MISTAKE to recommend these? Tweeter Protection Capacitor Test!
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 มิ.ย. 2024
- When we run a system active in custom car audio we need to use a protective capacitor on the tweeters to protect them in the event that the active crossover fails. But does adding this passive crossover tweeter protection capacitor actually ruin the sound? Do these add latency or delay, and what is the impact on phase? Let's test and discuss!
🔊 Easily install car audio with a step-by-step Crutchfield MasterSheet!
✔️ New Customer? Get $20 to spend by signing up! www.crutchfield.com/I-rCAFcYT...
✔️ Existing Customer? Check out the CAF fan offer! www.crutchfield.com/i-rCAFcYTB...
Thank you to Crutchfield for being a monthly channel sponsor!
🔊 Want more? Check out these links:
✅Car Audio Tutorial Library: bit.ly/CAFlearn
✅ FREE weekly training program: bit.ly/CAFlist
✅ Box Designs, BUILD YOUR OWN BOX!: bit.ly/CAFdesigns
✅Join the CAF Patreon Member Team: bit.ly/CAFpatreon
🔊🔊🔊 FULL VIDEO SERIES PLAYLISTS:🔊🔊🔊
- Ported Downfiring Subwoofer Build: bit.ly/CAFdownfire
- Dad's Sound Quality Daily Driver Build: bit.ly/CAFdadsSQ
- SEMA F150 Subwoofer Box Build: bit.ly/CAFf150
- LOUD Wrangler Build - bit.ly/CAFloudwrangler
- SQ Grand Cherokee Build - bit.ly/CAFgrandcherokee
- Stealth Hidden Bass SQ Build - bit.ly/CAFstealthaudio
Here at Car Audio Fabrication I teach you how to Master Car Audio in an effort to Design, Build, and Install your ideal car audio system. Whether you are a hardcore basshead or a HiFi focused audiophile I would love to have you subscribe and join our community!
SUBSCRIBE
th-cam.com/users/subscription_c...
LET'S CONNECT!
Website: www.caraudiofabrication.com/
Facebook: / caraudiofabrication
Instagram: @caraudiofab
Snapchat: @caraudiofab
Music:
No Music
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0
Use of information from this video is at your own risk. You MUST view the full disclaimer here: www.caraudiofabrication.com/di...
Car Audio Fabrication - Master Car Audio - Design, Build, Install - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
![LISA - ROCKSTAR (Official Music Video) REACTION [SHE'S BACK!]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QBxE30vavMQ/mqdefault.jpg)
![แฟนแนวใด๋ - ยูริ โตเกียวมิวสิค [OFFICIAL MUSIC VIDEO ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4_XVMuhhbsU/mqdefault.jpg)
One tip for installing caps for tweeters... I was getting popping sounds in my tweeters that coincided with bass hits. It was bass-volume dependent, meaning increasing bass gain knob but leaving the master volume constant would increase volume of the tweeter pop. After a bunch of troubleshooting I finally realized that the capacitor was installed too close to my bass amp, and was picking up electrical interference from the amp. Simply re-routing the tweeter's speaker wire away from the bass amp cleared everything up.
Good troubleshooting info. I haven’t had that problem personally, but if I did then that would’ve been something helpful to check out. Crazy how simple some things can be but cause so many complications
I have that problem but without the caps being close to the amp. It must be something else for me like wires too close
@@jamescorfield534 I could see that. I imagined it was the caps, but maybe it was just the tweeter wires themselves being too close and picking up the interference.
@joshhaimes I have the exact same issue in my system and for the life of me I can’t manage to sort it out. As soon as I increase the bass gain it’s almost like the tweeters are playing bass and a lil popping sound too.
I’ve moved the cables for the tweeters away from the sub amp and it’s a bi-amp crossover.
@@seanmichael2777 That sucks. Are the tweeter wires close to anything else that would have current with bass? Like power wires or something?
You went WAY above and beyond on this one Mark! Outstanding scientific method on display here.
Great video! I love these ones where you investigate technical stuff like this for those of us who don't have the equipment to do it (or are just too lazy lol)
Nice testing and it shows it's a great thing to add for safety
Seven and a half minutes of 'jam it'. Excellent. Good work!
ty, was curious about the phase change from these high pass caps
Thanks for that video! It saved my a twitter or two.
I'm gonna replace them anyway, but they are still working after DSP disabled high pass filter when I switched -6dB/oct Bessel filter to Linkwitz.
Capacitors have been used to limit the frequency sent to tweeters long before car audio was a thing. They have been used in home audio forever. No worries, they work.
