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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 พ.ย. 2024
- Twitch: / mithrilda
So this is something that's been on my mind a lot. I'm only a bit into Evolve Artist so far, but if I get through it within the 2 years that I'm aiming for, what do I do next? Where do I go? How do I get learning the other stuff that I'm learning these fundamentals for like figure drawing knowledge, perspective, construction, and all that good stuff that'll help me start to translate this observational knowledge to stuff that can coax art out of my imagination?
Kevin was kind enough to give me some really good wisdom on this and recommend a specific book! Love me some specificity, haha. It feels good to have something queued up to catch me when I fall off the end of Evolve.
Book Mentioned:
"How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way" by Stan Lee and John Buscema
amzn.to/36p6UqQ
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^ my face after a night of creepypasta
![Proportional Drawing START! [Evolve Artist Block 2]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/rLfYNOH_HwM/mqdefault.jpg)
![FINISHED with Evolve Artist Block 3! [One Year Progress]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/rk1FhmRsSyo/mqdefault.jpg)
Love your videos. I just started Evolve and I am finding them very supportive throughout the process still three years later. This one was full of gems. Cheers!
I suspect that most people don't break things down as thoroughly for teaching purposes because they're not expecting to teach the kind of person like you and me: people who find it difficult to trust the process, people who have a million doubts, people who may need a different approach to learn, and people who are not already higher-level novices or intermediate.
One thing in my life I never struggled with is grasping the English language. On a certain level, I just "get it." Granted, the rest is just hard work, but I've talked to a lot of beginners, and almost all of them end up giving up for various reasons.Some get better than others before surrendering, but what I've noticed is that it's not specifically sucking at writing that makes people quit--many of these would-be writers show great potential--but rather how much effort and training and time you have to put in, not just to improve, but to even write a novel whether or not you are already highly skilled.
So the point is that teachers usually end up teaching those who kind of innately grasp things, or who are so determined they eventually get it one way or the other. It'll be a pleasure to see you bece highly skilled after all of your hilariously overblown dithering, and I mean that in the most fond way.
That's a pretty interesting point. Most teachers probably experience a lot of self selection bias where the students that will learn best from them stick around and ones that won't go away on their own so therefore, it's never necessary to expand that skillset beyond the types of people they're already teaching. I feel like a big thing for me was just the fact that so many videos promise a lot like "Find your style in 10 minutes!" or "Learn to draw heads QUICKLY and EASILY" and as someone who didn't know any better, I felt like they would really help me and when it didn't, I felt like I was deficient or broken or just failing in some way. Now I realize that those videos either weren't for me, or my level, or this person just wasn't a teacher, they're an entertainer. And I feel a lot better knowing that it's not me, if I'm level 5, I shouldn't have been allowed in the level 10 dungeon anyway. I feel like the ambiguity of what "fundamentals" and "beginner" even mean add to this confusion and it's just a whole mess. Also, I was arrogant and thought I knew better than what people were telling me...as you do with any subject you don't know much about lol. Anyway, that was a lot of rambling, thanks for sharing your thoughts and I'm excited as well lmao. I hope to see myself on much more solid footing a year from now :)
Ahh Kevin makes so much sense. It is true that perspective can be explained in a page... It's just about being able to see it and really understand it and getting the experience Vs knowing the "maths" behind it. Definitely going to keep that in mind. When he talked about being able to "see more" I kind of had an epiphany too. Ever since doing drawabox I definitely see form better than before. I never noticed until now!,
That's really awesome! I feel like over time, my response to people saying "you need to get more experience/practice" has gone from being frustrated and impatient to excitement. Having seen firsthand the changes to my observation and skill that come with practice, it actually feels good that I don't really need to know too much "book knowledge", that I can learn most of what I need by taking that seed and growing it by drawing whatever kind of stuff I like! Good luck to you, Liz!
While you can explain perspective in about 10 pages, it's the nuances that make things complex. For instance, even one-point perspective is more complex than you think. For instance, one-point perspective for non-parallel boxes require multiple vanishing points. Elevated roads and downhill roads will require multiple vanishing points. A meandering road or a river will require multiple vanishing points. These are one-point perspective examples--not two point perspective. Linear perspective isn't exactly how the eye sees things. The eye like any optical instrument has distortions due to the biological design as well as defects like astigmatism and color blindness. In fact, you could argue that a fish-eye perspective is more accurate than a geometric linear perspective from a biological perspective. Our brains takes these defects and makes sense of it for us to perceive the world. This is why optical illusions show us that our perception is not accurate.
