I'm hybrid but about 95% of that is ITB lol. The other 5% is my mixbus chain and printing vocal stems thru my vocal chain if I know they tracked their own vocals with an interface.
Absolutely! I’ve Been Mixing Here In Atlanta For 30 Years! Came Up On SSL, Neve & Trident But My Friend Glen Schick Moving Completely In The Voice Inspired Me To Go For It Although I Have Tons Of Vintage Outboard Gear From Over The Years From API, Dbx, Focusrite, Bae, Drawmer, and Manley. But Because I’ve Used The Actual Hardware And Understand What It Should SoundLike And How It Should Be Used. I Get Great Results Now Totally ITB. Thanks For The Discussion 👌 Spent My Available Cash On Speakers And Amazing Conversion
I've been working in the music industry for 25+ years. I mix full time. Between 150 - 200 projects a year. I'm a freelancer so I'm mostly working with people who are recording at home so the tracks I get to work with are usually less than ideal. I do have a few pieces of hardware but I'm working %75 ITB and I get KILLER mixes time and time again. I know this to be true because I have a proven track record and my clients return time and time again. I also compare my work to the stuff on the charts all the time. Yes, there is a difference but I'm almost positive the difference is more from the tracks I am being provided to work with than from my skillset or tools. Getting it right at the source is BY FAR the most important thing. The tools will only take you so far and it doesn't matter if they are digital or analog at that point. That's what I've learned over all these years.
@@EdThorne For sure. Getting it right at the source is by far the most important part of a good mix. Even tho it really has nothing to do with mixing. I use the same plugins and hardware for almost every mix I work on. So I'm consistently using the same stuff to do the work. So if it was the gear that mattered, in theory, every mix should sound pretty much just as good as the last one. We all know that's not how it works tho lol. The quality of the performances matters quite a bit too. If you have good recordings performed by people who can actually play/sing well then you are off to the best start you can be. Those two things are the most important. After that, it's knowing what to do with the tracks when you get them. If I had to put a number on it, in my experience anyway, the tools you use to get the job done account for about 30% of the whole picture. I've mixed everywhere from world-famous control rooms to the train lol. I've done mixes that were 100% analog and 100% digital. I rarely find myself saying, "man if I only had (insert plugin/hardware name here) that would be all I need to knock this mix out of the park". I often find myself saying, "if these guitars were recorded better the whole mix would sound so much better"! Anyway, I'm rambling. Thanks for listening hahaha!
@@RealHomeRecording Hey Adam! While I do post on gear space every now and again, unfortunately I'm pretty confident I'm not the Matt you speak of lol. I'm not very active there usually. Sorry to disappoint haha!!
@@matt_nyc_audioengineer Yes it's true for mixes. The only thing that sounded true (one pro was saying...) was that in "mastering stage" (where you want that extra 5% of magic) working with some extra analog gear is much more forgiving if you make any small mistake where with digital you have to do everything almost perfect for top result. I don't even mix in computer (everything on a outside high end keyboard workstation) and I've reached progress using the same stuff over and over and I found quickly is better to work with the same tools for years getting best with it than constantly changing the plug'ins and making a big mess everytime ... :)) I use only some transformers at mastering stage and a high end preamp makes sence when recording vocals which again conforms your point that the recordings must be top notch and you are already 90% there - if you know how to mix reasonably well of course. Years ago I thought: I have a bad gear, I should work with computer, than 5 years later my mixes are 100 times better with the same tools, so it's not so much gear as knowledge and expirence. The tehnology nowdays (ITB mixing) is good enough so you can make great mixes. 20 years ago was a different story, but not today. As I said, maybe in mastering stage makes sence to add some analog stuff in the chain ...:)
When I moved from outboard gear (including an analogue desk) to ITB, it took me a long time to get the same quality of results I previously achieved. This, like most things, was down to skill, knowledge of my gear and not the gear itself. A monkey with a mouse is not an audio engineer with decades of experience.
The big things for me are ergonomics, the experience, and inspiration. Being able to turn a knob vs use my mouse is significant in all 3 places. It's significantly less wear and tear on my arm (I've had 3 surgeries), it feels tangible which tends to allow me to really feel the music more intimately, and of course because of that I'm inspired to work and have fun doing so!
The old debate hardware v digital…All the famous top end ITB mixers like Andrew Scheps receive their audio that’s been tracked through analogue….Ed mentioned this….this kills the debate. By all means use a EQ plugin to tweak a vocal tracked with a U87 and Neve preamp 1176-LA2A hardware chain….but don’t think for one minute a plugin chain will beat a quality hardware front end.
100% agree here. If your tracks have mojo in the first place you can mix from there in the box after the fact. I also believe in the tracking phase to create a vibe and I do the "live and die" by it method (at least 80% of the time) and have it all baked in (modulation, effects, good and bad noises, etc).
that is my exact game plan. since i have u gathered here may i ask, what nice slow compressor would you guys recommend for vocals ? in a dual comp setup where i already have a quick vca one ( max 8ms on attack) trying not to break the bank with a cl1b :s and also how hard u guys go on A/D converters ?? im on a adi-2 which became the weakest link in my chain but i have no reference point to know how much better it could get
@@LordBiffMusic For my 500 series rack I love my Hairball FET/500 Revision D for vocals. For my AD/DA I am using a Cranborne 500ADAT chassis so it takes care of that and then some. For an Opto type compressor I can't recommend the Audio-Scape Opto Compressor enough especially for the price you pay. Love their gear! I also have a Revive-Audio modded ART VLA II (I went with the Cinemag add on) that was very affordable and is excellent after the mod. If you are willing to make a switch and have an interface with 500 series the Cranborne 500R8 might be worth a look as it it does a lot and has A/D and Adat and summing built in. If i did things over I would of gone with that as my do it all piece.
Analogue is awesome! However, for simplicity, space and $ sake, I've been recording completely in the box with my Apollo for half a decade and never looked back. Awesome video and content as usual Ed, thanks for all you've done for our audio community!
Thumbs up for experience before any software or hardware you use. I have been mixing for 25 years. I first started with a Mackie Digital 8 bus and an Otari Radar 24 ch. recorder. From their the owner of that studio built an enormous studio with Studer 827As, Pro Tools, Outboard gear AND an SSL 9k!!! Worked their for many years, mixed many albums in that console, although only recorded to tape once; drums, bass and guitars and bounced into Pro Tools. Then I built a hybrid studio in my house and started doing side projects in there. I would sometimes mix in my studio then go mix the same song on the console, not only did it sound better but I worked much faster. But some projects wouldn’t have the budget for the console so I had to work in my home studio. Then I went to a studio with Oxford consoles, and although they are the best faders I’ve worked on, the sound wasn’t like the SSL. Then I stopped going to this studios and worked a lot in my home studio, I kept getting better with the hybrid system, and I was working faster and the budgets for the projects kept reducing!! So there was no going back. Then I started working with a producer who had two SSL 4ks. My first mixes sucked! So it was a hit and miss thing. The problem was I was doing the same things ITB and using the console as a summing mixer, but the color was getting in my way. Although the last mixes I did on it were much better, recalls were a nightmare. And we had a lot of clients so I couldn’t afford the time wasted. Came back to my hybrid mixing and just did the best I could. One day I moved to another city and didn’t want the hassle of reconnecting everything. I was working on one project that started in the hybrid system and decided to finish it 100% ITB. The results after adjusting some levels, especially drums and bass was negligible to me and to the band. Since then I stayed ITB and didn’t look back. In my experience, having to know how to get great results is the key. If you can get them with gear, go ahead! Still the recording process does have to have at least great mics, mic-pres and a/d conversion. That is a must!
Great video, well said! I have a hybrid setup. Doing my own shootouts analog hardware is better than plugins, but the difference is very subtle and slight. and if you record with analog gear it's practically non-existent. what matters is getting the harmonic saturation and natural warmth at some point in the signal chain. If you get it during the recording stage you won't need it later on. The issue now is that most people aren't mixing with hardware they're using on board preamps in a low end interface (looking at you focusrite 2i2) and giving it to you to mix. so putting it through hardware will make it a lot faster to mix - notice i didn't say BETTER - as your skill, room, ears, taste will always take you so far and if you have goals/vision that doesn't align with the client well then it's a bad mix. the analog gear i got is a bus compressor, distressor, api preamps (probably gonna sell), and a BAE (neve) 1028 pre/eq. Essentially I got a great signal chain to record vocals and acoustic guitar at the highest quality. granted my current space isn't a place to record any of those things well (i got all of that in my old place which was great for this stuff). In any case I think having a GREAT vocal chain these days is everything. get a top notch preamp and compressor combo (i highly recommend what i got rn) and don't skimp by buying warm audio it's not nearly as good, if you wanna save some cash get stam audio or a bunch of other brands that are slightly more money but much better quality (i've also heard a bit about quality control issues with warm). So did you (or me) waste the money? Depends on your client base and how much you value your time (assuming you save a LOT of time with analog gear). here's the important thing too: if you don't like what you have, you can easily sell it for most of your money back, and in some cases i've actually earned a few dollars upon resell. it is VERY difficult to sell plugins these days. and in some cases nearly impossible to transfer licenses. plus analog hardware rarely becomes obsolete where as plugins can sound inferior after a few years. if you have the work or spare cash and record more than mix, it may be better to buy hardware. if you are only mixing, i don't think it matters much: whichever way works best for your workflow.
I went from full studio with Neve V72 Otari Tape machines PTs and about £70k of outboard. To a hybrid mixing system based around a neve 8816 and 8804 summing system about 10 years ago . Kept a lot of the outboard for a few years and slowly realised the recall is genuinely impossible even with neves fancy recall software . It was never the same and as I got to working on more Media composition quick recall became essential and the benefits of my outboard g series bus comp and ancient pultecs where getting smaller and smaller . Hence 11 years in from closing the studio in now entirely ITB. I’ve kept a few choice bits for tracking but essentially I’m down to one rack with 5 units init . That’s it . I could never go back to analog again now .
The thing I noticed about analog since my journey. The amount of headroom I have, the depth, and the sonic character from the gear. I love the hybrid approach.
I’m a tracking and mixing studio so having a console and outboard gear is very important for getting sounds how I want them. When mixing I’m itb unless someone wants to pay for analog mixing which is more because if recall. Honestly most clients don’t care how I mix it as long as it sounds good. If I was just a mix engineer I’d opt for a nice master bus chain. As you said in the video, these guys are getting top tier recordings to mix. Plus decades of experience interning with other pros. Cheers
I spent 30k on a analog hybrid set up. Spent 50k moving to Nashville to go to Blackbird because it's a gear addicts dream. After all that, I sold all of it because the gear is not the problem. If we could buy great recordings with gear everyone would. You still have to play your instruments and write great music which is hard. It's more important to learn proper recording and mixing techniques, but at the end of the day the gear are tools, an SM7 didn't sing Thriller for Michael Jackson, Aretha Franklin voice doesn't come with a U47. It starts at the source. You can make great recordings with a Behringer x18 and budget mics. I did one mix on the hybrid set up that I thought truly had an awesome analog sound, but other mixes in the box were better and easier to recall. Unless you have an assistant, clients these days want recalls galore for the smallest adjustments. The analog gear didn't improve my mixes at all. It was more expensive and cumbersome.
@@EdThorne I mean I don’t think there’s a wrong way. It’s just about the workflow that you want. I definitely had a lot of fun using compression on the way in with a real compressor and all that jazz and at one point I had a TG one and that was amazing on drums and I would use it in parallel on pretty much everything. It was a lot of fun I definitely don’t blame anyone for having analog gear . I just found that there was other things that I need to focus on to make a good song or a good mix
It’s such a catch 22. I really do love the warm audio stuff for the quality and affordable. Running through that stuff during tracking I feel and hear the slight improvements
I stick to Audioscape and Stam (even Black Lion)- happy to own no Warm (as poor as I am lol) woukd feel like buying Behringer ( tho I’m sure Warm are better humans then behrnger ceo
Forget about "which sounds better," I ask myself "which is more enjoyable and whats the value of enjoying what I do"? Theres my equation. Hybrid setup here
Hybrid, I think you touch on the main driver for me it's the tangible feedback. I tweak a knob I hear the results. I often feel a disconnect with plugins and tend to lean into presets rather than play with it and find what sounds right, meanwhile understanding the why behind it
The main question you should ask yourself is "Am I pleased with my work flow and why do I even work as a mixing engineer"? I am sure it is not only to get the most number of streams. It must be because you have fun doing it and love mixing. There only rule is that there are no rules - everbody works differently each in their own way and the most important is the result and sonic experience. So if you are happy with your setup and the results are great you have wasted 0 $.
No, you didn't "waste" your money. If a hybrid workflow is how you like to work then embrace it and move forward. I hear a lot of "this person mixes hit records and only uses, blah, blah, blah",....Andrew Scheps mixes on $100 headphones,....this big time mixer does this, etc, etc. As you said, if you get impeccably record raw tracks you're more than halfway there. It's one of the differences between truly pro and not.
