Our Flag Means Death: The Real History of Transgender Pirates
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
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A couple of small quick corrections. First, Olun isn't the cook; that was a mistake in my notes. Also, I didn’t make this clear enough in the video. Jim is non-binary and not a trans man nor technically trans masc. When I discuss trans masc within the video, I discuss the presentation and how many trans masc & nonbinary folks relate to Jim and the trans history behind Jim's character. I don't wish to take anything away from nonbinary representation or discussions of nonbinary people, especially as I myself am nonbinary (and trans fem too). So the fact that I did not clarify and better describe the distinction in the video is on me. Jim, the character, and Vito, the person, are nonbinary, not trans men or trans masc, and want to be entirely clear with that.
HBOMax's "Our Flag Means Death" has been rightly praised for its beautiful portray of Taika Waititi's Blackbeard and Rhy's Darby's Steed Bonnet's amazing gay romance storyline. Yet, we often overlook the beautiful representation of nonbinary pirate Jim. So, we're looking at the nonbinary pirates behind Jim.
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A couple of small quick corrections. First, Olun isn't the cook, that was a mistake in my notes. Also, I didn’t make this clear enough in the video. Jim is non-binary and not a trans man nor technically trans masc. When I discuss trans masc within the video, I discuss the presentation and how many trans masc & nonbinary folks relate to Jim and the trans history behind Jim's character. I don't wish to take anything away from nonbinary representation or discussions of nonbinary people, especially as I myself am nonbinary (and trans fem too). So the fact that I did not make this clear the distinction in the video is on me. Jim the character and Vice, the person, are nonbinary, not trans men or trans masc, and want to be entirely clear with that.
*Vico
I appreciate the distinction between being Nonbinary whilst having a certain agab, and being transmasc.
Something that's always been frustrating for me is how the label of transmasc is just applied to people whether or not they personally identify with it. It's happened to me despite being a fem Nonbinary person lol. At times it feels like being placed in a binary,,within being Nonbinary.
Like sure, I relate to Jim. I relate to a lot of experiences transmascs have.
And yeah,
Obviously some people are Nonbinary and transmasc, but not everyone is. And it's affirming to hear someone understand that.
You’re trans fem?
I thought you’re a trans woman
Doctor Who is having the first Trans companion. I hope it's for the right reasons and not for the sake of diversity
@@leejohnstone4663 my only note to what you said here is, would you worry if they had cast a white man if it would be “for the right reasons”. Not attacking, just a poke at the thought process ❤️
The Universal Public Friend lived in the 18th century. They were an American preacher who specifically used they/them pronouns. I find the Friend very cool, because they prove that non-binary people existed centuries before. So Jim is definitely historically accurate.
I randomly stumbled upon their story a few days ago while on an extended wiki-walk of obscure religious topics. Their story is one you find out about and immediately ask, "why haven't they made a movie about this?"
The Friend doesn't go by they/them. The Friend is "I don't have pronouns" but unironically.
Didn't the friend not use any pronouns at all?
I read the Friend ordered people to avoid pronouns altogether and only modern people have started talking about them with they/them pronouns. Either way their story is crazy!
They also are broadly aligned with the views of The Religious Society of Friends, (Quakers) who were (and still are) very radical leftists in society. Quakers are completely devoted to complete equality and building an egalitarian society. As a radical leftist and also a pagan, I think that Friends are some of the only good Christians
Hi Jessie,
As a historian of the 17th century, I can say that the portrayal of Jim is less inaccurate than most people would assume. As you note gender norms change over time and are different depending on culture, race, and even class.(minor quibble Our flag means death is 18th century). Just off the top of my head there are two 17th century figures who give some view to some of the very interesting lives of a couple of individuals we might think of as trans-people from the 17th century.
Thomas(ine) Hall who was one of the Jamestown colonists was quite likely intersex in some manner. Hall transitioned between male and female identities throughout their life en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas(ine)_Hall. Generally in cases involving intersex individuals where it came before a court, the person was ordered to adopt one of the two gender roles, but Hall was told to wear a mixture of male and female clothing. Unfortunately nothing about their life after the court case is known; nor exactly how the unusual ruling was intended. It could've been meant just as an attempt at humiliation; it could've been meant as some kind of compromise between a desire to maintain order and Hall's nature; or somewhere in between.
As much as Jim's life resembles that of Reed and Bonny, she also much resembles the exploits of Catalina de Erauso a Spanish Nun who fled to the New World and had a series of very colorful adventures as a conquistador, and was the first female autobiographer to live in the New World. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalina_de_Erauso. Her book is still inprint today.
On the use of "they," I really don't see any inaccuracy tbh. "They" is repeatedly used in tons of cases where the referent's gender is unknown/irrelevant all the way back in the 17th century and continuing all the way to this day. This, despite the repeated efforts of modern grammarians to insist that "they" shouldn't/can't be used as a 3rd person singular; and that we have to use awkward formulations like "one" or "He or she".
A thing I find quite interesting about Catalina de Erauso is also how both feminine and masculine terminations are used in the text, given that Spanish did not have a gender-neutral pronoun at the time, but they clearly found a way to navigate their relationships to gender. I love that he uses both, but at the same time will tell you about shouting death threats at someone who called them "madam" once.
