Love Shez! I really wish Byleth had a voice in Three Houses, because Shez not being silent definitely helped my enjoyment of the character Honestly I even wish they removed the little dialogue options, I’d rather they just write a character. I don’t like it idk!
Shez felt like a return to form for an avatar character. They're narratively along for the ride and not the center of everything, while still being a part of it. And both designs felt more grounded than whatever femByleth had.
The moment you couldn't customize the physical appearance of your character like in Awakening and Fates was the moment trying to have an avatar character didn't make sense anymore
oh man! I really liked this video. I wonder if other people like this video! Let me go into the comments and see what people with EXTREMELY NORMAL NAMES have to say on the topic of this video!
I’ll be real, personally I think that was to serve as a happy medium for those that didn’t want an avatar. I remember when fates came out how many people wrecked on Corrin.
@@shaktra1563 That's the WORST of both worlds though! Being able to actually make your character custom in looks is one of the few reasons you can argue that there's a reason to not just call your character the default name!
One of the most disappointing aspects of Three Houses is that Byleth could’ve been a great secondary protagonist if he was allowed to speak. The idea of an emotionless and coldblooded mercenary being thrust into a mentor position, needing to guide young minds along the right path, slowly becoming attached to them over the course of the year could’ve been powerful. It would’ve made even the darkest and most impactful moments in Three House so much better, and it would’ve cemented him as truly irreplaceable in the game.
Agreed. The emotionless Ashen Demon is a great character setup, but other characters don't treat him as such. I actually have a soft spot for Leonie's B support. It's hideously timed, but it was nice to meet someone who didn't think Byleth was the greatest person ever, even if it was for a dumb reason.
@@bificommander7472 I agree with you about Leonie’s B support, and I feel like many other supports had great potential if Byleth could speak. Marianne’s A, Felix’s A, Ferdinand’s A, even the entirety of Ingrid’s and Annette’s supports are great examples of Byleth being a supportive teacher. All the Ashen Wolves, the 3 Lords, Hanamane, almost every character has one or more fantastic supports with Byleth. Given a bit more liberty, Byleth could’ve developed these characters, and himself, even further than ever.
I agree, one example is the end of part 1 of the black eagles ; when dimitri learns edelgard is the flame emperor he snaps, when Byleth learns the girl they fought side by side worked with people that killed their father (to their understanding at that point in the story) he just has that little shocked face and says nothing. same thing when you make the choice to betray either the church or edelgard (especially since all of this happens after the death of Jeralt where Byleth expresses emotions). voice the character, or give us more lines to say than just "answer a" and "answer a number 2"
I like the idea of Byleth, bc being a professor would naturally entail that you’d need an avatar character to teach all the students, but them being silent (even though they talk CONSTANTLY in canon) among a fully-voiced cast, yet still having a personality under there that you have to dig for, is kinda wacko. And I do love the explanation for why they’re silent, but that could’ve just been an explanation for why they’re so stoic. Oh WAIT, but it is!! The game says Byleth is outwardly emotionless bc of the heart transplant thing. The devs could’ve just stopped there and made Byleth voiced, but just *not* have them be very excitable in the delivery of the lines. Three Hopes makes Byleth SUCH a better character
byleth is good in theory, and especially in three hopes, but the whole thing about them being lifeless but eventually growing out of it is not shown in either game, in three houses because they're always voiceless and emotionless because avatar, and in three hopes because they get basically two seconds of screen time unless you mess up and make them go angry mode
@@dimik6745 Ah, but that's where you're mistaken. This is a commonly held misconception. We actually only have 17 Fire Emblem games, so we're still 759 games away from 776!
One other thing that I dislike about Fire Emblem avatars is that they’re all so tame. They can’t have a whole lot going on personality-wise to not risk having the player hate the avatar, which would defeat the entire purpose of them. Meanwhile the writers have a lot more freedom when writing the side characters, who can be much more fun and relatable to specific people, because not everyone needs to not hate them.
Honestly, I like the Mark/Robin (and to a lesser extent Byleth) approach. In FE, you're making a lot of decisions. It's just that practically all of them are tactical decisions in battle. So having a self-insert character who is responsible for the tactical decisions in battle, and NOT the inflexible decisions of the plot, makes sense to me. Whereas a character like Corrin/Alear feels wierd, cuz their role as protagonist in a fixed-plot story fights with their role as a self-insert: Corrin listens to the player on the battlefield, and ignores their desires everywhere else.
That's why i like mark. You are the tactician nothing more, the lords are the protagonist and make the important decisions in the plot. feels nice that time to time they acknowledge your existence and are grateful for your work
@coldeed Yeah, he is more plot centric, but would that have mattered if he wasn't written as a self-insert? Honestly, if they hadn't made the self-insert concessions that he can't choose to do anything bad, everyone has to love him, and he was the most broken character in the game, then I think the story would've had the potential to be considered one of Fire Emblem's greats. I mean the story of an enemy planting a traitor into the main lord's army and the main lord being betrayed by his best friend but not realizing who that is until shortly before it happens could've been written to be one of the more dramatic Fire Emblem stories. Awakening just got hampered by the power fantasy and self-indulgency that the creators decided to put into the game
@coldeed Robin is significant to the plot. He's also Crom's subordinate. I'm not arguing that self-inserts should be irrelevant. I'm arguing that self-inserts should have the same limits to their freedom that the player does. For Fire Emblem, that means tactical freedom, but no meaningful influence on strategic/policy decisions. That's why Robin works so well: both you and Robin are put in charge of executing battle plans. The player cannot decide what the party does in-between maps (that'd be too expensive). Robin cannot decide what the party does in-between maps (He's Crom's subordinate). It's not a perfect execution, but it works far, far better than Fates' constant tension between player and protagonist.
I actually like Kris for how funny his whole existence kinda is. He's also a fun unit. Then Robin was relatively well handled but then all the avatars since have really jumped the shark although i do like Byleths backstory and design at least. I admittedly enough enjoy self inserting as avatars but i would really love the next non remake to have a legit main character.
Funny how you get to the same conclussion that I got way back but for different reasons, for me the actual straw that broke the camel's back was Byleth. As I can still name Mark, Robin, and Corrin with those names and convince myself that is isn't supposed to be me. But then Byleth being a Silent protagonist on a game whose one of its strongest perks is that it's fully voice acted just makes me not stand him. Even if I name him Byleth, I can't escape the fact that they are trying to push the "Hey that's you" move for how bland he is.
Actually, Byleth's silent protagonist style is pretty popular in many games, and I think it was probably inspired by the success of Persona, based on the social aspects added. Also, Byleth isn't really without personality; the responses you can make are usually snarky, and he can show a lot of emotion when he wants. It's a part of the plot; he's a traumatized child soldier renowned at a young age for his skills, and his stoicism is a quirk of his birth - Jeralt notes his weird behavior and lack of emotion (hey, he's literally heartless).
@@junkyatv I did like how Byleth actually started to smile a bit into the narrative. It was a nice visual indicator to the player that they were changing. It was sad when they stopped. But thats... basically it. "The silent protagonist has character, you can pick sarcastic options!" is the absolute most bare minimum you can afford one. Persona 5's Joker has more observable character traits on his pinky finger than Byleth does across their entire game and he's still remarkably one-dimensional. I think Digimon Cyber Sleuth is one of the more interesting executions of a silent protagonist due to them having fully voiced monologues when no one else is around. This harkens back to Fate Extra, where, while the protagonist never speaks a word, they have a LOT of interesting things to say through being the first-hand narrator of the game. Hakuno is a fully-realized character despite ostensibly being "the player." The reason Persona's silent protagonists work is also because going to high school is a relatable, almost universal human experience. Being a teacher isn't, and being a tactician in life or death battles definitely isn't. By the end of my Golden Deer run, Claude and Lorenz felt more like the protagonists. Byleth was only there to marry Marianne and fight the battles. And Lorenz was optional, I could have gotten him killed, hell I hated him in the Academy Phase, but his personal growth in the War Phase and his rivalry/friendship with Claude were more engaging than Claude's buddy-buddy attitude toward Byleth. Three Hopes shows that Byleth does actually speak, quite regularly, they're just cold. It's not that Byleth is silent because they lack a heart, it's the other way around. Byleth lacks a heart in service to explaining why they're silent. Byleth could have just been a faceless, voiceless vessel to contextualize the player's actions, or a hero who unflinchingly and unquestioningly fights evil, and it would have been fine. But Fire Emblem cannot shake the human experience. It isn't a story about war, it's a story about the people fighting it. The protagonists need a reason to pick up their weapons, and Byleth definitely has them. But those reasons are given so much contrast with their almost absent personality, so much empty room to breathe, that they have nothing to do but suffocate.
oh yeah marriage in 3h where you can marry your grandmother, who is, tecnically your mother and part your father, who is part your grandmother who is part yourself.
I like th3 way Mark works. I always liked it when i got one of those little asides ftom specific characters on esch map. Felt like they were reacting to what was going on.
I just want a Fire Emblem game where the main character is a real character and there is no avatar. Give Ike's games the Echo treatment and I'll be more than happy.
I hope they treat every other remake from now on as well as they treated Gaiden with Echoes. It's not a perfect game by any stretch because it was working with a flawed and kind of weird game as a basis, but oh my god it's so well made and well presented. Shadow Dragon and FE12 were fine, but Echoes is on a whole other level.
@@cringekid3993I've actually not played Genealogy yet so I would be down for it! But from what I know about it I am a bit worried they would tone down the more intense themes. As long as they don't change the characters or the designs too much I'd be open to it.
The idea of forcing an Avatar into Genealogy is legitimately hilarious to me considering the actual plot of that game. It would be an absolutely awful inclusion but a part of me really wants to see them try to do it anyway.
Good vid overall, but I would like to put in a small addendum that Bopper pointed out. Corrin isn't poorly written because they're naive and make bad decisions. Character flaws are necessary to good writing. That's why I think you went too easy on Robin, he's actually flawless in the context of the game, just a pure beacon of virtue and good. Corrin is poorly written because they're never punished.for it. No matter what route you take, every sympathetic character takes time to assure you that you're completely right and perfect.
Good lord, compare that to the Tellius games. The trusting characters are actually manipulated into doing things that they realize are horrible, and even the characters in the moral right understand that the war they're fighting has no purpose but to further the aims of evil people. Modern Fire Emblem could never.
Unfortunately, gameplay wise he's definetely the worst one. He's so good the most effective way to play Awakening is to think less and let him and Crom solo the entire game. Effective. Think Less. Strategy Game. Those words shouldn't go together
Robin is the worst example. Nothing entertaining about them, shitty iskeai fantasy bullshit that steals the plot. I hope we never get anything like that again, I wish he never happened.
Yeah, honestly, Robin would be the best one if he was just allowed to fully be a character. I like the idea of a story about a character who is used as a plant in the lord's army and will eventually betray him, and the characters realizing this as the story progresses. Unfortunately, the self-insert writing does hamper Robin's quality and the overall story writing is unfortunately tarnished by just how hard they push Robin. They should've just canonized Chrom's relationship with Sumia, and slowly progressed Robin into being his right-hand man and best friend. The relationship was a bit too quick and it would've been more interesting if Lucina had come back in time to warn of Chrom being betrayed by his best friend and there not being an obvious answer until late into the story where it became obvious that Robin and him had become true best friends, and an awkward moment where Chrom said Robin was his best friend and they both turned to each other realizing what that meant. The overall plot should've been their story, and I don't mind it starting as a Chrom story and then quickly becoming a Robin Story by mid to late game, but it would've been good if the final few chapters really did feel more like "their" story as opposed to a Robin story with Chrom backing him up. I think Robin was the closest to getting a self-insert that was still a real character, but they just pushed the self-insert concessions into the gameplay and story a bit too much
You are the type of channel that I love to share around. Good delivery, fun , seems well informed (I really don't know about FE) and captivating in a topic I shouldn't care
After engage was... engage, I'm genuinely wondering if the next FE overcompensates in the other direction and half the supports are your allies talking about how much they fucking hate you. Would at least be a change of pace lol
I want the Valentia video! I just finished playing it and loved it! One thing I really appreciate about it is how simple it is because FE games can often feel like decision fatigue simulators.
Whats really funny about Alear is throughout the game every single time someone worships her she gets increasingly uncomfortable, since from her point of view she just woke up and got placed in a position of power. The problem i have is the game presents two aspects of Alear that they never fully push, the first being fell dragon Alear who's whole demeanor is extremely different to the Alear we've come to know as their more violent and unhinged pre Lumera. And then Alear the coward who's afraid to fight but is constantly forced into situations because her believers need her to step into her mothers shoes. Wish they expanded on her character much more.
@@tirex3673true my bad was goin off the wicked smile from the Flashback and not the actual story. I did still want to see more of that Alear tho, maybe have her slowly go back to being her old self as the game progresses as she's forced into more fights she really doesn't wanna be in making her close herself off again. It's a shame cuz I really like Alear but I think outside of support convos she's done dirty
@infinitezion2029 I understand, though I don't think Alear would ever revert to who they were before they met Lumera. The one bit of weirdness here is more after that, as Alear seems to have grown up, while asleep, considering, who they were, when they fell. (Though tbf, not having this happen might have resulted in Alear turning into an even more naive Fates!Corrin, and that would have been a terrible idea.) However, I love past Alear, so much, that it makes up for the bonkers justification for their most notable appearance, and wish, we got to see more of their journey, instead of just two snapshots. Small part of me wishes this was the actual plot of engage, but that would have been a much darker story (even if it does have a happy ending), which would have been difficult to tell in the framework of a fire emblem game. I think, a more realistic approach would be either SoV style memory prisms, or some kind of set of paralogues, where Alear starts remembering.
Saw two of your videos (this and the problem with nuzlockes) and both of them were genuinely bangers. I really like how you write your scripts! Can’t wait to see this channel grow.
