The TRUTH about Butt and Pass Method of Log Construction... Handmade House TV
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- What does Noah Bradley think of Butt and Pass? What does Noah think of log cabin kits?... Not much. If you want to learn more on this topic go to ... handmadehouses.... and if you would like to learn more about THE LOG CABIN ACADEMY... go here... handmadehouses...
I've been building butt and pass homes for over 15 years, have built over 100 homes in 20 different states. I've built homes as large as 12,000 sqft, with 4 floors of living space. I've also hand hewn countless logs to restore some of the oldest dovetailed cabins in the Appalachian mountains. Each style of construction has its pluses and minuses, but to denounce butt and pass shows your lack of knowledge. Is it for everyone? No. Is dovetailed hand hewn homes for everyone? No. Are brick ranches for everyone? No. But that doesn't mean they're not valid and legitimate ways to build. You can find examples of my work by searching Wiley Log Homes on TH-cam, Instagram, Facebook, or Google.
Howdy Ronny haven't got to speak with you since I left Facebook, hope you and your family are doing well.
8:28 He cautions us to be cautious about "listening to the recommendation from other individuals"
ha!.....isn't that what this video is all about????
Bottom line. Butt and Pass has advantages and those advantages are good for some people....not for others.
It's definitely simpler and easier to do. I've never built a log cabin but I have been researching it because I'm about to do just that. Norwegian style is beautiful but probably the most laborious and time consuming. I will probably use the plain saddle notching. I believe that it will work best for my skillset.
Love the hummingbirds behind you on the flowers
I appreciate your knowledge on this subject. However, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. To me, a a cabin is beautiful because I built it. Whether it's a traditional or butt and pass cabin I love it because it is mine.
I love hearing those birds and all the other ambient noise. Ahh nature...
Glad you like!
Also, don't put saw dust in the crawl space, this creates a breeding ground for pennicelium mold spores.
I think a butt and pass is a good option if you want to make a tool shed or something like that to make your saddle notch but you don’t have the time to build a saddle notch
I came out of the 1970's...LOL.
LOL. Thanks for chiming in Doug!
in the pictures at the end the logs do not look treated. They are all gray and look like they are rotting.
They are gray, untreated, and not rotting.
Все таки Николас Кейдж сильно постарел
There is nothing wrong with butt and pass.. If you are building by yourself or don't have 5 years to build then butt and pass is for you
compost :>
You Found Butt N Pass a threat to your style becuase its tooo complicated! BUTT N PASSis the best way to build!! NOTCHES ARE COMPLICATED!!! Dont LIE!
Umm no. There is a reason the pioneers and Europeans built with notches....because it is a superior method.
how is he a quack? He's been restoring cabins that are hundreds of years old. All he's saying is that notches are better which makes perfect sense. The slope of the notches shed water away whereas flat surfaces of butt and pass hold water. Also, the slopped notches lock the logs together whereas the flat surfaces of butt and pass don't. it's common sense. notched cabins are still standing strong without rot for centuries. Practice on a small structure to get good at cutting notches before you build your house. And I agree, butt and pass looks bad compared to traditional
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I grew up in Alaska. I did 4 Butt and Pass structures, 3 cabins and a garage. They all looked nice , had a good tight fit and stayed toasty warm. I never cared for the wide chinking in what you call traditional log homes. I felt like builders were cutting corners by not scribe fitting or getting a tight fit on a D log. If a person is happy with their build that’s what counts.
I hear what you are saying Dave and appreciate your comment. Thanks for tuning in!
How do you keep the inside warm in the cold? Me and my dad are building our own for the first time and idk if i need to do certain things for warmth
@@harvdog5669 it was here in North America for s few hundred years as well - the pining system is what is different in modern construction - freely available relatively low cost iron and steel has really only been available to the average person in and after the 20th century - today it’s available as rebar in your local box store.
Previous to the 20th century, the building technique used wood pins (hardwood being preferred). Or short iron spikes relative to log diameter and course heights when those became more common - neither fastener produced the hold and fastening longevity modern pinning systems do.
The attractiveness of the method was the reduced cuts required and minimal tools.
What you will find historically is it was mainly a method used for quick sturdy shelter -where green logs could not be seasoned prior to using them - and log settling would not be a concern (in most pinning systems settling does not occur as logs shrink in diameter towards their own centers and in so doing remain at a fairly constant height tightening around the pin - gaps between logs can enlarge but wall heights and any door or window openings remain relatively static In those heights)- often in small structures only corners would be pinned - chinking made of mud and straw or stiffed with moss or vegetation to block the wind.
