im stuck in my own time loop where i have to make videos about final fantasy viii in 2024 or an evil version of myself from the future possesses my body. (also, thanks)
I think a combination of all of the cut content, translation errors, and abstract storytelling left a lot of young pre-internet people unfulfilled with the ending. There is a a lot of research (oh so much research) that can be done to understand the hidden threads within this story, but the fact we are all still talking about it means it was something special, whether a person liked it or not.
I remember you had to go out of your way to get a lot of the lore too, like going back to places and talking to NPCs. And they didn't even outright state Laguna was Squall's dad.
@@couchpotato3197 They didn't need to, it was obvious given the story direction and events. Japanese stories can be that way, leaving something unsaid, particularly when obvious. In fact, not stating the obvious is natural, yet the trope exists. The only issue with it not being said is it didn't want to make it a plot issue that Laguna never looked for Squall like he did Ellone, when Ellone knew about him and even found him later. It did it for sake of plot, but is a big plothole and character/narrative inconsistency.
I much prefer the r=u theory but I never interpreted it as a bad ending. I always interpreted the ending as them breaking the cycle. I always viewed the squall is dead as "the bad ending"
Yeah, the squall is dead theory is a bummer to say the least, although it can make the story make more sense in parts. Not really a fan of it personally.
I love R=U although I don't necessarily believe that our Rinoa is doomed to become Ultimecia. I think Ultimecia was a Rinoa, but that there is always hope of a better outcome this time around because of what we learn and experience. But the thing is, there is no such thing as a permanent happy ending. Life will always throw us curve balls. Perhaps Squall and Rinoa have a mostly amazing and happy life together. But then Squall dies, as all people do, while Sorceress Rinoa continues to live on. How will the world change? How will she change, as centuries pass? How might YOU change if you lived for 500 years and also had something eating up your memories? That, to me, is a big part of why the theory is compelling. You might end up as something quite different from where you started.
There is no "a Rinoa". FFVIII is not one of those idiotic multiverse stories from modern pop culture. It happens in a loop. Rinoa does not become Ultimecia and there is only one RInoa. The reason why Ultimecia does what she does is because she can control Edea while sitting in the future and gets access to the memories of "older Ultimecia who died". She knows she dies by the SeeDs and wants to stop it. But she cannot. They kill her, Squall gets sent back to the orphanage and the cycle continues. That is why Edea created the Garden. Squall told her. That is why Edea-Ultimecia calls Squall the legendary SeeD. Because she knows he has defeated her already dead older self. The SeeDs and Ultimecia are doomed to fight forever in a story about the inevitability of things. Just like Ellone tried to help the cast but she only sent them back for things to happen the way they did. The only exception for the sake of romanticism where they broke consistency was when Ellone could influence a teeny tiny moment for Squall and Rinoa in space. Which makes no sense but it is for the sake of the love trope.
Perfectly said! I also like to think that Ultimecia's true goal was to perpetuate her own existence by allowing Rinoa to inherit sorceress powers, though she didn't plan for a time loop to occur. Her plan to compress time certainly did bring Squall back there didn't it? She's just forgotten why, it seems
I subscribe to Ulti being the first Rinoa to attempt stopping... herself? In order to save Squall's life and defeat Ultimecia, she junctions Squall as a GF, creates Griever, and then becomes Ultimecia. The Rinoa that we play with/as is the one that finally breaks the cycle and saves Squall without resorting to turning him into Griever.
I like to think R=U (or at least a variant) but the events of final fantasy VIII break the time loop thus resulting in a dawn of the new day happy ending
The end of the game is literally the loop resetting. Edea finds out about Gardens and Ultimecia gives her the power. "Breaking loops" makes no sense. Anybody who ever made a story about timeloops that break does not understand them in the first place. To "break" something there needs to be a difference in events. But where does the difference come from? If it is a logical timeloop written by somebody who does not just mean "prime events repeat" everything happens 100% the same, otherwise it would not be a timeloop.
@@Cetra29 Have you ever played the original Final Fantasy, the first one? It's literally about a time loop, but at least in some translations, Chaos claims that once his power has grown sufficiently from countless loops, he will 'break out from it' to destroy everything. Logically speaking, of course, a time loop doesn't change between repeats. But, it's a *fantasy* story. Things can be weird and cycles can be broken just because the story demands it, or the power of love, or other such things. In fact, that's how Final Fantasy 1 ends. The heroes break the time loop, and as a result, their heroic deeds are forgotten entirely because the threat was a paradox and was erased from history.
@@Cetra29 Have you ever used magic? Probably not, which is why you either take pre-existing rules or make up your own. The idea that there is exactly one kind of timeloop and it is the one that always existed and never changed is dumb because we don't even have evidence of such a thing in reality, so you can't even talk against it on that level.
@@SemudaraThat's kinda different. The events of the game up until that point are the time loop. Chaos gives his powers to create the Archfiends, the Archfiends use the soul of Garland to create Chaos from all the power he gifted them and all the power he gained within each round in the time loop. But ultimately the story was supposed to be that him breaking from the time loop was escaping to the realm of the gods who created that world(Our world) however We the Warrior of Light entered his world to end him. Strangers of Paradise added a layer of meta commentary by saying the realm of the gods was another created realm and the Warrior of Light was his Actual trump card. He and the Archfiends were using the time loop to train the Warriors of Light to become the ones to kill the gods.
Its a pretty good theory and i like it because i feel that it adds depth but at the same time, it really is important that people can distinguish between a fan theory and what's presented, ofc its up to interpretation but its important to keep in mind that at the end of the day its a big assumption
There’s a key line though when they’re in the Ragnarock where she wishes she could stop time in that one moment (when she’s sitting in Squall’s lap). I think it’s more than a coincidence that Ultimecia wants to compress time into a single moment and the fact that Squall’s lion is called Griever and her GF shares the same name.
100% right. The now powerful sorceress stating that, cannot just be coincidence. Too many coincidences, it must have been intended secretly by a writer. Great narrative depth
It's been almost 2 decades since I played FF8 but iirc the scan spell said Ultimecia gave Griever a physical form specifically from Squall's ideal vision of the ultimate Guardian Force so Griever is definitely not her personal GF at least not until she summoned it from Squall's mind.
I've always adored wild theories. I delved hard into the absurd theories of Final Fantasy as well as things like A Song of Ice and Fire. If I agree with it or not seems to be secondary to me. I love how people view stories through different lenses, the creativity and wild ideas, and people trying to piece together mysteries and loose plot threads. It tickles the brain in such a nice way. The fact that these stories capture people's imaginations to this level is a wonderful thing.
I always thought Griever was a version of Squall as well. I think Squall promised to be her knight even if the world went against her. It describes Ultimecia perfectly because she is hunted by SeeD members. Rinoa also is the only one who knows about Griever and what it represents to Squall. It would have added layers to Ultimecia instead of her being a puppeteer through a majority of the game. Holding on to Griever as her personal GF would have caused her to forget since the story said it affected the user's memory if you junction and use them.
I also feel like if the theory had been canon, it would have given way more narrative value to the whole GF amnesia mechanic. As is, it feels more like a detail thrown in at random to justify the plotpoint of everyone being coincidentally connected without knowing. It goes from a plot convenience to a foreshadowing of a tragic fate.
Ever since I read this theory a year ago, it’s become my head canon. It perfectly fits within the story, and I dont really care if the developers do not agree with it.
I could actually forgive the kids and the older players who played FF8 back then for thinking this theory is true, because, unless you comb through every little breadcrumb through the game, which most players won't be able to do on a first or even sceond playthough, the game doesn't explain much about the sorceress Ultimecia or even Adel and their background and how they came to be. So they where probably using the information they had about the more prominent sorceresses, Rinoa and Edea, and imposed that into the others to fill out the blanks.
I wouldnt say for certain that Ultimecia being a Rinoa would necessarily have to mean that theres a time loop and that squall and rinoa are destined to never get a happy ending. it could very well be that our rinoa and squall from the game we play, are actually the only 2 to survive together in their timeline and that by virtue of ultimecia and griever having gone back in time and trying to undo the past, they ended up connecting their times to the one timeline rinoa and squall end up surviving together. so then the theory in that context ends up becoming a hopeful message about how You on your best day can overcome your worst as long as you have companions to rely on to turn the tide and make the difference
I love R=U theory. I know its not perfect, and I know as much as some people love it there are those who love to hate on it. My headcannon is the loops are not infinite and we are playing thru the 3rd or whatever loop and are breaking it permanently during the course of our playthru. The theory gives deep implications on outcomes of time compression and also memory loss due to long term GF use. As well as a more satisfying explanation of Griefer. But love or hate the theory we are all, as you say, keeping the game alive by arguing about it!
i prefer to live in my own headcannon for ff8. It's the only FF where I have to actively make up things for some of the situations to fill in gaps and I find that incredibly engaging, whether it was intentional or not. Another golden piece of the puzzle for this game is the hyne lore. Maybe you could make a video of it sometime. I've seen some reaaaally good theories about it that really made me change the way I look at the game.
The Theory actually would make for a great story and I really like the thought of that, but it doesn't make the game any worse for not being the truth behind it. Still, sometimes the stories "told by accident" or the once we theorise ourself bring it to a hole nother level.
Definately worth the wait. Nice step up in the Edit! My take on the topic is that Ultemecia is the result of perpetual War. The time loop is broken when Squall kills her and Breaks the Succession of witches. Even if Rinoa isnt ACTUALLY Ultemecia, i think the idea is that she could end up like that without Squall breaking the loop and coming home.... which is something Laguna never managed to do ;) - Jack
I agree. I think the parallels are intended to make you think, "Jeez, she's like the anti-Rinoa." But then when she has Griever, her castle is at the flower field, etc. you kinda go, "Wow, could even Rinoa become something like this?"
