I found Angela Collier's video essay "the sham legacy of Richard Feynman" particularly illuminating from the perspective of a former Feynman bro physics undergrad (I switched disciplines after graduating). Glad others are recognizing the problem with the blind Feynman worship.
I followed you here from tiktok. I'm not particularly bright, but I enjoy learning "physics light" from vertasium and the guy that calls his followers "crazyies". But I've read most of Feynman's books and found him to be a curious character. They were very entertaining and I recommend them. Of course I'm speaking of his autobiographical books, not physics per se. Someone once said people are like paintings and should be viewed in their best light.
You should definitely have more subs, interesting discussion. I've been following you for a while on tiktok, please keep doing youtube now when tiktok is apparently getting banned in the US!
Thanks for this! If we religious believers, social scientists, amateur philosophers etc use the word "scientism" it just sounds like sour grapes.. But I have to admit, I personally don't care at all, yes, really not _at all_ , if the next fundamental particle is _ever_ discovered.. I admire people who have high IQs and do difficult intellectual work, but I'd really like to see a lot more smart people working on ethics.. like exactly why is sexual predation wrong? What should we do with people who behave this way? Do Feynman bros think progress is impossible in ethics? Then how'd we make the progress we obviously have made? Nothing against physical science per se.. but scientists are not the only intelligent people.
IMO it’s important to be careful with unverified claims like this. Feynman’s personality is complex, and meaningful critique should focus on evidence or context. Have you come across anything more concrete about his behavior?
@@blackbirdphys Both were eccentric personalities of different types, so that very well could be the reason. From what I understand, many people got along with Feynman, but he was undoubtedly eccentric and could be overbearing at times, especially when it came to physics. He was more of a lone wolf in physics, as his personality and way of learning suited that approach more than collaborations.
Nobody is worthy of being idolized. That's always been my view. But, again, I never felt the need to idolize anyone either... so, I really don't understand the point. 🤣
About the time that Feynman was awarded the Nobel Prize. Feynman describes the following about those events: on being informed that the Nobel Prize committee would soon announce the recipients of that years Nobel Prizes (with the Physics award going to Feynman), Feynman realized that it would change his life in a way that was acutely disagreeable to him. For instance, Feynman saw coming that people would start quoting him with, saying 'Nobel Prize winner Richard Feynman said yada yada yada'. Feynman expected that the status of being a Nobel Prize laureate would likely cause people to have a distorted image of him. Feynman recounts that he consulted friends on whether there was a possibility of declining the Nobel Prize. His friends pointed out that declining the Nobel Prize was even worse; he would from then on be seen in the public eye as the 'crazy physicist who turned down the Nobel Prize'. In his Nobel Prize acceptance speech Feynman emphasized that for him the reward of doing physics was in the satisfaction of learning, and deepening understanding. This was an indirect dig against the Nobel Prize committee. Indirectly Feynman was saying: "Guys, you're not doing me any favors here."
Dirac went through this exact same situation: "Feynman recounts that he consulted friends on whether there was a possibility of declining the Nobel Prize. His friends pointed out that declining the Nobel Prize was even worse; he would from then on be seen in the public eye as the 'crazy physicist who turned down the Nobel Prize'"
You are definitely right saying that people should not idolize Feynman or any other living or dead human in the history of humankind, for that matter. That's not debatable at all, it's basically a non-statement. However, implying something like "not cool idolizing Feynman anymore, because now I found out he was nasty with women" is, at best, some sort of self righteous pandering, mostly a result of the times we live in (because there are other explanations too, and they are definitely not as mild). I don't care how he lived his life, that he played the banjo or that he might've been arrogant or even nasty. But if you think it's fine to scrutinize an individual way more than you'd like to be scrutinized yourself for the sake of "let's see if he's really that brilliant in ALL aspects of his life", Alan Turing (and countless others) might want a word with you. He too was brilliant, but the times he lived in were not in sync with his life choices. Tough luck, right? Because "morals". Yes, the morals from an age long past, but this one will pass too and maybe 100 years from now people will look with disgust not at those who made supposedly "questionable" life choices in a different age, but at those who used their "superior morals" to deride and diminish them. What then? Oh and the brushing teeth analogy was in the sense that, despite the fact that you do it every day ("religiously"), you don't see the results after one morning brush. You do it day after day and the daily result is, in essence, another null result in an endless series of daily null results. Just like religious rituals. That's the meaning of "you've forgotten why you do it". And just so it's clear, I'm at least twice your age, so definitely not an overly impressionable 17 years old, but I'm still not over my Feynman phase, 20 years later. To the contrary, I'm even deeper in that phase, because now I can admire his mind without the weight of being afraid to disagree with what he said in whatever interviews.