The concern here is using a passive crossover in addition to an active crossover. Lots of internet experts claimed you had to make adjustments for it, but Mark's measurements show it has virtually no effect on the desired operating frequency of the tweeter if you choose the right value for your capacitor. In short, it's a safe way to ensure you don't fry your tweeters with high current low frequencies when the software for your active crossover resets or sends a turn-on pop or something down the line. Or, in my case, I accidentally switched my midrange output with tweeter output, wish I had a capacitor in-line that day. Instead, I have a dead tweeter on my workbench that serves as a reminder.
I removed the caps and tweeters sound so much better. I don't think caps are only needed in high wattage situations. Otherwise they dampen the tweeter sound.
Any active crossover will have delay a lot more than anything passive, but the plan is to pass all the signals into the dsp so everything is in sync coming out.
I have 4x 4ch 800w rms at 4ohm amps feeding my dash and doors. This is a full active 4way setup on a 16ch dsp I have 8 15in subs on 8 amps, all individually chambered and ported. This lets me do time alignment and phase control to an extremely fine level.
I can stack the bass pressure wave to focus at a single point in the cab.
I just started building a much, much larger version of this on a semi trailer for burning man.
The advantage of adding a capacitor to the tweeter input line is, that you can install a 2-way system with the tweeter wired out-of-phase just like you would intentionally wired the mid-bass or midrange put-of-phase on a 3-way system. An out-of-phase installation would give the sound system better slopes at the cutoff frequencies and deeper, cleaner transient response...
This may be a vague question but.... Where did you learn about car audio? Was it an accumulation of knowledge over a number of years or have you just always been a car audio guru? Genuinely curious. It's fascinating. Cheers!
Cool video. Shows how sensitive placement is and why the sweet spot is so small on my time corrected home setup.
Right! I was thinking I'd have to move the mic a foot before detecting any difference but I could literally touch it and it would be noticeable on the graph.
@@CarAudioFabrication love the video my question is when you have speaker built with tweeter that is 2,3 or 4 way how you safe them from be damage how you protect them from no blowing up burn?
Man you definitely know your stuff, impressive 👊
I called Morel and asked if they had any suggestions for a capacitor value for their Piccolo tweeters. This one tech (who may not represent all of Morel), said that they don't recommend capacitors as it adversely affects or may adversely affect the sound. Since I'm brand new to DSPs/Active, I thought maybe I might put a capacitor inline at the amp side to protect the tweeters, at least until I get the system tuned up and I'm no longer worried that I might accidentally send too much low signal to the tweeters and blow them. At least the capacitor wouldn't be buried in the dash or the A-pillar. That might also allow me to test whether I can audibly hear any difference as I'd prefer to have some protection. Thanks for this video as it seems to suggest that using a capacitor should be a good idea.
Do you have any videos of your recommendations for car tweeters?
coming from the 80's... the phrase "to the max" was a throwback. 😅🤣😂
Awesome video.
Hello and thanks for the review. Quick question. I'm wanting to run some 3-inch mid highs in my dash. To block heavy bass frequencies, can you recommend the best passive inline capacitor caps uf/v to run? Thanks!!!
Since you always use JL what cap should be used for a c3-100ct.
Hi sir
I am Satish from Hyderabad.I saw your TH-cam video on dual voice coil connection.
that was a cool test. didn't think there would be much of a delay and certainly not one you would hear. one thing you didn't mention though is how various caps all sound different on a tweeter. if you take a basic electrolytic, mylar, a solen and a clarity csa you'll hear a slightly different sound out of them. for a few dollars more that clarity is a warmer sounding cap. anyone questioning this can try it themselves for a few dollars buying each at one of the various vendors like madisound. your phase test was really cool too. in theory it should be off 90deg....but....it wasn't ! testing beats theory every time
In those cases, the capacitor is in the passband of the driver so yes you might be able to hear differences and see that shift. This is so far below the passband that an electrolytic is fine.
@@BaddDukk try it
Hello, do I need an amplifier for tweeters or they can be connected with the speakers
So, I can use capacitor instead of using crossover because with crossover I need to get 2 pair of wires to each door?
I set High pass crossover settings on my HU on 100Hz for my front and rear speakers(door speakers) and Low pass on 100Hz for my Sub. I have budget car audio for now, only sub is connected to amp, while door speakers are still connected only to HU.
I have 4ch amp for door speakers but I still doesn't have stronger speakers which require amp(have two, but two are still factory speakers).
Because of low budget I'm buying little by little.
How do you keep the bass from blowing them
and the same high pass filter blocks different frequencies depending system impedance...
