Cummins O-ring vs Fire Ring Head Gasket | Parts Bin Ep 27 | Power Driven Diesel
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ธ.ค. 2021
- In episode 27 of The Parts Bin, Will and Todd discuss the differences between o-rings and fire ring, and which option is best for your Cummins build. For 750HP or above, fire rings are the most reliable head gasket option.
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The fire ring gasket set is about $300 which is plenty cheap if you ask me.. for what you get and the protection against blown head gaskets that you get, it's one of the things that's pretty cheap compared to what you get from it❤❤❤
4:13 "crank that timing up to 50 degrees and tell me how those little ARPs hang in there."
*Boom*
Will is too savage sometimes!
Keep the informational videos coming 👍🏻
Always love the parts bin tech. Appreciate you guys making it clear as day and sharing the experience of having tried different set ups and sharing what is successful.
5.9 Any suggestions for 5.9 stock engine to turn up HP to 500 to 600 HP with used engine of 200000 miles 1 owner for head gasket upgrades
Yea that was super informative love to see it really help me out and then I can try and steer customers into the right thing for them
Very excellent episode, I didn't fully understand what the differences were, thanks !!!!
I’ve always wondered about this…. Thanks a lot for making this video!
Glad it was helpful!
This is why I buy parts from you guys. Thanks for the information! Cant wait to get the compounds installed on my truck!
Thanks Brad! Good luck on your install. If you IG your build make sure to tag us.
Good info. Been needing this lol. Still waiting for injectors so I can install my pdd towing compound on my 06 5.9
Excellent explanation!
Thanks as always great information keep it up David
Always!
Great info, thank you.
Y’all really should start a podcast. Instead of bringing new people on all the time, give us information like this. The do’s and dont’s and information on things like fire ring vs oring or what advancing timing does exactly. Y’all could cover so much and with your experience , it would be a top notch podcast. Keep up the good work fellas.
Thank you Randall
Thanks for the info
Really great video guys i was not shore the difference between the two
so this video was very much appreciated 👍
Take care and stay safe may God bless you always
🤦♂️ 🇬🇧
Glad you enjoyed it
I learned a lot from this! I wish I had seen this before I bought my new head 😂
Thats great info. I didnt know that it was ok to use an oringed head on stock head bolts. pretty cool if i need a new head ever I will be going with the oring setup and arp2000 on my 01.
I have an 08 dodge ram diesel so my head gasket is steel. Thank u Tim
So with the radius cut fire rings compared to the old square cut, what’s the general life span of a fire ring now on a daily driver? Great info and I like these kinds of videos 👍🏽
I have seen a few fail in the 50-60k mile range but they were all head cut only. I only know if one set over 100k but honestly most of the engines making 1500hp or more rarely are together long enough to log those kinds of miles in my experience. Cooked rings, excessive blow by, burnt pistons, cracked heads, or just wanting to change the setup usually happens first in my experience.
We agree, very small sample size of trucks with big horsepower and 100k plus miles.
@@pddofficial so what is the lifespan of the DD ones that didn't experience some other failure mode or driver-induced disassembly.?
fire rings would fail based on heat cycles, not strictly mileage ?
@@chriskahlson is the ring itself that cycling out¿
Do you think it is that thermal expansion is essentially forging( squeezing the molecular lettuce form into a tighter denser lattice) the ring smaller, causing it to lose pressure and sealing ability?
No hot re-tq is asking for trouble. Stock tune (160/400) 1st gen took at least 1/8 turn across the head with my head full rebuilt+ fire ring by industrial ( no o ring option, fire or bust +industrial gasket) running your IFG studs TQ 3 step to 125 x 3 hot with movement 4th held. 13k so far. Loaded my 2nd gen 4x4 on for 16,020( cat scale) at 500mi then circumnavigated the Great Salt Lake to seat the rings getting the third hot retorque at the top of rattlesnake pass on I-84.
Hell Yeah Brother
Very good info! I appreciate it greatly. Getting ready to do my head gasket and was wondering what the differences were? Btw , I noticed you talked about 98 5.9’s and newer. I have a 96. Is the oring still a good option?
My truck never lost a head gasket but I finally at 340,000 miles pull it to freshen it up and give back to the truck that's paid for itself ten times over and never gave me any problems besides a heat exchanger going bad so while I'm in there I am sending the block and head to the shop to get machines and thry are cutting the fire rings in both block and head because now that the truck is my toy daily more than anything it's just gonna keep getting more and more power haha and I ordered two sets of fire ring gaskets one for the shelf and one to go in❤
What are your thoughts on copper coating gaskets? I did it on a 600 hp 12v built (no o-ring or fire ring) with exotic head studs. 3500 cab and chassis dually. 19* or timing and have towed with it before. Haven't seen any issues with it.