Analog hardware has the benefit of no latency. Which is a Really Big benefit, especially when it comes to automation. I am not aware of any daw that has perfectly addressed the issue of plugin latency compensation with automation.
Great video Ed! You have awesome gear. I don't think you wasted your money, but I do think you have a few modules that do roughly the same thing or do things that plugins can do (much faster). When I buy analog gear, I always do my research and demos to make sure that there is either no plugin equivalent or the plugin equivalent is not nearly as good as the hardware. This strategy has worked very well for me. I have owned or used most of the modules you have, I can tell you that there is no plug-in that does what the RM HD456 does; so that is a smart investment though you need one more. The SSL G Bus 500 is also another module that regularly outshines the plug-in equivalent, so another smart buy. The WES Audio stuff is great but imo there are plugins that work just as well. When I had them, I found that I used the recall function much less than I expected. I had similar experience with the API EQs, they are awesome but I sold them after I used the UA version. I kept my Maags because imo they sound much more 3D than the plugins. I love the SSL EQs but again I felt that I got similar performances from UA and PA plugins. I also enjoyed the Harrison EQs but again I had the UA version which sounds very similar. I would say with analog gear; it's good to limit yourself to what you absolutely need for your workflow and nothing else. I have come to learn (the hard way) that the beginning and the end of the signal chain are very important investment as well. IF you asked me; in your case I would trim off on some modules that don't get much use and upgrade your monitoring system - perhaps something with DSP and bigger drivers than your current system (Genelecs, Geithain, PSI). No doubt you will hear a difference and that can contribute to building your skills.
Hey there. Thanks for the feedback, some great comments there. Yeh, I definitely got suckered into the GAS of 500 series - they’re like adult Pokémon cards 🤣 I’ve just rotated a few pieces out (video in the way) for those exact reasons. I agree with your assessment of most of those pieces besides the APIs. They have a depth like no plugin I’ve ever heard. And, yeh, I’ve considered upgrading my monitoring but my room is a bigger problem so I don’t think it’s worth the investment atm. I fell in love with PMCs in LA but would probably go ATC. Genelecs are good but not for me.
Having grown up with analog and tape machines and analog hardware, I sold off almost all of my anaolg gear back in the 2000's and went ITB. After using that for 15 years I started buying analog gear again and began inserting it back into my workflow. Mostly in the tracking stage but mixing as well. Without a doubt, analog gear sounds better than plugins, but the truth is, some plugins will do things analog can't without spending many tens of thousands of dollars. A hybrid setup is the way to go. There are advantages to each platform.
After mixing ITB for about 6 years, I've been looking into analog gears. That's how I found your channel, Ed. I've been using emulation plugins for years and recently. I started tracking vocals through an ITB chain (0 latency plugins), mostly with Neve1073 style Pre & EQ, then an 1176 and LA2A. My goal is to familiarize myself with the committed settings on the way in. At first, I was making a big mess most of the time but I believe I got better after a couple of months. And I guess I'll be making some mistakes when I actually use analog units but it's quite necessary imo. Trial and error, of course.
Sounds like you’re in the Apollo world of DSP processing on the way in! It’s great! Goes a long way to improving raw audio for sure! Analog is a whole other beast of gain staging. I had to completely re-learn the concept for the different format. Still tweaking it for consistency.
Start by recording the same signal with the same microphone. Record the signal once through the expensive analog hardware and once directly through the digital interface. Then, leave the analog track as it is and process the digital recording with analog plugin emulations. If there is no audible difference, or if it’s impossible to tell which sounds better, then that's the definitive proof that you don't need analog hardware in the studio, as analog distortion can be easily emulated if desired! However, the problem will be that your studio will rarely be booked, because a room full of unnecessary hardware often creates a "wow" effect for many people "gg".
I had the very same thought sitting a few rows behind you. When JJ’s achieving mixes like that 100% ITB then i concluded 1/2 way through the seminar I did need to spend what I have in past year on analog gear. And I was VERY glad my wife was not in the audience lol. Commercially for mixers, it does not make sense. Maybe for producers and much more for recording engineers it makes more sense. Am I gutted I spent 5x that on outboard? Not at all. I knew going in that ITB was much more efficient both practically and commercially. BUT. For experimental and educational purposes I don’t regret a penny. In fact once I buy protools and figure out the rest of JJ’s chain i’ll fill in the gaps. I already have 80% of the analog equip of his chain. And SHMC been ordered since. But my needs are different from startup/small scale mixers or large commercial mastering factories. I only have one client and I’m not on the clock. So in conclusion if I had the aim of setting up a small mix suite then I would say 25k mostly on 500s would be a waste if money. Interface, high end channel strip and rest on speakers and room correction i think would be better. But you’re 100% and the biggest takeaway from that seminar. Whatever tools are used. It is the skill of the mixer that matters. What plugin or hardware used will have little bearing on the mix if the skill is not there. So investing in those skills and the tile to learn is next stage for me. In meantime just hire in the talent. Thanks for the two vids on the seminar. Great work!
I worked in a million dollar studio back in 2000s. It had the SSL 9000 and 4000. Doesn’t get better then that. With tons of outboard gear. Back then yes you needed that gear. Today you can still use it. But I can make a really great mix just using plugins and my RME interface. Plugins have caught up finally. And now if you are using outboard gear it’s for preference not out of necessity.
plugins make amazing music but still no where near hardware plugins still lack depth and 3Dness and a polish that plugins still struggle with again not to say you cannot get good masters in the box
I've been through analog gear, summing mixers, compressors, SSL Fusion & BusPlus etc. I've settled in high end digitally recallable mastering analog gear. I mix into the chain and bypass the limiter. It's by far the best solution I've come up with. You have to know what your'e doing but you can get to hear what the finished track sounds like. Then you print itb. Then send it back through the chain plus a few plugins and limiter on. Finished track. Sorted.
Super interesting. I’ve just come across your videos through your review of the Jaycen Joshua seminar. I too was at that seminar, and I too have a hybrid setup albeit less than you have. I too came ash wondering if it was worth continuing and have already done a few experiments to test that theory. My conclusion… not sure! Either way I wish I had Jaycen Joshua’s ability to see what needs doing with a mix so quickly!! Cheers
It seems that the biggest problem is going back to old work. What was the compressor and EQ set at for the bass? Where was the panning done, where were the levels? This seems to be the biggest problem. Analog does sound better and you just reach for a knob and get what you want, digital is a nightmare because of all the "tricks" needed to know for setting up the OS, the DAW, the plug-ins, etc, but with digital things won't change when you go back to the tracks 2 months later and automation is built in. Using detailed cue sheets with analog is time consuming but that's what is needed. Still automation is what's needed. Digital is only good when it's 24 bit, 96khz.
When I first started recording with a DAW I literally used it like my old tape machine. 16 in/16 out thru my old Mackie 8 buss desk. These days I do everything ITB, except for vocals going in, which I sometimes track thru my old TLA Ivory if I want some overdrive to do some screaming. Even then, Cubase's stock "Da Tube" sometimes sounds better (actually used both on my GnR covers). For the money I wanna spend and the amount of people who will listen to my songs, ITB works best for me, at my skill level.
Absolutely. Analog feels good and plugins pick up the slack where analog can’t help me (dynamic EQ, multi-band comp, side chaining etc). Best of both wins for me
It comes down to what gets you to the result you're after. It also depends on the genre of music and the instruments your mixing. You can argue people like Andrew Scheps has mixed multi-platinum records all in the box, but also remember, how much outboard gear was all that tracked through on the way in. A lot of the mojo is baked in during the tracking stages so if you're starting with great recordings to begin with then... Getting you're sound right from the source is the key.
It depends on the plugin, some plugins can get close to the real analog gear and some don't. Also you are absolutely right, the skill in the end is what matters most.
Hey Ed. First: super interesting Video. So thanks for this. I would love to have some outboard gear for tracking. Since 3 years i am working with the Apollo X4 and its good. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to make a comparison with real preamplifiers so far. but I could imagine that there are certain advantages. Thanks and greetz. Carsten ✌🏼
Watch this space for a Neve preamp comparison. Thanks for supporting the channel. Can’t go wrong with the X4, you can make some killer vocal input chains
I track through analog gear on the way in then I subtractive EQ, clip or compress then route to the outboard gear 1. Kick 2. Bass 3/4. drums 5/6. Keys/guitars 7/8. Vocals for compression/EQ/saturation and limiting to the A to D conversion to computer #2 for overall balance and EQ multi band compression and EFX I have a small mixing room with treatment but I still do all of my mixing decisions with headphones because it’s easier to hear my EQ moves and I play through the mains to check the low end. In the box does things better and the rack gear does things better. I don’t trust one size fits all situations
Analog has a nice look to it, gives one the sense of street cred, but it's importance has dwindled. My preference is analog compression for vocal tracking and that's about it. I guess I also go hybrid with guitar amp's using 100 watt heads into Two Notes Torpedo Studio. Digital or analog, the limiting factor is essentially down to ability, creativity, and experience.
what analog is good for, saturating the bass with sine waves instead of distorting with square waves in digital. Dre would slam the kicks and bass in a tape and would come out perfect.
I think gear does not really matter in the mixing realm , i always mix in the box so i can make surgical mixng decisions . To me, the room + monitors (reference) & skill are more important than the type of EQ or Compressor i use
I interned in a professional studio that had some high-end outboard gear and I’ve always been absolutely obsessed with hardware emulations. I used to track through an Avalon 737 almost every day and after I left that internship I ended up buying the UAD plug-in version. It was so close it was practically a jump scare. But a few months later I bought a couple high-end 500 series modules pretty much exclusively for tracking guitar and vocals and they absolutely BLEW me away. I had some limited experience w analog gear as mentioned before but really I was mixing and producing exclusively in the box for about 15 years before that. I’m still a heavy believer that plug-ins these days are so close that the average listener up to even some advanced engineers wouldn’t be able to tell the difference but there is absolutely that extra something and I don’t think it’s worthless by any means. There’s something to be said for getting it right at the source in a way that digital can’t really accomplish to the same degree imo. So I think analog in the tracking stage (and really nailing it) really still is the way to do it and get the best results. What you do after that simply comes down to skill and knowledge of the tools. But if it makes you feel better that stuff isn’t a waste of money and the reasons extend even past the sound quality itself. When somebody walks into your studio and they see that gear they instantly gain confidence. Sometimes that means more then most people understand.
After years of listening to people like Jaycen who preach the ITB gospel, I finally realized what this video highlighted. You have to get it right on the way in. You can do that so much easier with properly selected and utilized analog gear. I've got a hybrid setup. I use analog pre-amps and compressors on the way in. I really like API pre amps for the transients. You can tame them but it's difficult to get after the fact. I have a cranborne R8 so I can easily patch any of those peices of gear into any spot without touching any wires. It essentially feels like I'm using plugins, but I get knobs and a peice of hardware to interface with. I don't really see a huge need for outboard eq other than maybe a pultec or some other high end eq on the mix bus. Filters are a whole different thing. My pre amps have high pass filters built in and utilizing that is a game changer.
after what Waves tried to pull on people a couple of months ago, i think its important more than ever to own analog gear just in case something similar happens again
Some analog will always hold value, and even better if you can multi-purpose it for tracking and mixing (like I’ve tried to). I was amazed Waves back-tracked.
Been considering getting a neve (not a clone) 1073 DPA to re track stems and track vocals through… - because cumulatively the difference is blatant, and having that at the start of the mixing would be an easy step up. then potentially a bus compressor or something for the mix bus… but the digital bus processors like Shadow Hills A and Softubes are really good now so it’s not a necessity. The routing and all that is a head blag though I have an Apollo Twin X, and I know the converters are cleaner than the previous models. But I’m still not sure if I’d need a separate piece of gear to A>D D
I moved to hybrid this year. I too think it gives more depth and frankly easier for me to get the sound I’m looking for more quickly. I also learned doing FOH on analog consoles so to me it is more natural to turn physical knobs. Could I achieve great mixes ITB? Sure. Is the difference worth the money I spent? Maybe. Do I enjoy the process and the creation more, 100% yes -and since my studio is more about having fun, helping people then I think my investment was worth it.
I’m pro whatever makes someone feel most creative, and gets them to the end point the fastest. For me, I love the ease and consistency of digital…with midi controllers. Adjusting channelstrips with a channelstrip controller (Rocksolid Audio Micro 4k), and having the ability to move faders and knobs (Behringer XTouch) give me the best of both worlds. Your mileage may vary.
Excellent video. In my view, the performance of plugins versus hardware is pretty much a wash ….but there is something special about reaching for a knob and tweaking a box you know like the back of your hand. I am all about the hybrid approach.
