Mystery boxes: Don’t forget that there’s something on Donna’s back... Also, when this was broadcast, the disappearance of the bees was an actual thing in the news in the UK. Bee numbers were down due to pesticides and other environmental issues, and this was pretty important. So when it came up in Dr Who, it was a bit fourth-wall-breaking, fixing Donna in the NOW of the show when broadcast. Which is interesting (especially in hindsight).
Bees are still dying, I think. Colony collapse disorder. But it's important to note that certain bees are invasive species. Maybe _those_ are the space bees.
I adore this episode. I'm a Latin teacher and, fun fact, the names of the family members - Caecilius, Metella, and Quintus - are the names of the characters in one of the most-used Latin textbooks in the US and UK. They aren't exactly the same characters, but they have enough of the characters' personalities that I recognized them, and my students would recognize them, right away. When my school district used the book with Caecilius in it, I would show this episode in class, after we finished Unit 1, as an alternate ending to the Pompeii arc of the story. Re: the thing about the gods and worship. In general, I think you're right. But in Pompeii in this story, the gods aren't just an intangible idea - the people believe that the gods are speaking through the Sibylline Sisterhood, the Soothsayer, and anyone else who speaks prophecy. They inhale the smoke from the hypocausts, which comes from Vesuvius. The god Vulcan is, to their thinking, the one bestowing these visions and prosperity on the town. So I can believe that one of the household slaves would take a moment and stare in awe, and talk about the manifestation of Vulcan in the house - Evalina is about to join the Sibylline Sisters, after all. Why wouldn't an avatar of the gods visit the house? And when Metella mentions the creature after it's been destroyed, she speaks with fear - because the gods were to be feared. I love the bit at the beginning, and then at the end, with Quintus dealing with the household gods, the Lares, at the family shrine. He's so rote and bored in the first instance, but by the end, with who the family now considers its household gods, he's so much more reverent. The pun names for some of the Romans are great, too. Lucius Petrus Dextrus - Lucius with the stone right side/right arm. I didn't catch it the first time I watched, but once we saw his arm, the name made perfect sense. It makes me chuckle every time, along with the bad "I am Spartacus" bit. The Doctor and Donna are amazing together in this story, and Donna's bonding with Evalina is a nice quiet moment for her in the middle of a very hectic, emotionally fraught story. It is one of my favorite modern Who stories.
I'm not from the UK, so I never got the schoolbook reference...that is so cool! Nice callback to the original conception of Doctor Who as an educational show for kids. I did get some of the Roman name puns, though, those were fun.
I think even Russel got bored of the mystery boxes, so for this series he put 4 in just to shake things up (or give the illusion of shaking things up). 1)The bees disappearing. 2) Lost planets. 3) The Doctor Donna. 4) Rose coming back. 5) Oh, and arguably there is something on your back.
youre missing the big one, the over arching story in series 4 IS Donna, she says shes not important, but over and over shes put in places where she needs to step up and BE the one needed, until we know what happened
I agree with you as a whole but I have one point to pick up on, regarding the whole character walks straight to the Pyrovore moment. It seems that you are applying the actions of one person to the actions of the masses. You are right, that on seeing a Pyrovore that most people would turn and run but Phil Davies's character (it was him, right?) wasn't most people. He been 'spoken' to by the Pyrovores to create that circuit thing, for quite some time, and was also quite an egotistical, full of himself, power hungry chap. For his character it makes sense for him to go towards it. He has done their bidding and now they have shown themselves in time for his reward. That's how I see it from his point of view.
lwaves I don’t think he’s talking about Phil Davies’ character. He’s talking about that random guy in the family’s house who gets killed instantly when the Pyrovile appears for the first time. He only has like one line which is something like, ‘Blessed we see the Gods...’ or something like that.
@@TheConfessionDial I don't remember that character but then it's been a while since I saw that episode. If it's not Davis's character then it makes a difference. Maybe Nathaniel will see this and clarify who it is he's talking about? It appears I've called them Pyrovores instead of Pyroviles too. Oopsie. :-)
Always hated that volcano line at the end. Either they should've left it out and never address who came up with the word, or seeing as Donna said it to him earlier in the episode a few times, he could've just remembered her calling it that and they just play it out as a paradox where the word is conjured up from nowhere.
This one hurts my heart in a great way. When she begs him to just save one. It's like the reflection of the dr dances. Some days you can say everybody and some days you can only save one. but both are just as important.
Caecilius: It could be a really obscure reference to the UK education system. If, like me, you where at a school that taught Latin in the seventies, the text book you worked from had the ongoing story of everyday Roman Caecilious and his exploits.
Donna is the best. She is on his case the whole time but that moment where she places her hands on top of his. Both helping him share the burden and sacrificing herself. Then afterwards making the Doctor save someone. She totally won me over in this episode.
This is one of my favorite episodes of Doctor Who and I love when Capaldi recalls it later on in the Girl Who Died (I think? The one with Maisie Williams-and that sounds like a Friends episode title) It breaks your heart but it is so good and like you I just LOVE that Donna doesn't let the Doctor pull his "I'm the Doctor, I know what I'm doing" routine on her. I love when she says "Donna, human, no!" then tells him "I don't know what kids you've been traveling with, but you don't tell me to shush!" Or whatever the exact line was. As for religion, well I'm with you that the one servant's reaction to walk towards the fire monster was absurd. But speaking as someone who does have faith but is of a denomination that values reason (Episcopalian), I don't really get offended at this sort of thing. I always take it as a critique of people who accept what they're told about their religion without thinking about it and believing that if you question it means your faith isn't strong enough. Anyway, great episode, great review!
Such a great episode 😁 10 and Donna are great as always 😁 ‘you shot her with a water pistol, I bloody love you’ 😂 ‘doctor, timelord, yeah’ ‘Donna, human, no’ 😂
Part of roman mythology is that the gods did actually walk among humans from time to time so it’s not as bad as your making it out even if it’s still a bit dim
People were likely more inclined to believe supernatural explainations. Science explained less of the world then. A lava monster would likely more be a monster, but if there would a winged person suddenly appear, what would people think first. Even capaldi probably thought tennant was a god in human disguise. They had shapeshifting gods having shinanigans in the human world.
Didn’t one of the characters in Fires mention something being on Donna’s back? Pretty sure if that’s the case that’s another mystery box, as it’s mentioned a few times in the series.
I loved this episode; it really proved Donna's mettle as a companion. That one moment, where she realized the terrible choice the Doctor must make, he hesitated... and she didn't just cheer him on, she physically helped him do what he must, defined her as a companion. She then proceeded to beg him to save someone. Tried to work within his constraints, to create a small victory when defeat was inevitable. (That message got a bit garbled with Twelve's Doctor, when he interpreted it to mean, complete victory at all costs, everyone must be saved. Not what Donna said at all!)
The last time I rewatched this episode Donna pushing the lever with the Doctor actually reminded me of the 50th anniversary with 10 and 11 going to push the button with the War Doctor (before finding another way). It was a very similar situation and I like to think that Donna at least partially inspired that decision.
