I found this episode really interesting. JBP played a significant role in my personal return to the Catholic faith, precisely because of his rational, existential argument for God. But this only leads to a certain point, namely the point where it is ostensibly a matter of deciding whether God is real or not, which has been very well elaborated in today's discussion. JBP's argument for faith as a pre-rational, not irrational, act really resonated with me. It is the personal experience, the trusting surrender to God or the great adventure of life that makes the experience of God's presence possible in the first place. God is there and he is waiting for us - with open arms...
The conversations where someone pushes back on jordan with some really compelling arguments are the best. And this may be my personal favorite, Jack Symes is a very respectful and intelligent man, I hope we can hear more from these two
I can't get enough of these discussions. It's so nice hearing people have discussions instead of arguments.. especially about topics as important as these. Thank you Dr Peterson as well as your guest. Both of your points of view built on each other very well.
I really enjoyed this one a lot. Jack Symes is someone who can stand toe to toe with Jordan and also provide great synthesis, which made for a great and fruitful discussion.
@@ryand1404 I did not see your reply, I assume it was well-reasoned and gentile. Ahem. I am generally in favor of Dr. Peterson however I am skeptical of his followers' "belief", I think he's actually an atheist.
@@-TriP- Yeah he’s a great help to people. He just sometimes tries to narrow God down too much to the point his conception of God sometimes seems purely psychological. On the other hand, since he’s a psychologist, maybe that's just the way he approaches everything.
Dearest Dr. Peterson, what you were saying about imagining yourself as the Auschwitz guard… and I’ve heard you say that many times before… reminds me very poignantly of a spiritual, emotional, and intellectual exercise we Christian fundamentalists used to do in order to prepare our hearts and minds to receive the sacrament of Holy Communion, which we called “remembering the Lord in His death.” An unspeakably holy and sacred thing for us. We identified ourselves with the jeering crowd who called for Christ’s crucifixion. We identified ourselves with the onlookers who mocked His sufferings. We knew ourselves to be at one with the Roman soldiers who swung the hammer and pounded the nails. We knew in the deepest part of ourselves that we were guilty of the death of our Lord. And we knew that His death was for our redemption and our forgiveness. With St. Paul, we knew ourselves to be crucified with Christ. With Ruth Anne’s love
Thats deep, I never knew that was a thing christians did, but I can see how that would compel one to find the revelation and spiritual awakening in christ that so many christian have. Is that what we are missing?
I didn't know who Jack Symes was before entering. Now my interest is peaked. Will be exploring this soon. And finally we have a podcast on the problem of defining God. This problem had been my number 1 question to people before I became Christian. What is God? Who is God? We could not hope to find or determine the existence of something that we don't even know.
@@donaldmcronald8989 That's only from your perspective I suppose. Historically, it seems that people have found him in approximations and through the names of God built their societies.
@@SbonisoMMDlamini That's not discovery. Those gods were never found. I can posit the existence of anything beyond my death, and you'll never be able to take it away from me. No syllogism can defeat it.
@@donaldmcronald8989 Sorry but you are saying it as if anything you could posit could hold a society together in any reasonable way or amount. That's simply a gradation in difference you don't appreciate. And why is it that you act as if there is always something beyond death in these stories...
Matthew 5:44-45 King James Version 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
If your christian god decided to transition into a man in the 1st century, then how can you go around asking people: "What is a woman?" You ascribe to God what you deny for atheists. Have you no sense?
I love conversations like this that make me dive deeply into my own beliefs. It's a bit mind warping to think deeply about these huge concepts, but I've grown to love that feeling
Really wish JP would invite a Bishop Robert Barron into these discussions. Or at least to reflect on this interview. Please upvote to see that happen...
He has had Bishop Robert Barron on already, but I can see you mean as a regular thing. You'd have more chance getting in touch with BRB to do response videos on his own channel.
I would posit that there's a difference between definition and truly understanding what you define. Defining something doesn't by nature make it greater or lesser but the level to which we accept that we truly and fully grasp something definitely says something about you. ❤
@@grietjie93 I strongly suspect that the reason nobody defines what their "God" is, is because they don't have understanding. And if they were to attempt to define it then their lack of understanding would become apparent. So they are living in darkness while attempting to appear that they are living in light.
@@KevinSolway a) that doesn't mean the Christian God whom they are mostly speaking of here by definition is undefineable :) and also I think nobody is a pretty strong term :) why do do you say nobody?
@@grietjie93 "the Christian God whom they are mostly speaking of here" I have no idea what "the Christian God" is, since it is never defined. And I know for a fact that different Christians have completely different ideas of what God is. I say "nobody" because I've watched hundreds of videos such as these, and nobody ever defines what they are talking about.
Christ is not on the top of the ladder. He is the ladder. Therefore, welcome to the ladder and fulfillment on every step. "Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”
This is an extraordinary conversation on the most fundamental quest of the human "soul" by two brilliant, kind, respectful and articulate deep thinkers I have ever encountered. What is the meaning of life, and especially suffering. I would ask other listeners to not only listen to their arguments, but, most importantly FEEL what happens to you deep in the center of your being during certain passages from both participants. You may even notice as I did an evolving symphony akin to Brahms Piano Concerto #2, my favorite composition, from one of the speakers. The ebbs and flows of a coherent theme punctuated by passages of pathos, complexity and heroic grandeur are my best way of describing the deep emotional resonance I felt from this "composer". Mark Berry
Interesting -- I would have thought this discussion is a demonstration of free will. I believe there's a real logic which requires belief in the monotheistic God ... man is too chaotic to be a result of evolution. That said, free will permits discussions like this. It also dictates that freedom of thought, freedom of expression and freedom of speech are a requirement to live life correctly. Because we don't have all the evidence, and our thoughts only become real when spoken. Thus speaking produces the evidence which leads others (and often ourselves) to seek God, and become saved.
I love you jordan peterson. Your meekness is beautiful. I have always been terrified of death even as a child....I needed to find God and Christ. It is hard for me to understand that not everyone is like me. I found a faith that is unshakeable. The Lords prayer connected me to god. The most important thing I have ever done is to put God at the top of my life....to love those that hurt me..to pray for my enemies...and to watch my words...its all about his words
What a delightful Episode. Watching the insightful discussion, and attempting to get close to clarity, with precise steps and illumination in a swamp of murky and unsure-footed subject matter! Thank you to you and your guest for the acute listening and mutual cross-interrogation.
Amazing. I'm a Peterson fan, and I enjoy (and rate) Jack hugely. I first saw Jack debate Stephen Law, and that was dense but astounding. I'd love to see a round two to this. Symes brought out the best from Peterson.
I feel like that too. When JBPs views are opposed to a nihilistic and agnostic one, the meaning shines through even stronger. I do wish JBP would’ve opposed him harder though. I think he’s trying to interrupt his guests less since the Elon Musk interview, but in this instance it meant he couldn’t crystallise his views as well as he might’ve. For example, when the guy compares the Bible to Harry Potter… of course the Bible is more real and more full of truths. Because it documents thousands of years of moral wisdom and western society and culture have been closely linked to it for hundreds of years. He kept strawmanning the belief in God as this nice lie that makes you feel better instead of the crushing moral obligation that JBP believes it is.
