Mid-set adaptation is a skillset that a pro should be able to develop on their own. It is an extra barrier to separate the best of the best from those who are simply amazing mechanically.
@@lasergliderin real fighting you're getting your head bashed in and probably suffering from a concussion. Whatever information you're getting is only as good as your physical condition. There is no such physical limitation in a video games that translates to real life. It's also easier to execute a punch in a video game than it is to punch in real life. Also, it's just annoying as a spectator. Do I really want to watch a guy getting coached for 1 minute every 2-3 minutes? No, no one does. You can't even hear what they're being coached on.
@@laserglider It is a natural expectation for most athletes to have a coach. Even if you are doing amateur boxing in a gym, you would have a coach. In video games, most people self study without any direct help from a person.
@@lasergliderTradition. In the FGC, it's expected that for the duration of a set its a 1v1. Also the ability to recognise and adapt to your opponents behaviours is a skill that the majority of people in the FGC highly value and is something we want to see measured during competition. Coaching diminishes this aspect. I think the community itself should cultivate the kind of competition they want participate in and looking at what other sports/esports are doing is mostly irrelevant because, at the end of the day, we are the ones that are actually effected.
Typical commenter here before I barely even started the video but at 1:58 is all that needs to be said a sniper with a spotter is at a massive advantage over a sniper without. It’s still up to the assisted sniper to make the shot but when you’ve got a guy calling targets and the ranges for you while the other guy is doing all that WHILE still having to make the shot is plain and simple unfair. Give one a spotter the other nothing it’s likely a slaughter, give the other guy a spotter and it is no longer a sniper duel but a team vs team. Mid-set coaching has no place in the FGC.
52:55 sephi is playing 5d chess here. shaheens df2 basically only crushes on the 10th-12th frame and only really dodges a couple of jabs. Sephi has seen this interaction before and made this play against double specifically. legit genius. this play probably would have not worked against any other player/character combo in this pool.
I think it’s fine to have a coach. a lot of esports have them and even the most intimate physical sports such as boxing and MMA have them as well. I think that there is a way to compromise so that both parties feel a little bit more comfortable with the other
I think a dedicated 2v2 format where two players build a team and can coach each other and hot swap seats could be very entertaining and interesting, but traditional Tekken should be 1v1 without midset coaches* *your opponent is allowed to coach you at their own leisure.
As a professionally casual player and viewer, I dislike mid set coaching. It slows the game down too much, and imo it dilutes the skill expression of the players 1v1 which is what I'm there to see.
Imo it's an open-book test, vs a closed-book test. If both parties have a coach, fine. If one party does not have a coach, then the other shouldn't be able to use theirs.
When PhiDX spent a minute on mashing power crush on standing 3 4. I was like brother, we don't need this. But, to be fair, most people who watch probably aren't even blue rank.
I feel like for Ft2, coaching shouldn’t be allowed but sets like Ft3 I feel like having just 1 coaching breaking and have it be like 15 seconds to 20. That could make it better for viewing wise but idk
Lol its been going on for the longest hell it always has happened to me at tournaments. it only becomes a problem when the top complain. when i was competing i saw it alot though and while its helpful the person in question still has to be able to take in the information and integrate it properly. ive seen it fail numerous times because the person got tunnel vision. it rarely works... Also theres not much a person can tell you in that limited amount of time. tekken is a tough game also as a player if you have a habit that can be easily spotted and exploited by outsiders and disseminated to your competitor without much resistance or self adjustment. then that says more about you as a player then it does them. you gotta do better. We are approaching this like its new but it’s been going on for YEARS esports just amplifies it
52:48 Why did Shaheen go for Forward 2, 3 after the counterhit instead of the DF 2, 1 thats a Heat Engager? Is it muscle memory or was it intentional? Is the +20 mixup from f2,3 better than getting Heat?
Its a weird controversy. Just make it a rule in the tournament. No coaches, or coaches allowed. The tekken community isnt big enough to expect whether coaches are allowed to affect viewership, and the players can choose whether or not to compete
Is it weird that I only hear of this coaching debate in tekken? I've seen some older games like MvC3 having coaching mid match, but haven't see coaching at all in SF6. It should really be up to the organizers if they allow coaching or not.