Not really a delay, but a phase shift. I checked in rephase, series cap is a first order high pass, so if we tune it to 1kHz, we get about 45, 25, 19, 13 degs on 1,2,3,4 kHz respectively. Impossible to hear. By the way, if you are using dsp you can linearize this back with FIR filters, but they cause actual delay.
What head unit are you using?
Does the capacitor change ohm of signal?
phase and delay were compared to midrange?
Quick tip, just learned you can use two non-polarized caps joined back/back in series to replicate a non-polar cap, the two polar caps (normal kind you can find everywhere) just create a non-polar of half the rated F value of the cap, much much cheaper (free, caps are everywhere in broken electronics) to make this way.
Which passive crossover capacitor do i need for the infinity 4032cfx (4inch) speaker?
400V - 1.5UF capacitor is good?
Capacitors do not add latency for audio because they act as a short for AC signals. That being said they do limit the slew rate (rise time) which results slower transients. No one can hear this change, but it is visible in the RTA. Less pronounced spikes, rounds the points
Are capacitors and crossover the same? If not which one is better?
Glad that a simple cap doesn't really matter, but how about testing a full blown 3-way L/C passive X-over VS full active X-over for delay and phase shift? Thanks.
Perhaps in the future if enough people ask 👍
@@CarAudioFabricationwe’re askin
@@CarAudioFabricationplease
Muy interesante. Saludos desde España.
OK so if I have a 4 ohm mid and a 4 ohm super tweeter with a capisitor in between them hook on one channel..what is the final ohm load of that channel ..2 ohm or is it still gonna be 4 ohm ?
Caps for tweeter use for highpass 6db filter , am i wrong ?
i change my speakers in my A5 the door tweeter is 4 ohm and get a new one jbl at 3 ohm. can u use the original Capacitor ?
I think the delay is in charging the cap, but once charged a tweeter is not like a sub and I doubt it will tap the capacitor for extra power like a sub would. I could be wrong, I havent done the math on it and each system is different on how it runs and how fast it can charge. It would be interesting to see if different material type caps would act differently.
Hmmm, perhaps more testing in the future...
You're not charging the cap. It's in series, essentially an a/c coupling device with its F3 pole a bit lower than the active crossover you're supplementing with. In electrical theory, it is a single order 6db/octave high pass RC filter with one pole where freq response =1/jwC, where w=freq and C=capacitance value (ignore j). Phase should be 45deg out at the F3 (3db cutoff), though audibly in a car it should not be noticeable due to all of the acoustic reflections, etc. As mentioned elsewhere, the physical chemistry of the capacitor affects the sound more than the filter phase physics.
You are confusing the use of large capacitors in a 12v direct current power source vs use in an alternating current as such with an audio signal. The former is wired in parallel with your power system (alternator and car battery), and acts as a small fast discharging battery. The latter is wired in series and will stop current from flowing when it reaches capacity, thus protecting our speaker from high current audio signal.
Its been a while since my electrical theory classes, but phase should only max out at the F3 cutoff at 45deg, so as long as you're picking the F3 value significantly lower than your active crossover F3 point, there shouls be negligible phase delay from the 6db/octave pole the capacitor creates in the a/c frequency response.
Even if there was a significant time delay, with the system being active, wouldn´t a time alignment correction solve the issue?
Yep! But still good to see if there is in fact a change or not.
Is there a way I can get a knukonceptz distribution block signed by you please good sir?
You're one of the DIY car audio gods ❤
In this iam having a speaker 8" 4ohms 800watt dual coil sub woofer.
For this speaker suggest a suitable amplifier board.
If you need assistance picking gear for your application we can assist here: www.caraudiofabrication.com/consultations Thanks for watching!
I don't like electrolytic caps or iron core inductors in my speaker networks, to my ears they smear the sound vs poly caps and air core inductors. If you do a side by side you should be able to hear what I'm talking about. Its the subtle things in life that I seek.
In the car I have a pioneer that has 3 sets of crossover able outputs, I was able to take the poly caps and air core inductors out of the network and wow what a huge difference in everything. I am defiantly thinking about adding a safety cap, will probably have to get a big one as the tweeters are crossed at 1600Hz @24dB.
I, too, have heard the passive crossovers can cause latency. I wonder if it's the woofer that will be affected rather than the tweeter 🤔
.
Thanks for the definitive proof!
Perhaps another test in the future! If I had to wager a guess I would say not enough to matter, install location will easily have more of a change. I could BARELY move the mics and detect change so I think that's what it will always boil down to. When you have a DSP and can time delay anyhow any latency is easily corrected.