FF8 is my all-time favorite video game. When I first played it in 1999 and subsequently finished it in the very early aughts, this theory didn't exist yet. When I came across it on the internet many years later, I was like "nah man, these people be trippin'" LOL. But then I got the remastered version on Steam earlier this year, finished it for the first time in 15 years and everything clicked. I was "converted", now I'm a firm believer of this theory and the game makes SO much more sense with it being this type of " apocryphal canon".
I've never played FF8 but this video gave me a new perspective on the original ending of Mass Effect 3. The original ending was so preposterous that the only way to make sense of it was that Shepard (the protagonist) was assimilated by the Reapers (the bad guys) at some point in the mid game. That fan theory turned a shit ending into something that was actually genius. The company debunked that theory and re-wrote the ending in a patch. But now, I can be happy with my head cannon ending. Thanks! :)
I always really liked the theory and your explanation as to why people felt it "fixed" a lot of the issues I had with the game is on point. What were on their surface disappointingly shallow storylines and backstories (my opinion obviously) suddenly recursed into themselves and became something much more complex and tragic. Personally it feels very bland and 2 dimensional without the endless time loop concept. It's the idea that she's fighting the very tormented person she will become, and there's no way to stop it, but despite the tragedy of it all, Ultimecia/Rinoa at least gets to relive the happier times as well. It's the realization that the real tragedy is that during that brief reprieve, Ultimecia/Rinoa experiences the very same love and happiness that will become the fuel for her descent into madness, and by extension for the loop itself, when it is again taken away. Then there's the chicken and the egg aspect of it. It's a cruel little cosmic joke. But anyway, I do prefer the theory.
obviously, people like or dislike Rinoa=Ultimecia for a whole bunch of reasons that were not covered here, nothing wrong with that, everyone can enjoy what they want!
FF8 and Ultimecia's background is already extremely tragic and poetic so I don't need R=U. But they just never explored it enough sadly. Ultimecia was a person who was ostracized and prosecuted for being a witch her whole life and gave up on people and was just afraid of dying. (Im guessing it was like a medieval witch trail allusion) And it parallels both Squall and Rinoa's story combined. It's even all paralleled in FF8s creation myth with Hyne is about people wanting to protect their children and fighting over magic. From ancient past to far future the story is more about breaking the cyclical human nature while Ultemecia is trying to break the cycle of life and death unnaturally.
We get a clue towards this during Seifer's interrogation of Squall, where his questions make it pretty clear Ultimecia has no idea why SeeD is opposed to her. She was persecuted her entire life, had no idea why it was happening, found a way to potentially destroy her persecutors, and in doing so became the reason that persecution took place in the first place.
@@wizardsummoner9124 We're not given many details but there's enough info in the game to infer she suffered prejudice for being a Sorceress, which at some point escalated to her becoming a target of SeeD without ever understanding why. She then sought a way of escaping the prejudice and hostility she faced.
Got a copy of Brave Fencer Musashi when I was a kid with ff8 demo disk. I probably spent ten hours with what was basically 1 fight. Great video! There’s never enough ff8 content that’s a new take. Thanks.
The R=U theory always felt needlessly contrived, to me. The game says that there are an unknown number of sorceresses, and many of them choose to hide their powers for fear of reprisal. The game also doesn't say if a single woman can inherit more than one sorceress' power. We also know that some sorceresses (Adele, for example) are unusually powerful and motivated to use that power. So it's not unthinkable that either (1) Utltimecia is just a rare but inevitable sorceress who has unusually high power (and enough knowledge of lore and history to make effective use of it) or (2) she's a sorceress who has inherited many copies of sorceress power as a result of killing off lots of people and being the only woman left to receive it. The fact that Ultimecia eventually inherited the *power* that Rinoa has is pretty likely. The idea that she is Rinoa herself is not.
In regards to inheriting more than one sorceress' power we see two examples in game. First with Rinoa inheriting Edea's power then Adel's power and also with Edea who said she became a sorceress at 5 and then inherited the powers from Ultimecia.
Beacuse it makes the focus of VIII, the romance, both more integral to the plot, but also tragic, which is compelling. It also fixes Ultimecia as an antaongist who has no real discernable motive for her actions other than cartoonishly 'I'm evil because I am".
Lol, nobody pays attention, this is ridiculous. Ultimecia is not "evil because she is evil." The cast is stuck in a bootstrap paradox. That is why she does what she does. She knows she is gonna die by the SeeDs because it happens in a loop that nobody can get out of. She wants to kill everybody because they kill her because she wants to kill everybody and so on. It is the same as why Link in Ocarina of Time has the Song of Storms or why Harry Potter can save Sirius Black. "What happened, happened." That is the phenomenon of a bootstrap paradox. It has no beginning and no end. Since nobody started one could even make the argument that there are neither Squall nor Ultimecia are good or evil. They just react to what they cannot get out of.
Tragedy is not inherently compelling and I'm sick of the notion that it is. Making Rinoa into Ultimecia solves nothing and only adds angst and drama for the sake of angst and drama which isn't an interesting or compelling way to write a story or individual character.
so it depends a lot on how seriously you take the canon of character development in other media. Opera Omnia actually gives us a few more hints as to who she is and what might have motivated her, and since the developers of Opera Omnia went to great pains to work with the people who actually created the original games when writing the characters (this was often why characters from 14 really lagged behind in getting updates or appearances in cutscene as Yoshi-P is always such a busy man) In that game they elaborate that it was her status as an outcast in society and her loneliness that motivated her to attempt to compress time and make it so that more sorceresses could exist at once. If this is indeed the truth, this puts her story as FAR more relatable, possibly closer to what one might see with Emet Selch in terms of being able to connect to the motives behind the villainy
I will die on the hill of "Rinoa is Ultimecia" being a good idea. It strengthens ALL the themes of the game! FF8 builds itself on the bond between Squall and Rinoa. The two of them embracing is literally the splash image for the game. The culminating moment for their relationship takes place in the back of the orphanage. "Even if the entire world became your enemy, I would be your knight." In the game proper, this line is a sweet, but empty declaration of devotion... but if Rinoa is also Ultimecia, suddenly it becomes a moment of foreshadowing. After all, if Rinoa is Ultimecia, then the strong implication would be that Griever is what became of Squall in her timeline. (which is already a stronger reason for Griever to be there than the nothing we get in the proper story) Now, instead of being what TV tropes would call a "Giant space flea from nowhere", Ultimecia represents a version of our primary pair who rejected the world... a shadow the duo have to face before they can commit to their path to try to live their lives as part of it without fear of her powers. It just... I dunno... it improves EVERYTHING.
It's as fanmade today as it was when the game was released. I heard this theory on my schoolyard, bro, and it felt as fake then as it feels now. It's a theory made by smarter people that whoever wrote VIII's bizarrely stupid argument.
Everbody can think about a message what they want, that does not make it their interpretation correct. That is how communication psychology works. Kazushige Nojima is the sender of the message. His thoughts and story count. That's it.
First off. Excellent video! You really did a great deep dive on the history of the theory and presented it nicely. Personally. This theory never resonated with me as someone who LOVES FF8’s despite it’s issues. Mainly because you’d have to fundamentally change your understanding of what it is you see and experience in game and heavily tap into the realm of personal interpretation. I enjoy stories like that a great deal! But FF8 never seemed like one of those to me. You’d also have to view the two characters in question very differently Ultimecia is my favorite villain in the whole franchise despite the fact that admittedly she wasn’t the best executed. She is a self-fulfilling villain… she has made this elaborate plan, going across time and space to ensure that her demise never happens. And yet. It is exactly her plan that made it happen. And I find that incredibly tragic and sad in it’s own context. And makes her a foil to Squall in a way. It also fits in the themes of Destiny and Fate the game heavily emphasizes.. you cannot escape what is destined to happen no matter what you do. And her insane plan to do so backfired on her. Making her worst fear happen sooner I can get the appeal of this theory as it had been explained to me ad nauseam and practically HALF the fanbase of FF8 loves it. But to me. The story we experience in game is great in it’s own. Despite the execution flaws.
I've known about this theory for more than a couple years, and it sparked my love for ff8 all over again when I heard it, much deeper and darker. Just yesterday I started dabbling into this theory again, so its awesome to see how relevant the theory still is with a new video on it the very next day. Like most fans, we enjoyed the game throughout, but the thought of ultimecia just being this villain that comes way later in the game out of nowhere with no real attachment or even much care. The progression of the game without this theory is just playing the story too safe, felt like a normal good ending fantasy that you don't have to think too much about after beating it, but to know ultimecia is a rinoa from say another timeline is heartwrenching and gives depth to the villain.
I like r=u because I like it more when the seemingly light hearted theme of love and friendship is suddenly contested with the reality of tragedy and suffering. Kind of reflects our life. We can love, we can be happy but our world is still full of sad stories, tragedies, accidents. FF8 was my first final fantasy game and since then i have always wondered why the series is called "final fantasy". To me, the story would always center around the characters' last chance of happiness as their story would eventually spiral into darkness. This could also be the reason why my favorites are those with really sad endings or dark theories: (spoiler alert) like when yuna lived at tidus' expense, the theory that all of humanity actually succumbed to starscourge in ff15, or that we are the actual villains in ff12, or that the souls in ff13 reincarnated on earth with ton of positivity but we all know what earth's history.
I don't like R=U, but that original version sounds way better than what has survived until today. I've been a fan since before it was released but didn't go on the forums and such so didn't learn it until it had distilled a bit. The idea of a completely different version of Rinoa becoming Ultimecia is acceptable as a backstory, but definitely not the explanation of it I usually hear. The way it was first posed to me was the Rinoa in the game would eventually become Ultimecia.
