This difference is incredibly insightful. Knowing that sexual trauma can occur without sexual abuse is truly life changing. Thank you! That said, I want to make two points that I think could be explained better, especially in reference to the me too movement. First, sexual fawning can be a physiological and emotional form of harm reduction during sexual assault. Second, I would encourage you to clearly convey that sexual abuse does not always entail physical aggression. Many me too cases were/are about sexual extortion and harassment, including quid pro quo harassment, which is sexual abuse. This occurs for example when an employer or authority figure conditions employment benefits or other opportunities on someone’s willingness to grant unwelcome sexual favors. In this case, the “consent” to sexual acts is more than fawning. I’d argue, that whenever there is a power imbalance between two individuals, or when there is threat or coercion, we need to be super careful about framing this as fawning. This is very different from a situation where someone instinctively fawns to secure or preserve attachment. It’s a very fine line because many people agree to sex under real or perceived threat that they may lose their children, property, career, etc. if they refuse.
I remember always crying after being with my ex in the last few months of our relationship. Cause I knew I didn't want to be with them anymore but I couldn't end things and they thought sex could make us feel closer again and I wasn't able to disagree even if I wanted to. Now thanks to this video I realize what was happening, thank you ❤
Thank u so much for all of this, Luis! i’ve been feeling a lot of shame the past yr after recognizing that this is a pattern i have & it’s been impacting my in so many other areas of my life. i’ve been struggling a lot w/ disrupting/discontinuing this trauma response so i’m looking fwd to watching ur other videos on this. also i appreciate u ending w/ a practice as well, knowing this is very activating that said, i do think there is an important factor here to consider-id love to hear u speak on (or possibly even have an afab guest to speak) more on this topic around the ways in which our social conditioning / toxic hypermasculine patriarchal oppression has caused & perpetuates this trauma response in ppl of all genders (i’m an afab enby btw) sex education in general is terrible *if ppl even get access to it at all + a lot of woman & femmes are not taught that they have agency or autonomy over their bodies-literally even before the moment were born. we see it reflected thru many areas of life including policy. many ppl are taught thru numerous societal norms that sex is only for procreation or for a man’s pleasure so in my opinion there’s often already an inherent power imbalance based on gender norms/oppression. would love to hear urs or others’ thoughts. is this something covered in ur existing webinar?
I happened upon this video and I just had no idea that I was doing this until you really spelled it out. I’ve had so many troubling situations with this and especially in my marriage and it became so problematic but at the same time I couldn’t really pinpoint what was happening for me. This clears so much up and I realized through therapy that I had been abandoning myself in so many ways in order to appease someone due to emotional and verbal abuse but I couldn’t fully understand when it came to the sexual side of the relationship. I’m divorced and hoping to one day try to have another relationship and certainly something I need to learn more about how to manage moving forward. Thank you!
Luis, this is such an important subject, and a very important distinction between the 2! I haven't heard many others explain this in the way you have. Neither one is "our fault", and they both cause sexual trauma, but they are not both aggressive acts. One is a crime, the other is a maladaptive coping mechanism. What you explained here helped me immensely to understand myself better, and to put some past experiences into context and perspective.
Very important topic. Thank you!! I feel this can work for the narcissist theme. Some are, yes. Small percentage. They normally grew up where boundaries were crossed and its a survival mechanism. Our own awareness of our patterns is key. Self responsibility and kindness as we all heal generational trauma ✨️ 🌹
Thank you so much for the video. I would love to hear what you have to say about the influence of culture and social norms around this topic, especially on sexualisation, entitlement and the desire to want to feel "normal" in the context of our society
This is SO important. I've been working in this field for 10 years and have never heard anyone speak of this distinction. It's truly illuminating. Depe bows, thank you!!!
Could you maybe talk about the difference between sexual fawning and sex blues? When do you think crying afterwards is just physiological and when is it a sign that fawning was occurring?
@laylasummernights9841 I am very curious about this! I would also like to add that with my current partner (now together for 11 years) I frequently cried after sex when we were first together. I couldn't understand why. I now realize I was emotional because it was the first time I felt safe and truly respected during intercourse. I believe my body was crying about my previous experience now that it has true safety and comfort and understood what safe, mutually respectful sex is.
