Man I want to enjoy this game, but stuff like this, broken balance, large units pushing routing ones off the map instead of hitting, just make it so frustrating
In lord duels while one of them is surrounded by enemy forces, it shares their splash damage amongst them. That means that units sponge damage away from the supported lord while the other surrounded lord eats the whole attack value.
@@freshgandalf8946 This is false. Splash attacks are overridden when attacking any SE/SEM and chariots regardless of what the splash attack size threshold is.
i feel like cutting grimgor's abilities was a mistake gitsnink would of turned grimgor in to an even stronger duelist and the armour ability is quite good at not only damage but also at ensuring he does not get bogged down fighting the laborer units just my 2 waaghs
There has to be something weird going on with Astragoth for him to only take 40 damage from Grimgor, right? Grimgor has 350 AP, so that's around 90% damage mitigation. He shouldn't be at the resist cap. I wonder if the display for his passive caps out at 30%, but it keeps scaling beyond that? Could also be that CA forgot to give him the High Threat flag, so he doesn't override splash attacks. Grimgor can hit six entities, so the math would work out in that case too. Would certainly explain a lot of his tankiness if he's bugged though.
I feel like chorf players should just skip bringing a lord in their main army and just bring a magma cannon as their general, it's the unit carrying the army after all.
Honestly it feels like magma cannon could use a range decrease or something so that the opponent shouldn't always build around them. But other than Astragoth having all around ridiculous stats for no reason Chorfs seem pretty balanced. They have really good tools with some key weaknesses like slow heavy cavalry, artillery being weak to cannons and pricy non-chaff infantry.
I agree. Fix Magmas by adjusting them to Flame Cannons. Make Bulls cost 200 more (same price as Dragon Ogres), and then nerf the stats of Astragoth. He is a crippled old man on a steampunk wheelchair. He should not have better combat stats (including mass) than Taurox. Honestly, who the fuck thought giving him 5K mass (when dragons are at 4400) was a good idea?
I know that campaign stuff is a concern (and that's mostly what I care about), but honestly my first thought on seeing how overtuned Astrogoth was, 'That doesn't match his lore'. He's supposed to have fallen from his prime due to that stone curse, reduced to his walking apparatus. If he were the unquestioned leader of the chaos dwarves, or the avatar of Hashut, or something like that then it would make sense for him to be one of the strongest lords (with higher cost natch). But his whole deal is trying to recover lost glory and power. And if this is how strong he is when crippled, what was he like at his prime? The Dwarf Everchosen? I don't hate power creep, but this seems like a pretty sloppy example of it. Really I'd like it if instead of becoming tougher as he lost hp, he instead gradually lost either casting ability or speed as he further degenerated into stone. Or maybe casting itself would cause massive speed loss, forcing you to choose between a big caster or a big fighter, rather than right now where he's amazing at both at the same time.
Was he even fast on tabletop? When I saw his model I thought he was some trudging, heavy, dark sorcery-charged cripple. But they turned him into some anime robo mech, not just sprinting at 60 speed but jumping storeys high as well
He actually does get slower as he takes damage, but the speed decrease is unnoticeably small. He loses like 6 of his 60 speed throughout his health bar, while gaining up to 30% physical resistance.
You know a unit is overtuned when every match up revolves around the magma cannon. A single unit determines not a only a few tech picks, but it determines how your opponent has to constuct his entire army.
Imo the magma cannon should have its range reduced to the 250-350 range, like the dwarf flame cannons. It would make it less absurdly good and it would make sense that a clump of magma can't travel as far as say a rocket.
Queen Bess also has the ability to wipe out strong infantry but it's crews are simple enough to take care of. Magma Cannon is just so hard to take offline. Have to basically build your army around it which as you said is crazy for one unit.
@@gunnerjensen5998 Queen Bess is also limited to 1, much more expensive, easier to dodge due to the slow projectile, has less armor, on and on. Magma cannons just do too many things right now. You can't have extreme range and extreme accuracy and extreme damage and be cheap. A few of those things have to give.
@@Kayosiv totally agree. Seems to almost always hit center mass. I get the idea of making cool new units but Chaos Drawfs certainly have a few VERY strong units.
Great match. The magma cannon is getting a bit stale though. Maybe it's how early match its so hard to counter or surprise eliminate like other factions artillery.
magma cannon is a 950 flame cannon with basically double the range. flame cannons are 1300 and basically priced just right (1200 or some more range would be welcome). magma cannons are ridiculously under priced. if the magma cannon cost 1200, then sending a couple boar boy big un behind ennemy lines would be worth the risk. Keep in mind Bull centaurs easily crush any cav engagement early on, especially close to dwarf reinforcement points. With such awesome sweepers magma cannon can't be allowed to be that cost effective.
I wholly disagree that flame cannons are priced just right, you basically never see them at all. As in the video, Turin wasn't even sure how much damage they do because no one ever uses them. Magma cannons are for sure too good, but flame cannons are not the right measuring stick here. It's the same with bull centaurs and dragon ogres, yes bull centaurs are better than dragon ogres (and too good in general) but when did you last see dragon ogres be picked?
Flame cannon's are a horribly balanced unit that you almost never see. I don't even think they're really good in campaign. Dwarf units shouldn't really be the standard for balance because they have quite a few units you basically never see played. If anything, this is just an argument for buffing the flame cannon and other under performing dwarf units.
Ah yeah "priced just right" so that no one who isn't memeing ever uses them. "Only useful in memebuilds" seems like a rather strange goal of balancing a unit.
