As a woman, my experience has been that I've been demonized for having emotions, and for hiding them. My experience is that there are too many misogynists who rigged a game where women lose no matter what. If we have emotions like full humans do, this is cast as weakness, whereas if we try to hide emotions like men are allowed to do in such treacherous environments, we are cast as cold and unfeminine. There is no winning a game men invented for men, and to disenfranchise and excise of our humanity and rights as human women.
I agree. If you're a man with emotions, you're called Jesus. If you're a man with no emotions, you're called stoic or sigma wolf or whatever silly title has popped up these days 😂 As a woman of mixed race, I've given up this game a long time ago since I've always seen it as rigged. I am just myself, the world can take it or leave it. Everyone will make this discovery at some point in their life. As they age, their bodies fail them and their looks fade, they realize the world isn't built for the elderly, or the disabled, or those who don't fit into a narrow box. Basically, just love yourself, make yourself happy, help those who you love and find joy in your own little universe. Let the rest of the world play their game.
@@xandercorp6175 Besides my own opinion, which is what it is (qualified as from experience), 30 others who've read my opinion based in my experience seem to prove my sentiments resonate with them. Versus your assertion, apparently that I'm baseless. Of course your experience isn't the same as the lived experience of many others, who happen to qualify, from theirs.
I remember reading Stoic philosophy and both liking it and realizing these were lessons I already, intrinsically knew. Oh, I have little control in this world? Yeah, I know. Oh, I have to control my emotions? Yeah, I know. I am powerless, and need to make peace with that lest I make myself miserable? Yeah, I know. Water is wet and the sky is blue. Women ALREADY know. There are few "new" lessons stoicism can teach to women. I think the process of female socialization does a lot of the behavioral modification parts of stoicism automatically. I was always confused when men said women were "allowed" to be emotional because... No we aren't? Emotional outbursts are punished quickly and derided in girls/women. I still like it and read it because I like the affirmation, but ... The people who need it are the people for whom these lessons are not as obvious ( aka Men who need to get their own emotions, like anger, under control).
Yeah, i think the main thing women can express while men can't isn't actually an emotion, but kindness, and the wide spectrum of behavior that kindness entails. Because in oppressors attempt to dismantle the solidarity that could power movements against their exploitation, it quickly became obvious kindness couldn't be done away with entirely. Because without kindness, fragile human children would never reach adulthood. The hyper individualistic, hyper competitive "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" mentality just completely falls to pieces in the face of a helpless infant. So the basic human necessity of kindness was labeled feminine and shunted to women's work. Still functioning in communities, but barred from a leadership role that would pose a threat to the various parasitic hierarchies trying to keep the peasants under control.
Epicurean philosophy is probably much more women-friendly. When Epicurus left Athens for a few months, he actually left Leontion in charge of the Epicurean Garden, which was considered scandalous by some traditionalists like Cicero. She was a hetaira, teacher, philosopher, and author. Other women from the Epicurean Garden were Batis, Hedeia, Mammarion.
As a man who has a fondness for Stoicism, I think this is a legitimate argument for a way in which Stoicism also fails men by offering a narrow view of virtue, and perhaps even a narrow view of masculinity. Heartily endorse the suggestion for seekers of all genders to seek a balance of yin & yang through many different practices & traditions
"One must imagine Sisyphus happy" - I never understood that, and it always kinda annoyed me. Why would anyone be happy to continually roll a giant boulder up a mountain only for it to roll back down an infinite number of times, better just to unalive yourself if that's all your life is and all its ever gonna be. I guess if you interpret it metaphorically as a struggle towards the heights its not so bad as a literal boulder lol. But some peoples actual lives aren't that far off from endless boulder rolling. I guess we can always find something to live for even if 99% of our life is shit we can focus on the 1% that's nice, like if Sisyphus saw a little flower by the side of the path everytime he went up. Then he would have something to look forward to every day. Or if boulder rolling was how he provided for his wife and kids that could give it meaning, even though the task itself is meaningless. I guess that's probably the situation a lot of people are in since our society and economy is so shit and forces people to spend most of their time doing meaningless robotic tasks at work and even at home just to stay alive and pay bills. Still you have the tragic sense of missed opportunities and wasted potential of humanity. The other problem I would have as Sisyphus is being aware of all the stupid and terrible things happening in the world and knowing I couldn't do anything about it because I have to roll my stupid boulder up the hill and that takes all my time and energy. Like the feeling you get whenever u watch CNN lol. "Corrupt politicians you idiots voted for pass terrible legislation that will harm many lives and are smug about it" may as well be the headline for every broadcast. I guess we just have to be content with the small things we can control in our lives and accept we cant do much to change the world. Like that old prayer that goes "Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." Just talking to myself lol
The quote comes from "The Myth of Sisyphus" by Albert Camus. He uses Sisyphus as a metaphor for the Absurd (capital A) nature of humanity. The idea is that Sisyphus is constantly striving to complete an impossible task, much like we strive to find meaning in an apparently meaningless world. For Camus, the search for meaning in life is a Sisyphean task because meaning can never be found. We must imagine Sisyphus happy because that would mean that we could find happiness in our own purposeless, futile lives. If Sisyphus can't be content with his meaningless and impossible task, even after all these years of doing it, what hope could there be for us? We must imagine Sisyphus happy because, if we don't, we will weep ourselves.
Excellent. As a 70 year old woman and widow I am long past family life, which I loved, but now I also enjoy the loss of so much estrogen which, in hind sight, can some times be a bit crazy making. So grateful that I experienced all that but also loving a new life without it. I now see why the stoics have more appeal to me at this time in life, thank you for your insight. Look forward to hearing more of your thoughts.
I enjoyed your comment😊 I feel the same way that hormones can make us all lose our minds, men and women. So much more clarity comes with age. It is almost like a new life. I'm in my early 40s but feel much more settled and calmer now that I can feel my hormones starting to shift. I feel much better than in my 20s and 30s. It's like seeing a part of the world go by without me and being relieved I'm not a part of it! 😂 For some people, that is terrifying but for myself, it's gratitude and relief. I look forward to getting older.
