challenge we must overcome to truly win in life and gain His unlimited infinite benevolence.
Why is he downplaying the love of a puppy tho? But srsly tbh I'm not sure of some of the arguments... God doesn't have anything like the lack of knowledge or lack of options in making us that we have in making babies... or I'm mistaken?...
sorry I don't agree that in order to have love in creation there must be evil. I can imagine a universe created by God that has love , kindness compassion, and all of what is considered not evil and still have free will. a good analogy is . consider a table with different dishes of food .but the evil dish does not exist. god never created it .you still have free choice to have any dish you want in existence. you can't choose what does not exist. of coarse the other logical explanation for evil is that god does not exist and evil is a brute fact of the universe we live in.
I like the way you're thinking, but I don't believe your analogy truly supports your first statement. If all the dishes from which you can choose are decidedly "good", and there is no choice that is even remotely evil, then in a rather robot like fashion, it would not really matter what dish was chosen, right? Sure, you might like beans better than rice, but how significant is that? How can one really know, understand and appreciate love, kindness, and compassion without some sort of evil and/or suffering with which to make the contrast? Would it be enough for God to give us free will, if it were a meaningless free will? C.S. Lewis made some very interesting observations regarding this matter. I will refresh my memory of those, and get back to you. Not trying to pick a fight here. Just enjoy the exchange!
Try reading the Bible. If the earth and everything in it is cursed, precisely as the Bible says that it is then the evil that were seeing in the world is precisely what we should expect to see.
This guy is saying the devil causes earthquakes and disease and stuff. That's when I decided to stop listening. You've just gone way outside the bounds of reason and into idiocy.
Greg’s response is one of the very reasons that I left Christianity. You simply cannot account for how fucked up the world is, and blame it on our free will. If I buy a brand new car and it has a defective motor, and I think I’m buying a new car without defects, then is it my fault the car is fucked up, or the car manufacturer? Free will simply doesn’t explain all the evil, suffering, and natural evil.
I don't see how your car analogy even remotely expresses an understanding of the concept at hand. The horrible nature of our world is nothing compared to eternal separation from God. If we have the choice to either love or hate and we choose hate then that more than explains how messed up the world is. God did not allow the existence of evil without an alternative and that is what seems to be under-emphasized.
@CaptainShea, first you have to demonstrate that we have “free will”. It has been demonstrated time, and again that we don’t have “free” will. 2nd if god is all powerful, all knowing, outside of time, and space, all loving and all good, then he could actualize a world where “evil”, and “sin” simply aren’t on the menu so to speak. It’s like going to McDonalds, I can freely order anything on their menu, but I can’t order what’s not on the menu. God could have simply created the world where evil, sin, and suffering weren’t “on the menu”, and it would NOT have effected our free will any bit (if we have free will). On the flip side if we don’t have free will then it’s still all on God, and makes him an even bigger monster.
@Kevin Brannen Let's both agree on the omni-attributes that you have listed and go from there. If God is omnipresent, omnipotent, omnitemporal, omnibenevolent, and omniscient, then how could we, as people who lack all of those things, dictate what form of world God should have actualized? We are not all knowing or all good so how could we assume we know which world would be best without leveling our finite selves with an infinite creator?
liz busta if you were created satan or a serial killer or hitler you would have made the same choices like it or not and you would be burning in hell forever like your fate
there is consciousness in the universe, we are proof of that.....so we have a partly conscious universe here, maybe even totally conscious.....that is pretty amazing, I don't know if we need to look outside ourselves to find God......this universe has consciousness, that seems god-like to me, the universe is a thing that thinks....matter might not exist, only energy which is basically thoughts inside a cosmic mind...that is what everything might be...different levels of a universal consciousness. I don't know how you can maintain that the universe is completely dumb and has no thoughts....what are you doing now?
I’m a avid Christopher Hitchens fan.. and even he , when pressed, wouldn’t draw the hard line that a prime mover did not/could not exist. There is simply no empirical evidence that either proves nor disproves a said god’s existence. Therefore, neither statement “there is no god” or “there is a god”, can be stated as a fact. Both are absolute statements of faith, as it were.
I used to be a Protestant, but I converted to Catholicism a decade ago. Long before I became Catholic, I flew from Michigan to Minnesota just to spend a weekend with Greg. I admired him very much and even had a lengthy correspondence with him over email long after that trip. I used to love his books on the topic of the theodicy. However, over time, I really came to understand that Greg's solution doesn't really solve the problem of the theodicy. He thinks free will gets God off the hook, but by being an omniscient God, who can predict with practical certainty (admittedly, technical probability) all the evil that comes to pass, He is responsible. I don't have an answer to the theodicy either, but I do think it eventually comes down to trusting in God's divine providence. In any sort, Greg's hypothesis doesn't hold water. It just adds another link in the infinite regression of explanations.
Hmm... So you think "being able to predict" is equivalent to being responsible for? That's an interesting presupposition, but I don't see how that logically follows. Does that mean every parent is responsible if their child gets hurt after getting a new bicycle? If I have perfect foresight into the possibility of little Jimmy getting hurt, and warn him accordingly to wear kneepads, a helmet, and be alert while riding - how am I still responsible if Jimmy so chooses to be reckless? This could become a discussion of character, too - am I responsible for Jimmy's pain if I created the possibility by giving him the bicycle? I would think intuition says I'm a *good* parent for giving my child the freedom to do something so fun. Isn't it on account of Jimmy's character (i.e. perhaps he's feeling particularly rebellious) that he chooses to ignore my warnings and ends up crashing the bicycle?