@@DerLoladin to the people saying the unit is a meme and badly priced, use it in a balanced army comp (i mean use it YOURSELF and get a feel for it). To me the flame cannon is sleeper op, maybe not op but sleeper great, especially combined with the RoR catapult for 24 moral debuff (32 as being hit by artillery counts as -8 i believe). VERY strong. Dwarf players problem is they usually don't get enough slayers imo. Flame cannons are perfect to balance out slayer's weakness to archers and infantry. Magma canon's power should ring a bell to you that maybe this class of weapon has great potential... if you build around it.
Feel like Nasty Skulkers would be a big winner in this match up as a way to punch-up against chorf armour. Stalk keeps them safe from bombardment and unless CA patched it their MA & AP bonus is always active, plus at 500 gold they're relatively cheap and like Fanatics you can get huge value out of their ability.
While I agree that Magma cannons need a cost increase or some other tuning, some other aspects of the chorf roster could use a buff honestly. Trains feel limp, K'dai are basically never used due to their squishy ness, the rocket launcher is underwhelming and elite chorf infantry gets eaten by magic due to their lacknof spell resist. Perhaps make Astragoth more expensive, swap magma cannons and rocket launcher price tags while giving a slightly narrower spread on the anti infantry rocket, then give a small bit of love to the trains and give K'dai at least 110 armor and more health to the destroyer and then we should see a pretty balanced army with tons of options without beibg forced to run specific units every sibgle match up.
I wonder if Azhag might be better for this fight. On his wyvern he should be able to chase down the flying character, and he has Lore of Death for Bjuna and Spirit Leech (also Purple Sun for some fun). I was thinking thay in this game in particular he'd have been able to take the fight to the low HP Daemonsmith then Spirit Leech the low Astragoth. He'd also force your opponent to guard the Magma Cannons. Edit: got to the end of the video, seems you have the same thought.
Haven't watched yet, here's my prediction: Magma cannon/s massively overpreform/s AFTER WATCHING: Oh yes and astragoth rushes head first into grimgor, *2* giants, mass of orcs. And wins.
The magma cannons are what the dwarf flame cannons wish they could be. Mobile/harder to shut down, long range, high projectile velocity. On paper flame cannons will out damage them but a good opponent would never give them chance. Same reason you don't see many helblasters/organ guns. Short range + high shut down priority.
Yep. When I first saw how devastating they were it was a single good hit on a full hp unit of Black Knights on the move. The Black Knights lost 60% of their hp from one shot... It doesn't seem the initial hit is that bad, it is the vortex and damage over time that chunks things down the most.
Just wondering... Most of the time when an army brings a big single entity centerpiece, people always bring two of them, not one. Double Giants, Double Stonehorns, Double Ironblasters, Double Terracotta, Double Phoenixes. Why are single entity builds always kind of an all or none deal?
It's either threat overload or that if you only bring 1 single entity, they might get lonely. Are you really going to make your giant friend sad? He's already in so much pain.
Archaon is a proper raid boss since the WoC rework though, even stronger than Astragoth. 7000hp, 70/60/470 melee stats with AP and magic attacks, 120 armor with a bronze shield, 10% physical/15% missile resist, 94 speed, great buffs... Archaon already is what Archaon should be, even if it did take 6 years.
Hot take: Chaos Dwarf spellcasters should take way more damage from miscasts. After all, in the lore they literally petrify over time because they are somewhat allergic to magic. On that note: I think they should nerf the MA and MD on Astragoth. I can accept that his magic robo-arms would hit pretty hard, but there's no way that they should have the same dexterity and control as someone with actual, functioning arms.
I wonder if the "wide line of cheap chaff backed double giant" strat works for the bone giant and cygors for TK and beastmen. It gives them artillery pieces that can fire out effectively without getting wasted by the magna cannon.
I'd be so curious how a goblin-themed-build would do - wide as humanly possible, squigs and nasty skulkers for days and as many spiders as you can to poison things up.
IMO Magma cannons should be price adjusted to their closest role-equivalent - Helstorm Rocket Batteries. (Definitely not flame cannons considering how god awful they are for their gigantic price) They fill the exact same role and can be just as devastating but I don't see anyone complaining about them needing to be brought up to 1300+ gold cost.
Astrogoth just doesn't seem to have any real downside. You get the best of nearly everything. He's super mobile, large HP pool, good armor with very high combat stats oh and he's a caster. I'd like to see him get a pretty big nerf to his combat stats and some to his health pool. He can be "solid" in combat but not a terror but able to move around wherever he's needed.
IDK if you saw but snotling pump wagons look like they've gotten a major buff having like 12 in a unit now, I wonder how they would perform vs chaos dwarfs now.
Astragoth only takes so little dmg from grimgor bc of the damage distribution. When a SEM has splash attacks (like everything) and it does a hit, it can only hit a certain number of large or small units. Example: if there are 4 infantry sized models in front of the unit, the damage gets divided by 4. If there are 1 large and 3 infantry sized, the large one gets priority and gets the full dmg. so u can duel with monsters in a blob fight. Problem is: Astragoth is infantry sized so the dmg he should get is divided. so he gets a little dmg and all the buffering infantry around him gets dmg too. that is why it is nearly impossible to goon an infantry lord in an infantry blob.