About Mark, there were totally people who wished they actually had more importance back when Path or Radiance wasn't even out. People liked to fantasize about them being a unit you had to keep alive, that could fight back, and that even had supports with some characters, along with all the benefits that would bring. Of course, that was just a pipedream back then, but I feel it's important to point out because "Mark" definitely sowed the seeds for the fanbase to want the Avatar idea to be revisited later down the line, which it eventually did with FE12 and then Awakening. In Awakening in particular, Morgan (Robin's child) is called Mark in Japan, and in the DLC, Lyn asks you, the player, if you are "Mark", solidifying this connection , as tenuous as it may be. It should be noted that while Kris wasn't popular, it might simply have to do with the fact you couldn't ship them with anyone. When Awakening was announced to have an Avatar AND that you can marry them with someone of your choice, people were far more into the idea of "self-insert yourself into the story", so much so that Awakening had new lesbian and gay fans onboard (given that advertisements said that "you can marry anyone you want!") ...only to get the rug pulled out from under them when it turns out you can only marry anyone from the opposite gender. It took until Engage for the series to finally just let players marry whomever they want. Or, er, sorta marry, in some cases, I guess. It's the thought that counts. It's also important to note some of the more frustrating similar components of the Avatars since Awakening: namely, the fact they are either an analogue for Jesus, God, or Satan (or a combination of those). Not to get into specific spoilers, but: Robin -> Satan Corrin -> Jesus Byleth -> God Shez -> Satan Alear -> God and Jesus? A little bit of Satan, too, I think. (Kiran's the only exception so far.) Essentially, the Avatars are, by design, pivotal to the story as a plot device, as opposed to just being a soldier of the army, or a "mere" Lord, which would require a personality to be memorable. Some people argue that the Avatars would be better if they could just be their own character, and some go beyond that and argue that they ARE their own character, but the "gotcha" here is that most of the fans of the Avatars specifically like them *because* of all the advantages that comes from pretending they are said Avatar: the shipping, power fantasy and everything else. So, if we were to actually make the Avatars their own character, I'm quite positive that many "fans" of those Avatars (as a character) wouldn't like them nearly as much, because then they'd by design become an obstacle for the Avatar fantasy that made them love them in the first place. It's harder to support, say, Robin X Lucina when you're not "Robin"...also, since Robin wouldn't be an Avatar anymore, that means they would lose the "Gen1 unit that can marry Gen2 units" privilege, so it wouldn't even be possible to do that ship anyway. Essentially, what I'm trying to say is that, some people are completely fine with Avatars as a mechanic (along with marriage), because that's the entire reason they got into Fire Emblem in the first place. That they pretend that the Avatar can be curbed in gameplay and story is foolish, when the very design they keep arguing must stay is damaging those very aspects of the games. At least what they're trying to do with it as it is. It's not impossible to make it work, but they'd have to change the design of the games a great deal for it to *potentially* work, and I imagine they'd rather play it safe. Now, I want to step back a bit and state that, honestly...you can make an argument that Marth, Alm, Roy and PoR Ike are all very much "proto-Avatar"-ish, in that they are ridiculously young teens who essentially solve every problem the world has, and you the player are expected to act as if you are them, in a sense. At the very least, they are the audience surrogate. Ike is actually really good for a protagonist in PoR, but in RD the story bends over to make sure every action he does solves everything, not unlike the way the story is handled with an Avatar character. Alm is a bit of a special case, since he technically shares spotlight, but Celica is literally...well, not to get into specific spoilers, but the story sure as hell makes sure to tell the player that she's in the wrong, and that everything Alm does basically solves everything, even when he doesn't know it will. I think the original director, Kaga, understood this was a bit of a mistake storywise, back when FE2 was on the Famicom, because FE4's Sigurd tries to pull off the same strategy (Step 1: Go to war with whoever is doing bad stuff. Step 2: Win! Step 3: ??? Step 4: Peace!), and it bites him in the ass, hard. Anyway, the point I'm making here is that Fire Emblem is no stranger at making the protagonist the center of the universe, and we Westerners got lucky we started with Blazing Blade, which had a story shared between 3 Lords (FE8 also had 2 Lords, but it sure likes pretending Ephraim can do no wrong...). When we look at the big picture, it's clear IS is taking advantage of the new audience introduced in Awakening and Three Houses by "pretending" the main character is an Avatar for them to use as a vehicle for the fantasies, only for said Avatar to be written into the linear story and as if they're a character like Roy or Marth. And, honestly, I can't say for sure I'd prefer them to go back to pre-Awakening style main characters, because I have a feeling if they did, girls would have significantly less opportunity to have a main character sharing their gender. Just a hunch. I really would like them to try making a story with an actual Avatar character with a malleable personality and them only technically being part of the army . like Kris was to Marth's, though. Just don't enforce them being BFFs with the main Lord in the story. Bonus points if they don't get to interact with the Lord at all, and have to be put into these ridiculous map scenarios that makes you wonder who the hell they're serving and if they crazy.
I disagree on Alm. Everything turned out okay in the end, but I don't think it's the intent of the story to say that Alm was entirely correct to invade rigel the way he did. It resulted in him killing the last of his family, and the story makes it a point that Alm is permanently hurt by this, probably to act as some sort of narrative consequence for his actions.
@@Liezuli If this is about his father, he actually planned to be killed by Alm, so how much it hurts Alm in the end doesn't really matter (nor is it elaborated upon) because it's ultimately "part of the plan" and saved more lives than if he had been as treacherous or power hungry as Desaix or Slade were. Thus, regardless of how much it hurts Alm, it's not a bad thing in the way, say, Est can die and leave her sisters Palla and Catria in mourning. If this is about Berkut, well, that's a whole can of worms, but Alm really had no reason to like Berkut at all, given how much of an egotistical jerk he was. The fact Alm actually stated he wanted to befriend him simply because he was related by blood to him is actually laughable, because it contradicts the underlying message that Echoes was trying to deliver: that blood, no matter what, shouldn't be reason to give preference to people. Alm (as the player) can save Mathilda, Delthea, Tatiana and Zeke despite the fact they aren't related to him at all, because ultimately they're all good people trapped by villains, and his righteous sense of justice compels him to save them. Not that Berkut was completely unlikeable: Rudolf had screwed him over in a rather improper way, but Alm had no way of knowing such things until he was literally being told he was going to be Emperor. And we all know how Berkut felt about that. An actual character that would have hurt Alm on a personal level if he had to kill them would be Mycen: he's practically Alm's (and most of his friends') grandfather, there's potential for Mycen to be forced into that position (some villain either mind-controls him, or he's forced to take command of a small army for Rigel at the behest of a corrupt officer) and the player would have no doubt some connection to him as well given they at least controlled Mycen at the prologue. Not to say the plot would be better for it, just that Rudolf and Berkut dying as Alm invaded Rigel really didn't hurt Alm as much as the cinematics implied it would or should. It's probably why they tried to one-up both of those deaths by having him "kill" Celica, but we all know how much that stuck. To top it all off, in-gameplay, Gaiden/Echoes has statues that revive people, so death is actually a little cheaper in that game by design. Gaiden's story didn't acknowledge them but it had a pass because it never really made that much of a big deal of Alm and Celica's personalities, but Echoes' cutscenes combined with its insistence to leave the gameplay maps and mechanics untouched made them a bit of an awkward plot hole in a title that tries to treat death more seriously.
@@WhitehawkePAUNCH Even though, it was all part of Rudolf's plan, Alm still got duped into it, and he's never okay with it after the fact, multiple times lamenting that he never got to know his father, and telling Mycen in his support that he should've told him the truth. And there's absolutely nothing that suggests it was the best, or only, way that Valentia could've been saved. It's just the one that ended up happening. I'm not trying to say that the story couldn't have handled it better, actually, I think there's a lot that could've been done better. I'm only saying that, regardless of how well it was done, it's not the intent of the story to say that Alm was right about everything.
In Fates you can marry Ratharja (or whatever she's called) and Niles, though both are very stereotypical gay and sometimes offensive to some LGBTQ peeps
Great video I mostly agree with! It is a shame that Avatars have been super popular but I feel like they have been less and less popular every subsequent release. I cannot even think of any enage fans who think alear is a pinnacle character but that is just my experience. One thing I wanted to add that is not really related to the video is at 4:37 when people attribute Awakening to being more "Anime" than previous releases. I very much diagree with this sentiment because Fire emblem has always been anime. If you compare the tropes of most anime in 2005 with path of radiance you will find that path of radiance is about as similar to them as engage is to modern day anime. FE changes with trends in anime and other gaming trends and I hope those trends will eventually step away from avatar like characters
I think I should've been a little more specific about the anime comparison, because I'm well aware that Fire Emblem has always been anime. I think what makes Awakening and onwards feel more "anime" is that it feels like a different kind of anime. The way I judge anime and anime-adjacent things is with my patented Dad Test; how embarrassed would I be if was watching this on the big screen at my parents' house with my dad in the room? I would regularly play FE7 and 8 on Wii U in the living room as a teenager, never felt an ounce of embarrassment. If I went back home and played Engage, I would probably pass away on the spot from embarrassment immediately following "RISE FROM A THOUSAND YEARS AGOOOO"
Byleth and Alear are funny; because they remind me to renameable protagonists that are other wise pretty much unchanged character-wise from other Adventure and/or RPG games, characters like Link, Crono, Cloud, the many versions of the Eirdrick title, and the like, but with one very big difference... You can actually make The Hero a woman. And I think seeing the characters in that way, changes quite a bit our perception of them I believe... They're really suppose to be "The Hero" instead of "The Avatar" now. The Hero potentially be a woman has it's own appeal, because it allows a female protagonist to play with dynamics that normally aren't possible because that character is expected to be a man, even when they're re-nameable, specially when they aren't. A female protagonist can't just exist like a male protagonist does, she has to be explained and justified, but that isn't really the case with the Fire Emblem Avatars/Heroes.
It's such a shame since Robin and sometimes corrin actually have decent supports with other characters. Like Robin and Cordelia (a pretty good one) and the fact that Lucina and F robins support is pretty funny But we never get to see the characters develop past certain points because SPOILERS x character made a choice that was dependent on the way the player wanted to go down. Hell it even happens to shez but he barely effects the story aside from "I'm on this side now for some reason" and he does have his own character and funny supports. He's like the straightman to all the characters weird antics like Lysithea being all angry she was called young. I agree. They should just make the avatars their own character. Alear is Alear, Shez is Shez, Robin is Robin and so on. The writing is literally the same for the characters except maybe they have to say S/he depending on gender. But like overall they can actually say their own name outside of heroes or emblem rings.
What are the odds of just finding an amazing channel, subscribing and seeing a new upload a few minutes later? Dr. Doodles' journey inspired me to challenge myself to use Pokemon, and this shall be my background video
i think most people nowadays enjoy self-inserting into media in general, its nice for most people to escape their "boring" life to be a leader in magical medieval warfare. some games lean into this escapist aspect such as stardew valley (obviously a different genre). the trouble is now audiences struggle to squeeze themself into a character that they didn't make. although problematically, fire emblem has lackluster character customisation so they're in an awkward space where they're too afraid to pick a side and the protagonist thus becomes something you cannot insert into nor a fleshed out interesting character, which just makes for bad storytelling built on the foundation of a boring protagonist.
Imo, my problem with avatar characters goes beyond the "character" and more so the over all tone of the story at least for FE in general. Because of how FE designs avatars they want to make the experience more wish fulfillment for their target audience. For a more experienced player of this franchise or other similar games, it leads to the games' plot being predictable, sometimes nonsensical, and not being taken as seriously. Three Houses is a bit of an exception, but there is that aspect that you are the savior of the leaders of each faction based on the route chosen, which is why Byleth is not the worst offender, but can still be a bit annoying.
The whole situation in CF with edelgard and rhea over byleth to byleth helping dimitri snap out of instead to his friends/loved ones to the devs flat out stating why 3 hopes is the way it is just makes me double down on not wanting avatars in the series (that's not even getting into the other writing plagues that the series needs to drop) If they must stay, can we just get an ordinary person who joins the war like everyone else and doesn't have anything special about them that constantly makes everyone go WOW. Like literally just give us Kris again but without the black hole of a personality. Shez was cool since there are a couple scenes where their presence isn't even there and its just lord + retainers + nobles discussing politics. Made the world feel bigger by reminding you that shez is just a mercenary and they obviously wouldn't be there because they have their own thing going on (which also isn't shez's entire personality, but a side goal of rematch vs byleth) Like where can they even go from here. We've gone from >Mark being the reason Bern and Etruria went to war >Kris being so OP that he tells Marth to take credit for his work >Robin being some super OP designer baby >Corrin being a water dragon with a chainsaw sword involved in heavy family drama >Byleth being friends with a god and the entire continent wishing you played their route >Shez >Alear being a god
Take us back to the days with well written MC like IKE THE BEST LORD IN THE FUCKING SERIES. Seriously I will never understand why they won't go back to writing MCs like they did for ike in PoR.
@@FoxEmblem01 the problem is that the trash sells better. PoR was well written but sold awfully, fe13 was full of tropes and weeb shipping with a player self insert and sold the best. Naturally they're going to make more games like fe13. The big problem with the player avatar is it weakens the lord character. Ike wouldn't work if there were a player self-insert character hogging the spot light. Ultimately PoR is Ike's story from his PoV, but if you insert an avatar character into that its at best going to be Ike's story from the avatar's PoV. Its why in the larger scheme of things, Chrom was a decent lord, but got sidelined in awakening in favor of the player character. He had strong motivations, was charismatic enough, and he had a decent character arc. The problem is that that's all in the first act of the game, then he's kinda just... there. Avatar characters also rob the lord character of decision making. It'd be kind of like if Ike just deferred all of his decisions to Soren. It weakens the character.
With what youre saying about Fire Emblem engage, I cant help but feel like that the twist youre talking to is that he loses al the rings and then is like "You forgot about one more Emblem... the Fire Emblem... and it 's the friends we make along the way!!!" And the he summons the other people on the box art as emblem ghosts or something.
Its kinda oftopic but one thing that bothers me about Alear is that they can not turn in to a Dragon despite being one. I know there is a story reason but it bothers me.
Characters getting sidelined for the sake of the avatar is my number one biggest grievance in the modern Fire Emblem games. You already mentioned that it would have been better if Byleth was not part of the second act of 3H, which I absolutely agree with...but it's so much worst in Engage, it's so god damn worse. You have a main character (Alear) and four other protagonist that ARE MEANT to get focus and development, but most of them never do. Two of them never go through an arc or any character devlopment at all (Alfred and Timmera), another one has a sort of arc that is never wrapped up in a satisfying way (Ivy). The only one of the four protagonist that actively goes through an arc with a beginning, middle and end is Diamant. I won't go to much into it because I have made this argument before, but pretty much I felt Engage should have been Diamant's game. He has everything set up for him to be the main character and if you compare him to Alear and think about it juuuust long enough. It does not make sense that Alear immediately knows how to fight, lead an army, or having any concepts at all on battle strategy as the game never once explains how they got this experience. You know who does have that experience? Diamant. Even after a year, I am still very salty about this because I felt like we were robbed of a better main character (that actually feels like a Fire Emblem character) because the avatar has to exists. This is what writing classes do to you. The number one rule of creating a story, if your side character is more interesting and complex than your main character, you should probably focus the story on them instead.
Agreed. The first time I saw Diamant and Ivy, I honestly thought they would have been better main characters of Engage than Male/Female Alear, where the player gets to decide which character they will play as from their perspective. Sure, the ending would probably still be the same for both factions where both sides realize they're being manipulated, controlled or coerce by an outside faction and will result in both intending to end the feud between their nations, but if female players wants to play as a female character and vice versa for males, then that should be the option for them for some variety.
@@Sole-Witness That's why I am super concerned for the next FE game. I do not think it would be wise for IS to create a game centered around the avatar for the 4th (5th?) time in a row. I really feel that whenever this next game comes out, it's either going to make or break the FE series moving forward. Fans of the series has been divided for a while and IS consistently not listening to fan feedback isn't helping matters either. I only say this out of love because I have been an FE fan all my life...but FE needs to go back to their roots big time. IS needs to create a game that satisfies both new and veteran players and recently, they have been pushing their games mostly towards new fans and it has been biting them in the ass ever since. That's all I really have to say about it. I don't know if this next game will be a NEW game or that fabled FE4 remake that people keep rumoring about...but if IS sticks an avatar character in a game where they don't belong. FE is dead to me at this point and we know where their priorities lie...