Thats super interesting! I wonder if gender differences become less after 60+. Like male aggression dies down as testosterone drops and they become more empathetic but idk how women change.
I feel the same. Two years post at 55. Estrogen was my enemy. Lol. I can finally put my emotions where they belong. They’re warning signals, not marching orders. I can think clearly and make decisions from a simpler place. And my beard is coming in quite nicely too. 😉
I'm sorry, I think you're mistaken about some very vital, core things to understand about Stoicism. For one, "podcast Stoicism" is pretty far removed from what actual ancient Stoics taught. If they've read anything on Stoicism, it's usually limited to, like, Marcus Aurelius, who wasn't a Stoic and killed the movement. Secondly, Stoicism wasn't predominantly male in ancient times. It was one of the few schools of philosophy that taught the equality of women and that women could join and learn from. Most Stoics didn't write. The academics were responsible with writing and preserving writings. They're why historical Stoics we know are mostly men.
Addendum 1: The values that you mention that aren't represented in Stoicism are explicitly considered to be a part of the virtue of justice in several Stoic works. Especially Chrysippus and Epictetus. Zeno even wrote his own version of Republic, with his own recommendations for community building based on compassion and empathy. It's one of the first Stoic works we know about.
Addendum 2: Stoicism isn't against emotion. Sometimes "pathos" is translated as "emotion," but it's better translated as "passion." Even that is misleading in a modern setting, because it's not talking about ambition or something you enjoy doing. The closest modern analogue is the concept of "pathological thought patterns," which is even named after the Greek "pathos."
Addendum 3: This addendum might seem a bit nitpicky, but Epictetus was literally a slave. He did not have independence. A lot of his advice came from a background of dependence. And he's one of the most famous Stoic philosophers because of it. He also taught mixed gender audiences. I think you're deeply mischaracterizing Stoicism by trying to paint it as "by privileged men for privileged men."
Addendum 4: Ancient Stoics did give advice about parenting and they advocated for people to view themselves as merely one part of the collective of rational beings. That's why they created cosmopolitanism and summum bonum. Bonus: The study you're referencing isn't about Stoic philosophy, but stoicism as a personality trait or cultural value, which has almost nothing to do with the philosophy.
Our family home caught fire in January and we have been displaced since. Through the whole ordeal so many people have told me how well I've been emotionally handling the situation. I looked into stoicism and decided that perhaps I'm a stoic. Learning about this philosophy has been interesting and even affirming. Stoicism has actually helped me be a better mom. When my child is upset or overly emotional it's good that I can be calm to meet my child where they are. It's not good for both of us to be out of control emotionally. My child needs me to react with stability. Kind of like the scene in Inside Out 2 during the anxiety attack. Joy remains calm as the parental figure as she works to reach the anxiety character and it works. When I read the works of Seneca he reiterated that stoicism is actually not about repressing emotions. He said that by living a good life focused on your values you can feel emotion more deeply. At least that's what I got out of it. And since it is simply a philosophy instead of a religion I feel the freedom to take from stoicism what I need and discard or rework what doesn't. I look forward to hearing more about what women have to contribute to this philosophy!
OMG! "It took me a long time to realize that my body was anything else than just the thing that took my head from room to room." OMG! You don't know how much I relate to that! That is me, 100%. I have always had coordination issues, and while I'm sure that part of it is due to physical factors, I think an even bigger part is the fact that I was raised to view my female body as something suspect, something sinful, something that had the potential to cause others (men) to sin, so yes. I'm now a senior and I am taking exercise classes at the local senior center and I'm learning to get in touch with my body in ways I never got in touch with it before. Because the life of the mind took priority over the life of the body when it came to my upbringing. I was taught, don't have sex before marriage, so I didn't, I was taught to be "modest", so I was, and now, I am finding at age 68, that I am having trouble with certain exercises and positions, not only because of natural aging (though that is a factor), but because psychologically, they are alien to me. I came to the same realization about my body in practically the same words that you just used only recently. I'm telling you, the Internet is one of the greatest inventions that humans have ever invented!
I received your book today, I haven’t finished it yet but from reading your story « where we meet » to reading the title of the other chapters, I can say I’m really excited to read it, and also really thankful for you for writing this book, and sharing your story with us, I hate to say your story hits home, and you describe beautifully painful of what’s going on in my head right now, but I’m here for it, as those doubts and questions keep coming back to bite me in the ass, and I don’t want to silence them anymore.
Britt's book is a great read. I have no fucking idea what she was talking about when she was coming off of the Mormon guys gold tablets and she discovered she was made of carbon👌 🙃 I guess although I'm Christian I always studied game theory or algos so I was never surprised.
Also I wish you Mormons were warned that nietzsche only wrote of Nihilism as philosophy because he hated that he was limited to philosophy and that he could only get published in a woman's magazine. Nietzsche is deliberately misinterpreted to create a deep and wise character rather than a failed author.
Yeah, I think that things like interdependence and community are also essential for males. As in: most of us can function without it to some degree, but the vast majority of us do way better with healthy and deep connections. And it's interesting, because that's what I read in Seneca's writings. But that's how far my first hand knowledge goes. I read most about Stoïcism through contemporary writers. I think especially people like Holiday paint a very simplified and amaricanized picture of stoïcism. That one dimensionality comes through.
It's always pleasant to listen to you speak on things that matter Brit. I don't know why I cried throughout listening but I did, there's just so much to unlearn and relearn. Thank you for the insights.
I have read Marcus Aurelius and other stoic writings. I agree, it is slanted for men and this is a product of the time it was written. As you have said, it needs a feminine upgrade to catch up with human evolution. When we evolve to the point we recognize that masculine and feminine attributes are designed provide balance for the survival of mankind, we will have arrive at full adulthood as a species.
I love this, thank you so much. About 5 years ago I started reading about Stoicism and Buddhism. They have a lot in common; I took from both of them what resonated with. But I've been missing someone; what you said helps a lot. Thanks again. I subbed.