Personally think large units like arachnarok or more sneaky stuff with nasty skulkers which you could try to sneak onto their cannons (idk how they'd trade since they do have AP)
@@eagleguy7 The Arachnarok has anti-large, but it has really low WS for a monster in its price class. Giants are much better at killing monstrous cavalry because they are better at taking out models. Additionally, giants have just a lot more health and against a faction that has a whole roster full of AP, that's simply more valuable than the 120 armour on the queen. The spiderlings are ok, but they tend to rout before they can be of much use. Additionally, it's a matter of pricing. 2 large affordable monsters are better than one really expensive one, because it means the enemy cannot easily isolate and focus down a target. The Queen is 2400. Two giants are 2800. For the 400 extra you get way more value.
@@Welkor yes, this. Balance benefits SP too, but because MP has less distorting variables, balance tends to come from MP community. For SP, balance from MP community is like a parent making kids eat their vegetables. The kids cries and moans and plays victim, but the veggies are obviously good for them.
@@MostlyUnreadArmchairExpert Nah some units that are balanced for MP are straight up trash in SP Who uses skirmish cav in SP unironnically? No one because their strong points (safety and reliability) are not useful vs AI over the raw dps of a regular unit. Who uses clanrats, stormvermins, gyrocopters, white lions, war wagons, kossovite dervishes, blood knights, grail reliquae etc ? Cost effectiveness isn't a good thing when playing SP because the AI has more money but is way less efficient with its units so you want something that punches way above its grade vs a stupid opponent Nerfing magic wasn't good for the game it made it less fun (tho arguably more balanced)
Please leave singleplayer alone, tune all you want in your multiplayer. I like having fun in singleplayer instead of most boring shit possible because muh balance
wonder if he just pushed on the cannons with the giants at the beginning, he would have won. He brought these 2 expensive beaters to battle and for several minutes they just stood and did nothing guarding a point that was not being attacked.
astragoth is bleeding! making him the victor... i dont understand why he has such stupid base stats, like why does he have 40 armor more than a destroyer?
Looking forward to playing Nurgle with the new buffs to plague toads and rotflies, but it does make me wonder if pox riders and plague drones are also being buffed.
Eh the magma canon was very good but Turin would probably win that objective if he hadn't summoned the Black orks. He allocated all of his resources into one bad apple and it pulled away units that could have supported the giants and grimgor.
Maybe. from what I've heard and seen Chorfs can lose artillery trades against batteries like cannons, except for instances where the Deathshrieker is involved
A foot character should not be able to knock over a giant. A health and mass nerf is warranted. I don't think that would impact campaign play too much.
Basic game design when making a new character. Check the current lore. Is a CD sorcerer-king tougher and 'arder than the meanest orc? No. So give the CD less HP. Is he more armored than the most armored up dwarf in the lore? No. So give him less armor. Continue doing this for every stat and wow, its closer to balanced than whatever this offering is. Same with the magma cannon range, no idea where CA gets the initial values from. Its like a 13 yo making their first character. "Yeah, well, my CD sorcerer king is a half dragon half vampire half demon angel bard samurai paladin who is level 20, has +5 on every item, knows Wish, and can also do everything your character does..." I get they want them to feel strong so the munchkins buy the content but still lol
Those answers might surprise you actually. Is Astragoth tougher and 'arder than Grimgor? Seeing as how he has the Stone Mantle, the answer is yes, that item easily makes your Chaos Dwarfs into one of the toughest characters. On the tabletop, a character who suffered a miscast and was wearing the Stone Mantle would go up to Toughness 7, making them the toughest lord in the game that wasn't a demon (even Ogres, Dragons and the like would cap out at Toughness 6 at the most). Are they more armoured than the most armoured Dwarf? Yes and no. This depends on how you gear them; the Chaos Dwarfs loved their armour just as much as the regular ones and they created an upgraded version of Chaos Armour to compensate which is superior to Gromril (it has the same save and offers fire resistance) using their own form of sorcery and craftsmanship. The only reason the Dwarfs can conceivably have more armour is because of their Shieldbearers, which are currently not in the game at all, and in that case you're taking a combined armour save of 3 Dwarfs rather than 1. While you are wrong about the other stuff, you are right about the Magma Cannon. While it isn't super short range on the tabletop (it had a max range of between 26 and 36 inches) the distance they allow it to shoot here is way too far. It didn't have a Cannon's range before, and I don't think it should have a Cannon's range now. Also the Chaos Dwarfs are pretty well balanced with only a few exceptions, the Magma Cannon being one of them.
@@lich109 Cool he gets armor then. See arguments 1-10. The point still stands even if you're obtuse about it. The character is way too overtuned. What you said only applies to a small part of his kit. Why is he as good a caster as Manfred if not better and can solo Franz and out mass a Hierotitan? As he is currently, its stupid. He can solo Archaon. Not sure you exactly understand the point I was making. A TTRPG lord with that item doesn't also become a giant, a dragon, a hellblaster volleygun, and a blood dragon life slaan.
@@casimirgythe2181 I'm not saying he should be left as is, he definitely needs a HP reduction, however Astragoth was a fantastic fighter on the tabletop so he should be a great fighter here as well. The reason is because of his mechanical limbs, when he swings he hits with metal and stone fists, and the more hits he lands, the more hits he gets to make, to the point where on the tabletop you could give him 6 attacks at S5 that automatically hit. That is enough to solo Franz with some luck, and that's why I'm fine with him being a good beatstick on top of being a great wizard, it's a part of his character. Now he definitely should not be able to run as fast as he does, that I will argue since even though his mechanical body makes him faster, it should only put him into Ogre territory, if that. I'll also argue, like I said above, to lower his HP by a lot. Once his HP and speed are both lowered I think he'll be in a pretty good spot.