I was about to mention the part about singular they as well! It was predominantly used in the English language all the way back to Middle English (predating the word "you" even) and only began to fall out of prominence in the 19th century as a result of first the rise of the distinct upper class British dialect today and standards in the US based upon those in the northeast of the country, both linked closely to the rise of nationalism and enforced broadly through centralized education teaching a "proper" version of English in the US and UK. So really, the idea that they is only a plural is a somewhat more modern conception.
Jsyk, you used "she" in the third paragraph when you meant "they"
Grammarians that know anything about history, I assure you, are quite happy to welcome back they/them as a third person gender irrelevant word, as it served diligently for a long time and now does again!
Heruline from 18th century France! Just to add my own two cents in.
I think that the casual queerness of the show may be because the creator was oblivious to queercoding, he didn't see what he was doing as big so it helped the relationship feel all the more authentic and natural
The show runner may have been oblivious, but the writers, costume designers, artistic directors, etc, were certainly not.
And I'm convinced that Taika Waititi is working to make the world a little more accepting of queerness every day.
@@dottyjyoung oh yeah Taika's a gift from the stars 🌟
It was a romance, that happened to be queer.
Reminds me of the opposite XD Something Key... Locke & Key. I loved the first season. The second season was.. the opposite. All the characters were suddenly stupid and backwards and we as the audience didn't get to discover anything along with them - it was total shit.
And I think it was the first episode, the writers were like, oh, we should totally insert a gay black dude! So they did. At the dinner table the uncle had a friend who was learning Japanese so he could go to Japan for the rest of the series so the writers wouldn't have to give the _gay black dude_ a meaningful role and they "casually" forced the gay part in there by announcing the wedding for when he got back.
Since the characters went from smart and charismatic in the first series to braindead I stopped watching and a friend who also saw the third season said she remembered the awkward forced dinner table scene and thought nothing of it because it wasn't relevant to the story and she doesn't remember seeing the uncle's partner again.
I thought it was amazing; I never expected any writer to be so stupid as to blatantly and poorly force diversity in and send the only character who isn't cishet and white away forever just to not have to write an actual role or character for them. It was just, wow.
The drop off from an intelligent, fun show, where you as the viewer would discover things along with the characters to the stupidest shit in the history of stupid shit was perfectly timed; exactly at the same time as all their other blatant stupidity and lack of care of what shit they were making. Just, more wow. If I were someone who worked on the first and on the second season I would have traveled to a different planet, changed my name, and get deadly drunk to forget any of it happened.
David Jenkins absolutely was not "oblivious to queercoding". This is a misunderstanding of his comments about how he underestimated the impact queerbaiting could have.
ah yes, our flag means death, the show that prides itself on its historical accuracy, as its creator david "i read the first paragraph on wikipedia" jenkins would confirm
honestly the massive anachronisms are a huge part of the show's charm for me.
Hi Jessie, I'm a Latina woman, and I just want to point out that Jimenez is pronounced he-men-ez not jim-en-ez, and their name is Vico, not Vito
And Oluwande isnt the cook, Roach is the cook 😬
Ahh thank you. I’m never able to pronounce the names of anyone, not even my own family haha, so thank you ❤️❤️❤️
Its confusing just because they are referred to has Jim, so it links in your brain that it's pronounced Jim-en-ez, even though it should be he-men-ez
In fairness, one of the first times Jim's surname is mentioned, it's Lucious mangling it. If you're unfamiliar with Spanish language conventions I could see missing this one
I'm Spanish and agree, but I love of they were called Jim Jim enez, just call them Jim Jim
As a non-binary person, I loved the way that Jim was represented. Not as something fake or as a person who needed to perform their non-binary identity 'correctly' in order for the crew to take them seriously.
Once again, another phenomenal video Jessie. Thank you.
"Who goes to South Carolina?" Anne Bonney was from South Carolina. So, I am guessing, she was staying close to family. Besides, South Carolina was a hub for pirates to sell their loot. Living in that then colony meant she could keep one foot on land with her blood family and one foot in the sea with her pirate life. The best of both worlds.
My dad is one of the "trans people are a fad" people and it gets exhausting to listen to; I'm glad you make these videos on queer history and modern events
As a queer latine, I just LOVED what Vico said about Jim's portrayal! It's amazing to see more nonbinary rep that isn't aliens or sentient objects lmao Much love to you Jessie, thanks for always bringing us so much valuable content.
To me I got in many ways a larger message from our flag. To me(Cis white male, straightish) the show was principally about being your authentic self. Whatever others think of that. I think that is the true heroism of Stede Bonnet is his willingness to be who he wants to be regardless of what people think of it. That is I think what fascinates Blackbeard, who didn't have that courage to face ridicule until meeting Bonnet. One of the most interesting things was that the show at first presents Bonnet as just this ridiculous character and after a few episodes it becomes clear that he's actually heroic and the most courageous character.
One aspect that I think what makes Our Flag means Death so good is that it conveys that larger message through characters who are often literally "queer" in one way or another. It shows the wider issues of the conflict between being your most authentic self and social expectations which everyone should be able to relate to and uses characters who typically wouldn't be given the protagonist roles unless the show was just about their journey of self-discovery.