Thanks for the vid. I think VIII is absolutely all over the place and R=U is great for tying things together a little bit, giving it some actual meaning. I'd love the game regardless, but SE should adopt it as canon because the fans pieced together a better story than they managed to.
its been 20 years ago,, back then i found the story is light but sometimes very confusing a lot, but i really did enjoy the game (if i were still teen surely will hate R=U, but in this age R=U feels much more thrilling fun, combination of sad and impressed)
I had never heard the theory of Squall becoming Griever. It does make sense, in how naming Griever changes the boss's name. And it's a moment shared by Squall and Rinoa. It's also an interesting precursor to FFX's Final Aeon.
The simple answer is that you're allowed to just not enjoy something. It doesn't mean you need to "fix" it by inventing some convoluted explanation for why all the things you don't like are actually not bad. Just let it be bad.
Personally, I enjoy the game even accepting that the theory is wrong. I mean, you'd have to be delusional to believe otherwise when Kitase already debunked it. But I enjoy it *more* when thinking of the version, the headcanon, that Rinoa is Ultimecia. To me, it makes it go from "Pretty good, but I don't get it" to "This is great and poetic". So yeah, no hate on the game's actual and official story. I just like the interpretation even better.
I’ve been a fan of this game since the first time I played it. I’ve never heard of this theory. While it’s interesting, I won’t recognize it as canon until the creators say that was the intent. I like the happy ending. And there’s nothing wrong with Ultimecia having some mystery. Reality is like this too. You’re not always going to have some deep backstory revealed to you about everyone you’ve encountered. But, I agree with you OP. Live in the FFVIII universe you want to live in.
You’ve earned my subscription which I don’t do often. Wonderful explanation and theory. I came off shedding tears from the music of FFVIII but you’re a breath of fresh air to fan logic thank you very much for taking time in what I believe to be the most under rated final fantasy of them all.
I always thought it was pretty clear that Rinoa's Sorceress's power got passed down to Ultimecia, which then gets paradoxed back to Edea via the time compression, and so becomes Rinoa's again. Theoretically making them both infinitely powerful, but apparently not actually. Ultimecia is more of an eldrich horror than a real person, she can't relate to any other humans in a meaningful way beyond domination, and has powers beyond our understanding. i never got even the slightest hint back in the day that she and Rinoa were the same. Rinoa seems like she'd follow in Edea's steps and pass on the Sorceress' gift rather than let it drag her life out infinitely.
My takeaway from it is that Rinoa is Ultimecia (so many clues and hints) but the time compression is sorta Back to the Future rules, ie Ultimecia's future was default until she travelled back and changed something (set the plot in motion). Something else I thought of but am not quite so in favour of is the idea that yes, Squall does die when he's hit with the ice, but we were playing in Ultimecia's timeline up to that point. When we change discs, we change to the altered timeline. Anyway, let's all enjoy the game. :)
The final boss fight and the witches inside time compression are honestly the coolest thing i have seen in an rpg to this day. The final events felt rushed in a way, but are also so experimental and innovative that i appreciate the ambition.
Will enjoy this. Some months back I found your channel through Orion85 when they mentioned you were a channel to keep an eye on. It's really cool to see your channel growing.
FF8 was the first console FF game I played, and I loved it until I played it when I was older and realized how crappy and disjointed the story is. It's like a different story after Disc 1, it went from mercenary kids to time-nonsense with not enough being explained. I think the reality is they didn't finish writing the story before completing the game, and the direction didn't account for this. However I also think that's not a bad thing, because it creates a lot of intrigue that this video shows pretty well. Fuck moombas though for real what the hell is that all about
Correction: WE are not. Some ppl are. Just like some ppl still think squall died at the end of CD 1, because they didnt connect the dots yet that edea used her limit break. Sometimes we percieve things different as Kids and only realize much later. Squall told us Griever is a legendary mythical beast. So multiple people aside from Squall mustve believed in it. Also it is very much unlikely that squall made his gunblade and ring by himself (given how his weapon is literally in a weapon magazine, so the griever design is a standard model). So Griever is just a Symbol of fantasy and strength, just like we believe in dragons. Noone believed it could actually exist and even more, be a GF. and the heavy Story point of ff8 Was that its a perfect time loop depending on edeas decision, while as children, we thought the reveal of ultimecia was the heavy Story plot, so they wanted to give her more meaning
Squall tells her Griever is a legendary beast, but it came across to me like a lonely kid describing his imaginary friend, and trying to impress the listener.
I'd buy your explanation about Greiver if yhe game didn't let you name it, and then use that same name in the final battle. If it was just a legendary GF and it turns out to belong to Edea, sure, fun. But you name the ring, and the game goes out of its way to assign that name to the boss. Why? It creates an intentional, unmissable connection between it and the player (and by extension Squall), rather than just being background detail. What was the purpose of doing that if there wasn't meant to be something more meaningful?
@@MmeCShadow maybe giving us hope that griever could be a gf that we would be able to use, only to be let down immediately afterwards when realizing, no. its not for you, its not yours, you didnt get anything after the cutscene and when fighting ultimecia u realize why you wont get it. right now, your only connection that "rinoa is ultimecia" is that she was present when you name the standard name of griever and that youre able to change it. but the lion already had the name griever when it got engraved on squalls gunblade and when the blacksmith made the super intricate weapon box thats standing in his garden room. plus, you are not actually naming the ring. you are confirming that the name is griever, but the icon that you name is actually squalls necklace. they just use the ring as a reason because its more romantic than him giving her his necklace, which it seems he has a whole jewelry kit of, the "griever bling bling pack to his weapon". i mean, what else do you want aside from a dev who wrote and worked on the game to confirm that its not true. to question thoughts behind the process that his coworkers who he worked with on this game for over a year and had regular meetings to never drop THAT detail in any of their presentations about lore?
I remember thinking this after digging around in the in game encyclopedia, but that was in a full vacuum, divorced from any fan discussion. I gave it up after a 2nd playthrough, though
Love your videos. I personally would love a full remake (doesn't have to be visualized in that AAA treatment that VII got) where they not only integrate this theory but all of the other cut content and things they ran out of time and budget for such as Laguna's tale being 50% of the story. More of Hyne and Adel and Ultimecia etc. I think there absolutely is a way to execute R=U where it doesn't ruin things but just builds on the foundation of what was there. For example I can see why people would say it removes the happy ending - but they could also make it clear that by end credits we have snipped/deleted that thread of fate/future from ever occurring after she is defeated. Like killing a possibility. That's my preference but even if they did just teasingly include vague references that play it up as a reference I'd be happy. In general I would really hope if VIII ever does get remade, that they just go absolutely nuts with additions and changes and improvements. (This coming from someone who adores the FFVIII we have now)
I like your take on this. I grew up with FF8 and absolutely love it, but I never knew about this theory. I do find it strange that people are divided about it. Why can't both possibilities exist? (i.e., R = U, but they finally break the loop and get their happy end?) It is rather fascinating to say the least and I will have to think about that the next time I play it.
I love the fan theory but don't consider it canon but never understood why. You put all of my thoughts on why I love it into words and I thank you for it
FF8 was my first and remains my favourite of the series. Never cared for the crazy theories but I do wish they would remake the game with more backstory to the world and characters
If I remember right during FF8s remastered release Kitase said Laguna was going to have so much content that he was basically a second protagonist! It kills me I wish we had more FF8 stuff too! Even if it was audio dramas and novels like Nier
Considering tidus' dad and Seymore's mother becoming Aeons, I got to say alternative-universe-time-compressed-squal being the GF greiver isn't that far fetched.
This video made me interested in the FF3 = FF8 theory. It's fun but the only connections seem to be Hyne and time shenanigans. Although I do like the smaller stuff like the Djinn and Ifrit connections for the first bosses. Or the clock in Ultimecia's castle pointing to III & VIII. Edit: I commented way too soon before doing more digging lol I dunno, I'm kinda way convinced there's some connection there, I had never considered Lunatic Pandora as being so similar to the Crystal Tower
I can't speak for others, but the big reason I love the RInoa is Ultemecia theory is due to a couple of reasons. One mentioned in this video. I want to preface that my version of this theory differs a bit, but uses the two timelines theory as a basis. I like it because 1. Ultimecia lacks humanity to me. Having her spiral into madness due to a loss of a loved one (like Squall in the original timeline) makes her more relatable. 2. It creates a very rare and poetic scenario where technically everybody wins. The main cast put a stop to Ulti, and Ulti was able to save the man she loved and the her in the new timeline will be able to live her life with him beside her. I don't think that means Squall and Rinoa's happy ending doesn't last. It is a brand new timeline that has been changed due to Ultimecia's presence. The bad end has been averted. Funny enough, I think the devs gave a nod to the fan theory in Dissidea. IIRC they gave the two similar mannerisms in their animations. It's been a while so I might be misremembering, I just remember having that impression.
Final Fantasy 8 grew to become my number 1 favorite over the years. Tied with X for a long time. But I love the storyline and the possible idea of Squall actually being dead after the events of disc 1. Or of course Rinoa actually being Ultemecia…. They need to remake this game
I like that the game allows you to either believe it or not and be right either way. While my personal head canon believes that R=U, I wouldn't want it to be retconned and explicitly made into a chapter of the game. "Shall we dance?"