The key to a great mix, is good tracking. And that entails good performances, sources, rooms, mics and preamps. If that's done right, a good mix is largely levels. Then EQ, where hardware and ITB are largely one and the same thing. Then there's dynamics and that's where the path forks. One question to ask is, putting commercial aspect aside, when you listen to Jaycen Joshua's productions: do you feel that they sound good, or bad? It's personal and subjective. But I suspect the answer to that question seperates the camps that would lean more toward hardware or software. I know how I feel. But, even then, hybrid is still the common sense choice because of budget, and practicality (automation/recall, especially). The ITB people are targetting a very specific sound, for their market. With layers of extensive processing. And software suits that. Each to their own.
Cannot compare the process of staring at a screen (to see where the knobs are going, is the mouse in the right place) to putting your hand on a rotary and turning it without even looking to see what you're doing and using your ears to get the desired result. The analog compressors I have compared in real life have always beaten the plugins. But if you're not using them properly, then there's no conversation to be had about which sound better.
Serban Ghenea has won a total of 19 Grammy Awards and three Latin Grammy Awards. He mixes completely in the box. So yeah you probably should have spent that money on amazing monitors, that would have made a much bigger difference than a bunch of 500 series modules. If you can't hear it you can't engineer it 😊 Analog is a disease that we all catch at some point in our careers, but it's very liberating when it's cured. Tho it's a very expensive round trip.
I dunno man, I've heard amazing recordings done on a Slate modeling mic, vs 20k microphone chains with the nicest gear. The performance and the engineer knowing what they're doing and the room plays more of a role than the equipment had.... even in TRACKING.
I track straight to the DAW and use patchbays to route to all my analog gear and fine tune the sound of each track. Is it faster and more flexible doing it digitally yes and no, the recall is great but I have noticed since I began using more analog gear in my songs theres a lot less work to do on the back end so it’s subjective in a way. I still prefer the sound of analog over digital 90+% of the time.
I have tube pre amps and the rest is in the box but man if I had the money I would have distressors a Stamchild, 1176', and Newton channels. The list would endlessly grow I'm sure. It's what we love doing you can't feel bad about spending money on your passion.
As a well known Mic Builder who was also an AE going back to the 70s told me 10yrs ago: "Plugins are getting better all the time but for compression (especially) the math simply isn't there to perform 20db of GR without artifacts. Here we are 10 years later and recently I went to a buddies great studio to mix and we tested his Cranesong Trakker against a shwack of plugins. Even with 10 yrs of processing power advancement, the Trakker still could suck -20db and we could get very aggressive with no audible artifacts. So you're on point re analog pres and comps I believe. But for timed based stuff, there have been massive improvements. So much so that this same chap with the Trakkers sold his Bricasti M7 (#7 so he was one of the first to get one) around 5yrs ago simply because he found the M7 IRs along with several others just as good and he wanted to sell it before it ended up just being a brick as valuable as an Alesis MidiVerb ;) Oh and my "troll comment" that you welcomed on the intro lol. Analog pres are beTT3R!; has WARN Audio (Kneve) mic amps that are simply a facade of the real circuit. Great River NV2 (designed by Wes Audio who I see you've invested in, heavily), Avedis, Aurora...whole slew of options that are legit and not fakes 😉 Cheers and cool channel!
I can’t hear the troll in your comment😜 Yeh, I didn’t even mention artefacts in this video (saving that, with Aliasing, for another Analog Vs Digital video) but it’s a good point. I couldn’t justify a Bricasto so went for AMS RMX16. Haven’t used it yet 🤣
I'm a believer in having tools you may never need, until that day you need them. So no you haven't wasted your money. My first piece of analog gear was a Art Pro VLAII compressor. Having it at my fingers helped me to get to understand how compression works. I'm a believer everything sounds better through analog outboard gear. I'm like you using a hybrid set up. There are certain plugins I can't live without like the MV2. So in conclusion for me, No you didn't waste your money, you just use a different set of tools. Awesome set up Ed, love the idea with 500 series equipment especially that patchbay. I hope to expand my beer budget studio set up one day soon. Keep the videos coming.
I have a hybrid setup similar to you: lots of stereo racks, some 500 units separately and one or two mono pieces. My purpose for analog is simply for character. All my corrective stuff is ITB. But it’s perfectly okay for experimentation with gear to provide sources of inspiration to us in the moment just as much as it is to sound good. Whatever helps us stay connected to the process and on our journey is what’s important. Ultimately, so long as you are finishing music in whatever fashion you aspire; writing, mixing, mastering… that’s what is important. How you get there is not. Consistent releases/product is more important in this generation than the the quality of music was previously. Peoples tastes are s***! The vast majority of people are less invested in music and artistry, peoples attentions spans are shorter and so interest to any discipline is watered down. Music is served to our fingers before it is our ears so long gone are the generations of talents like Stevie Wonder etc. The saying is hard work beats talent until talent beats hard work has never been truer. Ultimately, you could use talent as a metaphor for analog gear - it only benefits your music if you are achieving consistency. Otherwise, what’s it got to add value to besides your electricity bill! If analog gear helps keep you interested in your journey, that for the most part is worth the investment.
People do gear shootouts to determine whether plugins can beat hardware. While those shootouts do measure something, the incremental audible difference between hardware and software, they don't measure one thing: whether a song sounds good to human ears. That depends on the human ears making the song, and crafting the mix. That is about awareness and consciousness. It has been shown in every genre that high quality music can be mixed without outboard gear. Due to massive workflow advantages, only time remains before most records are mixed ITB.
To answer rhe vid title by myself Yes and no Yes if you focus on soundresults and have knowledge on whats outthere to mix in the box No if you love the workflow with hardware and love hardware in generell In 2024 and counting you can get pro results with soft and hardware
I love analog. I mix in analog about 80% of the time for indie rock and alternative stuff. I’ve got a 2” tape machine in here for Pete’s sake. The thing that matters is that you’re working in a way that makes it efficient for you to deliver high quality results. If the analog stuff is saving you enough time to offset its cost and let you take more work, or improving your results enough to get you enough additional work, then it’s clearly the right way for you to work. If it’s not, then you’re right to question the investment. Analog comes with a lot of interesting logistical challenges, and getting efficient is important. I spent a LOT of time designing my workflow and investing in the gear necessary to make sure I could automate everywhere I needed to and wasn’t losing hours upon hours to printing things.
I use analog to create a sound. Take my 8 outputs of my Akai mpc put them through a analog chain, sum them and then record. Same with drum machines, use all the separate outputs into a console, color them etc. For me it is a way to create a unique sound.
The non linear processes would be Aliasing free in the analogue domain. But that's easily remedied by oversampling and Anti Aliasing filters. We need to mix in the box for perfect recall in this world of endless revisions.
You may have over bought some things as we have done, however the difference with these so called pro mixers and what they do not often tell you is they are mixing already world class stems that have already gone through high-end gear with pristine precision that cannot be achieved on a Rhode mic and focusrite Scarlett out of someone's bedroom. A mixer in that situation is already working with house money, so of course they can stay ITB, but remember the tracks did not start that way. Many of these mixers do not explain the full story, because often they are sponsored by the plugin companies and their job is to sell you more product, get you hooked and then eventually go subscription. These mixers did not learn their skills on plugins, but actual hardware as they both behave differently. With analog/hybrid you will always own it, learn it and become better overall as it's limitations is what creates mastery as a bunch of options often leads to stagnation. It takes me longer to mix with pure plugins than with analog. Also since I have mixed professionally recorded tracks, the process is even quicker, because aside from maybe tone shaping and leveling, it is over 80% there. Now again did you overspend??? Yeeeeeaaa 😅😂 but hey as long as you had/have fun then what the hell because you cannot take a dime of it with you once this ride is over.
@@EdThorne aye many thanks mate I appreciate it. I'm right there with you when I look at my accounts for buying gear lololol. But like you said we love it. Keep up the good work and I really enjoy the channel. 👍
your mix sounds phenomenal! Doesn´t matter what device you listen through after release, you can clearly hear if the production is shit.. (shit recording,mix and mastering). When I look for a mix engineer, i look for engineers who´s has both A/D and of cause I listen to the reference to make sure they got the skills to work it out .. :)
I haven't checked in with Jaycen recently but I believe he still does do analog summing over an SSL console into Lavry Gold converters... so likely headroom for days that an average person with a laptop is going to experience when it comes to ITB. I personally produced and mixed ITB out of financial necessity for the past 20 years (couldn't afford outboard gear), until more recently I've been in a better place to afford it and I've been building a hybrid setup. I absolutely love it! I have everything running over normalled patchbays into good analog converters and I've made it so I can merely audition the hardware in my rack with the same ease of a plugin, enable/bypass with a click. Yes the downside there is recall is not automatic and I can't save "presets," but maybe because I'm not working on jobs with crazy deadlines and last minute feedback, I honestly don't mind at all. I weirdly enjoy taking my time and disconnecting from computers & screens, working with my hands. It makes me feel more engaged with the craft, reliant on my ears when turning knobs, and I actually feel like it's making me a better mixer and producer to really hear what these tools do in the analog realm and not have presets to recall immediately. Secondly, I am noticing a vast improvement in my headroom. Not a subtle difference, but a major one. I used to have issues with my all-ITB mixes feeling choked in spite of everything, and if I hit my master bus slightly too hard the clipping was always a bit nasty. With hybrid I'm hearing a lot more spatial depth and headroom, so even if I do hit the hardware master bus chain slightly too hard, the soft-clipped saturation sounds glorious and depending on the music sometimes even desirable, something I never experienced all ITB :) As someone who is more of a composer & producer (than a professional mixer), I feel like I make music differently, too. I really enjoy tracking with nice pres and compressors on the way in, whether that's a gentle kiss, or even sometimes destroying something intentionally, using a compressor as a tone box for unique types of saturation and color. Either way I love Hybrid and I don't mind the extra time and steps it takes - which helps me think about music and songwriting in a new way! I will still sometimes mix ITB though, especially if I were to take on a project with tight deadlines, which to me is the reason I think a lot of pro mixers have gone that route fully because the demand-to-pay ratio has shifted so dramatically in recent years.
For recording is analog gear the best but I alway's record a split channel with no outboard fx so when I mix and the sound I recorded doesn't work in the final track I can go back to the (clean) original recording . For mixing I do almost everything in the box .
If you have the skills(im sure you do),and optimized your room and monitoring first, and above all , you're coming up with results you are really happy with, then i don't think you wasted your money on analog gear, rather used your tools to full potential and took advantage of what the analog has to offer vs staying itb. This offset the cost imo. If you think you are able to get "same" mixes quality without struggling more and putting more effort and time, satying itb , then u can consider downsizing maybe. In both cases happy mixing
One thing for sure is that it looks very good for the video. :)That said. The recall every button at each session part , I couldn’t. And it not even about does it sound good or not.
Great video and thanks for sharing your experience! A few things...Maybe not base a decision on 1 other person's experience, there are a lot of factors that differentiate him from the way you work. And to your point, how was the audio recorded/tracked that he's mixing? I'm assuming it was recorded via analog gear? As for the signal chain, I think it comes down to your goals. I have an acoustic drum kit and I get better results with analog pre-amps in a 500 series lunch box vs an audio interface. I prefer standard parametric EQ's so I do that ITB, but I do like and have analog (1176, Opto) compressors. And it really does come down to skill and the way you like to work, turning physical knobs feels better then moving my mouse. Lastly, especially with 500 series gear, you can try and if it does not work out, replace with something else. On the down side it can be like learning to play golf, every $1000 dollars improves you by .01% :), for example, I have the Shadow Hills Compressor plugin, but I'd love to get the $2500 analog version, is the difference (that I can hear) worth the extra $2475 cost? Hell no, but...
@@EdThorne I have... 3 mics - (Glyn Johns layout) Beta52 on KD // C314 overhead // SM57 (near floor tom, facing SD) going into 3 pre-amps (camden 500 2x, SSL SiX CH) in a RND R6 lunch box audio interface into Logic, with EQ plugins and outboard I/O into analog 1176 for drum bus
@@EdThorne thanks! it's an awesome desk, unfortunately a bit out of my budget , 2.3 grand holy crap. lucky for me i'm good with my hands. i've found the assembly manual of this desk and i'm pretty confident i can build something similar looking myself. so i guess i'm a carpenter now? new hobby unlocked.
Hybrid is the way to go, in my opinion. I have lots of gear and I find I’ll achieve the result I’m after, faster, the more analog gear I use. Things are smoother, elements sit better and the mix gels quickly and nicely. I have done great 100% ITB mixes, but ideally, it’s best to use plugins on individual tracks and have an analog mix bus. Sure, recall is a pain… but I don’t see myself selling off my gear. I also favor a retro / tube vibe… as I record of lots of 50’s and 60’s covers.