@@barry.anderberg People think this is a war between your God and their God or Gods... It is not, Christianity is a great manifestation and hierarchization of the divine structure of reality through the human experience of good and evil. It is not the only one but probably one of the best if not the best (its the basis of western values and society which encompasses human rights and freedom or atleast the ideal of such concepts). So it is not their God thats superior, is their interpreation of the evidence of right and wrong paths that humans, with their inherited agency, can choose to follow.
Jesus is part of the Godhead. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Unfortunately some who claim to be Christian may in fact be self-deluded. If they were born again Christians you would know it by their "fruit". Galatians 5:22 The way they discuss the uniqueness of Christ would be loving, not arrogant. I apologize for their attitude because it brings reproach to our Lord and Savior, Jesus of Nazareth. No one else was able to atone for all of mankind's sin, and that is why Jesus is Supreme and Lord of Lord's and king of kings! Amen and God bless 🕊 @@شهریار_شهپری
@@شهریار_شهپری Cristian beliefs tend to go to a moral and absolutely good God like many other religions think, but then stop and think "i know that i am not absolutely good like God, how can i, dirty like hell, be in the presence of something so pure without destroying it's godness and purity?" The response comes from god who came in flesh and said: i, jesus, will become sin and die for you. So now all your sins died with me in that cross, try to do as i do, belief in me and i will grant you forgiviness for all your sins so you can be in my presence, by my side. Thats why god is in a cross, not because he denied human suffering but became part of it. It's not as simple as it's seems on the outside, like its jesus or hell, because it comes from a place of "i want to be good" and jesus says: The world will not forgive you, it will punish you and put you in a cross like it did with me, but i will forgive you if you be at my side and fight your own fight every day. Its a sad state that even the cristians dont know how to propagate the principles of cristianity.
I absolutely loved this discussion. Caused me to deeply think about how I view my own beliefs and I’m eager to watch this again to get a better understanding. Can’t wait to read his book also
Interesting how the guest tries to place Jordan in a box by defining where he stands … exactly. Jordan does not go there at all but rather goes back to concepts without stakes in the ground.
You talked about how reason can't give you the ultimate motivation to reach the transcendent good and all I could think about was Virgil in Dante. A higher motivational state, Beatrice, has to carry Dante into the upper levels of the ladder because reason can't get you to Heaven. You need the love beyond reason to achieve the divine state of being. Great show guys. Really made me think.
As for defining God, St. John already did that. “God is Light. God is love.” Meaning that the very essence of God is Love and Light, neither of which properties can be defined by our science. Ineffable, as you say.
@@pluff22no they have not. Energy can be observed in it's effects, and characterized or quantified in certain ways, but what it "is" cannot be defined. This is not even a religious position but is manifestly the case, period. Is light a wave or a particle or both or neither or does it depend? And what is "it", the actual thing behind our observations? If you think science knows the answer, you're in fact not familiar enough with the science, let alone philosophy which is necessary for science to be possible and meaningful.
@@KevinSolwaylove isn't so much defined as it is demonstrated, since love is more properly a verb than a noun. If love has no object or action, it is nothing, other than what we might claim as a feeling, but love is not a feeling. Love in the Bible is defined via descriptions of demonstrations, namely; the sacrifice of Christ, and in another place, a man sacrificing his life for his friend. It's also given a lengthy description in 1 Corinthians 13. You could easily look up all the references if you cared to.
Thanks to JB Peterson and his dedication to search for the truth. I have been trying to understand the word of God for some time now and what to make of it in our life. One piece that miss in the discussion and interview that I would recommend to find is the nature of Kings and Kingdom. In many bible books God call himself a king .when we search for him out of that concept it is hard to find him. In the Hebrew language “ a name of a thing is the thing.” God’s mind and work is packaged in that concept. In regards of the seen and the unseen, Apostle Paul said that the seen world comes from the unseen! Everything that is physical was first an Idea. So the unseen world is more real than the see world. Our knowledge is very limited to the point where unless we knock and seek to capture the mind of the creator , what he communicates through his words or his creation will be forever hidden from our eyes and minds. Thanks again to Dr JB Peterson God bless you with more truth.
As an atheist, recently I have come to believe that the best chance of saving this rotting and decaying society is to return to traditional Christian values. I will never believe in god or the divinity of Jesus, nor will I ever believe in the “miracles” described in the Bible, but I have always held conservative beliefs that would be described by most people as “Christian” and most of my beliefs are in strong agreement with Christianity. For a while I did not believe Christianity should return, but seeing the depraved nightmare that modern society has turned into has led me to believe that Christianity is a much better alternative to whatever filth exists today. I grew up in the church and the best, most morally upright and decent people I know are Christians. Not to say other people are not good, but I have found that Christian’s are the most committed to moral principles and least susceptible to what they might call “sin” and what I would call immorality.
Christianity without Christ is damned. You expect the sheep to shepherd themselves? Even the wise amongst men will call themselves agnostic. You can doubt the Bible for now, but I would suggest studying it. Remember, the world did not create itself. Matter did not create itself.
The coming collapse of materialism: With quantum physics, conscious observation causes the wave function to collapse and information shapes your perceived material environment. DNA information is the primary factor in biology; organic chemistry is secondary. Imagine AI control of avatars in computer games to the extent that avatars exhibit independent consciousness in the simulation and act as if they are living in a material reality. They would be the materialist!
I found your reflection very interesting. As a Catholic, formerly agnostic, I understand where you are coming from, what I would question is, if a particular belief system seems to produce more moral and prosperous societies and individuals, wouldn't this at least be an indication that the beliefs where it all lies may have some truth to them? This questioned me deeply when I was not a believer, and I believe in might be the intelectual honest path to take, to question, hey, Why the hell does this works?
@@conservativewomble1393 how about trying to live like the character of Christ as described in the Bible instead of literally believing all the claims of the Bible. If all people strove to live like Jesus in their moral life, but still adhered to science and reality, that would be as close to utopia as humanity could possibly get
29:14 saying "you don't have to believe in a perfect God...to be a Christian" is like believing that numbers are NOT infinite while calling yourself a mathematician. Saying such a thing would make you look like a mad man to mathematicians and commoners alike. Numbers don't lie and are infinite. Just like God.
If the calling and moving further out of reach in a developmental path is an infinite path, then there’s no ultimate goal that’s reachable. If that’s the case then hope can’t be based on attainment but rather on the joy of growth and that’s a never ending process.
JBP and his guests delight me with their use of language. English is my second language and sometimes I can not even imagine how to translate their ideas into Spanish. My respect and admiration for them. ❤
This is such a deep and mysterious topic and I appreciate Peterson discussing it with Symes. With regard to the topic of intelligence I'd like to point to the Hindu conceptualization which distinguishes eight forms of intelligence, parsing out buddhi (intellect), ahankara (identity), manas (memory) and chitta (something like creative intelligence) and these seem of use here.
Jordans arguments for theism particularly Catholicism with continual citations of the bible utterly compelling and made sense. Jack’s counterarguments for theism and agnosticism were as strong as he could possibly make but did not stand up and did not provide a path to a frame work of meaning. And a lack of meaning leads to anxiety and suffering and ultimately an ignorance to the manifestation for that which is bad or evil. Thus, inflicting the anxiety and suffering of those around you.