I think you could ask the same question of a lot of things: why aren't there more women in X? Why aren't there more women philosophers? Why aren't there more women atheists? I remember a question one of my hijab-wearing classmates in college asked, why aren't there more American women in STEM? Here she was, from Iran, a country that is not known for women's rights, wearing an article of clothing that most American women would view as oppressive, and she was saying that she was the only woman in her engineering class. Why is that? she wondered. American women have so many more opportunities, so many more freedoms, than women in Iran, and yet . . . I did not know how to answer her. I never expected to be challenged by a Muslim woman from Iran, of all places. I'm not saying we all have to go down the same path and we all have different interests, but I too have wondered this. I think possibly the answer to this is socialization. As a woman who does have interests that are not exactly "gender-conforming", I can attest to the social isolation that can come as a result if you are in the wrong environment. Outside of academia, women are not encouraged to be deep thinkers, particularly in certain religious environments.
Smashing the hell out of that [Like] button again! Thank you so much for making this! I would like to add that as an autistic person, I have my own thoughts about how neurodivergent people can have needs that are unmet by the mainstream of society, religious or not.
I don't get why certain abilities like empathy, compassion and forgiveness are supposed to be feminine and wisdom, courage, etc. are supposed to be masculine. Everyone can have such abilities regardless of their sex or gender. Seneca also wrote and talked about stoic methodology to a grieving mother, not just to other men. Stoicism was actually one of the first philosophies that included others like women and slaves. I rather have a stoic mother than an overly emotional mother. In tough situations you need someone who will keep you grounded, stay strong and logical, not someone who will cry and make you feel even worse than you already feel and someone you need to worry about in addition to your own problems. I'm female and stoicism has helped me a lot. It's very relatable especially for a very emotional person like me. That's why I was very confused by this video and it really doesn't make any sense to me.
I think you are seeing things in extremes, as someone who grew up with Stoic parents, it wasn't that great either, and I'm probably just as dysfunctional as anyone who has had "overly emotional" parents, I'm very bad at understanding, identifying and expressing my feelings and emotions, because I just go straight to how to fix things because that was all I learnt, there was never space for feelings so nowadays I don't feel much of anything, people see me as cold, and it has affected my relationships. What I think is needed is a middle ground, the wisdom to understand where being more emotional or more logical is appropriate and that depends on many variables, sometimes people don't want solutions, they want someone to listen to them and empathise, sometimes they want help with a game plan.
@@bluester7177 Being stoic doesn't mean you don't listen to people and empathise with them. If you go straight to fixing things then you do have the awareness of the situation including your negative emotions towards that situation otherwise you wouldn't want to fix it in the first place. In addition to that, focusing on fixing it will actually lead to change and improving the situation instead of being stuck in emotions which doesn't really lead you anywhere. Being perceived as cold is only really an issue if it comes to how you treat others. Since stoics also focus on the value and importance of all humans as well as contributing to society, I don't think Stoics would be perceived as cold. Especially if you know about the Stoic ontology of the logos connecting everyone and everything in a spiritual way.
She does seem to misrepresent/misunderstand some Stoic ideas; for example: Stoicism does include inter-dependence (uhm, cosmos, cosmopolitanism, political theory etc); egalitarianism (women are encouraged to study philosophy, see Musonius Rufus); emotions are products of reason as pre-conceptions and judgements, most emotions are errors (pathos, negative emotions) about what is good/bad but some are not (feeling joy when excelling at virtue, e.g.); the four virtues are more like categories and not "subsets"; the essential doctrines of Stoicism include more than just the practical aspects, e.g. metaphysical claims, knowledge claims, the Sage, etc.
@@cypress_piperI understand and don't see a problem if people don't resonate with a certain philosophy but to misrepresent a philosophy and make a whole video on it is concerning especially considering that there are people in the comments agreeing with her while also openly admitting that they don't really know anything or much about this philosophy.
"Children are irrational." Now, my late mother would be horrified if anyone called her a Stoic; I'm sure, because she was an educated woman and widely read, that she would be familiar with the term, but she would deny that it had anything to do with her. And yet, I can see elements of Stoicism in the way I was raised. I was expected to be rational, even as a child; in fact, I was labeled "emotionally disturbed" at one point in my life and went through extensive behavioral modification and therapy, including drugs, to make me into something more socially acceptable. If you are a Stoic parent, a child cannot be a child; childishness must be put away as soon as possible, irrationality must be transformed into rationality, and if you are a child of said parent, you must learn to behave and think like an adult. You know that poem, "Children learn what they live. If a child lives with criticism, then they learn to be shy" and so forth? Well, if you have been brought up in a "Stoic household" you will find that that is not true. It does not matter what a child lives. It matters what the child CHOOSES. The child can choose not to be shy. But, you might say, a child is not capable of making that choice. Doesn't matter. According to the Stoic philosophy, or at least according to how I was raised, a child IS capable of making that choice and MUST make that choice. I have never liked the argument that it doesn't matter what others do to you, it's how you react to it that matters. Maybe there is a kernel of truth in that, but in my experience when I hear someone say that, it means "I can do as I please to you and if you don't like it, that's on you, not me. I don't have to change my behavior one iota." Perhaps that is a distortion of Stoic philosophy, and it probably is, but like all things, it does have the potential to be abusive and harmful, which is something we all need to be on guard against.
I am looking for resources/videos about confronting death and coming to terms with the circle of life. I feel like I have done this well after deconstruction, embracing my intuition and allowing death to have its meaning and purpose and beauty, but would love to hear what you have to say on the matter.
So far the best summary of the points and the missing points in the stoicism from the side of femininity. I would like much you expand it as stoicism misses on the tools for sexuallity and eroticism as a spacial case of a creative relation.
How much study have you completed on Stoic Philosophy? It seems there are so many lessons you have not yet come across, e.g., the role ethics of Epictetus, Oekeiosis of Hierocles, a firmer understanding of the virtues. With further study you will learn that a lot of what you are challenging do not ring true when the philosophy is understood at a deeper level.