My vision for analog gear is to really THINK about everything before buying something. For that reason, I stayed from (most) clones like IGS or Warm for example. First because when I compared the clone to the original, with these brands, on the one I compared (not all) I heard a noticeable difference. And also because clone like this have very low resale value. Which is an important factor to weight when buying outboard gear. I also thinks a lot of analog gear, especially more modern design, tend to suck up some of the low-end sometimes if they don’t have SC filters. Which in that case I am better using plugins. I think analog gear is only justifiable for me for these reasons : - It has no aliasing when abused. - It has a higher resale value than plugins. So it is useful to have in case of financial emergency. If I really need money, I think I’ll be able to sell my Neve 1073 for 800£ pretty quickly for example. - It makes enjoy my job. Because it is my job so I gotta make sure I enjoy it as much as possible. And I hate staring at a computer screen all day. So analog gear, in the end, makes me happy and makes me feel good when I use it. Although this last point only works for analog gear that I like the sound of. If I am 10% hesitant about a piece of equipment I’ll get rid of it. Cheers!
I think the only way for an engineer to slove the analog digital question is through a careful cost benefit analysis. Nowadays they are both so good that sonic comparisons really just go in circles. Theres no right answer, just what makes sense for the space and the clients.
A porsche is much faster and and fun to drive than a Honda. But if you are delivering the world's best pizza with either, it will taste just as good when it gets there. What is necessary to get the job done?
I'm an analog guy, because it feels good and its tangible like you said, also because i'm starting getting old 😀 and that makes sens to me, because i don't like clicking the mouse, and i also think it still sounds better to me, especially compressors, also i don't like to "rent" plugins. BUT i really think we have turned into another area and that analog is now part of the past. ITB is so much more powerfull, flexible, and infinitely less expensive. I'm planning/dreaming of mooving into a small house and making my home studio and i'll be glad to keep my analog gear and certainely buy few more stuff for recording like a use console, maybe a midas venice, for micpres and workflow while tracking but i think digital is the thing now, at least for mixing.
It's all about experience and skill. After I spent 60k in a full analog studio (synths, fx, mastering fx) I sold nearly everything because I leaned what to do in digital domain to achieve similar results. The money is not wasted, because the experience stays forever. And there are some analog units that I still love and use.
Money spent in things that a) make you happy (like analog gear does to me) and b) gets you better sounds (whether they are really better or perceived) is MONEY WELL SPENT.
lol yi went down this rabbithole, for a decade 30 grand in and now out, i kept my prism lyra and a 1073n, the 500 series never could hold a weight and density tracking compared to my thermionic culture, and as my mixing got better and the right plugins and such, now my paintbrushes and small itb rig sound as good as the records i loved, its a tough pill but true, its in the mix these days, and sony mdr7506 translate great to small bose systems realworld stuff etc, just make sure the tracking chain pre ad and clock is great then your away, prism get it done
I think analog, as you seem to agree, is more important for tracking than it is for mixing. So unless you're tracking -- which it doesn't seem like you are -- than I would think that you could sell your analog gear and invest in a high yield savings account so you can actually get a return on that investment😂
I am tracking in the studio. I’m also forward planning (and purchasing) for my career goal studio when I buy a house. So most of it I’ll keep for those plans. 🤘
After years of mixing through an expensive hybrid setup I recently challenged myself to take finished hybrid mixes and and put them back in the box to see how close I could match them. To my shock and dismay I started to notice that not only could I match my hybrid mixes but I was actually liking the ITB versions more. The hybrid mixes just sounded like they were pushing and smearing up against an invisible ceiling whereas the ITB mixes just felt open and effortless. Now I have to figure out what to do with all my gear 😢
Interesting. For sure there's some plugins that create space and openness, the UAD PulTec for example, so I use it for space. The low end on my IGS RBEQ sounds much better though so I use both. Result!
I went through the same process. When I converted my studio to Atmos I went full digital because I sold all my analog gear to fund the conversion. And I my surprise, my mixes were instantly better. By comparison my hybrid mixes were mushy for a lack of a better term. The digital mixes were so much clearer and open and punchy. Not sure when plugins and daws surpassed analog but they definitely have 🤔
@OfficialEllis tell that to Serban Ghenea 🤣 Also: Andrew Scheps, Tchad Blake, Michael Brauer, Dave Pensado, Phil Tan, etc. I'm sure you've heard of these guys and their amazing in the box mixes. Maybe you need to justify the money you wasted on analog equipment. There's nothing wrong with spending money on something you enjoy just realise that it's not needed, just wanted, there is a difference.
I’ve subscribed to Paul 3rd years ago, love his channel. I’m hybrid… I track my vocals, half of my bass and a 1/4 of my guitars through analog gear. 3/4 of My drums and synths and orchestral tracks are virtual instrument track so I still need analog gear. I found a way to master my track through analog gear and record it to a CD which allows me to clip a little then burn the recorded track from the CD back into the computer. I love that Jayson Joshua’s God Particle too
I am a mix engineer over 20 years of experience, I mix 100 % in the box, and I am so happy with the digital environment ,if you use correctly , no problem to achieve a great sound, my opinion you didn't wasted your money, because if you are happy with this equipment you simply going to print that feeling in your mixes, just need a lot of practice and be very aware with the recall procces, so enjoy your amazing studio! some people spend much more than this, in cars, a Ferrary is better to take you somewhere than corolla? ,no, but the owner is driving his dream 🙂🙂😉😉
I am 100% with you, there is a difference when it comes to depth, the smearing of sounds. But I am not an analog snob. I have tried mixing songs 100 otb but failed, because with my set up it meant bouncing track for track through gear and losing the big picture. Software is simpler, faster and sounds very good. My current workflow that I am really satisfied with is a hybrid. All eq, comp etc is in the box but I have four reverb send / returns that go to my hardware reverbs: pcm 70, 91, tc4000, tegeler and rmx16. The reverbs are a lot better than sw reverbs at supporting depth, definition between instruments etc.
Philosophy: How -should- a specific instrument sound in the mix? It's subjective. But you develop a sonic fingerprint of what works and what doesn't. Then you develop the techniques to get there. Monkeying the steps you see in a tutorial because this is what X does to their mixes is very beginner level. Listening to something and having the experience and the knowledge of how to get it from where it is to where it needs to be is what's essential. Remembering how you solved previous issues and putting that into yoru mental toolbox is great. Being realistic: Software emulations are less expensive, portable, can have their exact settings saved and recalled, can be substantiated in ridiculous numbers. You can take a break from a mix or jump into an "emergency" session on someone else's mix. When you're done, you can jump back to yours. A client can call you up six months down the road and fix a song that they insisted the snare drum be way out in front and now realizes it needs to be tamed down 3dB and a little EQ magic on it. Done in 5 minutes. Pay me for the hour or whatever the minimum is. Schep talks about doing mixes entirely in the box simply for the ability to absolutely recall everything-everything and even taking the entire project into a completely different workspace and want for nothing. I love analog gear. I love thwacking some 2" tape that's tweaked up to print extra hot. I don't miss having a fixed amount of gear. I don't miss cleaning and maintaining equipment. I don't miss the electric bill on keeping all that gear hot and the room cool. $30k is a nice chunk of change. Unless it can be made back in additional revenue (more billable hours, higher rates etc.), you might just be gassing yourself.
My weird view on this is that too many times people mix and master for other engineers and ignoring the most important point - does the audience notice the difference of mixing for 4 hours vs mixing for 4 weeks? I know the target is to mix and master for posterity, but there is a point where the mix already sounds good and people start tweaking stuff that is not audible or is just not relevant to the whole mix. K.I.S.S. applies, as always. As for the analog vs digital, you work with what you like to work with. The most important part is to practice and learn with the stuff that you have. Outboard gear has it's perks and downfalls (I personally love tweaking with analog stuff, just for the happy accidents).
Having started in 1993 I can state that analogue gear sounds great. But I have to be honest, plug-ins and emulation in 2023 is almost indistinguishable in a full mix. Add multiple instances, MASSIVELY less initial outlay, no maintenance no running cost, a lot more free space, no heat, instant recall, etc etc etc. There’s only one winner most of us who can’t afford 25k of analogue gear. And I have to be honest, I wouldn’t spent it on anomalous gear even if I had the cash lying around. For me the proof is in the pudding: I’ve been entirely in the box for three years now. And I’ve never looked back. Just my 2p’s worth!
Fair enough, man. It’s whatever works for you. For me it’s all about the learning experience too. Where do plugins come from, why do they try and emulate analog, etc.
No mate, if it works for you and makes your life easier it's not wasted! The difference is in the process not the result. I bet it makes your decision-making quicker and it would limit you in a positive way. Like: not having to scroll through 1000 plugins to choose an EQ, applying the compressor to the whole drums aux rather than every single mic, etc...). It's also great to have the option to look away from the screen occasionally which will help you focus on what you hear in most cases. I personally would always prefer to track analog where possible as that's where I think you can really make the most out of your hardware and get the extra benefits (depth etc..). Another benefit is having the advantage of monitoring through the signal chain and hearing a nearly finished sound as you track (even though you can do that with the Apollo interface too), the ease and speed of making decisions on the spot and committing to it, and all before the audio gets converted to digital and downsampled. Like you said it's in the skills ultimately.
Thanks, Matteo. Yeh, long term I’ll hopefully track more stuff through the analog. Seem to be limited to Vox, acoustics and bass atm. Drums is tricky because I use the Evos for their smart gain when I’m on my own.
" Like: not having to scroll through 1000 plugins to choose an EQ, applying the compressor to the whole drums aux rather than every single mic, etc...)." oh come on, you should have a good idea of what you want to do and then decide how you do it. Then its only a difference of which knob or button to select. ITB is far quicker for me. "the ease and speed of making decisions on the spot and committing to it, and all before the audio gets converted to digital and downsampled." where did you accumulate all these myths? Once its on tape, your commited all right. In the digital world......just do it again. Tracking is the only logical reason for analogue gear. The rest is work flow and how you perceive it.
Are you ITB, Analog, or Hybrid?
➡ Jaycen Joshua Seminar Review Video: th-cam.com/video/e5I5ZIhRgfQ/w-d-xo.html
I'm hybrid but about 95% of that is ITB lol. The other 5% is my mixbus chain and printing vocal stems thru my vocal chain if I know they tracked their own vocals with an interface.
@@subtonic24 Sounds like a solid set up. Analog where needed and convenience elsewhere.
Absolutely! I’ve Been Mixing Here In Atlanta For 30 Years! Came Up On SSL, Neve & Trident But My Friend Glen Schick Moving Completely In The Voice Inspired Me To Go For It Although I Have Tons Of Vintage Outboard Gear From Over The Years From API, Dbx, Focusrite, Bae, Drawmer, and Manley. But Because I’ve Used The Actual Hardware And Understand What It Should SoundLike And How It Should Be Used. I Get Great Results Now Totally ITB. Thanks For The Discussion 👌 Spent My Available Cash On Speakers And Amazing Conversion
90 itb, 10 otb. Just preamp and Channel strip for record acoustic sources and for GTR reamping, and a summing mixer for the last step in mastering.
I record ITB and then send the session to a studio with a console and peripherals 👍
I've been working in the music industry for 25+ years. I mix full time. Between 150 - 200 projects a year. I'm a freelancer so I'm mostly working with people who are recording at home so the tracks I get to work with are usually less than ideal. I do have a few pieces of hardware but I'm working %75 ITB and I get KILLER mixes time and time again. I know this to be true because I have a proven track record and my clients return time and time again. I also compare my work to the stuff on the charts all the time. Yes, there is a difference but I'm almost positive the difference is more from the tracks I am being provided to work with than from my skillset or tools. Getting it right at the source is BY FAR the most important thing. The tools will only take you so far and it doesn't matter if they are digital or analog at that point. That's what I've learned over all these years.
That’s great, Matt, sounds like you’re smashing it! The key to all of this is good stems is the general consensus.
@@EdThorne For sure. Getting it right at the source is by far the most important part of a good mix. Even tho it really has nothing to do with mixing. I use the same plugins and hardware for almost every mix I work on. So I'm consistently using the same stuff to do the work. So if it was the gear that mattered, in theory, every mix should sound pretty much just as good as the last one. We all know that's not how it works tho lol. The quality of the performances matters quite a bit too. If you have good recordings performed by people who can actually play/sing well then you are off to the best start you can be. Those two things are the most important. After that, it's knowing what to do with the tracks when you get them. If I had to put a number on it, in my experience anyway, the tools you use to get the job done account for about 30% of the whole picture. I've mixed everywhere from world-famous control rooms to the train lol. I've done mixes that were 100% analog and 100% digital. I rarely find myself saying, "man if I only had (insert plugin/hardware name here) that would be all I need to knock this mix out of the park". I often find myself saying, "if these guitars were recorded better the whole mix would sound so much better"!
Anyway, I'm rambling. Thanks for listening hahaha!
If you are the same matt NYC that is on gear space then I appreciate reading your posts over there.
@@RealHomeRecording Hey Adam! While I do post on gear space every now and again, unfortunately I'm pretty confident I'm not the Matt you speak of lol. I'm not very active there usually. Sorry to disappoint haha!!