I want to add that while many aspects of the show are extremely historically accurate, much of the dialogue uses quite modern lingo. Pirates (even gentleman ones) didn’t actually call parts of their closets the “autumn vibes” section. This is a modern figure of speech. So if people are taking issue specifically with the fact that Jim is eventually referred to as gender neutral pronouns when that isn’t strictly accurate, they’d better take issue with like… a good portion of word choices employed by the characters as well.
What i personally like most about jims outing is that, while their portrayal of the nonbinary experience is modern, in universe it could still reasonably have been come up with by the crew imo. Like:
Jim explains they are not really a man anymore but not a woman either and the crew would been like, "but what do we call jim noiw when he and she dont work?" and lucius or stede mention that in written word, they can be used as a neutral pronoun.
Generally the show does a lot of these things where something has no proof of existing in that time, but it also theoretically can't be disproven that people could come up with it.
oh my god, this outfit. it looks so good. and the cute little hat. you look amazing, i'm kind of hoping for more pirate content just so you can bust out that outfit again lol
edit: and the earring! so cute!
RIGHT???
She's got the perfect outfit for every dang video.
Wonderful video. I adore Jim, and I adore the fact that everyone just rolled with everything (yeah there were some questions initially but once those were out of the way Jim could just be Jim).
Also Charleston! Never been but I know of many people who have and whatever is there apparently is amazing
really loved the casual "they/them" pronouns and gender-neutral nouns, especially from Selenis Leyva's character (the nun)
It has nice architecture.
it’s very pretty :)
plus a port city so makes sense for a pirate!
Love this video, but it did make me laugh a little. Ah yes, that historical 'accuracy' it prides itself on... Oluwande's crocs... 1717 being a leap year... the liver being on the left below your ribcage... very accurate! 😅 (This is said very affectionately, because I actually love how blasé they are in regards to period accuracy and basic facts in any number of fields (really adds to the comedy), and I agree with your point Jessie that anachronisms can bring a mirror up to our society today. But it is funny seeing people say that the show is dedicated to accuracy when there's so many places where they clearly don't care about it at all! Also I'm pretty sure David Jenkins has said they're going to diverge from history in the way the story ends, because it doesn't end well irl and they want the show to have a more uplifting ending. So yeah, the amount of details that are actually true is surprising, but that's all the more so because the rest of it is just so not!)
Yes I imagine the ending where Stede Bonnet gets dragged kicking and screaming to the gallows weeks after Blackbeard was shot 5 times and stabbed 20 times wouldn't be the most appealing finale.
13:13 "OFMD- a show that prides itself on historical accuracy" was this sarcastic? I couldn't tell:D
Also, I was thinking about Izzy, when Finntastic Mr. Fox was talking about how easy it is for a transmasculine person to fall into paterns of toxic masculinity. Izzy's relationship with gender performance is so interesting. How he pushes himself and others to upkeep this masculine image and despises Stede's and Luciu's (and later on Ed's) ability to be comfortable with their own version of masculinity.
P.s. Wonderful video, Jessie:))
I love this much quoted tweet about Izzy: "Izzy invented homophobia so he could internalize it."
I think that says it all!
I know we as a society have a LONG way to go, but it melts my heart to see Jim and the rest of the characters breaking down harmful stigmas. I hope for a world where everyone can see how awesome you are without any preconceptions.
Bullying creators into watching OMFD is the only acceptable form of bullying
Was so psyched for this vid and it was awesome.
What a beautiful analysis of Jim's journey- I was initially so confused when they didn't take up their "destiny"/revenge arc and went for overcoming trauma.
Thank you for talking about the incorrect beliefs about the historical ideas about gender roles/queer history.
Because it erases the reality that gender has always been a fluid journey. It is a whitewashing/cishet washing of history that is so ridiculous if you think about it for one minute.
Like DeBeauvoir claiming women were ALWAYS oppressed - it s just ignoring so many cultures and ideas of gender that have existed throughout history.
Much love and can't wait for season 2 either. I miss Lucious 😢
I mean, in most major patriarchal cultures, women *have* been seriously oppressed through most of human history, if not outright property, but that also doesn't change the fact that most cultures were far more fluid about gender than Christian Europe, as well. Both can be true at the same time.
This platform absolutely needed your video on this because not enough people are talking about Jim / nonbinary / trans masc representation.
I found it surprising and actually relieving when they kissed and it turned out not to be queerbaiting! Also - showing Steed's wife living her best Widow Life and the enby adventures of Jim - it was like taking my shoes off after a long day. Damn it representation feels so good. Always love your stuff, Jessie ♥
I was so incredibly relieved by how they managed the conversation between Stede and Mary. They avoided the common tropes-rejection, implication of lying, "that explains a lot"-and just gave us something really heartfelt. Mary is a queen and I love her.
@@kashiichan Its extremely refreshing in that scene that Mary is just happy for Stede in that moment. We see Mary so often in the show in flashbacks where she seems to disdain him/his behavior and yet when they talk about things for the most part when Stede comes back theres just such an openness between them (well especially after she didnt kill him) and supporting each other. I really enjoy how when this show has to include comments that show homophobia or racism that they dont lean into trauma violence or other stuff like so many period movies/shows do for "accuracy" or to make non-marginalized people sympathize w/a character (and usually make jokes at the commentors expense-like Olu and Frenchie swindling the aristocrats and it being a reference to pyramid schemes.)
