FASCINATING!!! I think Tera is 1st class and brings some truly profound insights to the table. Salt is really troubling... Your team is doing an awesome job with production quality. 👏👏👏
I couldn't help but notice that you mention 'salt' and not 'sodium'. That is actually the question I am left with. Salt is a great flavour enhancer, but it is not the only one. I am thinking of sodium glutamate. I can't help but wonder whether it is really 'sodium' that is the culprit, or some specific sodium-containing substances.
It's kind of sad thinking about number of people involved into designing, producing, marketing, selling products which are harmful to human health. And despite all the technological progress of humanity, we still have not found a way to prioritise wellbeing of humans. Unhealthy food, alcohol, smoking, drugs, screens, social media...and list can go on.
I haven't really thought of it that way before, but you're right it is sad. We've got to wonder, since this is very slowly killing us (or at least causing massive disease), should we do anything about this on a regulatory/government level? If we dont make any changes, what will our society look like health wise in two, three, four decades?
@@nman6265 well, there were (some) attempts in various countries to do smth about regulating various businesses towards more sustainable sales, marketing, products, etc. But most of those attempts failed, due to the corporations influencing politiciants. I think probably the best example of at least some kind of focus on wellbeing in EU regulations (though some might see them excessive). I'd say EU focus on customer protection is probably the main benefit of EU itself. But, if to take more philosophical note - people are people. We were like this always - carried on by ego games, greed and confrontation. No wonder, we - Buddhists - call human realm - cycle of suffering.
Really interesting! My own experience has been that the more whole foods I eat the more UPF tastes awful - I missed them at first but now hyper palatable foods taste way too salty or sweet and it's actually become hard to eat out because like Simon says I've realised how much chefs rely on these to make 'tasty' meals. When people think that you are somehow missing out by eating WFPB they don't realise how quickly your taste can change, or how much they are actually being suckered in by these huge food manufacturing companies 😜
This is everything I've found to be true growing up as a fat kid. It was always the salty, savory stuff that really got me. I gave up soda in my teens, but was still slamming lettuce-wrapped burgers, cheese sticks, and microwave Atkins meals that my mom used to buy me. Lo and behold, never lost a pound until my late 20s when I finally discovered fiber. I found the discussion on protein interesting as well, because I also never understood the 'protein is the king of satiety' thing. That's never how it worked for me, but it's such an undisputed maxim in every health community. Glad to see it come under some scrutiny here.
Everyone should read the book "Something From the Oven" by Laura Shapiro, it discusses a lot of the history of processed foods which Tera alluded to here. Processed foods originated in WWII and companies built up infrastructure to produce it, then had no customers when the war ended, so these products were heavily marketed to domestic consumers. America's adoption of processed foods initially had nothing to do with a lack of time but advertising by tobacco company Phillip Morris, just as Tera explained.
Tera is brilliant! I appreciate her hesitance to pontificate about things without data, which is really a rare quality and makes me hold her opinions in that much more respect.
It's really not a shock to find out that the food industry is using the same tactics that the tobacco industry once used to sell these hyper-palatable foods. Profit is the only thing they care about. Sadly I don't think that our divided society now has the stomach for a "food fight" to get them to change their ways. The best way would probably be to cut the subsidies (in the Farm Bill) for those that produce products like corn, sugar, dairy, meat etc. Of course food industry lobbyists have a stranglehold on US Congress (and both political parties) so good luck with that.