@@matt_nyc_audioengineer Yes it's true for mixes. The only thing that sounded true (one pro was saying...) was that in "mastering stage" (where you want that extra 5% of magic) working with some extra analog gear is much more forgiving if you make any small mistake where with digital you have to do everything almost perfect for top result. I don't even mix in computer (everything on a outside high end keyboard workstation) and I've reached progress using the same stuff over and over and I found quickly is better to work with the same tools for years getting best with it than constantly changing the plug'ins and making a big mess everytime ... :)) I use only some transformers at mastering stage and a high end preamp makes sence when recording vocals which again conforms your point that the recordings must be top notch and you are already 90% there - if you know how to mix reasonably well of course. Years ago I thought: I have a bad gear, I should work with computer, than 5 years later my mixes are 100 times better with the same tools, so it's not so much gear as knowledge and expirence. The tehnology nowdays (ITB mixing) is good enough so you can make great mixes. 20 years ago was a different story, but not today. As I said, maybe in mastering stage makes sence to add some analog stuff in the chain ...:)
When I moved from outboard gear (including an analogue desk) to ITB, it took me a long time to get the same quality of results I previously achieved. This, like most things, was down to skill, knowledge of my gear and not the gear itself. A monkey with a mouse is not an audio engineer with decades of experience.
Great analogy!
The big things for me are ergonomics, the experience, and inspiration. Being able to turn a knob vs use my mouse is significant in all 3 places. It's significantly less wear and tear on my arm (I've had 3 surgeries), it feels tangible which tends to allow me to really feel the music more intimately, and of course because of that I'm inspired to work and have fun doing so!
I’d rather spend 25k on 4 amazing analog pieces and work 95% in the box.
Hardware experience (especially consoles) changes the way you use a DAW and Jaycen certainly wouldn't be on that level without it.
Hardware Vs plugins are a completely different workflow for sure! I need to develop more consistent gain staging with my analog I think.
The old debate hardware v digital…All the famous top end ITB mixers like Andrew Scheps receive their audio that’s been tracked through analogue….Ed mentioned this….this kills the debate. By all means use a EQ plugin to tweak a vocal tracked with a U87 and Neve preamp 1176-LA2A hardware chain….but don’t think for one minute a plugin chain will beat a quality hardware front end.
Analog for tracking, digital for mixing. That's all you need. So, if you can use the outboard you use for mixing for recording, I think it worth it.
The plan was to use it for both. I’m using some of it for track and have plans to use all of it when I can get into my career goal studio.
This.
100% agree here. If your tracks have mojo in the first place you can mix from there in the box after the fact. I also believe in the tracking phase to create a vibe and I do the "live and die" by it method (at least 80% of the time) and have it all baked in (modulation, effects, good and bad noises, etc).
that is my exact game plan.
since i have u gathered here may i ask, what nice slow compressor would you guys recommend for vocals ?
in a dual comp setup where i already have a quick vca one ( max 8ms on attack)
trying not to break the bank with a cl1b :s
and also how hard u guys go on A/D converters ??
im on a adi-2 which became the weakest link in my chain but i have no reference point to know how much better it could get
@@LordBiffMusic For my 500 series rack I love my Hairball FET/500 Revision D for vocals. For my AD/DA I am using a Cranborne 500ADAT chassis so it takes care of that and then some.
For an Opto type compressor I can't recommend the Audio-Scape Opto Compressor enough especially for the price you pay. Love their gear! I also have a Revive-Audio modded ART VLA II (I went with the Cinemag add on) that was very affordable and is excellent after the mod.
If you are willing to make a switch and have an interface with 500 series the Cranborne 500R8 might be worth a look as it it does a lot and has A/D and Adat and summing built in. If i did things over I would of gone with that as my do it all piece.
Analogue is awesome! However, for simplicity, space and $ sake, I've been recording completely in the box with my Apollo for half a decade and never looked back. Awesome video and content as usual Ed, thanks for all you've done for our audio community!
“Never look back” is good advice, otherwise you’ll forever be second guessing yourself. Be decisive & stick to your guns. ✌️🍷🎩🎩🎩
Thumbs up for experience before any software or hardware you use. I have been mixing for 25 years. I first started with a Mackie Digital 8 bus and an Otari Radar 24 ch. recorder. From their the owner of that studio built an enormous studio with Studer 827As, Pro Tools, Outboard gear AND an SSL 9k!!! Worked their for many years, mixed many albums in that console, although only recorded to tape once; drums, bass and guitars and bounced into Pro Tools. Then I built a hybrid studio in my house and started doing side projects in there. I would sometimes mix in my studio then go mix the same song on the console, not only did it sound better but I worked much faster. But some projects wouldn’t have the budget for the console so I had to work in my home studio. Then I went to a studio with Oxford consoles, and although they are the best faders I’ve worked on, the sound wasn’t like the SSL. Then I stopped going to this studios and worked a lot in my home studio, I kept getting better with the hybrid system, and I was working faster and the budgets for the projects kept reducing!! So there was no going back. Then I started working with a producer who had two SSL 4ks. My first mixes sucked! So it was a hit and miss thing. The problem was I was doing the same things ITB and using the console as a summing mixer, but the color was getting in my way. Although the last mixes I did on it were much better, recalls were a nightmare. And we had a lot of clients so I couldn’t afford the time wasted. Came back to my hybrid mixing and just did the best I could. One day I moved to another city and didn’t want the hassle of reconnecting everything. I was working on one project that started in the hybrid system and decided to finish it 100% ITB. The results after adjusting some levels, especially drums and bass was negligible to me and to the band. Since then I stayed ITB and didn’t look back. In my experience, having to know how to get great results is the key. If you can get them with gear, go ahead! Still the recording process does have to have at least great mics, mic-pres and a/d conversion. That is a must!
Great video, well said!
I have a hybrid setup. Doing my own shootouts analog hardware is better than plugins, but the difference is very subtle and slight. and if you record with analog gear it's practically non-existent. what matters is getting the harmonic saturation and natural warmth at some point in the signal chain. If you get it during the recording stage you won't need it later on. The issue now is that most people aren't mixing with hardware they're using on board preamps in a low end interface (looking at you focusrite 2i2) and giving it to you to mix. so putting it through hardware will make it a lot faster to mix - notice i didn't say BETTER - as your skill, room, ears, taste will always take you so far and if you have goals/vision that doesn't align with the client well then it's a bad mix. the analog gear i got is a bus compressor, distressor, api preamps (probably gonna sell), and a BAE (neve) 1028 pre/eq. Essentially I got a great signal chain to record vocals and acoustic guitar at the highest quality. granted my current space isn't a place to record any of those things well (i got all of that in my old place which was great for this stuff). In any case I think having a GREAT vocal chain these days is everything. get a top notch preamp and compressor combo (i highly recommend what i got rn) and don't skimp by buying warm audio it's not nearly as good, if you wanna save some cash get stam audio or a bunch of other brands that are slightly more money but much better quality (i've also heard a bit about quality control issues with warm).
So did you (or me) waste the money? Depends on your client base and how much you value your time (assuming you save a LOT of time with analog gear). here's the important thing too: if you don't like what you have, you can easily sell it for most of your money back, and in some cases i've actually earned a few dollars upon resell. it is VERY difficult to sell plugins these days. and in some cases nearly impossible to transfer licenses. plus analog hardware rarely becomes obsolete where as plugins can sound inferior after a few years. if you have the work or spare cash and record more than mix, it may be better to buy hardware. if you are only mixing, i don't think it matters much: whichever way works best for your workflow.
I went from full studio with Neve V72 Otari Tape machines PTs and about £70k of outboard. To a hybrid mixing system based around a neve 8816 and 8804 summing system about 10 years ago . Kept a lot of the outboard for a few years and slowly realised the recall is genuinely impossible even with neves fancy recall software . It was never the same and as I got to working on more Media composition quick recall became essential and the benefits of my outboard g series bus comp and ancient pultecs where getting smaller and smaller .
Hence 11 years in from closing the studio in now entirely ITB. I’ve kept a few choice bits for tracking but essentially I’m down to one rack with 5 units init . That’s it .
I could never go back to analog again now .
And how did the sound changed? Did your increased skillset matched the missing analog gear (im not a native speaker)?
The thing I noticed about analog since my journey. The amount of headroom I have, the depth, and the sonic character from the gear. I love the hybrid approach.
Yeh, this is true!
I’m a tracking and mixing studio so having a console and outboard gear is very important for getting sounds how I want them. When mixing I’m itb unless someone wants to pay for analog mixing which is more because if recall. Honestly most clients don’t care how I mix it as long as it sounds good. If I was just a mix engineer I’d opt for a nice master bus chain.
As you said in the video, these guys are getting top tier recordings to mix. Plus decades of experience interning with other pros. Cheers
I spent 30k on a analog hybrid set up. Spent 50k moving to Nashville to go to Blackbird because it's a gear addicts dream. After all that, I sold all of it because the gear is not the problem. If we could buy great recordings with gear everyone would. You still have to play your instruments and write great music which is hard.
It's more important to learn proper recording and mixing techniques, but at the end of the day the gear are tools, an SM7 didn't sing Thriller for Michael Jackson, Aretha Franklin voice doesn't come with a U47. It starts at the source.
You can make great recordings with a Behringer x18 and budget mics.
I did one mix on the hybrid set up that I thought truly had an awesome analog sound, but other mixes in the box were better and easier to recall.
Unless you have an assistant, clients these days want recalls galore for the smallest adjustments. The analog gear didn't improve my mixes at all. It was more expensive and cumbersome.
Well said! I’m tempted to try some mixes using the analog for pre-mixing and printing and then going fully ITB. Trial and error.
@@EdThorne I mean I don’t think there’s a wrong way. It’s just about the workflow that you want.
I definitely had a lot of fun using compression on the way in with a real compressor and all that jazz and at one point I had a TG one and that was amazing on drums and I would use it in parallel on pretty much everything. It was a lot of fun I definitely don’t blame anyone for having analog gear . I just found that there was other things that I need to focus on to make a good song or a good mix
Hey man some great points were made here I think you're correct The recording source if it's high quality it makes all of the difference
Thanks! It’s one common denominator of all the “celebrity” mix engineers (besides decades of experience) - flawless sounding stems… can’t go wrong!
It’s such a catch 22. I really do love the warm audio stuff for the quality and affordable. Running through that stuff during tracking I feel and hear the slight improvements
I find subtle EQ and compression on the way in makes a huge difference, especially on vocals. Can’t knock the WA stuff for the money.
Did you say ”Warm Audio” (the company) for quality??? If thats the case then LOL
I stick to Audioscape and Stam (even Black Lion)- happy to own no Warm (as poor as I am lol) woukd feel like buying Behringer ( tho I’m sure Warm are better humans then behrnger ceo
Forget about "which sounds better," I ask myself "which is more enjoyable and whats the value of enjoying what I do"? Theres my equation. Hybrid setup here
Here here! I much prefer knobs and buttons than finger tracking.
Hybrid, I think you touch on the main driver for me it's the tangible feedback. I tweak a knob I hear the results. I often feel a disconnect with plugins and tend to lean into presets rather than play with it and find what sounds right, meanwhile understanding the why behind it
The main question you should ask yourself is "Am I pleased with my work flow and why do I even work as a mixing engineer"? I am sure it is not only to get the most number of streams. It must be because you have fun doing it and love mixing. There only rule is that there are no rules - everbody works differently each in their own way and the most important is the result and sonic experience. So if you are happy with your setup and the results are great you have wasted 0 $.
Analog Rules!! gets you there in no time.
No, you didn't "waste" your money. If a hybrid workflow is how you like to work then embrace it and move forward. I hear a lot of "this person mixes hit records and only uses, blah, blah, blah",....Andrew Scheps mixes on $100 headphones,....this big time mixer does this, etc, etc. As you said, if you get impeccably record raw tracks you're more than halfway there. It's one of the differences between truly pro and not.
Cheers, Billy. You’re very right. More over, I just LOVE 500 stuff, it’s a joy to use.
Analog hardware has the benefit of no latency. Which is a Really Big benefit, especially when it comes to automation. I am not aware of any daw that has perfectly addressed the issue of plugin latency compensation with automation.
Mannnn that desk and set up is utterly beautiful. Major props man.
Thanks. It’s a Zaor Miza Flex 2: th-cam.com/video/xhBC87J2BkU/w-d-xo.html
Great video Ed! You have awesome gear. I don't think you wasted your money, but I do think you have a few modules that do roughly the same thing or do things that plugins can do (much faster). When I buy analog gear, I always do my research and demos to make sure that there is either no plugin equivalent or the plugin equivalent is not nearly as good as the hardware. This strategy has worked very well for me. I have owned or used most of the modules you have, I can tell you that there is no plug-in that does what the RM HD456 does; so that is a smart investment though you need one more. The SSL G Bus 500 is also another module that regularly outshines the plug-in equivalent, so another smart buy. The WES Audio stuff is great but imo there are plugins that work just as well. When I had them, I found that I used the recall function much less than I expected. I had similar experience with the API EQs, they are awesome but I sold them after I used the UA version. I kept my Maags because imo they sound much more 3D than the plugins. I love the SSL EQs but again I felt that I got similar performances from UA and PA plugins. I also enjoyed the Harrison EQs but again I had the UA version which sounds very similar.