I'm so glad this series exist! And that it just threw itself fearlessly into the mainstream spotlight. I do think it's a shame that so much of trans and nonbinary history is buried and kept out of the mainstream media; it's always been there, but there will always be 'those people' who try to downplay it. I'm a writer, and one day I'd love to find a way to include an homage to the French novelist and poet George Sand, a highly talented and sassy AFAB who, for most of her life, dressed as a man 'without a permit' (because yes, back in those days women *needed to apply for permits* if they wanted to publicly dress in men's clothes) and took both men and women as lovers.
I studied Anne Bonny and Mary Read’s history (via Wikipedia) years ago, and one thing I thought was a funny tid bit was how Mary only revealed her secret to Anne after Anne kept on pursuing her, thinking she was another handsome man on ship. Calico Jack, Anne’s lover, got extremely jealous, so Mary had to out herself to him in order to save her life. Thought it would make for a fun Yuri manga.
I think they didn’t do the blasting of “THERES GONNA BE QUEER CHARACTERS IN THIS SHOW” bc they figured we’d already be into a show about pirates
I wholeheartedly agree with the fact that we, people like we, have always existed, not with the same definitions, not with the same sense of being a we, but as people who did transgress gender norms and lived outside of the gender binary most often set by sex.
I think we need more visibility on that. When people take a historical figure that was queer and they assume they are cis - are they not projecting a whole set of preconceptions about gender as well on those figures? By always claiming we can't say people in the past were trans or non-binary, they don't really mean "it wasn't the same back then", what they mean is "you don't really exist". They draw a line between us as the product of a capitalist modern society and gender fluidity in the past, and while of course, what we are can only be the product of our current society - so are they. But it gets so unequal in who is subjected to discussion.
So I feel it's a good practice to allow ourselves to enlarge the meaning of transgender and/or non-binary to other time periods, and not just for how those phenomenon manifest today, because ways of living existed without a word to express them. And maybe there were various words, in various cultures, but they would not be kept by the dominant culture that got passed to us, because margins and transgressions are not something power is keen to register or use...
Another enby here to praise Jim. I am out, people know I am enby, I have provided my workplace with resources and even did a presentation on non-binary identities, and I still get misgendered every damn day. To see Jim’s aunt so effortlessly use they/them, to show their identity as so normalised and understood, made me cry.
If more media had this representation, I think it would be a lot easier for people to understand, to just get used to it without us having to do all the correcting and educating all the time
Another example of period-accurate gender nonconformity is Public Universal Friend! Look them up :)
I absolutely love Public Universal Friend. As a "theatre kid" and a big fan of various historical times, I've always wanted to do a historical first person interpretation (Townsends Living History style) of Public Universal Friend.
Thank you for the shout out to Finn! He has such an amazing presence. Subbed!
It was good to hear "Latine" used in context. I'm cis and white, so I really don't get a say, but none of the Hispanics I know use Latinx, including my wife. It doesn't fit neatly into the language. There is a good video by Bad Empanada explaining that while it is MOSTLY used by white Americans, it is used somewhat among native speakers. But Latine is a much more common gender neutral term among native speakers as it fits naturally as an addition to the existing language.
Thank you for pronouncing his Taika's name correctly! I love this show, it's so nice to see enby representation done so well in a big show like OFMD.
I bingewatched the show in two days now (FINALLY!)
and had to look if any of my subscribed people on youtube had talked about this show in general or Jim and THANK YOU for talking about JIM!
At first I wasn't sure about their identity, if they were supposed to be just a woman in disguise with a queer undertone or if there was more.
Episode four was kind of a rollercoaster for me, cause first they get asked if they have been a woman the entire time and being a "lady now". But at the same time I thought it was a beautiful question if they are still Jim, or going by the name of Jim and while there is a discussion if they could use the name without being a man, it still resonates with me that they got asked if they still go by that name!
The scene later where they have to kind of defend themself before the crew just goes okay, yeah you say you're, so you're Jim, had me again on my toes fearing for the worst.
I was still not sure about how Jim sees themself, since they didn't outright object to being a woman or a lady.
When I watched episode 7, I didn't immediately catch on that the crew were using they/them pronouns now but wow their Nana just accepting that they go by Jim these days was a power move, that was a bit undermined by the fact that she goes back to using their former name (I don't want to assume that they would say it's their deadname). But then I clearly noticed how their Nana said "We thought THEY were feral"
The other thing I noticed is, they both repeat the lines at the same time saying "Revenge for their bloodline", meaning that they had said this kind of line many times before, indicating that Jim used they/them pronouns before they left the church.
But then in season 2.... I can't really tell if anyone ever talked about Jim in 3rd person and used their pronouns... I wonder why... At least we got some Drag King (and Queens) outfit from them at the party. Other than that I it felt weird, that Jim was only addressed directly. As if they tried to skirt around their pronouns in second season, which didn't make sense to me and it saddened me that it felt like taking a step back here. Because yes, Jim is an important role for my enby transmasc (genderfluid) ass over here who sometimes really struggles with their masculinity.
I didn't need any explicit deeper dive into their gender, finding themself, ect but I wish they just would have continued to do the they/them just like episode 7...
14:00 I'll keep saying this until I die of old age, everyone should just wear eyeliner literally all the time, it's so good!
"What if what makes Ed happy...is Stede?"
