Looking for Love on Pandora: PCG and Borderlands 2 | Design Dive
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ธ.ค. 2017
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In my fifth Design Dive video I take a look at Borderlands 2: a game that revels in procedural content generation for its looting system.
I explore issues of player bias and subjectivity with generative systems and why Borderlands really is a game about love.
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Music in this episode (in order of appearance):
"Short Change Hero" by The Heavy
The following tracks from the Borderlands 2 Soundtrack:
"Frostburn Canyon Combat"
"Main Menu Theme"
"Mad Moxxi's Bar"
"The Dust Combat"
"Sanctuary" - เกม
16:59 Something that feels bear, handles bear, shoots bear, reloads bear
I want a bear shotgun too
Thanks a bunch! I can't unhear this now.
Sounds more like be'er to me...
Sadly Bear Shotgun doesn't exist, but we do have a shotgun that shoots swords! They explode too, if that helps.
8:15 This is an excellent breakdown of the weapon part system... from Borderlands 1. Borderlands 2 made a good number of changes from that system:
There is no separate part called "magazine," it's the grip that determines magazine size, reload speed and fire rate.
The element of the gun is a separate "part," and explosive is not among its possible variants. The explosive "element" simply shows the weapon having an AoE effect. (In fact, all Maliwan weapons have a small AoE effect on their bullets, and if a hacker turns them non-elemental, they indeed show up as explosive.)
The accessory only provides an arbitrary boost to one of the gun's attributes (damage, mag size, etc.). Also, saying that the body of the weapon determines anything is kinda weird, since the body itself is strictly determined by the weapon's most basic parts: type/manufacturer and rarity (or "type" and "balance," as they are called in the gamefiles).
Rarity is an important weapon part that is decided on early in the generation process, and gives a marked advantage: a damage boost worthy of two extra weapon level ("manufacturer grade") per rarity level above white. (Although weapons with red text (and their own entry in the "balance" part list can be exempt from this.)
There is actually a pair of essays from of the BL2 developers on how they designed the loot system that provides further insight into the topic:
www.gearboxsoftware.com/2013/09/inside-the-box-the-borderlands-2-loot-system/
www.gearboxsoftware.com/2013/09/inside-the-box-evolution-of-loot/
wertuias I thought I'd be the only one here who knew all that good intel, as well as spending many hours on the forums
I can relate to the "weapon love". I cleared the second half of the game in co-op with two specific weapons and tried to keep using them even in NG+ when they were totally outclassed. To this day, my friends and I still have a nickname for those weapons.
finding the incendiary infinity pistol was a great find, it's only lvl 11 and I always put it back in the stash for future playthroughs
I had a shotgun that would shoot a half-dozen bouncy wavy orbs that would fly around ricocheting in the environment, and when it hit someone it would lifesteal and send white orbs swirling around back to me. I kept that in my back pocket I don't know how many levels past it was useful.
Any rate, I hadn't really considered the interaction aspect of the bigger pricture prior on this system. And it actually makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the vid.
'INTO SOMEONES FACEEEE'
Instantly subbed. You're hilarious. Also those mocking tones where you forcibly exaggerate your accent? Funny as hell, I hope to see more of/like that keeping up with your content.
I think the grip can have an effect on magazine size, actually. I say this because when people farm for an optimized version of a popular (read: ridiculously powerful) Torgue pistol, they hope for a Torgue-style grip so they can fire for longer without reloading. Wonderful video!
Yeah this comment's came up more than once. I guess I missed something in my research as it struck me that the grip didn't do anything? But hey, I'm happy to admit I'm wrong! Thanks for watching.
Great video, Tommy. I'm really liking your work. I think an honorable mention should go out to the original -Elite- for its procedural universe generation. Need is the mother of invention, and all that.
Brings back such vivid memories of getting a legendary........goddam cradle shield 😂😂😂😭😭😭😭😭😭
I actually had a shotgun that when you reloaded it you threw it at someone at it exploded like a grenade. Honestly that game was sick
All Tediore weapons do that.