So glad we're finally in Donna's episodes. A few stray thoughts: Interestingly, the bees were the Mystery Box I noticed - it was Rose I missed. It's fun seeing people who come back later. Both Peter and Karen were following in long-established tradition. Donna really did a lot to keep The Doctor grounded. I think we would've gotten the Time Lord Victorious a lot sooner if it hadn't been for her. Speaking of Donna, it takes a special kind of compassion to be willing to share in the guilt of causing a necessary tragedy like she did. I kind of love that The Doctor and Donna became the family's house gods after they were rescued. Much better example of what could be interpreted as "the gods walk among us" than the Pyrovile was. I can't speak for anyone else, but I rather enjoy it when you go off on tangents. It adds flavour and colour to what's being discussed and provides perspectives I may not have thought of. Please don't stop taking side trips.
The part where Donna tries to take the young child but the mother comes and carries him away always makes me cry. In general, Donna's desperation and pleading with the Doctor makes me cry. Actually, the bit where she pushes the button with the Doctor is where I start to cry and then it's downhill from that point lol. For years I always thought this episode was a two-parter hahaa no idea why but I thought that for a LOT of Donna's episodes
Love this episode. I like how the Doctor is forced to let history take its course, and is forced to kill thousands, allowing the blood on his hands. This episode shows that Catherine Tate (and by extension, Donna's character) in terms of performance has more than just playing the bossy gobby character that Catherine usually plays. The monsters are gorgeously designed, albeit are a bit cliched in terms of character. Besides that, this got the ball rolling for Series 4.
I feel like even if time travel were possible, preventing the really big stuff from happening wouldn't be. The Civil War was gonna happen regardless of the actions of any individual. So I like an episode that says "You can't save everyone, but you can save someone."
The whole episode I couldn't help but remember my Latin textbook which was based on the family Caecilius, Metella and Quintus, a realy family that died in Pompeii
Don't forget mystery boxes also included the Medusa Cascade and "there's something on your back". Technically you could also include the Shadow Proclamation too technically
Also another small mystery box is “there’s something on your back” which pops up in this episode, and the coincidences with the Doctor Donna ( her car, wilf ect.) that dalek kahn made
This anti-religious stuff started sticking in my craw about 7 years ago. I'm an atheist, and for a good 20 years before that time I was one of "those" Atheists (the kind who give Atheism a justifiably bad name), so when I first saw this episode I LOVED how it showed how idiotic and irrational Religious folk were. It's a huge reason of why it was on my top Doctor Who episodes up to that point. But starting 7 years ago (right after my first child was born, which I don't think is a coincidence) my attitudes towards Religion and the Religious started to change. I didn't gain a religion in any sense, but I did start to respect the idea that there may be something out there that I can't understand or comprehend, and I started to see Religion and Religious folk in a much more charitable light. In a lot of ways for me, seeing this kind of anti-Religious stuff is like smelling cigarette smoke on a jacket; as with a significant number of ex-smokers, I have a much higher aversion to the smell of cigarette smoke, and a much more visceral reaction to it than smokers or people who have never smoked. (I swear I can smell it on my boss's jacket the moment he gets off the elevator at work, like 20 yards away from my desk.) So when I see it portrayed in media, or on Social Media, it hits me harder than it hits other people.
but isn't it obvious that religions are lies and there's no evidence for any gods? do you think there's afterlife for all animals or are we somehow special? is there a seperate heaven for turtles? all those religious ideas sound ridiculous, science proves there's no need for gods in the universe
To be clear, I am mostly agnostic and atheist. I don't really believe in supernatural entities, but I do enjoy the festivals associated with religions. That said, here's my opinion: No one should care if someone else believes in afterlife or in gods. God isn't really falsifiable, so refusing to believe in gods is just as illogical as believing in gods. Science doesn't disprove that gods exist, and it doesn't prove that gods exist. People just normally pick one and stick with it. For religious people, religion can be a source of strength or morality for people. Atheism can inspire people to be more rational or practical. It's only when people start forcing their views on other people that problems arise. The wisest course of action is to let people believe what they want, unless their belief starts causing significant problems. This episode didn't bother me very much though. That dig on religion was such a small part of the episode that I could just ignore it. There are so many good things about this episode that the bad parts just fade away from memory.
@SkoczMinaPukiel: Yours is the kind of post I used to make all the time. (just with better grammar, because I loved to lord my "intellectual superiority" over people on forums and other message boards by using superior grammar) It doesn't actually rebut anything in the post it is replying to, but it plays very well to like-minded individuals (particularly the anti-theist sect of Atheism). And they don't even make sense when you start to break it down - it sounds nice, but misuses words to elicit emotional and visceral reactions in the hopes that people will ignore the obvious problems with the post itself. Is it obvious that religions are "*lies*"? No, no it is not. A lie is a deliberately told untruth, and that is not something inherent in religion. It is not a lie to say there is an Afterlife because there is no way to prove nor disprove the existence of an afterlife. Saying "God watches you Masturbate" is likewise something impossible to prove or disprove, or "Don't eat Shellfish" or "Be Modest in your Appearance" or "Find Balance in all things" or whatever else Religions say lead to a happy afterlife. They aren't lies because there is no provable truth that they are contradicting. My disbelief in an afterlife does not mean that people who claim there is an afterlife are lying or are liars or in some way are manipulating or misrepresenting something for personal gain. It simply means that I don't believe in the same things that those people believe in, and until I'm dead, I won't have any way to know which of us was right. And if I'm right, after I die it won't matter anyway because I don't believe there is an afterlife to go to in any way, shape or form. It will only be an issue if I happen to be wrong about that, that there is an afterlife and I screwed up my living life so that I don't get a good afterlife.
I love this episode a lot. I love Donna calling out the Doctor all the time and her being done with his BS. My fave lines from this episode are "TARDIS, Time Lord , Yeah" "Donna, Human, No" and that also i love Donn'a line when she says "You fought her off with a water pistol? I bloody love you." A very Donna line. I feel like i never have bad things to say about the episodes from this series cus i love this series a lot. there are no episodes i skip, each one is brilliant in its own way. The dynamic between David Tennant and Catherine Tate is great. I just love this series. i genuinely cannot think of anything bad or even slightly critical to say about this episode or the other episodes
I think it's really funny how the minute they set a story in Pompeii, the writers decided to have fun with the Cambridge Latin Course books. For those who don't know, when learning Latin in school (typically private school, so not that much of the population), most will learn from a series of textbooks called the Cambridge Latin Course. The first of these books is set in Pompeii and follows Caecillius and his family (although the writers made up Evalina).
Oh. And they had fun with people's names. Like the male soothsayer's name is Lucius Petrus Dextrus, which literally translates from Latin as Lucius stone right hand.
I was like "AW YEAH, TENNANT TUX!" and then you raised your hand and the pride ring on the collar slayed me. Great video!! My boyfriend and I watch you like gospel, hahaha!