Thank you for sharing this! I would love to hear your thoughts on how this plays out in the criminal court system - some people being criminally charged and confused/shocked by that because they received 'consent', and victims feeling like their experience is not validated and therfore creating more trauma if there's an acquittal
Oh absolutely. The lack of this knowledge in the court system affects both parties because one is being labeled and convicted as an abusive criminal and the other may not be taken seriously because they said yes and the courts, and most people, believe that to be consent but it's not in the case of fawning.
This is a good differentiation, but how do we classify cases where the other partner has basically encouraged you to fawn via intimidation and threats but not physically assaulted you, crossing into SA? I'm disabled and was reliant solely on my husband for medical care (I have a a rare disease with expensive medications and cannot work). When our marriage became turbulent, he said to me, "If I feel like this is failing and it ends, your medical care ends too.". And so, terrified and having nowhere else to go, I did all kinds of fawning (including sexual) as well as numbing behaviors to make him feel satisfied in the relationship so I got medical treatment that allowed me to function in society. We did openly address issues, but if the outcome wasn't to his liking, suddenly my caregiving was jeopardized. This included all facets of the marriage. He rewarded me with better caregiving when I went along with what he wanted, and conveniently forgot or used weaponized incompetence in my caregiving when he didn't get his way. He would make sure to point out to me, "Wow, I'm much more willing to caregive you when we have a good time (sexually)." Unlike some of the examples you mentioned where the other partner lacks awareness of the other or there is miscommunication from both parties, I think he knew. If he sensed I fawned, he would rage and shutdown, which affected the caregiving. One of his favorite sayings when we were in conflict was, "You have a choice. I'm not making you do anything. Just be responsible for the choices you make.". I called numerous DA shelters and begged therapists for help, but nobody saw this as abusive. I still don't think it was SA, but I also don't think it was the type of fawning I've heard other people talk about. I never felt confused or conflicted about my own motives once the threats began. I never wanted or enjoyed it and wanted to get away. I felt more like I was an actor. It felt like a terrifying hostage situation that socially and legally has no recourse because of the disability aspect. Where is the line in this type of situation? I like the definitions being more carefully delineated, but I would love the mental health and legal community to continue to do so even further.
Thanks for this. I would see this as two things: fawning in response to an abuse of power. For example, your husband could say "this isn't working" without the condition of sex being involved. He could even leave you if he's unhappy - that's his right. But to hold the sex as the condition, for me, is an abuse of power. AND...you still fawned which doesn't make you wrong (I would have too) so it's about holding both. Holding what's behind your fawning. If you didn't have the condition and need for care would you want to be with this man? Connecting to that place and the boundaries that the fawning bypasses gives you the power again.
ty for sharing ur experience @sideta1. i’m sorry u had to experience that & i hope u get the care & healing u need. luis would u consider this manipulation, abuse &/or coercion?
I would love to hear your thoughts on the neo tantra community. It's becoming popular to have big experiences of touch with many people. Is it possible to not enter fawning states in spaces where open intimacy and touch is expected with everyone?
open intimacy and touch should not be expected with everyone or anyone in tantra community. Tantra is first about presence, deep listening, truth, ownership and responsibilty. Intimacy and touch with yourself and with Life. shared intimacy with others that are present and connected to themselves in this shared willingness and energetic field, can involve phisical touch and sexuality, or not at all. I struggle a lot with fawning as a way to belong, and not being judged or shamed. but i think it's possible to not fawn and tantra can guide you. practicing deep listening, integrity and deep acceptance of what you are, what there's in the now. Shame, breath, tears, numbness, joy, shiver, love, pleasure, grief, jelously, delight. Sorry for my "english" ahah
Very helpful here! One angle that I don't hear much about is one person behaving as a highly sexual person but has no intention of actually having sex with the person they direct their erotic energies towards. Then the other person fawning in the hopes of that person changing their mind, which doesn't happen. Does that make sense? Example: in a "sexless marriage" one person saying of course they will have sex but never "having the time for it" or avoiding it and the other person in major fawning mode to attempt get sexual attention.