The « inventor » claimed to have invented the process in the 1970’s in the video did not nor never claimed he invented it. He did create a project management ideology - that includes things beyond just measuring, cutting and assembling.
He applied several proven processes in other industries to log home building - not much different than taking liberty ship production process ideology and applying it to building toasters.
To my knowledge no other builder has done similar in the log home space.
It can be used to build just about any type of structure - ballon, stick frame, straw bail, Adobe, full scribe log etc. etc.
(Most of you may have heard that liberty expertise repackaged as kaizen in the 1980´s as an example of old ideas being given new life)
The building techniques themselves of pinning are more factually based in things like millennia old boat building techniques, probably the closer living relative being edge nailed strip planking - which also has roots in wooden trunnel fastenings - sinew or rope being used before that to sew edge planks together -or, it may have roots in dwellings that have never survived time - that ultimately influenced boat building. we don’t know.
Similar is also found in old military earthen works fortifications.
The main structural difference between a modern butt and pass structure and traditional notched corner structures is that the former is bomb proof - it must be built on site and can’t be built on a yard and disassembled and trucked to be reassembled elsewhere.
If you filled one with earth it would be s significant battlement.
The very corners of a notched structure is its weakness. Ironically, as it has no rigidity in the logs along the lengths between courses, unless of course, you pin them ….
It’s a long time progression of techniques tried by many over centuries. Not all were successes.
I would caution anyone watching this video to ask it’s author to post a vid on his own b&p build.
It’s far too easy to critique a process with which one has no practical experience.
I for one dont see what « arduous » pin hammering he’s talking about. It sounds like he’s never done it? Or, maybe bored incorrectly? Wrong sledge or hammer weight perhaps?
Be it a 1500 square foot two story structure or a 7000 sq foot three story … btw, that larger structure is going on close to the half century mark … never needed rechinking in the fist 30 when I last saw it - haven’t heard of the current . owners having had to either.
But going just as strong is the 2500 sqft full scribe log home built at around the sand time by the same hands ….
The larger has never been listed. Remaining in extended family. If interested you can find
it in episodes of Northern Exposure tv series - mostly external shots - internals at sound stages.
If you want to see an out in the open 30 plus year old example, one of that “inevetor’s student put one on hwy 104 as you leave Kingston, WA- just keep looking to your left - you won’t miss it.
I used to derive by it daily on my way to work for over a decade.
The interesting thing about that one is the prominent external ridge support poles. Most of the students examples I’ve seen place them internal to the walls.
There seems also a few resorts built in the system using the same methods. I know of two in the state built by students - one is on the Columbia near the Gorge and still a profitable resort. Originally built as five resort cabins its been expanded over the years. The other is in the cascades with a four story tower as a feature - yep, but a hexagonal butt had pass tower
You may also see various old and new builds on that inventors organizations website.
Students world wide still finish a few each year.
Ok I’m also a bit miffed at the jocular “us against them” tone in the vid - but it might stem from a feeling of needing to self justify. I know some might feel attacked by the “other camp.”
Many of us have no problems with any specific method so long as the finished structure is sound.
They all can produce long lived structures when done properly.
You build what you can where you are and can afford -
It’s then a matter of personal esthetics and choices.
Caveat Emptor
You go on and on denigrating people, then denigrating the butt and pass. You seem to be all about you and what you like. It's a pass on watching the rest of this vid and any of your other vids.
Log homes need large overhangs. Anything will rot if you don't keep the elements off it.
This guy is a quack, this guy insists out right that, butt & pass will be firewood in 30 yrs verses other traditional American pioneer log style cabins. This guy says that butt & pass is a 50 yr old method in the u.s. and is junk and has lots of problems and not to waste your money & time.. I want to hear from butt & pass cabin or home owners of such , and let them tell me what are the problems with such building..
Let's see...I took a class from 4th gen log home builders. The notch system you start out with a jacked up house...no really. You got to cut keyways over doors and windows and lower the house down as it settles. You ruin the integrity of the wood log by cutting a v shape to scribe to the log below...Water is your worse enemy...overhangs.
I thought it was supposed to be easier. Why is it more prone to rot?
It’s. Not. Rot in log homes comes primarily from two sources - improper protection of log from exposure to moisture, being built with log contact with earth.