The quote is from Talmud, and it itself is not a quote, but a deduction, and a religious principle. As a matter of fact, I believe it's in the volume called Sanhedrin, which deals with courts.
I dont know I dont see people walking towards the monster but maybe falling to their knees and praying or begging for their life like that guy in the mummy
Dude, Roman Mythology was full of so many terrifying monsters and even the gods were dangerous to approach unsolicited, there's no way a devout Roman man of faith would just walk up to a lava creature willy-nilly.
This episode starts like a typical Who episode not filler and not a big story. Just a nice to move the series along. Then the episode turns on its head in a big way. Everything in the last quarter is brilliant.Not forgetting if the Doctor did leave it would have changed a fixed point in time. So either way he was creating a fixed point. Tate and Tennant were so powerful, raw and outstanding. Series 4 is where I feel RTD finally had all the pieces come together. Might be his best series of Who. Oh don't forget the best line in the episode "You shot her with a water pistol. I bloody love you"
I honestly dissolved into tears of laughter at your rant about blind faith and the living fire monster, too funny. The 'Fires of Pompeii' is a brilliant episode - well acted, beautiful balance of humour and pathos, mystery and the chemistry between the Doctor and Donna is established well so early on. Capaldi is great as Caecilius, and it's lovely in retrospect to see an ardent fan being part of the show, who would go on to play the Doctor himself!
Tennant's face, when Donna was pleading, was really powerful the first time I watched it, and solidified my love for Tennant as one of the best Doctors. At the time, he was the best, but Capaldi has done exceedingly well in trying to dethrone him. They're now tied.
I appreciate your thoughts on the religious portrayal. I grew up in a religious family, but my parents always taught us to, yes, have faith but you gotta do your part and still go to the doctor, protect yourself, and study hard.
I had hoped you talk more about the invention of the word 'volcano', since you referred to that line early on. I don't know much about the history of Latin, but I just can't believe that the Romans didn't have a word for volcano until the eruption in 79. They knew about Aetna and Stromboli, right? Aetna erupts all the time!
Oh shit I only just found out that the Roman family is literally lifted straight from Book 1 of the Cambridge Latin Course which in turn was based on an actual family that died in Pompeii oh that gives me feels.
Did anyone else notice how the doctor says that he’s only made the decision to trade lives once when Kate Stewart asks him in the black archive when he actually made it in this episode and in Parting Of The Ways as well as the time war?
Fun Fact: Scientists have since determined that the eruption at Pompeii would have produced such a powerful Shockwave that anyone in Pompeii would have been killed instantly by it. So Cacellius and his family have been dead before Donna and The Doctor landed in their rock-ship thing.
Was the mystery box really that obvious in 2008? I thought the rose thing was obvious, if not a bit obnoxious, but everything else seemed just quirky. If I'm honest, I've never been a massive fan of this episode, but the reflection from series 9 does improve it for me.
"Why did I choose this face?" Because originally Capaldi was supposed to be the Doctor after Tennent, but things changed and Smith was next then Capaldi got the part (which worked out for the better in my opinion).
I always remember season 4 as the darkest, most mature. I think that holds up, looking at the upcoming episodes. I like when it gets dark and gives honest commentary, rather than monster of the week obvious allegory.
This is my personal favorite episode. Yeah, the villains aren't great and the characters aren't all written well but for me it's about showing 10 and Donna's amazing relationship as Doctor and companion. The "just save one" scene to me is the perfect Doctor-Companion moment and is one of my all time favorite scenes.
I will always accept this headcanon (courtesy of the fandom) that the Roman dude played by Capaldi was actually the 12th Doctor all along, and he was just trolling his past self 😂
@@CouncilofGeeks Haha yeah 😂 Definitely not plausible enough! And yeah we already had the explanation that 12 just chose the face BECAUSE of him saving that man. BUT Doctor Who opens itself so much to time paradoxes etc etc so ANYTHING is possible in this show 😂😁😂
THANK YOU for addressing the issue with the portrayal of religion in media, specifically with Christianity. It's really frustrating to see my religion often portrayed as villainous or wrong or silly. So thanks for addressing it.
Somebody has read the Astérix books! The family is more than loosely based upon the family from one of the books. The use of the names is a nice touch, too.
I never realized before that Capaldi's character basically had the same name as minor villain from "Doctor Strange" who became the major villain of the movie. marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Kaecilius_(Earth-616)
This was originally a Big Finish 7th Doctor story called "The Fires of Vulcan". It was their first story with Bonnie Langford. Believe it or not, it's actually worth listening to.
as a "religous" person (i believe in god but not super churchy) and loves science i respect your views on how peoples beliefs are dealt with badly sometimes. but it's a problem with davies and moffet in general even outside of doctor who, one thing that i like about chibnal is that he seems better in that area, with his speech at the end of his first series (yeah it's still a story about faith being manipulated but it isn't completely insulting people with religous beliefs). also really you didn't notice the thing about the bees? i noticed all three mystery boxes when the series aired (to be fair though i was looking for them at this point) but i would say that this series shows how they can be done well by not pointing them out and just having it in the background and not even being noticable in stories and in some episodes not even being brought up. also if you add the there's something on your back line and the doctor donna, there are five mystery boxes.
I can't say much definitively about how seriously ancient Romans took their faith but I did take a university course on Greek mythology and one of the points brought up there was that you're basically right... the average folk were fine with the idea of terrifying terrible gods existing so long as those gods left them alone to go about their day to day lives. Even if they *did* think they saw Zeus come down from the sky, they'd be running the other way. It didn't go so much into the Roman attitudes but I don't see any reason why they would have been much different in that regard. So I definitely agree with you on that point... ...Off the top of my head I can't think of an ancient culture that's known to have let their faith control their actions more than the Aztecs did. Even then that was on a societal level, and the effect it had on the average Aztec citizen in their day-to-day lives was still probably pretty small, besides maybe getting "drafted" into a pointless war... though I don't recall how they chose their warriors, and it's even possible there might have been some other point to those sacrificial wars that's been lost to time. The jungle is a harsh master after all.
Hey here's a tv show you should check out, the name's Life on Mars. It's named after the David Bowie song and features John Simm, it has 2 seasons and a sequel show also named after a David Bowie song called Ashes to Ashes. Every episode is about 55 minutes, the show is underrated and you should check it out.
Lol, now I'm getting my partner into Doctor who, I'm Rewatching these Overdue Doctor Who Reviews. I realise eventually, I'll be rewatching Rewatch Doctor Who Reviews.
This is what I consider a middling episode. Series 4 is my favourite because it has middling episodes (Partners in Crime, Fires of Pompeii, The Doctor's Daughter, The Unicorn and the Wasp) and the rest are all excellent episodes, especially Midnight and Planet of the Ood. For me, there just isn't a horribly bad episode in this season at all. And I really like them all. There isn't an episode i can't stand to watch again.
If there's one thing that I remember nothing me, it was a fewbof the scenes where certain members of the family were taking in a very 'modern' way. It can take me out of historical settings.