I've heard of this and seen this with people I've known. It's a weird power differential thing. I've seen women dangle potential sexual access in front of men in order to get the men to fawn and give the woman other things she needs, but she withholds the access. In men, I've seen them dangle commitment in front of a woman like this in order to get her to have a sexual fawning response even though he has no intention of committing or emotional attachment.
Is it fair to say that full consent cannot be reached without both people being properly attuned to each other? How can you know if someone is not a 100% hell yes if you aren't attuned to something that might be off about their consent. Also, this brings up a lot of thoughts for me about conditioning and society at large, especially in terms of gender roles. In my estimation, the patriarchy and patriarchs are perfectly happy with their fawning tradwives, as long as the men are the ones who get to remain in the position of dominance. Attuning to their partners seems thoroughly irrelevant to their larger agenda.
If you're an adult, and you sexually fawn, it may not be your 'fault', but it is YOUR responsibility. If you don't use your words & communicate clearly, it's on YOU. It's okay to regret doing anything, but your feelings of sexual regret don't mean you've been victimized or that the other party has necessarily wronged you. You are not entitled to have anyone read your mind.
Agreed. I don't blame or shame someone who fawns sexually, yet it is our responsibility to notice it and transform out of it. We cannot expect the people we fawn to, especially those who are disconnected or abusive, to call us out of our fawning.
If you fawn when somebody "reads" you wrong and then continues to assault you, it's the responsibility of the person assaulting you. People don't have to use words to say that they don't want to but if the other person is interested in having sex, they have the responsibility to ask and - not just guess based on their biased view about the other persons body language.
![[Ep. 162] Navigating Anger & Rage](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/iEwKgKDGEio/mqdefault.jpg)
This difference is incredibly insightful. Knowing that sexual trauma can occur without sexual abuse is truly life changing. Thank you!
That said, I want to make two points that I think could be explained better, especially in reference to the me too movement. First, sexual fawning can be a physiological and emotional form of harm reduction during sexual assault. Second, I would encourage you to clearly convey that sexual abuse does not always entail physical aggression. Many me too cases were/are about sexual extortion and harassment, including quid pro quo harassment, which is sexual abuse. This occurs for example when an employer or authority figure conditions employment benefits or other opportunities on someone’s willingness to grant unwelcome sexual favors. In this case, the “consent” to sexual acts is more than fawning. I’d argue, that whenever there is a power imbalance between two individuals, or when there is threat or coercion, we need to be super careful about framing this as fawning. This is very different from a situation where someone instinctively fawns to secure or preserve attachment. It’s a very fine line because many people agree to sex under real or perceived threat that they may lose their children, property, career, etc. if they refuse.
I may expand on this more in my next video. Thanks for the input.
@@rudnickap this is a very good point, thanks for bringing it up! 👍
I remember always crying after being with my ex in the last few months of our relationship. Cause I knew I didn't want to be with them anymore but I couldn't end things and they thought sex could make us feel closer again and I wasn't able to disagree even if I wanted to. Now thanks to this video I realize what was happening, thank you ❤
Thank u so much for all of this, Luis! i’ve been feeling a lot of shame the past yr after recognizing that this is a pattern i have & it’s been impacting my in so many other areas of my life. i’ve been struggling a lot w/ disrupting/discontinuing this trauma response so i’m looking fwd to watching ur other videos on this. also i appreciate u ending w/ a practice as well, knowing this is very activating
that said, i do think there is an important factor here to consider-id love to hear u speak on (or possibly even have an afab guest to speak) more on this topic around the ways in which our social conditioning / toxic hypermasculine patriarchal oppression has caused & perpetuates this trauma response in ppl of all genders (i’m an afab enby btw)
sex education in general is terrible *if ppl even get access to it at all + a lot of woman & femmes are not taught that they have agency or autonomy over their bodies-literally even before the moment were born. we see it reflected thru many areas of life including policy. many ppl are taught thru numerous societal norms that sex is only for procreation or for a man’s pleasure so in my opinion there’s often already an inherent power imbalance based on gender norms/oppression. would love to hear urs or others’ thoughts.
is this something covered in ur existing webinar?