If you’re so old why do you let your emotions control you? Pay attention to what was said, he didn’t diminish Feynman’s accomplishments. We shouldn’t do that. But Feynman can also be used to point out to young physicists “you shouldn’t treat people so disrespectfully liek this guy did, and maybe seeing that he did stuff like this reminds us not to idolize him because he is not some perfect being ”. That sentiment doesn’t have anything to do with his work, and it also has nothing to do with this non-sequitur philosophy of morality you tried to articulate. “Oh, you think it’s okay to say that being a sexist is bad? Well they used to say being gay was bad, checkmate”. They also used to say eating shit was bad, want me to make you a sandwich? It makes sense to not want the government to have the right to hurt people, which I think is the lesson of the Alan Turing example, not that we should avoid pointing out when someone is being a bastard.
@@Cosmalano Check your emotions radar, because it's way off, I have no idea where you saw any in my post. Or maybe that's your go to line to stir up emotions? It's a classic indeed. Where did I say he diminished Feynman's accomplishments? I didn't even imply it, so maybe you should pay some more attention yourself. What I said, essentially, is that the value of this sort of "investigative" digging falls somewhere between virtue signaling and clickbait, probably the most active areas of interest online currently, besides selfies and porn. If I were to scrutinize any single human on this planet I will find things that I or others will consider despicable. "Schrodinger was a pedo, Heisenberg was a Nazi, Feynman was misogynous. Kids, don't be pedos, Nazis or misogynous. And with this moral enema concluded, let's move onto the subject of today's lesson". Personally I find it disgusting, like someone showing me his worn underwear when inviting me to dinner - "just so it's clear I'm not a filthy pig, ok?" If your way of teaching morals involves pointing to others and saying "aha, there it is!", you have some learning to do about morals. And now I'm out, my emotions got the best of me so I'll go scream in my pillow.
Hi! As an overly impressionable 18 year old, I totally agree with your viewpoint on how separating the physics from the "moral complications" can be appealing However, i think we should at least be aware of how kids, especially ones that are starting to get interested in physics could fail to do so as well. "Doing physics is all about being the smartest person in the room" and " maybe misogyny is correlated with hiw smart he is" can become common sentiments real fast. Hence, keeping the admiration for RF in strictly physics is more difficult because of him being famous for being "cool" It might be very easy for you to distinguish between hype and actual knowledge as you have amassed a lot of life experiences and are very hard to fool but getting introduced to physics through that type of rhetoric may be harmful. Also the impact of this is not "subjective" either. It has made studying physics for women objectively harder. Feynman was a complicated case and we should treat him as such. but we should also actively try to minimize damage to physics education and physics in general. Feynman was also really fond of the women in his life so i think it might be slightly exaggerated but it's a valuable viewpoint nonetheless
since you have never personally actually interacted with or know about him it is unfair to judge the character so eagerly. I just watched Angela Collier's video about Feynman and it looks like the character Feynman everyone knows about is not really an accurate representation of the person but rather an absurd exaggeration of him.
I found Angela Collier's video essay "the sham legacy of Richard Feynman" particularly illuminating from the perspective of a former Feynman bro physics undergrad (I switched disciplines after graduating). Glad others are recognizing the problem with the blind Feynman worship.
Her video pretty much nailed it on the culture surrounding feynman
I literally just watched that video
I followed you here from tiktok. I'm not particularly bright, but I enjoy learning "physics light" from vertasium and the guy that calls his followers "crazyies". But I've read most of Feynman's books and found him to be a curious character. They were very entertaining and I recommend them. Of course I'm speaking of his autobiographical books, not physics per se. Someone once said people are like paintings and should be viewed in their best light.
ohh no, youtuber discovers Feynman was human, OMFG!!!!
try to invent a diagram or something like Feynman did and then let someone else to have a you phase, ok?