Different teachers will also deliver the same ideas differently; students as well are so varied in how they learn, sometimes one approach cannot match another even if the topic taught is the same. I feel the argument about wether to learn Realism first really ties into the philosophy of Art, Art making and blooms into something quite subjective. Really enjoy your channel and seeing your journey as you work to find what works for you!
I like seeing your progress I also noticed people who are really good for so long, usual don't have solid answer on how they got there sadly.
some people get really good in early childhood and teenage since theres so much time and they are doing art with no responsibility. there was a girl on youtube who can do realistic paintings and she has been practicing in a studio with ppl her family knows. so she isnt like most of us. her family had the money and she has early practice. alot of us on youtube are doing stuff during adulthood.
@@CODBlackOps6WALKTHROUGH I had theory that's how most "prodigies" come from, just having ahead start and more resources.
I think that's probably true! I think it's a good opportunity for us to look at how we can provide better opportunities and support (education, emotional) for future kids of all backgrounds to blossom, not just the rich ones with supportive parents.
Hey Mithrilda!
I was thinking of comics while I was watching the vid, and then Kevin recommended the Marvel book! The reason I was thinking of comics is that I'm starting to think that comics artists are really the only ones who can draw everything, where questions like 'but what about perspective' no longer come up. Most other artists specialize in an area, like portraits or vehicles or botany. Comic book artists literally need to draw everything you can see in real life, and then also invent from imagination (like monsters and stuff), basically they're like movie directors, plus they also sometimes write the story, which again is similar to movie directors who write their own scripts, so-called auteurs, like Tarantino or Linklater. I don't know of any other area in drawing/painting where you need to be an author to boot! So I think comic book artists trump everyone else. If you have them draw a portrait from life, maybe they won't be able to draw it as well as someone who dedicated their career to it, but they'll get 80% or 90% there, which is good enough. Many people frown on comics, but I don't think they're really aware of what high level comic book art is like. And it's been like that for ages, take someone like Sergio Toppi for instance ( www.comicartfans.com/comic-artists/sergio_toppi.asp ). His work could hang (and probably is hanging) in galleries. He's a master at every area of drawing I can think of.
The Evolve course, from what I can see, is like a first year 'academic drawing' (atelier) course, although in Evolve's case it's painting rather than drawing. It's like Cesar Santos says, 'if you cannot draw that which exists, how can you draw that which you imagine?' ( th-cam.com/video/t4vvV6iZPAM/w-d-xo.html ) So you begin with learning to see. But I wouldn't say that learning to see takes care of the rest. Cesar Santos is an absolute master at drawing what he sees, but if you look at his work, his series called syncretism for instance, it looks like someone just put different elements together in photoshop, it doesn't look like he can manipulate reality at all. So I'd say perspective and the rest doesn't just simply come with knowing how to draw what you see. Proko has said that he struggles with drawing from imagination, and basically everything I've read and heard says that if you learn how to draw what you see, that's all you learn, nothing comes as a freebie. If perspective came with figure drawing, there would be no need for lessons on how to place the figure in perspective, like in this NMA class ( www.nma.art/videolessons/perspective-17-drawing-the-figure-in-perspective/ )
So I guess one has to learn all this stuff piecemeal (since there's no all-encompassing 'how to draw comics' course!) But the problem with learning piecemeal traditionally, is all the supplies. Every single course stressing that you need to get x material and nothing else. Only this paper will do. Only this pencil will do. You need this specific size of drawing board. You need this specific ink. And so you join something like NMA for what you think will be cheap, and every single course you need to spend hundreds on supplies, and depending on the country you live in you might need to spend twice that for delivery, and also maybe need to stop your learning for a month or so till the order arrives. It's ridiculous. If I were to give my advice now (though it's liable to change from week to week!) I'd say, screw all those people who say 'you need to learn how to draw traditionally first'! Just go straight to digital, buy a cheap tablet but of a decent size, not even necessarily a display tablet. But you can also get an Xp-pen 22 inch display tablet for ~$400, it's still less than you'll end up paying for traditional. And then take advantage of all the courses that exist out there, preferably starting with digital courses, then once you master digital try drawing traditional using digital (can you really tell that these were drawn using digital? courses.svslearn.com/courses/drawing-with-digital-pencils ), and then if you finally can draw something good and want to draw it using traditional media, take a couple courses like that offered at vitruvian studio where you learn how to draw and paint anything you see ( vitruvianstudio.com/ ). An example of a digital course that will start you from scratch is Hardy Fowler on udemy ( www.udemy.com/user/hardyfowler/ specifically 'photoshop fundamentals' and 'art fundamentals' and 'line art master'). Another example is 365 days of creativity ( yesimadesigner.com/365-days-of-creativity-promo/ ) But it doesn't really matter which, since, unlike traditional media where you bought all those supplies, you won't waste anything by deciding to drop the course you don't like and find a new one, till you find your match. Most of these courses are pirated these days anyway (yes, including every single one I mention in this post, traditional ones included), so you won't even need to buy them.