I happened upon this video and I just had no idea that I was doing this until you really spelled it out. I’ve had so many troubling situations with this and especially in my marriage and it became so problematic but at the same time I couldn’t really pinpoint what was happening for me. This clears so much up and I realized through therapy that I had been abandoning myself in so many ways in order to appease someone due to emotional and verbal abuse but I couldn’t fully understand when it came to the sexual side of the relationship. I’m divorced and hoping to one day try to have another relationship and certainly something I need to learn more about how to manage moving forward. Thank you!
Luis, this is such an important subject, and a very important distinction between the 2! I haven't heard many others explain this in the way you have. Neither one is "our fault", and they both cause sexual trauma, but they are not both aggressive acts. One is a crime, the other is a maladaptive coping mechanism.
What you explained here helped me immensely to understand myself better, and to put some past experiences into context and perspective.
when we don't have secure attachment, attachment wins over authenticity
Very important topic. Thank you!!
I feel this can work for the narcissist theme.
Some are, yes. Small percentage.
They normally grew up where boundaries were crossed and its a survival mechanism. Our own awareness of our patterns is key. Self responsibility and kindness as we all heal generational trauma ✨️ 🌹
Well put.
@holisticlifenavigation thank you, Luis 😻✨️
Thank you so much for the video. I would love to hear what you have to say about the influence of culture and social norms around this topic, especially on sexualisation, entitlement and the desire to want to feel "normal" in the context of our society
So incredibly helpful, thank you 🙏
This is SO important. I've been working in this field for 10 years and have never heard anyone speak of this distinction. It's truly illuminating. Depe bows, thank you!!!
wow super enlightening
Thank you so much, you explain this topic so well and profoundly🙏🏻💗very validating and useful
Could you maybe talk about the difference between sexual fawning and sex blues? When do you think crying afterwards is just physiological and when is it a sign that fawning was occurring?
Interesting question - can you send me a link about "sex blues"? I'd love to read about it more before commenting.
@laylasummernights9841 I am very curious about this! I would also like to add that with my current partner (now together for 11 years) I frequently cried after sex when we were first together. I couldn't understand why. I now realize I was emotional because it was the first time I felt safe and truly respected during intercourse. I believe my body was crying about my previous experience now that it has true safety and comfort and understood what safe, mutually respectful sex is.
Thank you for sharing this! I would love to hear your thoughts on how this plays out in the criminal court system - some people being criminally charged and confused/shocked by that because they received 'consent', and victims feeling like their experience is not validated and therfore creating more trauma if there's an acquittal
Oh absolutely. The lack of this knowledge in the court system affects both parties because one is being labeled and convicted as an abusive criminal and the other may not be taken seriously because they said yes and the courts, and most people, believe that to be consent but it's not in the case of fawning.
Much needed wisdom
This is a good differentiation, but how do we classify cases where the other partner has basically encouraged you to fawn via intimidation and threats but not physically assaulted you, crossing into SA?
I'm disabled and was reliant solely on my husband for medical care (I have a a rare disease with expensive medications and cannot work). When our marriage became turbulent, he said to me, "If I feel like this is failing and it ends, your medical care ends too.". And so, terrified and having nowhere else to go, I did all kinds of fawning (including sexual) as well as numbing behaviors to make him feel satisfied in the relationship so I got medical treatment that allowed me to function in society.
We did openly address issues, but if the outcome wasn't to his liking, suddenly my caregiving was jeopardized. This included all facets of the marriage. He rewarded me with better caregiving when I went along with what he wanted, and conveniently forgot or used weaponized incompetence in my caregiving when he didn't get his way. He would make sure to point out to me, "Wow, I'm much more willing to caregive you when we have a good time (sexually)."
Unlike some of the examples you mentioned where the other partner lacks awareness of the other or there is miscommunication from both parties, I think he knew. If he sensed I fawned, he would rage and shutdown, which affected the caregiving. One of his favorite sayings when we were in conflict was, "You have a choice. I'm not making you do anything. Just be responsible for the choices you make.".
I called numerous DA shelters and begged therapists for help, but nobody saw this as abusive. I still don't think it was SA, but I also don't think it was the type of fawning I've heard other people talk about. I never felt confused or conflicted about my own motives once the threats began. I never wanted or enjoyed it and wanted to get away. I felt more like I was an actor.