@@bankieyI agree. Beautifully put. Where I see god, is in the way these souls inevitably reach out to the world, in an attempt to encapsulate in words that which encapsulate themselves. In the shared experience of mental absurdity and physical rawness, exactly there where universal compassion is born.
@@bankiey Looking at an other person, as a being that is thrown into the world, inevitably expressing their needs and desires, their thoughts and practices. There is universal compassion in the recognition of this universally shared thing, this “raging against the machine” or these inevitable movements we each have to go through. Doesn’t matter whether we are rich or poor. We will all move through time, one way or another. For me, hegemonic religions had killed God. When I was young I rejected these religions, and by doing to I threw the baby (the idea of god), out with the bath water. And then the search for God had stopped. But wouldn’t you agree that if God is to be found, we must be capable of that. We must be able to understand the nature of existence by our own means, rather than through stories of others. Otherwise it is impossible for those in disconnection with the modern world to find God. And so, through that reasoning; Take the following as literal as possible: But I now see that there is one truth, and which one that is, is impossible to know. Those who do claim to know, are false prophets. Yet there is an endless wellspring of joy to be found in the fact that, that I am born by it, exist in it, and will return to it. All the while I never really go anywhere. You see, there is no separation, between me and everything around me. Only thoughts separate us, and time is a construct of consciousness as we move linearly through it. The traditional hegemonic religious conceptualisation of God is so childish, so anthropocentric, almost disrespectful even. Perhaps we are already dead and are already in a heaven, among all the cycles of the heavens. I mean, I am here now. But where is here, in the relativistic sense of the cosmological order. There are things so far beyond and so deep within the universe, things which effects never would be able to reach us. Things so complex they overwhelm our limited capacities. In a way, defining God is impossible, but by pointing to it we can never miss.
@@bankiey I already typed something, but it seems like youtube deleted my comment. Can you be more specific about what you would like to know about. I’ll be more specific in-depth about it.
On the discussion of believing in truth vs a comforting lie that leads to flourishing.... I counter that no, it is not comforting, it is terrifying that I beleive many people I know will be permanently cut off from God’s grace. It is not at all a ‘pleasant’ thing to believe in - to limit myself and place my self under the ultimate authority of another I cannot begin to comprehend- so I would counter that the presumption it’s an easy lie in place of truth is just a lack of understanding what believing in Christ really is. I believe it is true. I do not ‘want’ in the traditional sense to believe it, but I do believe it and act it out in my actions and allegiance as best I can.
Amen to that. I believe in God and that brings me comfort but also simultaneously the weight of God's judgment. It's not like life suddenly gets easier, any Christian can attest. In one sense, life becomes harder because now I have to live up to a standard but also it becomes much more meaningful.
I would suggest do not worry yourself with such thoughts. God will handle it and call them to Him. Give grace and prayer, and show some humility. Throw the first stone if you are so perfect.
Dr. Peterson Thank you for this kind of video, so much appreciated. I am so amaze of the knowledge about the information you have imparted to everyone. Please keep continue on what you're doing. I will support this kind of act...
I would be very interested to see what a study and breaking down of the Book of Mormon apart from and in tandem with the Bible would bring about in a conversation with Jordan
This is one of the video a must see by the the viewers because their are lots of interesting information that must know by every human being. I am so thankful and appreciated...
‘One should never get involved in verbal questions or questions of meaning, and never get interested in words. If challenged by the question of whether a word one uses really means this or perhaps that, then one should say: 'I don't know, and I am not interested in meanings; and if you wish, I will gladly accept your terminology?’ - Karl Popper
Someone asked me, “What does ‘?’ mean?” It’s a complicated thing. First, we have to define the nature of ‘?’ in relation to the sentence, and then we have to define the nature of the person asking the question (if a question is indeed what they’re really "asking", however we shouldn’t presume what "questioning" means). Before we do that, we need to define the meaning of the word “meaning” to the person asking the question. However, it’s essential that we establish an objective definition of meaning. That’s a difficult thing to do man, and we have to be very careful about jumping to conclusions. It’s taken millennia for humans to distill the meaning of “meaning” into the biblical corpus, so it would be arrogant of us to even attempt answering the question in such simple terms… Especially if we haven’t established what “person” means, since individual consciousness and the collective unconscious may exist in some kind of superposition. I enjoyed your chat with Alex, by the way, and am in full support of you standing up to your corrupt and cowardly government, board of psychologists (or whatever they’re called), bringing on guests like Tommy, etc.
"Pain and suffering" seems very "evil" to Jack AND Jordan! 58:55--"Being is so rife with suffering that it's inexcusable in its essence" is Mephistopheles's argument that plagues Jordan! It's the old, "if God is good why does He allow people to suffer?"! Seriously?! Your "suffering" comes about because and to the extent you think you are important. Pleasure/pain is how Nature teaches you what is right/wrong!! How do you take your lessons! Do you view "pain" as a corrective...and pleasure as a reward? Your response to your pleasure/pain is extremely FORMATIVE! All experience has a pleasure/pain component that has a great "rooting value"; a special dimensional connection that establishes the persistence of the value's influence/meaning in the developing self. Each experience forms and reforms the personal character, even at the most basic level, as experience is integrated.
Our call is VITAL and REAL! Loved it!! A great guest for the podcast would be Dr N.T. Wright, he has 12 PHDs. It would be awesome to see the conclusions from that conversation
Could a humble, wise prayer resemble something like “Lord, please guide me to gently confront the situations that encompass in them the potential for my next evolution, an evolution in which I listen attentively like Dr. Jack Symes.”?
Dr. Peterson is correct that at its heart, the book of Job is about existence. Chesterton called it a masterpiece. He refers to it as an “inexhaustible religious classic,” writing that “centuries hence the world will still be seeking for the secret of Job, which is in a sense the secret of everything.”
Super educated people generally think they are too smart to believe in our Almighty Lord. Remember Jesus said you must have the “faith” of a child. That takes humility 🙏🏼
I have a question. I understand that meaning can come from suffering when you face your suffering and overcome it and rise above it. But I don't know what to make of that because if there is utility for good that can be made from suffering then is there justification for suffering? I have thought about this for a long time, and it doesn't feel right because no matter what I do I feel like I get stuck in a corner defending something that's immoral in my eyes. The best I can get is that rather than suffering being justifiable, it's better to see suffering as a tool for meaning if used correctly and that suffering is justifiable only when beaten and overcome by meaning. This explanation seems moral to me however, I'd really like other people's input because the problem of evil is tough to argue.
There is no reality without awareness. Reality becomes reality because WE BECOMING--- BEING AWARE OF SOMETHING! It is our awareness brings things into focus, and we then add our considerations - labels the things we see.
For me, the "problem of evil" was resolved by contemplating the following two questions: 1) Do we have an immortal soul? 2) Upon death, do we experience a so called "life review"? I came to the conclusion that the answer to both questions is "yes". Therefore life is a training ground for the soul, and there is no "problem of evil". The conclusion is then that "life" as we know it is the process by which good souls are made.