I have split feelings on coaching When having a coach, you have to be willing to accept criticism and adjust your playstyle while hoping you coaches advice was good. Without a coach, you are forced to deal with all the pressure of observation, adaptation, and execution by yourself which separates the good, great, and world class players I think players who are better at observation being coaches is such a cool thing because it shows that everyone has different skillsets that cant be appreciated inside of a tournament setting
It should be a mix of having tournaments with and without coaches. And u should have only one official coach spot as well as having limited coaching times. Rly hope the higher tier events will do ft5 and/or no coaching
Not just mid-set coaching, but also electronic devices such as smartphones should go as well. Don't remember how punishable a move was, let's check our trusty frame data app... It should be on the players to do their homework before tournaments start. You go into every tournament set with just your mind, and your pad/stick/leverless device. Nothing more.
I love coaching..... but I also understand that logically coaching shouldn't be a thing since you are literally getting outside help from another person entirely and now it's not just your own abilities being used.... almost like asking your teacher "what's the answer to this question" during a test.
I dunno, I see it basically the same as boxing or MMA, where coaching is encouraged between rounds. The only issue I'd really have is if it delayed the game.
I think the advanced players shouldn't have coaches bc they already have all the tools they need to win and it becomes more of a mind game than just technique.
I wholeheartedly agree with the chess/coaching analogy. Opening theory was a major turn off for me when it came to learning chess, which is why I prefer Chess960 or Fischer Random Chess.
you know when im sitting my ass down at my PC to rank up I don't have someone mid set going "that's +6 on block stop mashing bro" or whatever, I should have labbed more. you do that with friends, a tournament match is not that.
With me, the coaching is kinda like when a round is over in a boxing match. However, they should also be allotted a certain amount of time, then ding ding! Let's get it on!
Well, you don't get head trauma playing fighting games. So you're pretty much still can think on your own in between rounds. The boxing analogy is kind of a reach.
I'm totally against mid-set coaching. Even as a less advanced player I participate in live tournaments where peope are often using more flowcharts than reaction based plays and having someone tell me that I can crouch and punish an abused flowchart would be cheating. I don't see a difference here.
Great analysis. And of course coaching should be illegal. Not even a question about it. Being observant to your opponents moves and behaviour, and then be able to adapt is basically half of Tekken. Why on earth is it even legal to let someone be the observer for you and just give you extremely valuable information mid-match? It's totally cheating!
Hell yeah, another Phi upload 🙏🏻 Your esports recaps are very entertaining. If you do decide to ever branch out to other fighting games I'd love similar content for Smash or Street Fighter.
Totally depends on the format of the comp / length of coaching. Longer sets like FT5 / FT3 I feel us just a good breather even for the audience... maybe no more than 15 seconds allowed of coaching.
Small Tekken = jabs df1's and other fast pokes Playing Tekken more = interacting with mids lows and sidesteps rather than playing hitbox minefields (as an example)
I've seen people complain that SF6 is too random because there's not one unbeatable Pro Player (or a select few) that dominates everyone but for me as a spectator that makes things more entertaining. Same here, when both players play incredibly well and you don't know until the last interaction who's gonna win, that's what I like to see. Stomps can be fun to watch in small doses but even matches are way more entertaining to me and, I believe, speak to the health of both the game and the community behind it.
Me personally i like the idea of coaching its just refreshing to have a homie just there now i will argue it should definitely have a time limit no more than 30-45 seconds imo
Gotta mention KingReyJr., he literally has an assistant that watches his games that he CALLS OVER mid set for adjustments. Can't get any more unfair than that
I'm super surprised that a new tournament, EWC, managed to bring a spicier format that actually really elevates competition for both the player and the audience. BO5 during all elimination brackets with no double elim after groups is a great way to focus players during a more vital stage of the tournament. No coaching also makes the fights more high stakes and reliant on the player themselves.
I sure as hell as am glad that I'm not a professional Tekken player right now. The idea of having to play this abominable shite fest as a matter of professional obligation, to say nothing of indirectly helping Bandai Namco to sell it, makes me feel physically ill!
You got that Chris-Chan cut. You should find a new barber and touch some grass. Tekken is eating your hairline and chin 🤣. I respect the bravery for showing your face online because damn dude, I wouldn't want people to know you look like Elmer Fudd with a stringy wig.