I hope you're starting to see the parallels to Genesis: God WARNED Adam and Eve of the consequences of eating of the Tree of Good and Evil. Is it God's fault that Adam and Eve ate of it then? I hardly see how we could attribute that to God - that there were warning labels attached indicates to me they could have chosen to obey God and not eat the fruit. From your view, if God is responsible for all evil (which contradicts much of what the NT says about God), then He's setting arbitrary and hypocritical standards for us. There is no sense in moral culpability if every evil that comes to pass is exhaustively pre-settled.
To conclude, let me say I entirely respect that you may view these things differently. But I argue a high Christology will also lead us to a similar conclusion as my previous paragraphs; namely, that we cannot attribute these things to God. Let's look at John 9:
"As [Jesus] went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
"Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that *the works of God might be displayed* in him." (emphasis added)
Now, there's more context around that verse, but I think this little detail is often overlooked. Notice that the works of God are displayed in the blind man's _healing_ - not in his blindness. Jesus couldn't more clearly say it. In fact, through Christ's ministry he repeatedly cites things other than God as responsible for many other ailments (Matthew 8, for example - the demon "legion" is responsible for the madman's, well, madness). To posit that God is responsible equates to saying it is God's will - which explicitly contradicts that Jesus is doing the will of "His father in heaven" by _healing all these people!_
Would you also say that God is therefore responsible for all the good in the world ?
I don't know if Greg's opinion on the matter has changed since you met him or not, but these days Greg holds that God cannot absolutely know the future because He created agents with genuine free will. God knows in advance all possible outcomes, but not which one His creatures will actually bring about. This means while God knew this world was possible, it wasn't certain until we took the path we're currently on.
I want Boyd vs Peterson!!!!!! About....ummm... ANYTHING lolol
In this video, the narrator keeps asking if God creates evil but nobody he interviews ever mentions that the classical idea (Augustine/Aquinas) is that evil is nothing but privation of good. Evil has no existence in and of itself. It is just a lack of something that ought to be in the creature but is not.
@NikoR96 Yes, I agree, but I'd want to underline that good and evil are not what they are just because God says so. God says so because that reflects the truth of the matter. Also, the idea I presented above is about the nature of evil (privation of good) not the specific acts that are evil (like murder is evil because it deprives an innocent person of the good of living).
Augustine contradicted himself over and over. The reason you can find truth in him as well as evil is because he was conflicted in himself like no other "Christian" before him, but you can definitely find many after him so conflicted
@@JoshuaLeibrant-dr3xv I don't understand your point. Practically everyone is conflicted in himself and changes views over time. Does that make evil-as-privation false?
@@writereducator Augustine was conflicted in himself to an extreme. He believed the soul was born depraved when it came into contact with the flesh. Is flesh evil? That doesn't make sense if GOD made both
@@JoshuaLeibrant-dr3xv I'd like to see some evidence for your claim. If he said something like that, was it pre or post conversion? Neither takes into account the Catholic claim that evil is a privation.
presenter of closer_ to_the truth is doing great job making programs like this
I love this guy, Greg Boyd.
This guy is the best ! Listen to “ Calvinism destroyed in 10 minutes it’s the Best !!!
Try some of his books like Myth of a Christian Religion and Myth of a Chritian Nation and God of the Possible. Good stuff
This encapsulates very neatly why and how I find Christian theology very limiting. I happen to believe that (a) the fundamental contradiction of this reality is the conflict between love/connectedness and survival; and (b) the overriding purpose of this universe is to keep us open and keep us connected, at the possible cost of ending some of our lives early. Choosing between love and survival (or different degrees of love, different degrees of survival) can result in acts that others might label "evil"; for example, eating some other lifeform will seem very evil to that lifeform. Likewise, earthquakes and other adverse events cause us to band together to help people who are affected by them, or to reach out for help ourselves.
hey Greg you couldn't have said it better.
(More importantly) I don’t think atheism has any defense against the argument of evil.
I really appreciate Greg Boyd.
Thanks for posting this interview, it's very insightful.
Is there free will in Heaven? Is there evil in Heaven? If there is free will but no evil in Heaven, then the two conditions can coexist. If that is the case, what is the point of God putting humans on Earth for only a minuscule amount of time compared to the trillions upon trillions of centuries that would only be the faintest first sliver of eternity?
@ChrisTheHumanist, this is a huge problem for Christianity. Christianity teaches that heaven will exist without sin, pain, death, or sorrow of anykind, but yet we will have free will. So this means that free will could exist without “sin”. So then it would follow that the reason earth has sin, and evil is by Gods design and purpose. Love cannot exist without free will, so free will would have to exist in heaven. Problem is this would make god solely responsible for sin, evil, and death.
In heaven, humans will be recreated without the potential of evil. In this inferior test world, humans have ultimate freedom and can do everything within their power. In heaven, they will have choice but not the exact type of ultimate freedom we have in this world. This is one the rewards (being recreated without the potential of evil) humans gain in this inferior world by showing they are inclined toward good, love, wisdom and justice.