I feel like Moffat could have learned a lesson from this episode. Just because they can’t (or at least shouldn’t ha e been able to) save Gallifrey doesn’t mean they couldn’t have saved anyone. 11 and 10 could have used their Tardis to evacuate like a timelords equivalent of a bomb shelter while the time lock was open before War detonated the Moment. They could have left them on a Gallifrey like uninhabited planet and next we see them it’s been several billions years and they’ve rebuilt. Would have felt so much more justified.
Gods and angels are frequently TERRIFYING in old myths. That's why the biblical angels have to open with "Do not be afraid!" Even if you believe the terrifying thing you are seeing is a god, you probably wouldn't try to touch it!
I remember from OG that this was a great example of American fans missing references, since the family was a parody of a typical Roman family from UK textbooks. People of the right age from the right country got a bigger kick than the rest of us. Nice review.
I understand what you mean about the general treatment of religious faith in mainstream culture. In this case, the characters' religion is corrupted by the Paravale, a point made by the Doctor in his conversation with the sisters when he says, in essence, "Your founder was great and she wouldn't recognize this." So inasmuch as the episode is harshing on it, it's harshing not so much on the faith itself but on a faith corrupted by alien interference.
I've never liked the "fixed point in time" concept. It's such obvious device to make the Doctor act completely out of character when the writers want some Big Drama. Here, in particular, it feels completely arbitrary that the health of the space time continuum somehow hinges on these particular 2000 people being buried in ash. (At least in Waters of Mars they gave some explanation on the significance of those events to future generations.) This trope has one legitimate use only: to quickly handwave why the Doctor never seems to want to tackle the Nazis, or other injustices in mankind's past.
Haha, looking at the thumbnail I thought you hated it. Glad you don't, I think this is a pretty great template for what I'd like to be your average Doctor Who episode. Unfortunately, the actual average Doctor Who episode is a lot lower standard.
I have always wished that this episode was a "historical" (a rare episode with no aliens other than the Doctor). The futility of one man fighting tectonic plate movement, that the environmental impact of the eruption can be attributed to the 10 plagues of Egypt... we didn't need monsters. I think the emotions would have been all the richer if the show dared to cast planet Earth as the antagonist.
problem is there is no natural force on earth that can zap the power of a volcano, it would be great if they could. Thats one of the thing I dont like about modern who, they cant do pure historicals. Vincent and the doctor broke my heart, but you do NOT need a monster as an allegory for depression, its hard enough as it is. The unicorn and the wasp could be a pure murder mystery then a pure mystery, especially if Agatha finds hints as to what the doctor really is, he did do something no human can do with that poisoning!
I love that you brought up the religion thing because as a deeply religious person it's very annoying to constantly see yourself represented in the media either as naive or some kind of maniac for simply viewing the world differently. Being religious doesn't make me incapable of critical thought, nor does it make me delusional... If I saw something that looked like the angels that are described in the book of revelations I can guarantee you my first instinct would be to run away, even if I recognised it as an angel. Being able to justify something with your faith doesn't make it not terrifying.
I know what you mean, in every bit of lore on every faith, when humans are faced with the divine; angels, faeries, ogres, etc they lost their shit and ran. There is a running trope in the bible where angles have to say be not afraid and get off your knees.
I appreciate your opinion on the faith guiding behavior. You articulated a feelings I've had for a while most beautifully. I've seen religions other than mine targeted more often, and it never felt right to me, just as a piece of bad storytelling - to the point of a plot hole, in some cases - even beyond the preachiness of the screenwriter. And if course, your analysis of the episode is superb. Although I wonder if Donna helping the Doctor make a difficult decision wasn't a bit of a copout to let the Doctor remain morally pure.
@@tomkenning5482 It's been a while since I last watched. What, specifically, are you referring to? In which other episode did he deliberately cause the demise of a human, or any other intelligent creature, other than Daleks, Cybermen, or other unsaveable villains?
@@tomkenning5482 That didn't happen on screen, and besides, Doctors Nine and Ten were all angsty trying to atone for that. BTW, for destroying a planet and an entire species of alien, OSC coined the term _xenocide_ back in the '80's. I think that would be more appropriate. (Genocide is a loaded and way overused term, IMO.)
The point about the depiction of religious characters is similar to the trope of having characters from the past respond to modern technology in a ridiculous way. The medieval knight thinking a car is a dragon, and so on.
Mystery boxes: Don’t forget that there’s something on Donna’s back...
Also, when this was broadcast, the disappearance of the bees was an actual thing in the news in the UK. Bee numbers were down due to pesticides and other environmental issues, and this was pretty important. So when it came up in Dr Who, it was a bit fourth-wall-breaking, fixing Donna in the NOW of the show when broadcast. Which is interesting (especially in hindsight).
Bees are still dying, I think. Colony collapse disorder. But it's important to note that certain bees are invasive species. Maybe _those_ are the space bees.
"You shot her ... with a water pistol. I bloody LOVE you" - one of my favorite lines ! 🤣
I adore this episode. I'm a Latin teacher and, fun fact, the names of the family members - Caecilius, Metella, and Quintus - are the names of the characters in one of the most-used Latin textbooks in the US and UK. They aren't exactly the same characters, but they have enough of the characters' personalities that I recognized them, and my students would recognize them, right away. When my school district used the book with Caecilius in it, I would show this episode in class, after we finished Unit 1, as an alternate ending to the Pompeii arc of the story.
Re: the thing about the gods and worship. In general, I think you're right. But in Pompeii in this story, the gods aren't just an intangible idea - the people believe that the gods are speaking through the Sibylline Sisterhood, the Soothsayer, and anyone else who speaks prophecy. They inhale the smoke from the hypocausts, which comes from Vesuvius. The god Vulcan is, to their thinking, the one bestowing these visions and prosperity on the town. So I can believe that one of the household slaves would take a moment and stare in awe, and talk about the manifestation of Vulcan in the house - Evalina is about to join the Sibylline Sisters, after all. Why wouldn't an avatar of the gods visit the house? And when Metella mentions the creature after it's been destroyed, she speaks with fear - because the gods were to be feared.
I love the bit at the beginning, and then at the end, with Quintus dealing with the household gods, the Lares, at the family shrine. He's so rote and bored in the first instance, but by the end, with who the family now considers its household gods, he's so much more reverent.
The pun names for some of the Romans are great, too. Lucius Petrus Dextrus - Lucius with the stone right side/right arm. I didn't catch it the first time I watched, but once we saw his arm, the name made perfect sense. It makes me chuckle every time, along with the bad "I am Spartacus" bit.
The Doctor and Donna are amazing together in this story, and Donna's bonding with Evalina is a nice quiet moment for her in the middle of a very hectic, emotionally fraught story. It is one of my favorite modern Who stories.
I'm not from the UK, so I never got the schoolbook reference...that is so cool! Nice callback to the original conception of Doctor Who as an educational show for kids.
I did get some of the Roman name puns, though, those were fun.
So that's what the Doctor meant when he said they'll always be remembered.