Roof Overhangs lengths are a common mis in homes with upper course rot caused by external moisture.
Many commercial builders d’effer to building codes designed for modern stick frame and man made materials and coatings. In fact, many come out of those trades.
it’s not a particular log style problem but one of implementation in the build.
Same goes for ground source insect infestations in many cases - there is a scientific known height barrier for initial infestation of common ground source structure boring critters - it has never made it into any building code.
Chances are even your own dwelling’s vertical distance from ground to first wood isn’t in that range but below it. It’s a lot higher than most builders realize - and as it’s not in code - they aren’t liable for it. Nor should they be
But if you build your own house - observe that distance.
Many are still built with wood product siding touching a slab or concrete footing barely an inch or so off of soil. The plate might be pressure treated but that doesn’t prevent boring insects from climbing above it … and onto that still too close to the ground tasty wood. Flashing offers some but not total protection.
@@adubar do expand please on this. I'm learning. I 'm going to build a butt and pass shed. Someone said to char the bottom of the logs that touch the ground. Would a gravel foundation be better, then char? You could start your own channel just with what you've posted here!
Pretty sure he doesn’t like butt and pass. Good info.
That traditional look is better looking BUT very complicated to do that NOTCH system!!!
If the pioneers can do it, so can you! It's not too bad with patience and time. :)
Well right off the top you told a untruth about rot that is not a problem if you make 7" eves and I think it is hilarious that you actually say out loud not to trust people that have built a butt & pass for themselves and love it but at the same time you say that people who have built a butt and pass would never do it again. You sir are the worst kind of used car salesman.
Hey, thank you for the video, it's really useful
I have a question if you don't mind, the house at 14:52, how long did it take you to build, and how many folks did you have on hand to help?
PS: Those stone structures look beautiful
You are welcome. It's been a while, but it was about 9-10 months with a crew of 4 from start to finish, plus two masons to run with the chimney and other stone work.
I was the cutest darn thing born in the 70’s lol
Need proof.
LOL, this seems to be a theme I keep hearing whenever I critique the 70s!
For some reason I knew that you would be a waste of my time. You are unfounded in your reasoning. Good bye.
Thought the cop was coming after you didn’t you lol.
He probably should have been, lol
You're such a negative Nelly
Hey, I came out of the 1970's.
I grew up with crab apple trees, they are really beautiful. Love the new videos lately, thank you Noah
You are welcome mmh! Thank you for following along!
I do agree with you notching the logs are you better? You said anybody can do this. I am going to build my own cabin. I was going to do a button pass because I am legally blind. I don’t think that would be a good idea to try to do a notch. I would love to do a notch I think I would ruin warlords and what it’s worth
I appreciate you not liking "Butt and Pass", but, for engineering reasons, Why don`t you like it. Structure wise, log on log, it would be stronger, right?
See my reply to bearcat648 below -- you'll understand what Mr. Bradley is saying about B & P structures being inherently unstable (or words to that effect). There are a number of reasons not to like B & P, just as there are reasons to prefer it. I don't care for the method for a lot of reasons, a few of which I address in my other reply. Cheers, John
@@thefleepster4318 Thank you for chiming in Fleepstar!
@@thefleepster4318 Are there ruins of butt and pass log cabins strewn across North America?
modest l
That looks just about as bad as log siding. Fits right in with vinal fencing.
hugh im building butt and pass going so great time wise fast looks great u didnt give any reasons why am i missing somthing
I don't completely understand what a butt and pass home is, but the images show no chinking, which looks terrible. I had no interest in log cabins until I saw your work, with the stunning contrast between the light colored chinking and the dark wood.
bearcat: Check out a short video by Bam Bam Martial Arts Houson (posted 2.18.2011, 4:01 long) and you will see the basic method. Look at 0:54, 0:55 and 1:44 to see what butt-and-pass means. At :55 you'll see how Log A butts against Log B and the log Log A "passes" Log B. Rebar "pins" each log to the one beneath. Absent the rebar, the entire structure would be unstable -- logs would roll off at the butt end and possibly hang at the pass end.