Terrible fire emblem idea. You play as an avatar. But once you beat the main bad guy, the camera shows the avatar giving an evil laugh. Part one is finished. Part two of the game is playing as a different non avatar character from another land. This person learns the terrible truth on why everyone loves the avatar and attempts to take the avatar down. Who is now the main bad guy.
I'm someone who's pretty okay with avatar characters, but I thought you outlined the problems really well here. I actually really liked alear, more so than any of the avatars, and thinking about how much better they could have been if they just didn't let us name her is kinda sad. Well done, and thanks!
I hope that one day IS makes a Fire Emblem that: isn't rushed, a victim to poor/malicious translation, allows the player to make choices that affect the story and dialogue choices, good maps, and more traditional FE combat mechanics/stats again. But, they keep getting rewarded for making low quality and unfinished games with higher sales than ever, with new players that have low or no standards. I'll keep biding my time for a good lead dev to take over and good team leads to back him up, to make that dream FE game that is as good as I know FE can be.
"YES I KNOW ABOUT FE 4, I wasn't really thinking about it because the marriage in that game is less "Waifu Simulator" and more "Game of Thrones"" I don't really know what you mean? But FE4 was the one to do it "as a mechanic" first though I do agree it did it in a far more immersive way (They don't come from the future or a baby dimension and time actually moves forward)
I also just don't really think about FE4 a whole lot in general because I played it once 10 years ago out of obligation. I get why people like it, but I personally am just not a fan of the gameplay. Especially after seeing how well they treated Gaiden with SoV, I'm holding out for a remake before I truly jump into it and really get into the whole Jugdral era
Its tiring because the games have the same issue a lot of self-insert games have where the entire game just constantly sucks you off and makes you a god that is just naturally amazing and cool and desirable. I just want some fuckin friction and intrigue to how characters interact.
Yeah, creatable characters are things I don't really care for anymore as an adult. I don't care for the writing (especially when things start getting...weird and gross) and even the gameplay customization aspects I don't care for anymore since balance goes out the window and JRPG style job systems don't appeal to me anymore. Honestly would like a game with fully fleshed out main characters with their own name, appearance, backstory, personality and relationships along with a variance in age range (Niime is still the only playable old woman and that game is 2 decades old lol) and characters looking more...ordinary (and tone down [read: remove] the sexualization, please?)
Totally agree. Echoes is my favorite Modern FE game because it got to focus on the characters and plot rather than a half hearted self insert to please the player. Avatars arent inheritly bad but how they're handled in these current FE games is not good. I dont think they'll drop avatars in the next game sadly. The audience they cultivated will riot if they can't marry their waifu and be the praise of everyone's life im plot. Like with anime tropes, FE has dug to deep to simply climb out cuz now they have a pool of fans that like this stuff keeping them in the pit. If they do shy away from it, it will definitely take a hit to sales, and I doubt they want that even if some of the fans would love that change. It's exactly why they've doubled and tripled down on the anime/self inserty stuff after Awakening blew up. Anyway, I digress. If we have ro get an Avatar again, I do hope they make them less of a focus on the plot. An optional unit that exists but doesn't impact the story in a way that takes away from the main characters. Think like a custom character in certain games. Miis, for example.
I have mixed feelings about your point of Avatars. While I do agree about some of the poor decisions made with their inclusion, especially with the over celebration of them. Kris especially. I don't think the idea of have a character that could be named or gendered is inherently negative if done right. Alear while having their own flaws due to the overall writing and theming of the game is his own character and has an arc. While yes you can name and gender him he is still Alear in the end. It does make me question the point of having him as an avatar at all but the inclusion doesn't take away from the experience either for me atleast. Still overall I do agree that there have been many flaws with My Unit characters. We will have to cross our fingers going forward. Also amazing video. You gained a new subscriber hope to see an Echoes video in the future. Love that game
For me our crab friend said everything: it lacks commitment. They want us to see ourselves in a character but dont want to give the player the level of freedom or power of choice an actual avatar would have. I think they should experiment with an spinoff of three houses where instead of a central piece of the plot, your avatar is a commoner who can shape their path slowly, in a more dynamic game and story.
Personally, the "Avatars would not be bad if they were done right" argument kind of falls apart when you realize that IS has tried to make Avatars 5 separate times, with very lacking results. They could get it down one day, but this tells me that they need to take at least 1 or 2 entries to stop doing this. The main reason is that they are not learning or are not learning enough from their mistakes. Engage and 3H may have had largely different teams, but Engage has retroactively taken a step back in terms of avatar writing/inclusion. Byleth was an effort to improve off of Corrin, but ended up being reconstructed into a character that very well should have just been a character. If you look at Engage reviews, critics finally do highlight this issue, but it would be best if IS wpuld return to actual protagonists, master that type of story telling, and then use that experience to make a better avatar in the future.
@@mrfox5117 in a way the problem lies that they still want fire emblem to follow a pretty specific story and still want players to have their own avatar character, which are two pretty conflicting things. I will take an example of a game wildly different from fire emblem but who makes the player character work: Disco Elysium. You can't edit the way the protagonist looks, and you have to deal with his past life, but the moment the game begins, its like if a new man has been born, from the ashes and dust of a pile of old clothes, inside the body of a terminally drunken middle aged man, your character is born. Since from this moment beyond, you're in control of each of his actions and views, you define what he will think and say, and people will react accordingly. For fire emblem to get this level of player freedom, the game story linearity would have to be sacrified in name of a "make your own story" kind of gameplay, which of course can work and exists plenty of examples in the game world of it working, but that would be a first for the fire emblem series.
@@mrfox5117 Fire Emblem is not the only game series that exist. Suikoden 2 has an avatar and it's story is better than any FE combined. The most praised videogame narratives are game like Planescape torment or Disco Elisyum that both have an avatar. Avatars can absolutely be done well, they cannot be done well aa long as Intsys half ass and keep tryong to make this weird middle ground that fail both as an avatar and as it's own character.
@@noukan42 I suggested intelligent systems take a break from Avatars because they are not making good narratives with them in mind. I never said that Avatars are bad, I said that Insys is refusing to learn from their mishaps and that they need to take a break from incorporating a element they are not skilled at incorporating.
Maybe it's nostalgia, but my fav Avatar would be Mark. Little kid me really loved being involved in the story enough to be acknowledged, but not enough to steal the spotlight of my heroes. I'm a stinky adult now and I don't care too much about avatars now, I give them their base name and treat them as their own character most of the time. But I guess there's some kid out there feeling the same I felt back in the day as Mark, now with Byleth or Alear. Even if I don't like Avatars too much these days, I wouldn't rob children of their moment of interaction with these games and their characters.
I’ve said this on a different TH-cam video before talking about Avatar characters, but I actually like the idea of having an avatar, I just don’t like when IS try to make them their own character. Sure give the default their own personality, but handle them in the same way that Pokémon does theirs. I want a FE avatar who doesn’t have much of a background so it leaves us to decide those things, or do the character like Pokémon mystery dungeon does there’s. There is the dragon’s gate that connects to many worlds in the FE universe, so maybe act like our character somehow came through the dragons gate from the real world, but make them lose their memory. That would allow more customization like eye color, skin color, hair color, armor different hair color, etc, and maybe they can either make our protagonist silent, or have different dialogue depending on the personality type you pick. Also I feel like that would be great because say at the end of the game, it could be a somewhat emotional ending because your character likely would leave at the end of the game leaving whoever the lord is sad at the end, but they remember you, or maybe you stay if you S support them or any of the cast members or something. I hope IS will someday give us that type of avatar character who isn’t super story relevant like most Avatar character, but not as bland as Mark, and actually gives our characters some support conversations that are done like Byleth’s in Three Houses, but with more options. It could really make for a fun way to have yourself inserted to the game.
I was never much of a fire emblem fan, and I couldn't quite put my finger on why, but after watching it's ALWAYS been that I felt the self-insert and avatar characters to be a disconnect! I spent the video going "EXACTLY"!
FE 7"You are a weirdo tactician and a good friend. FE awakening: You are a tactician warrior mage who is the catalyst of a dragon. FE Fate: You are a stupid dragon! FF three houses: You are a weirdo like FF7 avatar but can use a sword and you are catalyst of a God Dragon. FF engage: You are literally GOD everyone love's and you are the Fie emblem. Next FF: You are a god yourself player, everyone should kiss your foot. This isn't a game you are awesome! Praise the Player!
I feel like ideally they would be some background character that doesn't really do much for the plot beyond join chapter along with being actually able to choose things like skin tone, body type, base class, etc.
i think the most rediculous thing about alears plot status is that he has 3 people who guard his bedroom which is already in a hard to access place for like A THAUSAND YEARS. there are generations of people that just guarded alears flipping bedroom.
Honestly the reason I like Mark so much is BECAUSE they're so irrelevant to the plot. The story goes on with or without you. You're not this super special hero who's the real reason the day was saved. You're not this royal who everyone loves. You're not this god who everyone worships. You're just some random person who got attacked by bandits and was rescued by Lyn. You talk to the characters every now and then, but when the fighting starts you run off to safety and leave the spotlight. And if you beat the game and you do well, you get invited to a coronation, say your goodbyes, and get a brief mention in the ending regarding how well you did (or didn't) giving advice to the army. While part of me wants a FE 7 (and 6) remake, I'm also terrified they'll have all the characters blow Mark by secretly making him some dragon god or something. FE 7 literally ended with Lyn, Eliwood, and Hector saying "Let's not mention this shit to people". I don't want to be the God Savior of Elibe, I want to be someone who helped out, got to meet a lot of cool people, and then went home when everyone saved the day. And maybe marry Florina.
Thank you crab man for speaking some words. I tried playing some fire emblem games just seeing why there are so many characters in smash maybe i should try them out. Well after playing the games i still dont understand that question idk maybe the games aren't for me but yeah its really funny the self insert characters fail at even being self inserts
The problem I find with Avatar is when they are written in way that suggest that they really aren't supposed to be an Avatar in the first place. Both Shez and Byleth has this problem where they are written in such a way that gives them character depth. Shez has active chrisma that makes him so likable with having dialogue option that makes me care about them being an actual character. While Byleth has a lot of dialogue options that gives them so much depth. They are blunt, making dark jokes but caring as well. In JP version, they canonically call the Remire Villagie situation during TWSITD experiment "fucked up" after Edelgard herself catches herself as she nearly swears. ( Edelgard as FE swear the most out of all FE lords. ) What makes this worst is that depending on the route, both Shez and Byleth has a character arc being only in SB and CF respectively because otherwise, they are written to be an Avatar the player can put themselves onto. Nothing makes this clear then Byleth role in AM narrative where there is next to no character agency. ( Dimitri is explicitly written to be a Otome character. ) Shez character arc in SB is all about overcoming Revenge and achieving something greater and meaningful in life through Shez helping Edelgard out with her war and choosing to fight the war in a more strategic manner. Because otherwise, if Shez does kill Jeralt, then the war is prolong through Claude betrayal and Byleth falling into revenge allowing for Sothis to take over control. SB as a whole is written in a way that lack an Emotional narrative as it is a recontextualisation piece as it meant to change how we view Edelgard, her idealogy and her war in both games. As SB knows that CF is Edelgard emotional narrative so there no point making another. Meanwhile, Byleth has an active role in CF narrative. Rhea after their head of course with their arc being the same as Edelgard. "To allow one to be human again and to not accept a destiny that isn't one own choosing." Both Byleth and Edelgard has a problem that forces them not to be human but as be give a destiny not of one own choosing. Byleth by birth due to Rhea plans of being back Sothis in turn causing them not to feel emotions until Jeralt death. Byleth destiny is in someway become some form of leader over Fódlan. To be this "Messiah" like figure. Byleth never gets any form of say or agency outside of CF and 3Hopes. They never get a choice to be who they want to be in their life. Through, siding with Edelgard, they get back their freewill, their choice in life and after the war, they are bound by no goddess or society and are free to be who they want to be and feel emotion. To have a beating heart. So yeah, in Shez and Byleth case, making them the Avatar rather then your normal protagonist retroactively damaged their characters.
That's not the intended character arc for Byleth at all. According to the developer's interview at Nintendo, the first route written was Silver Snow, and the lore and worldbuilding as well as the overall characters descriptions were made with that route in mind. Also, the director initially wanted CF to be much more of a secret, hard to access branch route, and the internal files datamine says it was the last route to be created (hence why it's shorter and has a lower budget, they probably reached the deadlines and couldn't even finish Jeritza on time) but people at Koei Tecmo begged him to make CF easier to choose, so at the finished product you only have to talk to Edelgard at a certain date after reaching a certain support level, but during the beta test it was much harder. The devs also said the drama and tragedy of having to kill your former student Edelgard was the emotional core and theme of the game. So, Byleth becoming head of the church is their intented character arc from the very beginning. But I can't blame people for getting the wrong idea, it would be much easier to understand if they allowed Byleth to talk.
I haven't played 3hopes so I'll take your word, but Byleth is a bad character *all around* , in Three Houses. They are written to be bland on purpose for self insert reasons and they even give some story explanations for why, but it never really changes the fact that they have a slightly lower level of undeserved protagonist worship as Alear. Almost everybody instantly falls in love with this seemingly unemotive person who just showed up and they very quickly become the most popular teacher in the academy by doing nothing but their job. I'd be more believable if it was revealed all the characters liked Byleth because they thought that Byleth is really hot. Even the developers must have realized how bland Byleth is, because past white clouds they are removed from the main character position and they just become an accessory to whatever lord they chose at the beginning of the game. Most peoples favorite part of the game isn't white clouds for a reason. Even in SS, VW, AM, or CF, Byleth still suffers, I'll use CF as an example since you touched on it. CF tries to sell the idea of Byleth reclaiming their free will and humanity but it doesn't work because Byleth has all ways had both of those things. Never has Byleth's agency not been theirs, even with a crest stone heart and Sothis in their head they have always made their own decisions. Byleth was also never born to be a messiah figure because the crest stone ending up in Byleth's heart was a decision by Sitri to save them, not for any future plans. Rhea tried to take advantage of this by attempting to have sothis take over Byleth, once she learned that Byleth did have sothis's power, but her plan failed. The goddess nor society has *never* bound Byleth to do anything, Byleth definitely has pressure from Rhea, but it's ultimately Byleth's choice to listen or not. Pressure or expectations don't remove agency. You say Byleth never has any agency or say besides CF but that's just not true. Was it not Byleths choice to help Claude realize his dream? Was it not Byleth's choice to help Dimitri when he was loosing himself? Is it not Byleth's choice whether or not he marries somebody at the end of Silver Snow? If it wasn't their choice then who's choice was it? Because it definitely isn't Sothis. There's potential in your idea but the game it doesn't have the balls to actually deliver. It would be compelling if we got moments where Sothis would take over Byleth and do things without their permission, things Byleth doesn't want to do, but that never happens, even after they merge together. So when Byleth's heart starts beating again after killing Rhea, it's a neat moment but it ultimately means nothing, Byleth is still the same person they were before, beating heart or not. Symbolism is the idea here, but for symbolism to work the character writing needs to be up to par, which in the case of Byleth it is not. Symbolism can't save shoddy writing. In conclusion, IS tried to sell a silent self insert protagonist who is also a character. The result is a character that failed at all of the above, *especially* the character part. Robin was a bad self insert, but at least he was a charismatic character, I hope they go back to that.