SWOON
SWOON
SWOON
SWOON
SWOON
(Also, have you seen Reservation Dogs? I'm like a third of the way in and it's really good. Sad but also funny but also sad in line with Hunt for the Wilderpeople and JoJo Rabbit.)
What was said contrasting the don't say gay bill and our flag means death was so poetic, beautiful and tragic that it made me shed tears. It's tragic that something that should be easy and simple is a culture political war and real people are getting needlessly hurt, but it's inspiring to have our flag means death. Makes me hopeful
thank you for this particular focus regarding OFMD. i even fwded it with a
'Voice Memos for the Void' did a great video on this show that I think should be considered
Singular they/them is probably more historically accurate at the time, he/him as assumed was much later in the 18th century and even then it started in the aristocracy and would have taken a long time to filter down. He/Her and It (aside, originally He/Heo and Hit) did exist, but where more formal than singular they, so it'd likely pirates would refer to everyone as they/them... which obviously doesn't happen in the show, but also they were taught a bit by an aristocrat so I guess there's arguments to be made...
9:32 YESSS!!! My favorite queer pirate couple getting a mention and being the inspiration for a character on a pirate show!!! I have to watch that show!
Found you and this video on nebula, and I'm and instant subscriber. Thank you for making this enbys day and can't wait to dive into all your content, and Our Flag Means Death! ❤️
When Finn came on screen "hot" popped right out my mouth 😂
was really excited to see finn make his first appearance on your channel, hopefully it isn't the last.
I think it's confirmed as possible, that Jim is NB; once they were unmasked, one of the crew asked, 'So this whole time, you were a woman?' and Jim answered, "Yeah... I guess. I don't know."
I was a little puzzled by the assertion that they were trying to be "historically accurate"... I mean, used history as inspiration - absolutely (to an exceptional degree, like the attitudes towards women having crystals in them is very reminiscent of actual early modern thought) - but there's plenty here that doesn't really scream "accurate". And I don't mean sexualities at all, I mean like... the clothing... the way the laws work... actually I kinda love the fact that it is playing with history to tell a story we really need. And allowing people to see themselves in the past - just as Bridgerton did. Otherwise, thank you for this perspective on the show. I loved it to bits. And yes, amazing to have a show where LGBTQ+ can just actually exist! More please. More shows where the romance isn't just baited.
Also Jim was the big spoon
No they are the knife 😡
@@baronblackdragon9078 *they
Some of the first uses of They/Them as singular gender neutral pronoun date back to the 1600s. So the usage was historically available, though it's use for an explicitly non-binary person is a more modern usage. I enjoyed your analysis! I'm going to have to go watch the show now!😊
This video reminded me of a children's book series written in the 40s. Its called the famous five (by enid blyton) and one of the kids in it George resonated with me a lot as a kid and still does today. George was assigned femail at birth but refuses to acknowledge or talk to anyone who will call him Georgina or refer to him as a girl. As the books progress and the kids grow older its very obvious at least to me that he is a trans man because him wanting to be called George and using he him pronouns never changes.
The books probably wouldn't be considered as child friendly these days because there adventure books originally meant for yung kinds in which the protagonists often find themselves in live threatening situations.
But I thought you might be able to enjoy them regardless.
The author has other book series in which there are characters that prefer to use a male names (instead of Roberta Bobby or Bill instead of Wilhelmina).
Anyways I thought I'd share 😅
As always remember that you are valid, valuable, unique, irreplaceable and you matter more than you know! take care 🥰
It is quite interesting, because in some ways, I relate to how you imagine and desribe the historical experience of transness, simply not fitting into the boxes of societal expectations of the time the person lives in. But I am a cis woman, and have always felt comfortable with the identity of womanhood, even if I do things that are percieved as gender-nonconforming. For example, when I do DIY with dad, grandma comments how I'm replacing the son he never had.
I haven't seen the show yet, but gods am I excited to go watch it! I'm genderfluid/nonbinary as well and I'd love to see more representation of that. also, hoping I don't come off poorly, but you always look so gorgeous in all your outfits! I love your punny humor, too! Glad to have found your show
Okay, how did I never see Eames and Arthur?!
Also, great video! I've watched several other TH-camrs' videos on Our Flag Means Death, and it was great to get a deep dive into Jim 💕
"Nonbinary Pirates" would make a really good hippie jam band name.
Oh, don't know if it is translated into English, but "Martin SIlver-Eye" by Matilde Asensi is delightful. Very worthwhile.
P.S. The birth name of Martin Silver-Eye is Catalina Solís. 😜😜
Giant dorks? Oh, you're too kind, dear lady. 😁😁
lol my biggest take from my first viewing of Inception was that Arthur and Eames were TOTALLY in love
Truly an amazing show we need. But I have a question. Everyone complains when gay characters are played by straight actors, but everyone loves OFMD, where the main gay couple is played by straight actors?
I think it’s because it’s Taika and Rhys
Rhys and Taika has also given us another show called what we do in the shadows which has some queer themes and characters. They brought queer subjects back to the vampire genre. So they already have some history with us.
The reason people complain about straight actors playing gay characters is because gay actors are pigeonholed. With the rare notable exception, gay actors are cast for gay roles, so casting straight actors erodes their opportunities.