@@spindoctor6385 I came to it. I wasn't raised in the church and was an atheist leaning agnostic in grad school when I really started thinking deeply on life and meaning. How I came to answer those two questions in the way that I do now is difficult to put into words, but I'll try. It was something like first acknowledging that neither I nor anyone else knows or even can know for sure, but by committing myself fully to the earnest pursuit of Truth, and having an open mind, I might allow myself to come closest to that goal. I just started meditating on it a lot, without any assumptions of what the answers should be. I also practiced shutting off my internal dialogue, as a way of thinking without words, allowing contemplation and answer to form coherently as gestalt. I did this for many years. This part is the hardest to describe but you asked so I'll try my best. One day I came to the very sudden realization that none of this stuff has to be here. A void is a perfectly reasonable alternative to existence, and would in fact be more reasonable than a universe full of stuff and living beings. None of this stuff that exists has any meaning in and of itself. It shouldn't be here. But the fact that it does exist means that there IS a reason for it, and that reason is something beyond it's mere existence. In other words, purpose for existence isn't simply assumed, it's *required* I understand that this argument cannot be proven with words. Whether or not I arrange them to form something valid and sound, they will never convince anyone of anything. But I do believe that the *process* I described in getting there, will bring a person to the same place, or somewhere very close to it. From there - accepting that there is meaning and purpose - the rest did in time follow naturally.
@@spindoctor6385 Either nihilism is true or it isn't. If it is, then why care about anything at all? Why even care about the answers to your questions? If that were the case, then none of this will matter anyway. Someday we will all be dead and forgotten and all these conversations will fade into obscurity. Either there is something to this life or there isn't. Nihilism, yes or no?
@@quentin1691 I agree with you, to the extent that life is a gift, and what we do with it now is of consequence. Our belief systems appear to diverge on the rest, and that's ok. It's not that I think belief is unimportant. I think it *is* important. It can help us to find purpose and meaning. It can provide us with comfort, and relief from existential angst. Ultimately tho, what people *do* is more important to me than what they *believe* If you do good things, you're a good person as far as I'm concerned. What you believe is none of my business (unless of course we're talking about it like we're doing now, openly and with respect for one another)
@@no-one-787 Sounds like you are the one dealing with nihilism, not me. This false dichotomy of some afterlife judge or nihilism is very short sighted. And just because you do not like the conclusions that YOU come to if there isn't something else afterwards, does not make for a compelling reason to believe the only other option that you can come up with. That is just fear.
From my perspective, I believe that what we describe as good and bad is only understood by humans; to God, it’s all a lesson. Let’s ask ourselves this, Imagine a life without suffering, a life filled only with happiness. No one would acknowledge the existence of a supreme being. The symbol of Yin and Yang ☯️ illustrates this perfectly. I strongly believe in reincarnation, and from that perspective, you’ll realize that God doesn’t care about your physical body but about your true self-your soul. PS: This is one of the best Peterson’s conversation I’ve ever watched.❤️
I like the idea of higher vibrations of light in which consciousness aspires and evolves through. Humans existing within the 3rd density of vibration in which consciousness becomes self aware. Consciousness graduates through these densities, each representing higher orders of unity.
If you look up the word, here is one answer "In psychology, consciousness is the awareness of one's internal and external stimuli, including thoughts, emotions, feelings, sensations, and the environment. It is a subjective experience that is unique to each person. " The debate science v religion will always be questioned and how much proof/evidence there is to support either side (or other!) Holy books will tell you it is from a tree in Christianity "The Tree of Life" & "The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil" I mean no one will ever know the true answer here. But I do like listening to these debates for thought!
I'm no scholar but, during the patchwork quilt argument when Dr. Symes appeals to Plato's forms, i.e. why not just stop at multiple forms such as justice, etc. Wasn't it a part of Plato's theory of forms that even those forms took part in a single greater form? The form of the good? I'll have to do some research. Great conversation!
I must say, the advertisements in the middle of the discussion are really annoying and very distracting. It would be best if you add them at one place at the start, or middle or the end instead of scattered throughout the vid.
I found this episode really interesting. JBP played a significant role in my personal return to the Catholic faith, precisely because of his rational, existential argument for God. But this only leads to a certain point, namely the point where it is ostensibly a matter of deciding whether God is real or not, which has been very well elaborated in today's discussion. JBP's argument for faith as a pre-rational, not irrational, act really resonated with me. It is the personal experience, the trusting surrender to God or the great adventure of life that makes the experience of God's presence possible in the first place. God is there and he is waiting for us - with open arms...
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The conversations where someone pushes back on jordan with some really compelling arguments are the best. And this may be my personal favorite, Jack Symes is a very respectful and intelligent man, I hope we can hear more from these two
The intro to 'Foundations of the West' literally gives me goosebumps. What a great adventure!
I can't get enough of these discussions. It's so nice hearing people have discussions instead of arguments.. especially about topics as important as these. Thank you Dr Peterson as well as your guest. Both of your points of view built on each other very well.
I really enjoyed this one a lot. Jack Symes is someone who can stand toe to toe with Jordan and also provide great synthesis, which made for a great and fruitful discussion.
he was pretty good, yeap. but still, did not get some points
Jack brought out the best of JBP. Iron sharpens iron.
Ah yes, the iron intellect of someone who conflates harry potter with god
@@ryand1404 yeah no sh*t....
@@-TriP- Oh, did you mean JBP as the conflator? I see your point then, lol.
@@ryand1404 I did not see your reply, I assume it was well-reasoned and gentile. Ahem. I am generally in favor of Dr. Peterson however I am skeptical of his followers' "belief", I think he's actually an atheist.
@@-TriP- Yeah he’s a great help to people. He just sometimes tries to narrow God down too much to the point his conception of God sometimes seems purely psychological. On the other hand, since he’s a psychologist, maybe that's just the way he approaches everything.
Dearest Dr. Peterson, what you were saying about imagining yourself as the Auschwitz guard… and I’ve heard you say that many times before… reminds me very poignantly of a spiritual, emotional, and intellectual exercise we Christian fundamentalists used to do in order to prepare our hearts and minds to receive the sacrament of Holy Communion, which we called “remembering the Lord in His death.” An unspeakably holy and sacred thing for us. We identified ourselves with the jeering crowd who called for Christ’s crucifixion. We identified ourselves with the onlookers who mocked His sufferings. We knew ourselves to be at one with the Roman soldiers who swung the hammer and pounded the nails. We knew in the deepest part of ourselves that we were guilty of the death of our Lord. And we knew that His death was for our redemption and our forgiveness. With St. Paul, we knew ourselves to be crucified with Christ.
With Ruth Anne’s love
Thats deep, I never knew that was a thing christians did, but I can see how that would compel one to find the revelation and spiritual awakening in christ that so many christian have. Is that what we are missing?
Your mom
@@solomonnissan6226 your dad. What is wrong with you?
@@solomonnissan6226immature
And his resurrection bought our freedom. Jesus is there, when ever we want to reach out
I didn't know who Jack Symes was before entering. Now my interest is peaked.
Will be exploring this soon.
And finally we have a podcast on the problem of defining God. This problem had been my number 1 question to people before I became Christian. What is God? Who is God?