I was gonna say i had rifles and revolvers that did that too lmaoooo
16:03, remember collecting all of the weapons with the bitch prefix in the original borderlands just for chuckles. It was a hyperion smg series that changed names with the different attachments. By far my favourite memories are obtaining a top tier cyan "Bitch Bitch" during the Claw Max boss fight in the last dlc of the first game. It was a great smg and to me it was one of a kind.
I sunk over 300 hours into this game, but I do wish the NG++ grind wouldn't have existed, and they'd just extend NG+ all the way to lv72. What made it worse was that legendary and seriph(?) weapons would be locked behind a *lot* of grind. Wish they'd at least guarantee those drops from bosses. Those weapons/gear were way too cool, and you would hardly get to use them.
Ojas Sarup this is why we farm the snowman and the treasure room!
The Unkempt Harold is a feckin' amaze-bollocks dispenser of death in pistol form.
You got me at 10:26 i use the underdome track as my alarm clock hahah, for a secon Ithought I'd spent a bit longer than intended marathoning your videos. An enjoyable time mind you.
I love hearing the breakdown of the mysterious allure bl2 has and how players respond to it. It’s worth mentioning though, the mechanics of the game go far beyond randomly generated weapons. The individual skill trees, unique weapons/ farming, enemy quirks and how all these things interact together bring the game life past gun variety.
Sure, I've found those weapons that just made me go "Wow, that's ridiculous", but I never got attached to them, really. This might just be because I played melee characters in both 2 and Pre-Sequel, so as long as it had a +50% melee damage attachment, anything else pretty much didn't matter. Every other weapon was merely for backup, be it some sort of sniper, a Second Wind rocket launcher or the ubiquitous slag weapon.
Nixitur I feel like you missed out on a lot of this game then bro
Might you need to be introduced to the rapier? Perhaps a slag evisceration Rubi? XD
awright pal
Really enjoyed this vid, I did do all this stuff when I played this game - just never thought about it :D
Just one thing I noticed at the end of your slow-mo voice segment at 16:32, there's a tiny clipping sound that could potentially be fixed with a fade out? Depending on what you use to edit. Also noticed you might need a fade out in between some of the audio that you cut and replace I guess?
Hope this unrequested feedback helps and doesn't come across as shitty or anything, meanwhile I'll be subscribing for more :)
Your videos are too good.
15:42
Tommy I fucking love you lmao
Just out of curiosity, how did you feel about the move away from mobs carrying playable guns and dropping what they were using? Combined with the tendency for guns to become obsolete faster, it felt to me like the mechanic in BL2 lost a little of its charm compared to the first game in that respect... now, there was more than enough in other improvements that I quickly got over that... but I wonder if you would agree with the devs that those changes were, in fact, an improvement on the game loop and the overall balance?
You can still have en enemy drop the weapon that he's using. It happens in lower rate though.
8:37 i thought the grips affected some manufacturer specific stats? like vladof grips have fire rate, hyperion has accuracy...
On one hand it creates the thrill of the hunt, which is just encouraging an endless grind, on the other hand it removes a large amount of skill from the game since damage can differ quite vastly based on how lucky someone has been. Eventually it became just easier to hack the inventory and be done with it, and then there was no more point in playing because the grind was made more transparently obvious.
Man, it's been a good five or six years since my time playing Borderlands 2. I remember picking it up for free with my PS+ subscription back in the day and getting positively enthralled for a good year or so until the subscription ended. After that, however, I never did find the motivation to get it again and finally finish the story.
Perhaps it's time to take another fateful journey to Pandora.
So you got toasted by Mad Mike too, huh? :D
Borderlands 2 is the only game I play that has to overshadow my issues with its inception and creators, and I'm pretty bull-headed ignoring games I've really looked forward to on "political" grounds (predatory practices or design-lifting without credit). (228 hours on steam, I think that is like a top 7 game for me)
edit:
To me the style(looking like a comic-book, thanks Ben Hibon) its the humor(nihilistic/dark random) coupled with the ridiculous generation system kind of breaking the 4th wall by all being ludicrous and making that a part of the game instead of letting any one absurd part become a outlier. (re-take: They embrace the absurdity of the underlying world/system/AI and build on it well with its humor and comic-book graphical style)
And then you find out your friend has a shield that ignores 98% of all hits
borderlands (any of them, i played 1 and 2): it's pleasantly relaxing to walk around, shooting everything with the random effects you got.