Yes, lots of people will say you simply NEED to start traditionally, ctrl-paint will say it, drawbox will say it - meanwhile teaching you traditional art using digital media! You'll need to learn digital eventually anyway in this day and age, especially if you're interested in doing this for a living. And the same people who say to start with traditional will admit that it's not the tool that matters. No one thinks DaVinci would have any trouble learning how to draw if all he was given was a digital tablet. Craig Mullins, who is idolized by most digital artists, used to draw with a mouse and a simple round digital brush when he started with digital, and all his paintings looked like Renaissance masterpieces.
So my (current!) advice to people wanting to learn how to draw, would be to buy a simple cheap tablet, but not the smallest one, more like xp-pen's deco 1, so you have room to do shoulder-drawing, but maybe opt for a more expensive display tablet as mentioned above, which you can also use as a computer monitor so maybe buy that instead of a computer screen, and then do all the courses for free that you can get your hands on, you'll be learning along the way from your mistakes, and you'll get a clearer picture of what you need to learn as you do that. Yes, the one thing that's missing from that is critiques. But maybe you can get that from joining paintable ( paintable.cc/category/tutorials/ ) where you'll get critiqued regularly and you get a community too, or from drawing tutorials online ( drawing-tutorials-online.com ). There are professional illustrators (i.e. people who know all areas of art) that will critique anything you show them (not just specific coursework) for cheap.
Most of this is not directed specifically at you, Mithrilda, it's mostly an opportunity for me to vent my thoughts as I had them while watching the vid. But also hopefully food for thought for you or anyone who might be reading this, bearing in mind that, as you said, I haven't followed this path myself or done most of the courses I mentioned above!
Ah, this is all very interesting. I've thought similar things about mangakas, about how crazy it is that they have the skill to draw all these different things PLUS tell a story? That's crazy stuff. With regard to digital, you seem to be coming at it from the perspective that it's the more economical choice which is true, but I do feel like people recommend learning traditionally for a reason. It's been so much easier creating art through the oil paints than it ever was using my digital tablets and I'm curious how the skills will transfer back when I get back to doing digital artworks.
Also, I had no idea about the plethora of supply lists hidden within NMA courses. I guess I thought I'd be able to do everything using a paper and pencil, haha.
With regard to nothing being a "freebie", I don't think that's necessarily what Kevin means. I think the point is that without the observation, you can't even start to take in the rest of the skills, like trying to learn literature without reading first. Of course learning to read won't get you skilled in literature, but it's required to even get started and it would be quite the challenge to start jumping into literature without mastering the reading.
If you haven't done any of these courses or followed this path, what was your path? Where does this authority and conviction come from? Thanks for saying it for transparency, I truly appreciate the honesty and I'm curious!
@@Mithrilda Oh there's no authority or conviction in my words strictly speaking. Maybe the way I express myself makes it seem so! I come from a skeptical philosophy and science background and I'm used to opining only about things that are quite certain, so maybe I've become incapable of expressing myself any other way hehe!