We could not hope to find or determine the existence of something that we don't even know.
He's a big long list of things we can't find
@@donaldmcronald8989 That's only from your perspective I suppose. Historically, it seems that people have found him in approximations and through the names of God built their societies.
@@SbonisoMMDlamini That's not discovery. Those gods were never found. I can posit the existence of anything beyond my death, and you'll never be able to take it away from me. No syllogism can defeat it.
@@donaldmcronald8989 Sorry but you are saying it as if anything you could posit could hold a society together in any reasonable way or amount. That's simply a gradation in difference you don't appreciate.
And why is it that you act as if there is always something beyond death in these stories...
This is a great and utterly necessary bridge between two worlds that should never be separated in the first place.
Well said.
Nice.
“The only lives that truly matter are those who respect the lives of others”.
Matthew 5:44-45
King James Version
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
👏👏👏
Really pushed my level of intelligence listening to this conversation. Was difficult, but enjoyed it and planted a lot of seeds of curiosity. 🙏🙌💙
Indeed. Intellectual gobbledygook is infinitely fascinating.
@@danmar007I have a feeling you were being sarcastic but I do believe that 😅
If your christian god decided to transition into a man in the 1st century, then how can you go around asking people: "What is a woman?" You ascribe to God what you deny for atheists. Have you no sense?
I love conversations like this that make me dive deeply into my own beliefs. It's a bit mind warping to think deeply about these huge concepts, but I've grown to love that feeling
Really wish JP would invite a Bishop Robert Barron into these discussions. Or at least to reflect on this interview.
Please upvote to see that happen...
He has had Bishop Robert Barron on already, but I can see you mean as a regular thing. You'd have more chance getting in touch with BRB to do response videos on his own channel.
He’s had him on at least once maybe more
Yeah just search bishop Barron and Jordan. He has about 2 or 3 with him
If you can define it, you are greater than it. Thus, mine is to stay honest, open, and willing enough for God to define me.
If you can define it, then you are equal to it. And you are, when you learn what you are, and what God is.
I would posit that there's a difference between definition and truly understanding what you define. Defining something doesn't by nature make it greater or lesser but the level to which we accept that we truly and fully grasp something definitely says something about you. ❤
@@grietjie93 I strongly suspect that the reason nobody defines what their "God" is, is because they don't have understanding. And if they were to attempt to define it then their lack of understanding would become apparent. So they are living in darkness while attempting to appear that they are living in light.
@@KevinSolway a) that doesn't mean the Christian God whom they are mostly speaking of here by definition is undefineable :) and also I think nobody is a pretty strong term :) why do do you say nobody?
@@grietjie93 "the Christian God whom they are mostly speaking of here"
I have no idea what "the Christian God" is, since it is never defined. And I know for a fact that different Christians have completely different ideas of what God is.
I say "nobody" because I've watched hundreds of videos such as these, and nobody ever defines what they are talking about.
Christ is not on the top of the ladder. He is the ladder. Therefore, welcome to the ladder and fulfillment on every step. "Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”
This is an extraordinary conversation on the most fundamental quest of the human "soul" by two brilliant, kind, respectful and articulate deep thinkers I have ever encountered. What is the meaning of life, and especially suffering. I would ask other listeners to not only listen to their arguments, but, most importantly FEEL what happens to you deep in the center of your being during certain passages from both participants. You may even notice as I did an evolving symphony akin to Brahms Piano Concerto #2, my favorite composition, from one of the speakers. The ebbs and flows of a coherent theme punctuated by passages of pathos, complexity and heroic grandeur are my best way of describing the deep emotional resonance I felt from this "composer". Mark Berry
Please interview Cliff knecthle....hes probably leading voice in terms of taking the bible literally. Itl be very interesting discussion to see
How to be a Textbook piece of shit: interpret the bible literally.
Agreed!
I would like to see this conversation again through the lens of the gift of free will.
Interesting -- I would have thought this discussion is a demonstration of free will. I believe there's a real logic which requires belief in the monotheistic God ... man is too chaotic to be a result of evolution. That said, free will permits discussions like this. It also dictates that freedom of thought, freedom of expression and freedom of speech are a requirement to live life correctly. Because we don't have all the evidence, and our thoughts only become real when spoken. Thus speaking produces the evidence which leads others (and often ourselves) to seek God, and become saved.
So very pleased to see the good professor look and articulate himself sharply after all these years and the associated trials and tribulations.
I love you jordan peterson.
Your meekness is beautiful.
I have always been terrified of death even as a child....I needed to find God and Christ. It is hard for me to understand that not everyone is like me. I found a faith that is unshakeable. The Lords prayer connected me to god. The most important thing I have ever done is to put God at the top of my life....to love those that hurt me..to pray for my enemies...and to watch my words...its all about his words
I love to see how excited Dr. Peterson was talking with Symes. it was a pleasure to listen and see this interaction.
What a delightful Episode.
Watching the insightful discussion, and attempting to get close to clarity, with precise steps and illumination in a swamp of murky and unsure-footed subject matter!
Thank you to you and your guest for the acute listening and mutual cross-interrogation.
Amazing. I'm a Peterson fan, and I enjoy (and rate) Jack hugely. I first saw Jack debate Stephen Law, and that was dense but astounding. I'd love to see a round two to this. Symes brought out the best from Peterson.
Jack Symes went home and started reading the bible.
Based on what? Did we watch the same interview?
I think he won the debate because he had a pen in his hand and his shirt unbuttoned. What a poser.
Lol I hope so
My favorite conversation so far. Thank you both parties for the exchange. That is profound evangelism.
All of your guests, even the skeptics, seem to point me back to Christ.
I feel like that too. When JBPs views are opposed to a nihilistic and agnostic one, the meaning shines through even stronger.
I do wish JBP would’ve opposed him harder though. I think he’s trying to interrupt his guests less since the Elon Musk interview, but in this instance it meant he couldn’t crystallise his views as well as he might’ve.
For example, when the guy compares the Bible to Harry Potter… of course the Bible is more real and more full of truths. Because it documents thousands of years of moral wisdom and western society and culture have been closely linked to it for hundreds of years. He kept strawmanning the belief in God as this nice lie that makes you feel better instead of the crushing moral obligation that JBP believes it is.
@@شهریار_شهپریwhy do you think they think their God is superior to others? That's not even coherent since by definition there can be only one God.
@@barry.anderberg People think this is a war between your God and their God or Gods... It is not, Christianity is a great manifestation and hierarchization of the divine structure of reality through the human experience of good and evil. It is not the only one but probably one of the best if not the best (its the basis of western values and society which encompasses human rights and freedom or atleast the ideal of such concepts). So it is not their God thats superior, is their interpreation of the evidence of right and wrong paths that humans, with their inherited agency, can choose to follow.
Jesus is part of the Godhead. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Unfortunately some who claim to be Christian may in fact be self-deluded. If they were born again Christians you would know it by their "fruit". Galatians 5:22
The way they discuss the uniqueness of Christ would be loving, not arrogant. I apologize for their attitude because it brings reproach to our Lord and Savior, Jesus of Nazareth. No one else was able to atone for all of mankind's sin, and that is why Jesus is Supreme and Lord of Lord's and king of kings! Amen and God bless 🕊 @@شهریار_شهپری
@@شهریار_شهپری
Cristian beliefs tend to go to a moral and absolutely good God like many other religions think, but then stop and think "i know that i am not absolutely good like God, how can i, dirty like hell, be in the presence of something so pure without destroying it's godness and purity?"