It felt like a terrifying hostage situation that socially and legally has no recourse because of the disability aspect.
Where is the line in this type of situation? I like the definitions being more carefully delineated, but I would love the mental health and legal community to continue to do so even further.
Thanks for this. I would see this as two things: fawning in response to an abuse of power. For example, your husband could say "this isn't working" without the condition of sex being involved. He could even leave you if he's unhappy - that's his right. But to hold the sex as the condition, for me, is an abuse of power. AND...you still fawned which doesn't make you wrong (I would have too) so it's about holding both. Holding what's behind your fawning. If you didn't have the condition and need for care would you want to be with this man? Connecting to that place and the boundaries that the fawning bypasses gives you the power again.
ty for sharing ur experience @sideta1. i’m sorry u had to experience that & i hope u get the care & healing u need.
luis would u consider this manipulation, abuse &/or coercion?
Your insight continuously frees me up, one baby step at a time, and sometimes one huge leap at a time. ❤ So intricate, so wise.🪷
I would love to hear your thoughts on the neo tantra community. It's becoming popular to have big experiences of touch with many people. Is it possible to not enter fawning states in spaces where open intimacy and touch is expected with everyone?
Will do!
open intimacy and touch should not be expected with everyone or anyone in tantra community.
Tantra is first about presence, deep listening, truth, ownership and responsibilty.
Intimacy and touch with yourself and with Life.
shared intimacy with others that are present and connected to themselves in this shared willingness and energetic field, can involve phisical touch and sexuality, or not at all.
I struggle a lot with fawning as a way to belong, and not being judged or shamed.
but i think it's possible to not fawn and tantra can guide you. practicing deep listening, integrity and deep acceptance of what you are, what there's in the now.
Shame, breath, tears, numbness, joy, shiver, love, pleasure, grief, jelously, delight. Sorry for my "english" ahah
Absolutely!!!
Men need to learn that consent is super sacred & know when it truly is consent & stop trying win women over by offering security, $, gifts, etc..
Agreed - and I think all people need to learn the difference between a body yes and a mind yes.
Very helpful here!
One angle that I don't hear much about is one person behaving as a highly sexual person but has no intention of actually having sex with the person they direct their erotic energies towards. Then the other person fawning in the hopes of that person changing their mind, which doesn't happen. Does that make sense? Example: in a "sexless marriage" one person saying of course they will have sex but never "having the time for it" or avoiding it and the other person in major fawning mode to attempt get sexual attention.
I've heard of this and seen this with people I've known. It's a weird power differential thing. I've seen women dangle potential sexual access in front of men in order to get the men to fawn and give the woman other things she needs, but she withholds the access. In men, I've seen them dangle commitment in front of a woman like this in order to get her to have a sexual fawning response even though he has no intention of committing or emotional attachment.
Absolutely.
Well, someone can psychologically manipulate a person that there are all these promises if they give it up.. so they can be blamed for manipulation
Is it fair to say that full consent cannot be reached without both people being properly attuned to each other? How can you know if someone is not a 100% hell yes if you aren't attuned to something that might be off about their consent.
Also, this brings up a lot of thoughts for me about conditioning and society at large, especially in terms of gender roles. In my estimation, the patriarchy and patriarchs are perfectly happy with their fawning tradwives, as long as the men are the ones who get to remain in the position of dominance. Attuning to their partners seems thoroughly irrelevant to their larger agenda.
If you're an adult, and you sexually fawn, it may not be your 'fault', but it is YOUR responsibility. If you don't use your words & communicate clearly, it's on YOU. It's okay to regret doing anything, but your feelings of sexual regret don't mean you've been victimized or that the other party has necessarily wronged you. You are not entitled to have anyone read your mind.
Agreed. I don't blame or shame someone who fawns sexually, yet it is our responsibility to notice it and transform out of it. We cannot expect the people we fawn to, especially those who are disconnected or abusive, to call us out of our fawning.
If you fawn when somebody "reads" you wrong and then continues to assault you, it's the responsibility of the person assaulting you. People don't have to use words to say that they don't want to but if the other person is interested in having sex, they have the responsibility to ask and - not just guess based on their biased view about the other persons body language.
This is all so complex - how does society educate children to be sensitive to others and respectful to them?