No way this popped in my face right after i finished unzicker’s real physics video on feynman🐸😭😂
Unzicker is a crackpot
You should definitely have more subs, interesting discussion. I've been following you for a while on tiktok, please keep doing youtube now when tiktok is apparently getting banned in the US!
I appreciate that!
I disliked his quote about something like if mathematics disappeared then physics wouldn't only be set back by a week
Comment for the algoooo
Thanks for this! If we religious believers, social scientists, amateur philosophers etc use the word "scientism" it just sounds like sour grapes.. But I have to admit, I personally don't care at all, yes, really not _at all_ , if the next fundamental particle is _ever_ discovered.. I admire people who have high IQs and do difficult intellectual work, but I'd really like to see a lot more smart people working on ethics.. like exactly why is sexual predation wrong? What should we do with people who behave this way? Do Feynman bros think progress is impossible in ethics? Then how'd we make the progress we obviously have made? Nothing against physical science per se.. but scientists are not the only intelligent people.
I’m not sure if this is true, but I also heard he was quite arrogant. Not a fan of that behavior.
I think Gell-Man had a bone to pick with him about this, though I'm curious about the other side of the story
Usually these traits will be correlated though
IMO it’s important to be careful with unverified claims like this. Feynman’s personality is complex, and meaningful critique should focus on evidence or context. Have you come across anything more concrete about his behavior?
@@blackbirdphys Both were eccentric personalities of different types, so that very well could be the reason. From what I understand, many people got along with Feynman, but he was undoubtedly eccentric and could be overbearing at times, especially when it came to physics. He was more of a lone wolf in physics, as his personality and way of learning suited that approach more than collaborations.
What about people saying that Dyson ought to be awarded the Nobel prize?
What does that have to do with this video
@because they say Dyson not Feynman deserved the Nobel?
Nobody is worthy of being idolized. That's always been my view. But, again, I never felt the need to idolize anyone either... so, I really don't understand the point. 🤣
That's my view now as well. 17 year old me wasn't the wisest person haha
About the time that Feynman was awarded the Nobel Prize.
Feynman describes the following about those events: on being informed that the Nobel Prize committee would soon announce the recipients of that years Nobel Prizes (with the Physics award going to Feynman), Feynman realized that it would change his life in a way that was acutely disagreeable to him. For instance, Feynman saw coming that people would start quoting him with, saying 'Nobel Prize winner Richard Feynman said yada yada yada'. Feynman expected that the status of being a Nobel Prize laureate would likely cause people to have a distorted image of him.
Feynman recounts that he consulted friends on whether there was a possibility of declining the Nobel Prize. His friends pointed out that declining the Nobel Prize was even worse; he would from then on be seen in the public eye as the 'crazy physicist who turned down the Nobel Prize'.
In his Nobel Prize acceptance speech Feynman emphasized that for him the reward of doing physics was in the satisfaction of learning, and deepening understanding. This was an indirect dig against the Nobel Prize committee. Indirectly Feynman was saying: "Guys, you're not doing me any favors here."
Dirac went through this exact same situation:
"Feynman recounts that he consulted friends on whether there was a possibility of declining the Nobel Prize. His friends pointed out that declining the Nobel Prize was even worse; he would from then on be seen in the public eye as the 'crazy physicist who turned down the Nobel Prize'"
You are definitely right saying that people should not idolize Feynman or any other living or dead human in the history of humankind, for that matter. That's not debatable at all, it's basically a non-statement.
However, implying something like "not cool idolizing Feynman anymore, because now I found out he was nasty with women" is, at best, some sort of self righteous pandering, mostly a result of the times we live in (because there are other explanations too, and they are definitely not as mild).
I don't care how he lived his life, that he played the banjo or that he might've been arrogant or even nasty. But if you think it's fine to scrutinize an individual way more than you'd like to be scrutinized yourself for the sake of "let's see if he's really that brilliant in ALL aspects of his life", Alan Turing (and countless others) might want a word with you. He too was brilliant, but the times he lived in were not in sync with his life choices. Tough luck, right? Because "morals". Yes, the morals from an age long past, but this one will pass too and maybe 100 years from now people will look with disgust not at those who made supposedly "questionable" life choices in a different age, but at those who used their "superior morals" to deride and diminish them. What then?