The response comes from god who came in flesh and said: i, jesus, will become sin and die for you. So now all your sins died with me in that cross, try to do as i do, belief in me and i will grant you forgiviness for all your sins so you can be in my presence, by my side.
Thats why god is in a cross, not because he denied human suffering but became part of it.
It's not as simple as it's seems on the outside, like its jesus or hell, because it comes from a place of "i want to be good" and jesus says: The world will not forgive you, it will punish you and put you in a cross like it did with me, but i will forgive you if you be at my side and fight your own fight every day.
Its a sad state that even the cristians dont know how to propagate the principles of cristianity.
I absolutely loved this discussion. Caused me to deeply think about how I view my own beliefs and I’m eager to watch this again to get a better understanding. Can’t wait to read his book also
Interesting how the guest tries to place Jordan in a box by defining where he stands … exactly.
Jordan does not go there at all but rather goes back to concepts without stakes in the ground.
Beautiful conversation. I appreciate both perspectives. Wonderful points on both sides.
You talked about how reason can't give you the ultimate motivation to reach the transcendent good and all I could think about was Virgil in Dante. A higher motivational state, Beatrice, has to carry Dante into the upper levels of the ladder because reason can't get you to Heaven. You need the love beyond reason to achieve the divine state of being. Great show guys. Really made me think.
As for defining God, St. John already did that. “God is Light. God is love.”
Meaning that the very essence of God is Love and Light, neither of which properties can be defined by our science. Ineffable, as you say.
God is not love.
"Neither of which properties can be defined by our science."
And neither of which can be defined by you, obviously, or you would have done it.
with all due respect, both litht AND love can and HAVE been defined by our sciences.
@@pluff22no they have not. Energy can be observed in it's effects, and characterized or quantified in certain ways, but what it "is" cannot be defined. This is not even a religious position but is manifestly the case, period. Is light a wave or a particle or both or neither or does it depend? And what is "it", the actual thing behind our observations? If you think science knows the answer, you're in fact not familiar enough with the science, let alone philosophy which is necessary for science to be possible and meaningful.
@@KevinSolwaylove isn't so much defined as it is demonstrated, since love is more properly a verb than a noun. If love has no object or action, it is nothing, other than what we might claim as a feeling, but love is not a feeling.
Love in the Bible is defined via descriptions of demonstrations, namely; the sacrifice of Christ, and in another place, a man sacrificing his life for his friend.
It's also given a lengthy description in 1 Corinthians 13. You could easily look up all the references if you cared to.
Thanks to JB Peterson and his dedication to search for the truth. I have been trying to understand the word of God for some time now and what to make of it in our life. One piece that miss in the discussion and interview that I would recommend to find is the nature of Kings and Kingdom. In many bible books God call himself a king .when we search for him out of that concept it is hard to find him. In the Hebrew language “ a name of a thing is the thing.” God’s mind and work is packaged in that concept. In regards of the seen and the unseen, Apostle Paul said that the seen world comes from the unseen! Everything that is physical was first an Idea. So the unseen world is more real than the see world. Our knowledge is very limited to the point where unless we knock and seek to capture the mind of the creator , what he communicates through his words or his creation will be forever hidden from our eyes and minds. Thanks again to Dr JB Peterson God bless you with more truth.
As an atheist, recently I have come to believe that the best chance of saving this rotting and decaying society is to return to traditional Christian values. I will never believe in god or the divinity of Jesus, nor will I ever believe in the “miracles” described in the Bible, but I have always held conservative beliefs that would be described by most people as “Christian” and most of my beliefs are in strong agreement with Christianity. For a while I did not believe Christianity should return, but seeing the depraved nightmare that modern society has turned into has led me to believe that Christianity is a much better alternative to whatever filth exists today. I grew up in the church and the best, most morally upright and decent people I know are Christians. Not to say other people are not good, but I have found that Christian’s are the most committed to moral principles and least susceptible to what they might call “sin” and what I would call immorality.
Christianity without Christ is damned.
You expect the sheep to shepherd themselves?
Even the wise amongst men will call themselves agnostic.
You can doubt the Bible for now, but I would suggest studying it.
Remember, the world did not create itself. Matter did not create itself.
🎯
The coming collapse of materialism:
With quantum physics, conscious observation causes the wave function to collapse and information shapes your perceived material environment.
DNA information is the primary factor in biology; organic chemistry is secondary.
Imagine AI control of avatars in computer games to the extent that avatars exhibit independent consciousness in the simulation and act as if they are living in a material reality. They would be the materialist!
I found your reflection very interesting. As a Catholic, formerly agnostic, I understand where you are coming from, what I would question is, if a particular belief system seems to produce more moral and prosperous societies and individuals, wouldn't this at least be an indication that the beliefs where it all lies may have some truth to them? This questioned me deeply when I was not a believer, and I believe in might be the intelectual honest path to take, to question, hey, Why the hell does this works?
@@conservativewomble1393 how about trying to live like the character of Christ as described in the Bible instead of literally believing all the claims of the Bible. If all people strove to live like Jesus in their moral life, but still adhered to science and reality, that would be as close to utopia as humanity could possibly get
What a great conversation. I didn't know this guy but I really liked him and am looking forward to delving into his work over the next few months
Jordan Peterson is so smart and inspires me/comforts me! He’s definitely helped me move in the direction of the unity of which he speaks!
29:14 saying "you don't have to believe in a perfect God...to be a Christian" is like believing that numbers are NOT infinite while calling yourself a mathematician. Saying such a thing would make you look like a mad man to mathematicians and commoners alike. Numbers don't lie and are infinite. Just like God.
If the calling and moving further out of reach in a developmental path is an infinite path, then there’s no ultimate goal that’s reachable. If that’s the case then hope can’t be based on attainment but rather on the joy of growth and that’s a never ending process.
When a VERY smart mart meets a Genius! This was an incredible conversation!!!
JBP and his guests delight me with their use of language. English is my second language and sometimes I can not even imagine how to translate their ideas into Spanish. My respect and admiration for them. ❤
A valuable and engaging discussion to witness. Huge gratitude to you both choosing to enter into it and to let us share in it.
His ex girlfriend line entering the 48 minute mark is gold 😊
Thank you. I found the conversation quite stimulating.
This was an amazing discussion. I'd love to see a full series with this guest!
This may be my favorite episode of all! My hat is off to them both. What a beautiful explanation of the story of Job.
So glad to hear Dr. Peterson speak on the book of Job.
"Defining god" this is the kush I subscribed for.
I could listen and look at these 2 all day long!
This is such a deep and mysterious topic and I appreciate Peterson discussing it with Symes.
With regard to the topic of intelligence I'd like to point to the Hindu conceptualization which distinguishes eight forms of intelligence, parsing out buddhi (intellect), ahankara (identity), manas (memory) and chitta (something like creative intelligence) and these seem of use here.