I always found it odd how stoic talk is dominated by men but this explains a lot, definitely going to put that Modern Stoicism article on my to read list.
I think we need a social agreement for jester stand up comics where they purposely mock everyone to keep them from being overly prideful like people on stage like in ancient Greece could do without fear of retaliation. There was a important social reasoning for such positions. Sorry tangent. Great video i needed it 😂
I've never been drawn to stoicism and I don't even have children. Perhaps it's subconsciously the lack of female rolemodels and men connecting stoicism to the redpill movement. Personally I feel like I already know what to do with my emotions (through talks with friends, spiritually, therapy), so things that men in our society maybe don't have. Another thing is that stoicism places virtue over happiness, which I think is stupid. I can only ever do something if I believe it will make me happier (short or longterm).
So what would be a philosophy that takes the “amor fati” and “momento mori” ideas, but instead of channeling that into an independence, channels that towards a more… idk… social or community-based virtues? The embracing of ones own limitations, therefore encouraging one to be radically social and family-driven?
@@ineax7447 I’ve not gotten that impression from anything I’ve heard on the topic of stoicism. The virtue it seems to impart is the overcoming of emotional weakness through determination. If anything, i would describe that as radical internalization of one’s thoughts to foster self purity and simplification. Obviously I’m not claiming authority, I’m seeking to understand, so i apologize if I’m misrepresenting the philosophy.
@@Salamander_falls It's really just trying to look outside one's own box of perception/emotions/etc. which helps with right actions and decisions even in challenging situations. You can look up the stoic theory of appropriation or "oikeiôsis".
@@ineax7447 Exactly! I'm not sure how she missed the cosmopolitanism in Stoicism if she did her homework. Interdependence is a part of our nature: we are rational AND social creatures per Stoicism.
@@Salamander_falls The core idea of Stoicism is to think constructively about what we can actually control in order to better help others and ourselves. It's not about demonizing emotions. That comes from a misunderstanding of the Stoic passions, which are more like pathological thought patterns or common habitual ways of thinking that are based in error.
As a young man in my 20s flirting with stoicism, this video really helped show me that it is just a masculine fantasy rather than a true reality to solely live the world by
Hundreds of millions of years of evolution of the sexes has yielded functional differences between males and females. The male is larger and stronger and assumed the role of hunting, protecting, and strategizing with the aim of improving survival through increasing power and strength. The female, being often impregnated, assumed the role of reproduction and nurturing with the aim of improving survival through kinship and social connection. Formal education (academia) and philosophy and stoicism are a late phenomena with at least two relevant dimensions: 1) yet another realm in which the male can posture to other males for greater dominance and power - the male is inclined demonstrate his dominance over other males by superior argument, reasoning, and knowledge 2) education/philosophy/stoicism draw the male attention because they are a resource/tool to possibly expand his power and dominion - the male is inclined to use knowledge to gain power. Yes - philosophy/stoicism was developed by men and for men - but also because it benefits the evolved male more than the evolved female. Conversely, monogamy, sexual choice, emotional intelligence, and submissive advantage benefit the evolved female more than the evolved male. A woman can benefit from stoicism, sure. But, the evolved female does not benefit from it nearly as much as the evolved male, if at all.
I don't find meditations that useful it's interesting don't regret reading it but not as useful at reading Socrates trial or about diogenes or the cave allegory. I guess it's like what has gone on in my head already but lacking in reality the world is more like a circus 🎪 🤔 and the overt structure ideas to walking apes that aren't self aware is like lipstick on a pig maybe more appropriate for people in higher positions of society where they are more insulated from the hordes. 😂
16:26 ok but, that explains historical differences, the context you're presenting is the traditional one. Modern women are more and more independent and the traditional roles have been significantly reduced in modern society, a career woman has no different concerns and aspirations than a career man has, yet we still see men reaching for stoicism and women reaching for manifestation and spirituality. You answered why stoicism was less popular with women in the past, but why aren't we seeing a rise in popularity of stoicism with women - nowadays?
Stoicism appeals to those who have suffered deeply. In the East, it is harder to be a woman. In the West, it is harder to be a man. We are the West, and on top of that, the expectations placed on men are far more demanding. Add to that that at any time, any woman can point the finger at you and have you arrested without a shred of evidence, whereas the reverse is not true. You can not criticize women without suffering the West's worldwide condemnation and scorn There is an old saying, "Tell me who can not be made fun of nor criticized, and I will show you who has the power." The reverse is true in the East, Middle East, and Africa, where women suffer more and have fewer rights (some place far fewer rights) than the men.
I'm a woman from a western country and Stoicism has helped me in my every day life. It's not about east or west nor man or woman, it's about resonance. If you resonate with this philosophy you will actually be interested in looking into it and learning how great and helpful it actually can be to everyone.
As a woman, my experience has been that I've been demonized for having emotions, and for hiding them. My experience is that there are too many misogynists who rigged a game where women lose no matter what. If we have emotions like full humans do, this is cast as weakness, whereas if we try to hide emotions like men are allowed to do in such treacherous environments, we are cast as cold and unfeminine. There is no winning a game men invented for men, and to disenfranchise and excise of our humanity and rights as human women.
Very well said @kristinmeyer489
I love (and also hate) this so much
I agree. If you're a man with emotions, you're called Jesus. If you're a man with no emotions, you're called stoic or sigma wolf or whatever silly title has popped up these days 😂
As a woman of mixed race, I've given up this game a long time ago since I've always seen it as rigged. I am just myself, the world can take it or leave it.
Everyone will make this discovery at some point in their life. As they age, their bodies fail them and their looks fade, they realize the world isn't built for the elderly, or the disabled, or those who don't fit into a narrow box.
Basically, just love yourself, make yourself happy, help those who you love and find joy in your own little universe.
Let the rest of the world play their game.
No baggage at all in your analysis. Totally unmotivated reasoning.