I am of the opposite mindset. What makes each avatar unique IS their personalities: flaws and all. While being self inserts, Robin feels completely different from Corrin, Corrin from Byleth. There themes and character arcs. So on so so forth. You wouldn’t get that same feeling from a full blank slate self avatar. Especially if the options aren’t there to really build that avatar in depth. While the personalites do range in relatability and effectiveness, each game still has a level of choice that has only expanded with recent releases. So there is still a level of immersion with the game itself and these avatars. If the options were there I could see a blank slate avatar working but it would def take away from cutscenes and story nuances.
@@ryuuteix797 I personally prefer what CF does with Byleth. _ Byleth instead getting a role foisted on him by Rhea and others gets to live completely different lives depending on their partners. Fits well with CF's themes
If they just improved on Robin by actually making the PC insert just another recruitable unit instead of a main protagonist, that would be a better option if they didn't want to go full RPG (which I feel they should instead of being lazy, sterile, and corporate by half @&sing it). Though if they wanted to make the PC a protagonist, a fun plot twist would be if there was a secret route where the main protagonists died due to a choice that results in your PC becoming the protagonist and full on necromancer that continues the war with the corpses of the fallen. So two options: 1. Like many RPGs with set characters, a mercenary mechanic where you can build custom units that are more or less background characters. 2. Else go full RPG where there is a protagonist, but the insert is fully fleshed out with meaningful alternate dialogue based on the personality traits you chose for your character during creation like you would see in interactive fiction and old school rpgs.
I think that people tend to reeally hate on Kris because you can not romance any girl nor guy as F!Kris, because even if Kris isn't that fleshed out as a character he is still a separate character by itself that has its own original story (the gaiden chapters and their story with Katarina) and not necesarily just an avatar, and contrary to what many people say, he isn't the center of the universe in FE12 because he is just "that awesome" or "he is the guy that did all the hard work!, not Marth". Most people that say that kind of stuff didn't play the game nor payed any real attention to the game's story which saddens me, FE12 may be a remake and not have Echoes level of writting but it still has a good writting with the new characters added in.
honestly i don't know why Citra was lagging so bad, my PC is definitely beefy enough to handle it, and Fates runs just fine. Seems like it's a problem I'm having with Awakening specifically.
I am surprised you didn't touch on how Engage's DLC literally implies the world just ends beyond redemption if Alear dies, to show how absurd the avatar worship becomes.
I think your last section really struck a chord with me. The only game I’ve ever tried customizing the avatar is in awakening, which was my first fire emblem game. After it was completely obvious that literally nothing about the “avatar” reflects the player other than their name and how they look (sometimes), I just forego customizing avatars entirely now. I vastly prefer just keeping the default name and look, as it just makes them another character disconnected from my identity. I never resonated with any of the self insert stuff, and as such I greatly prefer the games without the avatar being a self insert. IMO, fire emblem should either just remove avatars to allow fully fleshed out characters to take the spotlight again, or fully commit to an avatar by allowing them to be shaped by the player’s actions and decisions.
Funny story, when I was taking writing classes in college. I really started to learn about cliches and predicting plot points just from the writing alone. I mention this because one of the most DUMBEST moments that made me feel like a super genius at the time happened in Fire Emblem Revelations. Your mother in that game literally tells you to choose between the red door and the blue door and instructs you to go through the blue door because it's safe. I had already caught on to Fates bullshit by this point and thought "This seems like a trap. Fuck it, I'll pick the red door, what do I have to lose." I picked the red door which was the one without enemies (sometimes a character instructing you to pick the door that is colored to represent danger makes these traps more obvious) and you mother is just like "WHHHAT? HOW DID YOU KNOOOW!?" And Corrin gives her a monologue on how it was CLEARLY OBVIOUS as I sat there on my bed in shock over the dumbest thing I have ever seen in a fire emblem game... No, that's not true. Corrin allowing herself to trust a random child IN THE CLEARLY EVIL RELM and follow him alone into a temple only to get ambushed by him immediately...is the dumbest thing I have seen in a fire emblem game, period. I could right a five to eight page essay of why the writing for that very concept is stupid and dumb and makes Corrin look incompetent in every way.
@@AzumarillConGafasBv *Minor spelling mistake, argument invalidated.* - Capitalizes the second word in a sentence that is not a name, place or title. - Does not use periods. - Places an asterisk incorrectly at the end of a sentence and does not use it to reference or make note of something that was omitted from a text... But ok, you do you bro.
@@binxthebinx6575 The Reason for Fate's sloppy story, is because the writers where trying to achieve too much with not enough time. Intelligent Systems had an idea for Fate to have three stories to appeal to everyone, but they realized that they didn't have enough writers. So they hired an outside writer, Shin Kibayashi was that writer. Intelligent Systems wanted Shin to write the outline for each pathway, what happened instead is that Shin wrote 500 pages for each pathway. Intelligent Systems knew this was too long so they cut the story into pieces without the writers permission and the fact the Nintendo demanded Fates come on the Fire Emblem Anniversary only made things worse. Which resulted in this hilariously mess of a story. The good news this that there is a manga based on Fates that is a little better. Its called Fire Emblem If: the Crown of Niberlung.
I agree with basically everything you have to say here and I'm glad to see someone make a well articulated video about it. Hell, I'd probably have lambasted the FE12-14 avatars even more, myself. However I do have to say, given how they're actually made use of by the game, I basically don't even consider Alear an avatar. They are already a distinct (if fairly typical for a protagonist) character: they have informed opinions on their world, they cry, have trouble accepting certain things, have stated likes and dislikes, and even in chapter 5 straight up tells the boss to 'prepare to die' which is far more than Robin, Corrin, and Byleth ever got to do. I do still agree that the character is nothing but held back by being able to be renamed, but at least unlike Robin and Corrin who are milquetoast and boring cardboard cutouts for other characters to Talk At, Alear does actually exist in the world as an individual. Whether they're for any given person is neither here nor there, but I appreciated that about them by comparison. Even if Engage's story writing isn't complex or deep, it's earnestly committed to its tone and very basic 'Red and Blue/Bad and Good' themeing and Alear does work within that, I feel. It might be 'cringe' but it's free and I'd vastly prefer that to a game that constantly nudges the player in the ribs like "look how GOOFY and RIDICULOUS this is". Still want a completely unchangeable by the player main character again, though. Shez and Alear may as well be their own characters, but I still want a truly distinct from the player character.
Even though avatars have largely had a detrimental effect on the stories they’re in just because they HAVE to be the center at least SOME attention, I still really like the idea of having a something like a deuteragonist like Robin or Byleth that acts as the eyes of the player. They aren’t THE main character, and they wouldn’t necessarily be customizable, even down to their name, but if you were to have a hub area like the academy from 3H, you’re exploring and setting things up AS those characters; they’re the eyes you see the world from. Then again, Shez from Three Hopes is the closest to that, I think. You can still customize their gender and name but Shez has more personality than Byleth had, since Byleth’s personality was mostly that they didn’t have much to speak of. But at the same time, Shez has their own goals, and still stands shoulder to shoulder with the house leaders. At least, that last bit is the feeling I got from what of Three Hopes I’ve played through.
Yes yes yes all of this, so glad that someone else was passionate enough about this to make a video essay about it, cuz I was never gonna do it :p I want a new Fire Emblem without an avatar character so bad, remakes are great and all but we can only get a shadows of valentia so many times before they run out of avatarless games to remake
It is so funny how many Alts Byleth and Robin get in FE Heroes when they are not even characters at all. The shop NPCs in Tellius are more of a character than those 2. Corrin at least is a distinctive character even if it can be pretty frustrating at times with the things he/she tries to do in the story. I still think me yelling "Corrin what the fuck are you thinking you idiot" at least makes them memorable vs the By and Robin who just kind of exist.
I agree that avatar characters are a poorly implemented and half-assed feature, but I think you're underselling Robin and Byleth a bit. Due to how those two games work, it matters that they're an avatar even if you don't get to make too many choices and it comes down to interactions with the rest of the cast. As you said, Chrom and Lucina could be just another protagonist and deuteragonist in the story, but they could also be your family. That's a huge difference in dynamics that only happens if you're a woman and choose to marry Chrom out of all the options (unless you get roped into it by game mechanics). Even if you don't marry Chrom, you'll still get one or two second generation characters who are your children and fight alongside you, entirely from the choices you make outside of the main plot. Similarly, in 3H you play as a teacher and your units are mostly your students. How they grow and change is something you influence in-world, and you also get to choose which other units to add to your roster who can accept or refuse depending on how you've been spending your time, even if that only comes down to stats. Even the choice of which side you pick alters the world, as it becomes evident from multiple playthroughs that the you are what's keeping the three protagonists from breaking under pressure and becoming murderers, tyrants, or older Claudes. These things don't matter if you think about what these characters did "in-canon" or from the future like in Engage or Heroes, but in the self-contained playthroughs that the games are, they matter.
Really nice video dude! Modern fire emblem sure is a piece of work we love for the right and wrong reasons! However a small correction: awakening wasn't the first fire emblem to have marriage as a core mechanic in the series, that title actually goes for fire emblem genealogy of the holy war! This is relevant because genealogy is supposedly the next game in the list of fire emblem game remakes, and one that can get an avatar character shoehorned in. I will assume you dont know the story of fe4 but a perfect avatar player character would completely undermine the darker tones and messed up world of jugdral. But even if that happens, I will probably make a female avatar just so arden can have the best perfect overpowered wife avatar for him.
Great video! I got a real chuckle out of hearing you lambaste Corrin (who is a genuinely irritating character for the exact reasons you mention). I genuinely could not bring myself to finish Engage--as you say, it's incredibly cringe, but cringe is the one flavor of bad that I've never been able to enjoy ironically. Plus, its mechanics and map design don't reach the heights of Conquest in a way where it can counterbalance the ensconcing narrative. Tbh, Engage's writing is so horrendously bad even without issues connnected to the avatar that I genuinely doubt IS's ability to do better in the future.
@@SodaCrab i mean isn't engage a spin off? you summon OTHER FE characters into the game to boost/buff the mc? but lets say for simplicity sake it wasn't would you have it fall under the "avatar problem"?
@@SodaCrab It's a spin-off, sure -- but if this video is all about Avatars, and a game has lore about TWO Avatars, shouldn't you at least have googled it?
Personally, since Byleth is so quiet, I view them more as an Avatar, while Alear is a customizable protagonist. I mean, if we had FE1's Marth, and could rename Marth and change their gender, but keep everything else the same, would that be an "Avatar"? Alear IS a character. How well written/good they is debatable, but you as the player, never get to make any choices. It is always Alear.
Video was fun, but I completely disagree about them not being true self inserts. A self insert doesn't mean some super customizable RPG protagonist. Kirito (SAO) is a self insert and he's from an anime with no player input period. A self insert is just a character designed for the intended audience to see themselves as, usually through some sort of power fantasy. With that in mind, I think more or less all of them are self inserts, somehow with Alier being perhaps the least so.
I am sorry cute little crab, you couldn't escape the "blood lines" of FE14... As that guy, who grew up on Gaiden, yes, I hope that the Genealogy remake is Avatar free. Or that if they have one, it's more, complimentary, like Kris. If they NEED one.
Honourable mention to Shez from Three Hopes for basically just being a renameable character, and also making Byleth not be silent
Real talk, I 100% forgot Shez and Three Hopes as a whole existed
Love Shez! I really wish Byleth had a voice in Three Houses, because Shez not being silent definitely helped my enjoyment of the character
Honestly I even wish they removed the little dialogue options, I’d rather they just write a character. I don’t like it idk!
Shez felt like a return to form for an avatar character. They're narratively along for the ride and not the center of everything, while still being a part of it. And both designs felt more grounded than whatever femByleth had.
Shez is so so goated, by far my favorite avatar. They barely feel like an avatar and that’s why I love them
It’s a damn shame that shez becomes sombron or in this case sombron is a clone of shez
The moment you couldn't customize the physical appearance of your character like in Awakening and Fates was the moment trying to have an avatar character didn't make sense anymore
oh man! I really liked this video. I wonder if other people like this video! Let me go into the comments and see what people with EXTREMELY NORMAL NAMES have to say on the topic of this video!
Tell that to the Zelda fans.
@@FireFury190 for the longest time i thought that Zelda was the character that we played as until i found out the name was Link 😅
I’ll be real, personally I think that was to serve as a happy medium for those that didn’t want an avatar. I remember when fates came out how many people wrecked on Corrin.
@@shaktra1563 That's the WORST of both worlds though! Being able to actually make your character custom in looks is one of the few reasons you can argue that there's a reason to not just call your character the default name!
One of the most disappointing aspects of Three Houses is that Byleth could’ve been a great secondary protagonist if he was allowed to speak. The idea of an emotionless and coldblooded mercenary being thrust into a mentor position, needing to guide young minds along the right path, slowly becoming attached to them over the course of the year could’ve been powerful. It would’ve made even the darkest and most impactful moments in Three House so much better, and it would’ve cemented him as truly irreplaceable in the game.
Agreed. The emotionless Ashen Demon is a great character setup, but other characters don't treat him as such. I actually have a soft spot for Leonie's B support. It's hideously timed, but it was nice to meet someone who didn't think Byleth was the greatest person ever, even if it was for a dumb reason.
@@bificommander7472 I agree with you about Leonie’s B support, and I feel like many other supports had great potential if Byleth could speak. Marianne’s A, Felix’s A, Ferdinand’s A, even the entirety of Ingrid’s and Annette’s supports are great examples of Byleth being a supportive teacher. All the Ashen Wolves, the 3 Lords, Hanamane, almost every character has one or more fantastic supports with Byleth. Given a bit more liberty, Byleth could’ve developed these characters, and himself, even further than ever.
EXACTLY!
holy shit, that might actually have made the story engaging.
I agree, one example is the end of part 1 of the black eagles ; when dimitri learns edelgard is the flame emperor he snaps, when Byleth learns the girl they fought side by side worked with people that killed their father (to their understanding at that point in the story) he just has that little shocked face and says nothing. same thing when you make the choice to betray either the church or edelgard (especially since all of this happens after the death of Jeralt where Byleth expresses emotions). voice the character, or give us more lines to say than just "answer a" and "answer a number 2"
the god shattering star incest bit for fates had me actually cackling
So well timed. Probably the best joke of the video.
I like the idea of Byleth, bc being a professor would naturally entail that you’d need an avatar character to teach all the students, but them being silent (even though they talk CONSTANTLY in canon) among a fully-voiced cast, yet still having a personality under there that you have to dig for, is kinda wacko. And I do love the explanation for why they’re silent, but that could’ve just been an explanation for why they’re so stoic. Oh WAIT, but it is!! The game says Byleth is outwardly emotionless bc of the heart transplant thing. The devs could’ve just stopped there and made Byleth voiced, but just *not* have them be very excitable in the delivery of the lines. Three Hopes makes Byleth SUCH a better character
even in three hopes byleth is a mediocre character
byleth is good in theory, and especially in three hopes, but the whole thing about them being lifeless but eventually growing out of it is not shown in either game, in three houses because they're always voiceless and emotionless because avatar, and in three hopes because they get basically two seconds of screen time unless you mess up and make them go angry mode
@@mihaimercenarul7467he said better not necessarily meaning good.