I think even Russel got bored of the mystery boxes, so for this series he put 4 in just to shake things up (or give the illusion of shaking things up).
1)The bees disappearing.
2) Lost planets.
3) The Doctor Donna.
4) Rose coming back.
5) Oh, and arguably there is something on your back.
Definitely include "There's something on your back." They mention it like three time over the season.
Don’t forget the Darkness
There's even the several mentions that the Medusa Cascade gets this series (and one in the series before).
youre missing the big one, the over arching story in series 4 IS Donna, she says shes not important, but over and over shes put in places where she needs to step up and BE the one needed, until we know what happened
@@julieeverett7442 - every RTD series has a _character_ arc, I'm talking about cosmetic arcs, really. Like Bad Wolf or Torchwood, you know?
"But your own planet, it burned..."
That line killed me.
The fact that this episode is now 11 years old makes me feel old, I grew up watching the Tennant era.
DUUUUDDDEEEEE make us all feel old 😭😭😭 jk jk
I grew up watching the Pertwee era. If just 11 years makes you feel old, just wait until the day you're in a pub with your grown-up children...
I grew up in Pertwees era and came to new who as an adult!
And now it’s been 3 years since your comment 🥺
Karen Gillan is in this episode too. One of the sisterhood.
I agree with you as a whole but I have one point to pick up on, regarding the whole character walks straight to the Pyrovore moment. It seems that you are applying the actions of one person to the actions of the masses. You are right, that on seeing a Pyrovore that most people would turn and run but Phil Davies's character (it was him, right?) wasn't most people. He been 'spoken' to by the Pyrovores to create that circuit thing, for quite some time, and was also quite an egotistical, full of himself, power hungry chap. For his character it makes sense for him to go towards it. He has done their bidding and now they have shown themselves in time for his reward. That's how I see it from his point of view.
lwaves I don’t think he’s talking about Phil Davies’ character. He’s talking about that random guy in the family’s house who gets killed instantly when the Pyrovile appears for the first time. He only has like one line which is something like, ‘Blessed we see the Gods...’ or something like that.
@@TheConfessionDial I don't remember that character but then it's been a while since I saw that episode. If it's not Davis's character then it makes a difference.
Maybe Nathaniel will see this and clarify who it is he's talking about?
It appears I've called them Pyrovores instead of Pyroviles too. Oopsie. :-)
Davies was the town seer he was talking about one of the house servants
There is also „There is something on your back”.
I forgot how much I liked Donna. She might be my favorite companion.
I love your tangents haha. they make your videos unpredictable and so much more entertaining.
Always hated that volcano line at the end. Either they should've left it out and never address who came up with the word, or seeing as Donna said it to him earlier in the episode a few times, he could've just remembered her calling it that and they just play it out as a paradox where the word is conjured up from nowhere.
This one hurts my heart in a great way. When she begs him to just save one. It's like the reflection of the dr dances. Some days you can say everybody and some days you can only save one. but both are just as important.
The Doctor Donna is a less obvious mystery box, its the same echo-back concept we see in "The Big Bang", just far more subtle.
Caecilius: It could be a really obscure reference to the UK education system. If, like me, you where at a school that taught Latin in the seventies, the text book you worked from had the ongoing story of everyday Roman Caecilious and his exploits.
I think the RTD did say the character names were from the school Latin books. I used them at school in the late 70s / early 80s.
Grumpy Oldman Great, I’m glad that it’s confirmed that I’m not just ancient and insane!
Donna is the best. She is on his case the whole time but that moment where she places her hands on top of his. Both helping him share the burden and sacrificing herself. Then afterwards making the Doctor save someone. She totally won me over in this episode.
You know, in the actual Bible whenever an Angel shows up everyone's reaction is "AHHHHH."
I know, right? Seriously.
This is one of my favorite episodes of Doctor Who and I love when Capaldi recalls it later on in the Girl Who Died (I think? The one with Maisie Williams-and that sounds like a Friends episode title) It breaks your heart but it is so good and like you I just LOVE that Donna doesn't let the Doctor pull his "I'm the Doctor, I know what I'm doing" routine on her. I love when she says "Donna, human, no!" then tells him "I don't know what kids you've been traveling with, but you don't tell me to shush!" Or whatever the exact line was.
As for religion, well I'm with you that the one servant's reaction to walk towards the fire monster was absurd. But speaking as someone who does have faith but is of a denomination that values reason (Episcopalian), I don't really get offended at this sort of thing. I always take it as a critique of people who accept what they're told about their religion without thinking about it and believing that if you question it means your faith isn't strong enough.
Anyway, great episode, great review!
Such a great episode 😁 10 and Donna are great as always 😁 ‘you shot her with a water pistol, I bloody love you’ 😂 ‘doctor, timelord, yeah’ ‘Donna, human, no’ 😂
I'm a little disappointed that you didn't open with a loud 'MORDERN ART!'
Part of roman mythology is that the gods did actually walk among humans from time to time so it’s not as bad as your making it out even if it’s still a bit dim
People were likely more inclined to believe supernatural explainations. Science explained less of the world then. A lava monster would likely more be a monster, but if there would a winged person suddenly appear, what would people think first. Even capaldi probably thought tennant was a god in human disguise. They had shapeshifting gods having shinanigans in the human world.
Didn’t one of the characters in Fires mention something being on Donna’s back? Pretty sure if that’s the case that’s another mystery box, as it’s mentioned a few times in the series.
Lucius Petrus Dextrus mentions it when he and Evalina are in a prophecy-off in Caecilius' atrium.
I loved this episode; it really proved Donna's mettle as a companion. That one moment, where she realized the terrible choice the Doctor must make, he hesitated... and she didn't just cheer him on, she physically helped him do what he must, defined her as a companion. She then proceeded to beg him to save someone. Tried to work within his constraints, to create a small victory when defeat was inevitable. (That message got a bit garbled with Twelve's Doctor, when he interpreted it to mean, complete victory at all costs, everyone must be saved. Not what Donna said at all!)
Loved this episode. The Latin=Welsh running gag was hilarious 🙂.
Marcus Hicks Celtic... lovely... *Welsh*
I almost died laughing 😂
Just heard the Tenth Doctor Adventures Volume 3 (BIg Finish) last night and I whole heartedly agree Donna and the Doctor are the ultimate combo. :)
The last time I rewatched this episode Donna pushing the lever with the Doctor actually reminded me of the 50th anniversary with 10 and 11 going to push the button with the War Doctor (before finding another way). It was a very similar situation and I like to think that Donna at least partially inspired that decision.
So glad we're finally in Donna's episodes. A few stray thoughts:
Interestingly, the bees were the Mystery Box I noticed - it was Rose I missed.
It's fun seeing people who come back later. Both Peter and Karen were following in long-established tradition.
Donna really did a lot to keep The Doctor grounded. I think we would've gotten the Time Lord Victorious a lot sooner if it hadn't been for her. Speaking of Donna, it takes a special kind of compassion to be willing to share in the guilt of causing a necessary tragedy like she did.