I've seen two B & P homes in the local area (Western Washington). One had a rotten sill log and had been abandoned. At 1:44 of the Bam Bam video, you'll see gaps of varying widths along the entire length of the logs. Skip Ellsworth and his group recommend using a mortar-type mix for chinking. This requires that thousands of small nails be pounded about an inch apart along the logs to hold the chinking -- nails on the bottom of the upper log and the top of the lower log. For both homes I saw, the mortar chinking was separated from the wood because it doesn't adhere well, and also cracked and broken along the chinking's length. Air, water and pests infiltrate without any problem. Skip and his group say to go back over the chinking with more mortar after it shrinks. I don't know if the owners did that on those homes -- if they did, it didn't work. Using commercial chinking would be better, but of course expensive and not recommended by Skip/LHBA (the last time I read their webpage, which was years ago). I communicated with Skip before he died, and he seemed like a nice and generous man.
I don't care for the B & P method, but neither do I like hewn log homes, which is what Mr. Bradley builds. Hewn log homes are stable because of the notches, but essentially just slabs of wood that depend on chinking for weather-tightness. It's worked for Mr. Bradley and plenty of other people, but so has the B & P method -- do what suits you.
If you can learn how to fully scribe logs, I think that would be best (those types of structures have survived for hundreds of years in Sweden, Germany, etc.). A fully scribed home usually don't use chinking. Robert Chambers' book is one of the best I've read, but a dense read. Another book I have and which is called (I think) "The Alaskan Log Home" is also very good. I have about 15 or 20 books on the subject. Mackey's book on types of notches is probably still authoritative, but you may not be able to find a copy. And, no, I've never built a log home, but I studied them when I was thinking about it. I had a client involved with a "log home" company about 15 years ago, but those things could hardly be called log homes.
Sorry for the length of this reply, but it's hard to describe log home construction and their pluses and minuses in just a few words. I've barely covered the basics here. And, yes, I'm aware that bearcat may never read this - it's for anyone who has the same question. Cheers, John
@@thefleepster4318 I read it and I appreciate it, thank you! :-)
@@bearcat648 You're welcome. There is a confusing sentence above because I underlined a word and YT deleted it when I published my reply. It's the third sentence in the first paragraph and should read: At :55 you'll see how Log A butts against Log B and the log UNDER Log A "passes" Log B. Sorry for any confusion.
Also, I was referring to "Building the Alaska Log Home" by Tom Walker (c) 1984. I recommend it if you can find a copy. "Mackey" is B. Allan Mackie -- I found my copy of his "Log House Plans" (c) 1979 but I can't find his book on notches -- maybe I checked it out from our library and never owned it.
The "Alaska Log Building Construction Guide" from the Alaska Housing Finance Corporation (c) 1999 has a ton of information and is free online. To get it, go to the AHFC website; search for "log construction" in the query box, and click on the link that says, "Manuals, Forms and ... - Alaska Housing Finance Corporation" (under that heading you will see a reference to the Guide by name). The entire Guide will load; print or download as you wish. AHFC is a "self-supporting public corporation" according to their "About Us" page, so the good people of Alaska already paid for the Guide. Amazon now lists used Guides for $95. Cheers, John
you can also use tongue and groove for building a log cabin
Just did a quick google search. Read a bit of your article, and checked a few photos out. I agree, butt and pass, looks goofy, and is the lazy man's method
What do you do about carpenter bees?
PB blaster in the holes.
Bradley, keep up the good work. Your knowledge base is amazing and I enjoy your videos.
Thanks Dana, will do!
A question for you, Noah, is it O.k. to mix species of hardwood logs. When building a cabin. I have maple and large diameter aspen on my property.
Secondly: what do you think of stockade (vertical log) cabins. This style is attractive to me because anorher property has only smaller trees (6" diameter) and 8' logs are much easier to lift than 18' logs. Not to mention, with the taper, an 6"x18' log becomes pretty narrow at one end.
Hi Kenn. So sorry for being late in seeing this....Yes, you can mix hardword species.
As for the second question, yes, you can build that way, but I wouldn't recommend it. Working with spindly logs is not ideal, as there is not a lot of rot resistant heart wood within.
Its always tempting when someone tries to sell you the quick and easy path to get what you want, with lots of strong claims and testimonials. That's what the butt and pass thing is like. It reminds me of get rich quick investment schemes, miracle vitamins, Moonies, etc. You hit the nail on the head (no pun intended) when mentioning the relative merits of cutting and pounding countless rebar spikes vs cutting a notch. I can't see myself enjoying getting up on a 9th row of logs with a sledge hammer.
When you say traditional; do you mean full scribe, or scribing just the notches, with chinking?
Traditional in terms of the American log cabin (notches with chinking)...I am not referring to what are often considered Scandanavian methods, which certainly predate and influence the traditional American method.