@@CarAudioFabrication another test it is! Maybe a phase test could be incorporated into it as well. I can't help but to think what is essentially a transformer in passive crossover may change the phase simply by how transformers work
@@CarAudioFabrication how do you even use DSP? Cause i always see people install them for mexican music but then cant even play rap cause it makes subs sound like butt? Are they just using it wrong? (I mostly see epicenters and them spider ones 😂)
@@hondaservicecenter that’s not a proper dsp…
@@hondaservicecenter están bien gueyes yo vivo en nuevo casas grandes Chihuahua y nadie save como conectarse correctamente un epicentro original n saven como moverle a las perillas jajajajaa les falta mucha cultura
Hey, Even though my system has a passive crossover and a DSP the tweeter seems to vibrate or makes a weird noise during deep base tracks, anything specific to watch out for, Thanks in advance..!!
the crossover slope might not be steep enough keep unwanted frequencies out. if you are just using capacitors on the tweeter circuit, the slope would be like 6db/per octave below the xover point, which is pretty shallow, and unwanted frequencies will still creep through, causing over-excursion of the tweeter diaphragm, causing distortion and possibly damage. try using a crossover with a steeper roll off, quality component systems typically use 12/db per octave slopes, which provide better protection. with some active crossovers, the slope can go up to 24 db/oct, although 12-18 db/oct is more common. keep in mind that if your dsp is feeding signal to your mids and highs as well, boosting the bass on your dsp will increase the bass signal going to these speakers, causing distortion as well.
Does using a heat gun on heat shrink to cover the resistor damage it from excessive heat?
It's a capacitor, not a resistor, but yes, if you heat it up too much you can cause damage. Heatshrink tubing typically shrinks at around 70 degrees Celsius. Capacitors have their operating range printed on them, usually between 85 and 105 degrees Celsius.
@@chrishuyler3580 we deal in Fahrenheit in the United States. So could you please change the Celsius to farenheit please?
@@russellcrabtree5314 sure, heatshrink shrinks when it’s kinda hot, capacitors fail when they get REALLY hot, and remember, your heat gun is not a hair dryer.
meaningless. The heat shrink will shrink and seal long before you'd hurt the caps.
Active for the win
Hope the JL Max becomes more affordable at some point. It’s amazing but too expensive for most people.
It's not really meant to be a tool that most people purchase. It's meant for shops, people that test product, or high end enthusiasts that tune frequently. Lowering the price point would mean removing functionality.
It's almost like saying adding 1mm more of wire is going to change the latency of a speaker..
the latency is not audible however, it would only be detected as the capacitor is not yet full.
👍👍
❤❤❤
****The microphones reminded me of the Chipmunks, looks like it's their soundstage.
Great YT! Is there an Antenna Booster for my car?
90* faze shift
Does running a 4ohm speaker at 2ohm hinder its frequency response? Hypothetically, if a speakers low frequency is 50hz at 4ohm, running at 2ohm would double the cut off at 100hz?
As a professional installer for 23 years now i do passive and active systems a lot. However, if im going active im not putting a cap on a tweeter or i would have just used the passive xover. Dsp's hold settings regardless of power cycles so it seems like an unnecessary step imho
Never had an amp go down and dump DC into a speaker? Never had an owner mess with their DSP and reset the crossovers? You're super lucky I guess.
Oh, installing since 1987, so like 36 years, but what does that matter?
You're not really "putting a passive crossover on it" since you choose a value outside the pass band you intend to use. It's extremely cheap insurance. Many high end component tweeters even include it.
Just wait till you have a corrupt tune file load on DSP because the battery voltage was lower than what you thought. Or when customer has vehicle battery go dead and it loses the tune. It makes sense to protect the tweeter.
I have heard it will also protect from turn on and off thumps from the amplifier. Different types do sound a little different especially with high end (very revealing) tweeters.
@@caseytbss Since when does a DSP lose the tune if battery is dead😂
No human ear will tell the difference if someone says that can tell their lying or honestly they believe it an their mind is playing tricks on them 😂🤷
With a DSP caps are not necessary. It's simple. If you don't trust your DSP why are you using a DSP?
If you want random pops go ahead, add caps to tweets. Caps are like training wheels on a bicycle or a grip safety on a firearm.
in other words DON'T use passive xover EVER
Nice three minute long "sit down and shut up" :D
Bald guys that can't let go of the 80s...😂
So you're not a car stereo enthusiast Why are you here?
@@VirtuousWarrior-wr2fv I was really just making a joke, but I can say whatever tf I want to dad. But thanks anyway.
Once again another myth busted.....
electricity travels at almost the speed of light, not a problem