So I went back through the storyline and there's one big flaw with the Rinoa = Ultimecia theory. The Parade in Deling City. See, according to the theory, when Edea sends the Iguions after Rinoa, if she had succeeded in killing her it would have created an ontological paradox. While we're talking about a game that incorporates a massive paradox at the end in order to get to Ultimecia, the Deling City paradox is one Ultimecia would be dead-set against allowing to happen if Rinoa was intended to eventually become her. Not only would it undo the fabric of reality - something Ultimecia actually wants to happen - it would destroy her from multiple generations in the past, wiping out the existence of the one person who wants to stay alive in a world of Time Compression.
Unless she Knew it would fail, thus making Rinoa herself stronger in the process while Galvanizing Squall's desire to protect her, which ultimately is why he kills Ultimecia. Something she doesn't remember because of her GF made to immortalize Squall if he dies after the events of the game...
I had no idea this was a “fan theory”. Without ever going into forums or participating very much with the online FF8 fanbase, something like this was always my understanding of the canon story. I don’t know about the alternate universes stuff-some of the details as presented seem iffy-but *something like this* was always, to my eyes, what the game itself suggested was true. Ultimecia’s GF is even called “Griever”, like Squall’s chain mascot, because of the Rinoa connection.
Also I came here because the R=U theory always amusing to me and didn't expect to get so emotional at the end of the video! FF8 is really special to me.
I like the theory about Ultimecia being a corrupted Rinoa from an alternate timeline, as it help gives Ultimecia some depth, as well as giving the time travel elements in Final Fantasy VIII more meaning. I don’t think it ruins FF8’s story or ruins both Rinoa and Ultimecia as characters, as it pretty much provides more backstory to the time travel elements of VIII, and having Ultimecia as a future Rinoa and a Squall who died in another timeline allows the current Squall & Rinoa (the ones from the events of FF8) to change their own paths and erased their original fates, so they could live in a brighter future together.
R=U ultimately undermines the story. It's a typical love story with a boostrap paradox, not a tragedy with a messy timeline problem. Ultimecia is intended to be a foil to Rinoa. She highlights what Rinoa could become if she didn't have Squall, and what she explicitly isn't. Those who think R=U "fixes" the game didn't understand the game. It produces more plotholes than it fills. There's no timelines, it's a closed causal loop, which is the entire reason behind Ultimecia's existence, which is already tragic enough without making her Rinoa. And Griever isn't anything to do with it. Ultimecia specifically reads Squall's mind during the last battle, identifies the thing he believes to be the strongest GF and brings it to life then and there.
What I love here is you describing the original theory shows away for both sides to be in harmony. R=U but from other timelines, however we break that loop and avoid that fate. Liberi Fatali Could there be a double meaning here of Liberation from Fate?
Great video, the only thing I would add is that Dissidia plays with the theory a little too. Ultimately I think it doesn't matter, as creators tend to change things afterwards anyway if it would bring in more money.
Ultimecia is great as her own character, but it's still a fun fan theory. Ultimecia's castle is my favorite Final Fantasy dungeon. She's fierce and tragic.
I think as a theory it's pretty good. It was debunked and is optional so you can just leave it as a head canon which fits nicely with the ingame facts. And yep all happy endings are only ever temporary eventually someone dies but players can just choose to ignore this and have their happy ending after all.
I like the theory because I think makes the story better. Personally I still think the happy ending can happen simply because history was changed with all the time travel and what was certain is not anymore.
IF the theory were true, the story could have been done so much better in its conclusion. The theory is only great if Rinoa is able to find her humanity again through her re-living this period with her friends. Through endless time revisiting the events which bore you, finding yourself in that moment and recapturing the joy lost to time, that would elevate the story, instead of diminish the story to nihilism.
I've noticed a bunch of lore videos about FF8 being dropped recently. This is grear considering the game always had this deep history in-game that rarely gets discussed
This theory is just too good. Would this make the whole game a tragic time loop? Yes. Does that take away from the beautiful moment at the end of the game where Squall and Rinoa have a lifetime of love and world peace ahead of them? No. I like to think that during ultimecia's final moments as she's transferring her power to Edea and completing the cycle, she's actually at peace and is finally able to remember her eternal love for Squall.
A lot of people dislikes overcomplications from fictional stories, while at the same time try to add complications to stories they deemed as lacking in complication. But almost everyone felt the appeal of feeling smart about themselves. The problem is then when people just simply don't perfectly understand the existing complications within the story that's written by the author, and feel the need to fixed it with something that their limited brain can understand. This is what Rinoa = Ultimecia for those so hard for it as you presented above is actually showing. And it's showing not just from that specific theory, and not limited to FF8 either. The Squall is dead theory is also a showcase of how a lot of people just are not on the necessary height of brain power to get the complication written by the author. FF7 Remake story is one of the most recent example, where lot of people are criticizing it as convoluted. They're mostly incapable of seeing and understanding things that's not written and explained for them as clear cut as possible. In reality, if we understand how things works and many popular scientific theories, most of those theories can easily be debunked with the simplest explanations. Like for example, Squall can't die because of the grandfather paradox. The reality itself will always restore Squall's condition because whatever kills him won't happened if he dies due to how he's the one that tells past Edea about his journey of killing Ultimecia. The effect can't erase the cause. Now what is the simplest explaination that counters R = U, aside from the author'a own words? 1. Griefer is simply being drawn and summoned from Squall there and then at the final battle. What? You don't think that Ultimecia out of everyone there incapable of using "Draw", right? 2. Sorceress of FF8 world are not all immortals and none are invincible. Not even Ultimecia, at any point, canonically described as an immortal. Adel is also not an immortal. Elone already dies for long by the time of Ultimecia. Every single known sorceress is FF8, none of them are immortal...and they can die whenever they want. So again, in my opinion, it's just people wanting to feel smart about themselves, whenever they're not actually smart enough to understand what they read. They need the theory to "fix" it, to replaced things that they don't understand. Majorities of people only like complications that they personally can understand.
I always thought Ultimecia was all the sorceresseseses. I think you can't explain Griever with Rinoa, but all the witches who live in real time are time-compressed into Ultimecia - no other creature can really live like that.
Whoa. I didn't know this was such a intense subject. Like, don't get me wrong. I love 8, but it's very up and down. I loved the Squall is dead theory, but it being wrong certainly doesn't change the game for me. 😅
I am probably the only person in a very long time to have thought Ultimecia was either future version of Quistis or a descendant of Quistis, the father wouldnt have been important in this theory but all the pieces i had was the hairstyle was too similar, eye shape/lip shape and the sass of her smirk was just almost identical if not just a darker version of quistis, and the hatred for SeeD just made me theorize more that she could of just been a descendant, a hatred for SeeD/garden keeping Quistis or whichever the ancestor was - away from home too long until ultimecia news reached to her of their death, assuming the original timeline never played out the same. I even compared the faces of all the female characters and rinoa barely comes close, but quistis does, and while the clothes is a bit of a stretch they both wear a tight dress.
She's not but... I think from what she says it hints that she was artificially created in some attempt to create and control a powerful sorceress as weapon. Maybe some military scientists collected DNA Serpentor style from multiple, historically significant Sorceresses in a lab? Hence the 'Ultimate Sorceress' This would mean that maybe there's some Rinoa floating around in there.
Her castle was built on top of the flower field where the lovers made their promise to meet. She crawled her way back to the flower field even when her body was disintegrating and refuses to die. Only fools are unable to see that rinoa and ultmecia are the same person and how the entire time paradox and time loop was formed to begin with.
![[MV] A leap of faith...ความเชื่อใจครั้งสุดท้าย (From "Petrichor the series")](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U1piZH2CNXA/mqdefault.jpg)
I don't know why but thank you for just suddenly dropping videos about FF8 in 2024.
im stuck in my own time loop where i have to make videos about final fantasy viii in 2024 or an evil version of myself from the future possesses my body. (also, thanks)
@@GameDove OMG you too!?
@@GameDoveI see what you did there 😂
Ff8 videos are like crack to me.
Time kompression means it is always the best time for an FFVIII video.
I think a combination of all of the cut content, translation errors, and abstract storytelling left a lot of young pre-internet people unfulfilled with the ending. There is a a lot of research (oh so much research) that can be done to understand the hidden threads within this story, but the fact we are all still talking about it means it was something special, whether a person liked it or not.
I remember you had to go out of your way to get a lot of the lore too, like going back to places and talking to NPCs. And they didn't even outright state Laguna was Squall's dad.
@@couchpotato3197 They didn't need to, it was obvious given the story direction and events. Japanese stories can be that way, leaving something unsaid, particularly when obvious. In fact, not stating the obvious is natural, yet the trope exists. The only issue with it not being said is it didn't want to make it a plot issue that Laguna never looked for Squall like he did Ellone, when Ellone knew about him and even found him later. It did it for sake of plot, but is a big plothole and character/narrative inconsistency.
Is there a way this game didn’t suck?
@ yeah a lot of ppl love it, me included. It’s ok if you don’t tho
@@blumiu2426 is it possible he didn’t know about squall or he new it could change fate by making himself known to squall?
I much prefer the r=u theory but I never interpreted it as a bad ending. I always interpreted the ending as them breaking the cycle. I always viewed the squall is dead as "the bad ending"
Yeah, the squall is dead theory is a bummer to say the least, although it can make the story make more sense in parts. Not really a fan of it personally.
Its been 26 years
I'm ready to ask the real questions
What happened to Norg
You don't want to know what's in the hot dogs
@@tropezando So thats what make them so good... Fushifuru Fushifuru
@@ryanarnold4410 zell likes it
Becoming a Mumba and a GF later that you can summon with an item.