But he definitely was an improvement in 3hopes
@@mihaimercenarul7467 1 is better than 0
@@danelo13 Not always as zero has infinite possibilities, but in this case yes.
5:45 "awakening was the first game to introduce marriage as a mechanic"
FE4 fans: 💀
Genealogy is actually a lie being fed to Fire Emblem fans by the government, it's all a psyop, it was never real, it doesn't exist
@@SodaCrab thank god thracia 776 is still real!
@@dimik6745 Ah, but that's where you're mistaken. This is a commonly held misconception. We actually only have 17 Fire Emblem games, so we're still 759 games away from 776!
I am Mark. You are Mark. We are all Mark. Mark is love.
I think I just found a hidden gem TH-camr.
Same
One other thing that I dislike about Fire Emblem avatars is that they’re all so tame. They can’t have a whole lot going on personality-wise to not risk having the player hate the avatar, which would defeat the entire purpose of them.
Meanwhile the writers have a lot more freedom when writing the side characters, who can be much more fun and relatable to specific people, because not everyone needs to not hate them.
Honestly, I like the Mark/Robin (and to a lesser extent Byleth) approach. In FE, you're making a lot of decisions. It's just that practically all of them are tactical decisions in battle. So having a self-insert character who is responsible for the tactical decisions in battle, and NOT the inflexible decisions of the plot, makes sense to me. Whereas a character like Corrin/Alear feels wierd, cuz their role as protagonist in a fixed-plot story fights with their role as a self-insert: Corrin listens to the player on the battlefield, and ignores their desires everywhere else.
That's why i like mark. You are the tactician nothing more, the lords are the protagonist and make the important decisions in the plot. feels nice that time to time they acknowledge your existence and are grateful for your work
"Would you exchange a walk-on part in a war, for a lead role in a cage?"
- Mark
That's not Robin, he's more plot centeric than the Lord in awakening.
@coldeed Yeah, he is more plot centric, but would that have mattered if he wasn't written as a self-insert? Honestly, if they hadn't made the self-insert concessions that he can't choose to do anything bad, everyone has to love him, and he was the most broken character in the game, then I think the story would've had the potential to be considered one of Fire Emblem's greats. I mean the story of an enemy planting a traitor into the main lord's army and the main lord being betrayed by his best friend but not realizing who that is until shortly before it happens could've been written to be one of the more dramatic Fire Emblem stories. Awakening just got hampered by the power fantasy and self-indulgency that the creators decided to put into the game
@coldeed Robin is significant to the plot. He's also Crom's subordinate.
I'm not arguing that self-inserts should be irrelevant. I'm arguing that self-inserts should have the same limits to their freedom that the player does. For Fire Emblem, that means tactical freedom, but no meaningful influence on strategic/policy decisions.
That's why Robin works so well: both you and Robin are put in charge of executing battle plans. The player cannot decide what the party does in-between maps (that'd be too expensive). Robin cannot decide what the party does in-between maps (He's Crom's subordinate). It's not a perfect execution, but it works far, far better than Fates' constant tension between player and protagonist.
I actually like Kris for how funny his whole existence kinda is. He's also a fun unit. Then Robin was relatively well handled but then all the avatars since have really jumped the shark although i do like Byleths backstory and design at least. I admittedly enough enjoy self inserting as avatars but i would really love the next non remake to have a legit main character.
That's the thing though-- the point of Kris is that he doesn't matter. He's literally forgotten by the world's canon.
@@Cypherwraith001 He matters to me dammit
Funny how you get to the same conclussion that I got way back but for different reasons, for me the actual straw that broke the camel's back was Byleth. As I can still name Mark, Robin, and Corrin with those names and convince myself that is isn't supposed to be me. But then Byleth being a Silent protagonist on a game whose one of its strongest perks is that it's fully voice acted just makes me not stand him. Even if I name him Byleth, I can't escape the fact that they are trying to push the "Hey that's you" move for how bland he is.
Actually, Byleth's silent protagonist style is pretty popular in many games, and I think it was probably inspired by the success of Persona, based on the social aspects added. Also, Byleth isn't really without personality; the responses you can make are usually snarky, and he can show a lot of emotion when he wants. It's a part of the plot; he's a traumatized child soldier renowned at a young age for his skills, and his stoicism is a quirk of his birth - Jeralt notes his weird behavior and lack of emotion (hey, he's literally heartless).
@@junkyatv I did like how Byleth actually started to smile a bit into the narrative. It was a nice visual indicator to the player that they were changing. It was sad when they stopped.
But thats... basically it. "The silent protagonist has character, you can pick sarcastic options!" is the absolute most bare minimum you can afford one. Persona 5's Joker has more observable character traits on his pinky finger than Byleth does across their entire game and he's still remarkably one-dimensional.
I think Digimon Cyber Sleuth is one of the more interesting executions of a silent protagonist due to them having fully voiced monologues when no one else is around. This harkens back to Fate Extra, where, while the protagonist never speaks a word, they have a LOT of interesting things to say through being the first-hand narrator of the game. Hakuno is a fully-realized character despite ostensibly being "the player."
The reason Persona's silent protagonists work is also because going to high school is a relatable, almost universal human experience. Being a teacher isn't, and being a tactician in life or death battles definitely isn't. By the end of my Golden Deer run, Claude and Lorenz felt more like the protagonists. Byleth was only there to marry Marianne and fight the battles. And Lorenz was optional, I could have gotten him killed, hell I hated him in the Academy Phase, but his personal growth in the War Phase and his rivalry/friendship with Claude were more engaging than Claude's buddy-buddy attitude toward Byleth.
Three Hopes shows that Byleth does actually speak, quite regularly, they're just cold. It's not that Byleth is silent because they lack a heart, it's the other way around. Byleth lacks a heart in service to explaining why they're silent.
Byleth could have just been a faceless, voiceless vessel to contextualize the player's actions, or a hero who unflinchingly and unquestioningly fights evil, and it would have been fine. But Fire Emblem cannot shake the human experience. It isn't a story about war, it's a story about the people fighting it. The protagonists need a reason to pick up their weapons, and Byleth definitely has them. But those reasons are given so much contrast with their almost absent personality, so much empty room to breathe, that they have nothing to do but suffocate.
oh yeah marriage in 3h where you can marry your grandmother, who is, tecnically your mother and part your father, who is part your grandmother who is part yourself.
the Mark clip from invincible was so random, it made me laugh LMAO
I like th3 way Mark works. I always liked it when i got one of those little asides ftom specific characters on esch map. Felt like they were reacting to what was going on.
I just want a Fire Emblem game where the main character is a real character and there is no avatar.
Give Ike's games the Echo treatment and I'll be more than happy.
I hope they treat every other remake from now on as well as they treated Gaiden with Echoes. It's not a perfect game by any stretch because it was working with a flawed and kind of weird game as a basis, but oh my god it's so well made and well presented. Shadow Dragon and FE12 were fine, but Echoes is on a whole other level.
Theyre def doing fe4 next (and the awakening goons are gonna LOVEEE that)
@@cringekid3993I've actually not played Genealogy yet so I would be down for it! But from what I know about it I am a bit worried they would tone down the more intense themes. As long as they don't change the characters or the designs too much I'd be open to it.
@@KiT584 I recommend Unicorn Overlord, its strategy RPG published by Sega.
The idea of forcing an Avatar into Genealogy is legitimately hilarious to me considering the actual plot of that game. It would be an absolutely awful inclusion but a part of me really wants to see them try to do it anyway.
Especially if you can somehow give them Holy Blood.
Please don’t say that 😭😭
If they do, i am making a female avatar with the best stats possible and marrying her to Arden, because my man deserves it.
lmao they'd see Sigurd falling for his half-sister and wonder what kind of hell they fell into
@@CoqueiroLendario He’s strong and he’s tough!
Good vid overall, but I would like to put in a small addendum that Bopper pointed out. Corrin isn't poorly written because they're naive and make bad decisions. Character flaws are necessary to good writing. That's why I think you went too easy on Robin, he's actually flawless in the context of the game, just a pure beacon of virtue and good. Corrin is poorly written because they're never punished.for it. No matter what route you take, every sympathetic character takes time to assure you that you're completely right and perfect.
Good lord, compare that to the Tellius games. The trusting characters are actually manipulated into doing things that they realize are horrible, and even the characters in the moral right understand that the war they're fighting has no purpose but to further the aims of evil people. Modern Fire Emblem could never.
@@Cypherwraith001 I recommend Unicorn Overlord, its strategy RPG published by Sega.
Robin is definitely the best one since they have their own identity without feeling like they are stepping too much into the self-insert role.
Unfortunately, gameplay wise he's definetely the worst one. He's so good the most effective way to play Awakening is to think less and let him and Crom solo the entire game. Effective. Think Less. Strategy Game. Those words shouldn't go together
@@davialmeida4442Thats not an issue with Robin moreso the balancing of the game no?
@@davialmeida4442 Yea, no. any unit can pretty much be able to break the game with enough grinding. Half of my team comprises of being uber powerful.
Robin is the worst example. Nothing entertaining about them, shitty iskeai fantasy bullshit that steals the plot. I hope we never get anything like that again, I wish he never happened.
Yeah, honestly, Robin would be the best one if he was just allowed to fully be a character. I like the idea of a story about a character who is used as a plant in the lord's army and will eventually betray him, and the characters realizing this as the story progresses. Unfortunately, the self-insert writing does hamper Robin's quality and the overall story writing is unfortunately tarnished by just how hard they push Robin. They should've just canonized Chrom's relationship with Sumia, and slowly progressed Robin into being his right-hand man and best friend. The relationship was a bit too quick and it would've been more interesting if Lucina had come back in time to warn of Chrom being betrayed by his best friend and there not being an obvious answer until late into the story where it became obvious that Robin and him had become true best friends, and an awkward moment where Chrom said Robin was his best friend and they both turned to each other realizing what that meant. The overall plot should've been their story, and I don't mind it starting as a Chrom story and then quickly becoming a Robin Story by mid to late game, but it would've been good if the final few chapters really did feel more like "their" story as opposed to a Robin story with Chrom backing him up.
I think Robin was the closest to getting a self-insert that was still a real character, but they just pushed the self-insert concessions into the gameplay and story a bit too much
You are the type of channel that I love to share around. Good delivery, fun , seems well informed (I really don't know about FE) and captivating in a topic I shouldn't care
Niche content like this really make up the backbone of youtube sometimes.
Yeah the video is really entertaining even though I only played one game from this series briefly and know very little about it going in
After engage was... engage, I'm genuinely wondering if the next FE overcompensates in the other direction and half the supports are your allies talking about how much they fucking hate you. Would at least be a change of pace lol
Funnily enough, Frederick, Takumi and Hubert were dislikes early on for (rightfully) not trusting you so openly compared to everyone else.
I want the Valentia video! I just finished playing it and loved it! One thing I really appreciate about it is how simple it is because FE games can often feel like decision fatigue simulators.
Whats really funny about Alear is throughout the game every single time someone worships her she gets increasingly uncomfortable, since from her point of view she just woke up and got placed in a position of power. The problem i have is the game presents two aspects of Alear that they never fully push, the first being fell dragon Alear who's whole demeanor is extremely different to the Alear we've come to know as their more violent and unhinged pre Lumera. And then Alear the coward who's afraid to fight but is constantly forced into situations because her believers need her to step into her mothers shoes.
Wish they expanded on her character much more.
I feel like violent and unhinged aren‘t adjectives I would use for past Alear, more scared of expressing any emotion.
@@tirex3673true my bad was goin off the wicked smile from the Flashback and not the actual story. I did still want to see more of that Alear tho, maybe have her slowly go back to being her old self as the game progresses as she's forced into more fights she really doesn't wanna be in making her close herself off again. It's a shame cuz I really like Alear but I think outside of support convos she's done dirty
@infinitezion2029 I understand, though I don't think Alear would ever revert to who they were before they met Lumera. The one bit of weirdness here is more after that, as Alear seems to have grown up, while asleep, considering, who they were, when they fell. (Though tbf, not having this happen might have resulted in Alear turning into an even more naive Fates!Corrin, and that would have been a terrible idea.)
However, I love past Alear, so much, that it makes up for the bonkers justification for their most notable appearance, and wish, we got to see more of their journey, instead of just two snapshots. Small part of me wishes this was the actual plot of engage, but that would have been a much darker story (even if it does have a happy ending), which would have been difficult to tell in the framework of a fire emblem game. I think, a more realistic approach would be either SoV style memory prisms, or some kind of set of paralogues, where Alear starts remembering.
Apparently Nintendo forced IS to “tone down” Alear’s cowardliness because it would make them “less relatable”.
Saw two of your videos (this and the problem with nuzlockes) and both of them were genuinely bangers. I really like how you write your scripts! Can’t wait to see this channel grow.
About Mark, there were totally people who wished they actually had more importance back when Path or Radiance wasn't even out. People liked to fantasize about them being a unit you had to keep alive, that could fight back, and that even had supports with some characters, along with all the benefits that would bring. Of course, that was just a pipedream back then, but I feel it's important to point out because "Mark" definitely sowed the seeds for the fanbase to want the Avatar idea to be revisited later down the line, which it eventually did with FE12 and then Awakening. In Awakening in particular, Morgan (Robin's child) is called Mark in Japan, and in the DLC, Lyn asks you, the player, if you are "Mark", solidifying this connection , as tenuous as it may be.
It should be noted that while Kris wasn't popular, it might simply have to do with the fact you couldn't ship them with anyone. When Awakening was announced to have an Avatar AND that you can marry them with someone of your choice, people were far more into the idea of "self-insert yourself into the story", so much so that Awakening had new lesbian and gay fans onboard (given that advertisements said that "you can marry anyone you want!") ...only to get the rug pulled out from under them when it turns out you can only marry anyone from the opposite gender. It took until Engage for the series to finally just let players marry whomever they want. Or, er, sorta marry, in some cases, I guess. It's the thought that counts.
It's also important to note some of the more frustrating similar components of the Avatars since Awakening: namely, the fact they are either an analogue for Jesus, God, or Satan (or a combination of those).
Not to get into specific spoilers, but:
Robin -> Satan
Corrin -> Jesus
Byleth -> God
Shez -> Satan
Alear -> God and Jesus? A little bit of Satan, too, I think.
(Kiran's the only exception so far.)
Essentially, the Avatars are, by design, pivotal to the story as a plot device, as opposed to just being a soldier of the army, or a "mere" Lord, which would require a personality to be memorable.
Some people argue that the Avatars would be better if they could just be their own character, and some go beyond that and argue that they ARE their own character, but the "gotcha" here is that most of the fans of the Avatars specifically like them *because* of all the advantages that comes from pretending they are said Avatar: the shipping, power fantasy and everything else.