@@xandercorp6175 Besides my own opinion, which is what it is (qualified as from experience), 30 others who've read my opinion based in my experience seem to prove my sentiments resonate with them. Versus your assertion, apparently that I'm baseless.
Of course your experience isn't the same as the lived experience of many others, who happen to qualify, from theirs.
@@kristinmeyer489 Long-winded way of saying "Nuh-uh uh I've got more likes so it proves I'm right!"
I remember reading Stoic philosophy and both liking it and realizing these were lessons I already, intrinsically knew. Oh, I have little control in this world? Yeah, I know. Oh, I have to control my emotions? Yeah, I know. I am powerless, and need to make peace with that lest I make myself miserable? Yeah, I know. Water is wet and the sky is blue.
Women ALREADY know. There are few "new" lessons stoicism can teach to women. I think the process of female socialization does a lot of the behavioral modification parts of stoicism automatically. I was always confused when men said women were "allowed" to be emotional because... No we aren't? Emotional outbursts are punished quickly and derided in girls/women.
I still like it and read it because I like the affirmation, but ... The people who need it are the people for whom these lessons are not as obvious ( aka Men who need to get their own emotions, like anger, under control).
Yeah, i think the main thing women can express while men can't isn't actually an emotion, but kindness, and the wide spectrum of behavior that kindness entails. Because in oppressors attempt to dismantle the solidarity that could power movements against their exploitation, it quickly became obvious kindness couldn't be done away with entirely. Because without kindness, fragile human children would never reach adulthood. The hyper individualistic, hyper competitive "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" mentality just completely falls to pieces in the face of a helpless infant. So the basic human necessity of kindness was labeled feminine and shunted to women's work. Still functioning in communities, but barred from a leadership role that would pose a threat to the various parasitic hierarchies trying to keep the peasants under control.
Epicurean philosophy is probably much more women-friendly. When Epicurus left Athens for a few months, he actually left Leontion in charge of the Epicurean Garden, which was considered scandalous by some traditionalists like Cicero. She was a hetaira, teacher, philosopher, and author. Other women from the Epicurean Garden were Batis, Hedeia, Mammarion.
As a man who has a fondness for Stoicism, I think this is a legitimate argument for a way in which Stoicism also fails men by offering a narrow view of virtue, and perhaps even a narrow view of masculinity. Heartily endorse the suggestion for seekers of all genders to seek a balance of yin & yang through many different practices & traditions
"One must imagine Sisyphus happy" - I never understood that, and it always kinda annoyed me. Why would anyone be happy to continually roll a giant boulder up a mountain only for it to roll back down an infinite number of times, better just to unalive yourself if that's all your life is and all its ever gonna be. I guess if you interpret it metaphorically as a struggle towards the heights its not so bad as a literal boulder lol. But some peoples actual lives aren't that far off from endless boulder rolling. I guess we can always find something to live for even if 99% of our life is shit we can focus on the 1% that's nice, like if Sisyphus saw a little flower by the side of the path everytime he went up. Then he would have something to look forward to every day. Or if boulder rolling was how he provided for his wife and kids that could give it meaning, even though the task itself is meaningless. I guess that's probably the situation a lot of people are in since our society and economy is so shit and forces people to spend most of their time doing meaningless robotic tasks at work and even at home just to stay alive and pay bills. Still you have the tragic sense of missed opportunities and wasted potential of humanity.
The other problem I would have as Sisyphus is being aware of all the stupid and terrible things happening in the world and knowing I couldn't do anything about it because I have to roll my stupid boulder up the hill and that takes all my time and energy. Like the feeling you get whenever u watch CNN lol. "Corrupt politicians you idiots voted for pass terrible legislation that will harm many lives and are smug about it" may as well be the headline for every broadcast. I guess we just have to be content with the small things we can control in our lives and accept we cant do much to change the world. Like that old prayer that goes "Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." Just talking to myself lol
The quote comes from "The Myth of Sisyphus" by Albert Camus. He uses Sisyphus as a metaphor for the Absurd (capital A) nature of humanity. The idea is that Sisyphus is constantly striving to complete an impossible task, much like we strive to find meaning in an apparently meaningless world. For Camus, the search for meaning in life is a Sisyphean task because meaning can never be found. We must imagine Sisyphus happy because that would mean that we could find happiness in our own purposeless, futile lives. If Sisyphus can't be content with his meaningless and impossible task, even after all these years of doing it, what hope could there be for us? We must imagine Sisyphus happy because, if we don't, we will weep ourselves.
Ps, your content has been immensely helpful for me. So very grateful to have found your channel.
Excellent. As a 70 year old woman and widow I am long past family life, which I loved, but now I also enjoy the loss of so much estrogen which, in hind sight, can some times be a bit crazy making. So grateful that I experienced all that but also loving a new life without it. I now see why the stoics have more appeal to me at this time in life, thank you for your insight. Look forward to hearing more of your thoughts.
I enjoyed your comment😊
I feel the same way that hormones can make us all lose our minds, men and women. So much more clarity comes with age. It is almost like a new life. I'm in my early 40s but feel much more settled and calmer now that I can feel my hormones starting to shift. I feel much better than in my 20s and 30s. It's like seeing a part of the world go by without me and being relieved I'm not a part of it! 😂
For some people, that is terrifying but for myself, it's gratitude and relief. I look forward to getting older.
Glad to hear you are doing well.
@@coolbreeze5683 Plato described it as "being free from the tyranny of a great many demented masters" lol
Thats super interesting! I wonder if gender differences become less after 60+. Like male aggression dies down as testosterone drops and they become more empathetic but idk how women change.
I feel the same. Two years post at 55. Estrogen was my enemy. Lol. I can finally put my emotions where they belong. They’re warning signals, not marching orders. I can think clearly and make decisions from a simpler place. And my beard is coming in quite nicely too. 😉
FINALLY! SOMEONE SAYING SOMETHING I KNEW BUT COULDN'T VERBALIZE!!! THANK YOU!!