@@pjtube1508 why not just create us that way to begin with? that way no one goes to hell
@@CeezGeez Humans without capacity of evil would not be autonomous, independent and truly subjective moral agents. Humans are faced with all possibilities, directions and options in this world and are left to be completely free to choose. I think autonomy, independence and subjectivity are interrelated and interdependent features
@@pjtube1508 so why not give humans free will but also make us impervious to gunshots, knives, physical harm, not having to eat (millions dying of starvation), etc.
Augustine, one of the great revisionists of the Scriptures. I applaud this man. He discovered the original intent of the book of Job and brings praise to the True Living God. There really is no use for the book of Job, if it's true intent is just establiahing that the Lord gives and the Lord take away. But there is a point to the book of job, if it is an ancient book about the fact that there is an adversary out there to destroy you, and that there are things at work behind the scenes that human ignorance, without the intervention of God can never discern.
The problem with the free will argument is do we really have free will? Doesn’t original sin bend us towards evil? We are not born with a morally neutral setting. We have to fight every day against our very nature. If I had free will I’d never be short with my wife. I’d only eat healthy food. I’d never drink to excess. I’d wake up early and go to sleep on time. But according to biology and original sin we can’t just choose to do what we want bc our nature or sin over powers us.
@@jonnyw82 a prisoner has free will, but no power to free himself. Only somebody with a key and legal power, can free him. There are also the effects of the Fall that are in every single human being that is born after Adam.
In one of the Peters in the New testament, it is stated that baptism does not put off the filth of the flesh. We still have a free will, but our bodies that we live in, are still corrupted. We also have an unrenewed mind, that has to be renewed. When we start doing that our life becomes better.
We have all been born again, sanctified spiritually, and spiritually If any man in Christ a new creature, the old things have passed away the new has come. We have not been born again physically we've only been born again spiritually. The redemption of our bodies comes in the new world.
Also, Adam and Eve started out with free will, in absolute Paradise, and somehow they went their own way. They were absolutely perfect, living in perfection with a free will. According to a lot of reformed systematic reasoning, how could they have chosen then to go their own way? According to reformed logic, if you were made perfect, then you can't do what isnt perfect, and yet it still happened.
God has free will, and yet He is not even tempted by sin, nor to do evil. And, Adam and Eve were made in the image and likeness of God. They were made absolutely perfect. So, if beings with free will, who are made in the image and likeness of God, and who were absolutely perfect and in perfection, could be drawn to sin against God, then we still today have a free will.
Because, what we can learn from having free will, is that it doesn't keep a person from sinning, they just have the ability to son or not. Also, after the fall, when Adam began to have sons, the scripture says that he had a son in his image and likeness(Genesis 5:3) Adam was made in the image and likeness of God, and Adam had free will.
So, the scripture tells us subtly, that the continuing human race, still had free will, because free will is a part of being made in the image and likeness of God.
Greg is such a blessing to intelligent, inquisitive Christians everywhere. His brilliance shows the anti-intellectual stereotype of Christians is bull poop. I don't always agree with Greg, but he makes me really think things through.
God created everything Hench god created evil period.
Jons Jay Digravio How could that not be true? God is responsible for everything good and bad
Then he also wrote this comment.
Therefore God is evil?
@@Betleyman_7 God is equal in all parts evil, good, and mediocre.
@@BibleContradictionsErrors I thought he was omniscient. omnipotent and omnibenevolent. You make him sound quite flawed, a bit like a human really.
Is he saying that unless there is evil in the world,we can't determine what is morally good ?
Look up the Bible Project’s series on Angelic Beings, it’s incredibly informative to understanding this perspective
Hey, can you share a correct link to it? Thanks:-)
Yeah sure, it's a good idea to create beings knowing ahead of time their choices will make You personally mad and so vengeful that you end up damming the majority of them in a world of endless pain. Shit planning on God's part.
That isn't true. No human is inherently immortal. No one will live in pain forever. The lost are destroyed immediately in the Lake of Fire, the second death. Only God has immortality (1Tim. 6:16).
Silvio, your latest reply isn't showing up for me to read to whole thing, probably my TH-cam app is not working right. The very last thing I could read was something about near-death experiences. Near death experiences are very unreliable and unverifiable. Also, they are very subjective. Only the Bible, the word of God is the final Authority in all matters of faith and practice.
@@GodsTruthMinistries There are verses than contradict each other in the bible, I know there is the verse you mentioned and 2 Thessalonians 1:9:"They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" but there are verses that contradict it like.
Revelation 14:11: "And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."
Revelation 14:10:"they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb."
Revelation 22:15:"Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."- One has to be alive to be still outside
What do you make of those verses ?
I guess no one ever wants to countenance the idea that God is a duality. Good and Evil. Yet everything around us suggests this. Light and Dark, Birth and Death, Love and Hate etc. This is not my personal belief, but it is one that makes a lot of sense if you think about it.
I just watched a great very thought provoking video of this guy and the next video find out he’s completely insane. The stretching we do to make sense of God is embarrassing
Unfortunately, its the frameworks that are flawed. Hegel still has the best framework, but the west has chosen to omit and completely ignore any of his philosophical and theological contributions to this matter. Greg is just performing futile mental gymnastics in the segment.
which video are you referring to? (by "next one")
The all knowing God knew he was creating evil, Isiaah 45:7 tell you directly, This guy is a great tap dancer, I honestly don't know how the narrator can keep a straight face with some of these people.