I kind of love that The Doctor and Donna became the family's house gods after they were rescued. Much better example of what could be interpreted as "the gods walk among us" than the Pyrovile was.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I rather enjoy it when you go off on tangents. It adds flavour and colour to what's being discussed and provides perspectives I may not have thought of. Please don't stop taking side trips.
The part where Donna tries to take the young child but the mother comes and carries him away always makes me cry. In general, Donna's desperation and pleading with the Doctor makes me cry. Actually, the bit where she pushes the button with the Doctor is where I start to cry and then it's downhill from that point lol. For years I always thought this episode was a two-parter hahaa no idea why but I thought that for a LOT of Donna's episodes
Love this episode. I like how the Doctor is forced to let history take its course, and is forced to kill thousands, allowing the blood on his hands. This episode shows that Catherine Tate (and by extension, Donna's character) in terms of performance has more than just playing the bossy gobby character that Catherine usually plays. The monsters are gorgeously designed, albeit are a bit cliched in terms of character. Besides that, this got the ball rolling for Series 4.
I feel like even if time travel were possible, preventing the really big stuff from happening wouldn't be. The Civil War was gonna happen regardless of the actions of any individual. So I like an episode that says "You can't save everyone, but you can save someone."
The whole episode I couldn't help but remember my Latin textbook which was based on the family Caecilius, Metella and Quintus, a realy family that died in Pompeii
Don't forget mystery boxes also included the Medusa Cascade and "there's something on your back".
Technically you could also include the Shadow Proclamation too technically
Also another small mystery box is “there’s something on your back” which pops up in this episode, and the coincidences with the Doctor Donna ( her car, wilf ect.) that dalek kahn made
This anti-religious stuff started sticking in my craw about 7 years ago. I'm an atheist, and for a good 20 years before that time I was one of "those" Atheists (the kind who give Atheism a justifiably bad name), so when I first saw this episode I LOVED how it showed how idiotic and irrational Religious folk were. It's a huge reason of why it was on my top Doctor Who episodes up to that point.
But starting 7 years ago (right after my first child was born, which I don't think is a coincidence) my attitudes towards Religion and the Religious started to change. I didn't gain a religion in any sense, but I did start to respect the idea that there may be something out there that I can't understand or comprehend, and I started to see Religion and Religious folk in a much more charitable light.
In a lot of ways for me, seeing this kind of anti-Religious stuff is like smelling cigarette smoke on a jacket; as with a significant number of ex-smokers, I have a much higher aversion to the smell of cigarette smoke, and a much more visceral reaction to it than smokers or people who have never smoked. (I swear I can smell it on my boss's jacket the moment he gets off the elevator at work, like 20 yards away from my desk.) So when I see it portrayed in media, or on Social Media, it hits me harder than it hits other people.
but isn't it obvious that religions are lies and there's no evidence for any gods? do you think there's afterlife for all animals or are we somehow special? is there a seperate heaven for turtles? all those religious ideas sound ridiculous, science proves there's no need for gods in the universe
To be clear, I am mostly agnostic and atheist. I don't really believe in supernatural entities, but I do enjoy the festivals associated with religions.
That said, here's my opinion:
No one should care if someone else believes in afterlife or in gods. God isn't really falsifiable, so refusing to believe in gods is just as illogical as believing in gods. Science doesn't disprove that gods exist, and it doesn't prove that gods exist. People just normally pick one and stick with it.
For religious people, religion can be a source of strength or morality for people. Atheism can inspire people to be more rational or practical. It's only when people start forcing their views on other people that problems arise. The wisest course of action is to let people believe what they want, unless their belief starts causing significant problems.
This episode didn't bother me very much though. That dig on religion was such a small part of the episode that I could just ignore it. There are so many good things about this episode that the bad parts just fade away from memory.
@SkoczMinaPukiel:
Yours is the kind of post I used to make all the time. (just with better grammar, because I loved to lord my "intellectual superiority" over people on forums and other message boards by using superior grammar) It doesn't actually rebut anything in the post it is replying to, but it plays very well to like-minded individuals (particularly the anti-theist sect of Atheism). And they don't even make sense when you start to break it down - it sounds nice, but misuses words to elicit emotional and visceral reactions in the hopes that people will ignore the obvious problems with the post itself.
Is it obvious that religions are "*lies*"? No, no it is not. A lie is a deliberately told untruth, and that is not something inherent in religion. It is not a lie to say there is an Afterlife because there is no way to prove nor disprove the existence of an afterlife. Saying "God watches you Masturbate" is likewise something impossible to prove or disprove, or "Don't eat Shellfish" or "Be Modest in your Appearance" or "Find Balance in all things" or whatever else Religions say lead to a happy afterlife. They aren't lies because there is no provable truth that they are contradicting.
My disbelief in an afterlife does not mean that people who claim there is an afterlife are lying or are liars or in some way are manipulating or misrepresenting something for personal gain. It simply means that I don't believe in the same things that those people believe in, and until I'm dead, I won't have any way to know which of us was right. And if I'm right, after I die it won't matter anyway because I don't believe there is an afterlife to go to in any way, shape or form. It will only be an issue if I happen to be wrong about that, that there is an afterlife and I screwed up my living life so that I don't get a good afterlife.
I love this episode a lot. I love Donna calling out the Doctor all the time and her being done with his BS. My fave lines from this episode are "TARDIS, Time Lord , Yeah" "Donna, Human, No" and that also i love Donn'a line when she says "You fought her off with a water pistol? I bloody love you." A very Donna line. I feel like i never have bad things to say about the episodes from this series cus i love this series a lot. there are no episodes i skip, each one is brilliant in its own way. The dynamic between David Tennant and Catherine Tate is great. I just love this series. i genuinely cannot think of anything bad or even slightly critical to say about this episode or the other episodes
Tennant knew Capaldi was a DW fan and told Moffett take a look cuz that man is one of your future Doctors
I think it's really funny how the minute they set a story in Pompeii, the writers decided to have fun with the Cambridge Latin Course books.
For those who don't know, when learning Latin in school (typically private school, so not that much of the population), most will learn from a series of textbooks called the Cambridge Latin Course. The first of these books is set in Pompeii and follows Caecillius and his family (although the writers made up Evalina).
Oh. And they had fun with people's names. Like the male soothsayer's name is Lucius Petrus Dextrus, which literally translates from Latin as Lucius stone right hand.
@@splitinfinitives Only Petrus isn't Latin of course, it's originally Greek.
@@bacul165 true, although it was a name used by the Romans, even though it was derived from Greek
I was like "AW YEAH, TENNANT TUX!" and then you raised your hand and the pride ring on the collar slayed me. Great video!! My boyfriend and I watch you like gospel, hahaha!
"Whoever saves one life, it is written as if he has saved all humanity."
The quote is from Talmud, and it itself is not a quote, but a deduction, and a religious principle.
As a matter of fact, I believe it's in the volume called Sanhedrin, which deals with courts.
