My initial look at the fish when you posted on Facebook led me to believe they weren’t the same after spotting some damage differences on some fins. After seeing how many matches in scale pattern etc you found on the fish I believe it is indeed the same fish. Good eye for detail, sir.
@ definitely! It’s also an impetus for us to take a closer look and inform ourselves of just what the criteria for judging fish are in situations like this. The things I though would be are in fact not what judges (or AI?) use to differentiate.
Never look at fins for identity! That is common sense-they are too changeable. I doubt micro scale patterns are identical across fish, even within the same spawn.
This was a fascinating show. Both of you are outstanding but Ryan is a boss! I really love how this dude stands on principle. Everything he said was logical.
We spend a ton of money to travel to these events for there to be things like this. Time off work, entry fees, gas, mileage, food, lodging, gear etc. This is all money taken from our family or other obligations in an economy that is already squeezing most Americans. Organizations will get things wrong at times, but as long as it's admitted and made right quickly people won't lose confidence in the organization. These types of things keep a ton of people from even entering and the sport shrinks.
I don't think NOT shutting down the leaderboard is necessary, BUT the formal appeals process should not start until the leaderboard is opened, and all anglers should get a push notification that the leaderboard is back up. So everyone knows, the leaderboard goes back online an hour after the event, then for 24 hours, anglers can pour over and review the results and photos and issue any formal challenges. But that timeline and process needs to be formalized. That goes to the "inconvenient" timing issue, and erases that. You can't have a TD say "you have 24 hours from the end of the event", and then not open up the leaderboard till the next morning leaving no time for people to look at it.
As a long time, full time police officer in a larger city i would highly advise to not waste time and money on using a polygraph. It costs a lot of money and is very subjective. It isn't even admissible in court. There are far too many variables between the polygraphers and the person being interviewed.
Even twins have different fingerprints- and fingerprint analysis has a certain number of points of identity to match people/exclude people. This fish has more points of identity than fingerprint analysis requires.
In live chat i said it wasnt same but i only seen oic for like 2 seconds before it cut but after looking at it its 100 percent same fish thats horrible bro sry it went down like that must have been for a unseen reason.
I don't like the way KBN handled this in their podcast. I appreciate the complete story from Ryan and the space for it by Wendell. Ryan dq'd his own fish for being a duplicate. Would be nice for KBN to bring that up. Very unfortunate that Hobie took that stance and hasn't been transparent with the appeal process. This is one reason I have not started fishing tournaments. I would never do a monthly. Way too easy for people to cheat. My mind doesn't work that way, so i am always shocked when I hear about it. Ryan seems to be doing this for the right reason.
End result was nothing changed with the outcome? Ryan’s appeal caused the BOS trail to end lol My point behind saying this is by “No comment” from Hobie opens up all kinds of conjectures and ultimately a loss of confidence in the judging process and the appeal process. Huge mistake by HobieCat.
Hobie doesn't want it to come to light. They have been dealing with quality issues for years. Everyone I know that has purchased a PA 360 is now on their 2nd sometimes 3rd hull. Hobie is in the middle of releasing their new flag ship kayak. My guess is they don't want to have bad publicity at the peak sales time. Sorry this happened Ryan.
I will need proof and examples of two separate fish having the same scale chromophore patterns (and the same length) to believe what these biologists are saying. I need for them to prove their thesis. BTW- I have three degrees in biology myself (Research 1 Universities-not Community Colleges).
I tried to get an explanation but they declined... but I do know this... the odds of two identical fish with matching scale patterns surviving from the same hatch-where only 1 in 1,000 fry typically reach adulthood-are astronomical. On top of that, some of distinguishing marks clearly were the result of damage caused by a predator. For these fish to have been attacked by the same predator in the exact same way, survived, have the same scars, grown to 19 inches, and been caught on the same day by the same angler defies all logic.
@@wendellfishing I agree. Hobie tried the old "appeal to (an anonymous) authority" fallacy. I do not accept those types of arguments and I do not disregard my own common sense and experience. How many times have politicians used the "16 experts all agree....." argument? Sorry- it has been proven to be a ridiculous tactic too many times.
I understand Ryan argument and believe he's an honor man. However, he is questioning the other fisherman, and that is a problem for me .. I think the judgment should stand..
Oh, I don’t believe Hobie plans to make any changes, and Ryan clarified that wasn’t his purpose for coming on. However, the entire appeal process inherently suggests you believe another angler made an error.
@@tonyb-50 Depends on how you like to fish I guess, These guys are fishing for money so it makes sense. For most.. likely doesn't.. but I get your point.
My initial look at the fish when you posted on Facebook led me to believe they weren’t the same after spotting some damage differences on some fins. After seeing how many matches in scale pattern etc you found on the fish I believe it is indeed the same fish. Good eye for detail, sir.
Thanks boss! Hope it was helpful and educational at least!
@ definitely! It’s also an impetus for us to take a closer look and inform ourselves of just what the criteria for judging fish are in situations like this. The things I though would be are in fact not what judges (or AI?) use to differentiate.
@@BucktailFishing Knowledge is power brother!
Never look at fins for identity! That is common sense-they are too changeable. I doubt micro scale patterns are identical across fish, even within the same spawn.
This was a fascinating show. Both of you are outstanding but Ryan is a boss! I really love how this dude stands on principle. Everything he said was logical.
Thanks, appreciate you watching!
We spend a ton of money to travel to these events for there to be things like this. Time off work, entry fees, gas, mileage, food, lodging, gear etc. This is all money taken from our family or other obligations in an economy that is already squeezing most Americans. Organizations will get things wrong at times, but as long as it's admitted and made right quickly people won't lose confidence in the organization. These types of things keep a ton of people from even entering and the sport shrinks.