I would say with analog gear; it's good to limit yourself to what you absolutely need for your workflow and nothing else. I have come to learn (the hard way) that the beginning and the end of the signal chain are very important investment as well. IF you asked me; in your case I would trim off on some modules that don't get much use and upgrade your monitoring system - perhaps something with DSP and bigger drivers than your current system (Genelecs, Geithain, PSI). No doubt you will hear a difference and that can contribute to building your skills.
Hey there. Thanks for the feedback, some great comments there. Yeh, I definitely got suckered into the GAS of 500 series - they’re like adult Pokémon cards 🤣 I’ve just rotated a few pieces out (video in the way) for those exact reasons. I agree with your assessment of most of those pieces besides the APIs. They have a depth like no plugin I’ve ever heard. And, yeh, I’ve considered upgrading my monitoring but my room is a bigger problem so I don’t think it’s worth the investment atm. I fell in love with PMCs in LA but would probably go ATC. Genelecs are good but not for me.
@@EdThorne Absoultely! Man 500 series are so cute and collectible though 🤣
Having grown up with analog and tape machines and analog hardware, I sold off almost all of my anaolg gear back in the 2000's and went ITB. After using that for 15 years I started buying analog gear again and began inserting it back into my workflow. Mostly in the tracking stage but mixing as well. Without a doubt, analog gear sounds better than plugins, but the truth is, some plugins will do things analog can't without spending many tens of thousands of dollars. A hybrid setup is the way to go. There are advantages to each platform.
Hybrid is the best of both worlds. We need plugins for side chaining, dynamic EQs and multi-bands.
Brill vid Ed. Thanks for being so transparent about your thought process re mixing.
My pleasure! I hope it inspired.
After mixing ITB for about 6 years, I've been looking into analog gears.
That's how I found your channel, Ed. I've been using emulation plugins for years and recently.
I started tracking vocals through an ITB chain (0 latency plugins), mostly with Neve1073 style Pre & EQ, then an 1176 and LA2A. My goal is to familiarize myself with the committed settings on the way in. At first, I was making a big mess most of the time but I believe I got better after a couple of months.
And I guess I'll be making some mistakes when I actually use analog units but it's quite necessary imo.
Trial and error, of course.
Sounds like you’re in the Apollo world of DSP processing on the way in! It’s great! Goes a long way to improving raw audio for sure! Analog is a whole other beast of gain staging. I had to completely re-learn the concept for the different format. Still tweaking it for consistency.
Start by recording the same signal with the same microphone. Record the signal once through the expensive analog hardware and once directly through the digital interface. Then, leave the analog track as it is and process the digital recording with analog plugin emulations. If there is no audible difference, or if it’s impossible to tell which sounds better, then that's the definitive proof that you don't need analog hardware in the studio, as analog distortion can be easily emulated if desired! However, the problem will be that your studio will rarely be booked, because a room full of unnecessary hardware often creates a "wow" effect for many people "gg".
I had the very same thought sitting a few rows behind you. When JJ’s achieving mixes like that 100% ITB then i concluded 1/2 way through the seminar I did need to spend what I have in past year on analog gear. And I was VERY glad my wife was not in the audience lol. Commercially for mixers, it does not make sense. Maybe for producers and much more for recording engineers it makes more sense.
Am I gutted I spent 5x that on outboard? Not at all. I knew going in that ITB was much more efficient both practically and commercially. BUT. For experimental and educational purposes I don’t regret a penny. In fact once I buy protools and figure out the rest of JJ’s chain i’ll fill in the gaps. I already have 80% of the analog equip of his chain. And SHMC been ordered since.
But my needs are different from startup/small scale mixers or large commercial mastering factories. I only have one client and I’m not on the clock.
So in conclusion if I had the aim of setting up a small mix suite then I would say 25k mostly on 500s would be a waste if money. Interface, high end channel strip and rest on speakers and room correction i think would be better.
But you’re 100% and the biggest takeaway from that seminar. Whatever tools are used. It is the skill of the mixer that matters. What plugin or hardware used will have little bearing on the mix if the skill is not there. So investing in those skills and the tile to learn is next stage for me. In meantime just hire in the talent.
Thanks for the two vids on the seminar. Great work!
I worked in a million dollar studio back in 2000s. It had the SSL 9000 and 4000. Doesn’t get better then that. With tons of outboard gear. Back then yes you needed that gear. Today you can still use it. But I can make a really great mix just using plugins and my RME interface. Plugins have caught up finally. And now if you are using outboard gear it’s for preference not out of necessity.
plugins make amazing music but still no where near hardware plugins still lack depth and 3Dness and a polish that plugins still struggle with again not to say you cannot get good masters in the box
Plugin compressors suck they just don’t measure up
I've been through analog gear, summing mixers, compressors, SSL Fusion & BusPlus etc. I've settled in high end digitally recallable mastering analog gear. I mix into the chain and bypass the limiter. It's by far the best solution I've come up with. You have to know what your'e doing but you can get to hear what the finished track sounds like. Then you print itb. Then send it back through the chain plus a few plugins and limiter on. Finished track. Sorted.
Super interesting. I’ve just come across your videos through your review of the Jaycen Joshua seminar. I too was at that seminar, and I too have a hybrid setup albeit less than you have. I too came ash wondering if it was worth continuing and have already done a few experiments to test that theory. My conclusion… not sure! Either way I wish I had Jaycen Joshua’s ability to see what needs doing with a mix so quickly!! Cheers
It seems that the biggest problem is going back to old work. What was the compressor and EQ set at for the bass? Where was the panning done, where were the levels? This seems to be the biggest problem. Analog does sound better and you just reach for a knob and get what you want, digital is a nightmare because of all the "tricks" needed to know for setting up the OS, the DAW, the plug-ins, etc, but with digital things won't change when you go back to the tracks 2 months later and automation is built in. Using detailed cue sheets with analog is time consuming but that's what is needed. Still automation is what's needed. Digital is only good when it's 24 bit, 96khz.
Amazing video Ed, appreciate the honesty! Fair play to you haha. Followed the podcast now 🎉
Awesome, thanks for the support.
When I first started recording with a DAW I literally used it like my old tape machine. 16 in/16 out thru my old Mackie 8 buss desk. These days I do everything ITB, except for vocals going in, which I sometimes track thru my old TLA Ivory if I want some overdrive to do some screaming. Even then, Cubase's stock "Da Tube" sometimes sounds better (actually used both on my GnR covers). For the money I wanna spend and the amount of people who will listen to my songs, ITB works best for me, at my skill level.
I’ve always loved the Knobs and switches at the reach of your fingertips
Nothing beats turning a knob and getting it right, but sometimes plugins are preferred
Absolutely. Analog feels good and plugins pick up the slack where analog can’t help me (dynamic EQ, multi-band comp, side chaining etc). Best of both wins for me
It comes down to what gets you to the result you're after.
It also depends on the genre of music and the instruments your mixing.
You can argue people like Andrew Scheps has mixed multi-platinum records all in the box, but also remember, how much outboard gear was all that tracked through on the way in. A lot of the mojo is baked in during the tracking stages so if you're starting with great recordings to begin with then...
Getting you're sound right from the source is the key.
Absolutely!
It depends on the plugin, some plugins can get close to the real analog gear and some don't. Also you are absolutely right, the skill in the end is what matters most.
And some plugins do things analog can’t. I like having the best of both worlds.
Hey Ed. First: super interesting Video. So thanks for this. I would love to have some outboard gear for tracking. Since 3 years i am working with the Apollo X4 and its good. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to make a comparison with real preamplifiers so far. but I could imagine that there are certain advantages. Thanks and greetz. Carsten ✌🏼
Watch this space for a Neve preamp comparison. Thanks for supporting the channel. Can’t go wrong with the X4, you can make some killer vocal input chains
@@EdThorne Will do, thanks. Main focus is tracking guitars, bass, drums. 😃✌🏼
I track through analog gear on the way in then I subtractive EQ, clip or compress then route to the outboard gear 1. Kick 2. Bass 3/4. drums 5/6. Keys/guitars 7/8. Vocals for compression/EQ/saturation and limiting to the A to D conversion to computer #2 for overall balance and EQ multi band compression and EFX
I have a small mixing room with treatment but I still do all of my mixing decisions with headphones because it’s easier to hear my EQ moves and I play through the mains to check the low end.
In the box does things better and the rack gear does things better. I don’t trust one size fits all situations
IMO tracking in small space studios can only be done using headphones and analog gear.
Analog has a nice look to it, gives one the sense of street cred, but it's importance has dwindled. My preference is analog compression for vocal tracking and that's about it. I guess I also go hybrid with guitar amp's using 100 watt heads into Two Notes Torpedo Studio. Digital or analog, the limiting factor is essentially down to ability, creativity, and experience.
what analog is good for, saturating the bass with sine waves instead of distorting with square waves in digital. Dre would slam the kicks and bass in a tape and would come out perfect.
I think gear does not really matter in the mixing realm , i always mix in the box so i can make surgical mixng decisions . To me, the room + monitors (reference) & skill are more important than the type of EQ or Compressor i use
Skill before gear, for sure!
You’ve got a lot to choose from for source recording. No waste. Keep it all and get really good with it.
That's 100% the plan 🙂
I interned in a professional studio that had some high-end outboard gear and I’ve always been absolutely obsessed with hardware emulations. I used to track through an Avalon 737 almost every day and after I left that internship I ended up buying the UAD plug-in version. It was so close it was practically a jump scare. But a few months later I bought a couple high-end 500 series modules pretty much exclusively for tracking guitar and vocals and they absolutely BLEW me away. I had some limited experience w analog gear as mentioned before but really I was mixing and producing exclusively in the box for about 15 years before that. I’m still a heavy believer that plug-ins these days are so close that the average listener up to even some advanced engineers wouldn’t be able to tell the difference but there is absolutely that extra something and I don’t think it’s worthless by any means. There’s something to be said for getting it right at the source in a way that digital can’t really accomplish to the same degree imo. So I think analog in the tracking stage (and really nailing it) really still is the way to do it and get the best results. What you do after that simply comes down to skill and knowledge of the tools. But if it makes you feel better that stuff isn’t a waste of money and the reasons extend even past the sound quality itself. When somebody walks into your studio and they see that gear they instantly gain confidence. Sometimes that means more then most people understand.
After years of listening to people like Jaycen who preach the ITB gospel, I finally realized what this video highlighted. You have to get it right on the way in. You can do that so much easier with properly selected and utilized analog gear. I've got a hybrid setup. I use analog pre-amps and compressors on the way in. I really like API pre amps for the transients. You can tame them but it's difficult to get after the fact. I have a cranborne R8 so I can easily patch any of those peices of gear into any spot without touching any wires. It essentially feels like I'm using plugins, but I get knobs and a peice of hardware to interface with. I don't really see a huge need for outboard eq other than maybe a pultec or some other high end eq on the mix bus. Filters are a whole different thing. My pre amps have high pass filters built in and utilizing that is a game changer.
after what Waves tried to pull on people a couple of months ago, i think its important more than ever to own analog gear just in case something similar happens again
I think that was a better example of how much say customers have over business decisions like that 😂😂 never seen a company backtrack so quickly
Some analog will always hold value, and even better if you can multi-purpose it for tracking and mixing (like I’ve tried to). I was amazed Waves back-tracked.
i left waves since that day 🙂
Been considering getting a neve (not a clone) 1073 DPA to re track stems and track vocals through… - because cumulatively the difference is blatant, and having that at the start of the mixing would be an easy step up.
then potentially a bus compressor or something for the mix bus… but the digital bus processors like Shadow Hills A and Softubes are really good now so it’s not a necessity.
The routing and all that is a head blag though
I have an Apollo Twin X, and I know the converters are cleaner than the previous models. But I’m still not sure if I’d need a separate piece of gear to A>D D
I moved to hybrid this year. I too think it gives more depth and frankly easier for me to get the sound I’m looking for more quickly. I also learned doing FOH on analog consoles so to me it is more natural to turn physical knobs. Could I achieve great mixes ITB? Sure. Is the difference worth the money I spent? Maybe. Do I enjoy the process and the creation more, 100% yes -and since my studio is more about having fun, helping people then I think my investment was worth it.
Nailed it. It’s about having FUN! Completely agree!
I’m pro whatever makes someone feel most creative, and gets them to the end point the fastest. For me, I love the ease and consistency of digital…with midi controllers. Adjusting channelstrips with a channelstrip controller (Rocksolid Audio Micro 4k), and having the ability to move faders and knobs (Behringer XTouch) give me the best of both worlds. Your mileage may vary.
Excellent video. In my view, the performance of plugins versus hardware is pretty much a wash ….but there is something special about reaching for a knob and tweaking a box you know like the back of your hand. I am all about the hybrid approach.