I think that touneys with no coaches is better. In my opinion the matches without coaching are more pure but that is my opinion. Anyway as always amazing work Phi
Reminds me of conversations chess had before computers became insane. I do not find a scenario that can be fixed with coaching that is super interesting. But it does have to be organized. E.g., players can have a fixed number of times they can call coaches or something like this
Ngl it does make sense. I think there should be tournaments that allow coaches just so we can see the highest of level of fighting games played. But I do think that they should not be allowed at every tournament
You do realize that these fighters are at the top of the world lol……..and they do lolol. Execution and adaptation is literally a part of every single sport lolol. It’s not unique to Tekken lol. Literally almost every professional sport has some form of coaching lolol. This shit is gamers thinking they are way more epic and important than they think they are lol. Even if you get coached, you still as the player has to execute. And also 99% of yall wouldn’t even benefit from having a coach or not, or will you ever play at this level lolol.
@@taco_sensei No, it doesn't. Maybe if you think about it on a surface level. MMA coaching has become a thing largely because it was tradition in boxing, but that doesn't necessarily make it right. There are several arguments against this line of logic. For one boxing and mma involve a significant physical element. Fighters experience pain, fear, dizziness, injuries, and exhaustion all of which affect decision-making and performance. Because of these physical factors, I would argue that a game like tekken is more comparable to chess than it is to boxing or mma. Sure there is mechanical skill in tekken but at the highest level the mental matters most and small tekken. Next point is that any form of coaching in a 1v1 competition destroys the integrity of competing. The essence of 1v1 competition is to test the ability of one player to think, adapt, gather information and strategize independently. Introducing coaching undermines this, because it allows external input during the competition (view points from outside of a stress environment is a big advantage). You are not fighting someone with a coach IRL either, so why should this be allowed in a competition to decide the better fighter? There is also the problem, where coaching between rounds can create an uneven playing field. One player might have access to a more experienced or skilled coach, which gives them an unfair advantage. Additionally, language barriers can create another layer of inequality. One competitor might understand the opponent's coaching advice, while the other might not be able to understand theirs due to differences in language, further creating external unfairness. Many people turn a blind eye to the negative aspects of coaching simply because it has been tradition for so long. But tradition alone isnt a justification. Coaching harms the integrity of individual competition. People often feel the need to involve a team wherever possible (point being team sports being the most popular), likely due to a natural human need for social interaction. However, the fear of competing alone in a 1v1 setting shouldnt be an excuse to "cheat" by relying on outside help.
The D3+4 situation at the wall in the Bilal vs Jodd match is even scarier now with snake eyes. Opponents don't want to wake up to 3+4 knowing that the extension might get them killed. So I can understand why Jodd chose to wake up standing instead of crouching.
Back in Tekken 7 I don't remember seeing any mid-set coaching aside from the last TWT. It really slows down sets unnecessarily as a spectator, not to mention it can be unfair for people who entered a tournament solo and have to sit there while someone else coaches their opponent.
1:04:15 - this has to become a clip, or a sample or something. Favourite reaction to date I like coaching in the game, but i hear the arguement against. If it could be impliemented more fairly, i would rather have it - it has the potential of a higher level of play even if it isnt purely coming from the individual player but rather a team effort.
such a great content for me i am newbie and if i watch this matches by myself i just dont recognize what is going on on the screen but watch this with your comments is pure pleasure for me(despite that 60% percents of interactions that you dont cover with explaination, i dont exactly understand)
It's so interesting the most discussion around mitigating the pressures of top level tournament play and how coaching diminishes that came from a competition where the set-ups were split instead of side-by-side.
No, that make it not a 1v1 but a 2v2 instead. Think of many great players Yagami, Book that pay to travel the world to compete and end up having to play 2v1 game is unfair.
Coaching is chill as long as it’s a rule set prior to the tournament. Giving the players the option to participate or not. I think coaching increases the skill and excitement. I want to beat you, your coach, your whole team. I’m not scared. And also if coaching became a steady thing….thats literally a job that gets opened creating a bigger infrastructure for professional play….. Imagine that this sets up a pipeline where retired Tekken players can create teams and coach again increasing the infrastructure of professional play lol. But I guess you can stay in that conservative mindset and never adapt. Probably why you aren’t pro to begin with 🤷🏾♂️
Coaching is fine. People complain to much. Ultimately it should be up to the organizers. Some tournaments (like EWC) not allowing coaching is cool and interesting. But the TWT should allow coaching. It's part of the game.