Jordans arguments for theism particularly Catholicism with continual citations of the bible utterly compelling and made sense. Jack’s counterarguments for theism and agnosticism were as strong as he could possibly make but did not stand up and did not provide a path to a frame work of meaning. And a lack of meaning leads to anxiety and suffering and ultimately an ignorance to the manifestation for that which is bad or evil. Thus, inflicting the anxiety and suffering of those around you.
Hey relax 😮
This was a great conversation. Jack Symes is a very engaging interlocutor.
“Defining God” is a crazy proposition
@@bankieyI agree. Beautifully put. Where I see god, is in the way these souls inevitably reach out to the world, in an attempt to encapsulate in words that which encapsulate themselves. In the shared experience of mental absurdity and physical rawness, exactly there where universal compassion is born.
@@bankiey of course, about what?
@@bankiey i will answer it, but a bit later. Too busy atm
@@bankiey Looking at an other person, as a being that is thrown into the world, inevitably expressing their needs and desires, their thoughts and practices. There is universal compassion in the recognition of this universally shared thing, this “raging against the machine” or these inevitable movements we each have to go through. Doesn’t matter whether we are rich or poor. We will all move through time, one way or another.
For me, hegemonic religions had killed God. When I was young I rejected these religions, and by doing to I threw the baby (the idea of god), out with the bath water. And then the search for God had stopped.
But wouldn’t you agree that if God is to be found, we must be capable of that. We must be able to understand the nature of existence by our own means, rather than through stories of others. Otherwise it is impossible for those in disconnection with the modern world to find God. And so, through that reasoning;
Take the following as literal as possible:
But I now see that there is one truth, and which one that is, is impossible to know. Those who do claim to know, are false prophets. Yet there is an endless wellspring of joy to be found in the fact that, that I am born by it, exist in it, and will return to it. All the while I never really go anywhere. You see, there is no separation, between me and everything around me. Only thoughts separate us, and time is a construct of consciousness as we move linearly through it.
The traditional hegemonic religious conceptualisation of God is so childish, so anthropocentric, almost disrespectful even.
Perhaps we are already dead and are already in a heaven, among all the cycles of the heavens. I mean, I am here now. But where is here, in the relativistic sense of the cosmological order.
There are things so far beyond and so deep within the universe, things which effects never would be able to reach us. Things so complex they overwhelm our limited capacities. In a way, defining God is impossible, but by pointing to it we can never miss.
@@bankiey I already typed something, but it seems like youtube deleted my comment. Can you be more specific about what you would like to know about. I’ll be more specific in-depth about it.
Jesus is the way, the truth and the life...Amen 🙏
My thought gets exactly
🙏
To think that some would want Christianity without Christ 🤔
Russian bot
@@Blacksheep-uy3qv
How does that work? False Prophets?
I love listening to intelligence conversations ❤❤❤
Wonderful conversation. So grateful to be able to experience it.
Brilliant minds. Thank you for these conversations.
This channel is the BEST for the content at had. Much ❤ 🤗
Jack needs a gold chain
Haha! He actually just needs to fasten one more button on his shirt~😌
Amazing conversation here, thank you!
Thoroughly enjoyed that. You finally got me this time, I want to hear the rest of it, off to dailywire.
On the discussion of believing in truth vs a comforting lie that leads to flourishing.... I counter that no, it is not comforting, it is terrifying that I beleive many people I know will be permanently cut off from God’s grace. It is not at all a ‘pleasant’ thing to believe in - to limit myself and place my self under the ultimate authority of another I cannot begin to comprehend- so I would counter that the presumption it’s an easy lie in place of truth is just a lack of understanding what believing in Christ really is. I believe it is true. I do not ‘want’ in the traditional sense to believe it, but I do believe it and act it out in my actions and allegiance as best I can.
Amen to that. I believe in God and that brings me comfort but also simultaneously the weight of God's judgment. It's not like life suddenly gets easier, any Christian can attest.
In one sense, life becomes harder because now I have to live up to a standard but also it becomes much more meaningful.
I would suggest do not worry yourself with such thoughts. God will handle it and call them to Him. Give grace and prayer, and show some humility. Throw the first stone if you are so perfect.
You might want to question further why you don't want to believe it. Maybe there's an intuition you're ignoring!
I mean, if you don't want to believe it, do you really believe it?
@@ditro-p I'm speaking in the Christian context, those who believe in Christ, who believe in salvation and resurrection from the dead
This Build is Triumphant 🙏 To Define God is to define the Everlasting..However to try is ever so endearing 👍 Jordan Peterson X Jack Symes
Consciousness is outside of physics outside of matter outside of our system and is therefore eternal
A lot of food for thought. I enjoyed the interview and it adds another level (or two) for deeper thinking.
Dr. Peterson Thank you for this kind of video, so much appreciated. I am so amaze of the knowledge about the information you have imparted to everyone. Please keep continue on what you're doing. I will support this kind of act...
I would be very interested to see what a study and breaking down of the Book of Mormon apart from and in tandem with the Bible would bring about in a conversation with Jordan
I would watch that one!
This is one of the video a must see by the the viewers because their are lots of interesting information that must know by every human being. I am so thankful and appreciated...
‘One should never get involved in verbal questions or questions of meaning, and never get interested in words. If challenged by the question of whether a word one uses really means this or perhaps that, then one should say: 'I don't know, and I am not interested in meanings; and if you wish, I will gladly accept your terminology?’
- Karl Popper
Someone asked me, “What does ‘?’ mean?” It’s a complicated thing. First, we have to define the nature of ‘?’ in relation to the sentence, and then we have to define the nature of the person asking the question (if a question is indeed what they’re really "asking", however we shouldn’t presume what "questioning" means).
Before we do that, we need to define the meaning of the word “meaning” to the person asking the question. However, it’s essential that we establish an objective definition of meaning. That’s a difficult thing to do man, and we have to be very careful about jumping to conclusions.
It’s taken millennia for humans to distill the meaning of “meaning” into the biblical corpus, so it would be arrogant of us to even attempt answering the question in such simple terms… Especially if we haven’t established what “person” means, since individual consciousness and the collective unconscious may exist in some kind of superposition.
I enjoyed your chat with Alex, by the way, and am in full support of you standing up to your corrupt and cowardly government, board of psychologists (or whatever they’re called), bringing on guests like Tommy, etc.
Nice, saw this guy on Rogan recently, happy to see him again
Realmente Jordan R. es infinito, nunca termina de sorprenderme ❤
Praise The Lord Y'all, Sending Love and Prayers
"Pain and suffering" seems very "evil" to Jack AND Jordan! 58:55--"Being is so rife with suffering that it's inexcusable in its essence" is Mephistopheles's argument that plagues Jordan! It's the old, "if God is good why does He allow people to suffer?"! Seriously?! Your "suffering" comes about because and to the extent you think you are important. Pleasure/pain is how Nature teaches you what is right/wrong!! How do you take your lessons! Do you view "pain" as a corrective...and pleasure as a reward? Your response to your pleasure/pain is extremely FORMATIVE! All experience has a pleasure/pain component that has a great "rooting value"; a special dimensional connection that establishes the persistence of the value's influence/meaning in the developing self. Each experience forms and reforms the personal character, even at the most basic level, as experience is integrated.