Turin, please don’t argue for these campaign breaking changes, if they nerf magma range then the bretonnians will have more range than chaos dwarfs. Still holding a grudge for the poor salamander that is total trash since the MP focused nerf
I've noticed that over the course of the last few chorf videos that you are slowly becoming less of a fan of fidel castrogoth, LOL. He does seem a bit silly, as do magma cannons
Chaos dorfs just have too many op units. They really have an answer for everything. Unfortunately that dosn't make a faction interesting or fun. I'd wager 1/2 their units need some sort of retuning or cost increases to balance them out.
Just what is that loading screen lord portrait? Grimgor is the "don't do meth" Donald Duck meme and the chorf lord is a low-poly NPC model from PlayStation 2. Whoever is in charge of the portraits should get his shit together because both 2D and 3D art is just terrible.
Shit, now it is not just even fun. It's just stupid and makes me sad. No joke, astragoth broken without any circumstances. He MUST be nerfed, without a doubt.
I think this is the main reason i can't support this dlc, Astragoth being an insane duelist while being an insane tank and an spell caster like come on how does any one think that is balanced, then you have magma cannons who are seeminly only bad vs SEM's, they wreck most cav, they wreck light infantry and elite infantry and even some monsterous units, they are good in artillary duels i feel most people who are saying chaos dwarves are fine just have rose tinted goggles on, they have been waiting for chaos dwarves or so long they cant help but look past the BS and go its fine everythings fine, like i only play campaign but even in campaigs these overpowered units just make fighting races with them more of an annoyance then anything so i dont think you can say "oh its fine if its OP in campaign it doesnt matter" thats a pretty shallow way to look at it like campaign doesnt deserve balance
I'm getting a feeling turin doesn't like the dawi zarr too much, every video is like figuring how to beat them not how to play as them, getting rather repetitive.
![เปิดบ้าน โคตรสวย ป๋องกพล รู้จักตั้งนาน เพิ่งรู้ว่ารวย!!! l [Nickynachat]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tmgCF_2HfYI/mqdefault.jpg)
Astrogoth taking barely 40 damage per Grimgor hit was the most depressing thing I've seen since watching Sigvald 1vEverything a math at the end
Man I want to enjoy this game, but stuff like this, broken balance, large units pushing routing ones off the map instead of hitting, just make it so frustrating
In lord duels while one of them is surrounded by enemy forces, it shares their splash damage amongst them. That means that units sponge damage away from the supported lord while the other surrounded lord eats the whole attack value.
@@freshgandalf8946 This is false. Splash attacks are overridden when attacking any SE/SEM and chariots regardless of what the splash attack size threshold is.
Agreed, and the fact that Astrogoth either has nearly the same amount of health, or more than Grimgor is just taking the piss
@@ramped_shadowz6310 when was it changed?
i feel like cutting grimgor's abilities was a mistake
gitsnink would of turned grimgor in to an even stronger duelist and the armour ability is quite good at not only damage but also at ensuring he does not get bogged down fighting the laborer units
just my 2 waaghs
teef orc uses teef. Other then that I 100% agree with what you said.
I never mentioned this before but I quite like your voice. Definitely makes watching these battles even better.
Appreciate that!
There has to be something weird going on with Astragoth for him to only take 40 damage from Grimgor, right? Grimgor has 350 AP, so that's around 90% damage mitigation. He shouldn't be at the resist cap.
I wonder if the display for his passive caps out at 30%, but it keeps scaling beyond that? Could also be that CA forgot to give him the High Threat flag, so he doesn't override splash attacks. Grimgor can hit six entities, so the math would work out in that case too.
Would certainly explain a lot of his tankiness if he's bugged though.
I feel like chorf players should just skip bringing a lord in their main army and just bring a magma cannon as their general, it's the unit carrying the army after all.
Honestly it feels like magma cannon could use a range decrease or something so that the opponent shouldn't always build around them. But other than Astragoth having all around ridiculous stats for no reason Chorfs seem pretty balanced. They have really good tools with some key weaknesses like slow heavy cavalry, artillery being weak to cannons and pricy non-chaff infantry.
I would think the magma cannon would have some similarity with the flame cannon for range.
I agree. Fix Magmas by adjusting them to Flame Cannons. Make Bulls cost 200 more (same price as Dragon Ogres), and then nerf the stats of Astragoth. He is a crippled old man on a steampunk wheelchair. He should not have better combat stats (including mass) than Taurox. Honestly, who the fuck thought giving him 5K mass (when dragons are at 4400) was a good idea?
They really should cut the flame cannon price by 2-300g as well. 1,3k is just far too expensive.
Every Chaos Dwarf game
“It doesn’t matter/we have got/the magma cannon/ they do not”
I know that campaign stuff is a concern (and that's mostly what I care about), but honestly my first thought on seeing how overtuned Astrogoth was, 'That doesn't match his lore'.
He's supposed to have fallen from his prime due to that stone curse, reduced to his walking apparatus. If he were the unquestioned leader of the chaos dwarves, or the avatar of Hashut, or something like that then it would make sense for him to be one of the strongest lords (with higher cost natch). But his whole deal is trying to recover lost glory and power. And if this is how strong he is when crippled, what was he like at his prime? The Dwarf Everchosen?