I'm simply an amateur who started digitally, then courses like ctrl-paint and, well, seemingly everyone, made me go traditional, did a bit of a lot as a result, like drawbox, Watts, Proko, Brunet's Art School, Robertson's book, Bert Dodson's book, and on and on, never finishing most of them - i.e. I've gone through what most people on the self-taught path seem to be going through! - and I watched quite a lot of interviews of successful artists by Proko, Bobby Chiu, etc., so I've garnered a lot of theory knowledge that way, which often enables me to smell the bull. For instance I was watching yesterday an interview by moderndayjames who can best be described as following the Robertson structuralism path, and he specifically said his goal is to learn to draw like Kim Jung Gi (even though he admits that's realistically unattainable, but at least he can maybe go some ways toward that), whom he presents as a master of rotating cubes and other simple shapes in his head. Well okay, Kim does do that, and does teach a perspective course based on cubes. But what about the fact that Kim draws literally everywhere he goes, from observation? Moderndayjames himself says that his own drawings are stiff as a result of all that 'cubism' and he's trying to incorporate gesture into his daily practice to loosen them up. What I'm trying to say is that things aren't that easy. It's not just 'do Robertson's book and you'll learn to draw everything from imagination'. Nor does anatomy knowledge help with drawing what you see, so I agree with Kevin on that one. If you watch Jeff Watts' drawings and compare them with the references, the things he draws are nowhere to be seen. He invents them. His drawings are better than the reality! He doesn't just draw what he sees like they do in other ateliers. He uses his anatomical and structural knowledge to improve upon what he sees, and that's where the creativity of the artist comes in. Look at this drawing of his for instance instagram.com/p/CE0Q4tSpOu6/ and then look at his reference instagram.com/p/CC6glpxJyxI/ . The reference is boring! There's none of those rippling shadows in the reference, it's much smoother and faker, and doesn't look like the real deal, whereas the drawing does look like the guy takes skulls off people's shoulders as a hobby. So yeah Kevin's right, people who know anatomy real well put things where there's none to be seen - but that's the goal! Anatomy is not only meant to help you draw reality! Anatomy is meant to help you improve on it in a way that won't look fake, cos you know how far you can push things before they look fake, you know where the chin is exactly and how it's structured and therefore how to alter it believably. You'll literally hear Jeff saying things in his vids like 'I don't like that chin' (meaning the model's) and then change it. (As an example of how insightful and incisive he is, here's a vid of Watts doing critiques for Proko's students: th-cam.com/video/nkYqLY5AeM8/w-d-xo.html )
So what I'm trying to say with those two examples is that theoretical knowledge will sometimes help you challenge what you hear, understand where some approaches will lead, and maybe save some time. But I don't pretend to have found the path. Drawing is really easy (I mean, not more difficult than most other occupations) if you only want to do one thing, like draw figures, or birds, or machines. (A friend's wife specializes in drawing traditional Orthodox religious iconography and she has stated that it's relatively easy, seeing as there's specific rules you follow. Orthodox paintings, mind you, are kinda 2D, nothing like the Catholic ones done by geniuses!) But if you want to 'draw everything', which to me now translates as 'I wanna draw comics!' or 'I wanna be an illustrator like Rockwell', well that's quite difficult and I don't think there's a clear path out there yet for self-taught or home students that will take you there step by step. And with this uncertainty comes lack of confidence and course-hopping. If one wants to become like Cesar Santos, that's relatively easy in the sense that there's a clear path for that, and all it requires is infinite amounts of patience! But, in a sense, there's no talent required (some say it's a myth :P ), every single person who goes down that path will learn to draw that way, maybe not exactly as well as Santos, but pretty close (if you wanna see him speed-paint, or just how cool his drawing looks against a totally white background and frame! th-cam.com/video/av_QsD2QADc/w-d-xo.html ) . So Santos' procedure is in a sense demystified - all students of those 'academic' courses end up with more or less the same results and skills - but if you want to draw like Kim Jung Gi (or any other good comic book artist) I don't think there's any clear answers out there on how to do that, or at least I haven't found any. Hence frustration!
@@Mithrilda A rather simple way to present the problem facing beginner artists is I think the following. Let's say I have an idea. I want to draw a fisherman catching what he thinks is a fish, but he actually caught an alligator's nostril which can be seen under the surface. And I want it to be funny. And I know the kind of style I'm going for, it's not just a simple New Yorker cartoon, it's quite more realistic than that.
What I've just described is a Jose Rodriguez picture, the second one here 3dtotal.com/news/interviews/jos-rodrguez-3d-character-artist-interview-by-3dtotal-staff-rodrguez#article-3dtotal-tell-us-a-little-bit-about-your . So if I have that idea, what exactly do I need to learn? Do I learn how to draw actual realistic alligators first? Do I learn that via obsessive observation drawing? Do I need to know how to draw them from imagination? Do I need to learn to draw figures? Animals? All animals? Animal and human anatomy which I then exaggerate? Do I need to learn how to draw boats? All types of boats? Do I need to learn composition? Color theory? Character facial expressions for comics? Rodriguez himself is a 3D artist - maybe it's better to learn Blender? What if one of those courses is taught in charcoal, another in graphite, a third in digital, a fourth in ink, a fifth in paint...how do I translate all those mediums into all others? Ah, I know, I need to learn the fundamentals first! Well this course says the fundamentals are lines and values and doesn't mention perspective, and this other course says the fundamentals are cubes and spheres and the ability to rotate them in your imagination and that perspective is key. Eh, will it take me 10 years of learning to draw that one picture? Suddenly there's no fun in that!
I think that's the problem most people have, they have ideas, and those ideas are numerous and varied, today it's a funny fisherman in a boat about to be eaten by an alligator, tomorrow it's a dystopian realistic illustration of a humanoid ape on an Earth conquered by apes. If one JUST wants to draw Disney-type characters out of context, clear path ahead. Only animal drawing, clear path ahead. But having all sorts of ideas and wanting to be able to draw any one of them? It seems you're as out of luck as that fisherman.