One of the best episodes!
Our call is VITAL and REAL! Loved it!! A great guest for the podcast would be Dr N.T. Wright, he has 12 PHDs. It would be awesome to see the conclusions from that conversation
Could a humble, wise prayer resemble something like “Lord, please guide me to gently confront the situations that encompass in them the potential for my next evolution, an evolution in which I listen attentively like Dr. Jack Symes.”?
Dr. Peterson is correct that at its heart, the book of Job is about existence. Chesterton called it a masterpiece. He refers to it as an “inexhaustible religious classic,” writing that “centuries hence the world will still be seeking for the secret of Job, which is in a sense the secret of everything.”
Super educated people generally think they are too smart to believe in our Almighty Lord. Remember Jesus said you must have the “faith” of a child. That takes humility 🙏🏼
Commit to faith, faith fails you in all respects, aethism.
Often they proclaim the pecisions of science without addressing its postulates , uncertaintities and the unseen elements necessary for its methods.
Maybe they have discovered something that we haven't
God is a Jungian archetype. This concept is implanted in our subconscious at time of birth.
Matthew 18:3 "If you don't change and become like a child, you will never get into the kingdom of heaven.,,"
Terrific discussion.
Great talk!!!!
Quite a brilliant discussion to listen too
What is Love..The aim that unites and moves in mysterious ways...🙏
great discussion. intresting depth ♥
JP quoting Mircea Eliade again, love it
Praise the LORD. 🙏 Truly enjoying your content, Jordan.
I have a question. I understand that meaning can come from suffering when you face your suffering and overcome it and rise above it. But I don't know what to make of that because if there is utility for good that can be made from suffering then is there justification for suffering? I have thought about this for a long time, and it doesn't feel right because no matter what I do I feel like I get stuck in a corner defending something that's immoral in my eyes. The best I can get is that rather than suffering being justifiable, it's better to see suffering as a tool for meaning if used correctly and that suffering is justifiable only when beaten and overcome by meaning. This explanation seems moral to me however, I'd really like other people's input because the problem of evil is tough to argue.
The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but you don't know where it comes from or where it's going.
Love your tie!
There is no reality without awareness. Reality becomes reality because WE BECOMING--- BEING AWARE OF SOMETHING! It is our awareness brings things into focus, and we then add our considerations - labels the things we see.
Please consider a conversation with Rabbi Manis Friedman - particularly a conversation about the NT book of Galatians.
My favourite episode ❤
Love the bespoke suit and tie.
For me, the "problem of evil" was resolved by contemplating the following two questions:
1) Do we have an immortal soul?
2) Upon death, do we experience a so called "life review"?
I came to the conclusion that the answer to both questions is "yes". Therefore life is a training ground for the soul, and there is no "problem of evil".
The conclusion is then that "life" as we know it is the process by which good souls are made.
Did you "come to" that conclusion or did you start with it? If you did come to that conclusion, how did you get there?
@@spindoctor6385 I came to it. I wasn't raised in the church and was an atheist leaning agnostic in grad school when I really started thinking deeply on life and meaning. How I came to answer those two questions in the way that I do now is difficult to put into words, but I'll try. It was something like first acknowledging that neither I nor anyone else knows or even can know for sure, but by committing myself fully to the earnest pursuit of Truth, and having an open mind, I might allow myself to come closest to that goal. I just started meditating on it a lot, without any assumptions of what the answers should be. I also practiced shutting off my internal dialogue, as a way of thinking without words, allowing contemplation and answer to form coherently as gestalt. I did this for many years.
This part is the hardest to describe but you asked so I'll try my best. One day I came to the very sudden realization that none of this stuff has to be here. A void is a perfectly reasonable alternative to existence, and would in fact be more reasonable than a universe full of stuff and living beings. None of this stuff that exists has any meaning in and of itself. It shouldn't be here. But the fact that it does exist means that there IS a reason for it, and that reason is something beyond it's mere existence.
In other words, purpose for existence isn't simply assumed, it's *required*
I understand that this argument cannot be proven with words. Whether or not I arrange them to form something valid and sound, they will never convince anyone of anything. But I do believe that the *process* I described in getting there, will bring a person to the same place, or somewhere very close to it.
From there - accepting that there is meaning and purpose - the rest did in time follow naturally.
@@spindoctor6385 Either nihilism is true or it isn't. If it is, then why care about anything at all? Why even care about the answers to your questions? If that were the case, then none of this will matter anyway. Someday we will all be dead and forgotten and all these conversations will fade into obscurity. Either there is something to this life or there isn't. Nihilism, yes or no?
@@quentin1691 I agree with you, to the extent that life is a gift, and what we do with it now is of consequence. Our belief systems appear to diverge on the rest, and that's ok.
It's not that I think belief is unimportant. I think it *is* important. It can help us to find purpose and meaning. It can provide us with comfort, and relief from existential angst.
Ultimately tho, what people *do* is more important to me than what they *believe*
If you do good things, you're a good person as far as I'm concerned. What you believe is none of my business (unless of course we're talking about it like we're doing now, openly and with respect for one another)
@@no-one-787 Sounds like you are the one dealing with nihilism, not me. This false dichotomy of some afterlife judge or nihilism is very short sighted. And just because you do not like the conclusions that YOU come to if there isn't something else afterwards, does not make for a compelling reason to believe the only other option that you can come up with. That is just fear.
From my perspective, I believe that what we describe as good and bad is only understood by humans; to God, it’s all a lesson.
Let’s ask ourselves this, Imagine a life without suffering, a life filled only with happiness. No one would acknowledge the existence of a supreme being. The symbol of Yin and Yang ☯️ illustrates this perfectly.
I strongly believe in reincarnation, and from that perspective, you’ll realize that God doesn’t care about your physical body but about your true self-your soul.
PS: This is one of the best Peterson’s conversation I’ve ever watched.❤️
I like the idea of higher vibrations of light in which consciousness aspires and evolves through. Humans existing within the 3rd density of vibration in which consciousness becomes self aware. Consciousness graduates through these densities, each representing higher orders of unity.
If you look up the word, here is one answer "In psychology, consciousness is the awareness of one's internal and external stimuli, including thoughts, emotions, feelings, sensations, and the environment. It is a subjective experience that is unique to each person. "
The debate science v religion will always be questioned and how much proof/evidence there is to support either side (or other!) Holy books will tell you it is from a tree in Christianity "The Tree of Life" & "The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil" I mean no one will ever know the true answer here. But I do like listening to these debates for thought!
I'm no scholar but, during the patchwork quilt argument when Dr. Symes appeals to Plato's forms, i.e. why not just stop at multiple forms such as justice, etc. Wasn't it a part of Plato's theory of forms that even those forms took part in a single greater form? The form of the good?
I'll have to do some research.
Great conversation!
I must say, the advertisements in the middle of the discussion are really annoying and very distracting. It would be best if you add them at one place at the start, or middle or the end instead of scattered throughout the vid.
A choice between good or evil or heaven or hell.....
Thank you sir
Please interview Blake Ostler. Or read his books The Attributes of God, where he goes through defining God.
This was really good and interesting , thanks !