I don't hate power creep, but this seems like a pretty sloppy example of it. Really I'd like it if instead of becoming tougher as he lost hp, he instead gradually lost either casting ability or speed as he further degenerated into stone. Or maybe casting itself would cause massive speed loss, forcing you to choose between a big caster or a big fighter, rather than right now where he's amazing at both at the same time.
Turning to stone could be shown even more by a slower attack speed aswellas move speed
Was he even fast on tabletop? When I saw his model I thought he was some trudging, heavy, dark sorcery-charged cripple. But they turned him into some anime robo mech, not just sprinting at 60 speed but jumping storeys high as well
He actually does get slower as he takes damage, but the speed decrease is unnoticeably small. He loses like 6 of his 60 speed throughout his health bar, while gaining up to 30% physical resistance.
Hope they fix him before release is out
@@TheBarser DLC will come out tomorrow so unlikely.
When basically every game is about "how to counter" the magma cannon, then its the cannon that is the problem and not other way around
You know a unit is overtuned when every match up revolves around the magma cannon. A single unit determines not a only a few tech picks, but it determines how your opponent has to constuct his entire army.
It’s def way to strong and to hard to take out same with astrogoth
Imo the magma cannon should have its range reduced to the 250-350 range, like the dwarf flame cannons. It would make it less absurdly good and it would make sense that a clump of magma can't travel as far as say a rocket.
Queen Bess also has the ability to wipe out strong infantry but it's crews are simple enough to take care of. Magma Cannon is just so hard to take offline. Have to basically build your army around it which as you said is crazy for one unit.
@@gunnerjensen5998 Queen Bess is also limited to 1, much more expensive, easier to dodge due to the slow projectile, has less armor, on and on. Magma cannons just do too many things right now. You can't have extreme range and extreme accuracy and extreme damage and be cheap. A few of those things have to give.
@@Kayosiv totally agree. Seems to almost always hit center mass. I get the idea of making cool new units but Chaos Drawfs certainly have a few VERY strong units.
Great match. The magma cannon is getting a bit stale though. Maybe it's how early match its so hard to counter or surprise eliminate like other factions artillery.
magma cannon is a 950 flame cannon with basically double the range.
flame cannons are 1300 and basically priced just right (1200 or some more range would be welcome).
magma cannons are ridiculously under priced. if the magma cannon cost 1200, then sending a couple boar boy big un behind ennemy lines would be worth the risk.
Keep in mind Bull centaurs easily crush any cav engagement early on, especially close to dwarf reinforcement points. With such awesome sweepers magma cannon can't be allowed to be that cost effective.
I don't think flame cannons are nowhere near this accurate with their short range either
I wholly disagree that flame cannons are priced just right, you basically never see them at all. As in the video, Turin wasn't even sure how much damage they do because no one ever uses them.
Magma cannons are for sure too good, but flame cannons are not the right measuring stick here. It's the same with bull centaurs and dragon ogres, yes bull centaurs are better than dragon ogres (and too good in general) but when did you last see dragon ogres be picked?
Flame cannon's are a horribly balanced unit that you almost never see. I don't even think they're really good in campaign. Dwarf units shouldn't really be the standard for balance because they have quite a few units you basically never see played. If anything, this is just an argument for buffing the flame cannon and other under performing dwarf units.
Ah yeah "priced just right" so that no one who isn't memeing ever uses them. "Only useful in memebuilds" seems like a rather strange goal of balancing a unit.
@@DerLoladin to the people saying the unit is a meme and badly priced, use it in a balanced army comp (i mean use it YOURSELF and get a feel for it). To me the flame cannon is sleeper op, maybe not op but sleeper great, especially combined with the RoR catapult for 24 moral debuff (32 as being hit by artillery counts as -8 i believe). VERY strong. Dwarf players problem is they usually don't get enough slayers imo. Flame cannons are perfect to balance out slayer's weakness to archers and infantry.
Magma canon's power should ring a bell to you that maybe this class of weapon has great potential... if you build around it.
Feel like Nasty Skulkers would be a big winner in this match up as a way to punch-up against chorf armour. Stalk keeps them safe from bombardment and unless CA patched it their MA & AP bonus is always active, plus at 500 gold they're relatively cheap and like Fanatics you can get huge value out of their ability.
I wonder about that. They'd probably get run over by Bull Centaur's and Wolf Raiders, though I wonder who'd win between them and the Sneaky Gits.
While I agree that Magma cannons need a cost increase or some other tuning, some other aspects of the chorf roster could use a buff honestly. Trains feel limp, K'dai are basically never used due to their squishy ness, the rocket launcher is underwhelming and elite chorf infantry gets eaten by magic due to their lacknof spell resist.
Perhaps make Astragoth more expensive, swap magma cannons and rocket launcher price tags while giving a slightly narrower spread on the anti infantry rocket, then give a small bit of love to the trains and give K'dai at least 110 armor and more health to the destroyer and then we should see a pretty balanced army with tons of options without beibg forced to run specific units every sibgle match up.
I wonder if Azhag might be better for this fight. On his wyvern he should be able to chase down the flying character, and he has Lore of Death for Bjuna and Spirit Leech (also Purple Sun for some fun). I was thinking thay in this game in particular he'd have been able to take the fight to the low HP Daemonsmith then Spirit Leech the low Astragoth. He'd also force your opponent to guard the Magma Cannons.
Edit: got to the end of the video, seems you have the same thought.