And probably many of the people who watch channels like yours are seeking to find the answers to those very questions! So get on that! We're counting on you :P
Wow! No wonder you go no where and get frustrated because you talk too much. Let the hands to the talking not the mouth. If you are wondering which is better traditional or digital. Do the traditional first its way cheaper. I.E pen and paper only not the fancy stuff. Digital is not a dedicated object as sparth said. It will overwhelm you. If you are on a computer connected with internet goodluck with ur time. No wonder you have so many links with different brands they are all corporation selling you something i.e schoolism. Just Draw pen and paper simple no electricity to watch YT. To trolling no one is selling something. It should be 90% drawing 10% watching videos per day. If you are just watching those links like watts, proko etc goodluck. And if you are planning to work as a concept artist like riot games or ubisoft? Proko and watts will not help you infact it will delay you because they are to perfectionist of the human form. Concept artist mostly work from imagination. Working in disney is a another story. Fundamentals is all about the basics. The more expensive the school is like art center the simpler the exercise is you may even thinking that why am i paying this i can even do this at home. That is fundamentals very basic. On the other hand the cheaper the school is like schoolism the less fundamentals they put there. They only survive by hiring the best artist out there then advertise to those noob kids this is all you need for an education. I studied FZD by the way. Goodluck.
Are you talking to me? How did you like FZD? Are you working in industry now?
It is exciting watching your progress.
Thank you! Glad to have ya!
Fantastic video, Mith! I can't wait to see how the rest of your progress develops.
It’s really cool what your doing here on this channel. Keep up the great informational videos. I feel like I’m back in college. Except I’m learning art this time lol
I'm glad to hear! I'm very excited to keep learning and I hope to do so my entire life :D
I heard a podcast where this one guy recommended thinking about your mortality to get your butt in gear! We’re only in this world for a short time, so make the most of it.
And love seeing another talk with Kevin, keep these up 😃
Ha, maybe that's why I'm so motivated. I've been thinking about mortality all day at my job working in insurance. Really makes you appreciate the time you have :)
@@Mithrilda Haha, now that's what I call perspective :P
Hehe, I recommended the Marvel drawing book to someone recently. That was my go to book when I went to the library as a kid 😊
That's awesome! I've heard so much about it, but there's so many books in the art learning mythology that different people swear by haha
Try Watts Atelier for anatomy & figure and portrait painting.
I've heard a lot about it! What's your experience been with them?
@@Mithrilda I did it for a few months. Jeff Watts is a great teacher, but I personally felt that the lesson videos moved a little too fast. I think their method is probably best learned either in person or with a mentor. I ended up going to New Master's Academy, which I got a little more out of, but I still felt a lack of structure. New Master's does offer mentorship, but it was really expensive.
Hello, thank you for your insides and videos, they are really interesting. i have a question, is there any training in portrait during the first 4 blocks? or even in the whole program? thank you very much again.
Glad to hear! I don't think there's any education specifically about portraits, but in the advanced blocks, I know there's at least one homework exercise that involves drawing a portrait. Overall, Kevin's philosophy is that everything is the same, just made of light and shadow so if you can paint an apple, you can paint a person.
Hey there! I’ve been in block four, you have multiple reference options for the eight paintings in that block. Two of them are portraits, and one of them is a bust of Ben Franklin, so you’ll have some good portrait practice in block four if you choose to.
Isn't drawabox basically a perspective cours? Start by drawing a box in perspective then advance to more and more complicated forms. Obviously it's not 100% pure but drawing basic forms in perspective seems like a clear focus. The main exception being the texture work in lesson 2.
It is, I just don't think it's suited to my style of learning
I know that suggesting art books is tired but I do really believe in the Morpho books.
I've looked at them and they look really cool! I'll definitely have to get my hands on them in the future
@@Mithrilda fwiw I’m a beginner/still learning loads artist too and they have helped me more than other books before. Might be the way he presents information because it’s not fundamentally different than what other books try to teach.
Anyway I hope you find something that works for you.
Are you still tackling japanese?
Just passively, not actively AKA I watch anime with subs haha. Not too much time to do much more atm unfortunately
@@Mithrilda haha yeah that makes sense, i remembered watching ur video a year ago and since i want to start learning Japanese soon it came up again! Its great to see youre still doing videos and whatnot :)
try art-wod
What's your experience been with them?
@@Mithrilda i did their gumroad and learned a lot about the figure and face. You should try their art-wod .com program he breaks it up into different weeks : hard surface> organic> figure. He aloso breaks up the week starting with the simple perspective forms then adds complexity thought out the week.