I dont know I dont see people walking towards the monster but maybe falling to their knees and praying or begging for their life like that guy in the mummy
Dude, Roman Mythology was full of so many terrifying monsters and even the gods were dangerous to approach unsolicited, there's no way a devout Roman man of faith would just walk up to a lava creature willy-nilly.
It's technically also multi Doctor story as the seventh Doctor Who is also there with Mel (Fires of Vulcan)
This episode starts like a typical Who episode not filler and not a big story. Just a nice to move the series along. Then the episode turns on its head in a big way. Everything in the last quarter is brilliant.Not forgetting if the Doctor did leave it would have changed a fixed point in time. So either way he was creating a fixed point. Tate and Tennant were so powerful, raw and outstanding. Series 4 is where I feel RTD finally had all the pieces come together. Might be his best series of Who. Oh don't forget the best line in the episode "You shot her with a water pistol. I bloody love you"
Not sure which I prefer this or the Fires of Vulcan with 7 and Mel.
I honestly dissolved into tears of laughter at your rant about blind faith and the living fire monster, too funny.
The 'Fires of Pompeii' is a brilliant episode - well acted, beautiful balance of humour and pathos, mystery and the chemistry between the Doctor and Donna is established well so early on. Capaldi is great as Caecilius, and it's lovely in retrospect to see an ardent fan being part of the show, who would go on to play the Doctor himself!
Tennant's face, when Donna was pleading, was really powerful the first time I watched it, and solidified my love for Tennant as one of the best Doctors. At the time, he was the best, but Capaldi has done exceedingly well in trying to dethrone him. They're now tied.
I appreciate your thoughts on the religious portrayal. I grew up in a religious family, but my parents always taught us to, yes, have faith but you gotta do your part and still go to the doctor, protect yourself, and study hard.
I had hoped you talk more about the invention of the word 'volcano', since you referred to that line early on. I don't know much about the history of Latin, but I just can't believe that the Romans didn't have a word for volcano until the eruption in 79. They knew about Aetna and Stromboli, right? Aetna erupts all the time!
Oh shit I only just found out that the Roman family is literally lifted straight from Book 1 of the Cambridge Latin Course which in turn was based on an actual family that died in Pompeii oh that gives me feels.
Wasn't one of the storylines hinted at this series Donna's back or the thing on Donna's back? I feel like that came up a lot leading to the finale
Did anyone else notice how the doctor says that he’s only made the decision to trade lives once when Kate Stewart asks him in the black archive when he actually made it in this episode and in Parting Of The Ways as well as the time war?
In the Bible even, when people do see angels and stuff, they're always afraid.
Granted, biblical descriptions of angels sound like something out of Lovecraft. So there is that.
But your point does stand.
@@scaper8 The Biblical descriptions of angels are both awesome and terrifying at the same time. ;)
Fun Fact: Scientists have since determined that the eruption at Pompeii would have produced such a powerful Shockwave that anyone in Pompeii would have been killed instantly by it. So Cacellius and his family have been dead before Donna and The Doctor landed in their rock-ship thing.
Stop ruining our entertainment with your science! First we get told raptors were two fee tall and looked like chickens and now this!
Was the mystery box really that obvious in 2008? I thought the rose thing was obvious, if not a bit obnoxious, but everything else seemed just quirky. If I'm honest, I've never been a massive fan of this episode, but the reflection from series 9 does improve it for me.
"Why did I choose this face?" Because originally Capaldi was supposed to be the Doctor after Tennent, but things changed and Smith was next then Capaldi got the part (which worked out for the better in my opinion).
*Citation needed
I generally like the pyroviles, I think their design helps a lot because they don't rlly do anything aside from having humans work for them
I think you also have ATMOS cars appearing here and there (not in this episode of course) but I think it’s in a couple of eps?
"don't get funny in latin" is one of the best lines in the series
yes im rewatching overdue doctor who review, what about it
I always remember season 4 as the darkest, most mature. I think that holds up, looking at the upcoming episodes. I like when it gets dark and gives honest commentary, rather than monster of the week obvious allegory.
I honestly just love seeing the fan theories that have come out of this episode. Super fun!
This is my personal favorite episode. Yeah, the villains aren't great and the characters aren't all written well but for me it's about showing 10 and Donna's amazing relationship as Doctor and companion. The "just save one" scene to me is the perfect Doctor-Companion moment and is one of my all time favorite scenes.
Doctor and Donna what a combo
I will always accept this headcanon (courtesy of the fandom) that the Roman dude played by Capaldi was actually the 12th Doctor all along, and he was just trolling his past self 😂
Given that he had a wife, fathered a kid, and had a career, that's a long freaking con to be playing.
@@CouncilofGeeks Haha yeah 😂 Definitely not plausible enough! And yeah we already had the explanation that 12 just chose the face BECAUSE of him saving that man.
BUT Doctor Who opens itself so much to time paradoxes etc etc so ANYTHING is possible in this show 😂😁😂
No mention of the Mary Poppins reference?
THANK YOU for addressing the issue with the portrayal of religion in media, specifically with Christianity. It's really frustrating to see my religion often portrayed as villainous or wrong or silly. So thanks for addressing it.
Somebody has read the Astérix books! The family is more than loosely based upon the family from one of the books. The use of the names is a nice touch, too.
No views, two comments
I think TH-cam is drunk
These types of comments need to stop
HouseholdWheel lol
I never realized before that Capaldi's character basically had the same name as minor villain from "Doctor Strange" who became the major villain of the movie.
marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Kaecilius_(Earth-616)
This was originally a Big Finish 7th Doctor story called "The Fires of Vulcan". It was their first story with Bonnie Langford. Believe it or not, it's actually worth listening to.
regarding the faith issue, I agree. In the bible angles anouncing Jesus's birth had to first say "do not be afraid"
The angels constantly said "do not fear" because angels were described as terrifying.
The modern art joke killed me i was on the floor laughing
as a "religous" person (i believe in god but not super churchy) and loves science i respect your views on how peoples beliefs are dealt with badly sometimes. but it's a problem with davies and moffet in general even outside of doctor who, one thing that i like about chibnal is that he seems better in that area, with his speech at the end of his first series (yeah it's still a story about faith being manipulated but it isn't completely insulting people with religous beliefs).
also really you didn't notice the thing about the bees? i noticed all three mystery boxes when the series aired (to be fair though i was looking for them at this point) but i would say that this series shows how they can be done well by not pointing them out and just having it in the background and not even being noticable in stories and in some episodes not even being brought up. also if you add the there's something on your back line and the doctor donna, there are five mystery boxes.
The Doctor/Donna is a great one.
I can't say much definitively about how seriously ancient Romans took their faith but I did take a university course on Greek mythology and one of the points brought up there was that you're basically right... the average folk were fine with the idea of terrifying terrible gods existing so long as those gods left them alone to go about their day to day lives. Even if they *did* think they saw Zeus come down from the sky, they'd be running the other way.
It didn't go so much into the Roman attitudes but I don't see any reason why they would have been much different in that regard. So I definitely agree with you on that point...