Boxers have coaches why not fgs can have one??? Its not like its mandatory to have a coach like a lawyer is. Habing a coach certainly comes with some advantage than having none. Also the Turkiye olympian whos a sharpshooter did not have the fancy equipment to usse but he still has won a medal in olympics. That does not make him complain about something that is accepted on the rules of the sports
beacuse boxer are actively getting hit in the face and cant instantly recover to see everything.. where as in this nothing is being doing to you physically to reduce your vision
I feel like the arguments I've seen against coaching are all really weak, conversly, the pro coaching side just has to go "look at (insert sport, combat or otherwise, here), they have coaches because of xyz as well." Then the anti coaching side has to try and differentiate Tekken from stuff that has coaching, but the arguments are always weird "oh, coaching is fine in mma because you're physically injured, so its fine to have someone tell you things from an outside perspective" or "in X sport, they train with the coach, so its not the same". Its always either super weird, not true, or both
In esports you do scrimms with other pro players that is part of your training. The argument about physically injured is weak. Its still about competition whether you get injured or not
mid-set coaching is basically doing half of the player job on his behalf. Also if you are lucky to have a good coach you can have much better chances of success versus someone who went to the tournament alone
Coaching is the worst thing to ever happen to tekken tournaments. People who defend it do not understand the long term harm from allowing coaching. And even besides that, fighting games are supposed to be all about you 1v1 against your opponent. Just ruins the whole concept of fighting games.
because in videogames your vision is single spot, where as in physical you have to be looking trying to focus, up, down, left, right and no can see from all angles at same time
So coaching in Boxing and MMA is frowned upon? These are fighting sports? Is Tekken not a form of fighting? Questions you should ask before some of yall try to make an informed opinion
Mid-set adaptation is a skillset that a pro should be able to develop on their own. It is an extra barrier to separate the best of the best from those who are simply amazing mechanically.
Why is video game coaching different from real life coaching????
@@laserglidercoaching in any competition is stupid. That's why it's banned in certain tennis tournaments maybe even all of them.
@@lasergliderin real fighting you're getting your head bashed in and probably suffering from a concussion. Whatever information you're getting is only as good as your physical condition. There is no such physical limitation in a video games that translates to real life. It's also easier to execute a punch in a video game than it is to punch in real life.
Also, it's just annoying as a spectator. Do I really want to watch a guy getting coached for 1 minute every 2-3 minutes? No, no one does. You can't even hear what they're being coached on.
@@laserglider It is a natural expectation for most athletes to have a coach. Even if you are doing amateur boxing in a gym, you would have a coach.
In video games, most people self study without any direct help from a person.
@@lasergliderTradition. In the FGC, it's expected that for the duration of a set its a 1v1.
Also the ability to recognise and adapt to your opponents behaviours is a skill that the majority of people in the FGC highly value and is something we want to see measured during competition. Coaching diminishes this aspect.
I think the community itself should cultivate the kind of competition they want participate in and looking at what other sports/esports are doing is mostly irrelevant because, at the end of the day, we are the ones that are actually effected.
Typical commenter here before I barely even started the video but at 1:58 is all that needs to be said a sniper with a spotter is at a massive advantage over a sniper without. It’s still up to the assisted sniper to make the shot but when you’ve got a guy calling targets and the ranges for you while the other guy is doing all that WHILE still having to make the shot is plain and simple unfair. Give one a spotter the other nothing it’s likely a slaughter, give the other guy a spotter and it is no longer a sniper duel but a team vs team. Mid-set coaching has no place in the FGC.
52:55 sephi is playing 5d chess here. shaheens df2 basically only crushes on the 10th-12th frame and only really dodges a couple of jabs. Sephi has seen this interaction before and made this play against double specifically. legit genius.
this play probably would have not worked against any other player/character combo in this pool.