Fantheory
@@happypepper9326nah the alien guys only want to become cute moombas nothing more
I love R=U although I don't necessarily believe that our Rinoa is doomed to become Ultimecia. I think Ultimecia was a Rinoa, but that there is always hope of a better outcome this time around because of what we learn and experience. But the thing is, there is no such thing as a permanent happy ending. Life will always throw us curve balls. Perhaps Squall and Rinoa have a mostly amazing and happy life together. But then Squall dies, as all people do, while Sorceress Rinoa continues to live on. How will the world change? How will she change, as centuries pass? How might YOU change if you lived for 500 years and also had something eating up your memories? That, to me, is a big part of why the theory is compelling. You might end up as something quite different from where you started.
There is no "a Rinoa". FFVIII is not one of those idiotic multiverse stories from modern pop culture. It happens in a loop. Rinoa does not become Ultimecia and there is only one RInoa. The reason why Ultimecia does what she does is because she can control Edea while sitting in the future and gets access to the memories of "older Ultimecia who died". She knows she dies by the SeeDs and wants to stop it. But she cannot. They kill her, Squall gets sent back to the orphanage and the cycle continues. That is why Edea created the Garden. Squall told her. That is why Edea-Ultimecia calls Squall the legendary SeeD. Because she knows he has defeated her already dead older self. The SeeDs and Ultimecia are doomed to fight forever in a story about the inevitability of things. Just like Ellone tried to help the cast but she only sent them back for things to happen the way they did. The only exception for the sake of romanticism where they broke consistency was when Ellone could influence a teeny tiny moment for Squall and Rinoa in space. Which makes no sense but it is for the sake of the love trope.
@@Cetra29theory.
Perfectly said! I also like to think that Ultimecia's true goal was to perpetuate her own existence by allowing Rinoa to inherit sorceress powers, though she didn't plan for a time loop to occur. Her plan to compress time certainly did bring Squall back there didn't it? She's just forgotten why, it seems
I subscribe to Ulti being the first Rinoa to attempt stopping... herself? In order to save Squall's life and defeat Ultimecia, she junctions Squall as a GF, creates Griever, and then becomes Ultimecia. The Rinoa that we play with/as is the one that finally breaks the cycle and saves Squall without resorting to turning him into Griever.
@@Cetra29 I gotta stop you for a second there, the idea of alternate timelines is not the same as modern multiverse.
Square has been teasing us with this one for quite some time now. Remember when Dissidia dropped? Yeah, Ultimecia's weapons were named after Rinoa's 💀
I like to think R=U (or at least a variant) but the events of final fantasy VIII break the time loop thus resulting in a dawn of the new day happy ending
The end of the game is literally the loop resetting. Edea finds out about Gardens and Ultimecia gives her the power. "Breaking loops" makes no sense. Anybody who ever made a story about timeloops that break does not understand them in the first place. To "break" something there needs to be a difference in events. But where does the difference come from? If it is a logical timeloop written by somebody who does not just mean "prime events repeat" everything happens 100% the same, otherwise it would not be a timeloop.
@@Cetra29 Have you ever played the original Final Fantasy, the first one? It's literally about a time loop, but at least in some translations, Chaos claims that once his power has grown sufficiently from countless loops, he will 'break out from it' to destroy everything.
Logically speaking, of course, a time loop doesn't change between repeats. But, it's a *fantasy* story. Things can be weird and cycles can be broken just because the story demands it, or the power of love, or other such things.
In fact, that's how Final Fantasy 1 ends. The heroes break the time loop, and as a result, their heroic deeds are forgotten entirely because the threat was a paradox and was erased from history.
@@Cetra29 Have you ever used magic? Probably not, which is why you either take pre-existing rules or make up your own. The idea that there is exactly one kind of timeloop and it is the one that always existed and never changed is dumb because we don't even have evidence of such a thing in reality, so you can't even talk against it on that level.
@@SemudaraThat's kinda different. The events of the game up until that point are the time loop. Chaos gives his powers to create the Archfiends, the Archfiends use the soul of Garland to create Chaos from all the power he gifted them and all the power he gained within each round in the time loop. But ultimately the story was supposed to be that him breaking from the time loop was escaping to the realm of the gods who created that world(Our world) however We the Warrior of Light entered his world to end him.
Strangers of Paradise added a layer of meta commentary by saying the realm of the gods was another created realm and the Warrior of Light was his Actual trump card. He and the Archfiends were using the time loop to train the Warriors of Light to become the ones to kill the gods.
Its a pretty good theory and i like it because i feel that it adds depth but at the same time, it really is important that people can distinguish between a fan theory and what's presented, ofc its up to interpretation but its important to keep in mind that at the end of the day its a big assumption
It is so good to see FF8 content in 2024, thank you so much for this video, I love this game!!!
There’s a key line though when they’re in the Ragnarock where she wishes she could stop time in that one moment (when she’s sitting in Squall’s lap). I think it’s more than a coincidence that Ultimecia wants to compress time into a single moment and the fact that Squall’s lion is called Griever and her GF shares the same name.
100% right. The now powerful sorceress stating that, cannot just be coincidence. Too many coincidences, it must have been intended secretly by a writer. Great narrative depth
It's been almost 2 decades since I played FF8 but iirc the scan spell said Ultimecia gave Griever a physical form specifically from Squall's ideal vision of the ultimate Guardian Force so Griever is definitely not her personal GF at least not until she summoned it from Squall's mind.
I've always adored wild theories. I delved hard into the absurd theories of Final Fantasy as well as things like A Song of Ice and Fire. If I agree with it or not seems to be secondary to me. I love how people view stories through different lenses, the creativity and wild ideas, and people trying to piece together mysteries and loose plot threads. It tickles the brain in such a nice way. The fact that these stories capture people's imaginations to this level is a wonderful thing.
i really appreciate that we can still recieve content online about FF8 in 2024
R=U adds a ton of narrative depth on repeat playthroughs. Squall is dead theory does not imo
I always thought Griever was a version of Squall as well. I think Squall promised to be her knight even if the world went against her. It describes Ultimecia perfectly because she is hunted by SeeD members. Rinoa also is the only one who knows about Griever and what it represents to Squall. It would have added layers to Ultimecia instead of her being a puppeteer through a majority of the game. Holding on to Griever as her personal GF would have caused her to forget since the story said it affected the user's memory if you junction and use them.
I also feel like if the theory had been canon, it would have given way more narrative value to the whole GF amnesia mechanic.
As is, it feels more like a detail thrown in at random to justify the plotpoint of everyone being coincidentally connected without knowing.
It goes from a plot convenience to a foreshadowing of a tragic fate.
Ever since I read this theory a year ago, it’s become my head canon.
It perfectly fits within the story, and I dont really care if the developers do not agree with it.
I could actually forgive the kids and the older players who played FF8 back then for thinking this theory is true, because, unless you comb through every little breadcrumb through the game, which most players won't be able to do on a first or even sceond playthough, the game doesn't explain much about the sorceress Ultimecia or even Adel and their background and how they came to be. So they where probably using the information they had about the more prominent sorceresses, Rinoa and Edea, and imposed that into the others to fill out the blanks.
I wouldnt say for certain that Ultimecia being a Rinoa would necessarily have to mean that theres a time loop and that squall and rinoa are destined to never get a happy ending. it could very well be that our rinoa and squall from the game we play, are actually the only 2 to survive together in their timeline and that by virtue of ultimecia and griever having gone back in time and trying to undo the past, they ended up connecting their times to the one timeline rinoa and squall end up surviving together. so then the theory in that context ends up becoming a hopeful message about how You on your best day can overcome your worst as long as you have companions to rely on to turn the tide and make the difference
I love R=U theory. I know its not perfect, and I know as much as some people love it there are those who love to hate on it. My headcannon is the loops are not infinite and we are playing thru the 3rd or whatever loop and are breaking it permanently during the course of our playthru. The theory gives deep implications on outcomes of time compression and also memory loss due to long term GF use. As well as a more satisfying explanation of Griefer. But love or hate the theory we are all, as you say, keeping the game alive by arguing about it!
i prefer to live in my own headcannon for ff8. It's the only FF where I have to actively make up things for some of the situations to fill in gaps and I find that incredibly engaging, whether it was intentional or not. Another golden piece of the puzzle for this game is the hyne lore. Maybe you could make a video of it sometime. I've seen some reaaaally good theories about it that really made me change the way I look at the game.
This game (and FF7 imho) took the "Final Fantasy" title to such a whole 'nother philosophical level
Ff8 content? In the 24th year of 2000? Take this like.
The Theory actually would make for a great story and I really like the thought of that, but it doesn't make the game any worse for not being the truth behind it.
Still, sometimes the stories "told by accident" or the once we theorise ourself bring it to a hole nother level.
Definately worth the wait. Nice step up in the Edit! My take on the topic is that Ultemecia is the result of perpetual War. The time loop is broken when Squall kills her and Breaks the Succession of witches. Even if Rinoa isnt ACTUALLY Ultemecia, i think the idea is that she could end up like that without Squall breaking the loop and coming home.... which is something Laguna never managed to do ;) - Jack
I agree. I think the parallels are intended to make you think, "Jeez, she's like the anti-Rinoa." But then when she has Griever, her castle is at the flower field, etc. you kinda go, "Wow, could even Rinoa become something like this?"
FF8 morale - everything is temporary, unless you collide time
U Right.
An Icon! A Legend! A she is the moment! I love your videos it really gives another retrospective!❤
thank you!!!
FF8 is my all-time favorite video game. When I first played it in 1999 and subsequently finished it in the very early aughts, this theory didn't exist yet. When I came across it on the internet many years later, I was like "nah man, these people be trippin'" LOL.
But then I got the remastered version on Steam earlier this year, finished it for the first time in 15 years and everything clicked. I was "converted", now I'm a firm believer of this theory and the game makes SO much more sense with it being this type of " apocryphal canon".