I'm sorry, I think you're mistaken about some very vital, core things to understand about Stoicism. For one, "podcast Stoicism" is pretty far removed from what actual ancient Stoics taught. If they've read anything on Stoicism, it's usually limited to, like, Marcus Aurelius, who wasn't a Stoic and killed the movement.
Secondly, Stoicism wasn't predominantly male in ancient times. It was one of the few schools of philosophy that taught the equality of women and that women could join and learn from. Most Stoics didn't write. The academics were responsible with writing and preserving writings. They're why historical Stoics we know are mostly men.
Addendum 1: The values that you mention that aren't represented in Stoicism are explicitly considered to be a part of the virtue of justice in several Stoic works. Especially Chrysippus and Epictetus. Zeno even wrote his own version of Republic, with his own recommendations for community building based on compassion and empathy. It's one of the first Stoic works we know about.
Addendum 2: Stoicism isn't against emotion. Sometimes "pathos" is translated as "emotion," but it's better translated as "passion." Even that is misleading in a modern setting, because it's not talking about ambition or something you enjoy doing. The closest modern analogue is the concept of "pathological thought patterns," which is even named after the Greek "pathos."
Addendum 3: This addendum might seem a bit nitpicky, but Epictetus was literally a slave. He did not have independence. A lot of his advice came from a background of dependence. And he's one of the most famous Stoic philosophers because of it. He also taught mixed gender audiences. I think you're deeply mischaracterizing Stoicism by trying to paint it as "by privileged men for privileged men."
Addendum 4: Ancient Stoics did give advice about parenting and they advocated for people to view themselves as merely one part of the collective of rational beings. That's why they created cosmopolitanism and summum bonum.
Bonus: The study you're referencing isn't about Stoic philosophy, but stoicism as a personality trait or cultural value, which has almost nothing to do with the philosophy.
I found this extremely refreshing and especially relatable as a girl interested in philosophy and spirituality. You have a new subscriber!
Our family home caught fire in January and we have been displaced since. Through the whole ordeal so many people have told me how well I've been emotionally handling the situation. I looked into stoicism and decided that perhaps I'm a stoic. Learning about this philosophy has been interesting and even affirming.
Stoicism has actually helped me be a better mom. When my child is upset or overly emotional it's good that I can be calm to meet my child where they are. It's not good for both of us to be out of control emotionally. My child needs me to react with stability. Kind of like the scene in Inside Out 2 during the anxiety attack. Joy remains calm as the parental figure as she works to reach the anxiety character and it works. When I read the works of Seneca he reiterated that stoicism is actually not about repressing emotions. He said that by living a good life focused on your values you can feel emotion more deeply. At least that's what I got out of it.
And since it is simply a philosophy instead of a religion I feel the freedom to take from stoicism what I need and discard or rework what doesn't. I look forward to hearing more about what women have to contribute to this philosophy!
OMG! "It took me a long time to realize that my body was anything else than just the thing that took my head from room to room." OMG! You don't know how much I relate to that! That is me, 100%. I have always had coordination issues, and while I'm sure that part of it is due to physical factors, I think an even bigger part is the fact that I was raised to view my female body as something suspect, something sinful, something that had the potential to cause others (men) to sin, so yes. I'm now a senior and I am taking exercise classes at the local senior center and I'm learning to get in touch with my body in ways I never got in touch with it before. Because the life of the mind took priority over the life of the body when it came to my upbringing. I was taught, don't have sex before marriage, so I didn't, I was taught to be "modest", so I was, and now, I am finding at age 68, that I am having trouble with certain exercises and positions, not only because of natural aging (though that is a factor), but because psychologically, they are alien to me. I came to the same realization about my body in practically the same words that you just used only recently. I'm telling you, the Internet is one of the greatest inventions that humans have ever invented!
I received your book today, I haven’t finished it yet but from reading your story « where we meet » to reading the title of the other chapters, I can say I’m really excited to read it, and also really thankful for you for writing this book, and sharing your story with us, I hate to say your story hits home, and you describe beautifully painful of what’s going on in my head right now, but I’m here for it, as those doubts and questions keep coming back to bite me in the ass, and I don’t want to silence them anymore.
Britt's book is a great read. I have no fucking idea what she was talking about when she was coming off of the Mormon guys gold tablets and she discovered she was made of carbon👌 🙃 I guess although I'm Christian I always studied game theory or algos so I was never surprised.
Also I wish you Mormons were warned that nietzsche only wrote of Nihilism as philosophy because he hated that he was limited to philosophy and that he could only get published in a woman's magazine. Nietzsche is deliberately misinterpreted to create a deep and wise character rather than a failed author.
I really adore Britt for her clear and passionate one liner sentences. Humanity would benefit if she could do this alongside others.
Yeah, I think that things like interdependence and community are also essential for males. As in: most of us can function without it to some degree, but the vast majority of us do way better with healthy and deep connections. And it's interesting, because that's what I read in Seneca's writings. But that's how far my first hand knowledge goes. I read most about Stoïcism through contemporary writers. I think especially people like Holiday paint a very simplified and amaricanized picture of stoïcism. That one dimensionality comes through.
Great video. Thanks.
It's always pleasant to listen to you speak on things that matter Brit. I don't know why I cried throughout listening but I did, there's just so much to unlearn and relearn. Thank you for the insights.
For me, realizing that emotions are a function of the Limbic System allows me to choose what emotions I feel.
I have read Marcus Aurelius and other stoic writings. I agree, it is slanted for men and this is a product of the time it was written. As you have said, it needs a feminine upgrade to catch up with human evolution. When we evolve to the point we recognize that masculine and feminine attributes are designed provide balance for the survival of mankind, we will have arrive at full adulthood as a species.
I love this, thank you so much. About 5 years ago I started reading about Stoicism and Buddhism. They have a lot in common; I took from both of them what resonated with. But I've been missing someone; what you said helps a lot. Thanks again. I subbed.
This is a great video, and a very clear-headed summary.