Very interesting interview. I thought about some smart thing to say about it, but I'm blank. Really like this series!
I'm not sure why angelic powers are necessary. Why not simply the fact that we live in a fallen world?
Well, that would be a shorter story to tell and noone would believe it...
Boyd is Awesome!!!! Why am I just hearing about this guy?
Evil is eventually cut off from his kingdom. So it's not eternal. Nothing God created good can be added to or taken from!
The problem with the argument from free will is that one can't choose to be good. "“There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one... for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"
According to Christian doctrine there was only one who chose not to be a sinner, and he was god. Nobody else get's that leg up. For the rest of us attempts at righteousness, no matter how determined and sincere, are but poop on God's carpet. Thus there is no free will outside of choosing one's favorite sins.
If there were actual free will then the whole Jesus drama would not be needed.
This was most informative.
I'd like to see Metatron do a a video on late Roman.
Of corse I'd like to see the remainder of the video.
The example Greg uses about bringing a child into the world is perfect for explaining this question and I disagree with the other man that it is not a fair analogy just because we are not omniscient. Why? We don't need to be omniscient to know that when we have sex there is a possibility that we might be creating life, or that the baby that we have chosen to conceive could grow up to be good or evil. We have NO IDEA what kind of a person we are creating or choosing to bring into the world and yet we always hope for the best. We don't know for 100% exactly what that person will be or do, but we intellectually know that there is a risk that they could go wrong and become evil and maybe even hurt people. But we take that risk anyway, and judge God for doing the same with us and with a free-will creation. Another thing is that while the Bible indicates that God knows the end from the beginning, we don't know whether or not this includes just the universe or beyond. What if God decided to create a free will universe but didn't know until the actual big-bang occurred what the actual consequences would be. Once the universe is created of course it is possible for God (being outside of it) to see it all simultaneously. But what about before hand? There is a lot of quantum science to back this up and we can't know for sure, but I'm just saying that alot of the assumptions we make about what God knew and didn't know and when he knew it are not really resolved yet. Maybe it is more similar to when we decide to procreate then even we might imagine.
God created good an evil but God only commands good. You do evil you are on your own.
if god only commands good why create evil in the first place? don't say free will, there isn't a single passage in the bible that would imply we have free will in fact the story of Jonah contradicts it. God tells Jonah go to Ninevah to spread my word, Jonah says no and does his own thing. God gets pissed and punishes him, THAT'S NOT FREE WILL!!!
@@dylankaiser5546 Evil is a test and challenge. His reward and grace is not free. It requires our wills to be willingly given to Him. However its all easier said than done. Evil is the challenge we must overcome to truly win in life and gain His unlimited infinite benevolence.
@@KingSolomon199 I'm done debating with Christians, I have heard every single argument and found a way around it. My problem isn't that free will exists, it's that God is an apathetic douchebag and uses that as an excuse. there's a story called The Good Samaritan, it contradicts the idea that everyone should have to clean up after ourselves. Did the Samaritan beat rob and beat the man? NO HE FUCKING DIDN'T!!! All I ask is that God helps us get through hard times without violating free will.
@@dylankaiser5546 I feel you, but God is secure and self-sufficient. We should want ultimate success for ourselves. The only way for us to do that individually is to look to God to give us this ultimate success in the way that He details how this ultimate success is attained. The way I look at God is He is Uncreated. Thats really the only word that can truly describe Him. There's a very good argument for God being an apathetic douchebag as well as the fact that He is closer to you than your ownself and loves you infinitely more that your own mother our ownself for that matter. Its alson understood that His will will not be circumvented under any circumstance - the fact that He determines the consequences and meaning of all things - big or small. I think that God is extremely harsh (even considering His patience), beyond words, however I don't intend to make that cause me to have an overall unfavorable opinion of Him that will deny my personal ultimate success (for eternity). Even with all the evil that exists, you still have to admit, anything good that you have ever experienced in life - great or small, is directly because of God as well. I just resolve to the fact that the only way you can describe God truly is the word uncreated, although He is the creator of reality, He is not reality itself, He is the creator of reality itself. For me failure (in eternal life) is not an option. Therefore I follow the blueprint that He gives to succeed in this regard.
@@KingSolomon199 I have experienced good but if free will exists why should God have anything to do with it? God has nothing to do with anything, the world can exist without him. I was once christian and I was told that my life would be great... it wasn't. I was miserable every day of my life. I have depression and if God made me the way he wanted then he wanted me to suffer!!! I refuse to believe a perfect omni benevolent being would create a world so horrid, so flawed. Even if we fucked it up that would only mean it was flawed to begin with. I will not worship a monster who has no problem with doing evil. And yes God does admit he creates evil.
Isaiah 45:7
2 kings 6:33
amos 3:6
If there is a god he's not what you hold him up to be
All these discussions have one problem to start with: We don´t have the mind of God but depend on everything he was and is revealing about himself, about us and the rest of the universe. Therefore we are in no way qualified to judge God. or to try to capture him with our mind. That is the main problem of atheism. Its method is insufficient. It is foolish.