I've never played FF8 but this video gave me a new perspective on the original ending of Mass Effect 3. The original ending was so preposterous that the only way to make sense of it was that Shepard (the protagonist) was assimilated by the Reapers (the bad guys) at some point in the mid game.
That fan theory turned a shit ending into something that was actually genius. The company debunked that theory and re-wrote the ending in a patch. But now, I can be happy with my head cannon ending.
Thanks! :)
I always really liked the theory and your explanation as to why people felt it "fixed" a lot of the issues I had with the game is on point. What were on their surface disappointingly shallow storylines and backstories (my opinion obviously) suddenly recursed into themselves and became something much more complex and tragic.
Personally it feels very bland and 2 dimensional without the endless time loop concept. It's the idea that she's fighting the very tormented person she will become, and there's no way to stop it, but despite the tragedy of it all, Ultimecia/Rinoa at least gets to relive the happier times as well.
It's the realization that the real tragedy is that during that brief reprieve, Ultimecia/Rinoa experiences the very same love and happiness that will become the fuel for her descent into madness, and by extension for the loop itself, when it is again taken away. Then there's the chicken and the egg aspect of it.
It's a cruel little cosmic joke.
But anyway, I do prefer the theory.
obviously, people like or dislike Rinoa=Ultimecia for a whole bunch of reasons that were not covered here, nothing wrong with that, everyone can enjoy what they want!
From what region do you attribute your dialect?
FF8 and Ultimecia's background is already extremely tragic and poetic so I don't need R=U. But they just never explored it enough sadly. Ultimecia was a person who was ostracized and prosecuted for being a witch her whole life and gave up on people and was just afraid of dying. (Im guessing it was like a medieval witch trail allusion) And it parallels both Squall and Rinoa's story combined. It's even all paralleled in FF8s creation myth with Hyne is about people wanting to protect their children and fighting over magic. From ancient past to far future the story is more about breaking the cyclical human nature while Ultemecia is trying to break the cycle of life and death unnaturally.
We get a clue towards this during Seifer's interrogation of Squall, where his questions make it pretty clear Ultimecia has no idea why SeeD is opposed to her.
She was persecuted her entire life, had no idea why it was happening, found a way to potentially destroy her persecutors, and in doing so became the reason that persecution took place in the first place.
What Ultimecia's background?
@@wizardsummoner9124 We're not given many details but there's enough info in the game to infer she suffered prejudice for being a Sorceress, which at some point escalated to her becoming a target of SeeD without ever understanding why. She then sought a way of escaping the prejudice and hostility she faced.
Got a copy of Brave Fencer Musashi when I was a kid with ff8 demo disk. I probably spent ten hours with what was basically 1 fight.
Great video! There’s never enough ff8 content that’s a new take. Thanks.
Of All The Instalments of FF number 8 Always hit Me Differently in a good way.
None could give me that Europhic Eerie state of Mind at Endgame.
The R=U theory always felt needlessly contrived, to me. The game says that there are an unknown number of sorceresses, and many of them choose to hide their powers for fear of reprisal. The game also doesn't say if a single woman can inherit more than one sorceress' power. We also know that some sorceresses (Adele, for example) are unusually powerful and motivated to use that power. So it's not unthinkable that either (1) Utltimecia is just a rare but inevitable sorceress who has unusually high power (and enough knowledge of lore and history to make effective use of it) or (2) she's a sorceress who has inherited many copies of sorceress power as a result of killing off lots of people and being the only woman left to receive it. The fact that Ultimecia eventually inherited the *power* that Rinoa has is pretty likely. The idea that she is Rinoa herself is not.
In regards to inheriting more than one sorceress' power we see two examples in game. First with Rinoa inheriting Edea's power then Adel's power and also with Edea who said she became a sorceress at 5 and then inherited the powers from Ultimecia.
What if she's Squall and Rinoa's direct descendant?
Ultimecia all along!
Beacuse it makes the focus of VIII, the romance, both more integral to the plot, but also tragic, which is compelling.
It also fixes Ultimecia as an antaongist who has no real discernable motive for her actions other than cartoonishly 'I'm evil because I am".
Ultimecia gives us more about her motivation than most FF villains who aren't from 6, 7, 9, 12, 13-2, or 15.
Lol, nobody pays attention, this is ridiculous. Ultimecia is not "evil because she is evil." The cast is stuck in a bootstrap paradox. That is why she does what she does. She knows she is gonna die by the SeeDs because it happens in a loop that nobody can get out of. She wants to kill everybody because they kill her because she wants to kill everybody and so on. It is the same as why Link in Ocarina of Time has the Song of Storms or why Harry Potter can save Sirius Black. "What happened, happened." That is the phenomenon of a bootstrap paradox. It has no beginning and no end. Since nobody started one could even make the argument that there are neither Squall nor Ultimecia are good or evil. They just react to what they cannot get out of.
Tragedy is not inherently compelling and I'm sick of the notion that it is. Making Rinoa into Ultimecia solves nothing and only adds angst and drama for the sake of angst and drama which isn't an interesting or compelling way to write a story or individual character.
so it depends a lot on how seriously you take the canon of character development in other media. Opera Omnia actually gives us a few more hints as to who she is and what might have motivated her, and since the developers of Opera Omnia went to great pains to work with the people who actually created the original games when writing the characters (this was often why characters from 14 really lagged behind in getting updates or appearances in cutscene as Yoshi-P is always such a busy man)
In that game they elaborate that it was her status as an outcast in society and her loneliness that motivated her to attempt to compress time and make it so that more sorceresses could exist at once. If this is indeed the truth, this puts her story as FAR more relatable, possibly closer to what one might see with Emet Selch in terms of being able to connect to the motives behind the villainy
@@Cetra29Finally, a commenter that played the game with their eyes open.
I will die on the hill of "Rinoa is Ultimecia" being a good idea. It strengthens ALL the themes of the game!
FF8 builds itself on the bond between Squall and Rinoa. The two of them embracing is literally the splash image for the game. The culminating moment for their relationship takes place in the back of the orphanage. "Even if the entire world became your enemy, I would be your knight."
In the game proper, this line is a sweet, but empty declaration of devotion... but if Rinoa is also Ultimecia, suddenly it becomes a moment of foreshadowing. After all, if Rinoa is Ultimecia, then the strong implication would be that Griever is what became of Squall in her timeline. (which is already a stronger reason for Griever to be there than the nothing we get in the proper story)
Now, instead of being what TV tropes would call a "Giant space flea from nowhere", Ultimecia represents a version of our primary pair who rejected the world... a shadow the duo have to face before they can commit to their path to try to live their lives as part of it without fear of her powers.
It just... I dunno... it improves EVERYTHING.
It's as fanmade today as it was when the game was released. I heard this theory on my schoolyard, bro, and it felt as fake then as it feels now. It's a theory made by smarter people that whoever wrote VIII's bizarrely stupid argument.
Is a stupidity, square only creates a cult of wackos with nothing better to do
Everyone can see it however they want. That's how art works .
Everbody can think about a message what they want, that does not make it their interpretation correct. That is how communication psychology works. Kazushige Nojima is the sender of the message. His thoughts and story count. That's it.
Yeah, don't get the obsession with "canon" that some ppl have. There is no "what really happened".
First off. Excellent video! You really did a great deep dive on the history of the theory and presented it nicely.
Personally. This theory never resonated with me as someone who LOVES FF8’s despite it’s issues. Mainly because you’d have to fundamentally change your understanding of what it is you see and experience in game and heavily tap into the realm of personal interpretation. I enjoy stories like that a great deal! But FF8 never seemed like one of those to me. You’d also have to view the two characters in question very differently
Ultimecia is my favorite villain in the whole franchise despite the fact that admittedly she wasn’t the best executed. She is a self-fulfilling villain… she has made this elaborate plan, going across time and space to ensure that her demise never happens. And yet. It is exactly her plan that made it happen. And I find that incredibly tragic and sad in it’s own context. And makes her a foil to Squall in a way. It also fits in the themes of Destiny and Fate the game heavily emphasizes.. you cannot escape what is destined to happen no matter what you do. And her insane plan to do so backfired on her. Making her worst fear happen sooner
I can get the appeal of this theory as it had been explained to me ad nauseam and practically HALF the fanbase of FF8 loves it. But to me. The story we experience in game is great in it’s own. Despite the execution flaws.
I've known about this theory for more than a couple years, and it sparked my love for ff8 all over again when I heard it, much deeper and darker. Just yesterday I started dabbling into this theory again, so its awesome to see how relevant the theory still is with a new video on it the very next day. Like most fans, we enjoyed the game throughout, but the thought of ultimecia just being this villain that comes way later in the game out of nowhere with no real attachment or even much care. The progression of the game without this theory is just playing the story too safe, felt like a normal good ending fantasy that you don't have to think too much about after beating it, but to know ultimecia is a rinoa from say another timeline is heartwrenching and gives depth to the villain.
I like r=u because I like it more when the seemingly light hearted theme of love and friendship is suddenly contested with the reality of tragedy and suffering. Kind of reflects our life. We can love, we can be happy but our world is still full of sad stories, tragedies, accidents.
FF8 was my first final fantasy game and since then i have always wondered why the series is called "final fantasy". To me, the story would always center around the characters' last chance of happiness as their story would eventually spiral into darkness.
This could also be the reason why my favorites are those with really sad endings or dark theories: (spoiler alert) like when yuna lived at tidus' expense, the theory that all of humanity actually succumbed to starscourge in ff15, or that we are the actual villains in ff12, or that the souls in ff13 reincarnated on earth with ton of positivity but we all know what earth's history.
Not fanatical, but the Theory always made sense to me. No, I have or had any problems enjoying the game one way or the other. But to each their own.