Right on Ryan!
I don't think NOT shutting down the leaderboard is necessary, BUT the formal appeals process should not start until the leaderboard is opened, and all anglers should get a push notification that the leaderboard is back up. So everyone knows, the leaderboard goes back online an hour after the event, then for 24 hours, anglers can pour over and review the results and photos and issue any formal challenges. But that timeline and process needs to be formalized. That goes to the "inconvenient" timing issue, and erases that. You can't have a TD say "you have 24 hours from the end of the event", and then not open up the leaderboard till the next morning leaving no time for people to look at it.
As a long time, full time police officer in a larger city i would highly advise to not waste time and money on using a polygraph. It costs a lot of money and is very subjective. It isn't even admissible in court. There are far too many variables between the polygraphers and the person being interviewed.
Good feedback
Lots of tells but i think biggest 1s for me is red around mouth that tear drop spot fin contour and that fade line/strip that runs directly down body
I hear ya there
I’m so glad I run GoPro I would just hand them my SD cards and tell them to check the footage maybe that’s a answer for the bigger tournaments
I know that's what I do
💯 same fish
Even twins have different fingerprints- and fingerprint analysis has a certain number of points of identity to match people/exclude people. This fish has more points of identity than fingerprint analysis requires.
Wild right?
In live chat i said it wasnt same but i only seen oic for like 2 seconds before it cut but after looking at it its 100 percent same fish thats horrible bro sry it went down like that must have been for a unseen reason.
Right on Brother
I don't like the way KBN handled this in their podcast. I appreciate the complete story from Ryan and the space for it by Wendell. Ryan dq'd his own fish for being a duplicate. Would be nice for KBN to bring that up.
Very unfortunate that Hobie took that stance and hasn't been transparent with the appeal process. This is one reason I have not started fishing tournaments. I would never do a monthly. Way too easy for people to cheat. My mind doesn't work that way, so i am always shocked when I hear about it.
Ryan seems to be doing this for the right reason.
How did KBN handle it?
@wendellfishing they did not cast Ryan in a good light. Also, they did not put forward all the facts as presented on your show.
Appreciate it.. thanks
Thats wild and a wild answer… they gotta do better. Even if they said you right but its too late that woulda been better
It is a bit bizarre
Hobie is doing a great injustice to the kayak tournament industry and community if they do not rectify this matter. Confidence is waning every hour.
I think there is a 0% chance that they will ever change this ruling.
Originally I thought it was same fish because of light spot but the head shape was slightly different…made me double take
Is Ryan suggesting that the fish was caught, photographed, not released, and then photographed again? Or CFR then caught a second time?
I don't believe anyone is thinking there is foul play. Just the same fish caught in the same tourney.
Seems you got screwed, but you handled it like a pro. Hopefully AI will be judging fish soon!
Looking forward to AI being a factor in this myself.
End result was nothing changed with the outcome? Ryan’s appeal caused the BOS trail to end lol My point behind saying this is by “No comment” from Hobie opens up all kinds of conjectures and ultimately a loss of confidence in the judging process and the appeal process. Huge mistake by HobieCat.
Waiting
Hobie doesn't want it to come to light. They have been dealing with quality issues for years. Everyone I know that has purchased a PA 360 is now on their 2nd sometimes 3rd hull. Hobie is in the middle of releasing their new flag ship kayak. My guess is they don't want to have bad publicity at the peak sales time. Sorry this happened Ryan.
Good feedback brother
It’s gonna come to everything is going to have to be recorded at all times.
Getting close
@@wendellfishingafter seeing that guy give back almost 100k in that one bass tournament bc he had fish in nets this is the only way.
@@nelhead4807 "GIVE back"? After he was caught cheating? It wasn't his money to give-he stole it.
@@cuivre2004 yeah that’s true wrong way of saying that.
I will need proof and examples of two separate fish having the same scale chromophore patterns (and the same length) to believe what these biologists are saying. I need for them to prove their thesis. BTW- I have three degrees in biology myself (Research 1 Universities-not Community Colleges).
I tried to get an explanation but they declined... but I do know this... the odds of two identical fish with matching scale patterns surviving from the same hatch-where only 1 in 1,000 fry typically reach adulthood-are astronomical. On top of that, some of distinguishing marks clearly were the result of damage caused by a predator. For these fish to have been attacked by the same predator in the exact same way, survived, have the same scars, grown to 19 inches, and been caught on the same day by the same angler defies all logic.
@@wendellfishing I agree. Hobie tried the old "appeal to (an anonymous) authority" fallacy. I do not accept those types of arguments and I do not disregard my own common sense and experience. How many times have politicians used the "16 experts all agree....." argument? Sorry- it has been proven to be a ridiculous tactic too many times.
I understand Ryan argument and believe he's an honor man. However, he is questioning the other fisherman, and that is a problem for me .. I think the judgment should stand..
Oh, I don’t believe Hobie plans to make any changes, and Ryan clarified that wasn’t his purpose for coming on. However, the entire appeal process inherently suggests you believe another angler made an error.
FFS on a kayak
😂
What a joke
How come?
@ kinda beats the purpose of going to a kayak, imo of course
@@tonyb-50 Depends on how you like to fish I guess, These guys are fishing for money so it makes sense. For most.. likely doesn't.. but I get your point.
I don’t think it should be used for tournaments at all. It’s a great learning tool but that’s as far as it should go.
@@nelhead4807 I believe that eventually..... it will get there