The main point always has been whether we trust God despite the circumstances and despite our experience in life. To trust him that he is good and is love and has the best for those who trust him. This was the decision Adam and Eve had to make and they failed as all of us do. But we can repent by God´s grace. Because God has voluntary agreed to be made the victim of all evil in his Son when he was crucified. And he approved this mission of Jesus Christ by resurrecting him from death. That is the starting point of Christian Faith. Of course we know that this is foolish in the eyes of the world. But we don´t care because we know it is Truth and Life.
Free will is not a great answer. God could have given us free will without also giving humans such a propensity towards evil. We don’t even have pure free will, there’s all sorts of influencing factors.
Rationalization, all the way down...
"God could have created a world that is free of the natural evils..." Yup, he created a billion of them, in the central universe of Havona. And beings there do not have free will. Creating "free will" necessarily created the possibility for evil.
Yup. Straight from the horses mouth:
Isaiah 45:7King James Version (KJV)
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
Open-minded Skeptic For every Jew or Christian interviewed in this series, THIS verse should be the FIRST thing they cite. That any of them go through a whole interview without mentioning it is rather sad, in my opinion. But it seems they all want to portray God in the most "lovable" way they can--even if that means ignoring the plainly stated truth.
To all who want to "protect" God by trying to hide His true nature: He doesn't need your protection--tell the truth.
They don't read from it because it's not relevant. The above quotation is from the KJV. There's your problem. The Hebrew word being translated most closely reflects 'disaster' in its original context, not 'evil.' It's a message to Israel about blessings and punishments depending on their obedience.
John 1:2-3 says: "This same ["the Word"] was with God in the beginning.
All things were made by Him; and nothing that was made was made without Him."
Some may say God doesn't "create evil", but that it's the devil, or people, or some other living being. However, that only leads to the question of why God would create a living being that would do evil things.
At some point, evil began to happen; and God foreknew its coming (omniscience), and could have prevented it (omnipotence), but He didn't. All the living being evildoers that have ever existed did get made (life comes from God). God made all the "vessels unto dishonor"--the "potter" made us all.
The most proximal cause of an evil may be a living being other than God; but God is still involved, because He could have withheld Himself from making that being, but didn't.
For the record, I love God. I simply accept that God is what He is; and that if I don't understand something (like why God creates evil), that the problem is with me, not Him.
I think you're certainly welcome to hold that theology. Where I would disagree is with your characterization of omnipotence. What makes you think God could have prevented evil? I'm not convinced that it's logically possible for God to create free agents and prevent their rebellion. Much like how it's logically impossible for God to create a married bachelor. And even if it is logically possible, is it feasible? I find the feasibility even more implausible.
Under your view, you seem to be contradicting yourself. You said "the problem is with me, not Him." But before that you said that God is the ultimate cause of everything, including "your" evil. So if you're going to remain consistent you can't say anything is your fault or your problem. It's all God's problem.
Jared Milam You asked me, "what makes you think God could have prevented evil?". You then stated that you are "not convinced that it's logically possible for God to create free agents and prevent their rebellion."
I am not convinced that God was required to create "free agents", or any other beings, at all. By simply not making any beings, He could have prevented any evil caused by those beings (according to Scripture, He HAS prevented many evil deeds simply by eliminating many evildoers).
I don't disagree with His decision to make us: I simply recognize that He could have suppressed all the wrongs we've ever done by simply withholding existence from us.
I suppose that is "what makes me think God could have prevented [the] evil" in the world brought about through us. We don't have some special right to exist; and, in fact, given the sins that we've all committed, none of us deserves to exist. That's why salvation is a gift.
As for the apparent contradiction in my saying "the problem is with me, not Him", it is perhaps the case that I wasn't quite clear enough. I was referring to any lack of understanding that I might have. That deficiency would be in me, not in God. Perhaps I should have used the word "deficiency" or "flaw", rather than the word "problem".
You might find Romans 9:14-24 particularly pertinent to this issue. Paul asks if the potter has the right to make both vessels of honor AND DISHONOR (as well as offering a rationale for why God might want to make vessels of dishonor). However, Romans is also one of the epistles that is most commonly quoted by those who believe in predestination.
Such a dark vision of reality, a demon haunted world.
Question without me making fun of anyone what if God went evil
Greg Boyd has very sorry arguments like most believers do it’s just sad. If one were all
Powerful etc. there are no limits to creation and the following creation of free will. One entity with such power can create free will within a framework of no evil. Free will doesn’t mean free to do anything it means free to do anything within the framework of existence. If that framework was created without the existence of evil then free will has no ability to change that framework.
If love is forced, predetermined and inevitable then it's not true love. It's far less poetic and valuable that's for sure. And if it is not, the possibility of absence of love is something that will lead to evil. And your will isn't really free if the framework which it can operate in is already limited. We are made in God's image, that means that we have capacity to create freely. We of course are not even close to being God and are fallen in nature, so we cannot exercise our free will without it leading to imperfection.
Evil is not an entity that exists in of itself. Evil is simply the absence of the goodness of God, which is usually the result of the rejection of God and His law. You cannot disobey God without evil - evil IS disobedience.
I am Agnostic. But I have to say this.
If Lucifer was banished by God into what is now Hell, God had to at least create hell itself.