Thank you for this very worthwhile and powerful conversation! Excellent questions, Simon! The part about protein, hyperpalatability and energy density was fascinating. I’m surprised fat+sugar+sodium wasn’t also a hyperpalatable combination. The problem of hyperpalatable foods (HF) is multifaceted. I think the marketing of HF is arguably MORE unethical than the historical marketing of cigarettes. We all have to eat so it’s harder for an individual to gain perspective about their food compared with cigarettes. Sadly, social inequities and food insecurity are a huge part of the problem. Corporations are profiting by harming peoples’ health. Makes me mad! I encourage everyone who feels capable to seize every opportunity to “just say NO” to HF, whether it’s in the supermarket, the restaurant or in their own kitchens. It can take time to re-condition our taste buds to real foods. Further research may be needed to change federal policy but as individuals we don’t have to wait to vote with our wallets. We can start by eating less of, or eliminating, products that we can’t resist eating in excess. The intertwined human health, environmental, and social justice crises could be mitigated by a concerted effort by consumers. Let’s stand up for our health and the well-being of the planet, too! ~ Marian
Fascinating! Ms Fazzino is well spoken and done great research. Seems like she has thought about nearly every aspect of the subject. I'd like to see more of her on your channel! Thanks
This interview integrates well and supports the work the Hava team is doing. They use the term "hedonic factor" to describe that magic mix that keeps you eating when you should stop. I hope they are getting somewhere linking this concept with a scoring system. I would use nuts as an example. Nuts inherently are a healthy food, but put a bag of salted cashews in front of me and I can get carried away. So a food that should have a good safe score to eat daily has this caution applied to it lowering its score. .
There’s a difference between plain raw cashews and cashews roasted in oil and salt. The latter should not be considered a “healthy food” in any quantity.
I created a spreadsheet where I could enter the macro values and it would determine hyperpalatably. I'm finding things like adding soy sauce to brown rice throws it into the HP range. It's everywhere.
Yeah, I loved this conversation. I've read a lot on nutrition, doing your Living Proof challenge, and I feel like I've studied a lot but this is some new material. Thank you, Simon, for pushing the envelope in getting the world to a healthier state. I love your work! Oh! And they advertised Harry and David chocolates. I thought that was kinda funny.
Reformulation ... witness even the humble Ryvita. A "classic" Ryvita has about 3% of kcal from fat and 0.1% by weight of sodium - so you'd have to work pretty hard adding stuff to it to bring it above TF's 25% / 0.3% HPF threshold. But then the newer multigrain Ryvita: 17% / 0.1%. Add some cheese to it and maybe you're above the threshhold. And then the more recent "thins" product: 21% / 0.8% for the "cheddar & black paper" variety. Add just about anything with fat to it and you've likely got an HPF snack. Using "multigrain" etc and classic health branding to give a bogus healthy-food veil to a a stealth HPF Ryvita? There are a bunch of other purported "health" foods which look like this, of course.
In real life I got off track healthy eating during the holidays. Not full bore but I got a taste of fats combined with refined sugars…aka Christmas cookies!!!! Ugh. I gained some weight for sure. I have been trying to get back on track eating in the way that gives me stable energy, stable mood and knowledge I’m not harming my health. Three solid days in and no fat, no sugar and way less salt is my norm and WFPB tastes good again. I know my other defense against eating poorly is staying full. It’s not that difficult if I am prepared
Peanuts are considered very healthy. About 33% of the fats in peanuts are Paraformaldehydes, PFAs. I tried to find out more about PFAs online and failed. The word formaldehyde makes me nervous. At any point in one of your podcasts could you discuss paraformaldehyde and its metabolism to clear up this point. Thanks.
11:00 I experienced the difference first as a kid in an extreme (foods that don't taste good but I still craved). But even today people seem not very aware of it or perceive that differently.
The 3 fattest cities in the USA are high consumers of American Southern.style BBQ. everyone is a foodie in this day and age. Food is entertainment and a hobby. Not just for nutrition. Actually, we got fatter w the rise of Food Network TV.
I know you asked about the production value. I honestly just listen like a podcast on youtube, and glance at my phone when there is a chart involved. But you guys have been doing a lot with short video content and i think having that extra footage around could help with that.
I must say I am now addicted to healthful living podcasts. Drs like Andrew Huberman and Steven Gundry have changed my life. I quit drinking alcohol and now read every label as food manufacturers manipulate the contents to mask their evil motives. Some of their podcasts are like masterclasses. Some even last > 3 hours. These must be consumed in smaller segments.
Great listen as always Simon! I laughed thinking of the possibility of some morning reading the headline “California passes bill to ban all candy bar sales to anyone under 16”.
Humans require 2.2 grams but we eat 3.4 g. Not much of a difference and I don't see how the body cannot adjust for that overage. Doesn't quite make sense.