Thanks, Mick.
The key to a great mix, is good tracking. And that entails good performances, sources, rooms, mics and preamps. If that's done right, a good mix is largely levels. Then EQ, where hardware and ITB are largely one and the same thing. Then there's dynamics and that's where the path forks. One question to ask is, putting commercial aspect aside, when you listen to Jaycen Joshua's productions: do you feel that they sound good, or bad? It's personal and subjective. But I suspect the answer to that question seperates the camps that would lean more toward hardware or software. I know how I feel. But, even then, hybrid is still the common sense choice because of budget, and practicality (automation/recall, especially). The ITB people are targetting a very specific sound, for their market. With layers of extensive processing. And software suits that. Each to their own.
Cannot compare the process of staring at a screen (to see where the knobs are going, is the mouse in the right place) to putting your hand on a rotary and turning it without even looking to see what you're doing and using your ears to get the desired result. The analog compressors I have compared in real life have always beaten the plugins. But if you're not using them properly, then there's no conversation to be had about which sound better.
Serban Ghenea has won a total of 19 Grammy Awards and three Latin Grammy Awards. He mixes completely in the box. So yeah you probably should have spent that money on amazing monitors, that would have made a much bigger difference than a bunch of 500 series modules. If you can't hear it you can't engineer it 😊
Analog is a disease that we all catch at some point in our careers, but it's very liberating when it's cured. Tho it's a very expensive round trip.
Ha. Thanks for the heads up. Yeh, Serban’s done alright. I’m enjoying analog for now and I’m on the search for good monitors atm.
I dunno man, I've heard amazing recordings done on a Slate modeling mic, vs 20k microphone chains with the nicest gear.
The performance and the engineer knowing what they're doing and the room plays more of a role than the equipment had.... even in TRACKING.
100%!
I track straight to the DAW and use patchbays to route to all my analog gear and fine tune the sound of each track. Is it faster and more flexible doing it digitally yes and no, the recall is great but I have noticed since I began using more analog gear in my songs theres a lot less work to do on the back end so it’s subjective in a way. I still prefer the sound of analog over digital 90+% of the time.
I have tube pre amps and the rest is in the box but man if I had the money I would have distressors a Stamchild, 1176', and Newton channels. The list would endlessly grow I'm sure. It's what we love doing you can't feel bad about spending money on your passion.
I have the hardware distressor and the UAD distressor...not one difference. Please save ya money
The list will endlessly grow. Especially with 500 series, they’re like adult Pokémon cards 🤣
As a well known Mic Builder who was also an AE going back to the 70s told me 10yrs ago: "Plugins are getting better all the time but for compression (especially) the math simply isn't there to perform 20db of GR without artifacts. Here we are 10 years later and recently I went to a buddies great studio to mix and we tested his Cranesong Trakker against a shwack of plugins. Even with 10 yrs of processing power advancement, the Trakker still could suck -20db and we could get very aggressive with no audible artifacts. So you're on point re analog pres and comps I believe. But for timed based stuff, there have been massive improvements. So much so that this same chap with the Trakkers sold his Bricasti M7 (#7 so he was one of the first to get one) around 5yrs ago simply because he found the M7 IRs along with several others just as good and he wanted to sell it before it ended up just being a brick as valuable as an Alesis MidiVerb ;)
Oh and my "troll comment" that you welcomed on the intro lol. Analog pres are beTT3R!; has WARN Audio (Kneve) mic amps that are simply a facade of the real circuit. Great River NV2 (designed by Wes Audio who I see you've invested in, heavily), Avedis, Aurora...whole slew of options that are legit and not fakes 😉 Cheers and cool channel!
I can’t hear the troll in your comment😜 Yeh, I didn’t even mention artefacts in this video (saving that, with Aliasing, for another Analog Vs Digital video) but it’s a good point. I couldn’t justify a Bricasto so went for AMS RMX16. Haven’t used it yet 🤣
I'm a believer in having tools you may never need, until that day you need them. So no you haven't wasted your money. My first piece of analog gear was a Art Pro VLAII compressor. Having it at my fingers helped me to get to understand how compression works. I'm a believer everything sounds better through analog outboard gear. I'm like you using a hybrid set up. There are certain plugins I can't live without like the MV2. So in conclusion for me, No you didn't waste your money, you just use a different set of tools. Awesome set up Ed, love the idea with 500 series equipment especially that patchbay. I hope to expand my beer budget studio set up one day soon. Keep the videos coming.
Thanks! Yeh, MV2 is great. Defo check out the Flock - unbelievable piece of kit!
I have a hybrid setup similar to you: lots of stereo racks, some 500 units separately and one or two mono pieces. My purpose for analog is simply for character. All my corrective stuff is ITB. But it’s perfectly okay for experimentation with gear to provide sources of inspiration to us in the moment just as much as it is to sound good. Whatever helps us stay connected to the process and on our journey is what’s important. Ultimately, so long as you are finishing music in whatever fashion you aspire; writing, mixing, mastering… that’s what is important. How you get there is not.
Consistent releases/product is more important in this generation than the the quality of music was previously. Peoples tastes are s***! The vast majority of people are less invested in music and artistry, peoples attentions spans are shorter and so interest to any discipline is watered down. Music is served to our fingers before it is our ears so long gone are the generations of talents like Stevie Wonder etc. The saying is hard work beats talent until talent beats hard work has never been truer. Ultimately, you could use talent as a metaphor for analog gear - it only benefits your music if you are achieving consistency. Otherwise, what’s it got to add value to besides your electricity bill! If analog gear helps keep you interested in your journey, that for the most part is worth the investment.
People do gear shootouts to determine whether plugins can beat hardware. While those shootouts do measure something, the incremental audible difference between hardware and software, they don't measure one thing: whether a song sounds good to human ears. That depends on the human ears making the song, and crafting the mix. That is about awareness and consciousness. It has been shown in every genre that high quality music can be mixed without outboard gear. Due to massive workflow advantages, only time remains before most records are mixed ITB.
From big analog console to hybrid to itb. I have abandoned analog equipment in mixing for years. But I still use analog as much as I can in mastering.
Analog in and out seems to be the consensus. 🔥🤘
To answer rhe vid title by myself
Yes and no
Yes if you focus on soundresults and have knowledge on whats outthere to mix in the box
No if you love the workflow with hardware and love hardware in generell
In 2024 and counting you can get pro results with soft and hardware
I love analog. I mix in analog about 80% of the time for indie rock and alternative stuff. I’ve got a 2” tape machine in here for Pete’s sake. The thing that matters is that you’re working in a way that makes it efficient for you to deliver high quality results. If the analog stuff is saving you enough time to offset its cost and let you take more work, or improving your results enough to get you enough additional work, then it’s clearly the right way for you to work. If it’s not, then you’re right to question the investment. Analog comes with a lot of interesting logistical challenges, and getting efficient is important. I spent a LOT of time designing my workflow and investing in the gear necessary to make sure I could automate everywhere I needed to and wasn’t losing hours upon hours to printing things.
I use analog to create a sound. Take my 8 outputs of my Akai mpc put them through a analog chain, sum them and then record. Same with drum machines, use all the separate outputs into a console, color them etc. For me it is a way to create a unique sound.
I want all the compressors, all the preamps, and all the eqs. I want it all.
The non linear processes would be Aliasing free in the analogue domain. But that's easily remedied by oversampling and Anti Aliasing filters. We need to mix in the box for perfect recall in this world of endless revisions.
You may have over bought some things as we have done, however the difference with these so called pro mixers and what they do not often tell you is they are mixing already world class stems that have already gone through high-end gear with pristine precision that cannot be achieved on a Rhode mic and focusrite Scarlett out of someone's bedroom. A mixer in that situation is already working with house money, so of course they can stay ITB, but remember the tracks did not start that way. Many of these mixers do not explain the full story, because often they are sponsored by the plugin companies and their job is to sell you more product, get you hooked and then eventually go subscription. These mixers did not learn their skills on plugins, but actual hardware as they both behave differently. With analog/hybrid you will always own it, learn it and become better overall as it's limitations is what creates mastery as a bunch of options often leads to stagnation. It takes me longer to mix with pure plugins than with analog. Also since I have mixed professionally recorded tracks, the process is even quicker, because aside from maybe tone shaping and leveling, it is over 80% there. Now again did you overspend??? Yeeeeeaaa 😅😂 but hey as long as you had/have fun then what the hell because you cannot take a dime of it with you once this ride is over.
100%! I suspect your assessment of the (celebrity) pros is spot on. I may have overspent but I love it! 🤘
@@EdThorne aye many thanks mate I appreciate it. I'm right there with you when I look at my accounts for buying gear lololol. But like you said we love it. Keep up the good work and I really enjoy the channel. 👍
your mix sounds phenomenal!
Doesn´t matter what device you listen through after release, you can clearly hear if the production is shit.. (shit recording,mix and mastering). When I look for a mix engineer, i look for engineers who´s has both A/D and of cause I listen to the reference to make sure they got the skills to work it out .. :)
The setup looks amazing! Analogue makes it feel more like a spaceship and is so much more fun.
Haha. It feels like a space ship for sure 🤣
Music in space, such a pleasure.
I haven't checked in with Jaycen recently but I believe he still does do analog summing over an SSL console into Lavry Gold converters... so likely headroom for days that an average person with a laptop is going to experience when it comes to ITB.
I personally produced and mixed ITB out of financial necessity for the past 20 years (couldn't afford outboard gear), until more recently I've been in a better place to afford it and I've been building a hybrid setup. I absolutely love it! I have everything running over normalled patchbays into good analog converters and I've made it so I can merely audition the hardware in my rack with the same ease of a plugin, enable/bypass with a click. Yes the downside there is recall is not automatic and I can't save "presets," but maybe because I'm not working on jobs with crazy deadlines and last minute feedback, I honestly don't mind at all. I weirdly enjoy taking my time and disconnecting from computers & screens, working with my hands. It makes me feel more engaged with the craft, reliant on my ears when turning knobs, and I actually feel like it's making me a better mixer and producer to really hear what these tools do in the analog realm and not have presets to recall immediately.
Secondly, I am noticing a vast improvement in my headroom. Not a subtle difference, but a major one. I used to have issues with my all-ITB mixes feeling choked in spite of everything, and if I hit my master bus slightly too hard the clipping was always a bit nasty. With hybrid I'm hearing a lot more spatial depth and headroom, so even if I do hit the hardware master bus chain slightly too hard, the soft-clipped saturation sounds glorious and depending on the music sometimes even desirable, something I never experienced all ITB :)
As someone who is more of a composer & producer (than a professional mixer), I feel like I make music differently, too. I really enjoy tracking with nice pres and compressors on the way in, whether that's a gentle kiss, or even sometimes destroying something intentionally, using a compressor as a tone box for unique types of saturation and color.
Either way I love Hybrid and I don't mind the extra time and steps it takes - which helps me think about music and songwriting in a new way! I will still sometimes mix ITB though, especially if I were to take on a project with tight deadlines, which to me is the reason I think a lot of pro mixers have gone that route fully because the demand-to-pay ratio has shifted so dramatically in recent years.
For recording is analog gear the best but I alway's record a split channel with no outboard fx so when I mix and the sound I recorded doesn't work in the final track I can go back to the (clean) original recording . For mixing I do almost everything in the box .
If you have the skills(im sure you do),and optimized your room and monitoring first, and above all , you're coming up with results you are really happy with, then i don't think you wasted your money on analog gear, rather used your tools to full potential and took advantage of what the analog has to offer vs staying itb. This offset the cost imo. If you think you are able to get "same" mixes quality without struggling more and putting more effort and time, satying itb , then u can consider downsizing maybe. In both cases happy mixing
One thing for sure is that it looks very good for the video. :)That said. The recall every button at each session part , I couldn’t. And it not even about does it sound good or not.
Yeh, recall is a hassle but the FLock Audio Patch DX app makes this a hell of a lot easier!
Great video and thanks for sharing your experience! A few things...Maybe not base a decision on 1 other person's experience, there are a lot of factors that differentiate him from the way you work. And to your point, how was the audio recorded/tracked that he's mixing? I'm assuming it was recorded via analog gear?
As for the signal chain, I think it comes down to your goals. I have an acoustic drum kit and I get better results with analog pre-amps in a 500 series lunch box vs an audio interface. I prefer standard parametric EQ's so I do that ITB, but I do like and have analog (1176, Opto) compressors. And it really does come down to skill and the way you like to work, turning physical knobs feels better then moving my mouse. Lastly, especially with 500 series gear, you can try and if it does not work out, replace with something else.
On the down side it can be like learning to play golf, every $1000 dollars improves you by .01% :), for example, I have the Shadow Hills Compressor plugin, but I'd love to get the $2500 analog version, is the difference (that I can hear) worth the extra $2475 cost? Hell no, but...
You’re welcome, thanks for watching. Yeh, I assume JJ’s getting analog recorded chains. What’s your 500 series drum recording chain(s)?