So, if we were to actually make the Avatars their own character, I'm quite positive that many "fans" of those Avatars (as a character) wouldn't like them nearly as much, because then they'd by design become an obstacle for the Avatar fantasy that made them love them in the first place. It's harder to support, say, Robin X Lucina when you're not "Robin"...also, since Robin wouldn't be an Avatar anymore, that means they would lose the "Gen1 unit that can marry Gen2 units" privilege, so it wouldn't even be possible to do that ship anyway.
Essentially, what I'm trying to say is that, some people are completely fine with Avatars as a mechanic (along with marriage), because that's the entire reason they got into Fire Emblem in the first place. That they pretend that the Avatar can be curbed in gameplay and story is foolish, when the very design they keep arguing must stay is damaging those very aspects of the games. At least what they're trying to do with it as it is. It's not impossible to make it work, but they'd have to change the design of the games a great deal for it to *potentially* work, and I imagine they'd rather play it safe.
Now, I want to step back a bit and state that, honestly...you can make an argument that Marth, Alm, Roy and PoR Ike are all very much "proto-Avatar"-ish, in that they are ridiculously young teens who essentially solve every problem the world has, and you the player are expected to act as if you are them, in a sense. At the very least, they are the audience surrogate. Ike is actually really good for a protagonist in PoR, but in RD the story bends over to make sure every action he does solves everything, not unlike the way the story is handled with an Avatar character.
Alm is a bit of a special case, since he technically shares spotlight, but Celica is literally...well, not to get into specific spoilers, but the story sure as hell makes sure to tell the player that she's in the wrong, and that everything Alm does basically solves everything, even when he doesn't know it will.
I think the original director, Kaga, understood this was a bit of a mistake storywise, back when FE2 was on the Famicom, because FE4's Sigurd tries to pull off the same strategy (Step 1: Go to war with whoever is doing bad stuff. Step 2: Win! Step 3: ??? Step 4: Peace!), and it bites him in the ass, hard.
Anyway, the point I'm making here is that Fire Emblem is no stranger at making the protagonist the center of the universe, and we Westerners got lucky we started with Blazing Blade, which had a story shared between 3 Lords (FE8 also had 2 Lords, but it sure likes pretending Ephraim can do no wrong...).
When we look at the big picture, it's clear IS is taking advantage of the new audience introduced in Awakening and Three Houses by "pretending" the main character is an Avatar for them to use as a vehicle for the fantasies, only for said Avatar to be written into the linear story and as if they're a character like Roy or Marth.
And, honestly, I can't say for sure I'd prefer them to go back to pre-Awakening style main characters, because I have a feeling if they did, girls would have significantly less opportunity to have a main character sharing their gender. Just a hunch.
I really would like them to try making a story with an actual Avatar character with a malleable personality and them only technically being part of the army . like Kris was to Marth's, though. Just don't enforce them being BFFs with the main Lord in the story. Bonus points if they don't get to interact with the Lord at all, and have to be put into these ridiculous map scenarios that makes you wonder who the hell they're serving and if they crazy.
I disagree on Alm.
Everything turned out okay in the end, but I don't think it's the intent of the story to say that Alm was entirely correct to invade rigel the way he did. It resulted in him killing the last of his family, and the story makes it a point that Alm is permanently hurt by this, probably to act as some sort of narrative consequence for his actions.
@@Liezuli If this is about his father, he actually planned to be killed by Alm, so how much it hurts Alm in the end doesn't really matter (nor is it elaborated upon) because it's ultimately "part of the plan" and saved more lives than if he had been as treacherous or power hungry as Desaix or Slade were. Thus, regardless of how much it hurts Alm, it's not a bad thing in the way, say, Est can die and leave her sisters Palla and Catria in mourning.
If this is about Berkut, well, that's a whole can of worms, but Alm really had no reason to like Berkut at all, given how much of an egotistical jerk he was. The fact Alm actually stated he wanted to befriend him simply because he was related by blood to him is actually laughable, because it contradicts the underlying message that Echoes was trying to deliver: that blood, no matter what, shouldn't be reason to give preference to people. Alm (as the player) can save Mathilda, Delthea, Tatiana and Zeke despite the fact they aren't related to him at all, because ultimately they're all good people trapped by villains, and his righteous sense of justice compels him to save them.
Not that Berkut was completely unlikeable: Rudolf had screwed him over in a rather improper way, but Alm had no way of knowing such things until he was literally being told he was going to be Emperor. And we all know how Berkut felt about that.
An actual character that would have hurt Alm on a personal level if he had to kill them would be Mycen: he's practically Alm's (and most of his friends') grandfather, there's potential for Mycen to be forced into that position (some villain either mind-controls him, or he's forced to take command of a small army for Rigel at the behest of a corrupt officer) and the player would have no doubt some connection to him as well given they at least controlled Mycen at the prologue. Not to say the plot would be better for it, just that Rudolf and Berkut dying as Alm invaded Rigel really didn't hurt Alm as much as the cinematics implied it would or should.
It's probably why they tried to one-up both of those deaths by having him "kill" Celica, but we all know how much that stuck.
To top it all off, in-gameplay, Gaiden/Echoes has statues that revive people, so death is actually a little cheaper in that game by design. Gaiden's story didn't acknowledge them but it had a pass because it never really made that much of a big deal of Alm and Celica's personalities, but Echoes' cutscenes combined with its insistence to leave the gameplay maps and mechanics untouched made them a bit of an awkward plot hole in a title that tries to treat death more seriously.
@@WhitehawkePAUNCH Even though, it was all part of Rudolf's plan, Alm still got duped into it, and he's never okay with it after the fact, multiple times lamenting that he never got to know his father, and telling Mycen in his support that he should've told him the truth. And there's absolutely nothing that suggests it was the best, or only, way that Valentia could've been saved. It's just the one that ended up happening.
I'm not trying to say that the story couldn't have handled it better, actually, I think there's a lot that could've been done better.
I'm only saying that, regardless of how well it was done, it's not the intent of the story to say that Alm was right about everything.
In Fates you can marry Ratharja (or whatever she's called) and Niles, though both are very stereotypical gay and sometimes offensive to some LGBTQ peeps
What you said about the avatar characters “conforming to the player” is really well said.
Fire emblem: why are chess pieces sexy?
Great video I mostly agree with! It is a shame that Avatars have been super popular but I feel like they have been less and less popular every subsequent release. I cannot even think of any enage fans who think alear is a pinnacle character but that is just my experience. One thing I wanted to add that is not really related to the video is at 4:37 when people attribute Awakening to being more "Anime" than previous releases. I very much diagree with this sentiment because Fire emblem has always been anime. If you compare the tropes of most anime in 2005 with path of radiance you will find that path of radiance is about as similar to them as engage is to modern day anime. FE changes with trends in anime and other gaming trends and I hope those trends will eventually step away from avatar like characters
I think I should've been a little more specific about the anime comparison, because I'm well aware that Fire Emblem has always been anime. I think what makes Awakening and onwards feel more "anime" is that it feels like a different kind of anime. The way I judge anime and anime-adjacent things is with my patented Dad Test; how embarrassed would I be if was watching this on the big screen at my parents' house with my dad in the room? I would regularly play FE7 and 8 on Wii U in the living room as a teenager, never felt an ounce of embarrassment. If I went back home and played Engage, I would probably pass away on the spot from embarrassment immediately following "RISE FROM A THOUSAND YEARS AGOOOO"
Byleth and Alear are funny; because they remind me to renameable protagonists that are other wise pretty much unchanged character-wise from other Adventure and/or RPG games, characters like Link, Crono, Cloud, the many versions of the Eirdrick title, and the like, but with one very big difference... You can actually make The Hero a woman.
And I think seeing the characters in that way, changes quite a bit our perception of them I believe... They're really suppose to be "The Hero" instead of "The Avatar" now.
The Hero potentially be a woman has it's own appeal, because it allows a female protagonist to play with dynamics that normally aren't possible because that character is expected to be a man, even when they're re-nameable, specially when they aren't.
A female protagonist can't just exist like a male protagonist does, she has to be explained and justified, but that isn't really the case with the Fire Emblem Avatars/Heroes.
It's such a shame since Robin and sometimes corrin actually have decent supports with other characters. Like Robin and Cordelia (a pretty good one) and the fact that Lucina and F robins support is pretty funny
But we never get to see the characters develop past certain points because SPOILERS x character made a choice that was dependent on the way the player wanted to go down. Hell it even happens to shez but he barely effects the story aside from "I'm on this side now for some reason" and he does have his own character and funny supports. He's like the straightman to all the characters weird antics like Lysithea being all angry she was called young.
I agree. They should just make the avatars their own character. Alear is Alear, Shez is Shez, Robin is Robin and so on. The writing is literally the same for the characters except maybe they have to say S/he depending on gender. But like overall they can actually say their own name outside of heroes or emblem rings.
Okay okay take my sub already, geez. Pushing that good content down my throat until i can't anymore
Sexual
What are the odds of just finding an amazing channel, subscribing and seeing a new upload a few minutes later? Dr. Doodles' journey inspired me to challenge myself to use Pokemon, and this shall be my background video
I'm glad Dr. Doodle is still inspiring people to this day, he's a true hero
I just found the nuzlock vids and now this? Perfect!
I felt that too, got recommended the Problem With Nuzlockes video yesterday and then this dropped. Love to see it
i think most people nowadays enjoy self-inserting into media in general, its nice for most people to escape their "boring" life to be a leader in magical medieval warfare. some games lean into this escapist aspect such as stardew valley (obviously a different genre). the trouble is now audiences struggle to squeeze themself into a character that they didn't make.
although problematically, fire emblem has lackluster character customisation so they're in an awkward space where they're too afraid to pick a side and the protagonist thus becomes something you cannot insert into nor a fleshed out interesting character, which just makes for bad storytelling built on the foundation of a boring protagonist.
Mark is a better character than most avatars because he doesn't fuck the story for the sake of existing.
Teasing a FE: Echoes video, eh?
*Subscribed*
Imo, my problem with avatar characters goes beyond the "character" and more so the over all tone of the story at least for FE in general. Because of how FE designs avatars they want to make the experience more wish fulfillment for their target audience. For a more experienced player of this franchise or other similar games, it leads to the games' plot being predictable, sometimes nonsensical, and not being taken as seriously. Three Houses is a bit of an exception, but there is that aspect that you are the savior of the leaders of each faction based on the route chosen, which is why Byleth is not the worst offender, but can still be a bit annoying.
The whole situation in CF with edelgard and rhea over byleth to byleth helping dimitri snap out of instead to his friends/loved ones to the devs flat out stating why 3 hopes is the way it is just makes me double down on not wanting avatars in the series (that's not even getting into the other writing plagues that the series needs to drop)
If they must stay, can we just get an ordinary person who joins the war like everyone else and doesn't have anything special about them that constantly makes everyone go WOW. Like literally just give us Kris again but without the black hole of a personality. Shez was cool since there are a couple scenes where their presence isn't even there and its just lord + retainers + nobles discussing politics. Made the world feel bigger by reminding you that shez is just a mercenary and they obviously wouldn't be there because they have their own thing going on (which also isn't shez's entire personality, but a side goal of rematch vs byleth)
Like where can they even go from here. We've gone from
>Mark being the reason Bern and Etruria went to war
>Kris being so OP that he tells Marth to take credit for his work
>Robin being some super OP designer baby
>Corrin being a water dragon with a chainsaw sword involved in heavy family drama
>Byleth being friends with a god and the entire continent wishing you played their route
>Shez
>Alear being a god
Take us back to the days with well written MC like IKE THE BEST LORD IN THE FUCKING SERIES. Seriously I will never understand why they won't go back to writing MCs like they did for ike in PoR.
Because PoR didn't sell.
@@jcdentoid fair enough but now that fe sells like holy shit give us decent writing
@@FoxEmblem01 the problem is that the trash sells better. PoR was well written but sold awfully, fe13 was full of tropes and weeb shipping with a player self insert and sold the best. Naturally they're going to make more games like fe13.
The big problem with the player avatar is it weakens the lord character. Ike wouldn't work if there were a player self-insert character hogging the spot light. Ultimately PoR is Ike's story from his PoV, but if you insert an avatar character into that its at best going to be Ike's story from the avatar's PoV.
Its why in the larger scheme of things, Chrom was a decent lord, but got sidelined in awakening in favor of the player character. He had strong motivations, was charismatic enough, and he had a decent character arc. The problem is that that's all in the first act of the game, then he's kinda just... there. Avatar characters also rob the lord character of decision making. It'd be kind of like if Ike just deferred all of his decisions to Soren. It weakens the character.
@@FoxEmblem01 I recommend Unicorn Overlord, its strategy RPG published by Sega.
Never played the older Fire Emblem games but you sold me at marriage 👍
With what youre saying about Fire Emblem engage, I cant help but feel like that the twist youre talking to is that he loses al the rings and then is like
"You forgot about one more Emblem... the Fire Emblem... and it 's the friends we make along the way!!!"
And the he summons the other people on the box art as emblem ghosts or something.
It is literally almost exactly that
The notes of God Shattering star being used in the Fates bit was very good. Very gud bit.
Its kinda oftopic but one thing that bothers me about Alear is that they can not turn in to a Dragon despite being one. I know there is a story reason but it bothers me.
Shez from 3 hopes was the only time an avatar worked for me aside robin
To be fair to Alear's decision to run from the corrupted, their vibes were indeed icky.
As a newer player who has only played FE3H and newer, this was very interesting! Thanks for the video!
Characters getting sidelined for the sake of the avatar is my number one biggest grievance in the modern Fire Emblem games. You already mentioned that it would have been better if Byleth was not part of the second act of 3H, which I absolutely agree with...but it's so much worst in Engage, it's so god damn worse. You have a main character (Alear) and four other protagonist that ARE MEANT to get focus and development, but most of them never do. Two of them never go through an arc or any character devlopment at all (Alfred and Timmera), another one has a sort of arc that is never wrapped up in a satisfying way (Ivy). The only one of the four protagonist that actively goes through an arc with a beginning, middle and end is Diamant.
I won't go to much into it because I have made this argument before, but pretty much I felt Engage should have been Diamant's game. He has everything set up for him to be the main character and if you compare him to Alear and think about it juuuust long enough. It does not make sense that Alear immediately knows how to fight, lead an army, or having any concepts at all on battle strategy as the game never once explains how they got this experience. You know who does have that experience? Diamant. Even after a year, I am still very salty about this because I felt like we were robbed of a better main character (that actually feels like a Fire Emblem character) because the avatar has to exists. This is what writing classes do to you. The number one rule of creating a story, if your side character is more interesting and complex than your main character, you should probably focus the story on them instead.
Agreed. The first time I saw Diamant and Ivy, I honestly thought they would have been better main characters of Engage than Male/Female Alear, where the player gets to decide which character they will play as from their perspective. Sure, the ending would probably still be the same for both factions where both sides realize they're being manipulated, controlled or coerce by an outside faction and will result in both intending to end the feud between their nations, but if female players wants to play as a female character and vice versa for males, then that should be the option for them for some variety.
@@Sole-Witness That's why I am super concerned for the next FE game. I do not think it would be wise for IS to create a game centered around the avatar for the 4th (5th?) time in a row. I really feel that whenever this next game comes out, it's either going to make or break the FE series moving forward.