Oh and the brushing teeth analogy was in the sense that, despite the fact that you do it every day ("religiously"), you don't see the results after one morning brush. You do it day after day and the daily result is, in essence, another null result in an endless series of daily null results. Just like religious rituals. That's the meaning of "you've forgotten why you do it".
And just so it's clear, I'm at least twice your age, so definitely not an overly impressionable 17 years old, but I'm still not over my Feynman phase, 20 years later. To the contrary, I'm even deeper in that phase, because now I can admire his mind without the weight of being afraid to disagree with what he said in whatever interviews.
If you’re so old why do you let your emotions control you? Pay attention to what was said, he didn’t diminish Feynman’s accomplishments. We shouldn’t do that. But Feynman can also be used to point out to young physicists “you shouldn’t treat people so disrespectfully liek this guy did, and maybe seeing that he did stuff like this reminds us not to idolize him because he is not some perfect being ”. That sentiment doesn’t have anything to do with his work, and it also has nothing to do with this non-sequitur philosophy of morality you tried to articulate. “Oh, you think it’s okay to say that being a sexist is bad? Well they used to say being gay was bad, checkmate”. They also used to say eating shit was bad, want me to make you a sandwich? It makes sense to not want the government to have the right to hurt people, which I think is the lesson of the Alan Turing example, not that we should avoid pointing out when someone is being a bastard.
@@Cosmalano Check your emotions radar, because it's way off, I have no idea where you saw any in my post. Or maybe that's your go to line to stir up emotions? It's a classic indeed.
Where did I say he diminished Feynman's accomplishments? I didn't even imply it, so maybe you should pay some more attention yourself. What I said, essentially, is that the value of this sort of "investigative" digging falls somewhere between virtue signaling and clickbait, probably the most active areas of interest online currently, besides selfies and porn.
If I were to scrutinize any single human on this planet I will find things that I or others will consider despicable. "Schrodinger was a pedo, Heisenberg was a Nazi, Feynman was misogynous. Kids, don't be pedos, Nazis or misogynous. And with this moral enema concluded, let's move onto the subject of today's lesson". Personally I find it disgusting, like someone showing me his worn underwear when inviting me to dinner - "just so it's clear I'm not a filthy pig, ok?" If your way of teaching morals involves pointing to others and saying "aha, there it is!", you have some learning to do about morals. And now I'm out, my emotions got the best of me so I'll go scream in my pillow.
Hi! As an overly impressionable 18 year old, I totally agree with your viewpoint on how separating the physics from the "moral complications" can be appealing
However, i think we should at least be aware of how kids, especially ones that are starting to get interested in physics could fail to do so as well. "Doing physics is all about being the smartest person in the room" and " maybe misogyny is correlated with hiw smart he is" can become common sentiments real fast. Hence, keeping the admiration for RF in strictly physics is more difficult because of him being famous for being "cool"
It might be very easy for you to distinguish between hype and actual knowledge as you have amassed a lot of life experiences and are very hard to fool but getting introduced to physics through that type of rhetoric may be harmful.
Also the impact of this is not "subjective" either. It has made studying physics for women objectively harder.
Feynman was a complicated case and we should treat him as such. but we should also actively try to minimize damage to physics education and physics in general. Feynman was also really fond of the women in his life so i think it might be slightly exaggerated but it's a valuable viewpoint nonetheless
We all did..sadly
I wanted to drop out of my physics degree because of Feynman bros 🤣I respect his scientific work, but him as a person 🤮
since you have never personally actually interacted with or know about him it is unfair to judge the character so eagerly. I just watched Angela Collier's video about Feynman and it looks like the character Feynman everyone knows about is not really an accurate representation of the person but rather an absurd exaggeration of him.
@@sk8erbyern
Yeah, it’s a common theme on the internet.
People either prop someone up way too much, or they vilify them.
lol it's so in vogue to be a hater for clout these days
I'll have you know I've been a hater for a while
What a useless video.
Agreed. What is the point of this video? All that had to be said was "Don't be a womanizer."
Dont care.