I have an 07 6.7 that I was wanting to have O Ringed but I didn't realize there was a difference if it was MLS. What is recommended on these? Thanks for the video guys 👍
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witch one would be better for a daily driver / weekend pulling truck i have an 07 dodge with the 5.9 in it not the 6.7
Would there be any advantage to doing double fire rings? I realize it would be a extremely tight fit. Maybe there isn’t enough room?🤷♂️
I believe hot torque is everything. I'm still running factory style head gasket with arp 2000 torqued 10 ft lbs over and 3 hot torques so far no problem been about a year. Not sure on horsepower level but its 88 over injectors 2nd gen swap 60 lbs of boost. I have fire ring head gasket on the Shelf but I couldn't find anybody to cut the groove for me that's close to me so I had to go back with the factory.
Cool that is surviving! Really how you drive it will have a big impact on how long it lives.
@@pddofficial it lives a vary hard life lol
Does a 03+ gasket fit or be safely modified to go on older trucks?
Great info! We are currently freshening up the 12V in my son's 1996 Ram. So if we have the head cut for O-rings at a local shop would they also supply the wire for the rings, or is that something you sell? I assume you carefully cut the stainless wire to length versus them coming as rings. I looked on your site for O-ring wire but didn't find it.
I found the information, looks like you just buy welding wire and carefully fit it into the groove.
I know this vidjeo ain't about them, but O ringing your heads and using ARP studs is really the only way to keep from blowing head gaskets in a 6.0 Powerstroke, which as most people know is a huge problem with these engines.
Properly installed fire rings machined radius grooves in the block and head, and crushed appropriately, so torque and hot re-torque I know on the v motor it could be tough. A hot re torque on my Subaru sti would be an act of god. I still pull motor and try my best but any hp application you must be dedicated and do what needs done. Do not use square grooves must be radius and machined with proper crush tolerances. Honestly I don’t waste my time with o rings. If I’m that deep and it’s turbocharged it’s getting fire rings
Appreciate the good knowledge you guys are always throwing out there! Was wondering if you guys could do a video on Todd’s mega cab now that he has the full manual valve body. Does he like it as a daily with that setup? Has he had the chance to tow with it using the ratchet shifter? Thank you!
That video is coming soon! I will give a little teaser. Tows crazy good! I got some good shots pulling a pretty good grade.
Is there a mls gasket for the 12v's ?
Hell I might have to do this on my old toyota. Building a turbo 22r hybrid and people blow head headgaskets like crazy
Fantastic Video I love Parts Bin episodes. I do have one question though. I bought a head from you guys an had it o-ringed as I thought a daily driver/street car would benefit from it but sounds like modern day fire rings would have been better. Is it possibly to fire ring a head that was previously o-ringed? I would assume yes but not the other way around? Thanks!
It is possible, but he groove diameter is different so the head will need to be surfaced about 020" to clean up most of the o-ring groove and then cut for fire rings. If you're not making over 750 HP, the o-ring setup should last.
Is O-ring better for daily/ towing? Would an o-ring handle compounds with 70-80 psi with mild timing? Lastly should you always hot re-torque or only with a certain setup( head studs, o-ring,etc…)?
O-rings are what's in use on Will's "daily driver" 1998 12v with compounds pushing 80 psi used for towing and hot street driving, been going strong for 80k miles! Every headgasket we install at the shop regardless of stock gasket, stock with o-rings, or fire ring, gets a hot retorque after a short low power heat cycle.
What Brand Head Gasket do you have the best luck with? What is your go to Head Gasket?
Cummins, Mahle, Felpro, Victor Reinz all seem to be similar quality on the composite 12v/24v gaskets, the PAI and Interstate McBee used to be a step down but they both have improved/changed design where they seem similar quality as well. On the MLS gaskets, the Cummins and Mahle seem to be the best when shooting for big power with just studs. The other aftermarket MLS work fine on the stock to moderate power level applications.
I have fire ring head with CA625 head studs and compound turbos, I totally agree with the boss there’s no point to use O rings if you’re making increased power. I hot re-torqued and did oil change at 500 miles then every 5000 or 50 hours, I am not an aggressor driver, so far zero issues at 250 hours.
Any issues since? It’s been 2 years still holding up?
Any issues since? It’s been 2 years still holding up?
What head gaskets would you recommend for a 6.7 cummins with arp studs? Aftermarket or factory?