That's not the case here. OFMD has multiple queer actors and staff including a non-binary actor playing a non-binary character. It's not an issue because they're not eroding opportunities. This is, I would say, the ideal. The best people for the role are playing that role, sometimes that's a straight character playing a gay character, sometimes that's a non-binary actor playing a non-binary character. This kind of ideal isn't something we can have a lot of in hollywood because they're predisposed to only cast gay actors in gay roles, but still cast straight actors in gay roles.
And too I think it's important to note that this is also just an incredibly well written story. This is the kind of representation a lot of us want, where two people just fall in love with each other and it isn't really about them being gay. People would have taken a lot less umbrage with Eric McCormack in Will & Grace if he hadn't been such a walking stereotype. Representation matters and that includes in the writing as well as in the casting
What's in South Carolina, just the pirate retirement boat at Myrtle Beach lol
You are one of my favorite creaters, and I loved this show and your take.
After your coverage, I'm even more excited to watch this show
aaaa cool really looking forward to hearing the commentary around this! rad pirate outfit and colors! 🍀🍀🍀
Finally, someone who won't call Mark Read "Mary."
EDIT: Never Mind.
I don't even have HBO right now but this is such a fun and interesting video. I love all the pirate lore.
And now I *have* to watch this show. I don’t have HBO Max though.
They/Them for unspecified referents is older than singular you/ye (oh, and it being you/you instead of you/ye for the second person is an early modern development). There wasn't wide acceptance of non-binary identities so there wasn't documented use of it for specific people, but it would have been almost as natural to call Jim they/them as it is today.
Hey Jessie,
So I'm not gonna say that I payed for Pretzel Rock Twice, instead of getting HBO max, I'm not going to say that. What I am going to say is I am jealous of the ppl who did not do that thing.
plz keep the work coming,
2, luv & pride
personally, as a finnish nonbinary person, I would like to remind everyone that Taika means magic in finnish
obsessed with this show and with ur channel right now jessie. been binging ur vids the last few days. very good stuff
I'm not terribly familiar with pirate gender roles aside from the bare basics (that some women were very high ranking pirates, often the captains and most notable ones, and the old joke about sailors not being gay after a few weeks at sea) but I do know pirates did often take in slaves to their crew as relative equals (not many places for the ex-slave to go, so the crew got another very loyal member, meanwhile the ex-slave was usually treated relatively well as an equal), so I have to wonder if some pirates were transgender men. Admittedly, transgender either way is a bit anachronistic but I wonder how much of a disservice analyzing them through that lens would do. Just food for thought.
Welp, seems like _The Expanse_ and finishing rewatching _Poltergeist: The Legacy_ will have to wait again...
What seems to have really changed is medical care. No nonbianary people have the ability to seek modifications to their bodies that more accurately reflect their personhood. LGBTQ+ people have always been here.
1. The events from the show take place in the 18th century,not 17th
2. J in Jimenez isn't pronounced the same way as J in Jim. C'mon, i don't know how its possible to mix that up
Hey! Stephen colbert is from South Carolina! He's p cool I think. That's the only piece of South Carolina trivia I know.
Roach is the ship's cook.
Most pirates were gay or bisexual so that probably makes this one of the more realistic pirate shows ever made.
HEY..... I live in South Carolina.... (Er, I should say that as a trans man I REALLY enjoyed Jim's portrayal in the show. I just loved the show overall, and this was a great video, other than the South Carolina crack, LOL)
First of all, I love your blue blouse. It fabulous! Second, have you seen the movie Stage Beauty with Clair Daines?
Taika in this? OK I might peep.
where can i find the artist of the fanart briefly shown at 27:55 ?
I am glad this added to the body of LGBTQA+ representation in entertainment. That it was well done is a bonus.
Pirates were so far ahead of their times: Democracy, Ethnic equality, maybe not 100% gender equality, but ahead of us today.
I wouldn't quite say ahead seeing how they were still criminals who robbed people, and it was the working class who suffered the most from robbery, and murder wasn't exactly uncommon.
@@LadyTylerBioRodriguez In a time when press gangs were forcing British citizens into naval service, often waking up a day later at sea, press gangs, look it up.. When enslaved people were on a captured ship, they were given a choice of leaving the ship as free people or joining the crew. 250 years before a woman in the US could get a credit card or open a bank account without daddy's approval, Anne Bonnie was a full share crew member, no one said pirates were angels, just that in some areas they were ahead of the US Founding Fathers, and ahead of the US Civil rights movement.
@@darknagaadventures7884 Okay that first is not true. Pirates profited from the slave trade heavily. Blackbeards ship, Queen Annes Revenge, was a French slave ship and he sold the majority of the crew and kept the rest and didn't give them a choice. This was not usual for pirates, Bartholomew Roberts famously set a slave ship on fire for example. It also needs to be said how unique Anne Bonny and Mary Reads situation was, in the entire Golden Age of Piracy, which the year vary but I usually only go with 1650 through 1730, only four women were even tried for piracy, Anne and Mary, an escaped prisoner named Mary Critchett in 1729, and Martha Farley who was the wife of a pirate. That's it. And the context of why Anne and Mary joined John Rackam when he stole the sloop William is very unclear. So no, I'm not going to say the piracy or the pirate refuge of Nassau was in anywhere ahead of its time. Not saying the United States is perfect because lord knows it never was nor will be. But the romantic notion of pirates behind more progressive is just a romantic notion, ironically this is an idea you can find in the early 1700s, mostly by playwrights with little understanding of the subject.