I don't like R=U, but that original version sounds way better than what has survived until today. I've been a fan since before it was released but didn't go on the forums and such so didn't learn it until it had distilled a bit. The idea of a completely different version of Rinoa becoming Ultimecia is acceptable as a backstory, but definitely not the explanation of it I usually hear. The way it was first posed to me was the Rinoa in the game would eventually become Ultimecia.
Thanks for the vid. I think VIII is absolutely all over the place and R=U is great for tying things together a little bit, giving it some actual meaning. I'd love the game regardless, but SE should adopt it as canon because the fans pieced together a better story than they managed to.
its been 20 years ago,, back then i found the story is light but sometimes very confusing a lot, but i really did enjoy the game (if i were still teen surely will hate R=U, but in this age R=U feels much more thrilling fun, combination of sad and impressed)
I had never heard the theory of Squall becoming Griever. It does make sense, in how naming Griever changes the boss's name. And it's a moment shared by Squall and Rinoa. It's also an interesting precursor to FFX's Final Aeon.
Maybe they read up on the theory and thought, you know what... I like that idea. here's my version of it. lol
I do remember this theory going around at the FFWA (Final Fantasy: Worlds Apart) forums some 20+ years ago.
The simple answer is that you're allowed to just not enjoy something. It doesn't mean you need to "fix" it by inventing some convoluted explanation for why all the things you don't like are actually not bad. Just let it be bad.
Personally, I enjoy the game even accepting that the theory is wrong. I mean, you'd have to be delusional to believe otherwise when Kitase already debunked it.
But I enjoy it *more* when thinking of the version, the headcanon, that Rinoa is Ultimecia.
To me, it makes it go from "Pretty good, but I don't get it" to "This is great and poetic".
So yeah, no hate on the game's actual and official story. I just like the interpretation even better.
@@KlausiboyZI am in fact delusional and continue to live my life as though it’s real.
I’ve been a fan of this game since the first time I played it. I’ve never heard of this theory. While it’s interesting, I won’t recognize it as canon until the creators say that was the intent. I like the happy ending. And there’s nothing wrong with Ultimecia having some mystery. Reality is like this too. You’re not always going to have some deep backstory revealed to you about everyone you’ve encountered. But, I agree with you OP. Live in the FFVIII universe you want to live in.
You’ve earned my subscription which I don’t do often. Wonderful explanation and theory. I came off shedding tears from the music of FFVIII but you’re a breath of fresh air to fan logic thank you very much for taking time in what I believe to be the most under rated final fantasy of them all.
I always thought it was pretty clear that Rinoa's Sorceress's power got passed down to Ultimecia, which then gets paradoxed back to Edea via the time compression, and so becomes Rinoa's again. Theoretically making them both infinitely powerful, but apparently not actually.
Ultimecia is more of an eldrich horror than a real person, she can't relate to any other humans in a meaningful way beyond domination, and has powers beyond our understanding.
i never got even the slightest hint back in the day that she and Rinoa were the same. Rinoa seems like she'd follow in Edea's steps and pass on the Sorceress' gift rather than let it drag her life out infinitely.
I’ve heard of this theory as early as 2000, very intriguing
My takeaway from it is that Rinoa is Ultimecia (so many clues and hints) but the time compression is sorta Back to the Future rules, ie Ultimecia's future was default until she travelled back and changed something (set the plot in motion).
Something else I thought of but am not quite so in favour of is the idea that yes, Squall does die when he's hit with the ice, but we were playing in Ultimecia's timeline up to that point. When we change discs, we change to the altered timeline.
Anyway, let's all enjoy the game. :)
The final boss fight and the witches inside time compression are honestly the coolest thing i have seen in an rpg to this day.
The final events felt rushed in a way, but are also so experimental and innovative that i appreciate the ambition.
Will enjoy this. Some months back I found your channel through Orion85 when they mentioned you were a channel to keep an eye on. It's really cool to see your channel growing.
FF8 was the first console FF game I played, and I loved it until I played it when I was older and realized how crappy and disjointed the story is. It's like a different story after Disc 1, it went from mercenary kids to time-nonsense with not enough being explained.
I think the reality is they didn't finish writing the story before completing the game, and the direction didn't account for this. However I also think that's not a bad thing, because it creates a lot of intrigue that this video shows pretty well.
Fuck moombas though for real what the hell is that all about
Correction: WE are not. Some ppl are. Just like some ppl still think squall died at the end of CD 1, because they didnt connect the dots yet that edea used her limit break. Sometimes we percieve things different as Kids and only realize much later.
Squall told us Griever is a legendary mythical beast. So multiple people aside from Squall mustve believed in it. Also it is very much unlikely that squall made his gunblade and ring by himself (given how his weapon is literally in a weapon magazine, so the griever design is a standard model). So Griever is just a Symbol of fantasy and strength, just like we believe in dragons. Noone believed it could actually exist and even more, be a GF.
and the heavy Story point of ff8 Was that its a perfect time loop depending on edeas decision, while as children, we thought the reveal of ultimecia was the heavy Story plot, so they wanted to give her more meaning
Agreeeeeeee
Squall tells her Griever is a legendary beast, but it came across to me like a lonely kid describing his imaginary friend, and trying to impress the listener.
I'd buy your explanation about Greiver if yhe game didn't let you name it, and then use that same name in the final battle. If it was just a legendary GF and it turns out to belong to Edea, sure, fun. But you name the ring, and the game goes out of its way to assign that name to the boss. Why? It creates an intentional, unmissable connection between it and the player (and by extension Squall), rather than just being background detail. What was the purpose of doing that if there wasn't meant to be something more meaningful?
@@MmeCShadow maybe giving us hope that griever could be a gf that we would be able to use, only to be let down immediately afterwards when realizing, no. its not for you, its not yours, you didnt get anything after the cutscene and when fighting ultimecia u realize why you wont get it. right now, your only connection that "rinoa is ultimecia" is that she was present when you name the standard name of griever and that youre able to change it. but the lion already had the name griever when it got engraved on squalls gunblade and when the blacksmith made the super intricate weapon box thats standing in his garden room. plus, you are not actually naming the ring. you are confirming that the name is griever, but the icon that you name is actually squalls necklace. they just use the ring as a reason because its more romantic than him giving her his necklace, which it seems he has a whole jewelry kit of, the "griever bling bling pack to his weapon".
i mean, what else do you want aside from a dev who wrote and worked on the game to confirm that its not true. to question thoughts behind the process that his coworkers who he worked with on this game for over a year and had regular meetings to never drop THAT detail in any of their presentations about lore?
I remember thinking this after digging around in the in game encyclopedia, but that was in a full vacuum, divorced from any fan discussion. I gave it up after a 2nd playthrough, though
Because there are a lot of hints, because it's a good theory, because it makes the story better and more interesting.
Love your videos. I personally would love a full remake (doesn't have to be visualized in that AAA treatment that VII got) where they not only integrate this theory but all of the other cut content and things they ran out of time and budget for such as Laguna's tale being 50% of the story. More of Hyne and Adel and Ultimecia etc. I think there absolutely is a way to execute R=U where it doesn't ruin things but just builds on the foundation of what was there. For example I can see why people would say it removes the happy ending - but they could also make it clear that by end credits we have snipped/deleted that thread of fate/future from ever occurring after she is defeated. Like killing a possibility. That's my preference but even if they did just teasingly include vague references that play it up as a reference I'd be happy. In general I would really hope if VIII ever does get remade, that they just go absolutely nuts with additions and changes and improvements. (This coming from someone who adores the FFVIII we have now)
Sometimes doubt is part of the experience.
I like your take on this. I grew up with FF8 and absolutely love it, but I never knew about this theory. I do find it strange that people are divided about it. Why can't both possibilities exist? (i.e., R = U, but they finally break the loop and get their happy end?) It is rather fascinating to say the least and I will have to think about that the next time I play it.
I love the fan theory but don't consider it canon but never understood why. You put all of my thoughts on why I love it into words and I thank you for it
I love FF8. Even before I heard the REU theory. That being said I love the REU theory.
Hearthbreaking when you find a cool new channel and they only have four videos! haha.
FF8 was my first and remains my favourite of the series. Never cared for the crazy theories but I do wish they would remake the game with more backstory to the world and characters
If I remember right during FF8s remastered release Kitase said Laguna was going to have so much content that he was basically a second protagonist! It kills me I wish we had more FF8 stuff too! Even if it was audio dramas and novels like Nier
@ novels would be amazing, in lieu of waiting 10 years for a remake. It’s nice that there are fans keeping the game alive though.
Considering tidus' dad and Seymore's mother becoming Aeons, I got to say alternative-universe-time-compressed-squal being the GF greiver isn't that far fetched.
This video made me interested in the FF3 = FF8 theory. It's fun but the only connections seem to be Hyne and time shenanigans. Although I do like the smaller stuff like the Djinn and Ifrit connections for the first bosses. Or the clock in Ultimecia's castle pointing to III & VIII.
Edit: I commented way too soon before doing more digging lol I dunno, I'm kinda way convinced there's some connection there, I had never considered Lunatic Pandora as being so similar to the Crystal Tower
I have believed theory 2 completely. The tone shifts and setting shifts so much when he gets critically injured/killed.
I can't speak for others, but the big reason I love the RInoa is Ultemecia theory is due to a couple of reasons. One mentioned in this video.
I want to preface that my version of this theory differs a bit, but uses the two timelines theory as a basis.
I like it because
1. Ultimecia lacks humanity to me. Having her spiral into madness due to a loss of a loved one (like Squall in the original timeline) makes her more relatable.