That's is. If there ever was a "shooter" that made no sense without the "looter" part, Borderlands is it, and personally, I don't consider that to be a good gamedesign.
But it was effective.
But "good" and "effective" are two different things.
borderlands 2 was something else 💖
Tommy: Take a look at RimWorld. It's loaded with PCG at every turn.
Personally I like changing guns more than I like having a cool one. I recently did a playthrough and ended up playing with the bee shield and fibber as anarchist, which wildly outstripped the power of any other gun I'd been using, but then the more i played it, the more i resented the fibber and bee for being so good that I couldn't really consider changing gun without taking a massive hit to my viability as a character.
love this video :) sub
Yeah I get being attached to a gun. Hell in fallout 3 I've always got at least one gun I never let out of my sight. And it's usually my go to for when stealth is no longer an option.
I call her 'Vera'. The gun generation was very cool - I always enjoyed the way they tied the manufacturers into the algorithmic constraints. I don't know how many people were really aware of what was going on there, but I appreciated it. If only the weapons actually had more kick and Borderlands, as a series, wasn't such a bullet sponge filled experience I'd remember it more fondly. But it ultimately feels anaemic, massively outstays its welcome, and props itself up on a flimsy attempt at comedy that barely sustains itself past the first flaccid attempt at humour.
B2 is and always will be, a classic game
lee1davis1 *BL2*
Amazing video too bad he didnt give a single mention to the legendary guns which are as well as procedurally generated also not like (my favorite the unkempt harold) (and the veruc)
Funnily enough the narrative is also largely about how the villain experiences love towards all things, people and even himself in unhealthy and ultimately destructive ways. Huh.
So I got the part that Tommy was in, but who was that guy chatting shit about Borderlands in between Tommy's questions?
I've spent more time on this game than any others combined.
Oh yeah, I remember using my T-tech dart pistol for half the playthrough cause it was just so amazing. So you might be right!
And this sniper rifle... I call her... Lyuda...
umbaupause actually it's an E, not T
Only weapons I ever kept past their level range were the rocksalt, because I love fully automatic shotguns. The Bumblee, because the shield part was trivial anyway and the bonus damage still allowed for a huge DPS increase. I also kept slag weapons, but they just needed to tag an enemy with slag and then I could switch to a potent weapon.
I did end up favoring certain manufacturers over others though, I hated Vladof and Tediore, but I adored Jakobs and to a lesser extent Bandit.
Yzerbrøh you mean the bee shield
unfortunately biggest advantage of Borderlands 2 is also biggest flaw for me. Abundant amount of weaponry, but insufficient storage space to test them and to keep rare ones for fun..
This was totes amaze. Time to fire up Borderlands 2 for another 40 hours...
"Why do you like Borderlands when there's better shooters like ____"
My Rifle is an Acid Rocket Launcher, my Revolver is a Shotgun, my *actual* Shotgun *Talks,* my SMG shoots Toxic Sludge *AND SCREAMS LIKE IT'S GETTING SHOCK THERAPY,* and my Grenade is a *FLAMETHROWER MERRY-GO-ROUND THAT SHOOTS INCENDIARY ROCKETS LIKE A LAWN SPRINKLER.*
Your M4 is nice, but *IS IT HOLY FUCKING DUMBASS AWESOME?*
I rest my case. *shoulders his Sniper Rifle that's a Lightning Gatling Cannon
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to find a Rocket Launcher that fires *BEEEEEEES!!!*
Rather than an example of good procedural content generation, I hold Borderlands as an example of lackluster or flawed generation. The system elements are so heavily restricted, with so little variety and so little allowed range, that the various weapons generated quickly become boring. BL2 does improve a bit over BL1, which was truly terrible in that regard, but it still isn't great.
shame this game is STILL broken on nintendo Switch
Dude, when you make a 20 min long rant about a procedural system, make sure u understand all the parts of the system first. I still agree with your view and get your point, but the discrepancies take away from the content.
совершенно ужасная фоновая музыка!🤮 а контент чоткий💗
first?