If God is all powerful, all knowing, all just, and all loving, God would know that satan is tempting man. So either God created evil or God and Satan made an agreement for human souls
Sammy Sam hell is simply a place without God and God is the light, love , peace. He is going to abandon those who abandoned him. God can live without you, but you can't live without him( love, peace and light)
Evil is a test and challenge. His reward and grace is not free. It requires our wills to be willingly given to Him. However its all easier said than done. Evil is the challenge we must overcome to truly win in life and gain His unlimited infinite benevolence.
So many ridiculous god stories over human history....even though we now we only have 9000 religions left, I still find it hard to spot the one that is true.
God created Satan as a truly free being. God knew he would commit sin, but he created him anyway... but, who commited the sin? sin is action. Evil is commited by people in some way or another. God didn't commit any evil. The person who commits the evil is the person who is responsible for it.
What is God if God has enemies? One big contradiction in the New Testament in relation to the topic of evil. According to Paul in his letter to the Roman "all governments or authorities are put here by God" as oppose to Jonh of the book of Revelations "all governments or authorities are put here by Satan." You have to understand that both Paul and John were talking about the same government the Romans.
If there is Satan, then God is not all powerful or all good. Why would God create Satan?
Theology 101. Satan was created good with a colossal intellect and perfectly free will. Satan and his minions (also angels) rejected the highest good (God) and made himself an enemy and good and God's good creation.
Great point at 7:26. God ends up as creating evil. The old trilemma.
So earthquake. Satan instructs all his demons to spread out, grab a piece of land by the edge of a tectonic plate and “shake, shake, shake it out.”
I found this helpful...Other folks not so...God help us...
I disagree with Greg on this one. God is responsible for every thing. Good and evil. The buck stops with God.
No he isn't. To say that God is the one responsible for evil is to take the responsibility away from the person committing the evil, and it's exactly what Satan would say and have us all believe. The person who does evil is the one who creates it. That person, who has a mind and an intelligence, chooses to do evil freely. God knowing what they will choose is not taking that responsibility away from them. They make the choice and they commit the evil. The other important thing is that yes God created Satan knowing that he would use Satan in his plan which he has done.
Thank you very much
How is God not a good tree that produces bad fruit? God created man in His own image and the minute He turned His back we screwed the whole thing up. Seems like we would have handled our free will a little better being created by a perfect all knowing being. That big gigantic contradiction has always troubled me and of course no humans can explain anything to me
According to Isaiah 45:7 (kjv), it states God created evil.
Not if you read Isaiah 45 in context. Especially in light of who Cyrus is, and his purpose
In my opinion debates never end as long as there's any degree of ignorance. The fact sure knowledge of anything requires the omniqualities, that perfect hermeneutic knowledge in contrast with our condition as beings of ignorant nature makes us perpetually rely on assumptions which may further our knowledge without any certainty of arrival by means we can attain.
But additionally I'll offer what I believe.. I'm not a theist like so many, I think deism makes sense in a way as does the eschatological atonement and salvation done by the Holy God onto us. What does that mean? What is entailed by that?
Well the Holy God is the infinite source of all immanations, but the totality of those immanations creates two diametrically contrary beings and a neutral medium, a threshold entity between them.
So the Holy God is like the Monad, a non-dual being where no distinctions are it. All things are as if they were collapsed to the Monad, the Monad knows all conclusions and isn't really necessarily in or of any part of the all but rather consisting beyond the all but as if in it for the sheer fact that nothing exists apart of the providential essence.
That's to say maybe every part has to some ratio the eternal goodness in some quality (-ies) but it's also provided the essences of in-eternal evil, qualities that are bad, troublesome, inharmonious or whatever conflict that can be either imagined or witnessed, it's spiritual Murphy's law basically.
Basically there's always at least a problem between mathematics, at least a problem between subjects and especially problems between subjects and mathematics which are both separate in essence yet in the material forms are inextricably bound..
And yet the Monad from a transcendental position still deals with all particular matters, but deals these apart from but involved with the Monad (or Him, if that satisfies traditionalists)
So that's to say that of course realities of particular dualism, all the immanations can cause all troubles and all existences, it's what they do, they're both unconscious and conscious and also gradients between, and must be some meta-position even beyond conscious until the cusp is reached where it lacks the quality of being the Monad.
In dualism : There are things with divine essences and things without divine essences. Things with multiple essences, and every confusion, conflation and contradiction even. Wherever these can exist it's safe to assume they do exist in the model I've been considering.
So the sum of those immanations are the satan in traditional terms, or for us here, we're to some degree satanic.
The Holy Monad doesn't feel guilt or apologetic, the Monad must however give all these troubles different means and ends, and eventually that neutral medium that is both separate qualities brings the dualistic prospects into a dissolved state and a whole state into salvation, into the Monad.
It's only after ego and particulars are made indistinguishable, so in a way ignorance is made omniscient and dispositions are made into all the superpositions, in death of the moment and death of any corpus, all states are constantly doing this, the continuity and correspondence is rather just another persistent illusion among infinitum.
So the Holy God is responsible, able to respond, there's no guilt, the feelings of both triviality and ultimate meaning are simultaneous, and there are nuances between these.
What's contrived versus what's derived? It's too confounding for us to know which essences we're among and in what ratios, but it appears both are immanent here, that's surely safe in my analysis to state.