...Off the top of my head I can't think of an ancient culture that's known to have let their faith control their actions more than the Aztecs did. Even then that was on a societal level, and the effect it had on the average Aztec citizen in their day-to-day lives was still probably pretty small, besides maybe getting "drafted" into a pointless war... though I don't recall how they chose their warriors, and it's even possible there might have been some other point to those sacrificial wars that's been lost to time. The jungle is a harsh master after all.
Hey here's a tv show you should check out, the name's Life on Mars. It's named after the David Bowie song and features John Simm, it has 2 seasons and a sequel show also named after a David Bowie song called Ashes to Ashes. Every episode is about 55 minutes, the show is underrated and you should check it out.
It's funny to me that you call it underrated when I think it's probably in the top five most frequently recommended shows for me to look at.
If I could do anything to doctor who now it would be find some timey wimey way to break the memory lock thing and get her back in the Tardis
Lol, now I'm getting my partner into Doctor who, I'm Rewatching these Overdue Doctor Who Reviews. I realise eventually, I'll be rewatching Rewatch Doctor Who Reviews.
This has to be one of my favorite episodes.
This is what I consider a middling episode. Series 4 is my favourite because it has middling episodes (Partners in Crime, Fires of Pompeii, The Doctor's Daughter, The Unicorn and the Wasp) and the rest are all excellent episodes, especially Midnight and Planet of the Ood. For me, there just isn't a horribly bad episode in this season at all. And I really like them all. There isn't an episode i can't stand to watch again.
If there's one thing that I remember nothing me, it was a fewbof the scenes where certain members of the family were taking in a very 'modern' way. It can take me out of historical settings.
I feel like Moffat could have learned a lesson from this episode. Just because they can’t (or at least shouldn’t ha e been able to) save Gallifrey doesn’t mean they couldn’t have saved anyone.
11 and 10 could have used their Tardis to evacuate like a timelords equivalent of a bomb shelter while the time lock was open before War detonated the Moment. They could have left them on a Gallifrey like uninhabited planet and next we see them it’s been several billions years and they’ve rebuilt. Would have felt so much more justified.
A magma monster? Didn't Romans have the equivalent of demons in their mythology?
Alex Wright etruscans
Gods and angels are frequently TERRIFYING in old myths. That's why the biblical angels have to open with "Do not be afraid!"
Even if you believe the terrifying thing you are seeing is a god, you probably wouldn't try to touch it!
I remember from OG that this was a great example of American fans missing references, since the family was a parody of a typical Roman family from UK textbooks. People of the right age from the right country got a bigger kick than the rest of us. Nice review.
I understand what you mean about the general treatment of religious faith in mainstream culture. In this case, the characters' religion is corrupted by the Paravale, a point made by the Doctor in his conversation with the sisters when he says, in essence, "Your founder was great and she wouldn't recognize this." So inasmuch as the episode is harshing on it, it's harshing not so much on the faith itself but on a faith corrupted by alien interference.
when I was little I thought that when the main villain reveals what they are for some reason I thought she said cauliflower😂
I've never liked the "fixed point in time" concept. It's such obvious device to make the Doctor act completely out of character when the writers want some Big Drama. Here, in particular, it feels completely arbitrary that the health of the space time continuum somehow hinges on these particular 2000 people being buried in ash. (At least in Waters of Mars they gave some explanation on the significance of those events to future generations.) This trope has one legitimate use only: to quickly handwave why the Doctor never seems to want to tackle the Nazis, or other injustices in mankind's past.
love the water pistol bit but overall it was kinda meh..... and there was that Amy Pond bit.....
Haha, looking at the thumbnail I thought you hated it. Glad you don't, I think this is a pretty great template for what I'd like to be your average Doctor Who episode. Unfortunately, the actual average Doctor Who episode is a lot lower standard.
I have always wished that this episode was a "historical" (a rare episode with no aliens other than the Doctor). The futility of one man fighting tectonic plate movement, that the environmental impact of the eruption can be attributed to the 10 plagues of Egypt... we didn't need monsters. I think the emotions would have been all the richer if the show dared to cast planet Earth as the antagonist.
problem is there is no natural force on earth that can zap the power of a volcano, it would be great if they could. Thats one of the thing I dont like about modern who, they cant do pure historicals. Vincent and the doctor broke my heart, but you do NOT need a monster as an allegory for depression, its hard enough as it is. The unicorn and the wasp could be a pure murder mystery then a pure mystery, especially if Agatha finds hints as to what the doctor really is, he did do something no human can do with that poisoning!
Even in the Bible, people freak out when approached by angels, hence all the "BE NOT AFRAID!" as in "I said Be Not Afraid! Please stop screaming!"
Ive got a soft spot for this episode
The first appearance of the 12th Doctor.
There is something on your back.
I love that you brought up the religion thing because as a deeply religious person it's very annoying to constantly see yourself represented in the media either as naive or some kind of maniac for simply viewing the world differently. Being religious doesn't make me incapable of critical thought, nor does it make me delusional... If I saw something that looked like the angels that are described in the book of revelations I can guarantee you my first instinct would be to run away, even if I recognised it as an angel.
Being able to justify something with your faith doesn't make it not terrifying.
I'd say The Doctor Donna was another small mystery box.
SweenyTodd98 That was the third one I thought of, but that doesn’t show up until “Planet of the Ood.”
I know what you mean, in every bit of lore on every faith, when humans are faced with the divine; angels, faeries, ogres, etc they lost their shit and ran. There is a running trope in the bible where angles have to say be not afraid and get off your knees.
I seriously love how you phrased this!
I appreciate your opinion on the faith guiding behavior. You articulated a feelings I've had for a while most beautifully. I've seen religions other than mine targeted more often, and it never felt right to me, just as a piece of bad storytelling - to the point of a plot hole, in some cases - even beyond the preachiness of the screenwriter.
And if course, your analysis of the episode is superb. Although I wonder if Donna helping the Doctor make a difficult decision wasn't a bit of a copout to let the Doctor remain morally pure.
The doctor I think was the most morally impure in the RTD era so I'm not too sure about that
@@tomkenning5482 It's been a while since I last watched. What, specifically, are you referring to? In which other episode did he deliberately cause the demise of a human, or any other intelligent creature, other than Daleks, Cybermen, or other unsaveable villains?
@@menachemsalomon That was the introduction of the time war, and the actions he took there which was genocide
@@tomkenning5482 That didn't happen on screen, and besides, Doctors Nine and Ten were all angsty trying to atone for that.
BTW, for destroying a planet and an entire species of alien, OSC coined the term _xenocide_ back in the '80's. I think that would be more appropriate. (Genocide is a loaded and way overused term, IMO.)
Fun fact these Roman characters are based on real people from Pompeii however they all still actually died
Was the Emperor considered a god at the time Vesuvius erupted? Maybe the Roman religion was taken a bit more seriously?
The point about the depiction of religious characters is similar to the trope of having characters from the past respond to modern technology in a ridiculous way. The medieval knight thinking a car is a dragon, and so on.
"THE GODS WALK AMONG US!"