Haven't watched yet, here's my prediction:
Magma cannon/s massively overpreform/s
AFTER WATCHING:
Oh yes and astragoth rushes head first into grimgor, *2* giants, mass of orcs. And wins.
7:30 was the turning point for the battle
Bull Centaurs are even effective when routing xD
The magma cannons are what the dwarf flame cannons wish they could be. Mobile/harder to shut down, long range, high projectile velocity. On paper flame cannons will out damage them but a good opponent would never give them chance. Same reason you don't see many helblasters/organ guns. Short range + high shut down priority.
It's also thematic in that Grimgor is the sworn enemy of the Chaos Dwarfs as they were his former masters.
Think the cannons are just overpowered. Reminds me a lot on the chaos hell cannon. Way to precise, way to much damage.
Yep. When I first saw how devastating they were it was a single good hit on a full hp unit of Black Knights on the move. The Black Knights lost 60% of their hp from one shot... It doesn't seem the initial hit is that bad, it is the vortex and damage over time that chunks things down the most.
Just wondering... Most of the time when an army brings a big single entity centerpiece, people always bring two of them, not one. Double Giants, Double Stonehorns, Double Ironblasters, Double Terracotta, Double Phoenixes. Why are single entity builds always kind of an all or none deal?
Threat overload, same thing in 40k! People often bring multiple huge threats to overwhelm focus fire.
@@turinRTS Ohh, that makes perfect sense.
It's either threat overload or that if you only bring 1 single entity, they might get lonely.
Are you really going to make your giant friend sad? He's already in so much pain.
Like giving flame cannons some sort of spread mechanic like the magma cannon and increasing range would be a good buff.
Astragoth is like what Archaeon *should* be lol
Archaon is a proper raid boss since the WoC rework though, even stronger than Astragoth. 7000hp, 70/60/470 melee stats with AP and magic attacks, 120 armor with a bronze shield, 10% physical/15% missile resist, 94 speed, great buffs... Archaon already is what Archaon should be, even if it did take 6 years.
Hot take: Chaos Dwarf spellcasters should take way more damage from miscasts. After all, in the lore they literally petrify over time because they are somewhat allergic to magic.
On that note: I think they should nerf the MA and MD on Astragoth. I can accept that his magic robo-arms would hit pretty hard, but there's no way that they should have the same dexterity and control as someone with actual, functioning arms.
Karag Dum is where Gotrek killed a bloodthirster.
I hadn't realized there were so many races in this game until you started playing every matchup!
I wonder if the "wide line of cheap chaff backed double giant" strat works for the bone giant and cygors for TK and beastmen. It gives them artillery pieces that can fire out effectively without getting wasted by the magna cannon.
"Face to foot style!" I snorted my coffee at that deep cut 🤣
the amount of new builds and things people are going to try is going to be amazing, keep it up Turin you have me STOKED for this!
The ideal Chaos DW army probably involves 8 bull centaurs and 2-3 magma cannons rest just trash XD
Strangely enough, skaven destroys that playstyle, so does empire!
+ Astrogod!
Why did he suicide his Lord straight into your blob? Basically he only won this due to the magna cannons being omega strong.
Astrogoth wasn't lord, daemonsmith sorcerer was. And neither of them died.
I'd be so curious how a goblin-themed-build would do - wide as humanly possible, squigs and nasty skulkers for days and as many spiders as you can to poison things up.
I knew I'd hop into bed and Turin would jam out another pre sleepy time video with my favorite factions.
Wish trains could be used or were actually viable for multiplayer
They might be, we are just seeing the early gameplay and it usually takes a long while to figure out the meta.
You can attach trains in the customise option for units like skullcracker and the irondemon
As SE chariot units, they could be useful against Dwarfs.
A cinematic battle of this would be cool
IMO Magma cannons should be price adjusted to their closest role-equivalent - Helstorm Rocket Batteries. (Definitely not flame cannons considering how god awful they are for their gigantic price)
They fill the exact same role and can be just as devastating but I don't see anyone complaining about them needing to be brought up to 1300+ gold cost.
Turin really does love his Giants, doesn't he? ^^
Astrogoth just doesn't seem to have any real downside. You get the best of nearly everything. He's super mobile, large HP pool, good armor with very high combat stats oh and he's a caster. I'd like to see him get a pretty big nerf to his combat stats and some to his health pool. He can be "solid" in combat but not a terror but able to move around wherever he's needed.
Even stupid high mass.
turin: "they do-do--"
me: hehe 💩
you literally keep me up at night with these videos! , thank you for the late night blessing 🙏🏻
IDK if you saw but snotling pump wagons look like they've gotten a major buff having like 12 in a unit now, I wonder how they would perform vs chaos dwarfs now.
Astragoth only takes so little dmg from grimgor bc of the damage distribution. When a SEM has splash attacks (like everything) and it does a hit, it can only hit a certain number of large or small units. Example: if there are 4 infantry sized models in front of the unit, the damage gets divided by 4. If there are 1 large and 3 infantry sized, the large one gets priority and gets the full dmg. so u can duel with monsters in a blob fight. Problem is: Astragoth is infantry sized so the dmg he should get is divided. so he gets a little dmg and all the buffering infantry around him gets dmg too. that is why it is nearly impossible to goon an infantry lord in an infantry blob.