I think it’s fine to have a coach. a lot of esports have them and even the most intimate physical sports such as boxing and MMA have them as well. I think that there is a way to compromise so that both parties feel a little bit more comfortable with the other
Phi we promise you these long videos are great😊
All these EWC videos have been really good
I love putting these videos on in the background while I do chores/make breakfast. Thanks so much Phi
shoutout from switzerland. keep up this content! it's so good my friend
31:53 phi had to put a pause on that “finish him off” 😂
I think a dedicated 2v2 format where two players build a team and can coach each other and hot swap seats could be very entertaining and interesting, but traditional Tekken should be 1v1 without midset coaches*
*your opponent is allowed to coach you at their own leisure.
A Tekken Tag tournament? Sounds cool to me :P
Appreciate the video Phi!
As a professionally casual player and viewer, I dislike mid set coaching. It slows the game down too much, and imo it dilutes the skill expression of the players 1v1 which is what I'm there to see.
Should no be coaching unless its a team based tournament.
Imo it's an open-book test, vs a closed-book test.
If both parties have a coach, fine.
If one party does not have a coach, then the other shouldn't be able to use theirs.
great breakdown as always!
W video phi looking forward for more EWC content 🔥
I appreciate u and ur analysis even when it's "what just happened there"
When PhiDX spent a minute on mashing power crush on standing 3 4. I was like brother, we don't need this.
But, to be fair, most people who watch probably aren't even blue rank.
You would think big tournaments like this would have fully functioning set-ups
I feel like for Ft2, coaching shouldn’t be allowed but sets like Ft3 I feel like having just 1 coaching breaking and have it be like 15 seconds to 20. That could make it better for viewing wise but idk
love these vids
Lol its been going on for the longest hell it always has happened to me at tournaments. it only becomes a problem when the top complain.
when i was competing i saw it alot though and while its helpful the person in question still has to be able to take in the information and integrate it properly. ive seen it fail numerous times because the person got tunnel vision. it rarely works... Also theres not much a person can tell you in that limited amount of time. tekken is a tough game also as a player if you have a habit that can be easily spotted and exploited by outsiders and disseminated to your competitor without much resistance or self adjustment. then that says more about you as a player then it does them. you gotta do better.
We are approaching this like its new but it’s been going on for YEARS esports just amplifies it
52:48
Why did Shaheen go for Forward 2, 3 after the counterhit instead of the DF 2, 1 thats a Heat Engager? Is it muscle memory or was it intentional? Is the +20 mixup from f2,3 better than getting Heat?
Its a weird controversy. Just make it a rule in the tournament. No coaches, or coaches allowed. The tekken community isnt big enough to expect whether coaches are allowed to affect viewership, and the players can choose whether or not to compete
Is it weird that I only hear of this coaching debate in tekken? I've seen some older games like MvC3 having coaching mid match, but haven't see coaching at all in SF6.
It should really be up to the organizers if they allow coaching or not.
I have split feelings on coaching
When having a coach, you have to be willing to accept criticism and adjust your playstyle while hoping you coaches advice was good.
Without a coach, you are forced to deal with all the pressure of observation, adaptation, and execution by yourself which separates the good, great, and world class players
I think players who are better at observation being coaches is such a cool thing because it shows that everyone has different skillsets that cant be appreciated inside of a tournament setting
It should be a mix of having tournaments with and without coaches. And u should have only one official coach spot as well as having limited coaching times. Rly hope the higher tier events will do ft5 and/or no coaching
@@tugsuumovies1999 I think that's a fair compromise. Have the t/o make a decision on coaching and how long they get to coach
Not just mid-set coaching, but also electronic devices such as smartphones should go as well.
Don't remember how punishable a move was, let's check our trusty frame data app... It should be on the players to do their homework before tournaments start.
You go into every tournament set with just your mind, and your pad/stick/leverless device. Nothing more.
I started rooting for sephi right after you mentioned his backstory...only to see his controller DC like that ! man that sucked
I love coaching..... but I also understand that logically coaching shouldn't be a thing since you are literally getting outside help from another person entirely and now it's not just your own abilities being used.... almost like asking your teacher "what's the answer to this question" during a test.
awesome video :)
I dunno, I see it basically the same as boxing or MMA, where coaching is encouraged between rounds. The only issue I'd really have is if it delayed the game.