Fans of the series has been divided for a while and IS consistently not listening to fan feedback isn't helping matters either. I only say this out of love because I have been an FE fan all my life...but FE needs to go back to their roots big time. IS needs to create a game that satisfies both new and veteran players and recently, they have been pushing their games mostly towards new fans and it has been biting them in the ass ever since.
That's all I really have to say about it. I don't know if this next game will be a NEW game or that fabled FE4 remake that people keep rumoring about...but if IS sticks an avatar character in a game where they don't belong. FE is dead to me at this point and we know where their priorities lie...
@@binxthebinx6575 I recommend Unicorn Overlord, its strategy RPG published by Sega.
Terrible fire emblem idea. You play as an avatar. But once you beat the main bad guy, the camera shows the avatar giving an evil laugh. Part one is finished. Part two of the game is playing as a different non avatar character from another land. This person learns the terrible truth on why everyone loves the avatar and attempts to take the avatar down. Who is now the main bad guy.
I'm someone who's pretty okay with avatar characters, but I thought you outlined the problems really well here. I actually really liked alear, more so than any of the avatars, and thinking about how much better they could have been if they just didn't let us name her is kinda sad. Well done, and thanks!
Mark is in heroes now that's how goated he was don't disrespect the goat and he has some of the best dialog in heroes such as ".........."
I hope that one day IS makes a Fire Emblem that: isn't rushed, a victim to poor/malicious translation, allows the player to make choices that affect the story and dialogue choices, good maps, and more traditional FE combat mechanics/stats again. But, they keep getting rewarded for making low quality and unfinished games with higher sales than ever, with new players that have low or no standards.
I'll keep biding my time for a good lead dev to take over and good team leads to back him up, to make that dream FE game that is as good as I know FE can be.
I recommend Unicorn Overlord, its strategy RPG published by Sega.
"YES I KNOW ABOUT FE 4, I wasn't really thinking about it because the marriage in that game is less "Waifu Simulator" and more "Game of Thrones""
I don't really know what you mean? But FE4 was the one to do it "as a mechanic" first though I do agree it did it in a far more immersive way (They don't come from the future or a baby dimension and time actually moves forward)
I also just don't really think about FE4 a whole lot in general because I played it once 10 years ago out of obligation. I get why people like it, but I personally am just not a fan of the gameplay. Especially after seeing how well they treated Gaiden with SoV, I'm holding out for a remake before I truly jump into it and really get into the whole Jugdral era
Its tiring because the games have the same issue a lot of self-insert games have where the entire game just constantly sucks you off and makes you a god that is just naturally amazing and cool and desirable.
I just want some fuckin friction and intrigue to how characters interact.
It's a shame they are afraid of commitment, hopefully one day we will see an actual avatar who has flaws and strengths that we make.
@@CoqueiroLendario No please just no more avatars in Fire Emblem
@@ShumaiTheDetective That kind of avatar has to go for sure, i agree.
Yeah, creatable characters are things I don't really care for anymore as an adult. I don't care for the writing (especially when things start getting...weird and gross) and even the gameplay customization aspects I don't care for anymore since balance goes out the window and JRPG style job systems don't appeal to me anymore.
Honestly would like a game with fully fleshed out main characters with their own name, appearance, backstory, personality and relationships along with a variance in age range (Niime is still the only playable old woman and that game is 2 decades old lol) and characters looking more...ordinary (and tone down [read: remove] the sexualization, please?)
@@ShumaiTheDetective I recommend Unicorn Overlord, its strategy RPG published by Sega.
Totally agree. Echoes is my favorite Modern FE game because it got to focus on the characters and plot rather than a half hearted self insert to please the player. Avatars arent inheritly bad but how they're handled in these current FE games is not good.
I dont think they'll drop avatars in the next game sadly. The audience they cultivated will riot if they can't marry their waifu and be the praise of everyone's life im plot. Like with anime tropes, FE has dug to deep to simply climb out cuz now they have a pool of fans that like this stuff keeping them in the pit. If they do shy away from it, it will definitely take a hit to sales, and I doubt they want that even if some of the fans would love that change. It's exactly why they've doubled and tripled down on the anime/self inserty stuff after Awakening blew up.
Anyway, I digress. If we have ro get an Avatar again, I do hope they make them less of a focus on the plot. An optional unit that exists but doesn't impact the story in a way that takes away from the main characters. Think like a custom character in certain games. Miis, for example.
2:53 Fiancé. They were gonna get married but they had a wedding complication called the game’s events.
I have mixed feelings about your point of Avatars. While I do agree about some of the poor decisions made with their inclusion, especially with the over celebration of them. Kris especially. I don't think the idea of have a character that could be named or gendered is inherently negative if done right. Alear while having their own flaws due to the overall writing and theming of the game is his own character and has an arc. While yes you can name and gender him he is still Alear in the end. It does make me question the point of having him as an avatar at all but the inclusion doesn't take away from the experience either for me atleast. Still overall I do agree that there have been many flaws with My Unit characters. We will have to cross our fingers going forward. Also amazing video. You gained a new subscriber hope to see an Echoes video in the future. Love that game
For me our crab friend said everything: it lacks commitment. They want us to see ourselves in a character but dont want to give the player the level of freedom or power of choice an actual avatar would have.
I think they should experiment with an spinoff of three houses where instead of a central piece of the plot, your avatar is a commoner who can shape their path slowly, in a more dynamic game and story.
Personally, the "Avatars would not be bad if they were done right" argument kind of falls apart when you realize that IS has tried to make Avatars 5 separate times, with very lacking results. They could get it down one day, but this tells me that they need to take at least 1 or 2 entries to stop doing this. The main reason is that they are not learning or are not learning enough from their mistakes. Engage and 3H may have had largely different teams, but Engage has retroactively taken a step back in terms of avatar writing/inclusion. Byleth was an effort to improve off of Corrin, but ended up being reconstructed into a character that very well should have just been a character.
If you look at Engage reviews, critics finally do highlight this issue, but it would be best if IS wpuld return to actual protagonists, master that type of story telling, and then use that experience to make a better avatar in the future.
@@mrfox5117 in a way the problem lies that they still want fire emblem to follow a pretty specific story and still want players to have their own avatar character, which are two pretty conflicting things.
I will take an example of a game wildly different from fire emblem but who makes the player character work: Disco Elysium.
You can't edit the way the protagonist looks, and you have to deal with his past life, but the moment the game begins, its like if a new man has been born, from the ashes and dust of a pile of old clothes, inside the body of a terminally drunken middle aged man, your character is born. Since from this moment beyond, you're in control of each of his actions and views, you define what he will think and say, and people will react accordingly.
For fire emblem to get this level of player freedom, the game story linearity would have to be sacrified in name of a "make your own story" kind of gameplay, which of course can work and exists plenty of examples in the game world of it working, but that would be a first for the fire emblem series.
@@mrfox5117 Fire Emblem is not the only game series that exist. Suikoden 2 has an avatar and it's story is better than any FE combined. The most praised videogame narratives are game like Planescape torment or Disco Elisyum that both have an avatar.
Avatars can absolutely be done well, they cannot be done well aa long as Intsys half ass and keep tryong to make this weird middle ground that fail both as an avatar and as it's own character.
@@noukan42 I suggested intelligent systems take a break from Avatars because they are not making good narratives with them in mind. I never said that Avatars are bad, I said that Insys is refusing to learn from their mishaps and that they need to take a break from incorporating a element they are not skilled at incorporating.
Maybe it's nostalgia, but my fav Avatar would be Mark. Little kid me really loved being involved in the story enough to be acknowledged, but not enough to steal the spotlight of my heroes. I'm a stinky adult now and I don't care too much about avatars now, I give them their base name and treat them as their own character most of the time. But I guess there's some kid out there feeling the same I felt back in the day as Mark, now with Byleth or Alear.
Even if I don't like Avatars too much these days, I wouldn't rob children of their moment of interaction with these games and their characters.
Yes, please, we absolutely need more games starring actual characters like SoV and less games like Engage.
I’ve said this on a different TH-cam video before talking about Avatar characters, but I actually like the idea of having an avatar, I just don’t like when IS try to make them their own character. Sure give the default their own personality, but handle them in the same way that Pokémon does theirs. I want a FE avatar who doesn’t have much of a background so it leaves us to decide those things, or do the character like Pokémon mystery dungeon does there’s. There is the dragon’s gate that connects to many worlds in the FE universe, so maybe act like our character somehow came through the dragons gate from the real world, but make them lose their memory. That would allow more customization like eye color, skin color, hair color, armor different hair color, etc, and maybe they can either make our protagonist silent, or have different dialogue depending on the personality type you pick. Also I feel like that would be great because say at the end of the game, it could be a somewhat emotional ending because your character likely would leave at the end of the game leaving whoever the lord is sad at the end, but they remember you, or maybe you stay if you S support them or any of the cast members or something. I hope IS will someday give us that type of avatar character who isn’t super story relevant like most Avatar character, but not as bland as Mark, and actually gives our characters some support conversations that are done like Byleth’s in Three Houses, but with more options. It could really make for a fun way to have yourself inserted to the game.
I was never much of a fire emblem fan, and I couldn't quite put my finger on why, but after watching it's ALWAYS been that I felt the self-insert and avatar characters to be a disconnect! I spent the video going "EXACTLY"!
I recommend Unicorn Overlord, its strategy RPG published by Sega.
FE 7"You are a weirdo tactician and a good friend.
FE awakening: You are a tactician warrior mage who is the catalyst of a dragon.
FE Fate: You are a stupid dragon!
FF three houses: You are a weirdo like FF7 avatar but can use a sword and you are catalyst of a God Dragon.
FF engage: You are literally GOD everyone love's and you are the Fie emblem.
Next FF: You are a god yourself player, everyone should kiss your foot. This isn't a game you are awesome! Praise the Player!
To be fair, that’s precisely how every single Fire Emblem work
I feel like ideally they would be some background character that doesn't really do much for the plot beyond join chapter along with being actually able to choose things like skin tone, body type, base class, etc.
i think the most rediculous thing about alears plot status is that he has 3 people who guard his bedroom which is already in a hard to access place for like A THAUSAND YEARS. there are generations of people that just guarded alears flipping bedroom.
I was shocked when I saw you only have 2k subscribers, I was baling my eyes out throughout the entire video 😂😂😂
if we get another avatar i hope is a taction kind of charater
And then there's Kiran who is Mark 2
Honestly the reason I like Mark so much is BECAUSE they're so irrelevant to the plot. The story goes on with or without you. You're not this super special hero who's the real reason the day was saved. You're not this royal who everyone loves. You're not this god who everyone worships. You're just some random person who got attacked by bandits and was rescued by Lyn. You talk to the characters every now and then, but when the fighting starts you run off to safety and leave the spotlight. And if you beat the game and you do well, you get invited to a coronation, say your goodbyes, and get a brief mention in the ending regarding how well you did (or didn't) giving advice to the army.
While part of me wants a FE 7 (and 6) remake, I'm also terrified they'll have all the characters blow Mark by secretly making him some dragon god or something. FE 7 literally ended with Lyn, Eliwood, and Hector saying "Let's not mention this shit to people". I don't want to be the God Savior of Elibe, I want to be someone who helped out, got to meet a lot of cool people, and then went home when everyone saved the day.
And maybe marry Florina.
Mira xurra son las 3 de la mañana en España y me he topado con esta chulada de canal
Thank you crab man for speaking some words. I tried playing some fire emblem games just seeing why there are so many characters in smash maybe i should try them out. Well after playing the games i still dont understand that question idk maybe the games aren't for me but yeah its really funny the self insert characters fail at even being self inserts
I loved the video! I can't wait for that echoes video to come out
I wonder if they would remake Mark into an actual usable character if they ever do a remake of Elibe Saga
The problem I find with Avatar is when they are written in way that suggest that they really aren't supposed to be an Avatar in the first place.
Both Shez and Byleth has this problem where they are written in such a way that gives them character depth.
Shez has active chrisma that makes him so likable with having dialogue option that makes me care about them being an actual character. While Byleth has a lot of dialogue options that gives them so much depth. They are blunt, making dark jokes but caring as well. In JP version, they canonically call the Remire Villagie situation during TWSITD experiment "fucked up" after Edelgard herself catches herself as she nearly swears. ( Edelgard as FE swear the most out of all FE lords. )
What makes this worst is that depending on the route, both Shez and Byleth has a character arc being only in SB and CF respectively because otherwise, they are written to be an Avatar the player can put themselves onto. Nothing makes this clear then Byleth role in AM narrative where there is next to no character agency. ( Dimitri is explicitly written to be a Otome character. )
Shez character arc in SB is all about overcoming Revenge and achieving something greater and meaningful in life through Shez helping Edelgard out with her war and choosing to fight the war in a more strategic manner. Because otherwise, if Shez does kill Jeralt, then the war is prolong through Claude betrayal and Byleth falling into revenge allowing for Sothis to take over control. SB as a whole is written in a way that lack an Emotional narrative as it is a recontextualisation piece as it meant to change how we view Edelgard, her idealogy and her war in both games. As SB knows that CF is Edelgard emotional narrative so there no point making another.
Meanwhile, Byleth has an active role in CF narrative. Rhea after their head of course with their arc being the same as Edelgard. "To allow one to be human again and to not accept a destiny that isn't one own choosing." Both Byleth and Edelgard has a problem that forces them not to be human but as be give a destiny not of one own choosing. Byleth by birth due to Rhea plans of being back Sothis in turn causing them not to feel emotions until Jeralt death. Byleth destiny is in someway become some form of leader over Fódlan. To be this "Messiah" like figure. Byleth never gets any form of say or agency outside of CF and 3Hopes. They never get a choice to be who they want to be in their life.
Through, siding with Edelgard, they get back their freewill, their choice in life and after the war, they are bound by no goddess or society and are free to be who they want to be and feel emotion. To have a beating heart.
So yeah, in Shez and Byleth case, making them the Avatar rather then your normal protagonist retroactively damaged their characters.
That's not the intended character arc for Byleth at all. According to the developer's interview at Nintendo, the first route written was Silver Snow, and the lore and worldbuilding as well as the overall characters descriptions were made with that route in mind. Also, the director initially wanted CF to be much more of a secret, hard to access branch route, and the internal files datamine says it was the last route to be created (hence why it's shorter and has a lower budget, they probably reached the deadlines and couldn't even finish Jeritza on time) but people at Koei Tecmo begged him to make CF easier to choose, so at the finished product you only have to talk to Edelgard at a certain date after reaching a certain support level, but during the beta test it was much harder. The devs also said the drama and tragedy of having to kill your former student Edelgard was the emotional core and theme of the game. So, Byleth becoming head of the church is their intented character arc from the very beginning. But I can't blame people for getting the wrong idea, it would be much easier to understand if they allowed Byleth to talk.
I haven't played 3hopes so I'll take your word, but Byleth is a bad character *all around* , in Three Houses.