IIRC there's a target priority so the SE will get the full dmg even with chaff arond him if it was the main target
Personally think large units like arachnarok or more sneaky stuff with nasty skulkers which you could try to sneak onto their cannons (idk how they'd trade since they do have AP)
Hell you probably could send one giant entity to bitch slap those cannons with calvery support swarm.
i think the arachnorok spider could be a fun unit to use against mounted lords, centaurs, and even against chorf infantry
It'd be fun, but I think the bull centaur renders would just eat it alive.
Too large though. Magma cannons and rocket launchers would have a field day, not to mention the Bull Centaurs and Fireglaives
@@darthplagueis13 but the arachnarok also has antilarge plus spider summons. turin brought two giants here, and one survived to the end.
@@eagleguy7 The Arachnarok has anti-large, but it has really low WS for a monster in its price class.
Giants are much better at killing monstrous cavalry because they are better at taking out models.
Additionally, giants have just a lot more health and against a faction that has a whole roster full of AP, that's simply more valuable than the 120 armour on the queen.
The spiderlings are ok, but they tend to rout before they can be of much use.
Additionally, it's a matter of pricing. 2 large affordable monsters are better than one really expensive one, because it means the enemy cannot easily isolate and focus down a target.
The Queen is 2400. Two giants are 2800. For the 400 extra you get way more value.
The late night vids.. The consistency! Doing the people's work. Thank you again.
Either Azag or Grom, sneaky stabbers araknarock spider with 2 giants, arrows with poison, swigs, and orc boar biguns goblin shamman and ork elemental.
Bull Centaurs, Astrochad and ofc Magma Cannons seem a good bit overtuned
Reddit single players might cry a river, but the magma cannon and Astragoth really need some tuning down.
Nobody seems to be thinking about it, but single player needs to be balanced since you'll fight *against* those OP units too...
@@Welkor not to mention multiplayer campaign.
@@Welkor yes, this. Balance benefits SP too, but because MP has less distorting variables, balance tends to come from MP community. For SP, balance from MP community is like a parent making kids eat their vegetables. The kids cries and moans and plays victim, but the veggies are obviously good for them.
@@MostlyUnreadArmchairExpert Nah some units that are balanced for MP are straight up trash in SP
Who uses skirmish cav in SP unironnically?
No one because their strong points (safety and reliability) are not useful vs AI over the raw dps of a regular unit.
Who uses clanrats, stormvermins, gyrocopters, white lions, war wagons, kossovite dervishes, blood knights, grail reliquae etc ?
Cost effectiveness isn't a good thing when playing SP because the AI has more money but is way less efficient with its units so you want something that punches way above its grade vs a stupid opponent
Nerfing magic wasn't good for the game it made it less fun (tho arguably more balanced)
Please leave singleplayer alone, tune all you want in your multiplayer. I like having fun in singleplayer instead of most boring shit possible because muh balance
Hi Turin. Do you plan giving us more land battles of pre-release chorfs? I would love to see some more!
Foghorn leghorn knocked down a giant with his charge at 9:34 he's so broken lol
As per most DLC launches - Just wait for the balance patch
Learn your place grimgor! back to the mines!
Will you be casting the spring tourney?
wonder if he just pushed on the cannons with the giants at the beginning, he would have won. He brought these 2 expensive beaters to battle and for several minutes they just stood and did nothing guarding a point that was not being attacked.
Is this map new? Haven't seen this one before
Astrogoth probably needs a health debuff and mass reduction
10/10 Kung Pow reference.
Why not take the deathshriek rockets instead? Can't they double as anti large and wave clearing with their ammunition choice?
astragoth is bleeding! making him the victor... i dont understand why he has such stupid base stats, like why does he have 40 armor more than a destroyer?
Giants might be one of the good targets for the chaos missile artilleri.
Is Grom bad choice cos of regen? Dunno maybe Skarsnik would work better then Grimgor? I knw fluff stuff is strong for big orc:)...
Looking forward to playing Nurgle with the new buffs to plague toads and rotflies, but it does make me wonder if pox riders and plague drones are also being buffed.
Yes. The pox riders have armor piercing and increased speed and the plague drones have increased models, just like their lower-tiered counterparts
@@yupyupwassup6864 Nice, might actually use Pox Riders over Chaos Knights of Nurgle now in campaign
Defo play more Grimgor, hella entertaining
Grimgor wants 'is boyz back
Greenskin giants look is like "I have 5 IQ" ;p
Maybe trying 2 black orc big boss and a goblin chaman in his big spider giving stalk to the bobs to go after the magma canons its not a bad idea
Any plans to do a Chaos Dwarf campaign?
squigs really shouldnt be Large.
bull centaurs have scaly skin but no lizardmen unit has it
Should have swarmed the magma cannons if possible
Eh the magma canon was very good but Turin would probably win that objective if he hadn't summoned the Black orks. He allocated all of his resources into one bad apple and it pulled away units that could have supported the giants and grimgor.
Would skaven warp lightning cannon take down the magma cannon?
Maybe. from what I've heard and seen Chorfs can lose artillery trades against batteries like cannons, except for instances where the Deathshrieker is involved
So squids are large and Astragoth is infantry sized?
We demand more content master Turin
A foot character should not be able to knock over a giant. A health and mass nerf is warranted. I don't think that would impact campaign play too much.