I think you could ask the same question of a lot of things: why aren't there more women in X? Why aren't there more women philosophers? Why aren't there more women atheists? I remember a question one of my hijab-wearing classmates in college asked, why aren't there more American women in STEM? Here she was, from Iran, a country that is not known for women's rights, wearing an article of clothing that most American women would view as oppressive, and she was saying that she was the only woman in her engineering class. Why is that? she wondered. American women have so many more opportunities, so many more freedoms, than women in Iran, and yet . . . I did not know how to answer her. I never expected to be challenged by a Muslim woman from Iran, of all places. I'm not saying we all have to go down the same path and we all have different interests, but I too have wondered this. I think possibly the answer to this is socialization. As a woman who does have interests that are not exactly "gender-conforming", I can attest to the social isolation that can come as a result if you are in the wrong environment. Outside of academia, women are not encouraged to be deep thinkers, particularly in certain religious environments.
Smashing the hell out of that [Like] button again! Thank you so much for making this!
I would like to add that as an autistic person, I have my own thoughts about how neurodivergent people can have needs that are unmet by the mainstream of society, religious or not.
I don't get why certain abilities like empathy, compassion and forgiveness are supposed to be feminine and wisdom, courage, etc. are supposed to be masculine. Everyone can have such abilities regardless of their sex or gender. Seneca also wrote and talked about stoic methodology to a grieving mother, not just to other men. Stoicism was actually one of the first philosophies that included others like women and slaves. I rather have a stoic mother than an overly emotional mother. In tough situations you need someone who will keep you grounded, stay strong and logical, not someone who will cry and make you feel even worse than you already feel and someone you need to worry about in addition to your own problems. I'm female and stoicism has helped me a lot. It's very relatable especially for a very emotional person like me. That's why I was very confused by this video and it really doesn't make any sense to me.
I think you are seeing things in extremes, as someone who grew up with Stoic parents, it wasn't that great either, and I'm probably just as dysfunctional as anyone who has had "overly emotional" parents, I'm very bad at understanding, identifying and expressing my feelings and emotions, because I just go straight to how to fix things because that was all I learnt, there was never space for feelings so nowadays I don't feel much of anything, people see me as cold, and it has affected my relationships.
What I think is needed is a middle ground, the wisdom to understand where being more emotional or more logical is appropriate and that depends on many variables, sometimes people don't want solutions, they want someone to listen to them and empathise, sometimes they want help with a game plan.
I'd rather have a stoic father and compassioned mother.
@@bluester7177 Being stoic doesn't mean you don't listen to people and empathise with them. If you go straight to fixing things then you do have the awareness of the situation including your negative emotions towards that situation otherwise you wouldn't want to fix it in the first place. In addition to that, focusing on fixing it will actually lead to change and improving the situation instead of being stuck in emotions which doesn't really lead you anywhere. Being perceived as cold is only really an issue if it comes to how you treat others. Since stoics also focus on the value and importance of all humans as well as contributing to society, I don't think Stoics would be perceived as cold. Especially if you know about the Stoic ontology of the logos connecting everyone and everything in a spiritual way.
She does seem to misrepresent/misunderstand some Stoic ideas; for example: Stoicism does include inter-dependence (uhm, cosmos, cosmopolitanism, political theory etc); egalitarianism (women are encouraged to study philosophy, see Musonius Rufus); emotions are products of reason as pre-conceptions and judgements, most emotions are errors (pathos, negative emotions) about what is good/bad but some are not (feeling joy when excelling at virtue, e.g.); the four virtues are more like categories and not "subsets"; the essential doctrines of Stoicism include more than just the practical aspects, e.g. metaphysical claims, knowledge claims, the Sage, etc.
@@cypress_piperI understand and don't see a problem if people don't resonate with a certain philosophy but to misrepresent a philosophy and make a whole video on it is concerning especially considering that there are people in the comments agreeing with her while also openly admitting that they don't really know anything or much about this philosophy.
Thank you! These are excellent points.
"Children are irrational." Now, my late mother would be horrified if anyone called her a Stoic; I'm sure, because she was an educated woman and widely read, that she would be familiar with the term, but she would deny that it had anything to do with her. And yet, I can see elements of Stoicism in the way I was raised. I was expected to be rational, even as a child; in fact, I was labeled "emotionally disturbed" at one point in my life and went through extensive behavioral modification and therapy, including drugs, to make me into something more socially acceptable. If you are a Stoic parent, a child cannot be a child; childishness must be put away as soon as possible, irrationality must be transformed into rationality, and if you are a child of said parent, you must learn to behave and think like an adult. You know that poem, "Children learn what they live. If a child lives with criticism, then they learn to be shy" and so forth? Well, if you have been brought up in a "Stoic household" you will find that that is not true. It does not matter what a child lives. It matters what the child CHOOSES. The child can choose not to be shy. But, you might say, a child is not capable of making that choice. Doesn't matter. According to the Stoic philosophy, or at least according to how I was raised, a child IS capable of making that choice and MUST make that choice. I have never liked the argument that it doesn't matter what others do to you, it's how you react to it that matters. Maybe there is a kernel of truth in that, but in my experience when I hear someone say that, it means "I can do as I please to you and if you don't like it, that's on you, not me. I don't have to change my behavior one iota." Perhaps that is a distortion of Stoic philosophy, and it probably is, but like all things, it does have the potential to be abusive and harmful, which is something we all need to be on guard against.
I am looking for resources/videos about confronting death and coming to terms with the circle of life. I feel like I have done this well after deconstruction, embracing my intuition and allowing death to have its meaning and purpose and beauty, but would love to hear what you have to say on the matter.
This is my second YT received and I am enthralled in its content. I subscribed immediately.
Philosophies are tools not answers. Use the appropriate tools for the problems you face.
I'm glad the algorithm brought me to you! ❤
So far the best summary of the points and the missing points in the stoicism from the side of femininity. I would like much you expand it as stoicism misses on the tools for sexuallity and eroticism as a spacial case of a creative relation.
I think we need more conversations about masculine and feminine energy/archetypes/human-intuition v.s. Language and Biology.