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Is it possible to add/install an engine retarder - jake brake to an 03 24 valve Cummins
Are the Orings pre cut or are they cut by the end user?
Also what holds the Orings in place when putting the head in place
Yes we pre cut them and they are held in place by the groove they are tapped into the cut groove.
how about copper gasket with o-rings?
MLS, does anyone make one for the 12v.
How much cylinder pressure are you transitioning over from O ring to fire ring?
Peak cylinder pressure is hard to measure without special equipment in a test cell environment. Torque is a good indicator of average cylinder pressure that is easily measured on a dyno, etc. 1400 ft lbs at the tire seems to be a great transition point to need a fire ring head gasket. Usually around 1500 ft lbs is when o-ringed and studded 12v and 24v Cummins fail. These are "general" guidelines, true peak cylinder pressure, fastener clampload, block/head flatness all effect when the head lifts and the gasket fails.
Do your hi flow heads come with the grave cut in them for the o ring ?
It's an option in the drop down menu
If it’s a race block, why not dry deck block and heads and use copper head gaskets.
Are there any MLS gaskets available for the 12/24v 5.9's? Would you recommend them if there were?
They do have MLS gasket but the surface on the blocks and head are wrong surface finish
If the block and head are machined properly for a cosmetic mls on a 12 or 24 valve will they live with good studs to say 1500ftlbs and 800hp? I don’t see why they would not but I hear a lot of stay away from the mls on the old engines. I suspect most of that comes from people using them on blocks that are not flat and smooth but have no personal experience with them so I can’t say.
A few years back we tried a Cometic MLS headgasket on a 12v here at the shop with a freshly surfaced block and surfaced head and ARP 2000 head studs. The head lifted and the rubberized bonded layer peeled off causing a coolant and oil cross leak along with pushing water on each dyno pull after it failed. The turbo setup was our ultimate towing compound turbos around 575 rwhp and 1325 rwtq. That was the one and only time we tried the Cometic MLS gasket so other's results may vary.
@@pddofficial I purchased compound turbos (ATS 3000/5000) and ARP 2000 head studs. The two options out there are Cometic and Mahle. I almost ordered Cometic today. You just saved my @$$ thank you.. I CANNOT break down in Baja California or I'll lose my truck and trailer.
Would you recommend a hot re torque on an o-ring head with MLS gasket?
Yes
So how tall is Will’s podium??? 16”?
When you finish installing an O ring does it sit flush in the groove or does it stick out a little?
It will protrude out .013. The wire is .040 and the grove is cut .027
So timing blows head gaskets not boost? So if I can make 800 at 25 degrees of timing I don't need this?
Peak cylinder pressure blows head gaskets. Cylinder pressure is created from airflow(boost), fuel, and injection timing (amount of time fuel has to burn relative to piston's position in the cylinder and therefore overall volume to burn/expand).
If you make 800 HP with 25 degree total timing on a diesel, you could probably make 50 more horsepower with more optimal timing. Most builds tend to try to optimize the power potential of a given combination, but if the head gasket is a limiting factor, power will be sacrificed in the name of reliability.
Could y'all clear this up for me please. You say 2003 and up MLS gasket vs the old composite ones. But I thought Cummins oem updates to the MLS for the older models? Or am I not understanding something right here
If the block and head are machined to the proper flatness and higher surface finish specification for MLS, there's no reason it wouldn't work, but we're not aware of a Cummins branded MLS gasket for the older engines so the rumored OEM update is most likely a rumor.
@@pddofficial very interesting... Makes me really wanna buy another one just to tear apart. When I did my head gasket couple month ago and was torquing the head and on the edge of the gasket it look like MLS style layering steel. Though I didn't pay much attention because I was busy wrenching lol.
I always wondered why companies like cummins don't just manufacture the head with a raised ring around each cylinder from the factory I mean it would make the engine even tougher and duramax and Ford especially could gain from doing it haha
I’ve done 1 hot retorque. How many hot retorques do you recommend before taking full power?
What studs are you using?
425’s
I’m looking at getting the heads ported and the fire ring on the block and heads for my 2002 F350 DRW 4x4 CC LB Lariat 7.3 Powerstroke, Do you guys work on Fords? I got the KC300X stage 2 turbo 63/73 with the .84 housing, 304 grade Stainless Steel headers, and upgraded to 5” turbo back exhaust, Holders Premium 180cc/80% nozzle injectors, PHP Hydra tuner, Going with the stage 1 cam kit because I’m building for Heavy Towing. Please let me know if you can do the porting head work and valve/springs/retainers rebuild, Thanks!!!