I think the advanced players shouldn't have coaches bc they already have all the tools they need to win and it becomes more of a mind game than just technique.
zen has 2 animations the forward sway and backsway one its both the same stance if thats what u where talking abt
yep. b3+4 or f3+4
Maybe there should be a smaller time limit. Otherwise I'm against it. You are meant to adapt and figure out the opponent.
guys Phi got a Makestick 👀👀👀
💥💨
Huge vid ty 💣
been waiting brooo
Centrist opinion: Coaching is allowed but capped at ~20 secs
I wholeheartedly agree with the chess/coaching analogy.
Opening theory was a major turn off for me when it came to learning chess, which is why I prefer Chess960 or Fischer Random Chess.
It’s basically like a boxing match so I don’t see the issue
Tekken is looking more and more like pachinko, less and less like a tournament fighter each day.
the whole question is way overblown honestly.
you know when im sitting my ass down at my PC to rank up I don't have someone mid set going "that's +6 on block stop mashing bro" or whatever, I should have labbed more. you do that with friends, a tournament match is not that.
With me, the coaching is kinda like when a round is over in a boxing match. However, they should also be allotted a certain amount of time, then ding ding! Let's get it on!
100 percent
Well, you don't get head trauma playing fighting games. So you're pretty much still can think on your own in between rounds. The boxing analogy is kind of a reach.
@@misteralien8313 Coaches don't exist in boxing simply because fighters may get head trauma lmao, what an ignorant comment.
I'm totally against mid-set coaching. Even as a less advanced player I participate in live tournaments where peope are often using more flowcharts than reaction based plays and having someone tell me that I can crouch and punish an abused flowchart would be cheating. I don't see a difference here.
Great analysis.
And of course coaching should be illegal. Not even a question about it. Being observant to your opponents moves and behaviour, and then be able to adapt is basically half of Tekken. Why on earth is it even legal to let someone be the observer for you and just give you extremely valuable information mid-match? It's totally cheating!
Hell yeah, another Phi upload 🙏🏻
Your esports recaps are very entertaining. If you do decide to ever branch out to other fighting games I'd love similar content for Smash or Street Fighter.
WELL WELL WELL MORE PHI DX? FINE. I ACCEPT YOUR CHALLENGE PHILLIP DEE EX
🗿big ❤s
We want to see the best high level play? Coaches push that forward.
Infiltration brought coaching to the fgc.
Totally depends on the format of the comp / length of coaching. Longer sets like FT5 / FT3 I feel us just a good breather even for the audience... maybe no more than 15 seconds allowed of coaching.
So unlucky for sephi
❤😂
no coaching
Does this guy still PLAY the game or what
More ewc videos!
I have always be on the stance of: YOU are fighting, it is a SKILL to see what you need to do. It's that simple imo.
Most coaches just want to get on camera.
"Small Tekken"? WHAT DOES THAT MEAN
*Describing a character* "Playing Tekken more"? What?
Small Tekken = jabs df1's and other fast pokes
Playing Tekken more = interacting with mids lows and sidesteps rather than playing hitbox minefields (as an example)
@@PhiDX Thank you! Already did some searching but your explanation is concise.
the only thing tekken needs to remove is that damn heat spamming system.. 🤮
I've seen people complain that SF6 is too random because there's not one unbeatable Pro Player (or a select few) that dominates everyone but for me as a spectator that makes things more entertaining. Same here, when both players play incredibly well and you don't know until the last interaction who's gonna win, that's what I like to see. Stomps can be fun to watch in small doses but even matches are way more entertaining to me and, I believe, speak to the health of both the game and the community behind it.
Me personally i like the idea of coaching its just refreshing to have a homie just there now i will argue it should definitely have a time limit no more than 30-45 seconds imo
Gotta mention KingReyJr., he literally has an assistant that watches his games that he CALLS OVER mid set for adjustments. Can't get any more unfair than that
I'm super surprised that a new tournament, EWC, managed to bring a spicier format that actually really elevates competition for both the player and the audience.
BO5 during all elimination brackets with no double elim after groups is a great way to focus players during a more vital stage of the tournament. No coaching also makes the fights more high stakes and reliant on the player themselves.