It's actually quite difficult to speak about these things but I can answer questions if anybody's really curious. I hope nothing's confusing. These are highly metaphysical concepts that what satisfy people wanting an easy narrative whether they appeal to the materialism of darwinism amongst a copernican length star dust cosmology or for those who appeal to the idealism that their parents taught them absolutely correct religious doctrines in a flawed God's great story.
Either way the things I'm saying here I believe the future is coming to find more enlightening and accurate, for everything's going to be both confirmed in a way but also dis-confirmed in another way.
- Your Quality Apologist
I need to understand why God says multiple time in his word that he will take care of us, that no weapon formed against us shall prosper, that if we love him and have faith in him, we have nothing to be afraid of and all of these comforting things, and you are talking as though none of this matters, as though God actually put us in problems, gives us diseases and purposely have us dying in all kinds of horrific deaths just to have us closer to him? Explain to me how a newborn baby can be drawn closer to God by having extremely painful diseases, HIV, or even dying in his mother's womb? How is all of this consistent with a God for whom everything is possible?
Answer this question: Do you think it is possible for someone to have a strong relationship with God without having to go through painful, incurable and lethal diseases? Do we have examples of extremely faithful Christians who of course had some trials but nothing major and still have a close and strong relationship with God? And are all atheist living a miserable life? It should be obvious that every atheist on earth are having the worst time ever because God wants bad things to happen to them in order for them to realize that they can't do anything without him?
The bible says the following: And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
Well, you can argue that the mother, seeing her baby dying might draw her closer to God because she will be in great pain. That's a weird and cruel way to do things but let's assume. But does anyone think about the baby? How is that beneficial for him?
For those who think that God is not the author of evil things..... Well, take into consideration these two verses:
Lamentation 3: 37-38 says: "Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
And Isaiah 45:7 says: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
When I was younger, this is the type of God they taught me: There is good and evil. God is good and satan is evil. You want to stay with God because he will protect you from satan who wants to kill you and tries everything he can so that all types of horrific and bad stuff happen to you. And now by reading my bible, this is what I see.... Is God really the author of every evil thing happening in this world? And if he is not, why is the very bible saying otherwise?
I always thought God was saddened by evil. Then why would he do it himself? I thought SIN was the reason why this world was corrupted. If it's the case, why would God himself input and add his own type of evil? Is sin's evil not enough for humanity to bear? I God really watching all these women and children being raped? Or even worst, is he making this thing happening? I need an answer I'm having a hard time understanding this God my parents want me to believe in, I want to believe it too but it's becoming harder as I read the bible. My parents once told me that the god of Islam was not true because in the Koran, it is written to kill unbelievers and a loving God would never ask that. But is all I said above seems coming from a loving God? I understand the bible says multiple time that God loves us. But it is also written in the Koran and in other religious book but I would like to see this love in action.
Yes I also was not told the right(full) story as a kid. Many overlook those verses you mention. God is that he is, the fear of him is the beginning of all wisdom. He shows mercy upon whom he chooses. His love and grace is available in jesus. Jesus really is amazing seek to know him personally and experience his love.
It is self evident that God created evil
Boyd's ideal "freewill" human being is a moral monster that God could never have created. This is what happens when everything has to be made to fit a theory.
Well my debate with this guy would have to start out by debating free will because I'm pretty sure it's just an illusion.
Was that comment on free will a product of your rationality, or were you determined to write it?
Ouch !!
Nate M. That is unknown, despiste what Dan Dennet tells you
Also God foresaw all the evil in reality- the evil of satan, demons, man, natural evil - all of which arose within God’s creation thus he created the conditions in which evil arose. There is no getting away from this and interestingly this seems to be the conclusion of the Tanakh. Your guest’s arguments are very, very thin.
God (the creative principle) is both good and evil. Satan is the biblical personification of evil, the dark side of God.
Isaiah 45:7
God actually created both types of worlds. Animals are the auto pilot, non free will system. ONLY humans, made in His image, were given the capacity to choose limited free will. Thus the extra requirement to IMAGE, reflect, be like the creator is a higher standard with humans.
Satan effects gods creation? How powerful then is God again? Certainly not powerful enough to stop his creation (Satan) from messing it all up. AND making his other creation (Humans) hesitant to accept God in their lives. So God created a Being, Satan, who corrupts his other creations, humanity, so much so that the majority of humans are sent to hell to be punished for all eternity. And you’re telling me that it’s humanity’s fault? How are we guilty of any of this?This God you are describing is an utter maniac. May exist, but not worthy of worship at all.
Follow through on this logic 10:20, "without evil you couldn't have any love." My Bible tells me that love has existed between the persons of the Trinity, long before man or angels were created. Greg, are you seriously saying that there must be evil in the Trinity for this love to exist?
Does God live in time or is time part of creation? Then, is there a "before" vs. "after" for God? How can you say "love has existed...long before man or angels were created". Too many assumptions about relationship between God and time in what you write.
We simply don't know about the inner life of God enough to say what happens before or after something.
No. Without freedom you couldn't have love.
@@melissabaker8866
So a slave could never love or be loved?
@@orvillewright548 Ever try to force someone to love you? Love doesn't come by force. Love is freely given.
@@melissabaker8866
It sounds to me like you think someone is saying that God forces people to love him. I don't know anyone who believes that. Do you know someone who says that?