She just misspoke a bit here: 2.3 grams per day is the recommended upper limit, not the requirement. The generally recommended daily intake is closer to 1.5 grams/day, and to prevent deficiency, we really only new a few hundred milligrams per day and that's practically impossible not to achieve, unless you are fasting.
Good discussion but your conclusions are based on info re how widespread addiction to food/ alcohol is . That’s a problem because it’s based on self-reporting. The essence of addiction is the tendency to lie about the problem to themselves and others. That makes your analysis questionable.
lets do mental gymnastic to avoid seeing it's a problem created by capitalism guys. Really anything but question capitalism. I get the host might be (rightfully) scared of scaring people off but listeners, enough of the internalized red scare
Salt, oil, and sugar are nutrients 😅 Lovely way to keep the addiction/ confusion going 😂 so oil and sugar are not hyper palatable foods. Let's promote fried foods in Moderation😂. Lets keep the wonder going😂 .
😂 yes she is totally off the mark when was sugar declared a nutrient? This video is not helpful for me sugar sugar sugar is the most addictive ingredient and when you mix it in with emulsified ingredients and high salt hydrogenated oils well you got a winner if you want people to eat more.
FASCINATING!!! I think Tera is 1st class and brings some truly profound insights to the table. Salt is really troubling... Your team is doing an awesome job with production quality. 👏👏👏
Ma boyy!! Love you.
I couldn't help but notice that you mention 'salt' and not 'sodium'. That is actually the question I am left with. Salt is a great flavour enhancer, but it is not the only one. I am thinking of sodium glutamate. I can't help but wonder whether it is really 'sodium' that is the culprit, or some specific sodium-containing substances.
Salt & Sugar
It's kind of sad thinking about number of people involved into designing, producing, marketing, selling products which are harmful to human health. And despite all the technological progress of humanity, we still have not found a way to prioritise wellbeing of humans. Unhealthy food, alcohol, smoking, drugs, screens, social media...and list can go on.
Well said.
It's all about profits. Cigarettes, Alcohol, Ultraprocessed Edibles. We all make choices for good or bad. People want what they want. Very sad
I haven't really thought of it that way before, but you're right it is sad. We've got to wonder, since this is very slowly killing us (or at least causing massive disease), should we do anything about this on a regulatory/government level? If we dont make any changes, what will our society look like health wise in two, three, four decades?
@@nman6265 well, there were (some) attempts in various countries to do smth about regulating various businesses towards more sustainable sales, marketing, products, etc. But most of those attempts failed, due to the corporations influencing politiciants. I think probably the best example of at least some kind of focus on wellbeing in EU regulations (though some might see them excessive). I'd say EU focus on customer protection is probably the main benefit of EU itself. But, if to take more philosophical note - people are people. We were like this always - carried on by ego games, greed and confrontation. No wonder, we - Buddhists - call human realm - cycle of suffering.
That’s capitalism.
Great episode Simon. I, as most of us, struggle with these addictive food products.
Really interesting! My own experience has been that the more whole foods I eat the more UPF tastes awful - I missed them at first but now hyper palatable foods taste way too salty or sweet and it's actually become hard to eat out because like Simon says I've realised how much chefs rely on these to make 'tasty' meals. When people think that you are somehow missing out by eating WFPB they don't realise how quickly your taste can change, or how much they are actually being suckered in by these huge food manufacturing companies 😜
So glad your guest made a distinction between enjoyment of everyday food and an environment of hyper palatable foods.
Great interview. Not only for the info but the interviewee's smile and laughter. It was infectious! The ~2hrs flew by. Thank you both!
Simon's podcasts always seem to be over so quickly, despite being 2+ hours long!
This is everything I've found to be true growing up as a fat kid. It was always the salty, savory stuff that really got me. I gave up soda in my teens, but was still slamming lettuce-wrapped burgers, cheese sticks, and microwave Atkins meals that my mom used to buy me. Lo and behold, never lost a pound until my late 20s when I finally discovered fiber. I found the discussion on protein interesting as well, because I also never understood the 'protein is the king of satiety' thing. That's never how it worked for me, but it's such an undisputed maxim in every health community. Glad to see it come under some scrutiny here.