40:33 me too PhiDx, me too
I sure as hell as am glad that I'm not a professional Tekken player right now. The idea of having to play this abominable shite fest as a matter of professional obligation, to say nothing of indirectly helping Bandai Namco to sell it, makes me feel physically ill!
You got that Chris-Chan cut. You should find a new barber and touch some grass. Tekken is eating your hairline and chin 🤣. I respect the bravery for showing your face online because damn dude, I wouldn't want people to know you look like Elmer Fudd with a stringy wig.
I think that touneys with no coaches is better. In my opinion the matches without coaching are more pure but that is my opinion. Anyway as always amazing work Phi
It was very cool to see Double play so well, fun to watch him turn crouching into a major threat
Reminds me of conversations chess had before computers became insane. I do not find a scenario that can be fixed with coaching that is super interesting. But it does have to be organized. E.g., players can have a fixed number of times they can call coaches or something like this
Some random green rank: "B-bUt BoXiNg & MMA hAs coAcHinG"
🤦♂
Ngl it does make sense. I think there should be tournaments that allow coaches just so we can see the highest of level of fighting games played. But I do think that they should not be allowed at every tournament
You do realize that these fighters are at the top of the world lol……..and they do lolol.
Execution and adaptation is literally a part of every single sport lolol.
It’s not unique to Tekken lol. Literally almost every professional sport has some form of coaching lolol.
This shit is gamers thinking they are way more epic and important than they think they are lol.
Even if you get coached, you still as the player has to execute.
And also 99% of yall wouldn’t even benefit from having a coach or not, or will you ever play at this level lolol.
@@taco_sensei No, it doesn't. Maybe if you think about it on a surface level. MMA coaching has become a thing largely because it was tradition in boxing, but that doesn't necessarily make it right. There are several arguments against this line of logic.
For one boxing and mma involve a significant physical element. Fighters experience pain, fear, dizziness, injuries, and exhaustion all of which affect decision-making and performance. Because of these physical factors, I would argue that a game like tekken is more comparable to chess than it is to boxing or mma. Sure there is mechanical skill in tekken but at the highest level the mental matters most and small tekken.
Next point is that any form of coaching in a 1v1 competition destroys the integrity of competing. The essence of 1v1 competition is to test the ability of one player to think, adapt, gather information and strategize independently. Introducing coaching undermines this, because it allows external input during the competition (view points from outside of a stress environment is a big advantage). You are not fighting someone with a coach IRL either, so why should this be allowed in a competition to decide the better fighter?
There is also the problem, where coaching between rounds can create an uneven playing field. One player might have access to a more experienced or skilled coach, which gives them an unfair advantage. Additionally, language barriers can create another layer of inequality. One competitor might understand the opponent's coaching advice, while the other might not be able to understand theirs due to differences in language, further creating external unfairness.
Many people turn a blind eye to the negative aspects of coaching simply because it has been tradition for so long. But tradition alone isnt a justification. Coaching harms the integrity of individual competition. People often feel the need to involve a team wherever possible (point being team sports being the most popular), likely due to a natural human need for social interaction. However, the fear of competing alone in a 1v1 setting shouldnt be an excuse to "cheat" by relying on outside help.
@@taco_senseianother dude already say it but tl;dr they do coaching in boxing because you won't be thinking clearly after a punch in the head.
@agiyx8591 not reading that but I disagree, we need coaches
The D3+4 situation at the wall in the Bilal vs Jodd match is even scarier now with snake eyes. Opponents don't want to wake up to 3+4 knowing that the extension might get them killed. So I can understand why Jodd chose to wake up standing instead of crouching.
ewc > evo
Back in Tekken 7 I don't remember seeing any mid-set coaching aside from the last TWT. It really slows down sets unnecessarily as a spectator, not to mention it can be unfair for people who entered a tournament solo and have to sit there while someone else coaches their opponent.
1:04:15 - this has to become a clip, or a sample or something. Favourite reaction to date
I like coaching in the game, but i hear the arguement against. If it could be impliemented more fairly, i would rather have it - it has the potential of a higher level of play even if it isnt purely coming from the individual player but rather a team effort.