2. It creates a very rare and poetic scenario where technically everybody wins. The main cast put a stop to Ulti, and Ulti was able to save the man she loved and the her in the new timeline will be able to live her life with him beside her. I don't think that means Squall and Rinoa's happy ending doesn't last. It is a brand new timeline that has been changed due to Ultimecia's presence. The bad end has been averted.
Funny enough, I think the devs gave a nod to the fan theory in Dissidea. IIRC they gave the two similar mannerisms in their animations. It's been a while so I might be misremembering, I just remember having that impression.
Final Fantasy 8 grew to become my number 1 favorite over the years. Tied with X for a long time. But I love the storyline and the possible idea of Squall actually being dead after the events of disc 1. Or of course Rinoa actually being Ultemecia…. They need to remake this game
I like that the game allows you to either believe it or not and be right either way. While my personal head canon believes that R=U, I wouldn't want it to be retconned and explicitly made into a chapter of the game. "Shall we dance?"
Despite playing this game through several times, I have never heard of this. Awesome fan theory! Why not?
Keep this content coming!
So I went back through the storyline and there's one big flaw with the Rinoa = Ultimecia theory. The Parade in Deling City.
See, according to the theory, when Edea sends the Iguions after Rinoa, if she had succeeded in killing her it would have created an ontological paradox. While we're talking about a game that incorporates a massive paradox at the end in order to get to Ultimecia, the Deling City paradox is one Ultimecia would be dead-set against allowing to happen if Rinoa was intended to eventually become her. Not only would it undo the fabric of reality - something Ultimecia actually wants to happen - it would destroy her from multiple generations in the past, wiping out the existence of the one person who wants to stay alive in a world of Time Compression.
Unless she Knew it would fail, thus making Rinoa herself stronger in the process while Galvanizing Squall's desire to protect her, which ultimately is why he kills Ultimecia. Something she doesn't remember because of her GF made to immortalize Squall if he dies after the events of the game...
I had no idea this was a “fan theory”. Without ever going into forums or participating very much with the online FF8 fanbase, something like this was always my understanding of the canon story. I don’t know about the alternate universes stuff-some of the details as presented seem iffy-but *something like this* was always, to my eyes, what the game itself suggested was true. Ultimecia’s GF is even called “Griever”, like Squall’s chain mascot, because of the Rinoa connection.
I thought it was because Squall saw the Griever as the ultimate manifestation of raw power, so she used it as her final weapon to invoke despair.
Also I came here because the R=U theory always amusing to me and didn't expect to get so emotional at the end of the video! FF8 is really special to me.
I like the theory about Ultimecia being a corrupted Rinoa from an alternate timeline, as it help gives Ultimecia some depth, as well as giving the time travel elements in Final Fantasy VIII more meaning.
I don’t think it ruins FF8’s story or ruins both Rinoa and Ultimecia as characters, as it pretty much provides more backstory to the time travel elements of VIII, and having Ultimecia as a future Rinoa and a Squall who died in another timeline allows the current Squall & Rinoa (the ones from the events of FF8) to change their own paths and erased their original fates, so they could live in a brighter future together.
R=U ultimately undermines the story.
It's a typical love story with a boostrap paradox, not a tragedy with a messy timeline problem.
Ultimecia is intended to be a foil to Rinoa. She highlights what Rinoa could become if she didn't have Squall, and what she explicitly isn't.
Those who think R=U "fixes" the game didn't understand the game. It produces more plotholes than it fills.
There's no timelines, it's a closed causal loop, which is the entire reason behind Ultimecia's existence, which is already tragic enough without making her Rinoa.
And Griever isn't anything to do with it. Ultimecia specifically reads Squall's mind during the last battle, identifies the thing he believes to be the strongest GF and brings it to life then and there.
Exactly!
What I love here is you describing the original theory shows away for both sides to be in harmony.
R=U but from other timelines, however we break that loop and avoid that fate.
Liberi Fatali
Could there be a double meaning here of Liberation from Fate?
Great video, the only thing I would add is that Dissidia plays with the theory a little too.
Ultimately I think it doesn't matter, as creators tend to change things afterwards anyway if it would bring in more money.
Never really liked this theory, but I love FF8 content ❤ Thanks!!
Ultimecia is great as her own character, but it's still a fun fan theory. Ultimecia's castle is my favorite Final Fantasy dungeon. She's fierce and tragic.
I think as a theory it's pretty good. It was debunked and is optional so you can just leave it as a head canon which fits nicely with the ingame facts.
And yep all happy endings are only ever temporary eventually someone dies but players can just choose to ignore this and have their happy ending after all.
Wrong, Developers retracted their statement, there is a video on youtube here.
If you are interested, there is a guy named GeraruTaru who explains in detail this theory. Nice video ❤
come for the content stay for the accent lol
I like the theory because I think makes the story better. Personally I still think the happy ending can happen simply because history was changed with all the time travel and what was certain is not anymore.
i also think that its up to us to decide what is true and whats not in regards to ultimecia, for me Squall and Rinoa got their deserved happy ending!
IF the theory were true, the story could have been done so much better in its conclusion. The theory is only great if Rinoa is able to find her humanity again through her re-living this period with her friends. Through endless time revisiting the events which bore you, finding yourself in that moment and recapturing the joy lost to time, that would elevate the story, instead of diminish the story to nihilism.
Our relationship with our games is so deeply personal, it often defies rational explanation.
I've noticed a bunch of lore videos about FF8 being dropped recently. This is grear considering the game always had this deep history in-game that rarely gets discussed
This theory is just too good. Would this make the whole game a tragic time loop? Yes. Does that take away from the beautiful moment at the end of the game where Squall and Rinoa have a lifetime of love and world peace ahead of them? No. I like to think that during ultimecia's final moments as she's transferring her power to Edea and completing the cycle, she's actually at peace and is finally able to remember her eternal love for Squall.
FF8 videos in this day and age ?? great stuff.
A lot of people dislikes overcomplications from fictional stories, while at the same time try to add complications to stories they deemed as lacking in complication. But almost everyone felt the appeal of feeling smart about themselves.
The problem is then when people just simply don't perfectly understand the existing complications within the story that's written by the author, and feel the need to fixed it with something that their limited brain can understand. This is what Rinoa = Ultimecia for those so hard for it as you presented above is actually showing.
And it's showing not just from that specific theory, and not limited to FF8 either. The Squall is dead theory is also a showcase of how a lot of people just are not on the necessary height of brain power to get the complication written by the author. FF7 Remake story is one of the most recent example, where lot of people are criticizing it as convoluted. They're mostly incapable of seeing and understanding things that's not written and explained for them as clear cut as possible.
In reality, if we understand how things works and many popular scientific theories, most of those theories can easily be debunked with the simplest explanations. Like for example, Squall can't die because of the grandfather paradox. The reality itself will always restore Squall's condition because whatever kills him won't happened if he dies due to how he's the one that tells past Edea about his journey of killing Ultimecia. The effect can't erase the cause.
Now what is the simplest explaination that counters R = U, aside from the author'a own words?
1. Griefer is simply being drawn and summoned from Squall there and then at the final battle. What? You don't think that Ultimecia out of everyone there incapable of using "Draw", right?
2. Sorceress of FF8 world are not all immortals and none are invincible. Not even Ultimecia, at any point, canonically described as an immortal. Adel is also not an immortal. Elone already dies for long by the time of Ultimecia. Every single known sorceress is FF8, none of them are immortal...and they can die whenever they want.
So again, in my opinion, it's just people wanting to feel smart about themselves, whenever they're not actually smart enough to understand what they read. They need the theory to "fix" it, to replaced things that they don't understand. Majorities of people only like complications that they personally can understand.
I always thought Ultimecia was all the sorceresseseses. I think you can't explain Griever with Rinoa, but all the witches who live in real time are time-compressed into Ultimecia - no other creature can really live like that.
Whoa. I didn't know this was such a intense subject.
Like, don't get me wrong. I love 8, but it's very up and down.
I loved the Squall is dead theory, but it being wrong certainly doesn't change the game for me. 😅
I am probably the only person in a very long time to have thought Ultimecia was either future version of Quistis or a descendant of Quistis, the father wouldnt have been important in this theory but all the pieces i had was the hairstyle was too similar, eye shape/lip shape and the sass of her smirk was just almost identical if not just a darker version of quistis, and the hatred for SeeD just made me theorize more that she could of just been a descendant, a hatred for SeeD/garden keeping Quistis or whichever the ancestor was - away from home too long until ultimecia news reached to her of their death, assuming the original timeline never played out the same. I even compared the faces of all the female characters and rinoa barely comes close, but quistis does, and while the clothes is a bit of a stretch they both wear a tight dress.
Good video but I'm curious about something. You only have four videos total at the moment right? How did you manage to get 1500 subs in two months?
Kerning on that thumbnail font had me like “who is Betra Ying”
I like the original story quite a lot, but the R=U theory makes it even better IMO.
The Rinoa being Ultimecia idea is so cool. They should just make it canon.
She's not but...
I think from what she says it hints that she was artificially created in some attempt to create and control a powerful sorceress as weapon. Maybe some military scientists collected DNA Serpentor style from multiple, historically significant Sorceresses in a lab? Hence the 'Ultimate Sorceress' This would mean that maybe there's some Rinoa floating around in there.
Her castle was built on top of the flower field where the lovers made their promise to meet. She crawled her way back to the flower field even when her body was disintegrating and refuses to die. Only fools are unable to see that rinoa and ultmecia are the same person and how the entire time paradox and time loop was formed to begin with.
The developers also undebunked the theory (after debunking it years ago). So it’s very much possible
Japan on the canonicity of themes in games has always tried to deny things and save face. It's like Wrestling Kayfabe to them