Everyone should read the book "Something From the Oven" by Laura Shapiro, it discusses a lot of the history of processed foods which Tera alluded to here. Processed foods originated in WWII and companies built up infrastructure to produce it, then had no customers when the war ended, so these products were heavily marketed to domestic consumers. America's adoption of processed foods initially had nothing to do with a lack of time but advertising by tobacco company Phillip Morris, just as Tera explained.
Tera is brilliant! I appreciate her hesitance to pontificate about things without data, which is really a rare quality and makes me hold her opinions in that much more respect.
This episode is hyper-palatable.🤤😏
It's really not a shock to find out that the food industry is using the same tactics that the tobacco industry once used to sell these hyper-palatable foods. Profit is the only thing they care about. Sadly I don't think that our divided society now has the stomach for a "food fight" to get them to change their ways. The best way would probably be to cut the subsidies (in the Farm Bill) for those that produce products like corn, sugar, dairy, meat etc. Of course food industry lobbyists have a stranglehold on US Congress (and both political parties) so good luck with that.
Thank you for this very worthwhile and powerful conversation! Excellent questions, Simon! The part about protein, hyperpalatability and energy density was fascinating. I’m surprised fat+sugar+sodium wasn’t also a hyperpalatable combination.
The problem of hyperpalatable foods (HF) is multifaceted. I think the marketing of HF is arguably MORE unethical than the historical marketing of cigarettes. We all have to eat so it’s harder for an individual to gain perspective about their food compared with cigarettes. Sadly, social inequities and food insecurity are a huge part of the problem. Corporations are profiting by harming peoples’ health. Makes me mad!
I encourage everyone who feels capable to seize every opportunity to “just say NO” to HF, whether it’s in the supermarket, the restaurant or in their own kitchens. It can take time to re-condition our taste buds to real foods. Further research may be needed to change federal policy but as individuals we don’t have to wait to vote with our wallets. We can start by eating less of, or eliminating, products that we can’t resist eating in excess. The intertwined human health, environmental, and social justice crises could be mitigated by a concerted effort by consumers. Let’s stand up for our health and the well-being of the planet, too! ~ Marian
Fascinating! Ms Fazzino is well spoken and done great research. Seems like she has thought about nearly every aspect of the subject. I'd like to see more of her on your channel! Thanks
This interview integrates well and supports the work the Hava team is doing. They use the term "hedonic factor" to describe that magic mix that keeps you eating when you should stop. I hope they are getting somewhere linking this concept with a scoring system. I would use nuts as an example. Nuts inherently are a healthy food, but put a bag of salted cashews in front of me and I can get carried away. So a food that should have a good safe score to eat daily has this caution applied to it lowering its score. .
There’s a difference between plain raw cashews and cashews roasted in oil and salt. The latter should not be considered a “healthy food” in any quantity.
Food as grown as the only safe food
I created a spreadsheet where I could enter the macro values and it would determine hyperpalatably. I'm finding things like adding soy sauce to brown rice throws it into the HP range. It's everywhere.
Yeah, I loved this conversation. I've read a lot on nutrition, doing your Living Proof challenge, and I feel like I've studied a lot but this is some new material. Thank you, Simon, for pushing the envelope in getting the world to a healthier state. I love your work!
Oh! And they advertised Harry and David chocolates. I thought that was kinda funny.
interesting topic. like how Teras open about what she has no insight on also . she's comedic too, thats a bonus
Wonderful conversation. Once again i have learned loads Thank you both.
You’re welcome
Reformulation ... witness even the humble Ryvita. A "classic" Ryvita has about 3% of kcal from fat and 0.1% by weight of sodium - so you'd have to work pretty hard adding stuff to it to bring it above TF's 25% / 0.3% HPF threshold. But then the newer multigrain Ryvita: 17% / 0.1%. Add some cheese to it and maybe you're above the threshhold. And then the more recent "thins" product: 21% / 0.8% for the "cheddar & black paper" variety. Add just about anything with fat to it and you've likely got an HPF snack. Using "multigrain" etc and classic health branding to give a bogus healthy-food veil to a a stealth HPF Ryvita? There are a bunch of other purported "health" foods which look like this, of course.
Kind of ironic to have LMNT product placement in a conversation that is largely anti-sodium.