Yaknow as an ogre onetrick I feel like something was stolen from me with the title
Try the assyrian grudge gnomes against the emo elves
EMPLOYEES RIOT, WAAAAAGH!!1
Hey, Turin. When is AoE4 coming? I am missing your streams
Basic game design when making a new character. Check the current lore. Is a CD sorcerer-king tougher and 'arder than the meanest orc? No. So give the CD less HP. Is he more armored than the most armored up dwarf in the lore? No. So give him less armor. Continue doing this for every stat and wow, its closer to balanced than whatever this offering is. Same with the magma cannon range, no idea where CA gets the initial values from. Its like a 13 yo making their first character. "Yeah, well, my CD sorcerer king is a half dragon half vampire half demon angel bard samurai paladin who is level 20, has +5 on every item, knows Wish, and can also do everything your character does..." I get they want them to feel strong so the munchkins buy the content but still lol
Those answers might surprise you actually. Is Astragoth tougher and 'arder than Grimgor? Seeing as how he has the Stone Mantle, the answer is yes, that item easily makes your Chaos Dwarfs into one of the toughest characters. On the tabletop, a character who suffered a miscast and was wearing the Stone Mantle would go up to Toughness 7, making them the toughest lord in the game that wasn't a demon (even Ogres, Dragons and the like would cap out at Toughness 6 at the most).
Are they more armoured than the most armoured Dwarf? Yes and no. This depends on how you gear them; the Chaos Dwarfs loved their armour just as much as the regular ones and they created an upgraded version of Chaos Armour to compensate which is superior to Gromril (it has the same save and offers fire resistance) using their own form of sorcery and craftsmanship. The only reason the Dwarfs can conceivably have more armour is because of their Shieldbearers, which are currently not in the game at all, and in that case you're taking a combined armour save of 3 Dwarfs rather than 1.
While you are wrong about the other stuff, you are right about the Magma Cannon. While it isn't super short range on the tabletop (it had a max range of between 26 and 36 inches) the distance they allow it to shoot here is way too far. It didn't have a Cannon's range before, and I don't think it should have a Cannon's range now.
Also the Chaos Dwarfs are pretty well balanced with only a few exceptions, the Magma Cannon being one of them.
@@lich109 Cool he gets armor then. See arguments 1-10. The point still stands even if you're obtuse about it. The character is way too overtuned. What you said only applies to a small part of his kit. Why is he as good a caster as Manfred if not better and can solo Franz and out mass a Hierotitan? As he is currently, its stupid. He can solo Archaon. Not sure you exactly understand the point I was making. A TTRPG lord with that item doesn't also become a giant, a dragon, a hellblaster volleygun, and a blood dragon life slaan.
@@casimirgythe2181 I'm not saying he should be left as is, he definitely needs a HP reduction, however Astragoth was a fantastic fighter on the tabletop so he should be a great fighter here as well. The reason is because of his mechanical limbs, when he swings he hits with metal and stone fists, and the more hits he lands, the more hits he gets to make, to the point where on the tabletop you could give him 6 attacks at S5 that automatically hit. That is enough to solo Franz with some luck, and that's why I'm fine with him being a good beatstick on top of being a great wizard, it's a part of his character.
Now he definitely should not be able to run as fast as he does, that I will argue since even though his mechanical body makes him faster, it should only put him into Ogre territory, if that. I'll also argue, like I said above, to lower his HP by a lot. Once his HP and speed are both lowered I think he'll be in a pretty good spot.
They only cost 950... WHAT
throw me a bone with a land battle please.
Turin, please don’t argue for these campaign breaking changes, if they nerf magma range then the bretonnians will have more range than chaos dwarfs.
Still holding a grudge for the poor salamander that is total trash since the MP focused nerf
I've noticed that over the course of the last few chorf videos that you are slowly becoming less of a fan of fidel castrogoth, LOL. He does seem a bit silly, as do magma cannons
Am I really seeing 2 giants in the same match
Chaos dorfs just have too many op units. They really have an answer for everything. Unfortunately that dosn't make a faction interesting or fun. I'd wager 1/2 their units need some sort of retuning or cost increases to balance them out.
Just what is that loading screen lord portrait? Grimgor is the "don't do meth" Donald Duck meme and the chorf lord is a low-poly NPC model from PlayStation 2. Whoever is in charge of the portraits should get his shit together because both 2D and 3D art is just terrible.
Shit, now it is not just even fun. It's just stupid and makes me sad. No joke, astragoth broken without any circumstances. He MUST be nerfed, without a doubt.
Such Hype!
HASHUT HASHUT HASHUT
I think Astragoth and Magmas need a nerf and a big one at that, not just a price increase.
Gotta make sales. Overpowered lord will make sales. Everygame likes to do this now.
Love it
I think this is the main reason i can't support this dlc, Astragoth being an insane duelist while being an insane tank and an spell caster like come on how does any one think that is balanced, then you have magma cannons who are seeminly only bad vs SEM's, they wreck most cav, they wreck light infantry and elite infantry and even some monsterous units, they are good in artillary duels i feel most people who are saying chaos dwarves are fine just have rose tinted goggles on, they have been waiting for chaos dwarves or so long they cant help but look past the BS and go its fine everythings fine, like i only play campaign but even in campaigs these overpowered units just make fighting races with them more of an annoyance then anything so i dont think you can say "oh its fine if its OP in campaign it doesnt matter" thats a pretty shallow way to look at it like campaign doesnt deserve balance
And also the centaurs don't get sent to Africa when they get pushed
every battle with chaos dwarfs, boooring, they are op atm or what?
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH
Let’s play some aoe4 brother
I'm getting a feeling turin doesn't like the dawi zarr too much, every video is like figuring how to beat them not how to play as them, getting rather repetitive.