@@EdThorne I have...
3 mics - (Glyn Johns layout) Beta52 on KD // C314 overhead // SM57 (near floor tom, facing SD)
going into 3 pre-amps (camden 500 2x, SSL SiX CH) in a RND R6 lunch box
audio interface into Logic, with EQ plugins and outboard I/O into analog 1176 for drum bus
I need to know where you got that desk!? Or did you build it yourself? If so, anything you can share about it?
It’s a Zaor Miza Flex X2 in Charcoal: EPIC Studio Desk Build! Zaor Miza X2 Flex
th-cam.com/video/xhBC87J2BkU/w-d-xo.html
@@EdThorne thanks! it's an awesome desk, unfortunately a bit out of my budget , 2.3 grand holy crap. lucky for me i'm good with my hands. i've found the assembly manual of this desk and i'm pretty confident i can build something similar looking myself. so i guess i'm a carpenter now? new hobby unlocked.
Maybe there's a fun factor when using analog gear as well? Maybe not unimportant when spending so much time producing/mixing?
There is a fun factor for sure when mixing. I'd say it's not relevant for producing but for recording - 100%!
Hybrid is the way to go, in my opinion. I have lots of gear and I find I’ll achieve the result I’m after, faster, the more analog gear I use. Things are smoother, elements sit better and the mix gels quickly and nicely.
I have done great 100% ITB mixes, but ideally, it’s best to use plugins on individual tracks and have an analog mix bus.
Sure, recall is a pain… but I don’t see myself selling off my gear. I also favor a retro / tube vibe… as I record of lots of 50’s and 60’s covers.
hybrid is the way you get the 3Dness and that sweet polish that plugins struggle to give
My vision for analog gear is to really THINK about everything before buying something.
For that reason, I stayed from (most) clones like IGS or Warm for example.
First because when I compared the clone to the original, with these brands, on the one I compared (not all) I heard a noticeable difference.
And also because clone like this have very low resale value. Which is an important factor to weight when buying outboard gear.
I also thinks a lot of analog gear, especially more modern design, tend to suck up some of the low-end sometimes if they don’t have SC filters. Which in that case I am better using plugins.
I think analog gear is only justifiable for me for these reasons :
- It has no aliasing when abused.
- It has a higher resale value than plugins. So it is useful to have in case of financial emergency. If I really need money, I think I’ll be able to sell my Neve 1073 for 800£ pretty quickly for example.
- It makes enjoy my job. Because it is my job so I gotta make sure I enjoy it as much as possible. And I hate staring at a computer screen all day. So analog gear, in the end, makes me happy and makes me feel good when I use it.
Although this last point only works for analog gear that I like the sound of. If I am 10% hesitant about a piece of equipment I’ll get rid of it.
Cheers!
I think the only way for an engineer to slove the analog digital question is through a careful cost benefit analysis. Nowadays they are both so good that sonic comparisons really just go in circles. Theres no right answer, just what makes sense for the space and the clients.
Have you checked out some of the Stam Audio 500 Series Compressors?
Yes. I have 2 x SA76s and an SA-3A🔥 My podcast audio and all vocals go through the SA3A.
A porsche is much faster and and fun to drive than a Honda. But if you are delivering the world's best pizza with either, it will taste just as good when it gets there. What is necessary to get the job done?
One gets it there while it’s still hot though 😜
I hear a much smoother and 3-D sound with Hardware I'm actually regretting buying a lot of the plugins I own especially WAVES.
I'm an analog guy, because it feels good and its tangible like you said, also because i'm starting getting old 😀 and that makes sens to me, because i don't like clicking the mouse, and i also think it still sounds better to me, especially compressors, also i don't like to "rent" plugins. BUT i really think we have turned into another area and that analog is now part of the past. ITB is so much more powerfull, flexible, and infinitely less expensive. I'm planning/dreaming of mooving into a small house and making my home studio and i'll be glad to keep my analog gear and certainely buy few more stuff for recording like a use console, maybe a midas venice, for micpres and workflow while tracking but i think digital is the thing now, at least for mixing.
It's all about experience and skill.
After I spent 60k in a full analog studio (synths, fx, mastering fx) I sold nearly everything because I leaned what to do in digital domain to achieve similar results.
The money is not wasted, because the experience stays forever. And there are some analog units that I still love and use.
Money spent in things that a) make you happy (like analog gear does to me) and b) gets you better sounds (whether they are really better or perceived) is MONEY WELL SPENT.
Exactly.
lol yi went down this rabbithole, for a decade 30 grand in and now out, i kept my prism lyra and a 1073n, the 500 series never could hold a weight and density tracking compared to my thermionic culture, and as my mixing got better and the right plugins and such, now my paintbrushes and small itb rig sound as good as the records i loved, its a tough pill but true, its in the mix these days, and sony mdr7506 translate great to small bose systems realworld stuff etc, just make sure the tracking chain pre ad and clock is great then your away, prism get it done
I think analog, as you seem to agree, is more important for tracking than it is for mixing. So unless you're tracking -- which it doesn't seem like you are -- than I would think that you could sell your analog gear and invest in a high yield savings account so you can actually get a return on that investment😂
I am tracking in the studio. I’m also forward planning (and purchasing) for my career goal studio when I buy a house. So most of it I’ll keep for those plans. 🤘
After years of mixing through an expensive hybrid setup I recently challenged myself to take finished hybrid mixes and and put them back in the box to see how close I could match them. To my shock and dismay I started to notice that not only could I match my hybrid mixes but I was actually liking the ITB versions more. The hybrid mixes just sounded like they were pushing and smearing up against an invisible ceiling whereas the ITB mixes just felt open and effortless. Now I have to figure out what to do with all my gear 😢
Interesting. For sure there's some plugins that create space and openness, the UAD PulTec for example, so I use it for space. The low end on my IGS RBEQ sounds much better though so I use both. Result!
I went through the same process. When I converted my studio to Atmos I went full digital because I sold all my analog gear to fund the conversion. And I my surprise, my mixes were instantly better. By comparison my hybrid mixes were mushy for a lack of a better term. The digital mixes were so much clearer and open and punchy. Not sure when plugins and daws surpassed analog but they definitely have 🤔
@OfficialEllis tell that to Serban Ghenea 🤣
Also: Andrew Scheps, Tchad Blake, Michael Brauer, Dave Pensado, Phil Tan, etc. I'm sure you've heard of these guys and their amazing in the box mixes. Maybe you need to justify the money you wasted on analog equipment. There's nothing wrong with spending money on something you enjoy just realise that it's not needed, just wanted, there is a difference.
@OfficialEllis I beat my summed mixes specifically by playing them side by side with my ITB mix, but ok 🙄
I’ve subscribed to Paul 3rd years ago, love his channel. I’m hybrid… I track my vocals, half of my bass and a 1/4 of my guitars through analog gear. 3/4 of My drums and synths and orchestral tracks are virtual instrument track so I still need analog gear. I found a way to master my track through analog gear and record it to a CD which allows me to clip a little then burn the recorded track from the CD back into the computer. I love that Jayson Joshua’s God Particle too
Sounds like you’re hybrid on the way in. If you ever need live drums, I record in my studio, too!
@@EdThorne Ok cool
nice video, subscribed
Thanks, Paul! I appreciate the support.
Is there any video, where you talk about that lovely desk you have?
Yes, there is: th-cam.com/video/xhBC87J2BkU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=fzYiwK47fKl9Wa6W
I am a mix engineer over 20 years of experience, I mix 100 % in the box, and I am so happy with the digital environment ,if you use correctly , no problem to achieve a great sound, my opinion you didn't wasted your money, because if you are happy with this equipment you simply going to print that feeling in your mixes, just need a lot of practice and be very aware with the recall procces, so enjoy your amazing studio! some people spend much more than this, in cars, a Ferrary is better to take you somewhere than corolla? ,no, but the owner is driving his dream 🙂🙂😉😉
I am 100% with you, there is a difference when it comes to depth, the smearing of sounds. But I am not an analog snob. I have tried mixing songs 100 otb but failed, because with my set up it meant bouncing track for track through gear and losing the big picture. Software is simpler, faster and sounds very good. My current workflow that I am really satisfied with is a hybrid. All eq, comp etc is in the box but I have four reverb send / returns that go to my hardware reverbs: pcm 70, 91, tc4000, tegeler and rmx16. The reverbs are a lot better than sw reverbs at supporting depth, definition between instruments etc.
From what I’ve heard analog reverbs sound way better. I have a comparison on the way. How’s the Tegeler verb?
I love it. My set up is room, plate, vocal and hall verb.
The rooms are just excellent on the tegeler.
Philosophy: How -should- a specific instrument sound in the mix? It's subjective. But you develop a sonic fingerprint of what works and what doesn't. Then you develop the techniques to get there. Monkeying the steps you see in a tutorial because this is what X does to their mixes is very beginner level. Listening to something and having the experience and the knowledge of how to get it from where it is to where it needs to be is what's essential. Remembering how you solved previous issues and putting that into yoru mental toolbox is great.
Being realistic: Software emulations are less expensive, portable, can have their exact settings saved and recalled, can be substantiated in ridiculous numbers. You can take a break from a mix or jump into an "emergency" session on someone else's mix. When you're done, you can jump back to yours. A client can call you up six months down the road and fix a song that they insisted the snare drum be way out in front and now realizes it needs to be tamed down 3dB and a little EQ magic on it. Done in 5 minutes. Pay me for the hour or whatever the minimum is.
Schep talks about doing mixes entirely in the box simply for the ability to absolutely recall everything-everything and even taking the entire project into a completely different workspace and want for nothing.
I love analog gear. I love thwacking some 2" tape that's tweaked up to print extra hot. I don't miss having a fixed amount of gear. I don't miss cleaning and maintaining equipment. I don't miss the electric bill on keeping all that gear hot and the room cool.
$30k is a nice chunk of change. Unless it can be made back in additional revenue (more billable hours, higher rates etc.), you might just be gassing yourself.
My weird view on this is that too many times people mix and master for other engineers and ignoring the most important point - does the audience notice the difference of mixing for 4 hours vs mixing for 4 weeks? I know the target is to mix and master for posterity, but there is a point where the mix already sounds good and people start tweaking stuff that is not audible or is just not relevant to the whole mix. K.I.S.S. applies, as always.
As for the analog vs digital, you work with what you like to work with. The most important part is to practice and learn with the stuff that you have. Outboard gear has it's perks and downfalls (I personally love tweaking with analog stuff, just for the happy accidents).
It’s is very easy to over tweak details no-one noticed but I like to believe success is in the details. What’s K.I.S.S.?
@@EdThorne It's an old saying from design world >> "Keep It Simple, Stupid" :D
Having started in 1993 I can state that analogue gear sounds great.
But I have to be honest, plug-ins and emulation in 2023 is almost indistinguishable in a full mix. Add multiple instances, MASSIVELY less initial outlay, no maintenance no running cost, a lot more free space, no heat, instant recall, etc etc etc.
There’s only one winner most of us who can’t afford 25k of analogue gear.
And I have to be honest, I wouldn’t spent it on anomalous gear even if I had the cash lying around.
For me the proof is in the pudding: I’ve been entirely in the box for three years now.
And I’ve never looked back.
Just my 2p’s worth!
Fair enough, man. It’s whatever works for you. For me it’s all about the learning experience too. Where do plugins come from, why do they try and emulate analog, etc.
No mate, if it works for you and makes your life easier it's not wasted!
The difference is in the process not the result. I bet it makes your decision-making quicker and it would limit you in a positive way. Like: not having to scroll through 1000 plugins to choose an EQ, applying the compressor to the whole drums aux rather than every single mic, etc...).
It's also great to have the option to look away from the screen occasionally which will help you focus on what you hear in most cases.
I personally would always prefer to track analog where possible as that's where I think you can really make the most out of your hardware and get the extra benefits (depth etc..).
Another benefit is having the advantage of monitoring through the signal chain and hearing a nearly finished sound as you track (even though you can do that with the Apollo interface too), the ease and speed of making decisions on the spot and committing to it, and all before the audio gets converted to digital and downsampled.
Like you said it's in the skills ultimately.
Thanks, Matteo. Yeh, long term I’ll hopefully track more stuff through the analog. Seem to be limited to Vox, acoustics and bass atm. Drums is tricky because I use the Evos for their smart gain when I’m on my own.
" Like: not having to scroll through 1000 plugins to choose an EQ, applying the compressor to the whole drums aux rather than every single mic, etc...)." oh come on, you should have a good idea of what you want to do and then decide how you do it. Then its only a difference of which knob or button to select. ITB is far quicker for me.
"the ease and speed of making decisions on the spot and committing to it, and all before the audio gets converted to digital and downsampled."
where did you accumulate all these myths? Once its on tape, your commited all right. In the digital world......just do it again.
Tracking is the only logical reason for analogue gear. The rest is work flow and how you perceive it.
@@andyfreeze4072 love how you completely missed every point of all that lol