Link to her paper ?
Would be great to have an index for each of the three types mentioned here
Tysm,
✌🏽 🌱
In real life I got off track healthy eating during the holidays. Not full bore but I got a taste of fats combined with refined sugars…aka Christmas cookies!!!! Ugh. I gained some weight for sure. I have been trying to get back on track eating in the way that gives me stable energy, stable mood and knowledge I’m not harming my health. Three solid days in and no fat, no sugar and way less salt is my norm and WFPB tastes good again. I know my other defense against eating poorly is staying full. It’s not that difficult if I am prepared
Probably been said but buy organic peanut butter with no added salt. It's very low
Peanuts are considered very healthy. About 33% of the fats in peanuts are Paraformaldehydes, PFAs. I tried to find out more about PFAs online and failed. The word formaldehyde makes me nervous. At any point in one of your podcasts could you discuss paraformaldehyde and its metabolism to clear up this point. Thanks.
11:00
I experienced the difference first as a kid in an extreme (foods that don't taste good but I still craved).
But even today people seem not very aware of it or perceive that differently.
The 3 fattest cities in the USA are high consumers of American Southern.style BBQ. everyone is a foodie in this day and age. Food is entertainment and a hobby. Not just for nutrition. Actually, we got fatter w the rise of Food Network TV.
I know you asked about the production value. I honestly just listen like a podcast on youtube, and glance at my phone when there is a chart involved. But you guys have been doing a lot with short video content and i think having that extra footage around could help with that.
I must say I am now addicted to healthful living podcasts. Drs like Andrew Huberman and Steven Gundry have changed my life. I quit drinking alcohol and now read every label as food manufacturers manipulate the contents to mask their evil motives. Some of their podcasts are like masterclasses. Some even last > 3 hours. These must be consumed in smaller segments.
No one would be fat if they could only afford oaks and water. Remember, in many places, salt used to be more expensive than gold.
Sodium … table salt ?
Maybe if we did not have added salt we might persue more vegetables naturally having sodium
Great listen as always Simon! I laughed thinking of the possibility of some morning reading the headline “California passes bill to ban all candy bar sales to anyone under 16”.
Only started watching she said fat-sodium I will watch on I hope she addresses high bloody sugar seed oil mix.
Humans require 2.2 grams but we eat 3.4 g. Not much of a difference and I don't see how the body cannot adjust for that overage. Doesn't quite make sense.
She just misspoke a bit here: 2.3 grams per day is the recommended upper limit, not the requirement. The generally recommended daily intake is closer to 1.5 grams/day, and to prevent deficiency, we really only new a few hundred milligrams per day and that's practically impossible not to achieve, unless you are fasting.
How many times can she say Uhm?
Simply move toward whole food plant based with vigilance and start educating in elementary schools as soon as possible!
Haha Chik-fil-A was one of the advertisers during this podcast. God's chicken won't let you have the last word.
Good discussion but your conclusions are based on info re how widespread addiction to food/ alcohol is . That’s a problem because it’s based on self-reporting. The essence of addiction is the tendency to lie about the problem to themselves and others. That makes your analysis questionable.
BOLO
lets do mental gymnastic to avoid seeing it's a problem created by capitalism guys. Really anything but question capitalism. I get the host might be (rightfully) scared of scaring people off but listeners, enough of the internalized red scare
I just don't think that's a really helpful thing to focus on.
You're right. Communism is the answer. Nothing makes hyperpalatable food (and all other food) scarce like communism.
Yes!!!
@@ElectricBoogaloo007red herring
@@littlemissmuffet8607 red scaring
Salt, oil, and sugar are nutrients 😅 Lovely way to keep the addiction/ confusion going 😂 so oil and sugar are not hyper palatable foods. Let's promote fried foods in Moderation😂. Lets keep the wonder going😂 .
😂 yes she is totally off the mark when was sugar declared a nutrient?
This video is not helpful for me sugar sugar sugar is the most addictive ingredient and when you mix it in with emulsified ingredients and high salt hydrogenated oils well you got a winner if you want people to eat more.
Surely keeping your customers alive would be enough incentive for food companies to make a healthier product…..