20:30: as bad as the term is now, at one time, a certain degree of transvestitism was considered "queer" up until the early to mid 20th century. With women, that's partially faded, but only because fashion trends historically have started amongst men.
Yes, almost everything short of a skintight dress or something else that isn't meant to shape a bust or fit a waist in fashion originated because some guy started doing it and then it fell out of fashion for men because women started wearing it. The reason women wear shoes that cripple them is because of 90% male mongolian riders who spread a fashion westwards.
Meanwhile, there's language change, which is almost entirely driven by women.
Men controlled the fashion economy in the Western world. And recorded the history.
This is a pretty broad generation. Odd that men haven’t moved on from wearing pants…
Jessie, I appreciate your outfit. That is all. Engagement for the engagement gods. Also I now want to see you in this fit with queerbuccaneer interviewing JSS about wrestling.
I'm from South Carolina. I agree, who would go to South Carolina
First reaction to Jim made my Shakespeare sense start tingling. Shakespeare did what we call his 'pants' plays, and it brought Viola in Twelfth Night to mind, who survived in an enemy country by posing as a young man. If you don't know the show, check it out...you'll get it.
DAVID JENKINS: I know writers who use subtext and they're all cowards.
I didn't expect a monologue from a gorgeous guy in the middle of my Jessie video. I'm barely bi but damn. Bonus
singular they/them pronouns did exist back then, so it's not surprising that the pirates can use them!
thank you so much for everything you said about transmasc nonbinary representation, it means the world 🤍
yessss this show is literally one of the best lgbtq show recently. i really love it. ♥
The mention of Loki reminds this moose that the Judeo-Christian God is described using both masculine and feminine imagery, frequently referred to as a father, yes, but also as a mother hen (it is Jesus who says this of himself, but we must remember that much of Christianity accepts the idea of the Trinity, so to them this is the same as saying it of God, then, and even if it were not, it is still worth noting since much of present day American Evangelicalism has a strange fascination with masculinity, and yet here is Jesus using the image of a mother hen.)
In the Old Testament, a comparison is made between God and a mother comforting her child (Isiah 66:13). This one is made more interesting by the fact that it declares that “these are the words of the Lord,” telling us that it is allegedly God Himself comparing Himself to a mother.
Just a little fun fact for everyone. It would be worth saying that this moose is no scholar and does not know how much there is to read into that. However, given the strong emphasis on the masculine found throughout American Evangelical churches, it is worth bringing up and pointing out that, no, God is not depicted as entirely masculine, but also feminine. It is less frequent, perhaps, but it is still there. As such, it might benefit American Evangelical churches to reassess their characterization of God and Jesus as solely masculine and from there hopefully reassess their fascination with the masculine. And then, who knows? Maybe eventually be more accepting of trans and non-binary and all other LGBTQ folks.
That is probably being overly optimistic, but we can dream.
Ah to be a non-binary/agender priate.
Or a knight
Or a prince
I just want to live the agender afab dream of wearing goergeous clothes and committing crimes. Is that too much to ask?
🎵 Yo ho yo ho it's an alternative lifestyle for me! 🎵
"Intense historical accuracy" lmao Oluwande wears crocs and Blackbeard wears a biker jacket
Blackbeard's outfit was literally a Mad Max cosplay lmao.
Lol I laughed at that part too
Fang wears a Hot Topic belt on his head.
Yeah, I noticed that! The show interweaves historical ideas, but it’s all creative anachronism. Great show!
The scene where Jim tells their grandma their new name and she just smiles at them and says "well, come in Jim. We have cake." always makes me tear up
As a nonbinary person, Jim meant a lot to me. I barely get to see myself on screen so it was nice to have them
Same! It's so good to see nonbinary people being taken seriously as real characters with stories to be told rather than just "exotic" decorations, or people reduced to their gender identity. Also, Jim kicks ass.
I'm just a cishet white male and I've always considered myself not super masculine even though I do look it, giving me a lot of privileges and advantages I wish everyone had, but something puzzles me.
I have a lot of character traits that are traditionally considered feminine even though I never agreed with that. Things like wanting to care for people, being super empathic when people are in need of understanding and acknowledgement, and wanting to pamper nice people with good food and nice drinks, good atmosphere and things like that - I'm super sensitive. So are my two brothers, so it was always considered normal and my mom enjoyed teaching us how to cook and clean and buying me a doll for my birthday that I wanted so I could dress it in cute outfits my mom made, and care for it.
And yet, I see Jim with a beard and big nose, my brain goes, man. Then I learn they're non binary and i'm like, okay, they're non binary.
Then after learning that the nose and beard are gone and I'm like, _she's_ an attractive _woman._ How is my brain this dumb? Seriously. There was less than ten seconds between that! Sometimes I really think my IQ randomly switches from positive to negative.
Ah well... some day I'll learn, I hope. I assume that if I knew the actor personally I wouldn't screw up this easily because then it's just one person with a job instead of an actor playing a character and being interviewed as a person. Maybe my brain just figured it was a completely different role because of the lack of nose and beard, who knows. Also, I haven't seen the show yet and this is the first time I heard about the actor and I already forgot their name even though I remember I thought it was a pretty name, simply because I know nothing about them except their job. Brains, eh.