I'm a no mid-set coaching kind of guy
such a great content for me
i am newbie
and if i watch this matches by myself i just dont recognize what is going on on the screen
but watch this with your comments is pure pleasure for me(despite that 60% percents of interactions that you dont cover with explaination, i dont exactly understand)
I just want Dragonov to lose
I agree with you for once 😂 this isn't a team sport
Raef studied well but Double came out on top it's incredible to see his comeback
I think coaching generally should be allowed but im fine with no coaching either way good ahh tekken
I didnt even notice that happened to sephi. Honestly kinda shocked they didnt let them run it back
It's so interesting the most discussion around mitigating the pressures of top level tournament play and how coaching diminishes that came from a competition where the set-ups were split instead of side-by-side.
An idea: - Rage-Art that does not kill
No
@@roninhubbard9059 ok no it was a lapse in judgement :) i was rage i admit
An idea: Tekken without Heat :O
😁
NO i love it when coaches come in, adds a flavour, Boxing between round???
Boxers have coaches why not fgs also
@@mariocruz591 why does this have to be the same as boxing?
I can understand in high level play but if both players are getting coaching isnt it ok?
but what if you dont have a coach??? Should no to coaching unless its a team based tournament.
No, that make it not a 1v1 but a 2v2 instead.
Think of many great players Yagami, Book that pay to travel the world to compete and end up having to play 2v1 game is unfair.
Love having the coaches jump in to help fighter. Hopefully it stays for the rest of tekken 8
Against coaching. It’s cringey and there are no coaches in traditional gameplay.
coaching such a common thing across general competition. Seeing tekken players lose their mind over this shit is some of the weirdest bs i've seen.
Coaching is chill as long as it’s a rule set prior to the tournament.
Giving the players the option to participate or not.
I think coaching increases the skill and excitement. I want to beat you, your coach, your whole team.
I’m not scared.
And also if coaching became a steady thing….thats literally a job that gets opened creating a bigger infrastructure for professional play…..
Imagine that this sets up a pipeline where retired Tekken players can create teams and coach again increasing the infrastructure of professional play lol.
But I guess you can stay in that conservative mindset and never adapt.
Probably why you aren’t pro to begin with 🤷🏾♂️
Coaching is fine. People complain to much. Ultimately it should be up to the organizers. Some tournaments (like EWC) not allowing coaching is cool and interesting. But the TWT should allow coaching. It's part of the game.
Boxers have coaches why not fgs can have one??? Its not like its mandatory to have a coach like a lawyer is. Habing a coach certainly comes with some advantage than having none.
Also the Turkiye olympian whos a sharpshooter did not have the fancy equipment to usse but he still has won a medal in olympics. That does not make him complain about something that is accepted on the rules of the sports
beacuse boxer are actively getting hit in the face and cant instantly recover to see everything.. where as in this nothing is being doing to you physically to reduce your vision
I feel like the arguments I've seen against coaching are all really weak, conversly, the pro coaching side just has to go "look at (insert sport, combat or otherwise, here), they have coaches because of xyz as well."
Then the anti coaching side has to try and differentiate Tekken from stuff that has coaching, but the arguments are always weird "oh, coaching is fine in mma because you're physically injured, so its fine to have someone tell you things from an outside perspective" or "in X sport, they train with the coach, so its not the same". Its always either super weird, not true, or both
In esports you do scrimms with other pro players that is part of your training. The argument about physically injured is weak. Its still about competition whether you get injured or not
mid-set coaching is basically doing half of the player job on his behalf. Also if you are lucky to have a good coach you can have much better chances of success versus someone who went to the tournament alone
Coaching is the worst thing to ever happen to tekken tournaments. People who defend it do not understand the long term harm from allowing coaching. And even besides that, fighting games are supposed to be all about you 1v1 against your opponent. Just ruins the whole concept of fighting games.
Yagami’s point doesn’t make sense because boxing and MMA have coaches so what’s the difference between video game fighting and real life fighting?
because you can literally die in real life
basically everything? It's like saying what's different from real tennis and virtua tennis
because in videogames your vision is single spot, where as in physical you have to be looking trying to focus, up, down, left, right and no can see from all angles at same time
So coaching in Boxing and MMA is frowned upon? These are fighting sports? Is Tekken not a form of fighting? Questions you should ask before some of yall try to make an informed opinion
if u need a coach ur a bot
🤒🤕