They are written to be bland on purpose for self insert reasons and they even give some story explanations for why, but it never really changes the fact that they have a slightly lower level of undeserved protagonist worship as Alear. Almost everybody instantly falls in love with this seemingly unemotive person who just showed up and they very quickly become the most popular teacher in the academy by doing nothing but their job. I'd be more believable if it was revealed all the characters liked Byleth because they thought that Byleth is really hot. Even the developers must have realized how bland Byleth is, because past white clouds they are removed from the main character position and they just become an accessory to whatever lord they chose at the beginning of the game. Most peoples favorite part of the game isn't white clouds for a reason.
Even in SS, VW, AM, or CF, Byleth still suffers, I'll use CF as an example since you touched on it. CF tries to sell the idea of Byleth reclaiming their free will and humanity but it doesn't work because Byleth has all ways had both of those things. Never has Byleth's agency not been theirs, even with a crest stone heart and Sothis in their head they have always made their own decisions. Byleth was also never born to be a messiah figure because the crest stone ending up in Byleth's heart was a decision by Sitri to save them, not for any future plans. Rhea tried to take advantage of this by attempting to have sothis take over Byleth, once she learned that Byleth did have sothis's power, but her plan failed. The goddess nor society has *never* bound Byleth to do anything, Byleth definitely has pressure from Rhea, but it's ultimately Byleth's choice to listen or not. Pressure or expectations don't remove agency.
You say Byleth never has any agency or say besides CF but that's just not true. Was it not Byleths choice to help Claude realize his dream? Was it not Byleth's choice to help Dimitri when he was loosing himself? Is it not Byleth's choice whether or not he marries somebody at the end of Silver Snow? If it wasn't their choice then who's choice was it? Because it definitely isn't Sothis. There's potential in your idea but the game it doesn't have the balls to actually deliver.
It would be compelling if we got moments where Sothis would take over Byleth and do things without their permission, things Byleth doesn't want to do, but that never happens, even after they merge together. So when Byleth's heart starts beating again after killing Rhea, it's a neat moment but it ultimately means nothing, Byleth is still the same person they were before, beating heart or not. Symbolism is the idea here, but for symbolism to work the character writing needs to be up to par, which in the case of Byleth it is not. Symbolism can't save shoddy writing.
In conclusion, IS tried to sell a silent self insert protagonist who is also a character. The result is a character that failed at all of the above, *especially* the character part. Robin was a bad self insert, but at least he was a charismatic character, I hope they go back to that.
I am of the opposite mindset. What makes each avatar unique IS their personalities: flaws and all. While being self inserts, Robin feels completely different from Corrin, Corrin from Byleth. There themes and character arcs. So on so so forth. You wouldn’t get that same feeling from a full blank slate self avatar. Especially if the options aren’t there to really build that avatar in depth. While the personalites do range in relatability and effectiveness, each game still has a level of choice that has only expanded with recent releases. So there is still a level of immersion with the game itself and these avatars. If the options were there I could see a blank slate avatar working but it would def take away from cutscenes and story nuances.
@@ryuuteix797 I personally prefer what CF does with Byleth. _
Byleth instead getting a role foisted on him by Rhea and others gets to live completely different lives depending on their partners.
Fits well with CF's themes
@@Vlm303 ...did you play three hopes? most of what your saying is pretty obviously incorrect in canon. please do more research next time.
0:40 was straight up gonna "um aktually" you, but you vantage'd that perfectly.
If they just improved on Robin by actually making the PC insert just another recruitable unit instead of a main protagonist, that would be a better option if they didn't want to go full RPG (which I feel they should instead of being lazy, sterile, and corporate by half @&sing it). Though if they wanted to make the PC a protagonist, a fun plot twist would be if there was a secret route where the main protagonists died due to a choice that results in your PC becoming the protagonist and full on necromancer that continues the war with the corpses of the fallen.
So two options:
1. Like many RPGs with set characters, a mercenary mechanic where you can build custom units that are more or less background characters.
2. Else go full RPG where there is a protagonist, but the insert is fully fleshed out with meaningful alternate dialogue based on the personality traits you chose for your character during creation like you would see in interactive fiction and old school rpgs.
Yeah, about that, prologue IS your recruitment
I think that people tend to reeally hate on Kris because you can not romance any girl nor guy as F!Kris, because even if Kris isn't that fleshed out as a character he is still a separate character by itself that has its own original story (the gaiden chapters and their story with Katarina) and not necesarily just an avatar, and contrary to what many people say, he isn't the center of the universe in FE12 because he is just "that awesome" or "he is the guy that did all the hard work!, not Marth". Most people that say that kind of stuff didn't play the game nor payed any real attention to the game's story which saddens me, FE12 may be a remake and not have Echoes level of writting but it still has a good writting with the new characters added in.
the citra laggy gameplay LOL i have to suffer through that so much
honestly i don't know why Citra was lagging so bad, my PC is definitely beefy enough to handle it, and Fates runs just fine. Seems like it's a problem I'm having with Awakening specifically.
I am surprised you didn't touch on how Engage's DLC literally implies the world just ends beyond redemption if Alear dies, to show how absurd the avatar worship becomes.
I think your last section really struck a chord with me. The only game I’ve ever tried customizing the avatar is in awakening, which was my first fire emblem game. After it was completely obvious that literally nothing about the “avatar” reflects the player other than their name and how they look (sometimes), I just forego customizing avatars entirely now. I vastly prefer just keeping the default name and look, as it just makes them another character disconnected from my identity. I never resonated with any of the self insert stuff, and as such I greatly prefer the games without the avatar being a self insert. IMO, fire emblem should either just remove avatars to allow fully fleshed out characters to take the spotlight again, or fully commit to an avatar by allowing them to be shaped by the player’s actions and decisions.
Instantly sold after “Fire Emblem, am I right?” Annnnnd subscribed.
Funny story, when I was taking writing classes in college. I really started to learn about cliches and predicting plot points just from the writing alone. I mention this because one of the most DUMBEST moments that made me feel like a super genius at the time happened in Fire Emblem Revelations. Your mother in that game literally tells you to choose between the red door and the blue door and instructs you to go through the blue door because it's safe. I had already caught on to Fates bullshit by this point and thought "This seems like a trap. Fuck it, I'll pick the red door, what do I have to lose." I picked the red door which was the one without enemies (sometimes a character instructing you to pick the door that is colored to represent danger makes these traps more obvious) and you mother is just like "WHHHAT? HOW DID YOU KNOOOW!?" And Corrin gives her a monologue on how it was CLEARLY OBVIOUS as I sat there on my bed in shock over the dumbest thing I have ever seen in a fire emblem game...
No, that's not true. Corrin allowing herself to trust a random child IN THE CLEARLY EVIL RELM and follow him alone into a temple only to get ambushed by him immediately...is the dumbest thing I have seen in a fire emblem game, period. I could right a five to eight page essay of why the writing for that very concept is stupid and dumb and makes Corrin look incompetent in every way.
I could write*
Minor Spelling mistake, argument invalidated
@@AzumarillConGafasBv *Minor spelling mistake, argument invalidated.*
- Capitalizes the second word in a sentence that is not a name, place or title.
- Does not use periods.
- Places an asterisk incorrectly at the end of a sentence and does not use it to reference or make note of something that was omitted from a text...
But ok, you do you bro.
@@binxthebinx6575 damn, beaten at my own game
@@binxthebinx6575 The Reason for Fate's sloppy story, is because the writers where trying to achieve too much with not enough time. Intelligent Systems had an idea for Fate to have three stories to appeal to everyone, but they realized that they didn't have enough writers. So they hired an outside writer, Shin Kibayashi was that writer. Intelligent Systems wanted Shin to write the outline for each pathway, what happened instead is that Shin wrote 500 pages for each pathway. Intelligent Systems knew this was too long so they cut the story into pieces without the writers permission and the fact the Nintendo demanded Fates come on the Fire Emblem Anniversary only made things worse. Which resulted in this hilariously mess of a story. The good news this that there is a manga based on Fates that is a little better. Its called Fire Emblem If: the Crown of Niberlung.
Subscribing for the Shadows of Valentia video
Spectacularly put, well done Soda Crab!
Fire Emblem fans when they receive a compliment (it's avatar worship)
Got a sub from me, super excited to see what else you do! I appreciate your editing, and I hope to see lots of videos from you. Great job man!
I agree with basically everything you have to say here and I'm glad to see someone make a well articulated video about it. Hell, I'd probably have lambasted the FE12-14 avatars even more, myself.
However I do have to say, given how they're actually made use of by the game, I basically don't even consider Alear an avatar. They are already a distinct (if fairly typical for a protagonist) character: they have informed opinions on their world, they cry, have trouble accepting certain things, have stated likes and dislikes, and even in chapter 5 straight up tells the boss to 'prepare to die' which is far more than Robin, Corrin, and Byleth ever got to do. I do still agree that the character is nothing but held back by being able to be renamed, but at least unlike Robin and Corrin who are milquetoast and boring cardboard cutouts for other characters to Talk At, Alear does actually exist in the world as an individual. Whether they're for any given person is neither here nor there, but I appreciated that about them by comparison. Even if Engage's story writing isn't complex or deep, it's earnestly committed to its tone and very basic 'Red and Blue/Bad and Good' themeing and Alear does work within that, I feel. It might be 'cringe' but it's free and I'd vastly prefer that to a game that constantly nudges the player in the ribs like "look how GOOFY and RIDICULOUS this is".
Still want a completely unchangeable by the player main character again, though. Shez and Alear may as well be their own characters, but I still want a truly distinct from the player character.
Honestly, Mark is the best avatar because he's not anything more than a window attached to the fourth wall.
Even though avatars have largely had a detrimental effect on the stories they’re in just because they HAVE to be the center at least SOME attention, I still really like the idea of having a something like a deuteragonist like Robin or Byleth that acts as the eyes of the player. They aren’t THE main character, and they wouldn’t necessarily be customizable, even down to their name, but if you were to have a hub area like the academy from 3H, you’re exploring and setting things up AS those characters; they’re the eyes you see the world from. Then again, Shez from Three Hopes is the closest to that, I think. You can still customize their gender and name but Shez has more personality than Byleth had, since Byleth’s personality was mostly that they didn’t have much to speak of. But at the same time, Shez has their own goals, and still stands shoulder to shoulder with the house leaders. At least, that last bit is the feeling I got from what of Three Hopes I’ve played through.
Man how does this have so few views? Your content is great my guy
thank you for making this video
Yes yes yes all of this, so glad that someone else was passionate enough about this to make a video essay about it, cuz I was never gonna do it :p
I want a new Fire Emblem without an avatar character so bad, remakes are great and all but we can only get a shadows of valentia so many times before they run out of avatarless games to remake
I recommend Unicorn Overlord, its strategy RPG published by Sega.
It is so funny how many Alts Byleth and Robin get in FE Heroes when they are not even characters at all. The shop NPCs in Tellius are more of a character than those 2. Corrin at least is a distinctive character even if it can be pretty frustrating at times with the things he/she tries to do in the story. I still think me yelling "Corrin what the fuck are you thinking you idiot" at least makes them memorable vs the By and Robin who just kind of exist.
I agree that avatar characters are a poorly implemented and half-assed feature, but I think you're underselling Robin and Byleth a bit. Due to how those two games work, it matters that they're an avatar even if you don't get to make too many choices and it comes down to interactions with the rest of the cast. As you said, Chrom and Lucina could be just another protagonist and deuteragonist in the story, but they could also be your family. That's a huge difference in dynamics that only happens if you're a woman and choose to marry Chrom out of all the options (unless you get roped into it by game mechanics). Even if you don't marry Chrom, you'll still get one or two second generation characters who are your children and fight alongside you, entirely from the choices you make outside of the main plot. Similarly, in 3H you play as a teacher and your units are mostly your students. How they grow and change is something you influence in-world, and you also get to choose which other units to add to your roster who can accept or refuse depending on how you've been spending your time, even if that only comes down to stats. Even the choice of which side you pick alters the world, as it becomes evident from multiple playthroughs that the you are what's keeping the three protagonists from breaking under pressure and becoming murderers, tyrants, or older Claudes. These things don't matter if you think about what these characters did "in-canon" or from the future like in Engage or Heroes, but in the self-contained playthroughs that the games are, they matter.
5:45 well geneology exists but who remembers a almost 28 year old game that was jp only and had maps so gigantic its a nightmare
22:24 hit the nail on the head right here
Really nice video dude! Modern fire emblem sure is a piece of work we love for the right and wrong reasons!
However a small correction: awakening wasn't the first fire emblem to have marriage as a core mechanic in the series, that title actually goes for fire emblem genealogy of the holy war!
This is relevant because genealogy is supposedly the next game in the list of fire emblem game remakes, and one that can get an avatar character shoehorned in.
I will assume you dont know the story of fe4 but a perfect avatar player character would completely undermine the darker tones and messed up world of jugdral.
But even if that happens, I will probably make a female avatar just so arden can have the best perfect overpowered wife avatar for him.
LMAO imagine if your avatar let you pick a character from gen 1 to save. Arden, strong and tough, with the power of avatar plot armor
I couldn't have said it better myself. Real and true.
Recommended to your channel by an FE youtuber because of Pokemon, and you have not disappointed yet!
Great video! I got a real chuckle out of hearing you lambaste Corrin (who is a genuinely irritating character for the exact reasons you mention). I genuinely could not bring myself to finish Engage--as you say, it's incredibly cringe, but cringe is the one flavor of bad that I've never been able to enjoy ironically. Plus, its mechanics and map design don't reach the heights of Conquest in a way where it can counterbalance the ensconcing narrative. Tbh, Engage's writing is so horrendously bad even without issues connnected to the avatar that I genuinely doubt IS's ability to do better in the future.
@Soda Crab you missed one, from the 2nd most recent FE game, three hopes! the warriors version of 3 houses. as you get to be an avatar on that too.
I 100% forgot Three Hopes existed, but I don't really count it anyways since it's a spinoff game
@@SodaCrab i mean isn't engage a spin off? you summon OTHER FE characters into the game to boost/buff the mc? but lets say for simplicity sake it wasn't would you have it fall under the "avatar problem"?
@@SodaCrab It's a spin-off, sure -- but if this video is all about Avatars, and a game has lore about TWO Avatars, shouldn't you at least have googled it?
@@Veilure Being a spinoff kind of leaves it outside of the scope of this video though. It's the same reason I didn't talk about Kiran.
Personally, since Byleth is so quiet, I view them more as an Avatar, while Alear is a customizable protagonist. I mean, if we had FE1's Marth, and could rename Marth and change their gender, but keep everything else the same, would that be an "Avatar"?
Alear IS a character. How well written/good they is debatable, but you as the player, never get to make any choices. It is always Alear.
Video was fun, but I completely disagree about them not being true self inserts. A self insert doesn't mean some super customizable RPG protagonist. Kirito (SAO) is a self insert and he's from an anime with no player input period. A self insert is just a character designed for the intended audience to see themselves as, usually through some sort of power fantasy. With that in mind, I think more or less all of them are self inserts, somehow with Alier being perhaps the least so.
I am sorry cute little crab, you couldn't escape the "blood lines" of FE14...
As that guy, who grew up on Gaiden, yes, I hope that the Genealogy remake is Avatar free. Or that if they have one, it's more, complimentary, like Kris. If they NEED one.