I was so relieved it wasn’t queerbaiting.
my brain is so used to queerbaiting that halfway through the show, i was like "okay, let's finish the first season and then head to AO3 for some resolution on that relationship". when they kissed i was genuinely shocked. although to be honest i started to have my suspicions while watching lucius' reaction to the treasure hunt campfire conversation lol
@@kinesin8221 yeah, I did a double take at his reaction. Came into the show pretty cold so I really wasn't expecting much, not sure if that was scripted or improv but it was certainly relatable
I was the gay autistic pirate kid in school. I'm non-binary and having this show made me feel so seen in so many ways. Thank you for covering this, Jessie!! Amazing as always :)
oh
I really liked the note that the definitions of what "trans" is would have changed throughout history. If our society was 100% accepting of fluid gender expression, we likely wouldn't care to divide people by "trans" or "cis" identifiers because they'd be unnecessary, like we likely wouldn't care to define "man", "woman", or "nonbinary" in a society without assigned gender.
Also, one thing I think this video might miss out on is that while there are moments of pride in historical accuracy in the show, there's just as many moments where they wholeheartedly embrace the anachronisms. Ed and Mary's clothing, the way they speak, who and why certain people are around and together, etc. This show wants to tell a story of an idea of Stede Bonnet and Blackbeard, not what the story of the time was.
@@kaiyodei i guess we wouldn't need to define that either. You'd just check case by case if you're attracted to them.
That seem to be what Jessie was referring to when she quoted that stuff about what Native Americans used to think, when their gender categories were not as binary as those of the incoming colonisers.
I think you might like Imperial Radch Trilogy by Anne Leckie. Really cool discussion of social gender and labels.
I think it’s kind of sweet that Jenkins was so oblivious to queer coding that he genuinely didn’t consider it a big deal at all and was so surprised. It was so casually, wonderfully queer and it didn’t make it a big thing, and I love that about it so much. Such a beautiful show. When they actually kissed, I was watching it on opening night at like 3 AM and my soul nearly left my body
David Jenkins absolutely was not "oblivious to queercoding". This is a misunderstanding of his comments about how he underestimated the impact queerbaiting could have.
Oops that was actually a typo, I meant queerbaiting not queer coding, and yep I was referring more to the negative effects of it
i cannot believe it, people make such a fuzz about they/them pronouns. and yet i didn't notice that they used they/them on Jim through the show. they feel like normal pronouns in the show because they are.
I have a friend who's currently in finals for getting a BA in English including a very in depth study of grammar. According to them (and the rather extensive list of references in their paper) on the topic, the use of "they" is "ubiquitous to fill the place of a gender-neutral, sex-indefinite third person singular pronoun" as far back as the 14th century. They can't remember exactly when the generic masculine (using he in the aforementioned circumstance), but they think it was somewhere in the same time frame as many other attempts to impose an ordered grammar on English in the latter half of the 18th century.
So by that logic, it seems reasonable that a pirate would use they to refer to a person whose gender is not known or presumed, which could reasonably be extended to Jim.
Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
Singular they
Predates singular you.
I remember watching OFMD as the series aired, and I was really close to dropping it to be honest. I’m nonbinary, and when I saw Jim, I thought that they were going to be the same “woman dressing as a man to enter a male space but it says nothing about her gender identity and she gets a boyfriend because she’s definitely cishet”. Like, obviously clothes don’t equal gender, but after seeing the same story over and over again, I thought that Jim was just going to hurt me when I was already feeling invisible from being in the closet for so long. But then I continued watching and it slowly dawned on me that even though the words “trans” or “nonbinary” weren’t being used, they were very clearly being written with the trans experience in mind. But I still expected the show to disappoint me. I looked up their actor expecting to find a cis actor playing a nonbinary character but nope! Vico Ortiz is nonbinary.
Once I was finally able to let my guard down and stop expecting Jim to disappoint me, they became incredibly comforting to me. I’m still in the closet, and the stress surrounding that can be more or less intense depending on the situation, and March just so happened to be one of those bad months, so Jim was really important to me.
I hope we get more representation like Jim in the future, but they’re always going to hold a special place in my heart
yeah, as a binary trans guy I was fully expecting that to be the trope as soon as it was revealed Jim isn't a cis man, so even though I loved the show even from those first episodes, the idea that they were just gonna backtrack and make them a "woman in disguise" broke my heart just a little bit, especially the in between them being outed and then accepted for who they are. although I was hoping for some trans man specific representation (non-binary and transmasc representation I would say are on a somewhat even playing field of being left out of media, especially more specific media I'm interested in, like comedy) I was still really happy with non-binary rep and I'm really glad their character turned out the way it did. even though beyond gender identity into the realm of personality I don't extremely relate to Jim, I think it's been nice to see a character like them without trying to seem them through the lens of relating to them, as I tend to do with generally binary men characters I feel close in behaviour and thought to. I'm now realizing this response is really unnecessary and too long as my responses always are, but I'll put it out there. also I'm really sorry that March was hard for you, I hope things are getting better and will continue getting better in the grand scheme of things, in the meantime we'll have OFMD to be there for us when we need it. good luck to you out there :)
oh
As a Puerto Rican. It’s great to see Vico Ortiz (who is Puerto Rican) be in a show that is getting great reactions. It’s just very rare to see Puerto Ricans in mainstream media let allow in an LBGTQ show. I’m so proud of them! 🇵🇷