At this time only the 6.0 sorry!
@@pddofficial Right On, Thank You Sir
U can’t o ring a MLS gasket. It will leak……
Been there done that in my Grand National when cometics first came out.
We don't oring MLS either, but we know of shops that do it with copper wire instead of stainless and have success. That said, will a copper o-ringed MLS gasket really hold more power than a standard MLS? Maybe yes? Maybe no?
Where can I buy a in the block o ring cutter?
iskycams.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1565
It's easy if you have the tools.I do.
Having the right tool for any job makes them much easier!
I have a 2015 6.7 Ram 3500. Tuned and deleted. Blew a head gasket last year installed a new head installed ARP 2000s and MAHLE gaskets. Blew again six months later. Is O-Ringing the head gonna help since i have the metal gaskets?
No not on a common rail you have to fire ring or run the better Arp head studs.
@@pddofficial Thoughts on wastegate install?
Wonder how long my factory 24 valve gasket will last. 12mm opti torque studs. Torqued to 140. 800whp. No rings. Compounds. Between 60-80 psi. Maybe a small smack of nitrious. ⏳🧨
Old gaskets with studs that are well settled and torqued seem to hold more than new gaskets. So it may last for a while, but when it fails, if you go back with the same setup, the new gasket will not last long despite common sense argument that old one lasted x amount of miles at x amount of power. Be ready to upgrade when it lets go, might be tomorrow, might be next year.
@@pddofficial Thanks for the reply! Yeah when it goes its time for o-rings. Machine for top hats. And a mild port job atleast to the exhaust side. It would delay the build even longer if I did it all now. Short on $$!!
How much power will a 12valve or common rail handle with only headstuds ?
I know you weren't asking me but I've blown head gaskets twice with just studs on stock turbo and injectors. The stock hx35 chokes up hard around 40 PSI boost. The drive pressures go crazy.
@@lowellmiller6663
Thanks for the reply 👍
With careful timing and slower spooling large single turbo (reduces peak torque), we've seen 12v engines handle 550 rwhp and 24v MLS gasket engines handle 750 rwhp. On the Common Rails, it's easier to "tune out" the low end torque with reduced fueling/injection timing and then bring in the timing and fueling at higher RPM to squeeze out a bigger HP number for a given safer maximum torque number.
@@pddofficial
Thanks for the reply, I have one of pdd towing compound kits and didn't want to screw around with fire rings lol
Have a couple 12 valves I'm probably pushing my luck with lol
That's kind of what I was wondering, I had no plan on Oringing the head, but deck the head and block, a good set of head studs and maybe build the engine to 500 HP, but I also was looking at ported and polished heads to keep the egts down, not sure how low I need to get them, but I'm hauling 30k pounds tomorrow in my 6.4 powerstroke and basically cant keep it under 1200 to 1400 degrees just cruising. When I 5.9 swap it I'd like to be able to cruise under 1200 if possible
can you put a MLS gasket on a 89-02 engine?
In our opinion, no, it doesn't work well nor is it cost effective. But Cometic does make a $300ish MLS gasket for 12v and early 24v, but it has a bad track record.
@@pddofficial Thanks, I wasn't really looking to do it, just wanted to understand why that doesn't work.
Do you have a shop that can fire ring a 4 cylinder?
Yes it is $300.00
does a mls gasket exist for a '97 ?
They do they are made by Cometic but you need the block and head machine for them to work properly
So here’s a question. Can you cut an o-ring head to a fire ring head?
Yes and no, generally the centerline of the o-ring groove is different (larger diameter) than the centerline of the fire ring. However we've successfully cut a fire ring groove mostly over the top of an existing o-ring groove on an experimental shop project engine and it sealed up fine. If the o-ring groove is in the head, it can usually be surfaced 020" to remove most of the groove and then the fire ring groove will clean up the remainder.
hello can i contact with you about cooperation\
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OLÁ. O uso de seu sistema de "reforço" de vedação a partir do seu sistema requer um "artista" e não um mecânico. "O RING" é outra coisa. ABRAÇOS...Roberto Udo Krapf
Isky Groove-o-matic for the poor man's oring.
Junker Drag Truck circa 2009!
Do it right the first time and your never need to do it again...
skip all of this and go MLS
On a factory MLS 2003 and newer Common Rail Cummins, that is a viable option up to around 1000 HP with high end studs. On pre 2003 Cummins, MLS has not been reliable in our experience.
@@pddofficial sounds like a you problem with flatness and finish RA. we both know that horsepower means nothing to a gasket