There is good in every evil, but these questions lead to nothing. Obviously God must have been bored-he wants to be the judge, so he must be evil himself, too. You guys think God is just good? Well, I just do not know.
Deuteronomy 32
39: "`See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
If you listen to the voice of our Creator, He will teach you why He created the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" to hide the tree of life.
Evil is a test and challenge. His reward and grace is not free. It requires our wills to be willingly given to Him. However its all easier said than done. Evil is the challenge we must overcome to truly win in life and gain His unlimited infinite benevolence.
Why is he downplaying the love of a puppy tho? But srsly tbh I'm not sure of some of the arguments... God doesn't have anything like the lack of knowledge or lack of options in making us that we have in making babies... or I'm mistaken?...
yes according to the bible
My troll, elf, and gremlin say there aren't demons, angels or gods.
you can only deny what you can define.
Satan?? Brave?? No...nutty ?? Yes!!
sorry I don't agree that in order to have love in creation there must be evil.
I can imagine a universe created by God that has love , kindness compassion, and all of what is considered not evil and still have free will.
a good analogy is .
consider a table with different dishes of food .but the evil dish does not exist. god never created it .you still have free choice to have any dish you want in existence. you can't choose what does not exist.
of coarse the other logical explanation for evil is that god does not exist and evil is a brute fact of the universe we live in.
I like the way you're thinking, but I don't believe your analogy truly supports your first statement. If all the dishes from which you can choose are decidedly "good", and there is no choice that is even remotely evil, then in a rather robot like fashion, it would not really matter what dish was chosen, right? Sure, you might like beans better than rice, but how significant is that? How can one really know, understand and appreciate love, kindness, and compassion without some sort of evil and/or suffering with which to make the contrast? Would it be enough for God to give us free will, if it were a meaningless free will? C.S. Lewis made some very interesting observations regarding this matter. I will refresh my memory of those, and get back to you. Not trying to pick a fight here. Just enjoy the exchange!
yes we all want that but that is not what happened
Try reading the Bible. If the earth and everything in it is cursed, precisely as the Bible says that it is then the evil that were seeing in the world is precisely what we should expect to see.
2nd thess: 2:11
Clutching at straws here !
demons... haha... I only see people behaving as people do.
This guy is saying the devil causes earthquakes and disease and stuff. That's when I decided to stop listening. You've just gone way outside the bounds of reason and into idiocy.
Dooality I haven't gotten that far.. God Created evil.
Greg’s response is one of the very reasons that I left Christianity. You simply cannot account for how fucked up the world is, and blame it on our free will. If I buy a brand new car and it has a defective motor, and I think I’m buying a new car without defects, then is it my fault the car is fucked up, or the car manufacturer? Free will simply doesn’t explain all the evil, suffering, and natural evil.
I don't see how your car analogy even remotely expresses an understanding of the concept at hand. The horrible nature of our world is nothing compared to eternal separation from God. If we have the choice to either love or hate and we choose hate then that more than explains how messed up the world is. God did not allow the existence of evil without an alternative and that is what seems to be under-emphasized.
@CaptainShea, first you have to demonstrate that we have “free will”. It has been demonstrated time, and again that we don’t have “free” will. 2nd if god is all powerful, all knowing, outside of time, and space, all loving and all good, then he could actualize a world where “evil”, and “sin” simply aren’t on the menu so to speak. It’s like going to McDonalds, I can freely order anything on their menu, but I can’t order what’s not on the menu. God could have simply created the world where evil, sin, and suffering weren’t “on the menu”, and it would NOT have effected our free will any bit (if we have free will). On the flip side if we don’t have free will then it’s still all on God, and makes him an even bigger monster.
@Kevin Brannen
Let's both agree on the omni-attributes that you have listed and go from there. If God is omnipresent, omnipotent, omnitemporal, omnibenevolent, and omniscient, then how could we, as people who lack all of those things, dictate what form of world God should have actualized? We are not all knowing or all good so how could we assume we know which world would be best without leveling our finite selves with an infinite creator?
If he is going to talk BS, at least be consistent.
BlueCircle At least make a point. You guys and your ad hoc intellect. Come on get educated.
gawd dun it i tell ya
there is no free will period even the bible says so
danny valastro quote the verse
liz busta if you were created satan or a serial killer or hitler you would have made the same choices like it or not and you would be burning in hell forever like your fate
we are all victims of this evil
Bottom line is there is NO God.
there is consciousness in the universe, we are proof of that.....so we have a partly conscious universe here, maybe even totally conscious.....that is pretty amazing, I don't know if we need to look outside ourselves to find God......this universe has consciousness, that seems god-like to me, the universe is a thing that thinks....matter might not exist, only energy which is basically thoughts inside a cosmic mind...that is what everything might be...different levels of a universal consciousness. I don't know how you can maintain that the universe is completely dumb and has no thoughts....what are you doing now?
I’m a avid Christopher Hitchens fan.. and even he , when pressed, wouldn’t draw the hard line that a prime mover did not/could not exist. There is simply no empirical evidence that either proves nor disproves a said god’s existence. Therefore, neither statement “there is no god” or “there is a god”, can be stated as a fact. Both are absolute statements of faith, as it were.
all this is just mental gymnastics trying to rationalize that when taken at face value is nonsensical and contradictory .