Stoicism is about self accountability which is kryptonite to women. Modern women especially cannot be by themselves. Stoicism IS for men, yes.
Its for men cause men lack discipline.
This is fantastic! Thank you!
How much study have you completed on Stoic Philosophy? It seems there are so many lessons you have not yet come across, e.g., the role ethics of Epictetus, Oekeiosis of Hierocles, a firmer understanding of the virtues. With further study you will learn that a lot of what you are challenging do not ring true when the philosophy is understood at a deeper level.
I always found it odd how stoic talk is dominated by men but this explains a lot, definitely going to put that Modern Stoicism article on my to read list.
Good points!
I follow you on TikTok and I’m so happy to find you here
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I think we need a social agreement for jester stand up comics where they purposely mock everyone to keep them from being overly prideful like people on stage like in ancient Greece could do without fear of retaliation. There was a important social reasoning for such positions. Sorry tangent. Great video i needed it 😂
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I've never been drawn to stoicism and I don't even have children. Perhaps it's subconsciously the lack of female rolemodels and men connecting stoicism to the redpill movement. Personally I feel like I already know what to do with my emotions (through talks with friends, spiritually, therapy), so things that men in our society maybe don't have. Another thing is that stoicism places virtue over happiness, which I think is stupid. I can only ever do something if I believe it will make me happier (short or longterm).
So what would be a philosophy that takes the “amor fati” and “momento mori” ideas, but instead of channeling that into an independence, channels that towards a more… idk… social or community-based virtues? The embracing of ones own limitations, therefore encouraging one to be radically social and family-driven?
Stoicism. Stoicsm focuses on the value of all humans and each person's important role within and contribution to society.
@@ineax7447 I’ve not gotten that impression from anything I’ve heard on the topic of stoicism. The virtue it seems to impart is the overcoming of emotional weakness through determination. If anything, i would describe that as radical internalization of one’s thoughts to foster self purity and simplification. Obviously I’m not claiming authority, I’m seeking to understand, so i apologize if I’m misrepresenting the philosophy.
@@Salamander_falls It's really just trying to look outside one's own box of perception/emotions/etc. which helps with right actions and decisions even in challenging situations. You can look up the stoic theory of appropriation or "oikeiôsis".
@@ineax7447 Exactly! I'm not sure how she missed the cosmopolitanism in Stoicism if she did her homework. Interdependence is a part of our nature: we are rational AND social creatures per Stoicism.
@@Salamander_falls The core idea of Stoicism is to think constructively about what we can actually control in order to better help others and ourselves. It's not about demonizing emotions. That comes from a misunderstanding of the Stoic passions, which are more like pathological thought patterns or common habitual ways of thinking that are based in error.
Because I’m busy summoning UFOs 🛸
I just realized I have a stoic mother. Yeah it sucked.
Who would have thought…
As a young man in my 20s flirting with stoicism, this video really helped show me that it is just a masculine fantasy rather than a true reality to solely live the world by
That's because most women are natural stoics 😊
Hundreds of millions of years of evolution of the sexes has yielded functional differences between males and females. The male is larger and stronger and assumed the role of hunting, protecting, and strategizing with the aim of improving survival through increasing power and strength. The female, being often impregnated, assumed the role of reproduction and nurturing with the aim of improving survival through kinship and social connection.
Formal education (academia) and philosophy and stoicism are a late phenomena with at least two relevant dimensions: 1) yet another realm in which the male can posture to other males for greater dominance and power - the male is inclined demonstrate his dominance over other males by superior argument, reasoning, and knowledge 2) education/philosophy/stoicism draw the male attention because they are a resource/tool to possibly expand his power and dominion - the male is inclined to use knowledge to gain power.
Yes - philosophy/stoicism was developed by men and for men - but also because it benefits the evolved male more than the evolved female. Conversely, monogamy, sexual choice, emotional intelligence, and submissive advantage benefit the evolved female more than the evolved male.
A woman can benefit from stoicism, sure. But, the evolved female does not benefit from it nearly as much as the evolved male, if at all.
I don't find meditations that useful it's interesting don't regret reading it but not as useful at reading Socrates trial or about diogenes or the cave allegory. I guess it's like what has gone on in my head already but lacking in reality the world is more like a circus 🎪 🤔 and the overt structure ideas to walking apes that aren't self aware is like lipstick on a pig maybe more appropriate for people in higher positions of society where they are more insulated from the hordes. 😂
16:26 ok but, that explains historical differences, the context you're presenting is the traditional one. Modern women are more and more independent and the traditional roles have been significantly reduced in modern society, a career woman has no different concerns and aspirations than a career man has, yet we still see men reaching for stoicism and women reaching for manifestation and spirituality.
You answered why stoicism was less popular with women in the past, but why aren't we seeing a rise in popularity of stoicism with women - nowadays?
Q:"Why no female stoics?"
A: Because Britt you have a "Masters" in philosophy not a "Mistress" in philosophy 😉
Just kidding there have been many women who could live blissful lives without thinking without a sense of self.
Atheist spirituality? Huh?
belief in the divine without the laws of religion. looking it up can send you into a deep dive of religion without spirituality as well
Stoicism appeals to those who have suffered deeply. In the East, it is harder to be a woman. In the West, it is harder to be a man. We are the West, and on top of that, the expectations placed on men are far more demanding. Add to that that at any time, any woman can point the finger at you and have you arrested without a shred of evidence, whereas the reverse is not true. You can not criticize women without suffering the West's worldwide condemnation and scorn There is an old saying, "Tell me who can not be made fun of nor criticized, and I will show you who has the power."
The reverse is true in the East, Middle East, and Africa, where women suffer more and have fewer rights (some place far fewer rights) than the men.
I'm a woman from a western country and Stoicism has helped me in my every day life. It's not about east or west nor man or woman, it's about resonance. If you resonate with this philosophy you will actually be interested in looking into it and learning how great and helpful it actually can be to everyone.
Thank you for this. 🩷